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Speaker 1: Dire wave. The scientific method cannot justify the scientific method.

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Therefore itself is a dogmatic.

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Speaker 2: Respre submissions stood stop stop stop stop stop.

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Speaker 3: Stop stop stop stop stops stop stop stop stop.

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Speaker 2: STA standings standing.

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Speaker 3: Assist.

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Speaker 2: It's ssssss stop stops its stocks asses.

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Speaker 1: The Presenski model of techno crowd model was much more

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interested in incremental slocal babing out approach to bringing the.

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Speaker 4: Technocracy into being.

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Speaker 1: So they're not going to send the Homeland Security troops

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to round you up and put you in a FEMA camp.

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They'd much rather promote everybody being in mesched.

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Speaker 4: Video games, the Disney.

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Speaker 1: Gulog, the virtual reality gulog, all this kind of stuff

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is in much better FEMA camp in your home. They

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don't need the FEMA camp.

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Speaker 4: It's it's too messy, it's a big ordeal, and it's

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all the nonsense of all.

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Speaker 1: The patriot crap on the radio. That's not gonna happen.

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Speaker 4: They don't need to the shadow of the global government

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is already here, and as we said, it's in the

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latter stages of the mopping up process.

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Speaker 1: To move it into the next phase ig between two

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ages of the next age. Once you have atheism. There's

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not really any foundation. Anything can come and go.

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Speaker 2: Ship no sishlish elish a fish ship, fish ships, ship

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shipsh ash ash ash ash ash lash ships ship ship

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shish ships, the storm of wish ship ships and ashsh

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ash ash ash ash.

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Speaker 1: Welcome. I'm a little bit late, so it's not Snack's fault,

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it's my fault.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Let's see. I gotta move.

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Speaker 4: Me.

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Speaker 1: There we go, bathing that light baby, Here we go?

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Here he comes almost, he's almost here? M hm, can

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you hear me?

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Speaker 4: Bro?

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Speaker 1: Should I rib it to you? Frog man? Can we

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be heard? Everybody here? Is okay? Everybody hear me? I

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don't know if he's used he may not have used

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Scott yet. There we go? Can you hear me? We're

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almost there? Hello?

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Speaker 5: Hello? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Perfect? Yes? How you doing man?

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Speaker 5: I'm doing all right?

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Speaker 1: Can you speak up? A little bit? Is much better?

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Speaker 2: All right?

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Speaker 1: Welcome everybody. We've got our ortho bro from France holding

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it down. He's the French. He's the I was trying

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to come up with something clever. I couldn't. He's the

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master French apologist. How's that? And he joins us tonight

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to cover idols icons iconicalasm. What's up.

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Speaker 5: Hello, happy to be here once again, and yet today

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you're going to cover a big topic itys a youte

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history you theological ramifications, iconoclasm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know we've done. By the way, if you're

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new to Snax's material, you can follow him on Twitter.

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I've got his link below. He and I have done

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multiple streams now where we've covered histrionic women, so called

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saints of the Roman Catholic era. We've covered our church,

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We've covered the Jesuits, we've covered christology, the logos. We've

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done multiple high quality streams. So I hope that you

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will go check out all of the previous snack streams.

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I don't know why these messages keep getting deleted. I'm

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sorry about that. I didn't mean to delete that message.

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There not averse. Tonight we're gonna talk about aconoclasm. Sneck

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has done a lot of research in and covering new

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historical material. He's really good at digging out this just

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really obscure historic stuff. He's he's the master of that.

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I have an old essay that I did just kind

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of defending iconography from the Bible, So I'm gonna touch

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on some of that and we're also going to get

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into the heresy and motivations of iconoclasm where it comes from.

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We're gonna try to touch on all of it, but

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on our mind. Viewers, if you have superchats, the new

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way to superchat is through stream Labs, so you can

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ask your questions there through the superchats at stream Labs.

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And we'll go ahead and get started here, snack. Where

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do you want to start? What's what's the good place

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that you think you've uncovered something worth getting to.

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Speaker 5: I think we should start from the beginning, from the

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biblical times, and actually we should start in Genesis because

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the first occurrence of the idea of the icon the

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image is interestingly linked to Genesis, to creation and to

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the fact that our God is a creator God. He

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is interacting with matter. And that's why you see the

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first departure between you know, iconoclasm and iconodulia, which is

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what we practice. God being a creator is him interacting

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with matter, so matter cannot be intrinsically bad, as many

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gnostics believe. And that's why you will see that the

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gnostics will actually believe that matter was created by a

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demiurge or something like this, and therefore all matter is bad.

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And that's why the also iconoclastic to an extent that

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in Genesis you can already see interaction in the creation

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of them. Specifically, Adam is in the image of the

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and the rest symblance of God. So it's you already

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have the term I can't present here. So from the beginning,

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a conoclasm wasn't really a thing in you know, Judean

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times and things like this, because because you have this

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idea of God interacting with man, and you can you

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can see it all throughout the Bible. So obviously idols

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are bad. We don't like idols, and idols, according to

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the Bible, are God that are that we made by

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ourselves false gods. It can be ideas, and it can

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also be statues or anything, or oftentimes they are referred

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to as being gods of metal, wood and so on.

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So you have the first distinction. And that's where many

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people would you know, solely take the Bible. We say,

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any graven image, any any painting and so on, it's

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already an insult to God and we cannot we cannot

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allow this. If you look a little bit further in

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the Bible, you will we will see that God actually

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a loose worship in a physical sense. It's a temple

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of David, perfect example. Example, the tabernacle as well, full

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of imagery, full of engravings, sculptures of angels and so on,

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the arc of the cabinet as well. You can see

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the exodus as well, give the brazen snack snake sorry

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a serpent. And you can also see it a bit

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later on in the Book of Daniel, chapter five. So

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you have any any commonsence this before I go a

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little bit further, just.

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Speaker 1: To lay out that right away at the beginning, the

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notion of man in the garden. And by the way,

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this is another reason why genesis and creation is important,

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is that we have to maintain the doctrine of man

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as an icon of God. Image. The word is icon.

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Man is an icon of God. That's what it means

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to be made in the image and likeness of God.

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In the teaching the Church fathers, the image is what

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man possesses in terms of his reason and his faculties

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and all that. And then the likeness is the presence

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of the Holy Spirit, the deifying power, the uncreated energies

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that man possessed and then lost when he fell. So

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for the father's image and likeness go together, and when

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Adam fell, he lost the likeness the theosis, so that

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has to be regained, and that's why we are told

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that Christ comes as the re establishment of that icon,

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of that image of man as the type to prototype, right,

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God being the archetype and then Man as prototype. So

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that will be a consistent philosophical train of argumentation that

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Saint John Damascus and St. Theodore the Student will use

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in their defense of iconographic theology. But you're absolutely right

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to go back to the garden that the beginning of

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the rejection of man has made in the image of

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God is actually inspired by Satan, and it's the original

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attack on icons. Absolutely, it's Satanic in its origin. Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Correct, So we already established that icons are present, these

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images are not idols, and they're present in the space

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of worship. But now the question is we venerate icons

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and where where can we find that in the Bible?

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And I think Daniel chapter five is an excellent example

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because so it's it's after and as a, it takes

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over Jerusalem and Nebrakatin as A celebrates his victory with

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the vases of the temple, and it desecrates them and

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forces it gets killed a bit later on by God.

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And how does it desecreate the vases? It de secreates

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them by using them in a profane manner and praying

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to false God, idols of wood, metal, and so on

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with it. So we can see that there is a

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veneration that is required of the objects of worship. There

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are the veneration of the object of worship is already

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present in the Old Testament. And we'll see that since

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very early Christian times and at the time of David's Temple,

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icons were depart of the worship. So here you know,

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many pros and for example, will say, oh, veneration adoration,

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there's no such distinction. But here we can see that

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clearly people are killed because it did not venerates a basis.

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Obviously they did not believe the basis. When Gods God

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doesn't mand it to to you know, worship basis, but

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to respect what is part of the liturgy, I hope

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they disagree.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've got a bunch of examples of this too.

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So if we look even in the Old Testament, right,

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I mean, typically when Saya Protestant has a problem with

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this idea that's, oh, the Ten Commandments, you can't do this,

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can't have images, can't do that, you can't bow before

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anything that's created, because they'll view it in this legalistic

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way as if the action of bowing itself is the

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root of the idolatry, when it's actually the motivation of

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the heart that's the root of the idolatry, and the

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bowing or the bodily express essions are just the external

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manifestations of what is in the heart of the mind.

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So it's not really so much about that. Because you'll

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notice in let's see Genesis forty two seven, all the

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Joseph's family bows and prostrates themselves before Joseph. In Second

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Kings two fifteen, the prophets bow and prostrate themselves before Elijah.

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And if you look at Romans thirteen seven, Paul says

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to give honor or give honor to whom honor is due.

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So there's nothing wrong with giving honor when honor is due.

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And in the ancient world, there's nothing wrong with reverencing, prostrating.

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Joseph even bows before Pharaoh. There's the example in the

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case of the Ark of the Covenant, where Solomon prays

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and everybody bows themselves towards the temple, prostrates themselves in

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front of the ark. These were all created images. They're

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all created things, the art, the tabernacle, the temple itself

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is full of iconography. It's full of images of angels

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and seraphim and so forth. So this is just based

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on ignorance that people don't even know that the temple

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itself was full of iconography and even the term if

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you just think of this as an argument John Damascus makes,

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I mean, just think of the word itself, like the

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Bible itself is a bunch of letters, which are symbols words.

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They're just another type of iconographic representation. So if you

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have the word good or y HWH or l r D,

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those are symbols that refer to God. So there's nothing

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inherently wrong with created symbols referencing God. And in fact,

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it's absolutely necessary meaningful conversation, meaningful discussion logos itself, right,

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logical meaningful transference of meaning loogie logic requires the ability

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to signify divine realities in created forms. Right, So it's

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just a stupid idiotic level of thinking to think that, oh, well,

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the symbolic presentation of the image is somehow evil. But

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the word that's also a symbolic representation, that's an image.

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Words themselves are symbol images. They're they're good, but pictures

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are bad. They're both pictures obviously.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Like you know, that's what genes is important, because

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if you have a god's interactive creation, there's already some

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level of an international principle, you know, or at least

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for us to understand it. Then we're gonna go a

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little bit further in time, and you will see that

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early Christian worship includes frescoes, includes this kind of explanations.

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Speaker 1: So did Judas too. By the way, I have a

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screenshot of this that I'm gonna put up here.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a very famous synagogue.

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Speaker 1: What is it do or Europa or something like that. Yeah,

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and you'll notice there this is from some blog, but

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ancient dress synagogues were filled with icons. Scripture required the

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inside of the Jerusalem Temple to display icons of angels.

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Icons in the Jewish Synagogue depicted numerous scenes from Scripture.

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This is the Duo Europa Synagogue two forty four a d.

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You'll see images of the Bernie Bush, the rescue of

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Moses Miracle, the Water, Aaron, the Temple, Samuel and David,

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Ark of the Covenant, Ezekiel's vision of the dry Bones,

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and that the blog there has all those pictures. I'll

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put the link into the chat if anybody wants to

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go look at the different images that that blog has.

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I can't vouch for that blog. I don't know who

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it is, just the one that popped up.

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Speaker 5: Go ahead, yeah, so we can see that the time,

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be it in Christian worship or Jewish worship, icons are present.

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The only ones that do not have these kind of icons,

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that do not allow images are the Gnostics. To these

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are some some Christian consuls that are influenced by Gnosticism,

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like the concept of Elvira, which is influenced by gnosticisms

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that forbids images. It's the same consul by the way,

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that forbids, which is the first consul that forbids priests

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to marry. You know, so it's linked. You know, rejection

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of the body is rejection of good point. Yeah, yeah,

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completely linked. So at the time, you know, today Jewish

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worship is more econoclastic, we'll see why, but at the

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time it did not exist. So if you look at

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the traditions. There's a clear continuation from Genesis to Exodus,

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to the time of Christ, to early Christian period to

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what we do today. But the first real religion to

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institutionalize icono pleasant is Islam. So the rise of Islam

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is linked to the their theology, and the rise of

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icono pleasant is into the theology.

