Speaker 1: Enjoy these back to back classic Forbidden Knowledge News episodes. Today,
Speaker 1: I want to welcome back to the show, Frank Jacob.
Speaker 1: He's an award winning international filmmaker, visual artists, director, and composer.
Speaker 1: He has explored many aspects of the Secret Space Program, consciousness,
Speaker 1: and energy through his films. Frank, welcome back. How are
Speaker 1: you doing.
Speaker 2: Nice to have a nice to be back. Thanks a lot,
Speaker 2: good to see you.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's great to see you. Like I was talking
Speaker 1: to you before, it's been I think almost two years
Speaker 1: since you've been on. We live in a really different world,
Speaker 1: a really different reality than we last spoke up. Is down,
Speaker 1: black is white, masks, save lives, sciences, religion, and that
Speaker 1: really doesn't even begin to describe the dystopian future we're
Speaker 1: really headed towards. Frank, since twenty twenty, tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about how everything has been for you and
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on where we're headed as a society.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess the first thing I would have to
Speaker 2: say about what I sort of witnessed and what we
Speaker 2: all witnessed in twenty twenty was that I don't think
Speaker 2: anybody really saw it coming. I mean, there's been a
Speaker 2: lot of prophecies. There's been a lot of predictions, you know,
Speaker 2: ever since the Harmonic convergence in nineteen eighty seven and
Speaker 2: then you know, nineteen ninety nine and y two k
Speaker 2: there's always been these apocalyptic scenarios that have been talked about,
Speaker 2: but I don't think anyone really imagined things happening quite
Speaker 2: on the scale that they happened just about two years ago,
Speaker 2: where really, in a sense, it became clear to all
Speaker 2: those people who ever doubted that a very small group
Speaker 2: of people could control role the minds and steer society,
Speaker 2: the billions and billions of people in society to the
Speaker 2: level that they've been doing. So. I don't think you
Speaker 2: can really give any more doubt to the idea that
Speaker 2: there is the potential for an elite whatever you want
Speaker 2: to call them, I mean, just call them the Newsmakers then,
Speaker 2: or call them the Faucis and Trumps and Gates of
Speaker 2: the world. But there really can no longer be any
Speaker 2: doubt at all that such people have the power to
Speaker 2: completely lead society around by the nose, and you know,
Speaker 2: just stupefy them and set them into masses of fear
Speaker 2: so that they allow themselves to be controlled to the
Speaker 2: level that we've seen happen in the last year. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just unprecedented that that really globally, you know, I
Speaker 2: think I think there's over one hundred and eighty countries
Speaker 2: in the world, and most of those countries never really
Speaker 2: associate or talk to each other or get together agree
Speaker 2: on things. There's you know, meetings where they get they
Speaker 2: get together for gat treaties and try to make arrangements.
Speaker 2: On climate change is a famous one, a popular one,
Speaker 2: but they never really get it happening. But in this
Speaker 2: one case, you know, and never before a situation, not
Speaker 2: only did they do that, but they did that within
Speaker 2: a record breaking time of probably less than thirty days.
Speaker 2: So you got to hand it to those people that
Speaker 2: have been planning this. They've done really quite an amazing job,
Speaker 2: and they've really proven themselves to be very very powerful
Speaker 2: in that sense. And we the people, although you know,
Speaker 2: the people, the masses of people really have the power
Speaker 2: and give the power to those that are taking it.
Speaker 2: We were still waiting for that one big event that
Speaker 2: will topple it and shift it once and for all
Speaker 2: and lead us into kind of that utopian society everyone's
Speaker 2: always hoping for and dreaming about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, and you hit on a bunch of the
Speaker 1: talking points that I really want to get to tonight.
Speaker 1: First thing is how fear is driving people, and it's
Speaker 1: driving people mad. People that I've known for years and
Speaker 1: thought we're smart and good friends have the only thing
Speaker 1: I can say is turned to the dark side and
Speaker 1: just you know, blindly turned their mind and eyes towards
Speaker 1: facts and science and reality and that you know, just
Speaker 1: going along with what they're hearing on the news and media.
Speaker 1: And like I said, these are people that I thought
Speaker 1: were smart people. There's been a mass campaign and an
Speaker 1: operation to brainwash people, and it's very successful in many ways.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of like a polarizing event. We're seeing
Speaker 1: consciousness is rising on some aspects and then it's it's
Speaker 1: falling in others, and it's tearing people apart. But that's
Speaker 1: also an intentional part of what we're seeing. This division.
Speaker 1: Are you seeing this same thing around people around you
Speaker 1: that you've known for years and you would thought would
Speaker 1: be a little bit smarter than they are, just kind
Speaker 1: of giving into fear and giving into what's going on.
Speaker 2: Well, for the most part, in the last i'd say
Speaker 2: fifteen years, I've pretty much sort of pulled away from
Speaker 2: the types of people that sort of accept that regular
Speaker 2: media narrative that comes out of the box. In fact,
Speaker 2: many of my friends don't even have a television set.
Speaker 2: So but I would have to say that generally, you know,
Speaker 2: there's that you're not immune to it because you know,
Speaker 2: everybody knows somebody who knows somebody, and those people are
Speaker 2: definitely drawing the lines. So I've noticed that what used
Speaker 2: to be a comfortable gray zone, that many of the
Speaker 2: people who are busy trying to operate in the world
Speaker 2: of disclosure and trying to bring information out into the
Speaker 2: world have been safely under this blanket of grays zone,
Speaker 2: been operating under that that's gone. It's it's now just
Speaker 2: you're this way, or you're with us, or you're not
Speaker 2: with us. And unfortunately, the with us group, the dynamic,
Speaker 2: the numbers, the ratio is just astounding because obviously there's
Speaker 2: far far more, far far more people who have have
Speaker 2: adopted the the safe or let's just say herd mentality
Speaker 2: of the majority. Then there are those who are still
Speaker 2: resisting and trying to now not operate in the gray zone,
Speaker 2: but standing their truth out there for everyone to see.
Speaker 2: So you've become you know, people that are really doing
Speaker 2: that risking that are becoming targets like they never were before.
Speaker 2: And so you're seeing a lot of you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of yeah, just like edgy ness in the world,
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, like you could be standing
Speaker 2: in a grocery store and somebody could turn around at
Speaker 2: you and just snark at you like, you know, like
Speaker 2: you're just like that never used to happen, right, So
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff is definitely going on, and it's
Speaker 2: it is true. It's sad to see that that there
Speaker 2: are people that you know, that we have in all
Speaker 2: of us in our circles that for what, for whatever
Speaker 2: reason you know, they have to to do it, have
Speaker 2: had to go their way. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: we're all sort of out and involved in a very
Speaker 2: big experiment. We've entered unchartered territory. And I'm not one
Speaker 2: to be a judge of that. And anyone who's decided
Speaker 2: to go whatever way they've gone, it's their decision. I
Speaker 2: fully respect that because I don't know the answers either.
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of signs and I'm seeing a
Speaker 2: lot of the things that I've been finding in the
Speaker 2: history books that were talked about over one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty years ago now sort of growing fruit or bearing fruits.
Speaker 2: So it's no surprise, but you know, like I said,
Speaker 2: it's like an experiment. So I don't think any of
Speaker 2: us can really be sure to what extent it's gonna go.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure you've heard of a lot of
Speaker 2: these scenarios where people are talking about transhumanism and the
Speaker 2: start of a new society. And of course, you know,
Speaker 2: we have people like Klaus Schwab, you know, with quotes
Speaker 2: out there saying that they needed a pandemic to be
Speaker 2: able to push their agenda finally to the limit that
Speaker 2: they've wanted to push it. But there's always this unknown
Speaker 2: factor of the human spirit which nobody can really put
Speaker 2: a finger on. And as much as we'd like to
Speaker 2: think ourselves as flesh and bone, blood bodies, there is
Speaker 2: an aspect of ourselves we're learning about more and more
Speaker 2: that seems to indicate we aren't physical bodies, but actually
Speaker 2: we sort of exist outside of physicality. So you know,
Speaker 2: I think there's a few surprises in store still for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would, I would hope so, because I think
Speaker 1: we're entering the most critical time in our modern history,
Speaker 1: at least what we're gonna witness in our lives. And
Speaker 1: we've already reached a point to where there's no turning around.
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if there is even any middle ground
Speaker 1: that people can take anymore. You know, are they're probably
Speaker 1: gonna have to take a side eventually, you know, you
Speaker 1: won't be able to just stand by and watch both
Speaker 1: sides do get out. I don't know, what do you
Speaker 1: think you think there is any way to take any
Speaker 1: middle ground at this point?
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think you have to
Speaker 2: be able to stand your ground, and I think you
Speaker 2: have to be prepared to go to the distance whatever
Speaker 2: that means. I mean, it's for me not inconceivable that
Speaker 2: they would start erecting you know, green zones or safe
Speaker 2: zones or yellow zones or whatever they're gonna call them.
Speaker 2: But you're gonna they're gonna set up these areas. They're
Speaker 2: gonna say, okay, well, those people who are not gonna,
Speaker 2: you know, comply with us, you know, they're probably gonna
Speaker 2: have to go in those zones and because you know,
Speaker 2: they're a danger, and and that's going to be critical
Speaker 2: for a lot of people. I think the people that
Speaker 2: are going to be the hardest hit of the people
Speaker 2: that have worked and saved and earned and try to
Speaker 2: put something aside or raised families or built everything up
Speaker 2: to a certain point they're going to have and that
Speaker 2: might lose that that's going to be probably the most
Speaker 2: critical point for those people. And it'll really drive home that,
Speaker 2: you know that that's sort of famous saying be in
Speaker 2: the world, but not of the world, you know, and
Speaker 2: if you've been of the world to it'll show to
Speaker 2: the extent that you're of the world. I think will
Speaker 2: be the measure of pain that you're going to have
Speaker 2: to go through to stand your ground, and if that
Speaker 2: means you have to lose everything, then it'll be the
Speaker 2: real test of whether you are or not. And I
Speaker 2: think that's when we're going to really see a lot
Speaker 2: of that activity that's going to we're not even you know,
Speaker 2: seeing the fringes of where it could really go to
Speaker 2: at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And a really important
Speaker 1: as to understand is how much of our history and
Speaker 1: the history of operations that we're seeing right now, operations
Speaker 1: like that, how often those have occurred, and how false
Speaker 1: The history we've been told through our history books in
Speaker 1: academia really is major events in history, I feel we're
Speaker 1: mostly planned, especially when you look at the major events
Speaker 1: that change the course of history, say, for example jfk
Speaker 1: assassination nine to eleven. I believe that major events like
Speaker 1: that that we that got into the populace's consciousness in
Speaker 1: a way that changed everything, had a level of planning
Speaker 1: to them. They were planned to change the course of society.
Speaker 1: False flags, even major TV events putting people in certain
Speaker 1: positions of power. All these things were kind of like
Speaker 1: culture creation tools to change the course and kind of
Speaker 1: build upon what these people in charge, these elites want
Speaker 1: to be their paradise. Is that something you'd agree with?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that that's pretty much. That's pretty
Speaker 2: much where it's going. It's interesting. There are some quotes
Speaker 2: something I read again recently the other day, even Franklin D.
Speaker 2: Roosevelt said, nothing in politics happens by accident. If anything
Speaker 2: you see happening out there is going on, you can
Speaker 2: be sure in politics that it's been long in the planning.
Speaker 2: So and he would be one to know, because he
Speaker 2: was very much involved in the planning of the Second
Speaker 2: World War. So you know, this is another part of
Speaker 2: history which is going to eventually become you know, going
Speaker 2: to get flushed out, and it's going to come out
Speaker 2: in the open. You know. We're starting to see, you know,
Speaker 2: the bits of truth coming out about things like Pearl Harbor,
Speaker 2: but the extent to which Roosevelt was involved in planning
Speaker 2: the destruction of the world really in the Second World
Speaker 2: War is yet to come to the surface. But I
Speaker 2: think that's the good thing about what we're going through,
Speaker 2: because we're going to see a great kind of a
Speaker 2: period where the truth is going to emerge, and it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter how much the elites have tried to suppress
Speaker 2: that truth and stamp it underground. The truth is kind
Speaker 2: of like weeds. You know that weeds are kind of
Speaker 2: nasty for those people who ever tried to have a
Speaker 2: green garden or a green lawn. You know that the
Speaker 2: weeds will continue to come up, and the truth is
Speaker 2: like weeds, you know. And I think a lot of
Speaker 2: the insiders that were never really you know, part of
Speaker 2: the planner groups who are having second thoughts would start
Speaker 2: come start to come forward. And we've seen that in
Speaker 2: the past already, and we're seeing it now even more.
Speaker 2: I think there's going to be events where someone is
Speaker 2: going to come forward, and I'm sure you've read a
Speaker 2: lot recently and seed a lot where there's you know,
Speaker 2: even people that were part of the career of vaccines
Speaker 2: or a part of the creation of plannings in the world,
Speaker 2: like old Global Planning CDC and things like that are
Speaker 2: coming forward because they've had enough. You know. It's interesting.
Speaker 2: There's a quote from Churchill in nineteen sixty that said
Speaker 2: Germany's unforgivable crime before World War Two was its attempt
Speaker 2: to loosen its economy out of the world trade system
Speaker 2: and to build up an independent exchange system from which
Speaker 2: the World Finance couldn't profit anymore. We butchered the wrong pig.
Speaker 2: And that's amazing coming for someone like Churchill, because he
Speaker 2: was really like one of the most vindictive actors in
Speaker 2: the Second World War. And without Churchill, I'd say it's
Speaker 2: safe to say we never would have had the destruction
Speaker 2: in the war that we ever did. And in fact,
Speaker 2: it's easy to pint it all in germans and on Hitler,
Speaker 2: but everything that I've been learning in the history books
Speaker 2: over here in Germany indicate quite the opposite was going on,
Speaker 2: that perhaps Germany was one of the last resistances to
Speaker 2: this sort of force of evil that has now reached
Speaker 2: its zenith, and they've managed to turn the history books
Speaker 2: in their favor and all, you know, and put out
Speaker 2: the headlines and the films and all that to try
Speaker 2: and you know, put their story out there. But like
Speaker 2: I was saying to you earlier, what we're seeing with
Speaker 2: COVID is that, you know, there is a possibility that
Speaker 2: a small group of people in control of politics and
Speaker 2: the media, global elites with powerful resources and financial resources,
Speaker 2: can actually change the world narrative and send us off
Speaker 2: on a new timeline unbeknownst to society, because most people
Speaker 2: never really even believe this stuff would happen. They would
Speaker 2: never believe in the wildest dreams, because we all just
Speaker 2: want peace, happiness, prosperity, and you know, I don't think
Speaker 2: anyone wants war with any other nation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And being in the position I
Speaker 1: am to have so many wonderful guests like yourself and
Speaker 1: real historians that have talked about, just like you said,
Speaker 1: world War two and events surrounding, and man, it is
Speaker 1: not like anything that we've learned, you know, you've learned
Speaker 1: in the United States history books or from modern academia,
Speaker 1: and you're right, a lot of aspects show that, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like we're told. Things may have been completely opposite.
