1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Bill Thomas from mindover Murder. Last week, Kristin 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,080 Dilly and I were interviewed for the Real Crime Profile 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,519 and Best Case Worst Case podcasts. We wanted to share 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,440 that episode with you here on mindover Murder. We hope 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,960 you enjoy it. It's an excellent interview with three highly 6 00:00:21,039 --> 00:00:25,879 experienced FBI agents and profilers. I think it's a fascinating 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,359 conversation all the way around. Kristin and I will be 8 00:00:29,399 --> 00:00:32,719 back with a regular episode of mindover Murder next time. 9 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of Real 10 00:00:50,039 --> 00:00:53,840 Crime Profile and Best Case Worst Case. And my name 11 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,280 is Kathy Canning Mell. I'm a retired FBI agent and profiler. 12 00:00:57,359 --> 00:00:58,799 And today with me is. 13 00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: O'Connell, a twenty five year veteran of the FBI and 14 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,200 a twenty year member of the Evidence Response Team. 15 00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:07,359 Speaker 4: And with me today is. 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,519 Speaker 5: I am Jim CLEMENTI retired at BI. 17 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,799 Speaker 6: Profile, former New York City prosecutor, write a producer of 18 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,319 Criminal Minds and blue Beard on Audible. And we have 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:21,920 two very very special returning guests, and they are Kristin Dilly. 20 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,439 Speaker 7: I am the co host of mind Over Murder. I'm 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,680 also a teacher, a writer, and a victim's advocate. 22 00:01:27,519 --> 00:01:30,519 Speaker 1: And I'm Bill Thomas. I'm the brother of Kathy Thomas, 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,120 who's one of the first victims in the Colonial Parkway murders, 24 00:01:34,159 --> 00:01:37,519 and co host with Kristin Dilly of Mind Over Murder. 25 00:01:37,879 --> 00:01:40,439 Speaker 6: Well, it's great having you back, and we were in 26 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:44,239 the middle of a very intense discussion about the news 27 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:50,680 that broke basically last week that Bill, your sister and 28 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:55,439 her girlfriend, Rebecca Dowski, Your sister, Kathy Thomas and her 29 00:01:55,519 --> 00:02:03,280 girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, were actually positive linked via DNA to 30 00:02:04,359 --> 00:02:07,400 the killer who has been already linked to four other 31 00:02:07,519 --> 00:02:13,120 victims of the Colonial Parkway murders, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. 32 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:19,120 And you were telling us, Kristin about the other cases 33 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,719 that might be linked to this same killer. So why 34 00:02:24,719 --> 00:02:28,039 don't you give us everything you have on that. 35 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 7: Yeah, for years, when Bill and I started working together, 36 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,599 we figured that there were going to be other cases 37 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,439 that were linked to the four original double homicides in 38 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,319 the Colonial Parkway murders case. And I quinned the phrase 39 00:02:44,479 --> 00:02:50,599 parkway adjacent cases because they fell right into the middle 40 00:02:50,719 --> 00:02:53,759 of the series of the Colonial Parkway murders. 41 00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 5: You mean in terms of time. In terms of. 42 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,159 Speaker 7: Time, yeah, absolutely so. If you were to draw this 43 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,680 case out on a timeline, for example, you would get 44 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,560 the nineteen eighty six murders of Kathy Thomas and Rebeccatowski, 45 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:11,360 the nineteen eighty seven murders of Robin Edwards and David Nobling, 46 00:03:11,759 --> 00:03:14,280 and then in between Robin and David and our next 47 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,639 set of victims, Keith Colincus Sandra Haley. In nineteen eighty eight, 48 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,840 you would find the cases of Brian Pettinger and Lorianne Powell. 49 00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:27,960 Brian Pettinger disappeared in December of nineteen eighty seven from Hampton, Virginia. 50 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,879 He was later found in January of nineteen eighty eight 51 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,960 in the Checktuck Creek, which is a tributary of the 52 00:03:35,039 --> 00:03:35,680 James River. 53 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 4: He was found. 54 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 7: Tied with rope and cause of death was blunt force trauma. 55 00:03:44,159 --> 00:03:47,520 And then about a month later, in February of nineteen 56 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,080 eighty eight, we had the disappearance and murder of Lorianne Powell. 57 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,639 She was found stabbed to death washed up on Craney Island, 58 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,919 which is a US Navy unitions area at the mouth 59 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:03,840 of the Elizabeth River. And then after Lauri and Powell 60 00:04:03,879 --> 00:04:07,000 was found, then you get to Keith call and Cassandra Haley. 61 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,919 So literally smack in the middle of this series, we 62 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,159 had these two cases and we figured very very early on, 63 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:18,160 these cannot be a coincidence. These have to be the 64 00:04:18,199 --> 00:04:22,839 same killer. And so in November we did find out 65 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,720 that Laurie Ann Powell's murder was linked to Ellen Wade 66 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:32,279 Wilmer Senior via DNA, and that was determined via the 67 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,920 sexual assault kit initiative from the Virginia State Police. 68 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:38,319 Speaker 5: And he was. 69 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,639 Speaker 7: Linked to Laurie through that sexual assault kit. So one 70 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,160 of our two Parkway adjacent cases has been found to 71 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:49,639 be linked to Wilmer. We are certainly hoping that Brian 72 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,120 Pettinger's case is sort of next on the VSP radar, 73 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:59,319 because I have to conclude, maybe reasonably maybe not that 74 00:04:59,399 --> 00:05:01,560 if he has been found to be a victim, where 75 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,240 thinking Brian probably is as well. 76 00:05:03,399 --> 00:05:06,879 Speaker 6: Yeah, and so let's talk a little bit kathy about 77 00:05:07,079 --> 00:05:10,759 how and why this offender. 78 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 5: If he is killing men and women, why would he. 79 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,399 Speaker 6: Do couples at one point and individuals at another point. 80 00:05:21,639 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 2: Well, oftentimes, as we've seen Jim, we see an escalation, right, 81 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,959 he probably didn't start off with a couple. He probably 82 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,959 started off with a single victim and then escalated from 83 00:05:31,959 --> 00:05:34,319 there to dumb. But that doesn't mean he can't go 84 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,959 back to murdering single victims in certain situations where he 85 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,120 targets individuals. 86 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,759 Speaker 6: Right, And I think I believe what's going on there 87 00:05:43,959 --> 00:05:48,399 is that he has obviously gotten he has a desire 88 00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:52,079 to kill, and the fact is that he doesn't need 89 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:58,439 any real parameters to kill. He obviously found a good 90 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:03,879 hunting ground. He as somebody who works and spends lots 91 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,240 of his time on the water. 