WEBVTT 1 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:44.479 Dire wave. The scientific method cannot justify the scientific method. 2 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:47.520 Therefore itself is a dogmatic. 3 00:00:47.119 --> 00:01:33.959 Respre submissions stood stop stop stop stop stop. 4 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:49.560 Stop stop stop stop stops stop stop stop stop. 5 00:01:50.640 --> 00:02:01.719 STA standings standing. 6 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:11.319 Assist. 7 00:02:14.360 --> 00:03:32.680 It's ssssss stop stops its stocks asses. 8 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.319 The Presenski model of techno crowd model was much more 9 00:04:55.360 --> 00:05:01.000 interested in incremental slocal babing out approach to bringing the. 10 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:02.319 Technocracy into being. 11 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:06.439 So they're not going to send the Homeland Security troops 12 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:08.759 to round you up and put you in a FEMA camp. 13 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:12.879 They'd much rather promote everybody being in mesched. 14 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.639 Video games, the Disney. 15 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.959 Gulog, the virtual reality gulog, all this kind of stuff 16 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.360 is in much better FEMA camp in your home. They 17 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:23.720 don't need the FEMA camp. 18 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:29.040 It's it's too messy, it's a big ordeal, and it's 19 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:31.040 all the nonsense of all. 20 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.600 The patriot crap on the radio. That's not gonna happen. 21 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:39.519 They don't need to the shadow of the global government 22 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.839 is already here, and as we said, it's in the 23 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:45.959 latter stages of the mopping up process. 24 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.879 To move it into the next phase ig between two 25 00:05:49.959 --> 00:06:35.600 ages of the next age. Once you have atheism. There's 26 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:39.040 not really any foundation. Anything can come and go. 27 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:22.120 Ship no sishlish elish a fish ship, fish ships, ship 28 00:07:23.680 --> 00:08:17.079 shipsh ash ash ash ash ash lash ships ship ship 29 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:52.360 shish ships, the storm of wish ship ships and ashsh 30 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:59.720 ash ash ash ash. 31 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:31.480 Welcome. I'm a little bit late, so it's not Snack's fault, 32 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:32.240 it's my fault. 33 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:34.519 Uh. 34 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:37.480 Let's see. I gotta move. 35 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:40.039 Me. 36 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:51.120 There we go, bathing that light baby, Here we go? 37 00:09:52.559 --> 00:10:10.559 Here he comes almost, he's almost here? M hm, can 38 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:10.960 you hear me? 39 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:11.120 Bro? 40 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:20.360 Should I rib it to you? Frog man? Can we 41 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:24.919 be heard? Everybody here? Is okay? Everybody hear me? I 42 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:26.600 don't know if he's used he may not have used 43 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:32.799 Scott yet. There we go? Can you hear me? We're 44 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:35.679 almost there? Hello? 45 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:37.480 Hello? Yeah? 46 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:40.919 Perfect? Yes? How you doing man? 47 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:42.679 I'm doing all right? 48 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:51.159 Can you speak up? A little bit? Is much better? 49 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:53.799 All right? 50 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:58.320 Welcome everybody. We've got our ortho bro from France holding 51 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:04.279 it down. He's the French. He's the I was trying 52 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:05.879 to come up with something clever. I couldn't. He's the 53 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:09.960 master French apologist. How's that? And he joins us tonight 54 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:15.840 to cover idols icons iconicalasm. What's up. 55 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.799 Hello, happy to be here once again, and yet today 56 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.360 you're going to cover a big topic itys a youte 57 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:30.679 history you theological ramifications, iconoclasm. 58 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.759 Yeah, you know we've done. By the way, if you're 59 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:38.000 new to Snax's material, you can follow him on Twitter. 60 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:40.440 I've got his link below. He and I have done 61 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:44.759 multiple streams now where we've covered histrionic women, so called 62 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.879 saints of the Roman Catholic era. We've covered our church, 63 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:54.120 We've covered the Jesuits, we've covered christology, the logos. We've 64 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:58.399 done multiple high quality streams. So I hope that you 65 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.519 will go check out all of the previous snack streams. 66 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:06.960 I don't know why these messages keep getting deleted. I'm 67 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:09.240 sorry about that. I didn't mean to delete that message. 