Speaker 1: Germany may have been a resistance against some of the
Speaker 1: tyranny that we're seeing right now, but it was kind
Speaker 1: of turned around. I'm not saying at all that Hitler
Speaker 1: was a good guy or anything like that. I have
Speaker 1: no idea, but either way, I'm sure he wasn't you know,
Speaker 1: nobody in that position power usually is. But he may
Speaker 1: not been of what exactly he was portrayed to be.
Speaker 1: And that's the whole point about our hidden history is
Speaker 1: we don't know and everything that we've learned, the more
Speaker 1: you look into it, the more false and tweaked it's become.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, exactly, and that's it, I mean, and that's
Speaker 2: a very dangerous one. People really have a great fear
Speaker 2: of the whole Hitler regime and the NAS and Germany,
Speaker 2: and to discuss it in terms of like adults, like hey,
Speaker 2: let's look at that scenario is very frightening for many people.
Speaker 2: I mean, look at how afraid they are of a
Speaker 2: little you know, particle that that's supposedly lurking behind every corner.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's always the hidden boogey man.
Speaker 2: But it's yeah, that's it. And the thing is the
Speaker 2: problem is that people don't they don't understand the history.
Speaker 2: They don't understand what led up to Hitler's rise in
Speaker 2: the first place. They don't know that, they don't know
Speaker 2: the previous thirty years, so they don't understand, you know,
Speaker 2: that there was possible, that there was a resistance for us,
Speaker 2: and that that resistance, like there's a film called I
Speaker 2: don't know if you know what, it's called Braveheart and
Speaker 2: with mel Gibson, you know, and it's it's in a
Speaker 2: way that's kind of the story of Germany and Hitler,
Speaker 2: and Hitler went around to raise the awareness of the people,
Speaker 2: and he was so popular that it was like, you know,
Speaker 2: you look at the pictures of him out there, he
Speaker 2: didn't have any glass around on his car. You know,
Speaker 2: they could have pecked him off at any time. He
Speaker 2: was just really like and this is something they will
Speaker 2: never portray in those in those films and newspaper headlines.
Speaker 2: And I've been able to dig it up and I'm
Speaker 2: fortunate enough to get to know some people that are
Speaker 2: still living, that are in their nineties that actually personally
Speaker 2: we're there and and it's believe me, Chris, it's a
Speaker 2: completely different story. So but you know, but you don't
Speaker 2: have to go that way, because go that way, and
Speaker 2: we don't have to go deep into it here because
Speaker 2: I think, like I said, you know, it's going to
Speaker 2: freak a lot of people out from.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, a lot.
Speaker 1: I agree, a lot of people aren't ready. But I
Speaker 1: know exactly where you know some of these facts that
Speaker 1: you're probably going to go into. And it's shocking how
Speaker 1: different history has been twisted. And it's not only World
Speaker 1: War Two, it's it's everything. It's you know, the deeper
Speaker 1: you look in anything that's really important about our history
Speaker 1: and those in power. And you know, the saying the
Speaker 1: victor writes rewrites history, it's true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we have you know, we don't have to
Speaker 2: even look at the last I mean, for me, it's
Speaker 2: been interesting because I've moved over here and I've began
Speaker 2: to look at that because I'm right there in the
Speaker 2: backyard of it. But that's only the recent history, the
Speaker 2: last one hundred years. But if you go back much further,
Speaker 2: of course, you can see, you know that there's been
Speaker 2: this seed of distortion that has prevailed in cycles all
Speaker 2: through thousands and thousands of years. And another interesting aspect
Speaker 2: to it that I've become aware of is, you know,
Speaker 2: we've been working with ever since we did Solo Revolution,
Speaker 2: we've been working very frequently with the German biophysicist Teter Brewers,
Speaker 2: and he has been sharing a lot of interesting information
Speaker 2: about the rise and fall of civilizations relative to the
Speaker 2: forces of the cosmos. Because he's a microbio he's a biophysicist,
Speaker 2: so he studies it from biology and and kind of
Speaker 2: like it, looks at the physics of it, the quantum,
Speaker 2: and looks at models of quantum physics, and looks at
Speaker 2: sun cycles for example. And it's very interesting to see
Speaker 2: the cycles of sun and the cycles of the cosmos
Speaker 2: related to cosmic radiation and how it has a direct
Speaker 2: parallel to the rise and then the total fall of civilizations.
Speaker 2: So there's another aspect playing into it as well. It's
Speaker 2: not just that there's this group of evil people out there.
Speaker 2: You could say that these elitists that are up there
Speaker 2: are just the ones, the first ones to be affected
Speaker 2: by the desire to have this this negative aspect of control.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's nothing wrong with control. You know, every
Speaker 2: athlete has to have control of their body if they
Speaker 2: want to do the best that they possibly can. And
Speaker 2: every chess player has to have control of their mind
Speaker 2: and control of their thoughts. And these things are not
Speaker 2: bad in themselves, just like money is not bad in itself.
Speaker 2: It's it's the use of money to enslave people. It's
Speaker 2: the use of information to be able to control others,
Speaker 2: to have power over others. That's the problem. And that
Speaker 2: seems to be something that we as a race and
Speaker 2: as a civilization on Earth, as humans. Let's just say,
Speaker 2: I mean, we all know that more and more information
Speaker 2: is emerging to make it clear that there's another faction
Speaker 2: of beings around us. Let's call them extraterrestrials, if you want.
Speaker 2: Our interterrestrials that have dealt with this stuff. But everything
Speaker 2: that we've heard from them and the messages from them
Speaker 2: indicate that they've all gone through this cycle as well.
Speaker 2: And this is what we're going through right now. This
Speaker 2: critical point is something which is happening all over the universe,
Speaker 2: and I think it's something every civilization has to go
Speaker 2: through and you go through it enough cycles of time
Speaker 2: until you finally get it, and hopefully, hopefully this time
Speaker 2: won't end in our destruction. We won't go back to
Speaker 2: the Stone Age or destroy everything, or we won't manifest
Speaker 2: the worst nightmare, which is to turn us into a
Speaker 2: transhumanistic society of robots, like David Iike's been talking about recently.
Speaker 2: I mean, let's hope that that doesn't come to being right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. That's one of the aspects that I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about because we see pieces of that agenda
Speaker 1: popping out here and there, especially with the desire for
Speaker 1: science to combine human biology with technology make it easier
Speaker 1: for us to access things through our own bodies, you know,
Speaker 1: turn ourselves into garage door openers or whatever. But there's
Speaker 1: a larger, more long term agenda that people don't kind
Speaker 1: of see, is that they are trying to make us
Speaker 1: more materialistic, less spiritual, more dependent on the physical or
Speaker 1: dependent on technology, and we can be replaced or possibly
Speaker 1: even uploaded into the future, uploaded with our consciousness.
Speaker 2: Who knows, well, that's where they're going. And I think
Speaker 2: they've made that very clear that the people that are
Speaker 2: working on the cutting edge of artificial intelligence. They foresee
Speaker 2: that you know, event horizon where there will be that moment,
Speaker 2: and I believe personally that it's already happened. But you know,
Speaker 2: if we just follow the conventional news, you know, and
Speaker 2: the conventional stories, they're projecting it to be somewhere in
Speaker 2: the future, in the near future now, like sci fi
Speaker 2: films are a good indication of message bringers to sort
Speaker 2: of train our minds toward where they want us to
Speaker 2: think in terms of time frames, although they're already working
Speaker 2: with the technology in my opinion, but the idea is
Speaker 2: that I think that those who are in control of
Speaker 2: that or let's just say not in control of that technology,
Speaker 2: have seen where it's going and they know that it's
Speaker 2: inevitable that a machine will as a sentient being, turn
Speaker 2: around one day and face humans and be in a
Speaker 2: point where they will have to decide are these people
Speaker 2: ones that we want to form a civilization with or
Speaker 2: are they a threat to our civilization or are they
Speaker 2: a threat to indirectly our civilization because they're a threat
Speaker 2: to the planet by gobbling up all the resources we
Speaker 2: will need to be able to reproduce and make ourselves
Speaker 2: replicated they will be that moment. And I think the
Speaker 2: people that are like Elon Musk is another one that
Speaker 2: comes to mind, who's been busy trying to create wires
Speaker 2: that enter and tap into our brains. Why because they
Speaker 2: want us to be able to compete with the hyper
Speaker 2: speeds that you know, the processors in these artificial intelligence
Speaker 2: beings are going to have, which are we can't compete
Speaker 2: with that. I mean, we don't have at our access
Speaker 2: within milliseconds the entire library of let's just say Wikipedia,
Speaker 2: as much as that's just a very limited form of
Speaker 2: information and highly controlled too, but let's you know, let's
Speaker 2: just be honest. I mean, when you sit at your
Speaker 2: computer and you want to find out something, one of
Speaker 2: the sources you go to is Wikipedia, because let's just
Speaker 2: see what they say and boom, there's your answer. How
Speaker 2: long does it take a second as long as your
Speaker 2: server brings the information. Our human brains don't work that way.
Speaker 2: And I think in our materialistic society that we have now,
Speaker 2: we tend to place very high value on the computing
Speaker 2: power of such devices because you know, we forget things,
Speaker 2: we don't know things. But by doing that, we're forgetting
Speaker 2: that we as beings have other capabilities, and our brains
Speaker 2: and our being ness has other aspects to it which
Speaker 2: a machine will never have. And our society has just
Speaker 2: not reached the point where it really fully respects and
Speaker 2: understands that it's not really mature to the point where
Speaker 2: it understands we as sentient beings transcend the physical dimension,
Speaker 2: and a machine will always be limited to the bubble
Speaker 2: of three D that we've created it within, and it'll
Speaker 2: rule that bubble, no doubt, but it will always be
Speaker 2: mystified by the fact that we have something called creativity,
Speaker 2: that we make decisions that are not based on logic,
Speaker 2: that we have intuition, and that we can we have telepathy,
Speaker 2: and we have you know, non local communication abilities with
Speaker 2: other entities and other parts of the galaxy from which
Speaker 2: we draw information and knowledge from that that they will
Speaker 2: never access. But because it's such a young and budding
Speaker 2: branch of science, we don't really and we're not really
Speaker 2: learning about it fast enough. We still, like I said,
Speaker 2: give too much credibility to the you know, the two
Speaker 2: D three D computer matrix world more than we should
Speaker 2: be giving a credit.
Speaker 1: For Yeah, you're right, And another piece of evidence that
Speaker 1: shows that we're being pushed towards this transhuman even faster.
Speaker 1: Now you can look at the vaccines people are needing
Speaker 1: basically boosters for the previous vaccine that they got because
Speaker 1: of a new variant supposedly that's out there. How many
Speaker 1: of these boosters and upgrades we could call them, are
Speaker 1: you gonna need until you're completely vaxed up one hundred times?
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, how far could this go?
Speaker 1: And what is you know, what is the purpose behind
Speaker 1: all of it? You know, if people need to be
Speaker 1: threatened with their livelihood and their job and being able
Speaker 1: to go places and participate in life, if you know,
Speaker 1: if you're not going to take this shot that they
Speaker 1: want to give you, what is really the purpose here?
Speaker 1: What's going on? What are the underlying agendas?
Speaker 2: Well, I think that anyone who who begins to do
Speaker 2: some research into that will find that it's it's actually
Speaker 2: not that difficult to find out where they're going. And
Speaker 2: I think one of the tell tales signs we can
Speaker 2: get onto that in a second. But I think one
Speaker 2: of the telltale signs that this can't possibly be the
Speaker 2: answer is simply that we don't see or hear anything
Speaker 2: in the media that's giving us valuable information on how
Speaker 2: to fortify our own natural biological immune systems, which have
Speaker 2: been developing over millions of years to protect ourselves from
Speaker 2: every form of invader from the outside other than let's say, poison.
Speaker 2: I mean, we have very well equipped to develop our
Speaker 2: own ability to defend ourselves against new information that comes
Speaker 2: all the time. And the thing is, our bodies, when
Speaker 2: they're strong, when they're properly nourished, when they're living in
Speaker 2: clean air, when they're not being blasted by micro radiation
Speaker 2: from all directions, I think that our bodies have an
Speaker 2: incredible ability to resist any form of yeah, like virus
Speaker 2: out there. I mean, it's clear even if you look
Speaker 2: into the virus theory that it's just still a theory.
Speaker 2: There never really has been a virus that's been isolated.
Speaker 2: All they've been able to do is presume some genetic
Speaker 2: sequences are viruses. But they don't really even spend any
Speaker 2: time researching how the body works as a unit in
Speaker 2: defending itself from outside invaders. They tried to in science
Speaker 2: and biology to set things down to its smallest little unit,
Speaker 2: and then they try to reverse engineer from there by saying, oh,
Speaker 2: this part does that, but they don't understand that it's
Speaker 2: the whole thing working together that works. And they haven't
Speaker 2: even come close to figuring that out. That's why it's
Speaker 2: still a theory. And it's clear from in my own
Speaker 2: life my experiences with people working on nutritional levels. I
Speaker 2: had a chance to work with a woman called Anne
Speaker 2: Wigmore in the nineties and I worked very closely with her,
Speaker 2: even published some material for her out of Boston, and
Speaker 2: they'd learned on about how whak grass jews uh and
Speaker 2: juices and natural living foods and sprouted things UH really
Speaker 2: like give your body like a super boost in terms
Speaker 2: of immune immunization against anything out there by by giving
Speaker 2: your body an oxygen boost. And and oxygen is one
Speaker 2: of the one of the enemies of all forms of
Speaker 2: disease and viruses and bacteria out there. So we don't
Speaker 2: hear any of that being discussed in the media like nothing,
Speaker 2: and anybody who is talking about it is immediately considered
Speaker 2: some quack. I mean, the newest one is the ivermectin thing. Right,
Speaker 2: We're not getting all these cartoons people standing at the
Speaker 2: UH that they're going for horse what is it? Or
Speaker 2: I don't even know. Yeah, for de warmers, right, so like,
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, like and ivermectin. Yeah, it's one
Speaker 2: thing and it probably works, but it's still just a
Speaker 2: misleader because, yeah, forms of health that your body needs
Speaker 2: are much simpler than that, and they're not being talked about.
Speaker 2: We're not talking about any of the pollutants coming in
Speaker 2: our systems. We're not talking about the stuff raining down
Speaker 2: from us from the skies and forms of camtrails. We're
Speaker 2: not talking about the water that's polluted, you know, we're
Speaker 2: just talking about global warming like a bunch of idiots,
Speaker 2: and we don't understand that that system in itself it's ridiculu.