92 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,519 Speaker 5: He knows those shores very well. 93 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 6: He knows what's going on in the little parking areas 94 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,720 late at night, and he knows that people who were 95 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,959 engaged in you know, lover's lane type activities are usually 96 00:06:19,959 --> 00:06:21,639 let's say distracted. 97 00:06:21,199 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 5: And they're not maybe as. 98 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 6: Situationally aware as somebody who might just be out there, 99 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,439 you know, looking at the sunset or whatever. 100 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 5: But the fact is that once. 101 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 6: He started killing there, I believe he just threw out 102 00:06:37,319 --> 00:06:41,399 a net. He wasn't targeting people. He didn't wait and 103 00:06:41,639 --> 00:06:45,800 follow someone go from their home or their work or 104 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,240 when they went out. He didn't necessarily follow them there. 105 00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:52,439 But he took advantage of the fact that they were 106 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:58,720 there and vulnerable, and those were the people he actually killed. 107 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,519 Speaker 2: I mean a lotistic. 108 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's very opportunistic. I think, you know, a lot 109 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,160 like Israel Keys for example, and and you know those 110 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,519 kinds of killers. They cast out a net. They don't 111 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,920 care who it is that gets caught in the net 112 00:07:11,959 --> 00:07:13,920 as long as they get an opportunity to kill. 113 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 5: Now, obviously, and I'm. 114 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,399 Speaker 6: Sorry for being graphic about this, but obviously there's a 115 00:07:20,439 --> 00:07:27,120 sexual component to this offender. But and but, but we 116 00:07:27,199 --> 00:07:30,759 can't we can't limit ourselves in terms of what we 117 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:35,480 think about as sexual activity, because for sexual status, for example, 118 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,600 the actual act of causing and witnessing the pain and 119 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,720 suffering of others is the sexual act for them. That's 120 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:46,439 what turns them on, that's what gets them off. So, 121 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,079 for example, if this guy was a sexual sadist, he 122 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,920 may very well have not even had to engage in 123 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,839 sexual activity to have a sexual experience for himself. And that, 124 00:08:00,279 --> 00:08:02,920 you know, we all think of it in traditional sense, 125 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,439 but it is not for many of the killers that 126 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:06,279 we've encountered. 127 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 3: Well, let me impose this to both of you, Kathy 128 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,759 and Jim the DNA that the FBI provided as their 129 00:08:14,279 --> 00:08:19,839 evidence for linking this murder to this offender was a small, 130 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,360 tiny trace amount of DNA on the bra clasp of 131 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:25,920 Rebecca Dawski. 132 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 4: So I think that that really throws all this right. 133 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 3: Into the area or the arena that you just outlined 134 00:08:34,519 --> 00:08:34,799 for us. 135 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think, yeah. 136 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,639 Speaker 6: I mean it's clear that you know, there is that 137 00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:45,879 is very circumstantial evidence that he did, unfortunately engage in 138 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,159 sexual activity and binding. 139 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: Through are sort of a consistency with this guy as well. Right, Yeah, 140 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,919 Rope burns around the wrists. 141 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,879 Speaker 1: And handcuffs were mentioned as well in the early going 142 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,320 that the marks on Kathy's risks could have been from. 143 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 4: Handcuffs or handcuffs, right. 144 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 6: And as we outlined in the Lover's Lane murder series, 145 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:17,200 we demonstrated how this could be accomplished by a single 146 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,879 offender because when you have a couple, uh, it's clear 147 00:09:21,919 --> 00:09:24,759 there's a relationship between the two people that if you 148 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,879 threaten one of them, you can control the other. So 149 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,200 for example, many times offenders will put a knife or 150 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,120 a gun to the throat or head of one victim 151 00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:43,399 and tell the other one to comply while they either 152 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,960 have them put on their own handcuffs or zip ties 153 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:53,720 or whatever, and or they then have sort of the 154 00:09:53,799 --> 00:09:56,559 drop on that second person and they're able to tie 155 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,919 them up. So it's very easy to control two people 156 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:05,879 with one weapon by one person. Now, that doesn't absolutely 157 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,320 rule out that somebody didn't help him at times, but 158 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:15,639 it is absolutely possible to do that with one person. Now, 159 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:21,440 over time, we've seen multiple types of weapons used. Again, 160 00:10:21,639 --> 00:10:25,200 that may be an indication of multiple offenders. However, it 161 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,799 can also be the fact that when he controlled the couples, 162 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,799 he used a gun, for example, but he didn't want 163 00:10:34,879 --> 00:10:37,679 to make a lot of noise because. 164 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:38,879 Speaker 5: Maybe he was. 165 00:10:38,879 --> 00:10:41,919 Speaker 6: Aware of another couple nearby, or maybe he was worried 166 00:10:41,919 --> 00:10:46,639 about traffic coming by, so he used a knife instead 167 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:51,799 to actually commit the murders. But in other cases where 168 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,679 the victims apparently ran, he may have used the gun 169 00:10:55,759 --> 00:10:59,399 because it extended his range. He couldn't use his knife 170 00:10:59,399 --> 00:11:02,279 in that case, and he had to risk using the 171 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,399 firearm even though it made noise and could have alerted 172 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:10,600 people nearby. So there are practical reasons why you might 173 00:11:10,639 --> 00:11:16,360 see multiple weapons by a lone offender in cases over 174 00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:17,240 the course of time. 175 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,279 Speaker 3: It's also important to note that he was not only 176 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,879 a waterman, which involves using a knife, using ropes, using 177 00:11:23,879 --> 00:11:26,399 all that kind of stuff. He was also a tree 178 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,879 trimmer and he did that extensively. And he was also 179 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,600 a hunter. And if we put all these places, all 180 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:36,840 these death scenes on a map, you can see that 181 00:11:36,879 --> 00:11:39,519 they all fall into one of those three categories. So 182 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:41,960 that's something else in my mind that ties them together. 183 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,759 Speaker 6: You're absolutely right, and you know we talked about that 184 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,279 in the show. I mean, because that waterway does give 185 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,879 him access egress and ingress. He can get to the 186 00:11:53,879 --> 00:11:57,320 crime scene very surreptitiously. He doesn't have to pull up 187 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,759 in a car, although he may have point because we 188 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,120 did discuss the possibility that he was acting as a 189 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:10,000 law enforcement officer to get to get control over these victims. 