Speaker 1: Hey, it's Bill Thomas from mindover Murder. Last week, Kristin
Dilly and I were interviewed for the Real Crime Profile
and Best Case Worst Case podcasts. We wanted to share
that episode with you here on mindover Murder. We hope
you enjoy it. It's an excellent interview with three highly
experienced FBI agents and profilers. I think it's a fascinating
conversation all the way around. Kristin and I will be
back with a regular episode of mindover Murder next time.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of Real
Crime Profile and Best Case Worst Case. And my name
is Kathy Canning Mell. I'm a retired FBI agent and profiler.
And today with me is.
Speaker 3: O'Connell, a twenty five year veteran of the FBI and
a twenty year member of the Evidence Response Team.
Speaker 4: And with me today is.
Speaker 5: I am Jim CLEMENTI retired at BI.
Speaker 6: Profile, former New York City prosecutor, write a producer of
Criminal Minds and blue Beard on Audible. And we have
two very very special returning guests, and they are Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 7: I am the co host of mind Over Murder. I'm
also a teacher, a writer, and a victim's advocate.
Speaker 1: And I'm Bill Thomas. I'm the brother of Kathy Thomas,
who's one of the first victims in the Colonial Parkway murders,
and co host with Kristin Dilly of Mind Over Murder.
Speaker 6: Well, it's great having you back, and we were in
the middle of a very intense discussion about the news
that broke basically last week that Bill, your sister and
her girlfriend, Rebecca Dowski, Your sister, Kathy Thomas and her
girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, were actually positive linked via DNA to
the killer who has been already linked to four other
victims of the Colonial Parkway murders, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior.
And you were telling us, Kristin about the other cases
that might be linked to this same killer. So why
don't you give us everything you have on that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, for years, when Bill and I started working together,
we figured that there were going to be other cases
that were linked to the four original double homicides in
the Colonial Parkway murders case. And I quinned the phrase
parkway adjacent cases because they fell right into the middle
of the series of the Colonial Parkway murders.
Speaker 5: You mean in terms of time. In terms of.
Speaker 7: Time, yeah, absolutely so. If you were to draw this
case out on a timeline, for example, you would get
the nineteen eighty six murders of Kathy Thomas and Rebeccatowski,
the nineteen eighty seven murders of Robin Edwards and David Nobling,
and then in between Robin and David and our next
set of victims, Keith Colincus Sandra Haley. In nineteen eighty eight,
you would find the cases of Brian Pettinger and Lorianne Powell.
Brian Pettinger disappeared in December of nineteen eighty seven from Hampton, Virginia.
He was later found in January of nineteen eighty eight
in the Checktuck Creek, which is a tributary of the
James River.
Speaker 4: He was found.
Speaker 7: Tied with rope and cause of death was blunt force trauma.
And then about a month later, in February of nineteen
eighty eight, we had the disappearance and murder of Lorianne Powell.
She was found stabbed to death washed up on Craney Island,
which is a US Navy unitions area at the mouth
of the Elizabeth River. And then after Lauri and Powell
was found, then you get to Keith call and Cassandra Haley.
So literally smack in the middle of this series, we
had these two cases and we figured very very early on,
these cannot be a coincidence. These have to be the
same killer. And so in November we did find out
that Laurie Ann Powell's murder was linked to Ellen Wade
Wilmer Senior via DNA, and that was determined via the
sexual assault kit initiative from the Virginia State Police.
Speaker 5: And he was.
Speaker 7: Linked to Laurie through that sexual assault kit. So one
of our two Parkway adjacent cases has been found to
be linked to Wilmer. We are certainly hoping that Brian
Pettinger's case is sort of next on the VSP radar,
because I have to conclude, maybe reasonably maybe not that
if he has been found to be a victim, where
thinking Brian probably is as well.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so let's talk a little bit kathy about
how and why this offender.
Speaker 5: If he is killing men and women, why would he.
Speaker 6: Do couples at one point and individuals at another point.