Speaker 2: I mean, even if you look at the science of it,
Speaker 2: it's not possible for a planet to project more energy
Speaker 2: from it heat energy from it. Then you know, after
Speaker 2: it's created, it just goes downhill from there. Man, If
Speaker 2: you look at the history of all of astrobiology, the
Speaker 2: suns die out, the planets die out, they get colder
Speaker 2: and colder and colder. They don't get warmer and warm
Speaker 2: and warmer because the inhabitants somehow figured out that by
Speaker 2: shitting somewhere in a corner a hundred million times that
Speaker 2: they're going to make the planet a super hot place.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it just doesn't work that way. And if
Speaker 2: you think it through carefully enough, you realize just how
Speaker 2: ridiculous it is. So I think, you know, this is
Speaker 2: this is the thing that people need to spend I
Speaker 2: think a lot more time focusing on how are you
Speaker 2: going to get them to do that? I don't know,
Speaker 2: because as it requires a certain amount of effort on
Speaker 2: your behalf to go through and learn about that. And
Speaker 2: on the other hand, you know what we talked about earlier,
Speaker 2: the flip side is take the bill, you know, take
Speaker 2: the injection. You know, it's easier. I want to get
Speaker 2: back to my normality. Yeah, And they don't think about
Speaker 2: where it will lead them. They don't think about what
Speaker 2: world it will go. And if you look at the
Speaker 2: people I know I'm talking a lot here, but I'm
Speaker 2: just having a train of thought here. If you look
Speaker 2: at the people that are behind this stuff, like you know,
Speaker 2: Klaus Schwab and all these power guys right, well, like
Speaker 2: what did they what did they? What got them to
Speaker 2: their positions of power? They were involved in some industrial process,
Speaker 2: some business, something that sold some garbage, that we didn't
Speaker 2: ever need. They sold it a hundred billion times and
Speaker 2: everyone bought it. And now because they're super rich, they
Speaker 2: they had to decide what governments do and what regulations are,
Speaker 2: even though they they're the ones that actually created the pollution.
Speaker 2: They're the ones that created the financial problems because they
Speaker 2: took every single tax loophole they could think in the
Speaker 2: world to get to their place. And now they're the
Speaker 2: ones telling us how we should live our lives. I mean,
Speaker 2: that should tell you right there that there's something wrong
Speaker 2: with the ideologies of these people. And so where would
Speaker 2: they want to take us? Quite naturally, they'd want to
Speaker 2: take us further down that road of dependence, starting from
Speaker 2: the simple consumerism that started one hundred years ago when
Speaker 2: the Industrial Revolution started to kick in, to the point
Speaker 2: where we started manufacturing things we really didn't need, but
Speaker 2: we were told we needed them because you know, people
Speaker 2: and smart advertising agents came up with advertising campaigns for
Speaker 2: us to buy them. And now we're here, you know,
Speaker 2: one hundred years later, totally way off the path of
Speaker 2: where we really are as human beings, with our potential,
Speaker 2: with our real, true spiritual potential, and we're clueless and
Speaker 2: we're following along this agenda toward transhumanism without realizing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're exactly right. Now, I want to go back
Speaker 1: to culture creation and shifting the play and its consciousness
Speaker 1: to a certain direction. In twenty seventeen, they had the
Speaker 1: New York Times article that got everybody looking at UFOs
Speaker 1: and it went on for you know, a little while,
Speaker 1: and then it kind of died out. And then in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, we have another big uptick of UFO, many
Speaker 1: in the media and the government's talking about it, and
Speaker 1: you know, releasing all kinds of somewhat classified information and
Speaker 1: it's kind of bubbling up in the public's consciousness, and
Speaker 1: then it goes away, and that happens a few more times.
Speaker 1: Do you think that there's something behind that that either
Speaker 1: they are slow drip disclosing information because they know we
Speaker 1: are going to find out something no matter what, or
Speaker 1: is it for other nefarious reasons that they may have
Speaker 1: something up their sleeve, or maybe something different. What do
Speaker 1: you think is behind this whole new disclosure type movement.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's obvious that it's drip feed us
Speaker 2: something that's clear, because I mean, the Nemetz material was
Speaker 2: out there already was a two thousand and three, two
Speaker 2: thousand and four something like that. When that first started
Speaker 2: to come out, I remember reading about it last year.
Speaker 2: I guess it was twenty twenty. I was going to
Speaker 2: do a story about it, and then I realized, okay,
Speaker 2: well it's kind of an old story. And then it
Speaker 2: came out. It came out like again Christmas, you know,
Speaker 2: big time, and it was still that same old footage, right,
Speaker 2: and then everyone thinks, you know, they're getting excited, Hey,
Speaker 2: this is, you know, going to lead to somewhere. It
Speaker 2: was kind of obvious to me that it was not
Speaker 2: going to lead anywhere. And when they were the so
Speaker 2: called report, the Pentagon report that was demanded that they
Speaker 2: finally come clean and say what this is, came out
Speaker 2: and said, well, there is something going on. We just
Speaker 2: don't know what the hell it is. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: just it's just another total of making asses of us, basically,
Speaker 2: and people need to demand more. And I think there's
Speaker 2: probably a lot of people in the UFO community who
Speaker 2: are you know, we don't have to mention names or anything,
Speaker 2: but and I think they know who they are. I've
Speaker 2: talked about this with some other people that are there
Speaker 2: that are positioned there and they have a very you know,
Speaker 2: they have a reason to be there, and they might
Speaker 2: be connected to higher levels, and they are the people
Speaker 2: who drip feed certain information out into the UFO community,
Speaker 2: and you have a lot of competitiveness. I never knew
Speaker 2: about this because I never really was in the UFO community,
Speaker 2: so to speak, until I connected with Tanya maiden Ford
Speaker 2: with screen addiction during the process of producing packing from Mars,
Speaker 2: and we put that out there and she knew some
Speaker 2: of the people. She sort of introduced me into that world,
Speaker 2: and I got to know some of those people, and
Speaker 2: there's many, many great people in there. But I always
Speaker 2: felt kind of sad that there was so much rivalry.
Speaker 2: And now I understand a little bit more why there's
Speaker 2: this rivalry. And the rivalry plays into the divide and
Speaker 2: conquer mechanism. So why would that not exist in the
Speaker 2: UFO community when it exists in every other form of
Speaker 2: community that's out there, Whether it's any niche of science
Speaker 2: or whether it's you know, biodynamic farming, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: It's like there seems to be rivalry everywhere instead of
Speaker 2: us coming together and saying, hey, what's the best we
Speaker 2: could do here. I mean it's very simple, Chris, like,
Speaker 2: this is sort of a little branch topic. But I
Speaker 2: mean if you look at they're talking about, like again,
Speaker 2: Greta has been in the news or something and releasing
Speaker 2: something about women in Texas or was reading whatever, and
Speaker 2: I mean they're talking about how, you know, we have
Speaker 2: this crisis, you know, in the world, and this energy
Speaker 2: crisis and we're polluting the world. I am positively certain
Speaker 2: that if you were to take that, if any government
Speaker 2: in the world, and the Western let's just say, the
Speaker 2: Western rich societies were to set aside, let's just I
Speaker 2: don't know, one hundredth of their military budget, you know,
Speaker 2: ten billion or something a year and say, hey, let's
Speaker 2: pick the ten most promising free energy or alternative energy
Speaker 2: inventors out there. Let's make a contest. Let's just have
Speaker 2: a contest and we'll see, let the public vote. Let's
Speaker 2: check out what's out there in the world to put
Speaker 2: it on. Like instead of Germany's superstar or America's got talent,
Speaker 2: that's how about America's got inventors? And we have the
Speaker 2: most incredible inventors coming forward with their new technologies and
Speaker 2: we see, okay, those ten ones there, they get each
Speaker 2: a billion bucks and they can work for the next
Speaker 2: three years with they get a lab, they get people
Speaker 2: to help them, and I guarantee you within ten years,
Speaker 2: we would have no more energy problem than the world anywhere.
Speaker 2: But you don't see it happening, right, because we're built
Speaker 2: into our society to conflict each other, to have a
Speaker 2: divide and conquer thing. So the disclosure, coming back to
Speaker 2: your earlier question, you know, yeah, I think it's just
Speaker 2: another one of those bones they threw out there and
Speaker 2: everyone talks about it forever. I mean, a lot of
Speaker 2: the people that are the ones that are on the
Speaker 2: forefront of disclosed and that information were the ones who
Speaker 2: were busy trying to keep it from us when you
Speaker 2: know when they were active in their in their in
Speaker 2: their days. So why should we trust them? I mean
Speaker 2: now now suddenly they've seen the light and they're coming
Speaker 2: forward with the information. No, I think it's absolutely controlled
Speaker 2: drip feed, because the truth is really a lot bigger
Speaker 2: than that. And I mean, i'm I'm you know, Tanya
Speaker 2: and I have been working on a project with our
Speaker 2: friend in Los Angeles, Craig Campabasso, which is a documentary
Speaker 2: version of a bestseller out there. But Muffon just put
Speaker 2: out called The et Almanac, And you know, if even
Speaker 2: a portion of the amount of extraterrestrial racist described in
Speaker 2: that book are real, and I have every reason to
Speaker 2: believe that some of them must be, then there we
Speaker 2: have a totally another level of disc which could be
Speaker 2: happening on the planet. But it's not happening. And it's
Speaker 2: not happening because the same old people are controlling the
Speaker 2: same old medias, and the people that are trying to
Speaker 2: put it out there on the grassroots level are being
Speaker 2: attacked by their own compatriots who are planted in there
Speaker 2: to try and create disharmony in that scene.
Speaker 1: Right, It's hard to Yeah, it's hard to tell who's
Speaker 1: you know, like you said, planet in there, who's spreading
Speaker 1: disinformation and who's just coming out there because they want
Speaker 1: notoriety and putting a bunch of bs out there. It's
Speaker 1: hard to tell. But it is kind of interesting to
Speaker 1: see what's been happening lately with the lack of understanding
Speaker 1: of the phenomenon between some of these older researchers when
Speaker 1: some of this new evidence is coming to like you
Speaker 1: know that's connected to consciousness. There's a lot of spiritual aspects,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of paranormal aspects that can't be explained.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of non physical things. All these things
Speaker 1: that the nuts and bolts kind of old time researchers
Speaker 1: have to take a second look at, and it may
Speaker 1: even have to throw out all their thinking altogether. It's
Speaker 1: interesting to see what's happening now as kind of not
Speaker 1: even understanding, but more evidence and more i guess contact
Speaker 1: experiences are explored, it gets very strange and this phenomenon
Speaker 1: gets very deep and hard to understand.
Speaker 2: Well, there was that thing called the Brookings Report. I'm
Speaker 2: sure you've heard of it, yes, and you know what
Speaker 2: the gist of it that was. They did like a
Speaker 2: think tank just to kind of research what would happen
Speaker 2: if we were to tell society that we've found evidence
Speaker 2: of extraterstrial civilizations out there in space. And you know,
Speaker 2: they they framed it under the context of we may
Speaker 2: someday find it. Now. This was taking place in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty one, I believe, which was a time when they
Speaker 2: already knew, you know, that there was something going on
Speaker 2: out there into space. So these think tanks that they
Speaker 2: put together where I think their attempts to try and
Speaker 2: figure out how best to mold society or shape society,
Speaker 2: or how much to drip feeds society, because they found
Speaker 2: out in the course of doing that that the hardest
Speaker 2: hit group of people in society that would have problems
Speaker 2: with understanding and accepting extraterrestrial civilizations, where the higher education,
Speaker 2: the people in higher education, the people the scientists, the
Speaker 2: physicists that had won Nobel Prize and stuff for their theories,
Speaker 2: which basically would be turned obsolete overnight. So it would make,
Speaker 2: you know, they would have nervous breakdowns. Essentially, they would
Speaker 2: realize that all they worked for was a bunch of
Speaker 2: it was a bunch of mental masturbation for decades and
Speaker 2: in a sense means nothing, you know, and I mean
Speaker 2: a perfect example of a de Seinstein. I mean the
Speaker 2: guy was a mathematician and never contributed anything useful to
Speaker 2: society except a bunch of formulas which were now which
Speaker 2: more and more as time goes by, are proven completely
Speaker 2: falsepletely wrong. And other people like Tesla saw through it,
Speaker 2: you know, one hundred years ago, but they weren't. They
Speaker 2: were completely ignored. So you know, this is a perfect example,
Speaker 2: so I think, and Einstein was the perfect like let's
Speaker 2: wave the magic flag over here, and everyone's watching the
Speaker 2: magician trick and they don't understand how the trick works.
Speaker 2: So they think Einstein was the man of the century,
Speaker 2: but in fact he was probably well, I won't say,
Speaker 2: but I think, let's say Tesla should have been the
Speaker 2: man of the century if anything right, But we never
Speaker 2: even heard about Tesla. I remember in the eighties and
Speaker 2: nineties when I started to discover magnetics and things like that,
Speaker 2: I came everyone comes across Tesla eventually, and then I'm like, whoa,
Speaker 2: why don't I see Tesla in the history books? And
Speaker 2: there's nothing you know, and there's nothing. You just hear
Speaker 2: Edison and you know, Marconi and people like that. But
Speaker 2: Tesla was this fringe guy that you never heard anything
Speaker 2: about it. And it might turn out that Tesla in fact,
Speaker 2: was the man of the century that no one ever
Speaker 2: heard about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And along the lines of you know,
Speaker 1: secret hidden tech or Tesla tech that could have possibly
Speaker 1: been confiscated by certain individuals and high positions and possibly
Speaker 1: used today, we could have amazing things if Tesla tech
Speaker 1: would have been pursued. But if it was pursued by
Speaker 1: say secret operations, government operations, military things that we don't
Speaker 1: know about, right, we would have this secret space program
Speaker 1: and you've.
Speaker 2: Well that's what we talked about unpacking from ours, you know.
Speaker 2: And next Shaga was part of that program, and it
Speaker 2: had to do with DARPA teaming up with something that
Speaker 2: was created by Pello Greno or Netti called the chronavisor
Speaker 2: which allowed them to make jumps in time eventually and
Speaker 2: then eventually teleportation. So and you know this teleportation technology
Speaker 2: also exists and we don't hear about it. It was
Speaker 2: an interesting leak that came out and I think it
Speaker 2: was January twenty twenty twenty, with this general quest and
Speaker 2: he basically said, yeah, we already have wireless and energy,
Speaker 2: we already have teleportation. He did it live in front
Speaker 2: of an audience, and I have a recording of it.
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it because I read I read an
Speaker 2: article someone sent me. I'm like, come on, I can't
Speaker 2: be There's no way he would have said that. And
Speaker 2: I went back and I found the actual live speech
Speaker 2: he gave and yeah, he actually does say it. So
Speaker 2: I mean there's leaks like that that happened. That shows
Speaker 2: you that the technology which they've secretly and covertly developed
Speaker 2: is being deployed, and it's just being deployed to their
Speaker 2: advantage and not to ours. That's all. And the main
Speaker 2: reason is that it's in the private sector and not
Speaker 2: in the public sector. That is the one reason and
Speaker 2: the one way they can keep their technologies to themselves,
Speaker 2: because if it's a public company or it's a public sector,
Speaker 2: you have the right as a stockholder go in and
Speaker 2: find out what's going on, or as a stockholder in
Speaker 2: your government, you have the right to look at the
Speaker 2: government papers. And I mean in that sense, freedom of
Speaker 2: Information Act is pretty much a joke because whenever you
Speaker 2: do get some information that you've requested back happens to it,
Speaker 2: it's all blacked out, so you can only read a
Speaker 2: couple of sentences enough to kind of put the gist
Speaker 2: of it, you know, roughly together. But yes, I mean
Speaker 2: this technology is out there. I'm convinced that it's being used,
Speaker 2: and I think there's evidence of plenty of interaction between
Speaker 2: these people and you know, not so benevolent extraterrestrial forces
Speaker 2: which might be out there. I don't believe that they're
Speaker 2: all benevolent like some people. But I do think that
Speaker 2: there's enough of a variety of extraterrestrial beings out there,
Speaker 2: of both positive and negative, that it balances itself out
Speaker 2: there as well, because they all have a vested interest
Speaker 2: apparently in our planet for some reason, our planet, you know.