68 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:13.600 There not averse. Tonight we're gonna talk about aconoclasm. Sneck 69 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:17.159 has done a lot of research in and covering new 70 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:21.759 historical material. He's really good at digging out this just 71 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:24.840 really obscure historic stuff. He's he's the master of that. 72 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:27.639 I have an old essay that I did just kind 73 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:32.080 of defending iconography from the Bible, So I'm gonna touch 74 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:34.679 on some of that and we're also going to get 75 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:38.720 into the heresy and motivations of iconoclasm where it comes from. 76 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:40.639 We're gonna try to touch on all of it, but 77 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.559 on our mind. Viewers, if you have superchats, the new 78 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.879 way to superchat is through stream Labs, so you can 79 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.759 ask your questions there through the superchats at stream Labs. 80 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:53.519 And we'll go ahead and get started here, snack. Where 81 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:55.919 do you want to start? What's what's the good place 82 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.399 that you think you've uncovered something worth getting to. 83 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:02.360 I think we should start from the beginning, from the 84 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:06.840 biblical times, and actually we should start in Genesis because 85 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:10.200 the first occurrence of the idea of the icon the 86 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:15.159 image is interestingly linked to Genesis, to creation and to 87 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:19.080 the fact that our God is a creator God. He 88 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:23.679 is interacting with matter. And that's why you see the 89 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:30.440 first departure between you know, iconoclasm and iconodulia, which is 90 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:36.960 what we practice. God being a creator is him interacting 91 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:40.559 with matter, so matter cannot be intrinsically bad, as many 92 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:45.080 gnostics believe. And that's why you will see that the 93 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:49.159 gnostics will actually believe that matter was created by a 94 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.159 demiurge or something like this, and therefore all matter is bad. 95 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:55.720 And that's why the also iconoclastic to an extent that 96 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:59.600 in Genesis you can already see interaction in the creation 97 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:04.759 of them. Specifically, Adam is in the image of the 98 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.320 and the rest symblance of God. So it's you already 99 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:12.639 have the term I can't present here. So from the beginning, 100 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:17.679 a conoclasm wasn't really a thing in you know, Judean 101 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:22.759 times and things like this, because because you have this 102 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:27.519 idea of God interacting with man, and you can you 103 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:30.120 can see it all throughout the Bible. So obviously idols 104 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:34.240 are bad. We don't like idols, and idols, according to 105 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:36.960 the Bible, are God that are that we made by 106 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:40.399 ourselves false gods. It can be ideas, and it can 107 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:46.559 also be statues or anything, or oftentimes they are referred 108 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:50.399 to as being gods of metal, wood and so on. 109 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:55.279 So you have the first distinction. And that's where many 110 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:58.200 people would you know, solely take the Bible. We say, 111 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.840 any graven image, any any painting and so on, it's 112 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:05.240 already an insult to God and we cannot we cannot 113 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:08.320 allow this. If you look a little bit further in 114 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:11.639 the Bible, you will we will see that God actually 115 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:17.639 a loose worship in a physical sense. It's a temple 116 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:23.600 of David, perfect example. Example, the tabernacle as well, full 117 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:33.720 of imagery, full of engravings, sculptures of angels and so on, 118 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:36.320 the arc of the cabinet as well. You can see 119 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.600 the exodus as well, give the brazen snack snake sorry 120 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:46.039 a serpent. And you can also see it a bit 121 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:51.360 later on in the Book of Daniel, chapter five. So 122 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:53.399 you have any any commonsence this before I go a 123 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.840 little bit further, just. 124 00:15:55.879 --> 00:15:58.720 To lay out that right away at the beginning, the 125 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:02.120 notion of man in the garden. And by the way, 126 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:05.360 this is another reason why genesis and creation is important, 127 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:10.200 is that we have to maintain the doctrine of man 128 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:15.399 as an icon of God. Image. The word is icon. 129 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.679 Man is an icon of God. That's what it means 130 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:20.600 to be made in the image and likeness of God. 131 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:24.080 In the teaching the Church fathers, the image is what 132 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:26.919 man possesses in terms of his reason and his faculties 133 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.360 and all that. And then the likeness is the presence 134 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:33.559 of the Holy Spirit, the deifying power, the uncreated energies 135 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.759 that man possessed and then lost when he fell. So 136 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:41.200 for the father's image and likeness go together, and when 137 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.519 Adam fell, he lost the likeness the theosis, so that 138 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.000 has to be regained, and that's why we are told 139 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:54.679 that Christ comes as the re establishment of that icon, 140 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:59.240 of that image of man as the type to prototype, right, 141 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.720 God being the archetype and then Man as prototype. So 142 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:08.000 