Speaker 2: Well, oftentimes, as we've seen Jim, we see an escalation, right,
he probably didn't start off with a couple. He probably
started off with a single victim and then escalated from
there to dumb. But that doesn't mean he can't go
back to murdering single victims in certain situations where he
targets individuals.
Speaker 6: Right, And I think I believe what's going on there
is that he has obviously gotten he has a desire
to kill, and the fact is that he doesn't need
any real parameters to kill. He obviously found a good
hunting ground. He as somebody who works and spends lots
of his time on the water.
Speaker 5: He knows those shores very well.
Speaker 6: He knows what's going on in the little parking areas
late at night, and he knows that people who were
engaged in you know, lover's lane type activities are usually
let's say distracted.
Speaker 5: And they're not maybe as.
Speaker 6: Situationally aware as somebody who might just be out there,
you know, looking at the sunset or whatever.
Speaker 5: But the fact is that once.
Speaker 6: He started killing there, I believe he just threw out
a net. He wasn't targeting people. He didn't wait and
follow someone go from their home or their work or
when they went out. He didn't necessarily follow them there.
But he took advantage of the fact that they were
there and vulnerable, and those were the people he actually killed.
Speaker 2: I mean a lotistic.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's very opportunistic. I think, you know, a lot
like Israel Keys for example, and and you know those
kinds of killers. They cast out a net. They don't
care who it is that gets caught in the net
as long as they get an opportunity to kill.
Speaker 5: Now, obviously, and I'm.
Speaker 6: Sorry for being graphic about this, but obviously there's a
sexual component to this offender. But and but, but we
can't we can't limit ourselves in terms of what we
think about as sexual activity, because for sexual status, for example,
the actual act of causing and witnessing the pain and
suffering of others is the sexual act for them. That's
what turns them on, that's what gets them off. So,
for example, if this guy was a sexual sadist, he
may very well have not even had to engage in
sexual activity to have a sexual experience for himself. And that,
you know, we all think of it in traditional sense,
but it is not for many of the killers that
we've encountered.
Speaker 3: Well, let me impose this to both of you, Kathy
and Jim the DNA that the FBI provided as their
evidence for linking this murder to this offender was a small,
tiny trace amount of DNA on the bra clasp of
Rebecca Dawski.
Speaker 4: So I think that that really throws all this right.
Speaker 3: Into the area or the arena that you just outlined
for us.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think, yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean it's clear that you know, there is that
is very circumstantial evidence that he did, unfortunately engage in
sexual activity and binding.
Speaker 2: Through are sort of a consistency with this guy as well. Right, Yeah,
Rope burns around the wrists.
Speaker 1: And handcuffs were mentioned as well in the early going
that the marks on Kathy's risks could have been from.
Speaker 4: Handcuffs or handcuffs, right.
Speaker 6: And as we outlined in the Lover's Lane murder series,
we demonstrated how this could be accomplished by a single
offender because when you have a couple, uh, it's clear
there's a relationship between the two people that if you
threaten one of them, you can control the other. So
for example, many times offenders will put a knife or
a gun to the throat or head of one victim
and tell the other one to comply while they either
have them put on their own handcuffs or zip ties
or whatever, and or they then have sort of the
drop on that second person and they're able to tie
them up. So it's very easy to control two people
with one weapon by one person. Now, that doesn't absolutely
rule out that somebody didn't help him at times, but
it is absolutely possible to do that with one person. Now,
over time, we've seen multiple types of weapons used. Again,
that may be an indication of multiple offenders. However, it
can also be the fact that when he controlled the couples,
he used a gun, for example, but he didn't want
to make a lot of noise because.
Speaker 5: Maybe he was.
Speaker 6: Aware of another couple nearby, or maybe he was worried
about traffic coming by, so he used a knife instead
to actually commit the murders. But in other cases where
the victims apparently ran, he may have used the gun
because it extended his range. He couldn't use his knife
in that case, and he had to risk using the
firearm even though it made noise and could have alerted
people nearby. So there are practical reasons why you might
see multiple weapons by a lone offender in cases over
the course of time.