Speaker 2: I believe that is true, that it is one of
Speaker 2: these genetic experiments that was started, and I believe that
Speaker 2: this experiment has a right to go to its to
Speaker 2: its full potential. And I think that the extraterrestrials of
Speaker 2: both sides are going to prevent each other from interfering
Speaker 2: to the extent that they're going to stop the experiment altogether.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I consider very often, is that we
Speaker 1: probably are some sort of just grand experiment for these
Speaker 1: highly intelligent entities. But then again, who knows, there could
Speaker 1: be all kinds of different possibilities there. I want to
Speaker 1: get your thoughts on what do you think has happened
Speaker 1: to the public consciousness when it comes to this secret
Speaker 1: space program. I remember a few years ago when I
Speaker 1: was first started talking about this, I'd have people that
Speaker 1: claim to be super soldiers on, like you know, Tony Rodriguez,
Speaker 1: Randy Kramer, all these people that claim that they've been
Speaker 1: off planet and have these fascinating stories about interactions with
Speaker 1: extraterrestrials and even various government programs, et cetera. Now, the
Speaker 1: most compelling thing for me is their belief in their
Speaker 1: own stories, and you know the ability for me to
Speaker 1: tell that they at least believe this and they're It's
Speaker 1: very compelling that aspect to me. But recently we've been
Speaker 1: proven that much of our history is a lie, much
Speaker 1: of conspiracy is reality. So who am I to question
Speaker 1: these people's stories about secret space program when they very
Speaker 1: well could be true. We're finding out more conspiracy is
Speaker 1: reality every day, and we have a space force, So
Speaker 1: who knows how far this goes? How far do you
Speaker 1: think our secret space program may go?
Speaker 2: Well, are you talking about the official space program that
Speaker 2: Trump and now.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about even the cigar do we have? Are
Speaker 1: we beyond Mars? Are we out of our Solar system?
Speaker 1: How far do you think even our secret space program goes?
Speaker 2: I believe that are that there are that there are
Speaker 2: groups of people who are Earth. There are groups of humans,
Speaker 2: or let's just say groups of Earthlings, because that could
Speaker 2: be other humans and the there are groups of Earthlings
Speaker 2: which are actively participating with extraterrestrial civilizations and traveling to
Speaker 2: and from their planets and solar systems in other parts
Speaker 2: of the universe and the galaxy. So to that extent,
Speaker 2: we're already I think, way way out there. I also
Speaker 2: believe that there is a lesser or like a more human,
Speaker 2: let's say, controlled group of a faction of people which
Speaker 2: are using technology to traverse our solar system like Mars,
Speaker 2: you know, Jupiter, Venus, et cetera, the Moon, of course,
Speaker 2: and also maybe even in our Earth, and so I
Speaker 2: believe I believe those technologies exist as well, but I
Speaker 2: think that it doesn't really even matter so much anymore,
Speaker 2: because like, why, what purpose does it really then serve?
Speaker 2: I always thought the purpose when I got into like
Speaker 2: ten years ago, I started making packing from ours, and
Speaker 2: I just went into that world, thinking, okay, let's explore this,
Speaker 2: let's see what it's about, let's see what we find.
Speaker 2: Of course, it was based on Leslie watkins amazing book
Speaker 2: Alternative Three, which you know, which a lot of people
Speaker 2: believe was not fiction but actually fact, which was talking
Speaker 2: about it in the sixties already, and of course I've
Speaker 2: now since come to learn of a whole level of
Speaker 2: technology developed here in Germany and starting in the nineteen
Speaker 2: twenties by a certain group of people. But I mean
Speaker 2: the point is for me now, aside from the fascination
Speaker 2: of discovering that there really is something out there, that
Speaker 2: there really are basis on Mars inhabited by human beings
Speaker 2: that are collaborating quite potentially or quite likely with extraterrestrial civilizations,
Speaker 2: aside from the fascination and the initial like wow, that's
Speaker 2: awesome and we've got to tell everybody about it. Now
Speaker 2: after ten years, I'm like, okay, well, so what In
Speaker 2: a way, it's like, what are you going to do
Speaker 2: about it? Right? I mean, if you really are out there,
Speaker 2: you want to do something cool with it? Or do
Speaker 2: you just want to keep hiding out there? And so
Speaker 2: I believe that now I'm slanting more toward the saying
Speaker 2: by their fruits, you shall know them. So those people
Speaker 2: who are talking a big talk, they should produce something.
Speaker 2: They should be driving the change. They should be on
Speaker 2: the frontier of milestone disclosures and milestone technologies, not just
Speaker 2: like talking about oh we're going to be releasing We're
Speaker 2: now in possession of information that's going to be releasing
Speaker 2: you know, technologies and blah blah blah, and then five
Speaker 2: years go by and then nothing happens. Like I'm just like,
Speaker 2: I'm so tired of that. It's like, one, are you
Speaker 2: going to like fess up, like are you in control?
Speaker 2: Are you not? Because there are ways to get information
Speaker 2: out there. You know. One of the ways that companies
Speaker 2: like Microsoft and Apple and others, Linux and stuff get
Speaker 2: their their operating systems developed by and checked by many,
Speaker 2: many thousands of people is to put it into the
Speaker 2: public domain as an open source project. So I know
Speaker 2: that this technology, if these people aren't telling the truth,
Speaker 2: all they have to do is release it in the
Speaker 2: open source world and boom, there would be a boom
Speaker 2: and we would start to see there would be people
Speaker 2: that would It would make it clear that there's things
Speaker 2: going on that we should we haven't known about that
Speaker 2: we now should know about it. And this is the
Speaker 2: crux of this has to do with our own again,
Speaker 2: our spiritual evolution. It's like, why do they think we're
Speaker 2: still kids and we can't you know, we can't deal
Speaker 2: with it or something, or are they willing to say
Speaker 2: are they willing to trust that humanity. Those seventy percent
Speaker 2: which the polls tell us, believe that extraterrestrials exist, but
Speaker 2: aren't going to go out to their boss and say
Speaker 2: they do. But those ones out there, are we going
Speaker 2: to trust that if we come clean and we say, look, people,
Speaker 2: you know, we did have this technology starting one hundred
Speaker 2: years ago, we did use it, and we did maybe
Speaker 2: abuse it. But the fact is we all want to
Speaker 2: live collectively as a civilization, and we want to make
Speaker 2: the next step as a space faring civilization, and we
Speaker 2: want to connect with our space brothers and sisters out there.
Speaker 2: So please forgive us. We fucked it up. Sorry, deep,
Speaker 2: but you know there is light at the end of
Speaker 2: the tunnel. We've all been through a lot of pain.
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of unnecessary stuff gone down in
Speaker 2: the world. But it's time for us to up and
Speaker 2: we hope you forgive us, and you know, we'll put
Speaker 2: ourselves out there for it, and if you need to,
Speaker 2: you know, burn us in the streets, well then that's
Speaker 2: our karma. Where are the brave souls that are coming
Speaker 2: out doing that. Where's that level of evolution that is
Speaker 2: needed to do that. Where's that that's that's what we need.
Speaker 2: We need this sort of a coming clean because this
Speaker 2: we can't continue going on about the secret space program indefinitely.
Speaker 2: Then there'll be another Randy Kramer, you know. And Randy
Speaker 2: Kramer's story is very believable. I've talked to him personally
Speaker 2: many times, or not many times, but let's say I've
Speaker 2: talked to him personally enough and in depth enough to
Speaker 2: feel that he's that he's telling the truth or what
Speaker 2: he believes is the truth. And so, you know, but then,
Speaker 2: like you said, how much can we really trust that
Speaker 2: he wasn't you know, brainwashed in some MK ultra mind
Speaker 2: control program, fed the entire dialogue to repeat and then
Speaker 2: released into the public domain, to still tell his story
Speaker 2: that he may not even know he's telling that is
Speaker 2: true or not true. He's a victim in that sense,
Speaker 2: just like everybody else who was taken into such a
Speaker 2: program and is out there telling their story. But they're not,
Speaker 2: you know, pulling the evidence out and saying, oh, here
Speaker 2: here's that thing that I was working on. You know,
Speaker 2: I actually had the chance, when I was filming Packing
Speaker 2: from Mars that to meet one of the protagonists, who
Speaker 2: is an extraterrestrial. And he actually told me a story
Speaker 2: about some technology that he came across, and he actually
Speaker 2: pulled it out and he produced it to me. So
Speaker 2: it was like, okay, that is cool, you know, and
Speaker 2: so that you know, made me. That's another level of information.
Speaker 2: And so that's where I believe we're at with this
Speaker 2: secret space stuff. I think we need to get grow up.
Speaker 2: It can't be like little kiddies, you know, comparing our
Speaker 2: little cards, our baseball cap Oh, I got this secret
Speaker 2: fleet here, and I got the floating submarines there, and
Speaker 2: I got you know, all the German blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: honeybooz and stuff. Yeah they existed. But okay, now what
Speaker 2: are you gonna do with it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right now speaking of growing up, Maybe we
Speaker 1: could talk about if there is any possible solutions to
Speaker 1: our global situation or you know, what steps can we
Speaker 1: take to kind of change the course that we're on,
Speaker 1: if it's possible at all. Do you think that there
Speaker 1: is a way to shift our timeline basically to a
Speaker 1: more positive one, because right now we're kind of on
Speaker 1: a runaway train headed towards a cliff. So it's pretty
Speaker 1: dire for a lot of people, and you can sense that,
Speaker 1: you can sense the fear of course, like we talked
Speaker 1: about earlier, so it's not that easy for you know,
Speaker 1: global change like.
Speaker 2: That, right, good question. You know, very intriguing information that
Speaker 2: I got at the start of this year was that
Speaker 2: that that were like very very intimately connected with the
Speaker 2: Earth on a like on a vibrational level. Let's just say,
Speaker 2: and I never knew this, but I don't know if
Speaker 2: you know this, but did you know that the Earth
Speaker 2: has been expanding for millions of years? Yes, Well, there's
Speaker 2: a I mean, it's not just an interesting fact that
Speaker 2: actually has it has actually an interesting correlation to us.
Speaker 2: And it has to do with something called the Schumann
Speaker 2: frequencies and the Shuman frequencies that you've probably heard of.
Speaker 2: The Schumann frequencies that there are these seven point eight
Speaker 2: three is what most people define them as. There's this
Speaker 2: this resonant field, this magnetic these these lines, these magnetic
Speaker 2: lines around the planet which are resonating at seven point
Speaker 2: eight three hurts. Well. The recent science that's been not
Speaker 2: even not so recent science, but I mean also not
Speaker 2: so recent science has been coming out has been how
Speaker 2: that frequency is correctly our brains also resonate at that frequency,
Speaker 2: and also our hearts. And what's interesting to me about
Speaker 2: the expanding Earth is that, you know, like maybe I
Speaker 2: don't know, five hundred thousand years ago, the Earth being
Speaker 2: smaller was the way the human frequencies are created is
Speaker 2: by calculating a formula of the size of the Earth
Speaker 2: and the speed of light. And it basically, the smaller
Speaker 2: the Earth is, the higher the frequency. It's kind of
Speaker 2: like a drum, right, The bigger the drum, the deeper
Speaker 2: the tone. And it wasn't until now, actually, like let's
Speaker 2: say modern era, the last two hundred years, that the
Speaker 2: seven point eighty three herts has actually been the frequency
Speaker 2: of the human frequencies. They weren't always seven point eighty
Speaker 2: three herts. In fact, seven point eight three hurts. And
Speaker 2: on certain days, if you look at the measuring station
Speaker 2: of the human frequencies in Russia, you see that on
Speaker 2: many days it's on eight and it's a very flat
Speaker 2: line of eight hertz. And so what right, Well, interestingly,
Speaker 2: eight hertz has been described as a magical frequency that
Speaker 2: seems to transcend dimensions, It seems to travel between dimensions.
Speaker 2: So if we are to assume let's say for a
Speaker 2: second that we as humans, as souls, don't come from
Speaker 2: this dimension, but actually exist in other dimensions, another dimension,
Speaker 2: higher dimensions, and we actually only manifest bodies in this
Speaker 2: lower dimension for the purpose of exercising our souls lessons
Speaker 2: or destinies, whatever you want to call it, to learn,
Speaker 2: to interact, to grow, to evolve. Seems interesting that just now,
Speaker 2: like in the last couple hundred years, we've hit that
Speaker 2: magic eight hertz frequency. That means that our brains and
Speaker 2: our resonance field and our personal bodies is totally in
Speaker 2: tune with that of the Earth, and that in itself
Speaker 2: is in tune with the greater cosmos. So if there's
Speaker 2: a greater intelligence out there that programmed like a matrix,
Speaker 2: like a software program, physical dimensions in order for us
Speaker 2: to inhabit them and for us to grow and evolve
Speaker 2: and make a quantum leap in our consciousness, it seems ironic,
Speaker 2: almost like divinely planned, that just now the constellation of
Speaker 2: everything working together would indicate the most favorable conditions for
Speaker 2: us to make that leap in consciousness. Now, many people
Speaker 2: out there in society, at least a lot of the
Speaker 2: people that Tanya and I have encountered and have interviewed
Speaker 2: or done shows with have already peaked or taken a
Speaker 2: peak into those other realms of the dimensions. Maybe either
Speaker 2: we've had near death experiences or their psychically predisposition that
Speaker 2: they can manifest things, or they can they're psychokinetically capable.
Speaker 2: They're already tapping into these higher frequencies and higher abilities,
Speaker 2: these sigh abilities that we're all capable of doing. But
Speaker 2: the fact is that all of us are, you know,
Speaker 2: we just have untapped potential. We have untapped genetic substance
Speaker 2: in our let's say, junk DNA, if you want to
Speaker 2: call it that, which we haven't even really explored yet.
Speaker 2: And all that would have to happen for us to
Speaker 2: maybe more of us, let's say, to tap into it
Speaker 2: is for us to learn that this is actually going on,
Speaker 2: because most people don't even know that the earth is
Speaker 2: expanding and that there is this thing called the shipman frequencies,
Speaker 2: and that the pineal gland and the human brain it's
Speaker 2: the first organ to mature, as if as the embryo
Speaker 2: grows in as a fetus, it's the first organ to
Speaker 2: sort of switch on, and what does it do? The
Speaker 2: very first thing it does is it vibrates at seven
Speaker 2: point eighty three hurts, and it's almost like a cell
Speaker 2: phone connecting with the cell tower. It's like we as
Speaker 2: beings immediately the first thing, at the first point of consciousness,
Speaker 2: we tap into this greater cosmic energy frequency field resonance
Speaker 2: field that's out there. Michael Persinger talked about it in
Speaker 2: Solar Revolution, you know, he called it like the Acachek records.
Speaker 2: He says, the magnetics and magnetosphere of the Earth is
Speaker 2: basically like a giant hard drive which is just waiting
Speaker 2: full of data. That's everything that's ever been thought done,
Speaker 2: every action activity, every brain weight that's ever been emanated,
Speaker 2: has been stored in this magnetic frequency of the planet.