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Speaker 1: Well before before we jump to Islam, though, I want

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to I want to illustrate that as this debate takes

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place in the early Church, recall that you can go

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back to, say, the first period of the post appstock

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fought like right after the Apostles. You've already got justin

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Martyr ieron As talking about the real presence of Christ

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in the Eucharist. And so the real presence is also

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connected to this debate because it stands to reason that

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if the incarnation was real, and all those church fathers

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that are defending the reality of the incarnation, it's directly

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connected in their argumentation apologetic to the doctrine of the

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real presence. Right, so it only makes sense to argue

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for the real presence if Christ really did become incarnate

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in the flesh, right, if the Son of God is

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incarnating human flesh. So there's a direct connection. If you

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look at Ephesus, when Saint Cyril is arguing against Nestorius,

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especially in the Anathemas ephesis, is very clear that the

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argumentation for the reality of the second person that God

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had assuming human nature is based on Cyril's argumentation about

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the real presence. He says, you and Astorias, do you

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eat the body, blood, soul, and divinity of a mere

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man or of the Son of God. Right, so it

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necessitates the reality of the incarnation. Arguments based on the Eucharist,

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the real presence of Christ, and the Eucharist, the real

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presence of Christ is an immediate destroyer of all of

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the Protestant sort of gnostic iconoclastic argumentation because it's directly

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connected to correct Christology. Then you'll see that when they

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get up to the Seventh Council, and I see it

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two in seven eighty seven, when the debate is being

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had about whether icons are blasphemous or whether they are

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idolatry or whatever, it's always connected to a consistent argumentation

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about Christology and about the incarnation and the real presence. Right,

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All of these doctrines follow through to a logically consistent

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position that Christ has sanctified matter itself and the Church

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by extension has the power to then also sanctify matter. Right,

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So the priest can bless the waters of baptism, right,

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the priests can, through the epiclasis, pray for the coming

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down of the Holy Spirit to transform the elements in

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the Lord's Supper. All of these things are connected, and

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they're all based on that incarnational principle. It all hangs

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and falls together, right, relics, All of that goes together

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with the same idea.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, And you know, straight to my point, why

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does Islam promote iconoclasm Because they do not have the

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incarnational principle, and that's why they were fiercely antichonoclastic. At least,

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they do not even believe that God enters creation in

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that sense. It's linked to gnarstissism. You know, the revelation

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that is given to to Muhammad is is done through angels,

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it's not God directly. They do not recognz theophanies. So

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then you've got the first shift, the first real religion

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that institutionalizes iconoclasm, and from them the iconoclass period starts.

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So first the Jews getting influenced by them. So that's

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the period where you know, you see the move from

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these synagogues full of icons to the more modern type

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of synagogues you can see today, just you know, a

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slow shift, and it starts to influence Christian theology because

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in the in the Christian East, Muslim start influence and people,

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people's people start thinking, oh, you know, we we destroyed

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the idols, which is perfectly fine to do, and the

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icons isn't all this iconography sort of it? Other tis

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And then you've got this these debates, and of course

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incarnational principle requires this. You've got the seven counsul, You've

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got a little bit of back and forth. Even we

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look at history, we see that they were present because

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you know, consoles are but affirming previously held dogma. So

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we see that they are present. We see that this

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coherent through theology. We see that Christ is incarnated. We

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see that we have scientification of matter, we have the

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idea of people being icons of Christ, you know, relics.

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You know, why do we venerate relics Because these people

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gain back the image and the resemblance to God. People

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became icons of God once again. And that's why we

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can venerate relics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, second King is thirteen the Bones of Elisha resurrect

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a dead soldier. The same principle carries over into Acts

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nineteen eleven and twelve, where cloths and handkerchiefs touched by

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Saint Paul himself are able to do the same type

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miracles drive out evil spirits, as we see in Tewod

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King thirteen. But to your point about Islam, I want

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to illustrate this to maybe make it helpful through visual illustration.

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I mean, what I'm saying, what we're saying is really

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not that that complicated or difficult if you just think

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about it in terms of Look, if God is supremely transcendent,

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then how are we going to relate or know about

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that God. This is the argument I've been continually making

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to the Muslims when we have these debates. If the

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world is separate, right, God world separate? We agree with

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that God is not identical to his creation obviously, and

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the medium by which we know about God is texts.

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Guess what texts are created? Things that are full of images. Right,

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all a word is is just a different type of image,

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just because I'm not drawing a picture and By the way,

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some languages are pictographic, right, hieroglyphics. That's a language Chinese,

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isn't it. I think Japanese pictographic languages. Doesn't matter whether

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I if I use a pictographic or if I use

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a You know, the English symbols there, these letters are

355
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standing for in a certain combination. They're created symbols that

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stand for this is just basic semiotics. Let's stand for

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this or truths about this. So you're not avoiding the

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problem when you act like we're going to get rid

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of all images, we're gonna get we're gonna crusade against it.

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That's that's how I'm able to, as an apologists, immediately

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turn that around around around on all the Muslims and say,

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then you don't know anything about God because nothing, nothing

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can tell you about that.

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Speaker 5: Exactly. And you know, the funny thing about Islam is

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that you know that God still is a creative and

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it's even adea to natural theology to a huge extent.

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So they still have to venerate to an extent creation.

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And how does it do this.

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Speaker 1: Well, It's interesting because whether you're Protestant or Muslim or

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Calvinists or whatever. I mean, I know Calvinists. But you

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know what I'm saying, like, you're still venerating the book, right, Yeah,

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I mean they treat the book the same way that

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we The Holy Book, right, is like the incarnational principle

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for them.

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Speaker 5: Exactly, the Quran basically behaves like anyposthasis, you know, exactlys

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in Islam. But yeah, like, how do you signify the

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respect to the book? You know, people, people would get

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mad if you do anything to a current, to a

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huge extent in the Muslim world for this reason because

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it's it is, to an extent a type of the prototype,

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which is the Word of God. And how does it

382
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signify this with calligraphy? You know, Oh, we cannot joy anything.

383
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We're just gonna make like beautiful, intricate calligraphy. So you

384
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and you say that this is a technique that is

385
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actually being used by econoclass. So you know, we're not

386
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going to have image because this is idolatry, but we're

387
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actually going to venerate calligraphy. What's the difference? Where does

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it start? You know, like even letters, you know, for example,

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the Greek alph of it, it starts aspectrographic. Well, what's

390
00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:20,079
what's the difference? And even all defense. You know, in

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the Seventh Council when it comes to the to the

392
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veneration of icons, we explain that it's part of the liturgy.

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You know, the liturgy is a type of heaven. We

394
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we venerate all the other parts of liturgy, we kiss

395
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the Bible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just think about how absurd you know,

397
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John is seeing into heaven. He's seeing all these things.

398
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I mean, what about I just did. I covered Isaiah

399
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one through seven last night, and then I covered the

400
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next seven chapters after that, and the part too for subscribers.

401
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If you missed that, you can subscribe and get access

402
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:54,200
to all that. But Isaiah says in Isaiah six, I

403
00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:57,759
have seen the Lord with my eyes. So Isaiah quite

404
00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:02,000
literally saw that vision of Jesus lifted up on the

405
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,759
throne in the heavenly Temple, and there's a liturgical worship

406
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:08,559
service going on all around him. Right. There's it's full

407
00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:13,239
of sounds and smells and chants, Holy, Holy, Holy, right,

408
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,280
a lot of visual imagery. It's exact same stuff that

409
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John sees in the Apocalypse right chapter four five. He

410
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:23,599
sees this liturgical worship going on in heaven. He sees

411
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saints underneath the altar, interceding for praying for vengeance, for

412
00:34:28,039 --> 00:34:32,119
the church on earth, offering up incense. Right, that's why

413
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,719
we do what we do. We're doing the worship that

414
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John sees on Earth. It's the same service.

415
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Speaker 5: Yeah, correct, So again you're gonna have some level anyway

416
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of veneration for things. So that's why I kind of

417
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:57,400
please him, is you know, not consistent eternally unless you

418
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believe that like literally everything on Earth bad, including your text,

419
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and you don't know anything.

420
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really arbitrary, and they have to the only thing.

421
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The Calvinists will say things like, well, you can't make

422
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up a worship service because of the regulative principle. So

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they'll point to like text and the little it because

424
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:19,719
we're Nadev and Aby who basically did their own little

425
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incense thing and God burned them up, and they'll say, ah,

426
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see the regulative principal worship. That means that you can't

427
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:29,599
worship in a way other than God has ordained. The

428
00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:34,000
problem with that argument is that guess how David organized

429
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the worship of Israel. If you read my essay that

430
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,039
I did on tradition in the Bible, you'll see that

431
00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:42,280
David did it on the basis of tradition. David was

432
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,079
not given all of the ways that the choir and

433
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,159
the services were to be conducted. He did it on

434
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,679
the basis of a tradition that he knew about. And

435
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,960
guess what, Calvinists, I can turn that regulative principal argument

436
00:35:54,039 --> 00:35:56,400
right back on you and point out that you're correct.

437
00:35:56,559 --> 00:35:59,679
You have to worship the way that the Church lays down,

438
00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:04,239
and that's already been laid down by tradition by the Apostles,

439
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,639
because they established churches that developed their worship service by

440
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Apostolic authority on the basis of the temple and the

441
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,039
synagogue services of that time. So therefore the regular principle

442
00:36:15,079 --> 00:36:17,679
means you have to obey the Orthodox liturgy, and you don't.

443
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So by your own argument, you are nadab and abaye

444
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who Calvinists. Yeah, so.

445
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Speaker 5: Yeah, This mostly influence causes what is called the Ecmoclastic

446
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period in the East, and people who often focus on

447
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:42,039
these sayings that it's strictly a Byzantine thing, and of

448
00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:44,960
course it was. It was more violent in the Bysantine

449
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Empires than anywhere else, but it touched the entirety of Christendom.

450
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So the Seventh Council lays down the seventh Yeah, seventh

451
00:36:56,199 --> 00:37:00,599
Council explained, yes, we can venerate because it's a type.

452
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We can we can venerate because the glory of the

453
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,159
of the given to the type will go back to

454
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the prototype. We can venerate because icons statues a lot

455
00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:17,039
before not a problem. And we can venerate because we

456
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:20,519
need to we need to give respect to the objects

457
00:37:20,559 --> 00:37:23,920
of worship, the objects that are used in the liturgy.

458
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Uh So it explains all this and it sets out

459
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real rules. For example, the Seventh Council appeals to a

460
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,719
canon of the Tulo Council. And by the way, it's

461
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,679
very funny because Tulo Council is not rejected by the papacy,

462
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,880
but the Purpose very happy to use this canon and

463
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:51,320
to declare this exactly. Yeah. But this canon says we

464
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need to to give real images, and that's where you

465
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,199
have the idea of, you know, communication between the type

466
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and the prototype. But we need to represent Christ as

467
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:03,559
real images. And we know that in the past there

468
00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:08,519
were icons of Christ where it was depicted as a lamb,

469
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,920
and this is not forbidden because Christ too humanity, Christ

470
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,440
to con human flesh. And this is very interesting in

471
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,800
the in the current context because many people will try

472
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,519
to make you know, Choese Jesus or Rasta.

473
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,079
Speaker 1: Jesus or rost Jesus. Mind.

474
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, like you know, to what to what prototype does this?

475
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:35,559
You know, rasta Jesus type will give glory to none.

476
00:38:35,679 --> 00:38:39,679
Like there's not Rasta Jesus in heaven. So yeah, like

477
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,119
like we need to you know, and that's why we

478
00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:44,920
have the first iconographic canons that are really being put

479
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,159
into place in the Seventh Council. But the problem is

480
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:56,599
the Seventh Consul wasn't accepted, wasn't fully accepted in the

481
00:38:57,079 --> 00:38:58,000
in the West.