190 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,639 And we also discussed the fact that he could very 191 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,879 well be coming up from the water and he can quietly, 192 00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:21,759 you know, wore a boat there, and he could climb 193 00:12:21,879 --> 00:12:25,919 up the embankment, which in many areas was very short 194 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,720 and not very obstruction filled, and he could have come 195 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:36,360 up and snuck up and taken advantage of them very 196 00:12:36,519 --> 00:12:37,679 very quickly and easily. 197 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,639 Speaker 3: Kathy, I've got something for you, and I'm going to 198 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:46,600 have Bill and Aurora Kristen talk about it a little 199 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,080 bit first, and that is they've been in contact with 200 00:12:50,919 --> 00:12:56,120 Wilmer's family and the family has been unbelievably supportive. They 201 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,240 helped them materially and they and even the I watched 202 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,039 interviews where the neighbors are saying what a fine man 203 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,519 this person was and that he never did that. But 204 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,480 he never drank when these people never saw him drink. 205 00:13:10,519 --> 00:13:12,440 His family said he didn't drink. The neighbor said he 206 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,039 didn't drink. And my thought is, did he not drink 207 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,000 because he knew the monsters came out when he did drink. 208 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,200 But Kristin, if you could fill us in or Bill 209 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,200 a little bit more about the background we have on 210 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:25,279 this guy, that would be great. 211 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:26,399 Speaker 5: Well. 212 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: He was married initially for about six or seven years 213 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,840 to a woman, and I've spoken to his ex wife 214 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:38,279 several times. She said to me, Bill, it's almost like 215 00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:41,720 there were two Alans. There's the man that she met. 216 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:45,039 They were high school sweethearts, got married very young, probably 217 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,919 together for ballpark like six or seven years. They had 218 00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:51,799 two kids together, and then she initiated a divorce, saying 219 00:13:51,879 --> 00:13:55,279 I don't love you anymore, but she told us he's not. 220 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,879 He was never violent, he didn't drink alcohol. They were 221 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,960 like very kind of conservative, you know, and their friends 222 00:14:06,039 --> 00:14:08,879 used to teach them about it in high school because 223 00:14:08,919 --> 00:14:11,559 they were like an old married couple, even his high 224 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,320 school sweethearts. And she said, it's only when he went 225 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,639 down to Hampton, which is how she put it. And 226 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,559 Kristen filled me in that this is kind of a 227 00:14:21,639 --> 00:14:26,120 Virginia way of saying that, and she said, it's almost 228 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,480 like there was a whole nother Allen that we didn't know, 229 00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:32,399 almost like a doctor jack Les. 230 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:34,559 Speaker 5: Right. 231 00:14:34,679 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, well that is that's very common, and that's why 232 00:14:38,879 --> 00:14:44,000 many many neighbors and friends and even family members of 233 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,519 serial killers say they were a quiet person. They never 234 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,600 had He was that guy y E. T. K. 235 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: Was an elder in his church, right, people really respected him. 236 00:14:56,519 --> 00:15:00,639 Speaker 6: Yeah, And the fact is that they are smart enough. 237 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:03,440 These are the serial offenders who are smart enough to 238 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:07,799 hide their true intentions. And many of them many psychopaths. 239 00:15:08,159 --> 00:15:11,279 You know, psychopaths don't really feel human emotions, but the 240 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,799 smart ones notice it in other people and can mimic 241 00:15:14,879 --> 00:15:15,840 it very well. 242 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 5: And it sounds like this is what he was doing. 243 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:21,000 And you know, she must have. 244 00:15:22,759 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 6: Subconsciously picked up on this, and that's why she wanted 245 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,799 the divorce. She must have realized that there was something 246 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,279 going on because he was never violent to her, He 247 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,519 never did anything, never gave her any indication that he 248 00:15:36,559 --> 00:15:38,159 was a heavy drinker or that he was. 249 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:39,159 Speaker 5: Violent at all. 250 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 6: She must have into it it and realized that she 251 00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:46,759 needed to get away from him, even if it was. 252 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,639 Speaker 3: As simple as this. Before he went to the Hamptons 253 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,440 or whatever you call it, Kristen down to Hampton, Yeah, Yeah, 254 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,600 before he went there, he was a little more agitated 255 00:15:57,679 --> 00:15:58,600 and a little more. 256 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,559 Speaker 6: Tightly wound because he anticipated what he was going to do. 257 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, he could feel it building. He could feel it building, 258 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,039 and he had to let it loose. And then when 259 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,399 he came back, he would just be almost like a 260 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,200 boring pile of mashed potatoes. You know. 261 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,799 Speaker 1: It's interesting and sad too. The FBI had Wilmer and 262 00:16:19,879 --> 00:16:23,679 custody in eighty eight because his very distinctive truck was 263 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,759 spotted on the Colonial Parkway and the FBI was able 264 00:16:26,799 --> 00:16:31,200 to put that together together with citizen tips. You know, 265 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,039 they're interviewing couples who said they'd been approached by a 266 00:16:35,159 --> 00:16:38,360 very aggressive man, almost like in a blitz attack, which 267 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,840 Jim actually demonstrated for us on the show The Lover's 268 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:45,159 Lane Murders. How you you know, go real hard and 269 00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:48,600 organized all of a sudden, you're there at the window. 270 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,279 And a number of these couples said they had these 271 00:16:51,399 --> 00:16:58,120 very frightening encounters. When they searched Wilmer's home and his 272 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:05,759 truck and his boat, did find guns, knives, handcuffs, which 273 00:17:05,799 --> 00:17:09,799 is very key because they think that might have been 274 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:15,960 how Kathy was restrained. And so he checked a lot 275 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,079 of boxes. And then of course he was given two 276 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,319 polygraph examinations, and I'd love for you guys to respond 277 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,480 to this. He passed the first one, and then the 278 00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:30,519 top FBI polygrapher whom I've spoken to was now retired, 279 00:17:31,079 --> 00:17:35,119 gave him a second one, and he it was inconclusive. 