that will be a consistent philosophical train of argumentation that 143 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.400 Saint John Damascus and St. Theodore the Student will use 144 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:19.240 in their defense of iconographic theology. But you're absolutely right 145 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:21.839 to go back to the garden that the beginning of 146 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:25.720 the rejection of man has made in the image of 147 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.960 God is actually inspired by Satan, and it's the original 148 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:37.119 attack on icons. Absolutely, it's Satanic in its origin. Yeah. 149 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:42.039 Correct, So we already established that icons are present, these 150 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:46.440 images are not idols, and they're present in the space 151 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:50.799 of worship. But now the question is we venerate icons 152 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:53.119 and where where can we find that in the Bible? 153 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:56.839 And I think Daniel chapter five is an excellent example 154 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:01.839 because so it's it's after and as a, it takes 155 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:10.519 over Jerusalem and Nebrakatin as A celebrates his victory with 156 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:15.279 the vases of the temple, and it desecrates them and 157 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:20.960 forces it gets killed a bit later on by God. 158 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.839 And how does it desecreate the vases? It de secreates 159 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:32.480 them by using them in a profane manner and praying 160 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.359 to false God, idols of wood, metal, and so on 161 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.880 with it. So we can see that there is a 162 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:45.680 veneration that is required of the objects of worship. There 163 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.279 are the veneration of the object of worship is already 164 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.119 present in the Old Testament. And we'll see that since 165 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:55.960 very early Christian times and at the time of David's Temple, 166 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:03.640 icons were depart of the worship. So here you know, 167 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.319 many pros and for example, will say, oh, veneration adoration, 168 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.240 there's no such distinction. But here we can see that 169 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:17.359 clearly people are killed because it did not venerates a basis. 170 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.160 Obviously they did not believe the basis. When Gods God 171 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:26.000 doesn't mand it to to you know, worship basis, but 172 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.960 to respect what is part of the liturgy, I hope 173 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:30.640 they disagree. 174 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.559 Yeah, yeah, I've got a bunch of examples of this too. 175 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:36.920 So if we look even in the Old Testament, right, 176 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:39.160 I mean, typically when Saya Protestant has a problem with 177 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.680 this idea that's, oh, the Ten Commandments, you can't do this, 178 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:45.720 can't have images, can't do that, you can't bow before 179 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:49.559 anything that's created, because they'll view it in this legalistic 180 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.519 way as if the action of bowing itself is the 181 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.359 root of the idolatry, when it's actually the motivation of 182 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:57.640 the heart that's the root of the idolatry, and the 183 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:01.119 bowing or the bodily express essions are just the external 184 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.200 manifestations of what is in the heart of the mind. 185 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:06.279 So it's not really so much about that. Because you'll 186 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:14.519 notice in let's see Genesis forty two seven, all the 187 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:21.160 Joseph's family bows and prostrates themselves before Joseph. In Second 188 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:26.000 Kings two fifteen, the prophets bow and prostrate themselves before Elijah. 189 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:31.279 And if you look at Romans thirteen seven, Paul says 190 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:37.000 to give honor or give honor to whom honor is due. 191 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:40.640 So there's nothing wrong with giving honor when honor is due. 192 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.920 And in the ancient world, there's nothing wrong with reverencing, prostrating. 193 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.119 Joseph even bows before Pharaoh. There's the example in the 194 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.759 case of the Ark of the Covenant, where Solomon prays 195 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.759 and everybody bows themselves towards the temple, prostrates themselves in 196 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:00.720 front of the ark. These were all created images. They're 197 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:04.480 all created things, the art, the tabernacle, the temple itself 198 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:07.480 is full of iconography. It's full of images of angels 199 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.000 and seraphim and so forth. So this is just based 200 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.000 on ignorance that people don't even know that the temple 201 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:20.000 itself was full of iconography and even the term if 202 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.119 you just think of this as an argument John Damascus makes, 203 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:24.079 I mean, just think of the word itself, like the 204 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:27.720 Bible itself is a bunch of letters, which are symbols words. 