482
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,559
Speaker 1: Right, and we cover them stream where we had Charlotte

483
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,440
Charlomagne basically rejecting it.

484
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, so the Frankish Church actually fought against it. We

485
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,519
have people a Theodore for Aliance, which is a Roman

486
00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:16,280
Catholic saint who was econoclastic, but you know, still wanted

487
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,119
some icons in his in his personal chapel.

488
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

489
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 5: But what's very funny is how did Theodolf mark is

490
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,719
iconoclasm the same way as the Muslim did. He actually

491
00:39:35,199 --> 00:39:40,519
commissioned very ornate bibles with you know, the pages died

492
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:44,639
in purple, which was the most precious pigment at the

493
00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:49,960
time the most precious colors, colors the kings with very

494
00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:55,039
ornate calligraphy in letters of gold. So you see the

495
00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:59,239
same the same strategems that the Muslims had to resort

496
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,760
to the Franks, and the econoplasm matters all too. We

497
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,320
have the idea also of increased symbolism, you know, just

498
00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:10,360
using the cross. That's why you have specific worship around

499
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,320
the cross that appear, and a full on rejection of

500
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,920
the theology of the Seventh Council, because the idea of

501
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,960
the Seventh Console is, as Symtohn of the Mascus puts it,

502
00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:29,880
we do not worship, we do not venerate wood and paint.

503
00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:34,440
Like if my icon is broken, if I cannot see anything,

504
00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:38,119
if it does not represent the type any longer I

505
00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:42,320
can burn it. It's the idea that it is it

506
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,320
is the image and not the matter, because if the

507
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,400
matter had anything to do in the worship and not

508
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:50,960
the image, then we would actually focus on matter, and

509
00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:54,440
that would be like pagan paganism. And act think that's

510
00:40:54,599 --> 00:40:57,239
an augment that theodoret uses. It says that, you know,

511
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,199
we ought not to worship these images, but we we

512
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,519
ought to to to venerate these images. But we are

513
00:41:03,599 --> 00:41:07,199
to venerate matters that is venerable. And that's why you

514
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,039
see many, many new relics being made in the West

515
00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:13,840
because they want, you know, they want to to venerate

516
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,719
some things that is material and not not t iconographic.

517
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,639
So we have new relics, you have increased veneration of relics.

518
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,960
This will give rise to some other kind of worship,

519
00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:30,960
for example, eucharistic worship. We do not have this because

520
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,000
you know, we believe that Christ told us to eat,

521
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:38,159
to splash and drink his blood. But what happened in

522
00:41:38,199 --> 00:41:41,440
the Roman Catholic Church later on is that because of

523
00:41:41,519 --> 00:41:44,679
these ideas, because the Seventh Council wasn't really fully understood, right,

524
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,000
just added to say, oh, you know, since the Eucharist

525
00:41:50,119 --> 00:41:52,280
is full of the body of Christ, then it has

526
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,519
the essence of God and we can worship the essence.

527
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,840
You know again you see the idea of essence coming

528
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,280
before per Ma said before image.

529
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,199
Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, if you go back and listen to the

530
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,679
old interview that I did, what did we title it,

531
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,719
uh anatomizing Divinity? The old old talk I did with

532
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,320
an interview with James Kelly. He made a good point

533
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,199
at that time that showing that the Carolinian theologians had

534
00:42:17,199 --> 00:42:20,480
actually adopted a lot of neoplatonic ideas, so they just

535
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:24,639
viewed all images as well, this world is basically just

536
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,519
a path back to the essence of God. Uh So

537
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:31,559
they kind of had these weird neopolatanic neoplatonic ideas influencing

538
00:42:31,639 --> 00:42:38,920
their version of iconographic representations in the Carolinian theological argumentation.

539
00:42:39,199 --> 00:42:40,960
That's a big part of it, and that actually makes

540
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,199
sense why they would change or deviate or not understand

541
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,000
the kind of norms that had that had been, that

542
00:42:48,599 --> 00:42:50,760
had kind of developed to be in place for how

543
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,639
we do iconographic representations in the Church. So you know,

544
00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:58,719
Byzantium had had had developed this very well, not out

545
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,199
of like arbitr speculation, but on the basis of philosophic

546
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,840
and logical principles. Right, if you read on the Divine

547
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,320
Images by Saint John Damascus, or if you read St.

548
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,880
Theodore Studite's book, I mean, these are the arguments that

549
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,000
will make up the argumentation of the Seventh Council. And

550
00:43:18,119 --> 00:43:24,880
it's a very consistent philosophic and theological presentation. It's not like, oh,

551
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,360
let's just sit around and speculate about, like you know,

552
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,440
the mysticism of images or something like that. It's all

553
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:36,840
really again premised on correct Christology. All of the theology,

554
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,920
whether it's the sacraments, or whether it's ecclesiology, or whether

555
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,559
it's iconography or whether it's anthropology, it all flows from

556
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,880
the triad and Christology. These are two ironclad starting points

557
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,920
for orthodoxy that are different, that make it unique. That's

558
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:58,400
why the councils hammered out triadology and Christology first, and

559
00:43:58,559 --> 00:44:01,119
then by extension the other doctrines that kind of flow

560
00:44:01,159 --> 00:44:04,480
from that. But to Snack's point, it's not by accident

561
00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:06,679
that at the beginning of this Carolinium period that's when

562
00:44:06,679 --> 00:44:10,639
you start to see the deviations not just in pictographic

563
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:16,360
or images, but also the imagery and statuary. These statuary

564
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,000
starts to come in. You also see changes in the liturgy.

565
00:44:21,119 --> 00:44:24,960
This is when infants no longer begin to partake of

566
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,159
pedal communion. You start to have the banning of infants

567
00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:31,280
from the table. You start to have these other weird

568
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,440
practices enter in liturgically that the later Byzantine lists would

569
00:44:35,519 --> 00:44:38,599
reject in the West. But just to sum up real quick,

570
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,079
there's a couple points I didn't mention. If you're looking

571
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:46,760
for biblical presentation, remember one King six. This tells us

572
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,679
about all of the variations of imagery in the Temple.

573
00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:54,239
Number twenty one. This is the serpent lifted up on

574
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,440
a pole. If it was always wrong to have imagery,

575
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,519
why did God direct the Israelites to look at the

576
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:02,119
serpent on a poll which Jesus says in John three

577
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,920
was the type of the cross. Paul says in Colossians

578
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,880
two thirteen to fifteen that the cross itself has power

579
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,719
to despoil the principalities, demons and powers that had control

580
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,119
of us through the vices and the passions Colossians one fifteen.

581
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,280
Jesus is the icon ko n and the Greek of God,

582
00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:27,079
the direct representation. Remember, Jesus says, no man has seen

583
00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:30,519
God at any time, but everybody who in the Old

584
00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:34,039
Testament saw the Word right, the word of the Lord

585
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:37,679
came to Isaiah. I saw the Lord. Who's he seeing?

586
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,800
He's seeing Christ. Paul Tewond Corinthians three argues that Moses

587
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,480
saw Christ face to face. So if you can't see

588
00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:48,079
the Father, but you saw God, who did you see?

589
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,199
You saw the Angel of the Covenant, the Angel of

590
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,119
the Lord, the Messenger of the Covenant, the Face of God,

591
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,400
who is Christ himself. According to Paul John five, this

592
00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:02,880
is an overlooked one. And I'm pointing this out because

593
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:08,519
the same a principle applies to locations and buildings. Right, prozz,

594
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,000
what are you talking about a temple?

595
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:10,599
Speaker 4: Right?

596
00:46:10,679 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: We just have a strip mall.

597
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:12,159
Speaker 3: Dude.

598
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: My pastor threw up a strip mall in five days

599
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,480
and big metal building. That's the church. No, dude, that's

600
00:46:18,559 --> 00:46:21,639
not the church. Strip malls are not churches. Churches still

601
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:26,000
exist as holy places, and the New Testament still acknowledges

602
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:31,599
locations sites places as holy John five, the Pool of

603
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,880
Siloam a site where an angel comes down and stirs

604
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,079
the pool and people are healed there. That's a holy place.

605
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,119
Tewod Peter One's sixteen to eighteen Peter calls the Mountain

606
00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:49,079
of Transfiguration the holy mountain where he saw Christ transfigured

607
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:52,800
with Moses and Elijah. So places in the New Testament,

608
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:58,239
buildings matter can still be holy, holy water. All these

609
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,199
things still exist just because that was something that you

610
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:02,840
thought was in the Old test Oh, we're in the

611
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,119
spiritual New Testament. Now it's not physical, not true, that's gnostic.

612
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:10,320
And then lastly again Apocalypse four and five, when John

613
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,960
sees into heaven, he sees all this liturgical worship, all

614
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,000
of the sights, smells, and bells that we think are

615
00:47:17,119 --> 00:47:19,559
in the liturgy on earth. It's the same liturgy. It's

616
00:47:19,559 --> 00:47:23,119
not two different things. Right, Jesus brought heaven to earth

617
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:24,400
in the first Advent.

618
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, you know. And it's not because it's a

619
00:47:31,159 --> 00:47:34,280
body of chrisis in temple that we cannot all bes

620
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,039
a temple as well.

621
00:47:36,079 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: It's a good point either, and that doesn't mean.

622
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 5: That we cannot have temples. You know, churches are still

623
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,960
you know, it's still the same layout as a temple.

624
00:47:48,519 --> 00:47:51,360
It's a bit ludic chrius to create dialectic.

625
00:47:52,159 --> 00:47:56,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a dialectic. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah,

626
00:47:56,599 --> 00:47:58,000
I don't want to cut you off. You're you're making

627
00:47:58,039 --> 00:48:02,840
great points. And just real quick couple. Now. The Protestants

628
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,960
will love to say, oh, Butanius ep fantas. First of all,

629
00:48:06,159 --> 00:48:10,119
there's an argument to be made that the writings attributed

630
00:48:10,159 --> 00:48:13,400
to Epiphanius are forgeries. But even if they're not, so

631
00:48:13,559 --> 00:48:16,119
what this is the game that Protestants play where they

632
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,159
just pick out a single church father. Oh look, Jerome

633
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,599
says that, he lists the canon that we have, and

634
00:48:22,679 --> 00:48:26,280
then Jerome turns around and talks about tradition, talks about bishops,

635
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,960
talks about the Eucharist. Oh, none of that, right, So

636
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:31,079
they just play this kind of pick and choose game

637
00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:35,079
out of the church fathers. Right, But nobody actually follows

638
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:39,079
any single church father, whether you're Protestant, Roman, Catholic, or Orthodox.

639
00:48:39,559 --> 00:48:42,119
Nobody has the position that you just randomly pick one

640
00:48:42,159 --> 00:48:45,559
to follow. Well, unless you just randomly decide that Augustine

641
00:48:45,639 --> 00:48:47,039
is the one that you're supposed to follow. I don't know.

642
00:48:47,119 --> 00:48:50,519
Some people do do that, but no, they're just following

643
00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:54,559
that idea of just picking an individual. When, for example,

644
00:48:54,639 --> 00:48:56,880
Jerome says it against raparium. He says, we do not

645
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:04,159
worship matter, we do not adore, He says the non autoramus,

646
00:49:04,199 --> 00:49:05,840
for fear that we should bow down to a creature

647
00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:09,400
rather than the creator. But rather we do venerate hon Oramos.

648
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,960
In the Latin, the relics of the of the Martyrs

649
00:49:12,079 --> 00:49:15,559
in order to adore him, whose martyrs they are Saint

650
00:49:15,639 --> 00:49:18,559
Cyril of Alexandria. Says, we do not consider the martyrs

651
00:49:18,639 --> 00:49:20,960
to be gods, nor do we bow down to them

652
00:49:21,079 --> 00:49:23,679
adoringly as if they were gods, but only relatively and

653
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,159
in reverence. Out of Latria. He says, that's against Julian

654
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,239
by Saint Alexander, Saint Cyril of Alexandria. Likewise, Augustine says

655
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,639
the same thing. We celebrate the memory of the martyrs

656
00:49:36,079 --> 00:49:39,119
with ritual salinity because we want to be inspired by

657
00:49:39,159 --> 00:49:41,719
their example, We want to share in their merits and

658
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,599
be helped by their prayers. We erect no altars to

659
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,960
any of the martyrs themselves, nor even in the martyrs

660
00:49:48,039 --> 00:49:50,559
burial chapels are they are we honoring the martyrs but

661
00:49:50,679 --> 00:49:54,000
rather in themselves, but rather Christ. And then he goes

662
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:57,760
on to say multiple times the same thing. He says

663
00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,679
that in City of God and in many of his works.