280 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,480 I can't tell you if he's lying or telling the truth. 281 00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:40,880 But the polygraphic examiner said to me, Bill, we should 282 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,079 have never let him go. 283 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 6: Well, Bill and I think we talked about this at 284 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,960 the time, But the fact is that polygraphs are an 285 00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:54,039 investigative and an interview tool. They don't actually determine whether 286 00:17:54,079 --> 00:17:57,119 somebody is lying or telling the truth. What they determine 287 00:17:57,279 --> 00:18:03,039 is the stress levels increasing during the course of an interview. 288 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 5: And unfortunately, when. 289 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,319 Speaker 6: You have somebody who is a pathological liar, who is 290 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,440 completely narcissistic, who has no human empathy, and you're going 291 00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:16,440 to you're going to recognize those characteristics as part of 292 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:17,960 the psychopathy checklist. 293 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 5: If you have a psychopath. 294 00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 6: Who has absolutely no guilt or remorse about anything he's 295 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,880 ever done wrong, it's going to be very difficult for 296 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,839 that person to be outed during a polygraph. And although 297 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,319 the first time he passed, it was probably the fact 298 00:18:35,599 --> 00:18:38,240 that they did it again that may have increased his 299 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,119 anxiety anxiety level just a little. 300 00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 5: Bit, which made it. 301 00:18:43,559 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 6: Yes, and hopefully yes if the guy, because because it's 302 00:18:47,519 --> 00:18:51,319 really important, extremely important that the questions that are asked 303 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,599 by the polygrapher first of all, that there's not a 304 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,359 million of them, but secondly that they're very well crafted. 305 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,319 It's like now for the young people who are listening, 306 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,119 it's like the prompts. 307 00:19:01,839 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 5: That you have to use with AI. 308 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 6: You have to actually prompt it correctly to get the 309 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:07,599 right answers. 310 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,279 Speaker 5: And so what's important is. 311 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 6: That that poligrapher had the intuition that they never should 312 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,160 have let him go, and that intuition was absolutely right, 313 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,880 And just like his ex wives intuition was right on point. 314 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:32,119 I think people can actually detect when there is something 315 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,920 going on behind those shark eys. You know, there is 316 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:40,079 actually you know, they are able, the smart ones, they're 317 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,839 able to actually pull the wool over the eyes and 318 00:19:43,519 --> 00:19:47,440 you know, wear this mask that's very very impenetrable. But 319 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,640 people who spend a lot of time with them, and 320 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,880 people who are skilled at interview and interrogation should be 321 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,920 able to, you know, see that something's off and it 322 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,400 sounds like that's what happened in this shit. 323 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 4: We love to talk to his Yeah, exactly. 324 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 3: But Kathy, it should be noted that this polygraph examiner 325 00:20:05,839 --> 00:20:08,400 was very well respected and I believe they brought him 326 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,839 in from another division, didn't they build because he was 327 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,359 so revered in this in this in his ability to 328 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,079 you know, do a great job. So the fact that 329 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,960 he thinks that they should have had kept him in custody, 330 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,920 that's neither here nor there, because they obviously put in 331 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,519 the work to get a search warrant for his house 332 00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:32,079 search warrant for the outbuildings, search warrant for the vehicles, 333 00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:34,839 which is none of those things are really easy. And 334 00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:37,640 they did that and they found everything, and they probably 335 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,519 tested the you know, probably just under a microscope, tested 336 00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:43,880 the handcuffs for blood or anything like that, and they 337 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,160 may have found fish blood on the knives and stuff 338 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,680 like that. So they have to You've got to go 339 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,319 where the evidence leads you. And of course it's very 340 00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:57,319 frustrating and it's heartbreaking sometimes, but we it's just the process. 341 00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:02,079 Speaker 4: It's you know, it's not perfect. 342 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: Martin. You brought up a question. I'm sure some of 343 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,000 our listeners also have this question. Where did Wilmer's DNA 344 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,359 come from? If it wasn't in codis And I know 345 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,119 you're going to talk about that, Bill, Where did the 346 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,960 original sample come from? Was it through a search warrant 347 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,000 or a bandoned no company? 348 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: No, it's an interesting interesting very much. I know part 349 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,720 of the answer here, and we've actually been asking for 350 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,799 the last two years and we're having a difficult time 351 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:35,079 getting a more in depth answer. Wilmer died at home 352 00:21:35,319 --> 00:21:39,279 in his bed in December twenty seventeen. He was kind 353 00:21:39,279 --> 00:21:42,559 of estranged from his family, and no one was really 354 00:21:42,599 --> 00:21:44,559 in touch with him. So he was dead in his 355 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,680 bed for I think close twelve months. 356 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 4: Wow. 357 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: Now what the FBI and the Virginia State Police have 358 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,240 told us and I have to express some skepticism here 359 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,079 because I think something's missing. But let me tell you 360 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,640 what they've told us. They said that, but in order 361 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,440 to identify Wilmer's remains, he was in such an advanced 362 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,839 state of decomposition they weren't sure even who it was. 363 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,920 In order to confirm that this is Allen Wade Wilmer, Senior, 364 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,359 they tested his DNA and that confirmed that this was Wilmer. 