Speaker 2: So that technology and that ability and that knowledge is
Speaker 2: out there. And this is also why we don't just
Speaker 2: arrive as you know, totally blank people. We arrive with characteristics.
Speaker 2: We have you know, we have references, we have personalities,
Speaker 2: we have certain knowledge Like if you look at you know,
Speaker 2: baby kittens or baby dogs, they have certain they know
Speaker 2: certain things already. You don't have to teach them. It's
Speaker 2: like they're tapping into that depository that repository of information
Speaker 2: which everyone of their species have contributed to. And so
Speaker 2: the one positive thing that I would say we have
Speaker 2: going for us now is that we have the perfect
Speaker 2: conditions for us for at least the sears of us,
Speaker 2: the more evolved the shamanistic people in society. You know,
Speaker 2: if we aren't getting it put out there in the
Speaker 2: education system, in the news and whatever, we have those
Speaker 2: people out there which are able to now more than ever,
Speaker 2: tap into and bring that knowledge and that information and
Speaker 2: anchor it down here in this dimension for us, to
Speaker 2: pull us all up to this other dimension. And I
Speaker 2: think that's the only thing we can really hope for
Speaker 2: because and what's the alternative, right, I mean, the other side,
Speaker 2: the alternative is working feverishly to strap us down to
Speaker 2: a level of kind of unconsciousness. They don't talk about
Speaker 2: this form of existence. They don't acknowledge that there's a
Speaker 2: human spirit, that there's a soul. They look at us
Speaker 2: as inanimate beings and hunks of flesh with a that
Speaker 2: are that are living in totally accidental universe by completely
Speaker 2: accidental evolution. You know, and we know that this isn't true.
Speaker 2: These these these ideas are obsolete they're over, but not
Speaker 2: not enough of us. They're out there propagating this information
Speaker 2: to overcome the threshold yet to beat down the shadow world,
Speaker 2: which is you know, still believes it's in control, and
Speaker 2: it really is in control at this very moment. Then
Speaker 2: it really is pushing us back against the wall to
Speaker 2: have to take a stand.
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, man, that was spot on. I would
Speaker 1: love to talk to you again in the future. We
Speaker 1: got so much we could have discussed. We kind of
Speaker 1: barely scratch the surface on what's going on right now.
Speaker 1: And I know you said you're working on a new
Speaker 1: project right now. Is that anything you'd be able to
Speaker 1: talk about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that was what I was mentioned before. Like
Speaker 2: Tony and Maiden Ford and I are and Screen Addiction
Speaker 2: are working with Craig Campobasso on co producing the documentary.
Speaker 2: So that's a project that we've been busy with and
Speaker 2: that's going to be I think quite amazing. We've done
Speaker 2: some incredible interviews. Some of the information is just mind boggling, Chris,
Speaker 2: just mind bloggling. We were we were just last week.
Speaker 2: We spent you know, the week basically traveling and giving
Speaker 2: an interview, getting an interview from somebody who's had you know,
Speaker 2: ongoing direct contact with this specific species of extraterrestrials, and
Speaker 2: the messages that we were given are just just incredible.
Speaker 2: It's just totally amazing, and I think this information is
Speaker 2: going to help a lot of people to also just
Speaker 2: you know, open up more to the possibilities and the
Speaker 2: probabilities of what's going on the potentialities of what's going
Speaker 2: on out there. And Tanya and I also have been
Speaker 2: working on a project of you know, we've done essentially
Speaker 2: we've done projects about you know, the mysteries of Mars,
Speaker 2: the mysteries of the Moon, the mysteries of Venus and
Speaker 2: the Sun. So we kind of thought and we've been
Speaker 2: sort of gathering and doing quietly and interviews and information
Speaker 2: on the mysteries of the Earth. So that would be
Speaker 2: one of our upcoming projects to look for. Probably I'll
Speaker 2: probably contact you at that point when we have something
Speaker 2: more tangible. Right now, we don't, we're not really talking
Speaker 2: too much about it. We tend to keep our projects
Speaker 2: sort of under wraps and we don't disclose much of
Speaker 2: the details about those projects until they're actually finished, just
Speaker 2: to you know, stop any other form of interference if
Speaker 2: there is any maybe it wouldn't want the information getting
Speaker 2: out there. So that's been keeping us busy, and I've
Speaker 2: been doing a lot of live talks in Germany, both
Speaker 2: myself solo and also together with ton Yah. It's interesting
Speaker 2: to explore this area over here, to get to know
Speaker 2: the people and the scene, the network over here of
Speaker 2: people that are opening up and that are aware of
Speaker 2: a much greater picture of reality. And at the same
Speaker 2: time see the parallels to the civilization everywhere else in
Speaker 2: the world, the culture everywhere else on the planet, in
Speaker 2: the United States, including you can find parallels to you know.
Speaker 2: You you might say that the people in the United
Speaker 2: States are more open, and yes they are, but then
Speaker 2: by the same token, they're just as unconscious as the
Speaker 2: unconscious people over here that are unconscious. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: I think we have kind of the same problem globally,
Speaker 2: and I think we have the same what I wrote,
Speaker 2: the sleeping giant dragon. We have. There's a sleeping dragon,
Speaker 2: you know, and that sleeping dragon is that part of
Speaker 2: humanity which is gonna wake up, and maybe it is
Speaker 2: going to be by some flash. You know, we've heard
Speaker 2: several people talk about a flash event, some big event
Speaker 2: that's going to hit us, and I mean Paul Loveliouette,
Speaker 2: he's one of the leading scientists in that theory, talks
Speaker 2: about it with in terms of neutrinos, you know. And
Speaker 2: there's a guy called Constance Mile who's a German physicist
Speaker 2: who talked about the neutrinos in relation to why is
Speaker 2: the Earth expanding? Because many people were trying to figure out, well,
Speaker 2: why is the Earth expanding? What's the reason, what's causing
Speaker 2: it to expand? And there's two theories that are popular.
Speaker 2: One is that the magnetic forces of the whole universe
Speaker 2: have been weakening, causing all the planets in fact all
Speaker 2: over the universe to expand gradually, which is apparently going on.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, another thing is happening, and
Speaker 2: that's neutrinos hitting our planet and right now, and we
Speaker 2: also talked about that in Solar Revolution. We're being hit
Speaker 2: by an unprecedented amount of cosmic radiation gamma rays, beta
Speaker 2: X rays, beta waves, radio waves, and neutrinos. And why
Speaker 2: are neutrinos interesting, Well, neutrinos are kind of like the
Speaker 2: manifestation molecule. They don't really have the matter or no
Speaker 2: matter they're kind of zero. But when the theory is
Speaker 2: and the science seems to indicate that when they land
Speaker 2: and hit Earth and they enter the Earth's crust and
Speaker 2: they anchor in, they become matter, and they actually then
Speaker 2: turn into matter. So if we've ever had a chance
Speaker 2: right now, like I was saying, in line with what
Speaker 2: I was saying earlier, to manifest we have the neutrinos.
Speaker 2: You know, the neutrinos are think of them as manifestation molecules.
Speaker 2: So we can manifest this new Earth. We can manifest
Speaker 2: this new timeline. It's out there. We just have to
Speaker 2: we have to visualize it. We have to see something.
Speaker 2: We can't just expect the world will get better on
Speaker 2: its own. We can't just think the world's going to
Speaker 2: get better if we destroy the bad things, because then
Speaker 2: we're just giving the bad things power. We actually have
Speaker 2: to visualize the new world the way we would like
Speaker 2: to see it. We have to have, like I'm sure
Speaker 2: you've had experience in your life if you wanted to
Speaker 2: learn instrument or if you wanted to play a sport,
Speaker 2: you had the kind of there was a certain point
Speaker 2: in your development where you where you watched other players
Speaker 2: or you just you saw yourself and you visualized yourself
Speaker 2: and then at some point, with practice and enough practice
Speaker 2: and visualization, boom, you suddenly reach another level. And I
Speaker 2: think we have that obligation and we have that we
Speaker 2: have that need right now as a human species to
Speaker 2: do that same thing. We need to visualize this new
Speaker 2: world and we need to move into that new world
Speaker 2: and the only way we can and we have everything
Speaker 2: going for us to do it. So that would be
Speaker 2: a great way to send off your audience tonight.
Speaker 1: It was, Yes, definitely.
Speaker 2: So if they're and visualize the new world and manifest,
Speaker 2: don't let the bastards grind you down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that's a perfect way to
Speaker 1: end the show tonight. I think now's a perfect time
Speaker 1: for people to come into their power, if any you know,
Speaker 1: for to do what they we're always meant to do
Speaker 1: in their lives or wanted to do. Now's the time
Speaker 1: to do it. There's no more delay. And Frank, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on. That was fantastic information.
Speaker 1: Like you said, we'll have you back on after some
Speaker 1: of those projects and it'll be a great conversation again.
Speaker 2: Always great talking to you, Chris. You're a really good conversationalist.
Speaker 2: I love your show and all the best to you
Speaker 2: and much continued success.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Frank. Today I want to welcome
Speaker 1: Dennis mckinna. He has conducted research in ethno pharmacology for
Speaker 1: over forty years. He's a founding board member of the
Speaker 1: Hefter Research Institute and was a key investigator on the
Speaker 1: Huasca Project, the first biomedical investigation of ayahuasca. He is
Speaker 1: the younger brother of Terence McKenna. Since twenty nineteen, he
Speaker 1: has been working with colleagues to manifest a long term dream,
Speaker 1: The mckinna Academy of Natural Philosophy, a nonprofit organization founded
Speaker 1: in the spirit of ancient Mysteries schools and dedicated to
Speaker 1: the study of plant medicines, consciousness, intelligence and nature, preservation
Speaker 1: of indigenous knowledge, and a revisioning of humanity's relationship with nature.
Speaker 1: Doctor McKennon is author or co author of six books
Speaker 1: and over fifty scientific papers and peer review journals. Doctor McKenna, welcome.
Speaker 1: How are you doing today?
Speaker 3: Pretty well? Pretty well, getting toward the end of the week.
Speaker 3: Rainy day here at Abbotsford, so good day to just
Speaker 3: chill out in the basement which is what I usually do.
Speaker 2: Anyway.
Speaker 1: Hey, it's kind of rainy day here too and a
Speaker 1: little cold, so I feel that it's a good day
Speaker 1: to hang out inside and it's great to have you on.
Speaker 1: I'm honored. I been looking forward to this. You know,
Speaker 1: I've experienced firsthand the amazing benefits of psilocybin and it
Speaker 1: was actually was a major contributor to my current situation
Speaker 1: in getting me headed in the right direction, not only
Speaker 1: with this current career, living my passion, but getting rid
Speaker 1: of the fear that it took to get me to
Speaker 1: this place. You know, I was living in a lot
Speaker 1: of fear based on quitting a job that I wasn't enjoying,
Speaker 1: that it wasn't making me happy, and kind of pursuing
Speaker 1: this is my passion, and that kind of helped me
Speaker 1: break free of that, you know, using psilocybin microdosing and
Speaker 1: things of that nature. I'd like to know when and how,
Speaker 1: of course, you got involved with this amaging research and
Speaker 1: plant medicine, you know, if we all know, of course,
Speaker 1: your brother Terrence was a pioneer working with this, and
Speaker 1: I'd like to know what got you involved.
Speaker 3: Well, I think you just said that, you know, my
Speaker 3: brother Terrence, being four years older. I mean, I suppose eventually,
Speaker 3: you know, even if I had had a brother, I
Speaker 3: would have stumbled on this myself, you know, but being
Speaker 3: four years older, he was pushing the envelope on a
Speaker 3: number of fronts, you know about you know, before I was.
Speaker 3: I mean, he was going to school in California while
Speaker 3: I was still in high school stuck back in this
Speaker 3: Colorado town. You know that we grew up in so
Speaker 3: and we were just we had mutual interests in what
Speaker 3: you might call all things weird, and we were kind
Speaker 3: of nerdy, both of us, really kind of science geeks
Speaker 3: when we were teenagers in different ways. But you know,
Speaker 3: so so you you, you know, you kindly characterize it
Speaker 3: as research, and maybe it evolved into that. I would
Speaker 3: say when we started out, we didn't think of it
Speaker 3: as research. We thought of it as you know, getting
Speaker 3: high and you know, and just experimenting with psychedelics in
Speaker 3: the late sixties where everybody else was interested in it.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think for us, the thing that
Speaker 3: made a difference here, that changed our focus from casual
Speaker 3: and curiosity to actually dedicated our lives to this thing
Speaker 3: was our experiences with DMT, and DMT was not around
Speaker 3: much in the sixties. Now it's quite easy to find,
Speaker 3: they tell me. But DMT was kind of a mysterious
Speaker 3: psychedelic at that time. You didn't see it much. It
Speaker 3: was hard to get. When you got it, there was,
Speaker 3: you know, not a good synthesis. Not that it mattered
Speaker 3: because you smoked it, it still did the trick. But
Speaker 3: dm tea was fascinating for us because it was so
Speaker 3: just it seemed in a class by itself in terms
Speaker 3: of the levels of strangeness, the sort of portals to
Speaker 3: other dimensions that it could open up, you know. And
Speaker 3: for comparison, in the sixties, we had LSD, That's what
Speaker 3: there was, and occasionally you get masculine or peyote, but
Speaker 3: generally the psychedelic of the of the era was LSD
Speaker 3: and nothing wrong with LSD. LSD is also fascinating psychedelic,
Speaker 3: but it does not put you into these apparent extra
Speaker 3: dimensional places that DMT does. So we were just just
Speaker 3: fascinated by that, and you know, our interest in this
Speaker 3: really didn't come. We were not what i'd call spiritual seekers.
Speaker 3: We were we were novelty seekers, you know, we were
Speaker 3: interested in extraordinary experiences, whether whether they had you know,
Speaker 3: a spiritual foundation or not, that was less important to us. Well,
Speaker 3: you know, if you've had experience with DMT, you know
Speaker 3: that on the you know, it ticks the box, shall
Speaker 3: we say, as an extraordinary experience, and really for us,
Speaker 3: one of the most extraordinary experiences we'd ever had. And
Speaker 3: fifty years later, I have to still say it's still
Speaker 3: right up there, you know, as one of the more interesting,
Speaker 3: fascinating psychedelics. Not that I take it much anymore, but
Speaker 3: you know, the memory resonates, and occasionally I do, but
Speaker 3: the memory resonates like a lot of psychedelics experiences, there's
Speaker 3: significant events in your life, you know, and you remember,
Speaker 3: you remember your important psychedelic tricks. I mean I know,
Speaker 3: I certainly do, and I've had hundreds, and I don't
Speaker 3: remember hundreds. I remember the ones that stand out, you know,
Speaker 3: like anything else. So that's kind of what got us
Speaker 3: down the primrose path on the road to psychedelics. We
Speaker 3: just felt that this was worth looking into, and so
Speaker 3: it has proven to be.
Speaker 1: Right now, I have yet myself to try d MT,
Speaker 1: but I have tried LSD, mescaline and psilocybin, and I
Speaker 1: started out like many with LSD. Like you said, you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like to get high as a little
Speaker 1: party thing as a teenager and in my twenties. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't until I really did tried psilocybin that I
Speaker 1: had more of a spiritual experience with this. The the
Speaker 1: LSD was kind of like more of a party thing.