664
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:05,320
So excuse me, that's against fossis the Manichian where Augustine

665
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:10,559
says that, So you know, Augustine has that distinction, Saint

666
00:50:10,639 --> 00:50:13,519
Jerome has that distinction, Saint Cerl Alexandria has that distinction.

667
00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:16,039
And they didn't just make that up. It's based on

668
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,559
the arguments that I was just pointing out in scripture

669
00:50:18,639 --> 00:50:22,400
that it's okay to venerate a ruler, to bow before

670
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,119
a ruler, It's okay to venerate the arc the temple,

671
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,320
to bow prostrate. All these things occur without it being idolatry.

672
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 5: Go ahead, Yeah, And so I wanted to stress out

673
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,719
the difference, you know, with the with the West. For example,

674
00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:43,079
you mentioned statuary. Statuary are perfectly find in the Ostock scense,

675
00:50:43,119 --> 00:50:47,960
but statuary taking precedence of icons. Again, that's the idea

676
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:52,320
of you know, the physical matter being more important than

677
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,519
the image as is. And that's again you know, this

678
00:50:56,199 --> 00:51:01,519
pagan understanding that we are wed to worship something that

679
00:51:01,679 --> 00:51:04,679
is ultimately material, and that's where we are to look,

680
00:51:06,639 --> 00:51:10,400
not like, you know, to look directly at the essence again,

681
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:11,400
you see essentialism.

682
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: We do not have this.

683
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 5: We have the essence energy distinction. We believe that icons

684
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:22,000
to an extent representation of the type of heaven and

685
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:23,800
as such venerable.

686
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,039
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean the argumentation for example, in St. Theodore

687
00:51:28,079 --> 00:51:30,599
or the STUDEI, if you read his on the Holy Images,

688
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,880
on the Holy icons, he premises the argument on the

689
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,960
nature person distinction and the essence energy distinction. Right, we're

690
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,400
not signifying the essence of God by the icon, we're

691
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,440
signifying the hoopostasis that's revealed energetically.

692
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's where I'm going to comment on the icons.

693
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:52,639
Everybody knows the hailo and the icon, and that's what

694
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,079
it represents. So the background of the icon is usually golden,

695
00:51:56,440 --> 00:52:01,119
and you've got this golden halo around the head, and

696
00:52:01,679 --> 00:52:05,360
that represents the energies. That represents the light of Tabor,

697
00:52:05,559 --> 00:52:08,079
the divine light. The fact that this person is in

698
00:52:08,159 --> 00:52:13,119
a transfigured state in heaven. That's what it represents. That's

699
00:52:13,159 --> 00:52:16,840
why we have this so even well to we represented icons,

700
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,440
and this is before the schism, before because you can

701
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,599
see hellos and every sort of icons from every denomination.

702
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:30,199
This Hello is here specifically to signify a transfigured state.

703
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,480
It's specifically to signify theosis, and it is the energies.

704
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,360
It is the divine energies. That's somethings that's very interesting

705
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:43,559
because if you skip forward to so West, you can

706
00:52:43,599 --> 00:52:48,440
see that this Hello is being modified after the Renaissance.

707
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, naturally it would be modified if you believe

708
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,360
in absolute divine simplicity and you don't recognize the reality

709
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,599
of the distinction between nature and person. You're no longer

710
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,920
imaging the hopostosis or the particuticular person of the Sun.

711
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,920
You begin to see all of reality is just images

712
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,599
of the prototypes in the essence of God. Right, I mean,

713
00:53:10,119 --> 00:53:14,239
the Western view of divine exemplarism then conditions their view

714
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,840
of iconography. Because Augustine taught the Western view of exemplarism.

715
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,119
He didn't recognize the essence Inergi distinction, so he said

716
00:53:20,159 --> 00:53:24,159
that reality itself, all of reality is patterned on the

717
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,920
divine ideas, the exemplars in the essence of God. So

718
00:53:27,159 --> 00:53:30,199
ultimately everything is just an icon of the essence of God.

719
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,239
And then the particularity of the hypostosis of the sun

720
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,920
loses its significance. It's not picking out icons. Are no

721
00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:42,840
longer holy images that pick out the person of the logos, right,

722
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,599
it becomes something else exactly.

723
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 5: So you start to see more profane images exactly.

724
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,119
Speaker 1: Then you get to Renaissance gibberish pornography basically.

725
00:53:55,159 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you see many saints. So I'm going to

726
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,800
talk specifically as a heno because it's very interesting. You

727
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,719
can see that it sometimes disappears, which is very very

728
00:54:05,079 --> 00:54:08,159
you know, it is terrible for us, because especially for Christ,

729
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,840
Christ needs to have is halo to signified divinity, and

730
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:13,800
the cruciform halo gives it on.

731
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: Yes, I was gonna say, the whole on is important

732
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,239
because that identifies him as the I Am. It also

733
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,519
identifies him as the Angel of the Lord. So actually

734
00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:28,079
every Byzantine icon that has that identifies him as the

735
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,960
one right of Exodus three fourteen. And if you read Isaiah,

736
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,679
then Isaiah explicitly, as Sam Chumon pointed out the other day,

737
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:42,480
explicitly identifies Jesus as the Angel of the good Counsel,

738
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,920
the Angel of the Lord, the Angel of wonderful counsel.

739
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,119
How do I know that that's Jesus, because it's the

740
00:54:48,199 --> 00:54:51,159
same subject in Isaiah nine, that is, the son that

741
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,719
is born unto us. His name will be called wonderful

742
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,519
Angel of counsel, angel of great Council, or wonderful counsel.

743
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,519
That's the same person as the sign. And Isaiah nine

744
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:04,400
to five. That proves that the Angel of the Lord

745
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,360
is the sign Jesus Isaiah nine six.

746
00:55:11,639 --> 00:55:15,159
Speaker 5: Exactly. And this Hello, which represents the divine energies, and

747
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,199
not only for Christ, but also the saints, which represents

748
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,880
a the fat state. You can see it being further alta.

749
00:55:21,039 --> 00:55:26,760
So not only it's it's something in Western iconography post Renaissance,

750
00:55:27,199 --> 00:55:31,719
but it also loses his sense, its sense. So as

751
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,199
they moved to representation in three dimension, you can see

752
00:55:36,199 --> 00:55:38,920
it being a plate and then just being a circle,

753
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,760
and you know, being being matter being limited. Whereas you

754
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,719
can see that or understanding of iconography, especially the more

755
00:55:47,159 --> 00:55:50,679
realistic types of air comes we can have always depicted

756
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,199
as as ray, you know, like like it's either just

757
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,400
a circle and the more simplistic type or race. But

758
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,679
by doing this you can see also an understanding of

759
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:04,000
creative grace because this this halo, it signifies grace. You know,

760
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:12,480
no longer is this light radiant light, it's just circles, plates.

761
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,239
It starts to be very limited, and you can see, yeah,

762
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:17,360
you can train exactly.

763
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: That's a great point snag. You can trace the loss

764
00:56:20,039 --> 00:56:24,679
of theological teaching in the icons themselves, right. Yeah, So

765
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,639
that that goal that's painted there, the halo that is

766
00:56:27,679 --> 00:56:32,320
supposed to signify transfiguration, the divine, the uncreated, divine light

767
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,719
in our realm. And you notice there above christ head,

768
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:41,320
what does it say, hold on? Right, see that. Yeah,

769
00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:47,960
oh ho omega new hold on right, the one I

770
00:56:48,159 --> 00:56:51,039
am he that's what it means, That's what it's referring to.

771
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,760
So the loss of iconographic truths is connected to the

772
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:57,400
loss of theological truths.

773
00:56:59,519 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 5: Yeah. So you can see it everywhere, by the way,

774
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:09,159
For example, is the Oriental Orthodox, you know the Monophysites

775
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,440
monophsycte metaphysite. What was one of the first actions of

776
00:57:13,599 --> 00:57:20,440
servers of Antioch when when seizing his cathedral and removing icons?

777
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,440
Used to be like that bismal found Yeah, I checked

778
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:29,480
the sources that quote scholar.

779
00:57:33,039 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: Eire you checked it out.

780
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 5: What check checked? There are several sources that are matching. Uh.

781
00:57:45,239 --> 00:57:47,280
So they used to be.

782
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: It is hello, hello, snack, Hello, you're cutting out? Can

783
00:57:59,440 --> 00:57:59,920
you start over?

784
00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:00,119
Speaker 5: There?

785
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:00,599
Speaker 1: Used to be what.

786
00:58:03,519 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, there used to be a bird to signify

787
00:58:07,039 --> 00:58:11,840
the Holy Spirit, to signify the theophony of Christ. And

788
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,119
the first thing that he did was remove it, remove

789
00:58:14,159 --> 00:58:14,840
it melted down.

790
00:58:15,239 --> 00:58:18,039
Speaker 1: Just like now. We got some people in the chats

791
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,400
trying to say Severs was not an iconoclast. So do

792
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,119
you have a I'm not saying you're wrong, but do

793
00:58:23,159 --> 00:58:23,960
you have a source on that?

794
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 5: Yeah? I'm gonna I'm gonna find it. I've got all

795
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:32,239
sourced on my server. Okay.

796
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: Second, by the way, so snackt server is listed there.

797
00:58:35,679 --> 00:58:37,880
His discord is in is in the show description. If

798
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:39,840
you want to go in there and or you can

799
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,119
come to my server and we can we can hash

800
00:58:42,159 --> 00:58:44,840
it out there if you want to do that. But

801
00:58:46,039 --> 00:58:46,519
I'll go ahead.

802
00:58:46,519 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 5: I don't mean to control all right, Yeah, I'm gonna

803
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:53,199
send the source, have it right now. But by the way,

804
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,639
that this is actually a recurrent problem in is your I.

805
00:58:57,639 --> 00:59:01,519
Speaker 1: Mean, they have problems with maintaining their iconographic tradition even now.

806
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:07,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so I'm gonna go on this one. Actually,

807
00:59:07,679 --> 00:59:12,519
they had an iconoclastic patriarch in the nineteenth century serial

808
00:59:12,639 --> 00:59:16,880
the sixth or the fourth I think the sixth, yeah,

809
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:20,679
serial the fourth series. The fourth actually burned down icons

810
00:59:22,199 --> 00:59:25,239
So that was in the nineteenth century. That's that's very new.

811
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:29,880
So they lost a lot of the partrimony to to Islam.

812
00:59:31,039 --> 00:59:33,519
And yeah, this was like the last name on the coffin.

813
00:59:34,039 --> 00:59:37,800
And today you can see that the tradition of iconography

814
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:44,559
in the in the Coptic Church sadly was recreated from nothing.

815
00:59:45,679 --> 00:59:49,119
So after after they destroyed the patrimony. It was the

816
00:59:49,199 --> 00:59:52,760
first time of you know, inter Christian meetings, and they

817
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,440
got help from the from the Catholics in re establishing

818
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:01,079
iconographic tradition and basically the flicks and some prost and

819
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:04,719
you know, they believe the Cops to be you know,

820
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:10,519
Eastern simplistic, and that's why they made icons that were

821
01:00:10,599 --> 01:00:16,840
based of you know, more shide like. Ye, it looks

822
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:21,599
like far to an extent. So yeah, that's why it

823
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,559
is as it is right now. But there has been

824
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,920
a constant problem because of Christological problems as well.

825
01:00:28,679 --> 01:00:32,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, ultimately the root is Christological quite quite clearly.