365 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,880 Now what I don't get is I think it's seven 366 00:22:20,039 --> 00:22:24,759 years later. I think it's twenty twenty four. They test 367 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:33,319 Wilmer's DNA against a rape kit from Robin Edwards and 368 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:36,200 she was killed with David Nobling. This is incident number 369 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,680 two in the Colonial Parkway murders. And this is the 370 00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:43,079 Virginia State Police testing using a sake grant and they 371 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,200 got a match. And they also got a match to 372 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,559 a woman named Teresa Howell and Kristen and I were 373 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:53,160 not familiar with her at this point. She was murdered 374 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:57,039 in nineteen eighty nine in Hampton, Virginia and the Hampton 375 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,160 PD We're working on that. What I've never been able 376 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,400 to get an answer to, and I expect at some 377 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,160 point they'll answer the question. I'm not clear on how 378 00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:13,839 Wilmer moves back onto FBI and VSP radar, and I 379 00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:15,920 think it's twenty twenty four. 380 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 4: Because he never later moved off the radar. 381 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:19,519 Speaker 5: Well. 382 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: I got to push back a little bit here. They 383 00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:27,440 I don't think he was on their radar because they 384 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:33,240 didn't apparently work Wilmer from the time. 385 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 5: He was let go. 386 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,799 Speaker 1: Until twenty twenty four. I believe Wilmer's I know there 387 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:43,960 are one hundred and fifty persons of interest. I'm sure 388 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,000 his name was in the mix, but Wilmer and his 389 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,000 older brother, William Keith Wilmer, who died in April twenty 390 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:56,559 twenty five, who's a suspect in another unsolved murder in Virginia, 391 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,519 Mary Keyser Harding, which is actually remarkably simler to the 392 00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:04,519 Colonial Parkway murders, and that happened in nineteen eighty five. 393 00:24:05,319 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 3: Is that the one up at the cabin with the 394 00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:08,400 two gals that were together. 395 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: Also, No, this is one on the Rappahannock River. She 396 00:24:12,599 --> 00:24:16,799 was stabbed and her body was weighted down with fisherman 397 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:24,400 type equipment chains and found in the Rappahannock And I mean, what. 398 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 3: Kind of changs Kristen anchor chains, anchor chains gotcha? 399 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,319 Speaker 1: And weirdly, Mary Keyser Harding worked with Keith Wilmer, the 400 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,960 brother's wife, at the Lancaster Bank and they were very, 401 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:42,079 very good friends. These are two young married women at 402 00:24:42,079 --> 00:24:42,640 that time. 403 00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 6: So yeah, it sounds like it sounds like he fell 404 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:48,119 off the radar. 405 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,599 Speaker 5: And I know that we all know. 406 00:24:50,519 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 6: That the previous FBI agent that was the case agent 407 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,480 had another suspect and was focusing on them, and that 408 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,839 it can be as simple as that somebody's opinion that 409 00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:05,640 you know, And let me just say, I mean that 410 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,079 guy was a very good suspect, not only because of 411 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:16,200 his direct interaction and his apparent disdain for your sister 412 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:22,200 and her girlfriend, well her girlfriend and then your sister 413 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:29,480 by relationship, that there was a motive there. However, what 414 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:35,160 many agents and law enforcement officers around the world don't 415 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,319 understand is that serial killers don't need a motive, They 416 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,039 don't need a connection to the victim, they don't need 417 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,079 a reason to kill, and I think that may make 418 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,759 them look only at people who do have a reason 419 00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:54,079 to kill, and they look right past the guy who 420 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,839 who is a better suspect, I mean, a better suspect 421 00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:02,319 who is identified as being there, who had knives and 422 00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:06,759 guns and handcuffs and ropes. I mean, to me, that's 423 00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:09,559 a pretty good circumstantial evidence to focus on that guy. 424 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 3: Talking to your point about motive, Jim, When you think 425 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,400 about it, guys, if you're a child predator and you 426 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,960 kill children after you sexually assault them, your only motive 427 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,720 is getting off And at a very elemental level, that's 428 00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:27,319 probably what we're talking about here. 429 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 6: Oh absolutely, there's no probable about it. 430 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 5: That is what's going off going on here. 431 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 6: And I think there's you know, answering to be made 432 00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:39,400 for why he fell off that list and why it 433 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,400 took so long. 434 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 5: To get back to him. 435 00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:45,519 Speaker 6: Now, you know, obviously, you know, as we all have said, 436 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:52,119 you know, every couple of years, for the last two decades, 437 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,720 DNA technology has gotten better and better. Collecting technology has 438 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,079 gotten better and better, separating out multiple DNA samples and 439 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,240 being able to actually use a smaller and smaller sample 440 00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:10,559 to do a full DNA profile. All of that technology 441 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:14,039 has gotten better, and it does take, you know, some 442 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,599 time to get these cases done, and you know, not 443 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:21,319 every case can be done at the same time, so 444 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:24,559 you know, and there's also funding issues and all this 445 00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:28,799 other stuff and manpower and woman power issues. And I think, 446 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,599 you know, it is remarkable that even after all these years, 447 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,200 even after the guy has been dead for years, that 448 00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:40,079 the FBI still did pursue the case. 449 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 5: But I know that they didn't make you happy. 450 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 6: Along the way, Bill, and we'll talk a little bit 451 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:48,960 about that. 452 00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 5: Well. 453 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: It's often been behind the scenes an almost adversarial relationship. 