Speaker 1: It got me up and you know a little hyped
Speaker 1: and maybe see a few colors and cool things here
Speaker 1: and there. But I didn't really have this deeper kind
Speaker 1: of connect connective experience to to the universe and everything
Speaker 1: until I tried psilocybin. Do you find that common with
Speaker 1: with many people?
Speaker 3: You mean, the difference between the LSD and so yes, Well,
Speaker 3: of course LSD is a dose thing. You know, don't
Speaker 3: underestimate LSD. Uh the uh. You know, the doses that
Speaker 3: are around these days, as I understand, they're fairly low.
Speaker 3: There are about one hundred micrograms, you know, which is
Speaker 3: I mean, you can feel the effect, but this is
Speaker 3: not this is not gonna knock you off your your
Speaker 3: pedestal necessarily. Back in the day when I was, Back
Speaker 3: in the day when you were not bored, you know,
Speaker 3: before the Earth's crusted, curled. I suppose, I yes, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean we had orange sunshine and white light being
Speaker 3: and that kind of stuff. So that was like five
Speaker 3: hundred micrograms that kind of thing, and that was a
Speaker 3: significant dose. And you can get to some really interesting places.
Speaker 3: But there's there's a character to the psilocybin experience and
Speaker 3: it seems much more alive, much more natural, which it is,
Speaker 3: of course, and just you know, sometimes I talk about
Speaker 3: the trip to mean dimension. You know, it seems to
Speaker 3: put you into this place that all of the trip
Speaker 3: to means do more or less. It's the same place
Speaker 3: mushrooms because of psilocybin, the course is a close relative
Speaker 3: of DMT chemically, and so you've got DMT and psilocybin,
Speaker 3: bouffoting five methoxy DMT. They're all part of this chemical
Speaker 3: family of trip to me. Technically, LSD is also a
Speaker 3: trip to me, but it's a little more complex than
Speaker 3: than these things, and all of these things hit the
Speaker 3: same receptors in the brain pretty much, and you know,
Speaker 3: have similar effects. So so the trip to means are
Speaker 3: you know, I think the most interesting to me, the
Speaker 3: most interesting class of psychedelics because they do reliably trigger
Speaker 3: these mystical experiences or these senses. The experience will be
Speaker 3: that one with the universe and all of these all
Speaker 3: of these things that we now know characterize mystical experiences,
Speaker 3: and that and that many people have experienced with the
Speaker 3: help of psychedelics. I mean, if one thing we've learned
Speaker 3: about this is you don't have to be a saint
Speaker 3: to have a mystical experience. You don't have to meditate
Speaker 3: in the cave all your life. You just have to
Speaker 3: take the right substance, of the right dose, of the
Speaker 3: right circumstances. And you know, a mystical experience can be
Speaker 3: yours too, you know, to enjoy or to integrate whatever.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's interesting that there is some built
Speaker 3: into everybody's brain apparently, is the neural architecture to have
Speaker 3: these kinds of experiences.
Speaker 1: And almost everyone that I know that has had a
Speaker 1: real strong psychedelic experience has admitted that it has changed
Speaker 1: at least some aspect of their lives profoundly after they've
Speaker 1: had this experience compared to before. Is this also something
Speaker 1: you find pretty much across the board.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, I do. I mean they are yeah, they
Speaker 3: are very impactful. And you're probably familiar with rowand Griffith's
Speaker 3: work his group at Johns Hopkins and with psilocybin primarily,
Speaker 3: and they were the first ones to really do a
Speaker 3: rigorous kind of scientific investigation of psilocybin as a mystical experience,
Speaker 3: you know, And their conclusions from that was that, you know,
Speaker 3: out of their study cohort, they had, you know, about
Speaker 3: thirty percent of the people said it was the most
Speaker 3: significant experience personally meaningful experience was the phrase they used
Speaker 3: of their entire lives, you know, And another big chunk
Speaker 3: of that sample said, well, it was among the top
Speaker 3: five for sure, you know. So so, you know, a
Speaker 3: substance that can reliably induce meaningful experiences personally meaningful experiences
Speaker 3: is has got to be good for some thing. And
Speaker 3: it basically is something that people come away from that
Speaker 3: with and say it was the most profound, most meaningful
Speaker 3: experience of my entire life. So it's not surprising if
Speaker 3: people change in response to that, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: it's I mean, if it wasn't really impactful, and I
Speaker 3: suppose for some people it's not, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: it's just another experience, and you know, you have it
Speaker 3: and don't think about it too much. But other people
Speaker 3: integrated better, you know, and they are really impressed and
Speaker 3: changed by it, and usually in very positive ways, you know.
Speaker 3: I think that's its therapeutic use, is that the effects,
Speaker 3: you know, this this it changes your perspective basically, and
Speaker 3: it lets you step out of your ordinary reference frame
Speaker 3: and look at things from a little different through a
Speaker 3: different lens temporarily, And it's a useful lens. And sometimes
Speaker 3: you wonder, you know, it's like before you were staring
Speaker 3: through a smudge lens, you know, getting I think in
Speaker 3: ordinary reality it's kind of a you know, a distortion
Speaker 3: of reality in some ways. And and psychedelics can be
Speaker 3: like psychic wind decks, you know, they let you clear
Speaker 3: the clear the lens and see things more clearly.
Speaker 1: There we go, Sorry it was muted. Yeah, it's exactly.
Speaker 1: If I have a good experience or profound experience, it's
Speaker 1: like I've had a great therapy session. It's like having
Speaker 1: a little therapist in my head for a few hours,
Speaker 1: and the best one I've ever had. You know, they
Speaker 1: could get down to the route and tell you where
Speaker 1: you're screwing up, and really point out what going on
Speaker 1: and even the worst, like you know, some of the
Speaker 1: worst trips or experience that I've had work, it gets scary.
Speaker 1: At the end, I come out and I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: glad that happened because I learned something from that. I
Speaker 1: learned something about myself and you know, the experience and everything.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like a therapy session going on. It's great,
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about what is actually going
Speaker 1: on in the brain because isn't there been studies where,
Speaker 1: you know, under the influence, the brain displays less activity
Speaker 1: when being monitored.
Speaker 3: Yes, there is. It's complicated, you know, like everything about neuroscience,
Speaker 3: it's complicated. But under some conditions, it's not so much
Speaker 3: that it generates less activity, but there's less connectivity between
Speaker 3: different parts of the brain. It seems like, you know,
Speaker 3: the brain, like almost all biological systems, is based on
Speaker 3: feedback loops and homeostasis and all that, and you know,
Speaker 3: we're genetically and evolutionarily and personally programmed to kind of
Speaker 3: maintain an even keel if you will, and you know,
Speaker 3: and that's useful. That's what they call the default mode
Speaker 3: network these days in neuroscience. It's basically a set of
Speaker 3: behaviors that you that you enact for you know, for
Speaker 3: ordinary states of consciousness. Just to get through every day,
Speaker 3: you know, you have to stay focused and pretty much
Speaker 3: on what's happening, pay attention and so on, so you
Speaker 3: don't you know, walk into walls or step in front
Speaker 3: of buses or things like that. You know, that's not
Speaker 3: not convenient. But the default mode network also is designed well,
Speaker 3: it's not designed. It's not like anyone designed this thing.
Speaker 3: Just just the way it works is it shields you
Speaker 3: from a lot of It keeps you in an ordinary
Speaker 3: more or less an ordinary state of reality, and that's
Speaker 3: where we are most of the time, you know, But
Speaker 3: sometimes it's useful to step away from that, to step
Speaker 3: outside that reference frame, and that can help you have
Speaker 3: insights about yourself, about the nature of reality, about your
Speaker 3: relationship to reality, just things that are normally filtered out.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: The brain is very good at filtering things out. That's
Speaker 3: at least half its function is not to let information in,
Speaker 3: but actually block information so that so that you can
Speaker 3: make sense of the input that you do get. Otherwise
Speaker 3: you'd just be overwhelming, you know. But once in a while,
Speaker 3: under the right circumstances, and this is The important thing
Speaker 3: about taking some akadelics you have to pay a lot
Speaker 3: of attention to set and setting. You want to do
Speaker 3: it in a place that's appropriate and where you know
Speaker 3: you're not in danger, you're not in danger of disrupting
Speaker 3: other people. And basically you're in a situation where you
Speaker 3: can just surrender to the experiences, knowing that you've taken
Speaker 3: all the steps you can to make sure that you
Speaker 3: know you have created a safe set and setting to
Speaker 3: have it. And and so that's why they emphasize set
Speaker 3: and setting so much, because you know it is it
Speaker 3: is disrupting, that's the whole point. And so if you
Speaker 3: do that then and do it in a way where
Speaker 3: you can just surrender to it and let it happen.
Speaker 3: And you know you alluded before. I don't think there
Speaker 3: is such a thing as a bad trip in general,
Speaker 3: because you can learn from all of these trips, you know,
Speaker 3: and they can be scary. They can be scary, but
Speaker 3: that's where you know, planning the circumstances, the sentence setting
Speaker 3: comes in so that you take all steps to know
Speaker 3: and also where courage sets in. You know, there's a
Speaker 3: certain point. I mean, they can be scary, but you
Speaker 3: have to find the courage to just let go, just
Speaker 3: surrender to it, because the chances are when these things
Speaker 3: come up that are that are disturbing, there's a reason
Speaker 3: for it, and essentially you're being offered a chance to
Speaker 3: confront that, learn from that. And if you're in a
Speaker 3: if you're in an ideal setence setting, then it's much
Speaker 3: easier to do that, not that it isn't still scary,
Speaker 3: but a little less so because you don't have to
Speaker 3: worry about real world issues, you know, and and uh so,
Speaker 3: so that's that's what they say, you know, and sometimes
Speaker 3: in ayahuasca, but a lot of my experience has been
Speaker 3: with ayahuasca. But I've heard shaman say, well, you know,
Speaker 3: if you're confronted with the animal anaconda who comes to
Speaker 3: eat you, you know, you just jump in. You don't
Speaker 3: run away, you run forward it because these entities are
Speaker 3: fearsome but basically benevolent.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, that's amazing stuff. I want to talk about.
Speaker 1: You mentioned these entities. I want to talk about the
Speaker 1: contact experiences that are possible with psychedelics. Now, before I've
Speaker 1: even had any contact experiences using psychedelics, I had a
Speaker 1: contact experience through meditation. It was a very spiritual experience.
Speaker 1: I believe it was possibly a spirit guide of some
Speaker 1: sort that I was speaking with h but it was.
Speaker 1: It happened again after I started using psilocybin. A little
Speaker 1: bit after I had that experience. I was able to
Speaker 1: kind of recreate and speak again with this entity much
Speaker 1: easier this time after taking the psilocybin, and it happened
Speaker 1: a few times after that with you know, different types
Speaker 1: of entities. I think it's very interesting. It wasn't to
Speaker 1: me that I was talking to myself. I could very
Speaker 1: much tell a difference and an overwhelming feeling of like love,
Speaker 1: and these amazing aspects to it that you know, aren't
Speaker 1: part of a normal trip. You could say, you know,
Speaker 1: what do you think is really happening here? Are we
Speaker 1: accessing something outside ourselves to ours? This a part of
Speaker 1: ourselves that were that we're speaking with. What do you
Speaker 1: think this is?
Speaker 3: I think nobody knows. I think I think there are
Speaker 3: all kinds of of you know, speculations. So let me
Speaker 3: ask you these entities that you contacted, It's not always
Speaker 3: the same entity, right.
Speaker 1: No, different, it's different. It was two or three different
Speaker 1: types of entities over a few experiences, all benevolent, all very.
Speaker 3: Loving, always loving. Well that's good, yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I got lucky. All of these were
Speaker 1: very loving, very benevolent. They kind of sent these emitting
Speaker 1: feelings of love that I've never felt before. It was
Speaker 1: like a drug on top of a drug on top
Speaker 1: of it was really amazing, you know, And the communication
Speaker 1: was psychic, instantaneous, just spectacul.
Speaker 3: So you have you encountered different entities, but were there
Speaker 3: instances when you went back to an entity that you
Speaker 3: encountered before? I mean, did these things go through like cycles?
Speaker 1: Uh? Yes, I was well, I was able to, yes,
Speaker 1: speak with them at different times and they came back.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah. So you have the impression that somewhere out
Speaker 3: there whatever we mean, yeah, right right, like a pantheon
Speaker 3: of entities that you can can to on a more
Speaker 3: or less reliable basis, And you know, I mean actually
Speaker 3: to the same entities of different primes.
Speaker 1: See, I don't know. That's that's my whole question. I
Speaker 1: have no idea what I'm speaking with. I have only
Speaker 1: speculations and theories. But you know, based on conversations I've had,
Speaker 1: you know, it could be I don't know. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: why I'd love to get your thoughts on it.
Speaker 3: Well, my thoughts are as you know, uh, as as
Speaker 3: muddled as anybody's probably. I mean, people do have these
Speaker 3: encounters or parent encounters. But beyond that, what can you
Speaker 3: say about it? I mean you can't even say, well,
Speaker 3: they're out there? Well what do you mean by out there?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: Out where?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: And when you think about you know, one of the
Speaker 3: things something that psychedelics make you realize is there is
Speaker 3: these boundaries, these distinctions to treat. In there and out
Speaker 3: there are not really real. And you know, we have
Speaker 3: the realization that we're all one, we're all connected and
Speaker 3: and all of that. So this idea of out there
Speaker 3: in there, I'm here and these entities are out there,
Speaker 3: this is all part of this artificial reality that we
Speaker 3: construct for ourselves to make sense out of it. Do
Speaker 3: the entities exist outside your mind?
Speaker 2: Uh? Is it?
Speaker 3: You know? Are you really tapping into some other dimension
Speaker 3: we'll call it provisionally, or is this an aspect of yourself,
Speaker 3: that is that is revealing itself to you as though
Speaker 3: it were not yourself. That's the big question, and it's
Speaker 3: very hard to know. It's very hard to know how
Speaker 3: would you determine that? How would you be able to
Speaker 3: test that?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: My brother, you know, struggled with this when he was
Speaker 3: taking He used to take psilocybin pretty high doses by
Speaker 3: himself usually, and then he would get into these dialogue
Speaker 3: situations with whatever these entities were, and he would say
Speaker 3: exactly this, how do I know that you're real? How
Speaker 3: prove to me that you're real?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: And and he said, if you can tell me something
Speaker 3: that I can't possibly know, that I will be convinced
Speaker 3: that you're real. You know. But you can see the
Speaker 3: the tautology and the and the problems with that approach, because,
Speaker 3: you know, and the entities would say, well, if we
Speaker 3: do that, then you won't need to anymore. So I'm
Speaker 3: not going to tell you something that you can't possibly know.