826
01:00:32,199 --> 01:00:33,960
And it's interesting that you see both in the in

827
01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:38,159
the the so called Oriental Orthodox Churches and in the

828
01:00:38,239 --> 01:00:41,760
Roman Catholic Churches, both of these groups kind of going

829
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,400
off and doing all kinds of weird things, right, and

830
01:00:44,679 --> 01:00:48,559
because there's not a consistent canonical holding to what the

831
01:00:48,599 --> 01:00:51,519
Seventh Ecumenical Council laid down. And if you don't know,

832
01:00:51,719 --> 01:00:54,559
the Seventh that Coumenical Council did not just say we

833
01:00:54,679 --> 01:00:57,039
have icons. Okay, Roman Catholics. I don't know if you

834
01:00:57,199 --> 01:01:01,039
know this, but that the Council actually produced an entire

835
01:01:01,679 --> 01:01:04,960
series of anathemas called the Sonoticon of Orthodoxy. If you're

836
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,320
in a Russian Orthodox Church or more traditional Orthodox church,

837
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,559
they will actually read all of the anathemas and maybe

838
01:01:11,639 --> 01:01:14,960
even some spicy little new ones like the Metropolitan surfem

839
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,000
and Pereis does. So I'll put in the link in

840
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,760
the chat there the link to the full Sonoticon of Orthodoxy,

841
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:24,800
which is part of the liturgy. It's actually read out

842
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,840
in the liturgy most of the time. If you're at

843
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,519
a liturgy where the bishop is present, they'll do kind

844
01:01:33,559 --> 01:01:35,920
of the full thing. You can go to Ortho Christian

845
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:37,960
or you can look on YouTube and you can hear

846
01:01:38,039 --> 01:01:41,880
the full anathemas being read out. And this is interesting

847
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:51,280
because the anathemas anathematize Hellenism, Platonism, Arisitilianism, Originism. All of

848
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,480
these heresies are read in the anathemas. And yet what

849
01:01:54,599 --> 01:01:59,320
do we have clowns today who want to resurrect all

850
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:03,360
of these heresies. Now, a lot of the trads and

851
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,079
people like this have tried to call out us as

852
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:12,639
Hellenists and Neoplatonists actually weakened them. Neoplatonism in the sonata

853
01:02:12,719 --> 01:02:15,960
con and it's you guys that have adopted the neoplatonic

854
01:02:16,119 --> 01:02:22,239
doctrine of statue aaryan images. Yeah.

855
01:02:22,639 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, so again, you know, we only tuit that maintained

856
01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:29,880
something consistent. There were problems in the Roman Catholic world.

857
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:33,440
You can see that it's constantly degrading. You know, it

858
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,800
moved to more purely symbolical. You know, he started the

859
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,320
lemb of God. He remembers this canon I mentioned. I

860
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,440
guess what, you know, it's the canons that allows us

861
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:47,960
to have icons, and Rome doesn't follow it. So, you know,

862
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:53,719
Zabell allow more and more the artists to come in.

863
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Chinese Jesus, black Jesus, which is not as gnostic.

864
01:02:58,599 --> 01:03:00,719
You have to depict, do you ish Jesus?

865
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, like you know, and if you want Christ to

866
01:03:06,519 --> 01:03:11,159
be your race to feel concerned by salvation, you know,

867
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:15,280
then you're a really racist. You know, you believe you're

868
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,480
not consubstantial with a black person.

869
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:22,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. Human nature is universal, and Christ assumed

870
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,840
universal human nature and his singular hypostasis as the teaching

871
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,159
of the fathers. Yeah, and again.

872
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:33,079
Speaker 5: It removes the idea of Mesianity. The Messiah is specifically

873
01:03:33,519 --> 01:03:34,320
a son of David.

874
01:03:34,599 --> 01:03:37,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has to fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament,

875
01:03:37,719 --> 01:03:41,079
namely that the root of David, right, this is Isaiah eleven.

876
01:03:41,119 --> 01:03:44,000
I just read it last night. Now noticed also that

877
01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:47,599
this is I believe. This is why this is not

878
01:03:47,679 --> 01:03:50,679
a kind of Orthodox. He mentions the Platonic ideas. He

879
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:55,119
says to them who refashioned creation by means of mythical

880
01:03:55,159 --> 01:03:59,440
fabrications and accept the Platonic ideas as veritable, saying that

881
01:03:59,599 --> 01:04:03,119
matter being subsistent is given form by the Platonic ideas,

882
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,840
who thereby calumniate the free will of God, the Creator,

883
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,280
who brought all things into being out of non beings.

884
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:13,079
So there's creation x nilo, and who, as Maker established

885
01:04:13,159 --> 01:04:17,239
the beginning of all things by the authority of his sovereignty. Anathema, anathema, anathema,

886
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,960
so there's the triple anathema is pronounced by those who

887
01:04:21,039 --> 01:04:25,320
teach the Neoplatonic doctrine of creation as an emanation of

888
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:29,239
divine ideas, to those who then also babble about the

889
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:34,239
general resurrection, this is gnostic stuff here. And then to

890
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,599
those who have the Greek teaching of the pre existence

891
01:04:36,639 --> 01:04:43,199
of souls and the restoration of all beings, Originism anathema, anathema,

892
01:04:43,239 --> 01:04:47,400
anathema right to those who have the pagan heterodox teaching

893
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,719
of Again, it's just talking about the Greeks, Greek Hellenism.

894
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,800
It's condemned multiple times over in the Sonoticon. So anybody

895
01:04:54,800 --> 01:05:01,840
who goes to an Orthodox Sunday of Orthodoxy liturgy, I forgot.

896
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:06,079
The Aristotle is mentioned too, by the way, the ideas

897
01:05:06,559 --> 01:05:10,559
of Plato, the heresies of Aristotle, they're all mentioned as anathema.

898
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:16,440
So this nonsense that Orthodoxy is neoplatonic is actually ironically

899
01:05:16,559 --> 01:05:20,599
refuted in the very Council that Protestants and Trads think

900
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:23,719
is sometimes neoplatonic. That's the irony here.

901
01:05:24,719 --> 01:05:27,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, and of course you know it's the center of

902
01:05:27,119 --> 01:05:29,559
Orthodox history at the same time where we parade the icons,

903
01:05:29,599 --> 01:05:33,880
you know, we so everything is linked. That's what It's

904
01:05:34,039 --> 01:05:36,840
very powerful, and that's why we should really keep to

905
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:45,639
our iconographic tradition because it testifies for theology, for history everything. Actually,

906
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,599
I've made an article on my site and just before icons,

907
01:05:48,599 --> 01:05:51,280
the economic Crucifixion, I managed to cover the detrition of

908
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:56,480
faith of all seven of the first sec medical consuls.

909
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,519
It's very deep. It's very rich, and that's why we

910
01:05:59,599 --> 01:06:02,280
really need to keep to it. Everything is there for

911
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:06,119
a reason. The hello is specifically here to depig divine energies,

912
01:06:06,199 --> 01:06:08,280
which is which is why it's funny, because we can

913
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:12,239
see degrade very fast in other churches do not accept

914
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:17,519
the distinction, and iconography needs to keep to to some

915
01:06:17,719 --> 01:06:20,719
cannons otherwise it will it will degrade. And that's what

916
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,480
you'll see in Rome because the prices and become iconoclass.

917
01:06:24,559 --> 01:06:26,360
And we're going to see why in a minute. But

918
01:06:26,719 --> 01:06:32,280
how does romance this by using icons to antagonize them

919
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:37,159
by starting to paint the theatre because as basically a

920
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:42,960
cone of jewelry being being, you know, using more and

921
01:06:43,079 --> 01:06:49,519
more precious matter, using more and more statuary, and it's

922
01:06:49,559 --> 01:06:52,559
just a way to empaganize them. So again you can

923
01:06:52,599 --> 01:06:57,280
see that bad icons. It can evolve to an extent

924
01:06:57,519 --> 01:07:04,199
into idolatry. And it's also iconopleasm because you're also destroying

925
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:10,880
a real type by corrupting the icon and only should

926
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:15,960
maybe covers a prostans, yes, because because the prostant's originally

927
01:07:16,119 --> 01:07:18,599
Lutheran's on the accepted images to an.

928
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:21,679
Speaker 1: Extent, Yeah, this is a weird one. Because you know,

929
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,920
you've got or the first generation Reformers kind of don't

930
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,920
go as far as you know, Puritans and stuff like that,

931
01:07:30,119 --> 01:07:32,760
so you'll get like perpetual virginity of Mary is taught

932
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:37,239
by Luther and Calvin. Luther has a you know, baptismal regeneration.

933
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:40,239
He has no problem with some weird doctrine of real

934
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:44,920
presence based on Christ's humanity taking on divine properties. He

935
01:07:45,559 --> 01:07:49,480
has no problem with, you know, some imagery and some

936
01:07:49,639 --> 01:07:51,639
sacraments in the sense of like priests and this kind

937
01:07:51,639 --> 01:07:54,199
of stuff. And then over time it just kind of

938
01:07:54,679 --> 01:07:58,760
falls away because it's all just the next guy's opinion, right,

939
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:02,559
It's like it's not based grounded in anything beyond the

940
01:08:02,679 --> 01:08:06,480
latest dude in his ideas. And that's the bane of

941
01:08:06,519 --> 01:08:10,360
all Protestantism. And that's why it's the next phase of

942
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,039
the Puritans who really go crazy with this. And what's

943
01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:16,600
funny is, and I've spent many years you know, in Calvinism.

944
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,159
I know it very well. You'll never get a consistent

945
01:08:19,239 --> 01:08:23,000
idea from Calvinist as to what is and isn't idolatry

946
01:08:23,039 --> 01:08:25,000
in this sense, right, So I talked about the regular

947
01:08:25,119 --> 01:08:27,720
principle earlier. But it even goes so far to people

948
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:31,199
like if you read Charles Hodge, the famous systematic theologian

949
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:35,880
Presbyterian theologian. They were having debates in Hodge's day as

950
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:41,239
to whether the Ten Commandments forbade having making a map literally,

951
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:43,800
like there were Puritans who argued that you can't have

952
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:47,640
maps because it's an idol. It's that stupid.

953
01:08:49,199 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 5: Yeah. But the funny thing is that prost and God's

954
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:56,800
ConA class him from a Catholic saint, from Theodal Forfolians.

955
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:00,239
So Calvin, when he was looking as a consul, he

956
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:04,600
found that field Wilf rejected it and he actually went

957
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:08,399
none of it. So it's very funny. But the source

958
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:13,560
of prost and iconoclasm is a Catholic saint. So today's

959
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:17,640
Catholic will be complaining about this, but it came through

960
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:20,359
one of your guys, and the president will will be

961
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,479
very anti Islam. And actually, if you trace the root

962
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,159
of the econoclasm, you know, from the Muslim to the

963
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:31,159
to the Byzantine economclass crisis, to the Franks too, to

964
01:09:31,239 --> 01:09:35,279
the early reformers to them, their econoclasm actually comes from Islam,

965
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:39,279
which is very funny. When you think about it, because

966
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:45,039
this iconoclasm is revived by Calvin and you've got people

967
01:09:45,319 --> 01:09:49,079
who was a president that you have today will tell

968
01:09:49,079 --> 01:09:53,319
you you cannot you cannot have anything that veneration. You

969
01:09:53,359 --> 01:09:55,560
can have statues, you can have stuff, but they're gonna

970
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,600
have pictures, they're gonna have Yeah.

971
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:01,720
Speaker 1: And ironically, the Protestants, by the way, also almost to

972
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,479
a t ninety nine point nine percent of them all

973
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:08,079
fall into crystallogical heresies. So once again you see that

974
01:10:08,199 --> 01:10:13,640
the rejection of the liturgical principle. They don't even realize

975
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,960
that it's connected to their crystallogical heresy because they're almost

976
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:19,000
all a historian, especially if you look at their doctrine

977
01:10:19,039 --> 01:10:26,119
penal sanction, penal sacrifice, penal sanction. Their doctrine of justification

978
01:10:26,359 --> 01:10:29,319
is premised on the idea of the damning of the

979
01:10:29,399 --> 01:10:32,520
second person, that godhead, so that leads them to the

980
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:37,640
Nestorian doctrine to maintain their justification doctrine, and then everything else.