454 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,079 And I've said on high level conference calls with the FBI, 455 00:27:58,599 --> 00:28:02,559 since when did the brother of the murder victim become 456 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,119 the enemy? And I said to them, you often treat 457 00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:10,799 me like I'm the enemy. And I had been very 458 00:28:10,799 --> 00:28:15,400 critical of the FBI and some of the delays and 459 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,920 problems that have happened within this case. I've admitted to 460 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,319 the FBI looked, I recognize I can be a handful, 461 00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:28,720 and I have criticized this investigation and some of the 462 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,960 significant shortcomings. For instance, they threw away Kathy and Becky's 463 00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:38,440 rape kits as medical waste per order of the FBI, 464 00:28:39,319 --> 00:28:40,960 eight years after they were murdered. 465 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,039 Speaker 3: Oh, Mike, I don't know that it was order of 466 00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:46,599 the FBI. What it is for our listeners is whenever 467 00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:48,880 you're a case agent on any of these things, as 468 00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:52,640 Jim and Kathy can attest to, obviously, we run out 469 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,200 of room all the time, and there's all kinds of 470 00:28:54,279 --> 00:28:55,839 evidence that can and should be. 471 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 4: That wasn't what it was. 472 00:28:58,359 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: That wasn't what happened. It was the evidence was sent. 473 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,319 Kathy and Becky's rape kits were sent in error to 474 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,599 the York Pecostin County Sheriff's Department, which is the agency 475 00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:15,079 that covers that they were working on another rape case, 476 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,680 and the evidence clerk from York Pecoston County reached back 477 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,960 out to the evidence clerk at FBI Norfolk and said, 478 00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:28,200 you included the Thomastowski rape kits. That's not the right case. 479 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,599 So they were told to put them aside. And then, 480 00:29:33,359 --> 00:29:37,400 and I've heard this directly from the sheriff of York County, YEP, 481 00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:42,079 they ended up in kind of this weird bureaucratic pissing contest. 482 00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:44,599 Where was it going to be? The FBI was going 483 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,839 to go back across town to pick up the rape kits, 484 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,119 or was York Becauson County going to send somebody over 485 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,559 and they got into a pissing contest, which happens, as 486 00:29:56,559 --> 00:30:00,039 we know. And then after a period of time, it 487 00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:04,519 may have been longer than a year, the FBI facts 488 00:30:04,799 --> 00:30:07,680 this is how far back we go a letter over 489 00:30:08,119 --> 00:30:14,200 to your ordering them to destroy the rape kits as 490 00:30:14,319 --> 00:30:20,279 medical waste. Now, as the chief medical Examiner Marcella Fierro 491 00:30:20,519 --> 00:30:23,759 said to me some years ago, mister Thomas, you never 492 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:24,720 throw away evidence. 493 00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 5: And I'm solved murder. 494 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 6: But so here's the thing, and this is the bridge 495 00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:34,839 between what Maureen said and what you said, Bill. 496 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,759 Speaker 5: The FBI did this. 497 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 6: No, a person in the FBI did oh. 498 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,519 Speaker 4: Absolutely, idiot, yeah yeah, yeah. 499 00:30:43,079 --> 00:30:47,799 Speaker 6: A complete idiot did this in the FBI, probably to 500 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,519 be able to administratively clean their slate. In other words, 501 00:30:53,839 --> 00:30:57,519 this was, you know, their problem, and the way to 502 00:30:57,559 --> 00:30:59,680 get rid of it is to just write a little 503 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:00,319 note and. 504 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,359 Speaker 5: Say, get rid of it. 505 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 6: They had nothing to do with the investigation, they had 506 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,759 nothing to do with any kind of understanding of what 507 00:31:08,839 --> 00:31:09,839 was really going on. 508 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 5: And they didn't give it. Damn. They just did it. 509 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,279 Speaker 6: And that you know, unfortunately puts a stain on the 510 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:15,960 whole FBI. 511 00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 5: Yeah. 512 00:31:16,759 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 4: Absolutely, But what year was that bill? 513 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:22,279 Speaker 1: That was in nineteen ninety four, so it would have 514 00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:23,200 been eight years. 515 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 4: Yea, if DNA was brand new. 516 00:31:24,839 --> 00:31:31,359 Speaker 3: So this idiot didn't even understand that DNA was the greatest. 517 00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:34,559 Speaker 4: Too well ever known to law enforcement. Exactly, that keeps 518 00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:36,240 on giving really well. 519 00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: And the medical examiner said to me when I discovered 520 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,720 this in two thousand and nine, she said to me, 521 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,920 mister Thomas, it does appear that your sister and Missdowski 522 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,200 were not raped according to the findings. But she said, 523 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,720 you never know what test will come on in twenty ten. 524 00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:57,519 She said, yeah, that will be more refined. It's actually 525 00:31:57,559 --> 00:32:02,839 she was very precient because this is exactly what happened Jory. 526 00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. 527 00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:07,519 Speaker 1: She said that these tests are getting more and more refined, 528 00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:12,839 and we're able to find DNA from smaller and smaller amounts. 529 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,519 It's amazing. She was like describing something that was years out. 530 00:32:18,599 --> 00:32:21,039 And she said, she said to me flat out, she said, 531 00:32:21,119 --> 00:32:23,480 I don't care what the FBI is saying. This should 532 00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:24,640 have never happened. 533 00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 6: Of course, it should have never happened. Like I said, 534 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,720 it was some idiot who did it. But there's another problem, 535 00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:33,759 another technical problem with COTIS. 536 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 5: Can you talk about that? 537 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:41,519 Speaker 1: Oh boy, okay, okay, I take it that. Yes, yes, Well, 538 00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:46,279 this is Kristin and I both, like you know, want 539 00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:49,720 to jump into this. Let me explain, because Alan Wade 540 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,200 Wilmer Senior was never convicted of a crime. According to 541 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,759 Commonwealth of Virginia law, his DNA cannot be put into 542 00:32:59,799 --> 00:33:03,519 the COTIS system. He was never charged with a crime. 543 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,920 He's been dead since twenty and seventeen. 