Speaker 3: It's also important to note that he was not only
a waterman, which involves using a knife, using ropes, using
all that kind of stuff. He was also a tree
trimmer and he did that extensively. And he was also
a hunter. And if we put all these places, all
these death scenes on a map, you can see that
they all fall into one of those three categories. So
that's something else in my mind that ties them together.
Speaker 6: You're absolutely right, and you know we talked about that
in the show. I mean, because that waterway does give
him access egress and ingress. He can get to the
crime scene very surreptitiously. He doesn't have to pull up
in a car, although he may have point because we
did discuss the possibility that he was acting as a
law enforcement officer to get to get control over these victims.
And we also discussed the fact that he could very
well be coming up from the water and he can quietly,
you know, wore a boat there, and he could climb
up the embankment, which in many areas was very short
and not very obstruction filled, and he could have come
up and snuck up and taken advantage of them very
very quickly and easily.
Speaker 3: Kathy, I've got something for you, and I'm going to
have Bill and Aurora Kristen talk about it a little
bit first, and that is they've been in contact with
Wilmer's family and the family has been unbelievably supportive. They
helped them materially and they and even the I watched
interviews where the neighbors are saying what a fine man
this person was and that he never did that. But
he never drank when these people never saw him drink.
His family said he didn't drink. The neighbor said he
didn't drink. And my thought is, did he not drink
because he knew the monsters came out when he did drink.
But Kristin, if you could fill us in or Bill
a little bit more about the background we have on
this guy, that would be great.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: He was married initially for about six or seven years
to a woman, and I've spoken to his ex wife
several times. She said to me, Bill, it's almost like
there were two Alans. There's the man that she met.
They were high school sweethearts, got married very young, probably
together for ballpark like six or seven years. They had
two kids together, and then she initiated a divorce, saying
I don't love you anymore, but she told us he's not.
He was never violent, he didn't drink alcohol. They were
like very kind of conservative, you know, and their friends
used to teach them about it in high school because
they were like an old married couple, even his high
school sweethearts. And she said, it's only when he went
down to Hampton, which is how she put it. And
Kristen filled me in that this is kind of a
Virginia way of saying that, and she said, it's almost
like there was a whole nother Allen that we didn't know,
almost like a doctor jack Les.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well that is that's very common, and that's why
many many neighbors and friends and even family members of
serial killers say they were a quiet person. They never
had He was that guy y E. T. K.
Speaker 2: Was an elder in his church, right, people really respected him.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And the fact is that they are smart enough.
These are the serial offenders who are smart enough to
hide their true intentions. And many of them many psychopaths.
You know, psychopaths don't really feel human emotions, but the
smart ones notice it in other people and can mimic
it very well.
Speaker 5: And it sounds like this is what he was doing.
And you know, she must have.
Speaker 6: Subconsciously picked up on this, and that's why she wanted
the divorce. She must have realized that there was something
going on because he was never violent to her, He
never did anything, never gave her any indication that he
was a heavy drinker or that he was.
Speaker 5: Violent at all.
Speaker 6: She must have into it it and realized that she
needed to get away from him, even if it was.
Speaker 3: As simple as this. Before he went to the Hamptons
or whatever you call it, Kristen down to Hampton, Yeah, Yeah,
before he went there, he was a little more agitated
and a little more.
Speaker 6: Tightly wound because he anticipated what he was going to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he could feel it building. He could feel it building,
and he had to let it loose. And then when
he came back, he would just be almost like a
boring pile of mashed potatoes. You know.
Speaker 1: It's interesting and sad too. The FBI had Wilmer and
custody in eighty eight because his very distinctive truck was
spotted on the Colonial Parkway and the FBI was able
to put that together together with citizen tips. You know,
they're interviewing couples who said they'd been approached by a
very aggressive man, almost like in a blitz attack, which
Jim actually demonstrated for us on the show The Lover's
Lane Murders. How you you know, go real hard and
organized all of a sudden, you're there at the window.