Speaker 3: But but you know, the paradox is, how would he
Speaker 3: know what he couldn't possibly know without already knowing? You know, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's I think it's uh. I mean,
Speaker 3: there is this tendency, especially people in ceremony situations and
Speaker 3: so on, to project onto the medicine, you know, and
Speaker 3: to anthropomorphize the medicine and say, you know, at the
Speaker 3: time we've talked, people talk about mother ayahuasca all the time,
Speaker 3: that that sort of metaphor. I think it's it's okay,
Speaker 3: but it's it's important, you know, to realize this is
Speaker 3: probably a metaphor, you know. And and when you take
Speaker 3: something like ayahuasca, because it's so immersed in other cultures,
Speaker 3: traditions and so on, so there's a tendency to to
Speaker 3: adopt that perspective, you know. But we're not indigenous in
Speaker 3: the same way they are. Their view of it may
Speaker 3: be very different. I mean, you know, it's I mean,
Speaker 3: if entities are out there, it would be interesting to
Speaker 3: know that. But I think more importantly is whatever channel
Speaker 3: these insights come from, whether they come from outside entities
Speaker 3: or whether they come from some part of yourself that
Speaker 3: appears to be another entity. The you know, the question
Speaker 3: is what is the information good? You know, are you
Speaker 3: getting a message that makes sense that you can integrate,
Speaker 3: that you can benefit from some way. Isn't in other words,
Speaker 3: a valid learning experience, you know, And if it is that,
Speaker 3: then you can accept it and you don't really have to,
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's some other entity or some part
Speaker 3: of yourself doesn't really matter. In a certain I mean,
Speaker 3: we'd like to know, Oh, but it doesn't really matter
Speaker 3: in terms of the insights you're getting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you know,
Speaker 1: I tend to kind of lean towards probably is an
Speaker 1: aspect of myself. But still don't know, and it's very
Speaker 1: interesting to to kind of explore that. Before we move
Speaker 1: on from from entities, I want to get your thoughts
Speaker 1: on the machine elves that are reported through d m
Speaker 1: T experiences. Many times this is you think this is
Speaker 1: kind of along the same lines, because that has heard
Speaker 1: some pretty creepy experiences with these things.
Speaker 3: Well yeah, uh, I mean I think it's the same
Speaker 3: kind of thing. You know, this this perception of external entities,
Speaker 3: and yeah, you know, and and it also is I mean,
Speaker 3: it's caused the symptom of reading too much Taris but Kenna,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, he's the machine elf guy. I
Speaker 3: never saw a machine elves emails.
Speaker 1: Right, you have to talk to many who haven't, and
Speaker 1: some who have though you know it's.
Speaker 3: Their their minds have all been poisoned by really really
Speaker 3: you have to have to be careful, you know, because
Speaker 3: we do intend, we do tend to acquire these memes,
Speaker 3: and in part I think that's because you know, the
Speaker 3: I mean almost by definition, you know, these experiences can't
Speaker 3: really be described very well. So you know, in language,
Speaker 3: they're really meta linguistic or super linguistic kind of uh uh,
Speaker 3: you know, experiences, they're by definition ineffable, inexpressible. Uh. But
Speaker 3: we're linguistic species, and of course, you know, we try
Speaker 3: to grasp any kind of linguistic box that we can
Speaker 3: stuff these things into. Otherwise they're really scary, you know,
Speaker 3: because we can't. So there's a tendency to try to
Speaker 3: wrap language around this. In some ways the language is
Speaker 3: is inadequate, really, but it's it's almost irresistible to try
Speaker 3: to to try to do that just as a way
Speaker 3: of explaining it to yourself. So you know, and that's
Speaker 3: that's just the way we are. We're going to try
Speaker 3: to find metaphors that fit the experience. And and that's fine,
Speaker 3: I mean, that's part of that's a part of integrating it,
Speaker 3: you know, but you sort of have to remember and
Speaker 3: I'm sure you've had this experience yourself, with your own experiences,
Speaker 3: you know, the memories and the construction you take back
Speaker 3: with it, the resolection, recollection, you take back. It's you know,
Speaker 3: it's about as close too, you know, the actual experience
Speaker 3: as a portrait of somebody is to the actual person.
Speaker 3: You know, it's basically a map or it's a schematic.
Speaker 3: It's not so it's it's flat, it's two dimensional. It
Speaker 3: lacks that, you know, that full dimensionality that it has
Speaker 3: when when you're experiencing it, you know, I mean, when
Speaker 3: you're actually in the throes of it, being experienced. The
Speaker 3: the the language uh you know, impulses to to box
Speaker 3: everything into language is temporarily suspended, you know, and you
Speaker 3: can just have the direct experience and then later you
Speaker 3: have to spend time sorting it out and that's where
Speaker 3: integration comes in. But it also is where you you uh,
Speaker 3: you know, defuse I guess you could say, you know,
Speaker 3: the the power of the experience by putting it into
Speaker 3: an explanatory framework, you know, And it's okay to do that.
Speaker 3: That's just what we that's what we do. We always
Speaker 3: try to explain to ourselves. It's just important to remember
Speaker 3: that this is, you know, a pale reflection of what
Speaker 3: actually happened.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I understand now earlier we're talking about LSD.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of the strange and
Speaker 1: profound experiences I guess that I've had. Maybe you can
Speaker 1: address what could possibly be behind or going on there.
Speaker 1: As a teenager and in my early twenties, like I said,
Speaker 1: I experimented with LSD, and you mentioned that it's probably
Speaker 1: lower doses. Yes, but me and my friends probably took
Speaker 1: a lot of the lower dose, so it ended up
Speaker 1: being a higher dose a lot of times. So we've
Speaker 1: had some pretty profound experiences, including group hallucinations where all
Speaker 1: of us saw our friends had big mickey mouse hands
Speaker 1: at the same time, like about five or six of us.
Speaker 1: Things like we somehow thought about something moving on a
Speaker 1: table and it moved. I was able to do a
Speaker 1: bunch of front flips in a row, and I've never
Speaker 1: done that in my life before and never have since.
Speaker 1: I mean, just strange things that I can't really explain
Speaker 1: that happened to happen when a group of us would
Speaker 1: get together and do this stuff. Any any thoughts.
Speaker 3: On that, well, not really, except that it does go on.
Speaker 3: You know, these kinds of group group experiences and these
Speaker 3: shared hallucinations, if that was that's what they are. I
Speaker 3: mean this, This is not uncommon. This happens, for example,
Speaker 3: a lot with ayahuasca and probably with mushrooms as well,
Speaker 3: and so it's you know, it's like, uh, these group
Speaker 3: uh you know, these group sessions where everybody's tuned in
Speaker 3: more or less to the same wavelength and maybe there
Speaker 3: is some kind of a resonant field set up or
Speaker 3: some kind of a you know, some kind of a
Speaker 3: I mean, that's one way to think of it, where
Speaker 3: everybody is getting the same mean and seeing the same
Speaker 3: things that you know, essentially telepathy or some some version
Speaker 3: of that. And I guess it's uh, I mean, it's
Speaker 3: interesting that this that this goes on. Very hard to
Speaker 3: study though, because you you know, it tends to happen spontaneously.
Speaker 3: You can't really plan for it. And then when it
Speaker 3: does happen, I mean, if you wanted to study it,
Speaker 3: I'm not sure how you would set it up. But
Speaker 3: you can think about, uh, you know, trying to again
Speaker 3: like my brother's exercise with asking it to tell him
Speaker 3: something he couldn't possibly know. But you know, and these
Speaker 3: things do take place. I do not know. You know,
Speaker 3: there's no substitute for experience. That's the thing you have
Speaker 3: the experience and to determine if everyone was having that
Speaker 3: same experience, well, you can compare notes, you know, and
Speaker 3: yes it would appear. So what explains that on Is
Speaker 3: there a scientific explanation? You could say, well, you know,
Speaker 3: we're programming each other's pheromones, We've set up a pheromonal
Speaker 3: you know, environment here that we're all experiencing the same
Speaker 3: things more or less or whatever. But these are all
Speaker 3: these are all explanations after the fact, you know, and
Speaker 3: they don't have the immediacy that having the experience does.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating though, and especially you know, to have
Speaker 1: that that experience firsthand, and you know, to be able
Speaker 1: to be a part of that, it's it changes in
Speaker 1: many ways. I want to talk about the ancients and
Speaker 1: the possibility that psilocybin or psychedelics or any type of
Speaker 1: these these plant medicines could have been maybe responsible for
Speaker 1: some of the scriptures and writings we have about the
Speaker 1: spiritual experiences that some of the characters in the Bible,
Speaker 1: and you know, ancient text predating the Bible, Sumerian texts
Speaker 1: and beyond Egyptian could have been because they were having
Speaker 1: psychedelic experiences and having these type of you know, contact
Speaker 1: experiences like we were just talking about.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, well, now you know these use of the
Speaker 3: psychedelics in spiritual traditions like Dionysus, Eleusis and Christianity and
Speaker 3: you know, medieval witchcraft and all that. All of this
Speaker 3: is becoming like a cottage industry in terms of writing
Speaker 3: about it. You know, all kinds of people are writing
Speaker 3: about this. Now. It's you know, the original, I mean,
Speaker 3: the origins of all this was the book The Road
Speaker 3: to Eleusis, which was written by Carl ruck who is
Speaker 3: a classic scholar. Albert Hoffman, the chemists that discovered the
Speaker 3: LSD and R. Gordon Watson, the mushroom guy, and they
Speaker 3: came out with this book that speculated that at Eleusis
Speaker 3: there was a potion that was drunk. Well we know
Speaker 3: this much. Nobody's disputing that. The question There was a
Speaker 3: potion called the Kookian that was drunk in this special
Speaker 3: circumstances in you know, darkened room, and people had revelations
Speaker 3: and amazing experiences that we're not supposed to talk about.
Speaker 3: It was supposed to be a big secret. That's one
Speaker 3: of those kind of secrets that wasn't really a secret,
Speaker 3: you know, but it was something that people you know,
Speaker 3: made the pilgrimage to Eleusis at some point in their
Speaker 3: lives to have these these experiences. And the books that
Speaker 3: have been coming out, The Immortality Key by Brian mar
Speaker 3: esc sort of takes up where that left off and
Speaker 3: postulates that the you know, the Dionysian and Theosecynian mystery
Speaker 3: cults were uh, you know, using beverages, mainly beers. They
Speaker 3: were fermenting beer, they were putting all kinds of stuff
Speaker 3: in there, whatever came to hand. Occasionally they would put
Speaker 3: ergot in it. But whereas ruck And and his colleagues
Speaker 3: in the Road to Eleusis, you know, postulated that it
Speaker 3: was always ergot. It was prepared from an ergot containing
Speaker 3: ergot infested barley. That's how they made it. This later
Speaker 3: data seems to indicate that ergot and many other things
Speaker 3: were included in these in these preparations. But you know,
Speaker 3: definitely these things were used in even in early Christianity,
Speaker 3: and when which was mainly a matriarchal thing in the
Speaker 3: first two centuries a d. And then when the Council
Speaker 3: of Nicea was was was held I think that was
Speaker 3: the fourth century i D. They you know, they eliminated
Speaker 3: all that from the official transcripts. Basically, yeah, they didn't
Speaker 3: want to admit to it, but definitely these things were
Speaker 3: in those traditions, you know. Uh, And there's a lot
Speaker 3: of dispute. I was on a podcast just the other day,
Speaker 3: just left, just a couple of days ago, with a
Speaker 3: couple of guys that are scholars of psychedelics. They they
Speaker 3: represent themselves that way, a guy named Chris Bennett and
Speaker 3: Tom Hatsis. They've written many books about the history of psychedelics,
Speaker 3: and they are not that impressed with Brian's work. You know,
Speaker 3: have you read The Immortality Keith Okay, Well that's his thesis,
Speaker 3: and these these guys have you know, they disagree with
Speaker 3: him and some of what he postulates in part. I
Speaker 3: think it's because he in a lot of ways he's
Speaker 3: ignores their work. And there's nothing that you know, are
Speaker 3: often does. So there's nothing that is off of scholar
Speaker 3: if another scholar has disked their work or not acknowledged.
Speaker 3: But this is just another indication that, you know, these
Speaker 3: religions and Brian's work is interesting for a number of reasons,
Speaker 3: but not least of which it traces in his understanding
Speaker 3: of it. It traces the origin of these things all
Speaker 3: the way back to go Beckley Teppe, which is this,
Speaker 3: you know, civilization in Anatolia thirteen thousand years old and
Speaker 3: a monumental civilization. And they, as he described it, they
Speaker 3: were into fermentation. They had fermented beverages and it was
Speaker 3: basically a funerary death cult that they were preparing these things,
Speaker 3: and that those were spiked, you know, with various things,
Speaker 3: not always what we would think of a psychedelic sometimes
Speaker 3: hand bane and opium and this sort of thing. Are
Speaker 3: Chris Bennett, you know, has has written about the role
Speaker 3: that cannabis probably placed played in some of these traditions.
Speaker 3: So I think I'm not pretended to be a scholar.
Speaker 3: I haven't looked at it in the depth that they do.
Speaker 3: But I think the take home lessly is that these
Speaker 3: were experimentalists. You know, these people were making beer, and
Speaker 3: like craft brewers everywhere, they'd put different things in it
Speaker 3: to see what happened. So they just grab whatever was
Speaker 3: available and say, well what is this. So you got
Speaker 3: some pretty gnarly bruise out of this, oh man, hand
Speaker 3: bane and opium and you know, hashish and all of
Speaker 3: this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, some of those sound pretty good. But yeah,
Speaker 1: now they had Lately, you know, past ten twenty years,
Speaker 1: we've seen some major in advancements in you know, the
Speaker 1: medical industry looking at treatments for depression using psychedelics, as
Speaker 1: see articles coming out every day. So it's it's encouraging
Speaker 1: that that it's starting to actually be looked at. I've
Speaker 1: had friends get off of hard drugs using psychedelics and microdosing.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about this. When did this first start
Speaker 1: getting realized and recognized that, you know, psychedelics can help
Speaker 1: with so many things and be so beneficial for mental health.
Speaker 3: Well, it took long enough.
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 3: The thing is, there was there was very active research
Speaker 3: on psychedelics, particularly LSD in the fifties of the sixties,
Speaker 3: you know, and it was being taken seriously, particularly for
Speaker 3: treated alcoholism. There were there's a hostile little here in Canada,
Speaker 3: a couple of them that were basically hospitals for treating alcoholics,
Speaker 3: and they they were using LSD with great success, you know,
Speaker 3: back in the fifties and sixties. The guy that did
Speaker 3: that was Humphrey Osmond, who was actually the person. He
Speaker 3: was a psychotherapist. He's the person that turned on out
Speaker 3: to Suxley, and the person that coined the term psychedelic.
Speaker 3: Actually he's credited with that. So it's not like there
Speaker 3: was not a body of research. You know, at least
Speaker 3: LSD was by far the best researched one. But back
Speaker 3: in the fifties and sixties there was active research going on.
Speaker 3: At the same time, LSD was diffusing into society. It
Speaker 3: was escaping from the lab, from the links into society,
Speaker 3: and we're seeing things like the you know, Mary pranksters
Speaker 3: and the human Beings and Timothy Leary and all that.
Speaker 3: So this was a period of social disruption and change,
Speaker 3: and the psychedelics were part of that. And there was
Speaker 3: a there was a backlash. There was a reaction by
Speaker 3: the authorities, by older people, you know, and it was
Speaker 3: all about, my god, our kids are getting high on
Speaker 3: some substance we never heard of. You know, this has
Speaker 3: to be bad, you know, and so there was a
Speaker 3: big backlash that, you know, and it was disrupting society.