544 00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 6: Been dead since before he was linked to these murders, correct, 545 00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:15,720 So they're not going to try him. 546 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,559 Speaker 1: Right, No one's going to court here. So Kristin and I, 547 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,680 along with the other families are intending to try to 548 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,599 focus on getting Virginia should change this law because this 549 00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:34,519 is crazy. Why do the rights of a dead serial 550 00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:38,440 killer now linked to six homicides? And we believe very 551 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,960 strongly more are coming. I believe that, yeah, why do 552 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:49,200 this dead guy's rights supersede the rights of the families 553 00:33:49,359 --> 00:33:54,279 to in this case and in others to proceed with 554 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,440 a broad search. They're doing one to one comparisons and 555 00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:02,839 are case agent, our new case agent is actually going 556 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,880 out and meeting with cold case investigators around Virginia to 557 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,880 see if they will go back and take a look 558 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,360 at their cold cases to see if they can be 559 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:13,920 tested against Wilmer's DNA. 560 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 3: So I'm going to talk for a second about the 561 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,559 limitations of that and what that actually means, Bill, because 562 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,880 it's a really good point that you just made. So 563 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,760 when a person is convicted of a felony and their 564 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,920 DNA is put in the system, anytime anyone in the 565 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,760 country puts DNA into that system, it'll ping off the 566 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,039 national database. And it's something that the Bureau developed this program. 567 00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:42,480 It's absolutely outstanding. Now, what Bill is talking about is 568 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,920 small police departments with an unsolved murder can if they want, 569 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,719 and if they're aware of it, do a one to 570 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,519 one comparison, which they have to pay for, which is 571 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:56,239 hundreds and hundreds of dollars to compare it to this 572 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,679 DNA from the VSP or whoever has it, or maybe 573 00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:05,440 get with the FBI. It's just it's it's clunky at best, 574 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,079 and and you know, I understand that it's a state 575 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:16,360 law well with the Commonwealth of Virginia, but as a lawyer, Jim, 576 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,920 what about there's no way. 577 00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:23,679 Speaker 4: I mean, there's no way we can do anything about it. 578 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 6: Well aatterly, actually, the state of Virginia and the federal 579 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,079 government they can, they can still charge him. They can 580 00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:34,159 still I mean, even though somebody's dead doesn't mean that 581 00:35:34,199 --> 00:35:36,159 they can't be charged with the crime. 582 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 5: And and I think. 583 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:44,519 Speaker 6: If if there are, I mean, yes, it's it's an expense, 584 00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:46,719 it's a lot of administrative. 585 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 4: Work, which is worth it though, right. 586 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 6: But you know, I think they can, you know, they 587 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,320 can get a judge to declare that his DNA should 588 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:57,440 be put into CODIS. 589 00:35:57,519 --> 00:35:58,159 Speaker 5: I mean they can. 590 00:35:58,639 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 6: You know, this is a I mean, laws are written 591 00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:07,280 and changed all the time because circumstances changed, and technology 592 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,639 changes and people's understanding changes. And I think that it 593 00:36:11,679 --> 00:36:15,599 wouldn't take the Virginia legislature much to put in a 594 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:20,159 caveat to that law that says, however, if somebody has 595 00:36:20,199 --> 00:36:23,719 identified and linked positively with DNA, that's what. 596 00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 5: We're talking about, the DNA, not. 597 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 6: Talking about putting anything else in there. But if he's 598 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:34,440 linked positively with DNA, then that DNA should be uploaded 599 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,840 to CODIS, and it would actually simplify the process of 600 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:43,079 other people linking these exactly, Colonial Parkway Jason cases and 601 00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:45,480 maybe other cases, because we have no idea where he 602 00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:47,679 traveled and what he did exactly. 603 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,119 Speaker 5: Know that he's a serial killer. 604 00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:51,199 Speaker 6: We know that he didn't need a motive to kill, 605 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,760 and we know that he was a prolific killer. So 606 00:36:56,079 --> 00:37:01,280 we only know about three or four years of his killing, 607 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,559 maybe six years of his killing, right the most. Well, 608 00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:10,239 it's like eighty six to eighty nine, right, really so 609 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:15,880 far right? So you know, generally serial killers in my experience, 610 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,079 and Kathy, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but 611 00:37:18,559 --> 00:37:21,920 they don't generally start in nineteen eighty six and stop 612 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,599 in eighty nine, you know, especially. 613 00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 5: When they live a lot longer. 614 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:32,159 Speaker 6: So you know there's probably more out there preceding eighty 615 00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:37,760 six and after eighty nine. So in this type of case, 616 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,320 there is a compelling public interest in adding his DNA 617 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,880 to CODIS. So I would, if I were you, Bill, 618 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:55,039 use your dogged persistence to hound the Virginia State legislature 619 00:37:55,559 --> 00:37:57,719 to adding a caveat to that. 620 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,519 Speaker 4: Law, and anything we can do to help, we will. 621 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 3: And I just want to go on notice as saying 622 00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:06,159 if and when, let's just say, when you get this 623 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:12,079 past or we get this passed. My prediction is Cotis 624 00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:16,000 will light up like Dodger Stadium, yes, with other victims. 625 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 1: Another law enforcement person who is now retired, said something 626 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,440 very similar. His phrasing is a little bit different. 627 00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 4: Involving swear words. 628 00:38:26,559 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: Well, he said, Bill, if they load Wilmer's DNA into CODIS, 629 00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:34,440 which he strongly supports, he said, it's going to light 630 00:38:34,519 --> 00:38:38,400 up like an f and Christmas tree. Yeah, very similar. 631 00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:40,440 Your phrasing's more elegant as usual. 632 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: I don't see how this differs much because there is 633 00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:50,679 a section within CODIS right that accepts DNA from unsolved crimes, right, 634 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,480 So we don't know if those individuals who had left 635 00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:58,800 their DNA to crime scene had a criminal conviction. 636 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,159 Speaker 6: So I know it's weird. 637 00:39:01,519 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, this doesn't make sense to me. 638 00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 4: Have no criminal history, they said, right. 639 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 6: Doesn't matter. 640 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 4: That doesn't matter, doesn't matter to me. I know, I 641 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:10,679 get it. 642 00:39:11,519 --> 00:39:14,519 Speaker 6: This is unknown DNA, right exactly. 