And a number of these couples said they had these
very frightening encounters. When they searched Wilmer's home and his
truck and his boat, did find guns, knives, handcuffs, which
is very key because they think that might have been
how Kathy was restrained. And so he checked a lot
of boxes. And then of course he was given two
polygraph examinations, and I'd love for you guys to respond
to this. He passed the first one, and then the
top FBI polygrapher whom I've spoken to was now retired,
gave him a second one, and he it was inconclusive.
I can't tell you if he's lying or telling the truth.
But the polygraphic examiner said to me, Bill, we should
have never let him go.
Speaker 6: Well, Bill and I think we talked about this at
the time, But the fact is that polygraphs are an
investigative and an interview tool. They don't actually determine whether
somebody is lying or telling the truth. What they determine
is the stress levels increasing during the course of an interview.
Speaker 5: And unfortunately, when.
Speaker 6: You have somebody who is a pathological liar, who is
completely narcissistic, who has no human empathy, and you're going
to you're going to recognize those characteristics as part of
the psychopathy checklist.
Speaker 5: If you have a psychopath.
Speaker 6: Who has absolutely no guilt or remorse about anything he's
ever done wrong, it's going to be very difficult for
that person to be outed during a polygraph. And although
the first time he passed, it was probably the fact
that they did it again that may have increased his
anxiety anxiety level just a little.
Speaker 5: Bit, which made it.
Speaker 6: Yes, and hopefully yes if the guy, because because it's
really important, extremely important that the questions that are asked
by the polygrapher first of all, that there's not a
million of them, but secondly that they're very well crafted.
It's like now for the young people who are listening,
it's like the prompts.
Speaker 5: That you have to use with AI.
Speaker 6: You have to actually prompt it correctly to get the
right answers.
Speaker 5: And so what's important is.
Speaker 6: That that poligrapher had the intuition that they never should
have let him go, and that intuition was absolutely right,
And just like his ex wives intuition was right on point.
I think people can actually detect when there is something
going on behind those shark eys. You know, there is
actually you know, they are able, the smart ones, they're
able to actually pull the wool over the eyes and
you know, wear this mask that's very very impenetrable. But
people who spend a lot of time with them, and
people who are skilled at interview and interrogation should be
able to, you know, see that something's off and it
sounds like that's what happened in this shit.
Speaker 4: We love to talk to his Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: But Kathy, it should be noted that this polygraph examiner
was very well respected and I believe they brought him
in from another division, didn't they build because he was
so revered in this in this in his ability to
you know, do a great job. So the fact that
he thinks that they should have had kept him in custody,
that's neither here nor there, because they obviously put in
the work to get a search warrant for his house
search warrant for the outbuildings, search warrant for the vehicles,
which is none of those things are really easy. And
they did that and they found everything, and they probably
tested the you know, probably just under a microscope, tested
the handcuffs for blood or anything like that, and they
may have found fish blood on the knives and stuff
like that. So they have to You've got to go
where the evidence leads you. And of course it's very
frustrating and it's heartbreaking sometimes, but we it's just the process.
Speaker 4: It's you know, it's not perfect.
Speaker 2: Martin. You brought up a question. I'm sure some of
our listeners also have this question. Where did Wilmer's DNA
come from? If it wasn't in codis And I know
you're going to talk about that, Bill, Where did the
original sample come from? Was it through a search warrant
or a bandoned no company?
Speaker 1: No, it's an interesting interesting very much. I know part
of the answer here, and we've actually been asking for
the last two years and we're having a difficult time
getting a more in depth answer. Wilmer died at home
in his bed in December twenty seventeen. He was kind
of estranged from his family, and no one was really
in touch with him. So he was dead in his
bed for I think close twelve months.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: Now what the FBI and the Virginia State Police have
told us and I have to express some skepticism here
because I think something's missing. But let me tell you
what they've told us. They said that, but in order
to identify Wilmer's remains, he was in such an advanced
state of decomposition they weren't sure even who it was.
In order to confirm that this is Allen Wade Wilmer, Senior,
they tested his DNA and that confirmed that this was Wilmer.