981
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,039
Christology is just an afterthought to Calvinism. They don't even

982
01:10:41,119 --> 01:10:42,680
know what you're talking about when you get into it.

983
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a funny thing. Ultimately, the consistency of the

984
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:55,079
Orthodox econographic tradition is literally an icon of for theology exactly,

985
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,840
and that's why it's very important. That's why we we

986
01:11:00,079 --> 01:11:02,640
accuse the icons as that's why we have no problem

987
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:07,359
generating them. That's why it's very important in a worship.

988
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:13,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why the apathetic theology is connected to iconography.

989
01:11:13,279 --> 01:11:15,079
That might sound a little bit strange, but once again,

990
01:11:15,279 --> 01:11:17,159
you have to have the nature Verson distinction, the Essen

991
01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:21,600
synerg distinction in order to have iconography. And it makes sense.

992
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:25,560
That's how we're not ident we're not picturing or circumscribing

993
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:30,039
the uncircumscribable essence of God. But the second person of

994
01:11:30,079 --> 01:11:33,800
the Godhead became circumscribable, as St. Theodore and Saint John

995
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,000
Damascus say. So even though the interest, by the way,

996
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,239
I would add, just to kind of go through a

997
01:11:39,279 --> 01:11:42,920
little bit of Saint Theodore's argumentation, he says, the incarnation

998
01:11:43,119 --> 01:11:48,239
is a paradox, not a contradiction. How the uncircumscribable God

999
01:11:49,199 --> 01:11:52,319
became circumscribed, we do not know, but we do accept

1000
01:11:52,359 --> 01:11:54,560
it because it is revealed that way. And then he

1001
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,239
goes on to say that part of the argumentation of

1002
01:11:57,439 --> 01:11:59,479
iconography is based on the fact that there's no human

1003
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:02,600
hypo states in Christ. It's the second person the God

1004
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:07,920
had who assumed human nature, and so therefore iconographic representation

1005
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:12,359
directly refutes Nestorianism. Therefore, it's not an accident that the

1006
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:16,119
Puritans and the Iconoclasts are an nestorian in their Christology.

1007
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:22,319
He says, God did not become incarnate in a mental way, right,

1008
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,760
Why didn't God just choose to become a mental representation

1009
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:29,600
to us? Maybe God could have just beamed right, the

1010
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,399
logos mentality to us in a mental way, but he

1011
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:38,039
actually chose to become physical you see. Next he st

1012
01:12:38,119 --> 01:12:41,119
Theodore argues the real presence. He says, the real presence

1013
01:12:41,159 --> 01:12:48,119
itself presupposes that it is biblical to iconographically represent Christ

1014
01:12:48,239 --> 01:12:51,840
because Christ chose to icon himself, you could say, in

1015
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,680
an incarnate state. He says that when we look at

1016
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:59,600
the cross, it burns the devils in exorcisms. Right by

1017
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:02,720
the way, are the Calvinists exorcists? There aren't any. There

1018
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:04,800
never have been because they don't have power. They don't

1019
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:08,359
have the authority of the church because they aren't the church. Next,

1020
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:10,239
he says that one of the reasons that we can

1021
01:13:10,319 --> 01:13:12,000
know this is true is that the tradition of the

1022
01:13:12,119 --> 01:13:21,119
Church has always held this right. Tradition is another strong argument. Next,

1023
01:13:21,199 --> 01:13:24,560
he goes on to refuting them from scripture. He does

1024
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:27,760
a bunch of argumentation that I did that you saw

1025
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:30,319
me do from In fact, I think I wrote that

1026
01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:32,880
article a long time ago, ten years ago. On the

1027
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:38,239
basis of this writing of this work, I highly recommend this.

1028
01:13:38,279 --> 01:13:39,640
I don't know if it's still available, but you can

1029
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:43,000
get it on Amazon, or it's the Saint Lad's edition

1030
01:13:43,239 --> 01:13:46,760
of Saint Theodore the studit. But this should this should,

1031
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,800
this would refute anything like that. We see texts even

1032
01:13:50,119 --> 01:13:55,000
there's one I forgot, Wisdom six five and six, which

1033
01:13:55,119 --> 01:13:58,800
is applied to honoring the emperor. I think Wisdom sixty

1034
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:01,760
five and six talks about honoring the emperor, and I

1035
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:06,279
think it uses the Greek word uh dulia.

1036
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:08,359
Speaker 2: What else?

1037
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 1: I'm just breezing through this to see there's any other good.

1038
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,199
He argues that it's pretty much the universal teaching of

1039
01:14:15,279 --> 01:14:18,279
the fathers and the councils. So if you reject imagery

1040
01:14:18,319 --> 01:14:22,000
and icons by extension, you're also going to reject relics,

1041
01:14:22,199 --> 01:14:25,520
and you're also going to reject the reality of grace.

1042
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,920
And the sacraments. And guess what, that's what the Calvinists do.

1043
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, a whole doctrine of deification. Well, what what are relics?

1044
01:14:35,119 --> 01:14:37,720
Relics are part of a person who became an icon,

1045
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:40,319
a part of a person who became day fighted like

1046
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:45,000
truly day fight. So it's also fully linked to divine energies.

1047
01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:48,439
You know, we we do not. We do not venerate

1048
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:52,960
someone was defied by an angel, by by by a creature.

1049
01:14:54,119 --> 01:14:59,279
We venerate a person who truly became the icon. I've

1050
01:14:59,319 --> 01:15:02,520
got through God any divine energies.

1051
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:06,319
Speaker 1: Yep. He also argues that Christ can be circumscribed as

1052
01:15:06,359 --> 01:15:10,479
an individual because he became an individual in terms of

1053
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,760
his human nature. He although he assumed human nature in general,

1054
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,319
he says, he became singular in terms of his historic

1055
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:20,119
incarnate state. This human nature did not have its existence

1056
01:15:20,159 --> 01:15:24,159
in a self subsisting, circumscribed person. As if there was

1057
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,880
a hypostasis apart from the word. The word is the

1058
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:32,279
only hypostasis, but has its existence in the humanity has

1059
01:15:32,319 --> 01:15:34,640
its existence in the hypostasis of the word, which is what,

1060
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,399
of course I've always said. If there is, however, a

1061
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:41,800
second person, Oh excuse me, if because a second person

1062
01:15:42,039 --> 01:15:45,000
is not admitted in the hypostasis of Christ, the iconoclass

1063
01:15:45,119 --> 01:15:49,319
should say that the hypostasis is therefore uncircumscribable in respect

1064
01:15:49,359 --> 01:15:52,159
to his humanity, they must necessarily say that there is

1065
01:15:52,399 --> 01:15:55,359
one nature of the word compounded from two natures, and

1066
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:58,439
therefore uncircumscribed because the property of one of the two

1067
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,439
natures has been a limited eminated, which is to fall

1068
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,359
into the heresy of the apollinarians. So in other words,

1069
01:16:04,399 --> 01:16:07,119
it's removing the full humanity of Christ to say that

1070
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:12,640
Christ cannot be circumscribed or pictured or imaged, because if

1071
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:14,720
he's fully man, he can be circumscribed.

1072
01:16:18,159 --> 01:16:18,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1073
01:16:18,399 --> 01:16:24,119
Speaker 1: Correct, which is because I wouldn't have thought about that

1074
01:16:24,279 --> 01:16:28,039
being an a pollinarian conclusion which removes the full humanity.

1075
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:31,239
But it would be right. It's not exactly identical to

1076
01:16:31,319 --> 01:16:35,399
what a pollinarist said, because he replaced the mind of

1077
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:37,600
Christ with the logos, and he said that Christ didn't

1078
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:40,079
have a fully human mind. But it's the same idea

1079
01:16:40,199 --> 01:16:43,039
of a pollinarianism by making Christ not fully human by

1080
01:16:43,119 --> 01:16:46,520
saying that because of the incarnation, he cannot be circumscribed, right,

1081
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:53,960
that would be a gnostic a pollinarian slash heresy. Okay,

1082
01:16:57,359 --> 01:17:00,319
those are some good little arguments from a Saint Theodore.

1083
01:17:00,359 --> 01:17:05,119
And then, by extension, although not directly connected just to icons,

1084
01:17:06,119 --> 01:17:10,560
I will add that consistent with this flow of argumentation

1085
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:15,359
is the classic commentary of Saint Germanis of Constantinople on

1086
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:18,640
the Divine Liturgy. I read this back in two thousand

1087
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:20,760
and seven when I read this the Theodore of the

1088
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:23,119
Studeic Book, and they're both really good, and they go

1089
01:17:23,239 --> 01:17:26,560
together in terms of showing the continuity between liturgical worship

1090
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:28,800
and iconography. I mean, these all of these things are

1091
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,039
going to hang or fall together, right, They're gonna They're

1092
01:17:31,039 --> 01:17:34,279
gonna go together consistently. And he's going to argue that

1093
01:17:34,359 --> 01:17:41,239
the liturgy is just the worship of Heaven on earth, it.

1094
01:17:41,279 --> 01:17:45,960
Speaker 5: Which is signified by you know, as in Exodus, there's

1095
01:17:46,199 --> 01:17:51,039
the divine beings, Angel and so on. And that's why

1096
01:17:51,239 --> 01:17:53,920
we have the saints. That's why we represent the saints there,

1097
01:17:54,079 --> 01:17:57,039
because when you enter liturgy, you truly are in heaven.

1098
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:01,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you well, we read so when Moses goes on

1099
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:05,359
top of the mountain, he sees the worship of heaven,

1100
01:18:05,479 --> 01:18:10,079
and then when he comes down to establish the animal

1101
01:18:10,399 --> 01:18:14,960
sacrifices and the Mosaic ceremonies. The text explicitly says that

1102
01:18:15,199 --> 01:18:18,119
he Moses received a type of the things in heaven.

1103
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:22,399
So Mosaic worship, according to scripture, is a type tupos,

1104
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:27,039
an image of the heavenly worship when Jesus came and

1105
01:18:27,199 --> 01:18:30,760
set up the Lord's Supper and all the worship that

1106
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:35,159
we have. That is the reality of which the type signified.

1107
01:18:35,359 --> 01:18:37,720
So we don't have as the Protestants would have it,

1108
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:40,119
they would have us back in the Mosaic period of

1109
01:18:40,239 --> 01:18:44,600
still using types. No, the Mosaic administration was the types

1110
01:18:45,039 --> 01:18:47,199
Jesus brought the reality. Therefore you have to believe in

1111
01:18:47,239 --> 01:18:49,439
the real presence. But all the Protestants want to go

1112
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:51,840
back to the Mosaic period to say always just types

1113
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:56,560
and symbols. No, it's the reality, the real power, the

1114
01:18:56,720 --> 01:19:00,560
reality of Pentecosts, the reality of body blows soul and

1115
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:04,720
uncreated grace energy is present in the worship. That's why

1116
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:08,840
only Orthodox worship is the full continuity with the synagogue

1117
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:11,600
and temple. If you want to read about that, read

1118
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:12,039
this book.

1119
01:19:13,159 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's the part for points that I wanted

1120
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:18,560
to make. If you look at the history of the Church,

1121
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:23,520
be it in terms of theology, worship, and iconography, with

1122
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:28,239
the only church that did not degenerate, you know, one

1123
01:19:28,399 --> 01:19:32,119
or the other. We are a perfect continuity. And this

1124
01:19:32,319 --> 01:19:35,279
is all present in the icons themselves, in the way

1125
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:39,399
we understand them, in the way we pain them. It's

1126
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:40,239
a complete system.