205 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:32.079 They're just another type of iconographic representation. So if you 206 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.640 have the word good or y HWH or l r D, 207 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:42.319 those are symbols that refer to God. So there's nothing 208 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:47.240 inherently wrong with created symbols referencing God. And in fact, 209 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:55.359 it's absolutely necessary meaningful conversation, meaningful discussion logos itself, right, 210 00:21:55.599 --> 00:22:03.599 logical meaningful transference of meaning loogie logic requires the ability 211 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:08.680 to signify divine realities in created forms. Right, So it's 212 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:13.599 just a stupid idiotic level of thinking to think that, oh, well, 213 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:17.519 the symbolic presentation of the image is somehow evil. But 214 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.079 the word that's also a symbolic representation, that's an image. 215 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:25.359 Words themselves are symbol images. They're they're good, but pictures 216 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:28.400 are bad. They're both pictures obviously. 217 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.759 Yeah, Like you know, that's what genes is important, because 218 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:38.240 if you have a god's interactive creation, there's already some 219 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:42.240 level of an international principle, you know, or at least 220 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:47.440 for us to understand it. Then we're gonna go a 221 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:50.000 little bit further in time, and you will see that 222 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:58.480 early Christian worship includes frescoes, includes this kind of explanations. 223 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:01.799 So did Judas too. By the way, I have a 224 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:04.039 screenshot of this that I'm gonna put up here. 225 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:06.240 Yeah, this is a very famous synagogue. 226 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:12.039 What is it do or Europa or something like that. Yeah, 227 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.160 and you'll notice there this is from some blog, but 228 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.880 ancient dress synagogues were filled with icons. Scripture required the 229 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.400 inside of the Jerusalem Temple to display icons of angels. 230 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.000 Icons in the Jewish Synagogue depicted numerous scenes from Scripture. 231 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:29.000 This is the Duo Europa Synagogue two forty four a d. 232 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.400 You'll see images of the Bernie Bush, the rescue of 233 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:35.759 Moses Miracle, the Water, Aaron, the Temple, Samuel and David, 234 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.640 Ark of the Covenant, Ezekiel's vision of the dry Bones, 235 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:46.279 and that the blog there has all those pictures. I'll 236 00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:48.799 put the link into the chat if anybody wants to 237 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:51.440 go look at the different images that that blog has. 238 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:53.599 I can't vouch for that blog. I don't know who 239 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:54.880 it is, just the one that popped up. 240 00:23:55.240 --> 00:24:00.440 Go ahead, yeah, so we can see that the time, 241 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:04.839 be it in Christian worship or Jewish worship, icons are present. 242 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.559 The only ones that do not have these kind of icons, 243 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:12.119 that do not allow images are the Gnostics. To these 244 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:15.519 are some some Christian consuls that are influenced by Gnosticism, 245 00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:20.079 like the concept of Elvira, which is influenced by gnosticisms 246 00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:22.720 that forbids images. It's the same consul by the way, 247 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:27.680 that forbids, which is the first consul that forbids priests 248 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.240 to marry. You know, so it's linked. You know, rejection 249 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.440 of the body is rejection of good point. Yeah, yeah, 250 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:39.519 completely linked. So at the time, you know, today Jewish 251 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:43.000 worship is more econoclastic, we'll see why, but at the 252 00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:45.039 time it did not exist. So if you look at 253 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:49.759 the traditions. There's a clear continuation from Genesis to Exodus, 254 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:54.799 to the time of Christ, to early Christian period to 255 00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:58.119 what we do today. But the first real religion to 256 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:06.079 institutionalize icono pleasant is Islam. So the rise of Islam 257 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:12.359 is linked to the their theology, and the rise of 258 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.559 icono pleasant is into the theology. 259 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:18.759 Well before before we jump to Islam, though, I want 260 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:21.720 to I want to illustrate that as this debate takes 261 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.240 place in the early Church, recall that you can go 262 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:30.599 back to, say, the first period of the post appstock 263 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.000 fought like right after the Apostles. You've already got justin 264 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:36.839 Martyr ieron As talking about the real presence of Christ 265 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:39.640 in the Eucharist. And so the real presence is also 266 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:42.680 connected to this debate because it stands to reason that 267 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.359 if the incarnation was real, and all those church fathers 268 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:50.599 that are defending the reality of the incarnation, it's directly 269 00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:53.359 connected in their argumentation apologetic to the doctrine of the 270 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:56.799 real presence. Right, so it only makes sense to argue 271 00:25:56.839 --> 00:25:59.880 for the real presence if Christ really did become incarnate 272 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:02.440 in the flesh, right, if the Son of God is 273 