Now what I don't get is I think it's seven
years later. I think it's twenty twenty four. They test
Wilmer's DNA against a rape kit from Robin Edwards and
she was killed with David Nobling. This is incident number
two in the Colonial Parkway murders. And this is the
Virginia State Police testing using a sake grant and they
got a match. And they also got a match to
a woman named Teresa Howell and Kristen and I were
not familiar with her at this point. She was murdered
in nineteen eighty nine in Hampton, Virginia and the Hampton
PD We're working on that. What I've never been able
to get an answer to, and I expect at some
point they'll answer the question. I'm not clear on how
Wilmer moves back onto FBI and VSP radar, and I
think it's twenty twenty four.
Speaker 4: Because he never later moved off the radar.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: I got to push back a little bit here. They
I don't think he was on their radar because they
didn't apparently work Wilmer from the time.
Speaker 5: He was let go.
Speaker 1: Until twenty twenty four. I believe Wilmer's I know there
are one hundred and fifty persons of interest. I'm sure
his name was in the mix, but Wilmer and his
older brother, William Keith Wilmer, who died in April twenty
twenty five, who's a suspect in another unsolved murder in Virginia,
Mary Keyser Harding, which is actually remarkably simler to the
Colonial Parkway murders, and that happened in nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 3: Is that the one up at the cabin with the
two gals that were together.
Speaker 1: Also, No, this is one on the Rappahannock River. She
was stabbed and her body was weighted down with fisherman
type equipment chains and found in the Rappahannock And I mean, what.
Speaker 3: Kind of changs Kristen anchor chains, anchor chains gotcha?
Speaker 1: And weirdly, Mary Keyser Harding worked with Keith Wilmer, the
brother's wife, at the Lancaster Bank and they were very,
very good friends. These are two young married women at
that time.
Speaker 6: So yeah, it sounds like it sounds like he fell
off the radar.
Speaker 5: And I know that we all know.
Speaker 6: That the previous FBI agent that was the case agent
had another suspect and was focusing on them, and that
it can be as simple as that somebody's opinion that
you know, And let me just say, I mean that
guy was a very good suspect, not only because of
his direct interaction and his apparent disdain for your sister
and her girlfriend, well her girlfriend and then your sister
by relationship, that there was a motive there. However, what
many agents and law enforcement officers around the world don't
understand is that serial killers don't need a motive, They
don't need a connection to the victim, they don't need
a reason to kill, and I think that may make
them look only at people who do have a reason
to kill, and they look right past the guy who
who is a better suspect, I mean, a better suspect
who is identified as being there, who had knives and
guns and handcuffs and ropes. I mean, to me, that's
a pretty good circumstantial evidence to focus on that guy.
Speaker 3: Talking to your point about motive, Jim, When you think
about it, guys, if you're a child predator and you
kill children after you sexually assault them, your only motive
is getting off And at a very elemental level, that's
probably what we're talking about here.
Speaker 6: Oh absolutely, there's no probable about it.
Speaker 5: That is what's going off going on here.
Speaker 6: And I think there's you know, answering to be made
for why he fell off that list and why it
took so long.
Speaker 5: To get back to him.
Speaker 6: Now, you know, obviously, you know, as we all have said,
you know, every couple of years, for the last two decades,
DNA technology has gotten better and better. Collecting technology has
gotten better and better, separating out multiple DNA samples and
being able to actually use a smaller and smaller sample
to do a full DNA profile. All of that technology
has gotten better, and it does take, you know, some
time to get these cases done, and you know, not
every case can be done at the same time, so
you know, and there's also funding issues and all this
other stuff and manpower and woman power issues. And I think,
you know, it is remarkable that even after all these years,
even after the guy has been dead for years, that
the FBI still did pursue the case.
Speaker 5: But I know that they didn't make you happy.
Speaker 6: Along the way, Bill, and we'll talk a little bit
about that.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: It's often been behind the scenes an almost adversarial relationship.