1127
01:19:40,359 --> 01:19:42,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember when I was when I was looking

1128
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,760
into Orthodoxy, you know, I was. I had gone from

1129
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:48,800
Calvinism into Rome Catholicism. I'd been Romancalluy for many years,

1130
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:50,239
and I was starting to look at Orthodoxy about two

1131
01:19:50,239 --> 01:19:54,079
thousand and seven six, and I was thinking, well, why

1132
01:19:54,159 --> 01:19:59,359
do they Why is the iconographic tradition done a certain way?

1133
01:20:00,399 --> 01:20:04,239
And I didn't really understand that it was because of

1134
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:08,039
the theological positions. Right, So when you read Saint Theodore,

1135
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:10,600
and I got my notes here that I made back

1136
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:12,600
in two thousand and seven, where I was, I was

1137
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:15,560
writing out what hypostasis means, and I was writing about

1138
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:17,880
what a historian and what fusis is. Right, So I

1139
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:20,720
was actually making all these notes about the significance of

1140
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:22,720
these things because Sat Theodore is arguing.

1141
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:23,000
Speaker 5: That the.

1142
01:20:25,319 --> 01:20:30,880
Speaker 1: Meaning, the symbolism, the form, the structure, the balance, the colors.

1143
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:36,520
The way the iconographic presentation is put forth is all

1144
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:41,960
to teach and signify the theological meanings. And once you

1145
01:20:42,159 --> 01:20:47,239
learn how precise Orthodox theology is, then it makes sense. Oh,

1146
01:20:47,319 --> 01:20:50,079
now I understand why it's so precise like that, it's

1147
01:20:50,159 --> 01:20:52,359
not just made up. Oh, let's just do it this way.

1148
01:20:54,119 --> 01:20:58,159
Speaker 5: Exactly. And that's why this is an emphasis on not innovating,

1149
01:20:58,439 --> 01:20:58,640
you know.

1150
01:20:59,079 --> 01:21:01,159
Speaker 1: Exactly, Yeah, because would change the theology.

1151
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:03,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, we don't. We don't call people like, you know,

1152
01:21:04,359 --> 01:21:07,359
icon artists. We call them iconography.

1153
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:12,039
Speaker 1: Writers exactly because they're they're writing the theological truths, just

1154
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:13,640
like you were writing a book.

1155
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,359
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, And that's the real danger of you know,

1156
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:25,600
introducing new traditions and transforming, transforming your iconographic tradition using artists.

1157
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,960
You know, Michael Angelo is a good example. But today

1158
01:21:29,039 --> 01:21:32,880
you can see, especially in the West, and some people

1159
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:36,199
want to do this to to to orthodox yicography. But

1160
01:21:36,399 --> 01:21:41,720
people like destroying religion itself by destroying these images.

1161
01:21:42,039 --> 01:21:44,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you want a good if you want a

1162
01:21:44,119 --> 01:21:45,600
good thing to read on this, if you read The

1163
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:49,560
Theology of the icon Volume two. The main reason I

1164
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:54,319
recommend this is because of the chapter on Orthodoxy versus humanism.

1165
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:58,920
So actually this chapter is about how the uncreated energies

1166
01:21:59,399 --> 01:22:02,079
are shown and taught in the theology of iconography, and

1167
01:22:02,199 --> 01:22:05,920
so the created light of Barlam is actually the reason

1168
01:22:06,039 --> 01:22:10,760
why the Latin tradition goes away from our tradition. That's

1169
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:13,520
there's a whole chapter on that very doctrine that that

1170
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:17,880
Snack was talking about earlier. That this book is worth

1171
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:23,359
it just for that chapter. Noticed that, right, hechasm and humanism.

1172
01:22:26,039 --> 01:22:31,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, and many of the things we can we can link,

1173
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:37,640
for example, is the emphasis of the renaissance and anatomy.

1174
01:22:38,239 --> 01:22:40,479
This is this is you know, we were moving away

1175
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:40,800
from that.

1176
01:22:41,119 --> 01:22:45,520
Speaker 1: Hold on can you say that again, renaissance on what anatomy?

1177
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:48,960
You know anatomy? Yes, exactly right, what what do you

1178
01:22:49,039 --> 01:22:51,560
make of that flesh? That out some more? That's a

1179
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:53,279
good thing, you know, and thought about.

1180
01:22:53,039 --> 01:22:56,439
Speaker 5: That we're moving away from this, you know, god centric

1181
01:22:56,560 --> 01:22:59,800
worship like why why why do we have a veneration

1182
01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:03,119
of icons Is because these people are saints because in

1183
01:23:03,279 --> 01:23:03,960
heaven you know.

1184
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:07,039
Speaker 1: Now we're like worshiping the form of the body.

1185
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you have the form of the body, you

1186
01:23:10,039 --> 01:23:14,640
have humanism, the hello st the beer and I think

1187
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:19,359
There's there's a painting of Christ's death, you know, Christ

1188
01:23:19,439 --> 01:23:23,359
in his tomb that was commented by Dostoevsky and he

1189
01:23:23,399 --> 01:23:26,000
said this picture could turn anybody into an atheist.

1190
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:30,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, I see.

1191
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:34,840
Speaker 5: Fully defeated Christ, fully defeated in that sense, you know,

1192
01:23:35,039 --> 01:23:39,319
like really represented as a carrier. And and I remember

1193
01:23:40,119 --> 01:23:44,000
was commenting in this painting saying, you're gonna have atheism.

1194
01:23:45,199 --> 01:23:51,239
That's why you have atheism because you you you two man,

1195
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:54,000
and you you will you worship, you know, with humanism

1196
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:59,159
man alone, and your iconography is showing it. And since

1197
01:23:59,239 --> 01:24:01,800
man is mortal, you're going to turn to atheism.

1198
01:24:02,319 --> 01:24:05,039
Speaker 1: Well, and this also explains why all this Renaissance stuff

1199
01:24:05,119 --> 01:24:08,199
is hermetic, right. I used to think that wasn't the case,

1200
01:24:08,319 --> 01:24:12,279
and then when I started reading like occult Renaissance Church

1201
01:24:12,359 --> 01:24:14,640
of Rome books like that, you realize that no, actually

1202
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:20,239
they really were Bernini, all these guys were deep into hermeticism, Leonardo.

1203
01:24:20,399 --> 01:24:23,880
They were into the occult alchemy, weird stuff. And that's

1204
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:26,439
why the stuff that they're painting. Even though we can

1205
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:31,760
appreciate the artistic skill, I'm not denying that these guys

1206
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:34,359
are good at what they do. But the point is

1207
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:37,600
that it is not the tradition of what had already

1208
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:40,680
been laid down at the seventh Ecamdical Council. I mean,

1209
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:43,119
look at these two things. You couldn't be further from

1210
01:24:43,159 --> 01:24:46,520
the truth, right. And again, it's not that we're we're

1211
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:50,199
not rating them on. Oh this one's cooler than that one.

1212
01:24:50,239 --> 01:24:53,039
That's not the point. The point is the theological doctrines

1213
01:24:53,079 --> 01:24:54,960
that are taught by these different traditions.

1214
01:24:55,039 --> 01:24:58,760
Speaker 5: You see, yeah, I mean you're showing your assisting chapel

1215
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:02,359
right now. It's very interesting because what does it teach us.

1216
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:05,159
First of all, the fathers represented. The father should not

1217
01:25:05,239 --> 01:25:05,800
be represented.

1218
01:25:06,159 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 1: You're not supposed to represent the father exactly, even though yes,

1219
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:12,640
I will have to admit trad sometimes Orthodox people are

1220
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:16,880
not consistent with this, they're not consistent. But technically you're

1221
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,920
not supposed to represent the father because the only representation

1222
01:25:21,039 --> 01:25:22,079
of the father is the son.

1223
01:25:23,079 --> 01:25:25,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, but here you can see a first Stringerian mistake

1224
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:32,399
in this very famous painting from the System Chapel. It's

1225
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:36,880
a father that gives life to creation, that gives.

1226
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:41,000
Speaker 1: Life to Aidam, but worse worse Christ.

1227
01:25:41,119 --> 01:25:45,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, the treaty does this, like Tenesis teaches. You can

1228
01:25:45,359 --> 01:25:48,239
see errors being introduced and layered and layered and layered,

1229
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:50,039
and of course these people are going to you know,

1230
01:25:50,119 --> 01:25:52,960
fully Christian. If you look at yeah, it's very emetic.

1231
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:56,520
You have a lot of esoteric stuff going in there.

1232
01:25:57,399 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. And if anybody doubts that, just read cult ren

1233
01:26:00,079 --> 01:26:02,439
not short of Rome. It proves that beyond any shadow

1234
01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:06,079
of a doubt, from hundreds of citations of the Renaissance

1235
01:26:06,279 --> 01:26:11,640
hermeticist scholars themselves. So let's see, was there anything else

1236
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:13,680
you want to get to If you get anything else

1237
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:15,359
in your notes, We've gone for about an hour and

1238
01:26:15,399 --> 01:26:17,720
a half and then we've got some super chats. But

1239
01:26:18,159 --> 01:26:19,600
we don't have to stop if you got more.

1240
01:26:21,279 --> 01:26:23,319
Speaker 5: No, I just want to say that today you can

1241
01:26:23,359 --> 01:26:27,319
see that these paintings here for the art people do

1242
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:31,279
not the no longer object of veneration. The theology is lost,

1243
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:34,119
and that's why sometime it will shocked Westerners and even

1244
01:26:34,199 --> 01:26:36,359
Catholic you know, when they say, oh, you know you're

1245
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:40,600
kissing icons. You know, it's it's weird. It's ironically, there

1246
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:43,920
will things that it's idolatrous because because of all these

1247
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:47,439
degradations that they've lost, this tradition, and that's very sad

1248
01:26:47,520 --> 01:26:50,399
because it's part with the seventh console, and you cannot

1249
01:26:50,399 --> 01:26:53,239
bring the seventh console against the price and to then

1250
01:26:53,359 --> 01:26:54,399
not respect it yourself.

1251
01:26:55,399 --> 01:26:57,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it also reminds me of the weird like another

1252
01:26:57,720 --> 01:27:00,880
weird thing that was. I'm pretty sure it's too. I mean,

1253
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:03,319
it's been fifteen years since I looked at this, but

1254
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:08,840
one of the famous Calvinist, Francis Turitan, speculated that after

1255
01:27:09,319 --> 01:27:13,079
the Resurrection, Jesus would shed his human nature, he wouldn't

1256
01:27:13,119 --> 01:27:18,319
need it anymore. Well, that's just more gnosticism, more proof

1257
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:23,479
that Protestantism, Calvinism, and Puritanism especially are gnosticism, because the

1258
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,119
whole point of the incarnation was that he would take

1259
01:27:26,199 --> 01:27:29,279
on human nature and that he would always and forever

1260
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:32,359
be incarnate. That's one of the amazing mysteries of the

1261
01:27:32,439 --> 01:27:37,560
incarnation is that that God will for all eternity be man. Right,

1262
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:39,640
the second person that got hit will forever an all

1263
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:43,680
eternity be man. He will never leave it, shed his

1264
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:45,840
humanity like it was some kind of snake skin or

1265
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:48,680
some nonsense like this. But I'm pretty sure a Turretin

1266
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:51,520
speculator said that maybe even Jonathan Edwards or somebody else,

1267
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:54,479
and the Calvinist tradition said something like that. But the

1268
01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:56,640
point is that that you're only saying that because you're

1269
01:27:56,640 --> 01:27:59,239
gnostic and they don't believe. As if you read the

1270
01:27:59,279 --> 01:28:02,239
Paniotas now Us, a book on deification, the whole first

1271
01:28:02,359 --> 01:28:06,680
chapter is dedicated to showing that the incarnation was always

1272
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:10,159
the plan. The incarnation is not a plan B based

1273
01:28:10,239 --> 01:28:13,520
on the fall. The incarnation was always the plant. Creation

1274
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:17,960
itself presupposes the incarnation, and that's unique to Orthodox theology,

1275
01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:18,399
by the way.