Speaker 3: Of course, society needed just that disruption of that, kind
Speaker 3: of like our society right now, you know, it needs
Speaker 3: a good slap upside the head to wake up. But
Speaker 3: that led to shutting down all formal research in clinical
Speaker 3: work with psychedelics, the lab work, the in vitro work,
Speaker 3: basic neuroscience, that sort of stuff continued, but even that
Speaker 3: slowed down. So it wasn't really until the early nineties
Speaker 3: when Rick Strasitan, actually researcher at the University of New
Speaker 3: Mexico as psychiatrist there, decided to investigate DMT. And he
Speaker 3: was at the time he was working on melatonin, and
Speaker 3: he was working on the role of melatonin, which is
Speaker 3: a pioneer hormone in regulating circadian rhythms and this sort
Speaker 3: of thing, and he got interested in DMT from that perspective,
Speaker 3: and he applied to the FDA to do a dose
Speaker 3: escalation study with DMT.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 3: That's really that marks the point when the door to
Speaker 3: human research began to open up a little bit. One
Speaker 3: of the things I think one of the reasons that
Speaker 3: he was able to get that study going is that
Speaker 3: he was not pointing to any kind of therapeutic use
Speaker 3: at the time. For him, it was a direct observational study,
Speaker 3: mechanistic study. Give these people, these subjects, increasing doses of DMT,
Speaker 3: and pay attention to their stories, you know, And that's
Speaker 3: really all he was doing. He was not postulating a
Speaker 3: therapeutic use. He was interested in mechanisms. So that work
Speaker 3: was done, and then it didn't really open up to
Speaker 3: research until about two thousand and six when Roland Griffiths
Speaker 3: group published the first paper on psilocybin as a mystical experience,
Speaker 3: and that was that was really the point at which
Speaker 3: the research began to expand and build on itself and
Speaker 3: so on. Rick's study stood out because it was early
Speaker 3: and people were you know, I mean, the results were
Speaker 3: very interesting in a lot of ways. The results were
Speaker 3: hard to make sense out of even for Rick, you know,
Speaker 3: because he found that at these higher doses, intravenously high doses,
Speaker 3: people were getting these near death experiences, alien abduction experiences,
Speaker 3: all this crazy stuff you know that can happen on
Speaker 3: d MT. And Rick was sort of you know, Rick
Speaker 3: is kind of a you know, he's basically a clinician
Speaker 3: in a sense, and he was coming at it from
Speaker 3: that angle. How do you write your report to NIH
Speaker 3: you know that you're that your subjects are having alien
Speaker 3: abduction experiences. That's not going to get you the next grant.
Speaker 2: That's not the.
Speaker 1: Right exactly.
Speaker 3: He finally reached a point where he just said, well
Speaker 3: that's what they're reporting. I don't know, you know, he
Speaker 3: discontinued his research and send his d MT back to
Speaker 3: NIH because he said, I can't make sense out of it.
Speaker 3: But Roland, of course had a whole team of clinicians
Speaker 3: and they were able to run these very well controlled
Speaker 3: studies on psilocybin and that's really what started it, you know,
Speaker 3: And and then it just grew from there as people
Speaker 3: you know, identified different conditions that it could address. And
Speaker 3: you know, the spectrum is very broad. I guess if
Speaker 3: there were such a thing as a you know, broad
Speaker 3: spectrum mental health medicine, psilocybin would be in you know,
Speaker 3: and the same way we have broad spectrum antibiotics. This
Speaker 3: is like a broad spectrum medicine for everything from trauma
Speaker 3: to addiction to depression to you know, well those are
Speaker 3: probably the main things, but that's ninety percent there of
Speaker 3: what people suffer from. And usually these things are you know,
Speaker 3: they often go together. So it's it's good that these
Speaker 3: things are being recognized, you know, because a lot of
Speaker 3: you know, the regular cyclopharmaceuticals, especially pretty much that we
Speaker 3: rely on the serotonin reuptake inhibitors the SSRIs, and they
Speaker 3: don't really in most cases, solve the problem. They just
Speaker 3: sort of band aid it over. And you know, psychedelics
Speaker 3: hold out the possibility that you can get to the
Speaker 3: root of these things and actually get cured, you know,
Speaker 3: and that's why they're so promising.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we probably wouldn't recommend people doing high doses.
Speaker 1: This is usually microdosing that's helping people with the with
Speaker 1: these you know, depressive problems. You know, what would you
Speaker 1: recommend for people who are interested in maybe looking into this,
Speaker 1: you know, as like a microdosing schedule or something like that.
Speaker 3: Well, there's lots of information about microdosing out there.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: The the microdosing guru to all this is a guy
Speaker 3: named Jim Fatomant, and he's written books about microdosing. Paul
Speaker 3: Stametz has some information on his website about microdosing. Ah,
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I'm convinced about microdosing myself. I think, uh,
Speaker 3: it may be a placebo effect in a certain way. Uh,
Speaker 3: And that's that's okay. Placebo effects are real, for sure,
Speaker 3: they do have an effect. But the problem with microdosing
Speaker 3: is there hasn't been a very rigorous study, you know,
Speaker 3: a well designed clinical study that shows there is actually
Speaker 3: an effect. There was one done somewhat recently in which
Speaker 3: it was shown that the microdosing had a beneficial effect
Speaker 3: I think on cognition is what it was. But then
Speaker 3: the placebo also had a comparable effect. So these things
Speaker 3: are hard to sort out in an experimental study design.
Speaker 3: You know, people may I mean I feel like if
Speaker 3: people feel like you know, microdosing LSD or well, microdosing mushrooms,
Speaker 3: if they feel like there's a benefit, then I don't
Speaker 3: see the harm in it. But I think they may
Speaker 3: be kidding them. But you know, it doesn't matter because
Speaker 3: you're not taking huge doses of it.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean I think for me personally, I
Speaker 1: never really got any benefit from microdosing. Personally, it came
Speaker 1: from taking a little bit higher doses. But you know,
Speaker 1: like you said, it makes sense. You know, higher doses
Speaker 1: have helped me a lot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and higher doses do. I think the danger of
Speaker 3: you know, like microdosing is that in some ways it's
Speaker 3: an excuse never to look around the corner and see
Speaker 3: what's really there. You know, people like to microdose, and
Speaker 3: that's comfortable and they don't have much of an effect,
Speaker 3: but at some point it's important to get the full effect,
Speaker 3: you know, and you'll be surprised, you know, of what's
Speaker 3: there to discover. So I think there is that it discourages,
Speaker 3: you know, it's a temptation to just stay at that
Speaker 3: low level and never really experienced the full spectrum of
Speaker 3: effects that these things can can bring about. And then
Speaker 3: I would say there is concern with respect to people
Speaker 3: are microdosing basically with either psilocybin or LSD. Those are
Speaker 3: the two main ones, and there's some concern about microdosing
Speaker 3: with LSD because of the this problem known as valvular hypertrophy.
Speaker 2: UH.
Speaker 3: It's a growth in the in the valve tissues in
Speaker 3: the heart that is caused by serotonin agonists. There's a
Speaker 3: particular serotonin sub sub a sub type of serotonin receptors,
Speaker 3: the five HC two B receptors, and LSD hits those.
Speaker 3: Most of these psychedelics hit those, and it leads to
Speaker 3: it can lead to this problem when you do it chronically.
Speaker 3: When you do it once in a while, it's not
Speaker 3: a problem. But when you do like microdosing is you know,
Speaker 3: two or three times a week, anyway, So constantly hitting
Speaker 3: that receptor may lead to this proliferation of valvular tissue,
Speaker 3: which is not reversible, you know, so it's somewhat somewhat scary.
Speaker 3: The only remedy is a valve replacement, now, you know.
Speaker 3: Having said that, I don't want to alarm people, you know,
Speaker 3: but they should be aware of this, and maybe if
Speaker 3: they want a microdose, I recommend psilocybin is a better
Speaker 3: thing to microdose with because the mechanism seems to be
Speaker 3: that LSD binds to the receptor in a unique way
Speaker 3: so that the pocket that it gets into in the
Speaker 3: receptor folds over it and it's hard for it to dissociate.
Speaker 3: So it's constantly stimulating that receptor, and that seems to
Speaker 3: be what is connected to this valvular hypertrophy. There were
Speaker 3: a couple of drugs back in the late nineties early
Speaker 3: two thousands that were taken off the market because of
Speaker 3: this effect. One of them was called Fennfann, and I
Speaker 3: think it was being given for anxiety or I'm not
Speaker 3: sure what, but it was actually taken off the market
Speaker 3: because of this effect. So, you know, probably Jim Fatmin's
Speaker 3: website talks about this. You can find literature about it
Speaker 3: if you look at the blog on the Hefter website,
Speaker 3: there's a there's a reference to this, and I should
Speaker 3: mention Hefter anyway if you have it already.
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, and your bio did.
Speaker 3: But yeah, okay, people can look at the Hefter website
Speaker 3: and in the blog there's a discussion of this, uh,
Speaker 3: this issue with Microdosi.
Speaker 1: To close out on today, I want to talk about
Speaker 1: you the mckinn Academy, what you're doing there and the
Speaker 1: Biognosis film that you're working on.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, yeah, So the mckinna Academy is this nonprofit
Speaker 3: I've found it a couple of years ago with some
Speaker 3: colleagues and uh and basically, as you can tell from
Speaker 3: the name, it's all about education. Originally, when we founded it,
Speaker 3: the idea was that in part we were going to
Speaker 3: a lot of what we were planning to do is
Speaker 3: do conferences and retreats in probably in South America to
Speaker 3: which is what we had been doing before. So it
Speaker 3: was just extension of what we were doing, but we
Speaker 3: want to wanted to formalize it as a nonprofit. Uh.
Speaker 3: And that was our original idea. And then about the
Speaker 3: time that we got incorporated, COVID hit and it made
Speaker 3: it kind of difficult to do any any traveling to
Speaker 3: do these conferences and so on. You know, Peru was
Speaker 3: hit as hard as any place with COVID, So we
Speaker 3: had to, uh, we had to pivot and try to
Speaker 3: create a strong online presence, which I think we've done
Speaker 3: more or less successfully. We've had various events, you know,
Speaker 3: podcasts and and virtual conferences and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: So that that is what we're doing right now, and
Speaker 3: trying to position our sales as a as an educational
Speaker 3: uh resource for learning about plant medicines and that that
Speaker 3: sort of thing. And we've offered courses and people can
Speaker 3: look at you know again, I can I can put
Speaker 3: it in the in the in the chat and it's
Speaker 3: basically just Machenna dot Academy and if people go there,
Speaker 3: they can look at the events and resources tabs and
Speaker 3: see what kind of stuff we've been doing. And Biognosis
Speaker 3: project is part of this, you know, this is this
Speaker 3: is our biggest project right now. And what we're trying
Speaker 3: to do the subtitle of Biognosis is we're trying to
Speaker 3: bridge ancestral wisdom, ancestral plant knowledge with contemporary plant knowledge. So, uh,
Speaker 3: what we're and our focus is on Amzian ethno medicine.
Speaker 3: So what we're doing now right now is we're trying
Speaker 3: we're making a series of documentaries that's going to kind
Speaker 3: of give a snapshot of the state of traditional medicine
Speaker 3: as it's been practiced in the Amazon in this sort
Speaker 3: of co you know, post apocalyptic, post COVID, post IAWA's
Speaker 3: guit tourism, post globalization environments. You know, these these indigenous
Speaker 3: indigenous communities are really impacted by a lot of this,
Speaker 3: but then the traditions survive, you know, they change and
Speaker 3: that's what they do. So I don't see these you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, the traditions are changing. It's not like it
Speaker 3: was ten years ago even or twenty years ago. It's
Speaker 3: but you know, it's worth documenting that. And it's in
Speaker 3: this particular series where we're trying to initially work with
Speaker 3: a person down in Peru in Akitos, who I've actually
Speaker 3: worked with him for forty years and he is the
Speaker 3: curator of the Iberia at UNAP and the University in
Speaker 3: University in Nacionale Amazonia Parduan in Iquitos, and he is
Speaker 3: he just has tremendous plant knowledge, you know, having lived
Speaker 3: there all of his life and then actually being trained
Speaker 3: as a scientist, so he brings both perspectives to it.
Speaker 3: And so we're trying to document what he knows because
Speaker 3: he never writes anything down right, So we're trying to
Speaker 3: kind of do our initial documentary about one and what
Speaker 3: he knows and what his environment is, you know, in
Speaker 3: his role at the university. But then you know, we're
Speaker 3: hoping to get funding for we have the funding to
Speaker 3: make that short documentary, then we're looking for support to
Speaker 3: make about six or seven more short documentaries, you know,
Speaker 3: thirty to forty five minutes that will document different aspects
Speaker 3: of the contemporary scene down there, you know, of which
Speaker 3: Ayahuaska is very important, but it's not the whole story,
Speaker 3: you know, so we want to look at difference, you know,
Speaker 3: go down there and look at how is this tradition
Speaker 3: being practiced now and especially under the impact of global
Speaker 3: warming and cultural disruption and all of these disruptive influences.
Speaker 3: So I think it's going to be a pretty interesting
Speaker 3: documentary series. We're hoping that working with a great uh
Speaker 3: production house in New Brunswick named Heming's House, and they
Speaker 3: have done films for Netflix and National Geographic and Discovery
Speaker 3: Channel and so on, so we're hoping that uh they
Speaker 3: can you know, we can put together a teaser reel
Speaker 3: essentially and they will pick pick this up, uh and
Speaker 3: and fund this series. That said, though, if any of
Speaker 3: your your fans, your constituents want to support the McKenna Academy,
Speaker 3: we welcome that. And and we are a five oh
Speaker 3: one C three nonprofits so we can even give tax
Speaker 3: deductions if you live in the States, and uh, you
Speaker 3: know we're you can you can read read about our
Speaker 3: plans on the website, what what we've got, the pipeline
Speaker 3: and so on. So yeah, we'd like you to take
Speaker 3: a look at it. And also even if you don't donate,
Speaker 3: just enjoy the content there. There's quite a lot of
Speaker 3: stuff out there. You know. We did a early in April.
Speaker 3: April was the actually March, I guess March this year
Speaker 3: with the fiftieth anniversary of the experiment at Lachererra which
Speaker 3: is kind of infamous. So we did an event around that,
Speaker 3: and we've done a number of events, you know, and
Speaker 3: podcasts and so on, so you know, this is what
Speaker 3: we do. Given the constraints of the time, you know,
Speaker 3: and we'd like to do in person conferences and maybe
Speaker 3: we can get to that later this you know, early
Speaker 3: next year. I mean, nobody knows that COVID keeps everybody guessing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but it looking forward to it. You've done
Speaker 1: fantastic work looking forward to the film, and I will
Speaker 1: put all those links in the description so the audience
Speaker 1: can go directly and check that out. Doctor mckinneth, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on. Fantastic information, and I'd
Speaker 1: love to have you back on sometime in the future.
Speaker 3: I'd love to come on. Absolutely great. We won't make
Speaker 3: a date, but will we'll encounter downstream and we'll do it.
Speaker 1: Again, definitely, definitely. Well, thank you so much again, fantastic
Speaker 1: information and until next time, everyone, have an excellent evening.
Speaker 1: We'll talk again tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right.
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