And I've said on high level conference calls with the FBI,
since when did the brother of the murder victim become
the enemy? And I said to them, you often treat
me like I'm the enemy. And I had been very
critical of the FBI and some of the delays and
problems that have happened within this case. I've admitted to
the FBI looked, I recognize I can be a handful,
and I have criticized this investigation and some of the
significant shortcomings. For instance, they threw away Kathy and Becky's
rape kits as medical waste per order of the FBI,
eight years after they were murdered.
Speaker 3: Oh, Mike, I don't know that it was order of
the FBI. What it is for our listeners is whenever
you're a case agent on any of these things, as
Jim and Kathy can attest to, obviously, we run out
of room all the time, and there's all kinds of
evidence that can and should be.
Speaker 4: That wasn't what it was.
Speaker 1: That wasn't what happened. It was the evidence was sent.
Kathy and Becky's rape kits were sent in error to
the York Pecostin County Sheriff's Department, which is the agency
that covers that they were working on another rape case,
and the evidence clerk from York Pecoston County reached back
out to the evidence clerk at FBI Norfolk and said,
you included the Thomastowski rape kits. That's not the right case.
So they were told to put them aside. And then,
and I've heard this directly from the sheriff of York County, YEP,
they ended up in kind of this weird bureaucratic pissing contest.
Where was it going to be? The FBI was going
to go back across town to pick up the rape kits,
or was York Becauson County going to send somebody over
and they got into a pissing contest, which happens, as
we know. And then after a period of time, it
may have been longer than a year, the FBI facts
this is how far back we go a letter over
to your ordering them to destroy the rape kits as
medical waste. Now, as the chief medical Examiner Marcella Fierro
said to me some years ago, mister Thomas, you never
throw away evidence.
Speaker 5: And I'm solved murder.
Speaker 6: But so here's the thing, and this is the bridge
between what Maureen said and what you said, Bill.
Speaker 5: The FBI did this.
Speaker 6: No, a person in the FBI did oh.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, idiot, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: A complete idiot did this in the FBI, probably to
be able to administratively clean their slate. In other words,
this was, you know, their problem, and the way to
get rid of it is to just write a little
note and.
Speaker 5: Say, get rid of it.
Speaker 6: They had nothing to do with the investigation, they had
nothing to do with any kind of understanding of what
was really going on.
Speaker 5: And they didn't give it. Damn. They just did it.
Speaker 6: And that you know, unfortunately puts a stain on the
whole FBI.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, But what year was that bill?
Speaker 1: That was in nineteen ninety four, so it would have
been eight years.
Speaker 4: Yea, if DNA was brand new.
Speaker 3: So this idiot didn't even understand that DNA was the greatest.
Speaker 4: Too well ever known to law enforcement. Exactly, that keeps
on giving really well.
Speaker 1: And the medical examiner said to me when I discovered
this in two thousand and nine, she said to me,
mister Thomas, it does appear that your sister and Missdowski
were not raped according to the findings. But she said,
you never know what test will come on in twenty ten.
She said, yeah, that will be more refined. It's actually
she was very precient because this is exactly what happened Jory.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: She said that these tests are getting more and more refined,
and we're able to find DNA from smaller and smaller amounts.
It's amazing. She was like describing something that was years out.
And she said, she said to me flat out, she said,
I don't care what the FBI is saying. This should
have never happened.
Speaker 6: Of course, it should have never happened. Like I said,
it was some idiot who did it. But there's another problem,
another technical problem with COTIS.
Speaker 5: Can you talk about that?
Speaker 1: Oh boy, okay, okay, I take it that. Yes, yes, Well,
this is Kristin and I both, like you know, want
to jump into this. Let me explain, because Alan Wade
Wilmer Senior was never convicted of a crime. According to
Commonwealth of Virginia law, his DNA cannot be put into
the COTIS system. He was never charged with a crime.
He's been dead since twenty and seventeen.
Speaker 6: Been dead since before he was linked to these murders, correct,
So they're not going to try him.