643 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's worth mentioning too that. You know, 644 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,599 as Bill has said, the Wilmer family has been lovely 645 00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:24,880 and very supportive, and they are also wholeheartedly in favor 646 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,960 of putting his DNA into the artists. 647 00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:32,760 Speaker 6: They have said, you know, yeah, well you should, Bill, 648 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,440 you should team up with them and do some testimony 649 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,480 in front of the state legislature. 650 00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:40,119 Speaker 4: Will help you if need be. 651 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 6: We we really really appreciate the fact that Kristen and Bill, 652 00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:49,199 that you came on to real current profile and best case, 653 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,679 worst case and and hopefully we are also together on 654 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,840 mine over murder, because we really appreciate the fact that 655 00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:04,480 this has helped to get information out, real solid, legitimate information, 656 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:10,199 not disinformation out to the general public about how these 657 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,360 cases actually work behind the scenes, and what kind of 658 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,840 persistence pays off, and dogged persistence even more so, even 659 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,159 despite some real. 660 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 5: Pushback from law enforcement agencies. It's it's a pleasure to be. 661 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,599 Speaker 6: To be associated with you guys, and to see how 662 00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:38,840 much how much your you know, devotion to your sister, 663 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,880 Bill and to the other victims has actually paid off. 664 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 2: It's wonderful to celebrate this outcome, you know, of science, 665 00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:53,960 right and investigative expertise. And I know I don't like 666 00:40:54,039 --> 00:40:56,239 to use this word closure, but I know that it 667 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,400 gives some measure of peace, Bill, to you and your 668 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:00,119 loved ones. 669 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you. 670 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 4: But Bill does it? 671 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 3: Was it an interesting I imagine I kept thinking about 672 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,199 you ever since this happened, and I keep thinking about 673 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,519 all the theories that you had, and it's it must be. 674 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,199 It must be interesting for you to put them to bed, 675 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,920 so to speak, because you had you were so convinced 676 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,320 about one aspect or another, or this fits been perfectly 677 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,639 here but not here, and it had to be a 678 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,159 very difficult, interesting couple of days of process. 679 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was very I was surprised, although I 680 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,039 always thought Wilmer was a strong possibility, particularly after he 681 00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:40,519 had already been identified with one of the other Colonial 682 00:41:40,559 --> 00:41:43,800 Parkway murders, so that pair of people, Robin Edwards and 683 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,400 David Nobbling and then linked to Teresa Howell. And then 684 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,199 in November twenty twenty five, the Virginia State Police announced 685 00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:55,159 he'd now been linked to the murder of Lorient Powell. 686 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,960 So when they said, and this is something I really appreciated, 687 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,039 the sac started off the meeting by telling us what 688 00:42:03,079 --> 00:42:05,800 the news was. She didn't make us wait, and she said, 689 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,679 I'm going to cut right to the chase. Alan Waide 690 00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:11,320 Wilmer Senior was responsible for the deaths of Kathy Thomas 691 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:18,519 and Rebeccadowski. Now, interestingly, my counterpart from Rebecca. Dowski's family 692 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,280 has really struggled with this because he was very locked 693 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,000 into another suspect. 694 00:42:25,199 --> 00:42:26,519 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, And. 695 00:42:27,159 --> 00:42:29,199 Speaker 1: I don't want to, you know, talk about people who 696 00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:32,519 are still with us that were potential suspects. It's not fair. 697 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,760 But Bob really struggled with this news. 698 00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying. 699 00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:41,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know, you get like you say, Maureen, 700 00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:44,639 you know, you get it into your head that it 701 00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:47,960 could be this person and it makes perfect sense, you know, 702 00:42:48,119 --> 00:42:51,800 they usually do. But then they come back and say 703 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,440 it was Wilmer, and you're like, wow, Now I was 704 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,480 open to it. When she said it. I was surprised, 705 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,480 but not like falling out of my chair because I 706 00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:04,480 knew Wilmer was a strong possibility. And Kristin and I 707 00:43:04,519 --> 00:43:07,920 have brainstormed about this case for more hours than I 708 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:08,639 care to come. 709 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, only imagine. 710 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,159 Speaker 3: But this is Bill why I always say that, this 711 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,440 is it's why we always have to we have to 712 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:25,440 embrace this mindset of going wherever the evidence takes you, 713 00:43:25,559 --> 00:43:28,519 because otherwise, when you start saying, well, my gut tells 714 00:43:28,519 --> 00:43:30,400 me this, and I am I'm all about the gut. 715 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,480 I'll feel the gut and everything but if something tells 716 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,320 me to pivot evidence. 717 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,039 Speaker 4: Wise, you got to do it. It's the only. 718 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 3: Way to stay sane in this business because you know 719 00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:43,280 it's it's it's not easy, as you have experienced over 720 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:48,880 these last four decades. I just want to check in 721 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,800 and see how you're doing with that. And I'm not 722 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,400 surprised that Bob feels that way. 723 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll get through it. We're actually going to go 724 00:43:56,199 --> 00:44:00,920 back to the FBI and ask for more information and uh, 725 00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:04,280 you know they'll either share it with us or they won't, and. 726 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,639 Speaker 3: Ask for more testing. Why not, I mean, ask for 727 00:44:06,679 --> 00:44:10,679 the world, ask for the moon. We'll talk about it offline. 728 00:44:11,079 --> 00:44:14,119 Speaker 6: Continue your dogg your persistence, that's what. 729 00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:14,679 Speaker 5: You should do. 730 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 4: The victims. 731 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,320 Speaker 6: Thanks everyone and Maureen and Kathy for being here, and 732 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,480 thank you to all our listeners. And until next time. 733 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,800 This is real crime profile and best case, worst case 734 00:44:29,079 --> 00:44:29,760 signing off.