00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:05.480 incarnating human flesh. So there's a direct connection. If you 274 00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:09.240 look at Ephesus, when Saint Cyril is arguing against Nestorius, 275 00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:12.680 especially in the Anathemas ephesis, is very clear that the 276 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:16.119 argumentation for the reality of the second person that God 277 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:20.000 had assuming human nature is based on Cyril's argumentation about 278 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.640 the real presence. He says, you and Astorias, do you 279 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.079 eat the body, blood, soul, and divinity of a mere 280 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:28.599 man or of the Son of God. Right, so it 281 00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:34.000 necessitates the reality of the incarnation. Arguments based on the Eucharist, 282 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:36.680 the real presence of Christ, and the Eucharist, the real 283 00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:39.920 presence of Christ is an immediate destroyer of all of 284 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:45.200 the Protestant sort of gnostic iconoclastic argumentation because it's directly 285 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.559 connected to correct Christology. Then you'll see that when they 286 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:50.880 get up to the Seventh Council, and I see it 287 00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:53.440 two in seven eighty seven, when the debate is being 288 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:57.559 had about whether icons are blasphemous or whether they are 289 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:01.640 idolatry or whatever, it's always connected to a consistent argumentation 290 00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:05.960 about Christology and about the incarnation and the real presence. Right, 291 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.720 All of these doctrines follow through to a logically consistent 292 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:13.799 position that Christ has sanctified matter itself and the Church 293 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.039 by extension has the power to then also sanctify matter. Right, 294 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:21.160 So the priest can bless the waters of baptism, right, 295 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.240 the priests can, through the epiclasis, pray for the coming 296 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.319 down of the Holy Spirit to transform the elements in 297 00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:30.279 the Lord's Supper. All of these things are connected, and 298 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.480 they're all based on that incarnational principle. It all hangs 299 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.079 and falls together, right, relics, All of that goes together 300 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:38.000 with the same idea. 301 00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:44.480 Yeah, exactly, And you know, straight to my point, why 302 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:48.920 does Islam promote iconoclasm Because they do not have the 303 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:55.480 incarnational principle, and that's why they were fiercely antichonoclastic. At least, 304 00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:58.759 they do not even believe that God enters creation in 305 00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.920 that sense. It's linked to gnarstissism. You know, the revelation 306 00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:06.759 that is given to to Muhammad is is done through angels, 307 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:10.400 it's not God directly. They do not recognz theophanies. So 308 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:13.680 then you've got the first shift, the first real religion 309 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:23.200 that institutionalizes iconoclasm, and from them the iconoclass period starts. 310 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:26.920 So first the Jews getting influenced by them. So that's 311 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.359 the period where you know, you see the move from 312 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:33.440 these synagogues full of icons to the more modern type 313 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.759 of synagogues you can see today, just you know, a 314 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:45.240 slow shift, and it starts to influence Christian theology because 315 00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:49.920 in the in the Christian East, Muslim start influence and people, 316 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:53.119 people's people start thinking, oh, you know, we we destroyed 317 00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:56.240 the idols, which is perfectly fine to do, and the 318 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.440 icons isn't all this iconography sort of it? Other tis 319 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.319 And then you've got this these debates, and of course 320 00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:09.359 incarnational principle requires this. You've got the seven counsul, You've 321 00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:12.200 got a little bit of back and forth. Even we 322 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.599 look at history, we see that they were present because 323 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.200 you know, consoles are but affirming previously held dogma. So 324 00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:21.240 we see that they are present. We see that this 325 00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:23.960 coherent through theology. We see that Christ is incarnated. We 326 00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:28.039 see that we have scientification of matter, we have the 327 00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:31.759 idea of people being icons of Christ, you know, relics. 328 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.759 You know, why do we venerate relics Because these people 329 00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:39.160 gain back the image and the resemblance to God. People 330 00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:42.279 became icons of God once again. And that's why we 331 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:43.400 can venerate relics. 332 00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:47.480 Yeah, second King is thirteen the Bones of Elisha resurrect 333 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:52.319 a dead soldier. The same principle carries over into Acts 334 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:56.240 nineteen eleven and twelve, where cloths and handkerchiefs touched by 335 00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.920 Saint Paul himself are able to do the same type 336 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.640 miracles drive out evil spirits, as we see in Tewod 337 00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:05.440 King thirteen. But to your point about Islam, I want 338 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:10.319 to illustrate this to maybe make it helpful through visual illustration. 