Speaker 1: Right, No one's going to court here. So Kristin and I,
along with the other families are intending to try to
focus on getting Virginia should change this law because this
is crazy. Why do the rights of a dead serial
killer now linked to six homicides? And we believe very
strongly more are coming. I believe that, yeah, why do
this dead guy's rights supersede the rights of the families
to in this case and in others to proceed with
a broad search. They're doing one to one comparisons and
are case agent, our new case agent is actually going
out and meeting with cold case investigators around Virginia to
see if they will go back and take a look
at their cold cases to see if they can be
tested against Wilmer's DNA.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to talk for a second about the
limitations of that and what that actually means, Bill, because
it's a really good point that you just made. So
when a person is convicted of a felony and their
DNA is put in the system, anytime anyone in the
country puts DNA into that system, it'll ping off the
national database. And it's something that the Bureau developed this program.
It's absolutely outstanding. Now, what Bill is talking about is
small police departments with an unsolved murder can if they want,
and if they're aware of it, do a one to
one comparison, which they have to pay for, which is
hundreds and hundreds of dollars to compare it to this
DNA from the VSP or whoever has it, or maybe
get with the FBI. It's just it's it's clunky at best,
and and you know, I understand that it's a state
law well with the Commonwealth of Virginia, but as a lawyer, Jim,
what about there's no way.
Speaker 4: I mean, there's no way we can do anything about it.
Speaker 6: Well aatterly, actually, the state of Virginia and the federal
government they can, they can still charge him. They can
still I mean, even though somebody's dead doesn't mean that
they can't be charged with the crime.
Speaker 5: And and I think.
Speaker 6: If if there are, I mean, yes, it's it's an expense,
it's a lot of administrative.
Speaker 4: Work, which is worth it though, right.
Speaker 6: But you know, I think they can, you know, they
can get a judge to declare that his DNA should
be put into CODIS.
Speaker 5: I mean they can.
Speaker 6: You know, this is a I mean, laws are written
and changed all the time because circumstances changed, and technology
changes and people's understanding changes. And I think that it
wouldn't take the Virginia legislature much to put in a
caveat to that law that says, however, if somebody has
identified and linked positively with DNA, that's what.
Speaker 5: We're talking about, the DNA, not.
Speaker 6: Talking about putting anything else in there. But if he's
linked positively with DNA, then that DNA should be uploaded
to CODIS, and it would actually simplify the process of
other people linking these exactly, Colonial Parkway Jason cases and
maybe other cases, because we have no idea where he
traveled and what he did exactly.
Speaker 5: Know that he's a serial killer.
Speaker 6: We know that he didn't need a motive to kill,
and we know that he was a prolific killer. So
we only know about three or four years of his killing,
maybe six years of his killing, right the most. Well,
it's like eighty six to eighty nine, right, really so
far right? So you know, generally serial killers in my experience,
and Kathy, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but
they don't generally start in nineteen eighty six and stop
in eighty nine, you know, especially.
Speaker 5: When they live a lot longer.
Speaker 6: So you know there's probably more out there preceding eighty
six and after eighty nine. So in this type of case,
there is a compelling public interest in adding his DNA
to CODIS. So I would, if I were you, Bill,
use your dogged persistence to hound the Virginia State legislature
to adding a caveat to that.
Speaker 4: Law, and anything we can do to help, we will.
Speaker 3: And I just want to go on notice as saying
if and when, let's just say, when you get this
past or we get this passed. My prediction is Cotis
will light up like Dodger Stadium, yes, with other victims.
Speaker 1: Another law enforcement person who is now retired, said something
very similar. His phrasing is a little bit different.
Speaker 4: Involving swear words.
Speaker 1: Well, he said, Bill, if they load Wilmer's DNA into CODIS,
which he strongly supports, he said, it's going to light
up like an f and Christmas tree. Yeah, very similar.
Your phrasing's more elegant as usual.
Speaker 2: I don't see how this differs much because there is
a section within CODIS right that accepts DNA from unsolved crimes, right,
So we don't know if those individuals who had left
their DNA to crime scene had a criminal conviction.
Speaker 6: So I know it's weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 4: Have no criminal history, they said, right.
Speaker 6: Doesn't matter.