339 00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:12.559 I mean, what I'm saying, what we're saying is really 340 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.519 not that that complicated or difficult if you just think 341 00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.680 about it in terms of Look, if God is supremely transcendent, 342 00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:21.440 then how are we going to relate or know about 343 00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:23.880 that God. This is the argument I've been continually making 344 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.240 to the Muslims when we have these debates. If the 345 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:29.160 world is separate, right, God world separate? We agree with 346 00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:32.960 that God is not identical to his creation obviously, and 347 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:35.680 the medium by which we know about God is texts. 348 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:42.160 Guess what texts are created? Things that are full of images. Right, 349 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:44.920 all a word is is just a different type of image, 350 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.240 just because I'm not drawing a picture and By the way, 351 00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:53.680 some languages are pictographic, right, hieroglyphics. That's a language Chinese, 352 00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:58.440 isn't it. I think Japanese pictographic languages. Doesn't matter whether 353 00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:01.240 I if I use a pictographic or if I use 354 00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:08.200 a You know, the English symbols there, these letters are 355 00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:12.039 standing for in a certain combination. They're created symbols that 356 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:15.680 stand for this is just basic semiotics. Let's stand for 357 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:20.079 this or truths about this. So you're not avoiding the 358 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.599 problem when you act like we're going to get rid 359 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.680 of all images, we're gonna get we're gonna crusade against it. 360 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.000 That's that's how I'm able to, as an apologists, immediately 361 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.640 turn that around around around on all the Muslims and say, 362 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:35.960 then you don't know anything about God because nothing, nothing 363 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:37.359 can tell you about that. 364 00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.200 Exactly. And you know, the funny thing about Islam is 365 00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:47.240 that you know that God still is a creative and 366 00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:51.799 it's even adea to natural theology to a huge extent. 367 00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:56.680 So they still have to venerate to an extent creation. 368 00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:57.799 And how does it do this. 369 00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:04.480 Well, It's interesting because whether you're Protestant or Muslim or 370 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.599 Calvinists or whatever. I mean, I know Calvinists. But you 371 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:13.400 know what I'm saying, like, you're still venerating the book, right, Yeah, 372 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:15.519 I mean they treat the book the same way that 373 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:19.799 we The Holy Book, right, is like the incarnational principle 374 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:20.119 for them. 375 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:27.559 Exactly, the Quran basically behaves like anyposthasis, you know, exactlys 376 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.240 in Islam. But yeah, like, how do you signify the 377 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:34.000 respect to the book? You know, people, people would get 378 00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:36.400 mad if you do anything to a current, to a 379 00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:39.359 huge extent in the Muslim world for this reason because 380 00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:44.640 it's it is, to an extent a type of the prototype, 381 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:48.279 which is the Word of God. And how does it 382 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.599 signify this with calligraphy? You know, Oh, we cannot joy anything. 383 00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:54.960 We're just gonna make like beautiful, intricate calligraphy. So you 384 00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:57.400 and you say that this is a technique that is 385 00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:01.440 actually being used by econoclass. So you know, we're not 386 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:04.839 going to have image because this is idolatry, but we're 387 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:08.960 actually going to venerate calligraphy. What's the difference? Where does 388 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.200 it start? You know, like even letters, you know, for example, 389 00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:17.000 the Greek alph of it, it starts aspectrographic. Well, what's 390 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:20.079 what's the difference? And even all defense. You know, in 391 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.640 the Seventh Council when it comes to the to the 392 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:28.559 veneration of icons, we explain that it's part of the liturgy. 393 00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:31.480 You know, the liturgy is a type of heaven. We 394 00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:35.519 we venerate all the other parts of liturgy, we kiss 395 00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:36.200 the Bible. 396 00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:38.319 Yeah, I mean, just think about how absurd you know, 397 00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:41.160 John is seeing into heaven. He's seeing all these things. 398 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:43.480 I mean, what about I just did. I covered Isaiah 399 00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:46.519 one through seven last night, and then I covered the 400 00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:49.519 next seven chapters after that, and the part too for subscribers. 401 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:51.480