Speaker 4: That doesn't matter, doesn't matter to me. I know, I
get it.
Speaker 6: This is unknown DNA, right exactly.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's worth mentioning too that. You know,
as Bill has said, the Wilmer family has been lovely
and very supportive, and they are also wholeheartedly in favor
of putting his DNA into the artists.
Speaker 6: They have said, you know, yeah, well you should, Bill,
you should team up with them and do some testimony
in front of the state legislature.
Speaker 4: Will help you if need be.
Speaker 6: We we really really appreciate the fact that Kristen and Bill,
that you came on to real current profile and best case,
worst case and and hopefully we are also together on
mine over murder, because we really appreciate the fact that
this has helped to get information out, real solid, legitimate information,
not disinformation out to the general public about how these
cases actually work behind the scenes, and what kind of
persistence pays off, and dogged persistence even more so, even
despite some real.
Speaker 5: Pushback from law enforcement agencies. It's it's a pleasure to be.
Speaker 6: To be associated with you guys, and to see how
much how much your you know, devotion to your sister,
Bill and to the other victims has actually paid off.
Speaker 2: It's wonderful to celebrate this outcome, you know, of science,
right and investigative expertise. And I know I don't like
to use this word closure, but I know that it
gives some measure of peace, Bill, to you and your
loved ones.
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4: But Bill does it?
Speaker 3: Was it an interesting I imagine I kept thinking about
you ever since this happened, and I keep thinking about
all the theories that you had, and it's it must be.
It must be interesting for you to put them to bed,
so to speak, because you had you were so convinced
about one aspect or another, or this fits been perfectly
here but not here, and it had to be a
very difficult, interesting couple of days of process.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was very I was surprised, although I
always thought Wilmer was a strong possibility, particularly after he
had already been identified with one of the other Colonial
Parkway murders, so that pair of people, Robin Edwards and
David Nobbling and then linked to Teresa Howell. And then
in November twenty twenty five, the Virginia State Police announced
he'd now been linked to the murder of Lorient Powell.
So when they said, and this is something I really appreciated,
the sac started off the meeting by telling us what
the news was. She didn't make us wait, and she said,
I'm going to cut right to the chase. Alan Waide
Wilmer Senior was responsible for the deaths of Kathy Thomas
and Rebeccadowski. Now, interestingly, my counterpart from Rebecca. Dowski's family
has really struggled with this because he was very locked
into another suspect.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, And.
Speaker 1: I don't want to, you know, talk about people who
are still with us that were potential suspects. It's not fair.
But Bob really struggled with this news.
Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know, you get like you say, Maureen,
you know, you get it into your head that it
could be this person and it makes perfect sense, you know,
they usually do. But then they come back and say
it was Wilmer, and you're like, wow, Now I was
open to it. When she said it. I was surprised,
but not like falling out of my chair because I
knew Wilmer was a strong possibility. And Kristin and I
have brainstormed about this case for more hours than I
care to come.
Speaker 4: Yeah, only imagine.
Speaker 3: But this is Bill why I always say that, this
is it's why we always have to we have to
embrace this mindset of going wherever the evidence takes you,
because otherwise, when you start saying, well, my gut tells
me this, and I am I'm all about the gut.
I'll feel the gut and everything but if something tells
me to pivot evidence.
Speaker 4: Wise, you got to do it. It's the only.
Speaker 3: Way to stay sane in this business because you know
it's it's it's not easy, as you have experienced over
these last four decades. I just want to check in
and see how you're doing with that. And I'm not
surprised that Bob feels that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll get through it. We're actually going to go
back to the FBI and ask for more information and uh,
you know they'll either share it with us or they won't, and.
Speaker 3: Ask for more testing. Why not, I mean, ask for
the world, ask for the moon. We'll talk about it offline.
Speaker 6: Continue your dogg your persistence, that's what.
Speaker 5: You should do.
Speaker 4: The victims.
Speaker 6: Thanks everyone and Maureen and Kathy for being here, and
thank you to all our listeners. And until next time.
This is real crime profile and best case, worst case
signing off.