1276
01:28:20,359 --> 01:28:23,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, correct, Yeah, pretty good. We've covered the whole history

1277
01:28:23,319 --> 01:28:28,079
of it, We've covered the theology of it, gave examples. Yeah,

1278
01:28:28,079 --> 01:28:32,159
I'm pretty spect Okay, we've just extream. Yeah, we can

1279
01:28:32,199 --> 01:28:34,399
close and this and go to the super checks.

1280
01:28:34,399 --> 01:28:34,720
Speaker 2: All right.

1281
01:28:35,319 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 1: Our Seneca Arseni Boca for thirteen forty eight. He says,

1282
01:28:41,039 --> 01:28:46,319
our base relief presentation is part of Orthodoxy. I've not

1283
01:28:46,439 --> 01:28:50,359
seen them in Byzantine or Romanian churches, but I've seen

1284
01:28:50,399 --> 01:28:52,960
them in Russian churches. Do you have any opinions on this?

1285
01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:56,479
They seem to be classical, Hellenic and Catholic to me.

1286
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:00,399
I don't know specifically about that, but there are obviously,

1287
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:05,119
you know, representations that are more Western in style that

1288
01:29:05,319 --> 01:29:09,239
influenced different periods. I mean, this is this is true.

1289
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:11,680
You know in architecture that you have the you know,

1290
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:15,399
Saint Petersburg kind of being neo classical, and this kind

1291
01:29:15,399 --> 01:29:18,359
of stuff happens, of course, but I'm not so sure

1292
01:29:18,399 --> 01:29:22,640
that that that's necessary. Just because there's a cross pollination

1293
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:26,319
doesn't mean that, oh well, then we're denying the whole uh,

1294
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:29,680
you know, validity of the liturgy. I mean the point

1295
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:33,079
here is that it's what we're talking about is in

1296
01:29:33,159 --> 01:29:35,920
the context of the liturgy, in the context of the church.

1297
01:29:36,720 --> 01:29:40,760
So I don't know, do you know about Bay's relief representations?

1298
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:45,199
Speaker 5: Okay, so we do have icons, because that doesn't mean

1299
01:29:45,279 --> 01:29:48,439
we cannot have other sort of representation. We can have statuary,

1300
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:53,960
at least the cannons that condemned statues. It doesn't condemned

1301
01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:54,960
statues per se.

1302
01:29:55,039 --> 01:29:58,199
Speaker 1: It just says make sure, I mean you can have us. Yeah,

1303
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:01,920
I mean I could put a statue of Saint Paul

1304
01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:04,840
right here. So what but in terms of the liturgical worship,

1305
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:08,560
it's very precise as the point. And yeah, sometimes churches

1306
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:10,560
do not always follow this, right, I mean You've got

1307
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:14,039
Western ride churches that are using the some of them

1308
01:30:14,119 --> 01:30:17,199
are putting the Sacred Heart, well, the sacred Hearts in

1309
01:30:17,239 --> 01:30:20,239
the Historian and Jesuit. It's not Orthodox, it shouldn't be there.

1310
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:24,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I don't think barrel LIFs would be would

1311
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:27,680
be a problem specifically, you know, it's it's not a

1312
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:33,000
problem of the image being graven or not. So Yeah,

1313
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,520
I don't see I don't see any problem. We should

1314
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:40,319
try to keep to more classical iconographic standards because they're

1315
01:30:40,359 --> 01:30:44,439
here for a reason. But again, I've really seen like

1316
01:30:44,600 --> 01:30:49,319
really huge iconographic abuse except in some Western rights.

1317
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:50,039
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1318
01:30:50,319 --> 01:30:54,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, apartem is, I wouldn't consider this a big problem exactly.

1319
01:30:55,119 --> 01:31:00,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, A good point. Next question is Eastern Rome and

1320
01:31:00,199 --> 01:31:03,760
for five dollars, it's interesting to consider that the historical

1321
01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:08,720
context of why iconoclasm grew grew in popularity and empire

1322
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:12,800
since the Amorillon. I don't know what that is, the

1323
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:16,600
Amorione I introduced it in the wake of the loss

1324
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:22,119
of Egypt and the levant to the Muslims, I don't know.

1325
01:31:22,359 --> 01:31:26,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, people thought at the time that they were being

1326
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:29,439
punished the Islam was a score of God, which, by

1327
01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:34,600
the way, some people hold today and it is there

1328
01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:36,600
is the typology of the apocalypse, and you know, anti

1329
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:41,159
Christian Muhammad. But yeah, people thought that they were being

1330
01:31:41,239 --> 01:31:45,800
punished for excesses, especially in terms of some mosaics, iconography

1331
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:52,319
and song. So yeah, the idea of iconoclasm in Byzantium

1332
01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:55,680
came from Islam. So yeah, it's right.

1333
01:32:03,359 --> 01:32:07,760
Speaker 1: All right. So Eastern Romans says, sorry, my bad, it

1334
01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:16,960
was the Assaryoi. It was the Amorioi were after the Assorioid.

1335
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:24,399
Jeremy Milford donate his thirty dollars and he says Calvinists

1336
01:32:24,439 --> 01:32:30,319
will cite Irnas critiquing the Nostic carporcration usage of images

1337
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:33,960
in against Heresy's one twenty five six. Well, first of all, again,

1338
01:32:34,319 --> 01:32:37,760
if you read book three of Irenaeus and book four,

1339
01:32:38,239 --> 01:32:41,039
he's not a Calvinist. So he believes in Abstolt succession,

1340
01:32:41,079 --> 01:32:43,119
he believes in tradition, he believes in the Deudo canon,

1341
01:32:43,439 --> 01:32:45,439
he believes in the real presence of Christ. He will

1342
01:32:45,439 --> 01:32:47,880
believe and it believes in a succession of bishops. So

1343
01:32:48,319 --> 01:32:51,479
they're picking and choosing, obviously, as they always do. But

1344
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:55,239
the point is not that all images. The point is

1345
01:32:56,319 --> 01:32:59,680
whatever carpent cration images were being used. I mean a

1346
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:02,840
lot of these sex worship the serpent, So we'd have

1347
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:07,159
to see exactly what image the corpor creations we're using.

1348
01:33:09,159 --> 01:33:11,720
Go ahead, I'm gonna look at that quote and see

1349
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:12,159
what he says.

1350
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:15,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're gonna find some church. Father would say that

1351
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:18,640
good prayers don't visit image. And it is true, like

1352
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:21,760
you know, when you do the Hezekas prayer, you shouldn't

1353
01:33:22,079 --> 01:33:24,960
you shouldn't image things, You shouldn't have images in your head.

1354
01:33:25,399 --> 01:33:27,600
But that doesn't mean that you cannot have image in worship.

1355
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:30,560
That doesn't mean that you can signify and teach through

1356
01:33:30,640 --> 01:33:33,600
these things. And actually that's an error that some Oriental

1357
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:39,000
Orthodox do. So they keep to teachings of Evagrius Spontikus

1358
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:42,960
on the image, and they actually removed all images from

1359
01:33:43,279 --> 01:33:46,760
the liturgy. They're not econoclastic, per saved. It's a semi

1360
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:51,399
econoclastic because of this, at least a lot of them are.

1361
01:33:52,079 --> 01:33:57,840
But that's again creating a needless, needless dialectic. You know,

1362
01:33:58,119 --> 01:34:03,479
just because theosis for us is a process of prayer

1363
01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:08,880
and of you know, being apathetic, removing ideas from your

1364
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:12,199
head doesn't mean that we cannot have images. And again

1365
01:34:12,279 --> 01:34:16,880
we've seen that icons are linked to apophetic theology, so

1366
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:18,039
it's linked.

1367
01:34:18,399 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and then when we read what the actual

1368
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:24,159
quote says, it doesn't prove what the Calvinist wants. As usually,

1369
01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:28,479
I'll read the quote, some of the Gnostics employ outward marks,

1370
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,760
branding their disciples inside the whole of the right ear

1371
01:34:32,359 --> 01:34:35,840
from Among these they also arose a certain Marcellina who

1372
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:40,319
came to Rome under the episcopate of an Isotus, and

1373
01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:44,039
he held these doctrines, and she led many multitudes astray.

1374
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:48,199
They styled themselves Gnostics and possessed images, some of which

1375
01:34:48,239 --> 01:34:51,159
are painted, others of which are formed of different kinds

1376
01:34:51,199 --> 01:34:54,479
of materials. While they maintained that a likeness of Christ

1377
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:58,319
was created by Pilot at the time when Jesus lived

1378
01:34:58,319 --> 01:35:01,199
among them. They crowned the these images and set these

1379
01:35:01,239 --> 01:35:04,079
images up along with images of the philosophers of the world,

1380
01:35:04,239 --> 01:35:08,239
such as Pythagoras, Plato, and Aristotle. They have modes of

1381
01:35:08,359 --> 01:35:11,600
honoring these images that is the same as the honor

1382
01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:16,680
of the gentiles. So it's talking about idolatrous pagan images.

1383
01:35:17,079 --> 01:35:22,840
It's not saying that all imagery itself is wrong. Let's see.

1384
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:27,600
But good question, Jeremy. Now Bill for five dollars, what

1385
01:35:28,079 --> 01:35:31,920
snacks imagine? I don't know what that means, but thank you,

1386
01:35:32,079 --> 01:35:37,079
No Bill, Mowgli for ten dollars. What does the image

1387
01:35:37,159 --> 01:35:42,199
at the bottom of some Orthodox Study Bibles represent? The

1388
01:35:42,319 --> 01:35:47,159
image at the bottom that I mean, it's just the

1389
01:35:47,279 --> 01:35:51,560
dome of the church with a cross. So is that?

1390
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:54,319
I guess that's what you're talking about, Mowgli. If you

1391
01:35:54,399 --> 01:35:57,600
want to qualify that in the chat, let me know.

1392
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:05,439
But I don't. I don't know what else you're talking about. Okay,

1393
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:07,439
it says that the spine of the Orthodox Study at all,

1394
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:11,680
it's just a church with a dome of a church.

1395
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:15,279
Speaker 5: That's it is the logo of Ancient Face Radio.

1396
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:19,279
Speaker 1: It might be their logo or is it just a dome.

1397
01:36:19,319 --> 01:36:19,560
Speaker 3: I don't.

1398
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:25,119
Speaker 1: I don't even know what the logo is anyway, it's

1399
01:36:25,199 --> 01:36:27,479
not a mystic that's the teric symbol.

1400
01:36:30,039 --> 01:36:30,359
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1401
01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:36,600
Speaker 1: Thanks has donated fifteen dollars, Thanks well, thank you. Thanks

1402
01:36:37,319 --> 01:36:41,720
Levilla Floria, Levu Floria three dollars. The Renaissance was funded

1403
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:45,199
by international bank elite families such as the Medicis, who

1404
01:36:45,199 --> 01:36:48,960
flourished in Italy around the center of an international finance

1405
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:51,399
at the time. Yes, that is true. I have read

1406
01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:54,399
multiple books that cover that, and I think it's also

1407
01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:57,640
covered in a cult Renaissance Church of Rome. That is correct.

1408
01:36:58,279 --> 01:37:01,800
Mima phobe five dollars. Do you have any thoughts on

1409
01:37:02,199 --> 01:37:05,199
the terraffim mentioned many times in the Old Testament? It

1410
01:37:05,279 --> 01:37:09,319
just means statue and what because David had a terraffim

1411
01:37:09,399 --> 01:37:12,239
for example, when he snuck out and he put a

1412
01:37:12,319 --> 01:37:16,119
traffim under the sheets, he did the whole cartoon teenager

1413
01:37:16,199 --> 01:37:18,479
trick of like putting a statue under the sheet so

1414
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:25,319
it looks like somebody's asleep. That's all teriffim means. But

1415
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:30,119
it also could be a statue used in pagan worship. So,

1416
01:37:30,319 --> 01:37:32,760
but just having a statue, there's nothing wrong with that.

1417
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:38,800
David had a terraffim, It wasn't an idol. What does

1418
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:41,279
that tell us about changes and what was acceptable in

1419
01:37:41,479 --> 01:37:43,279
the early Biblical era. Well, if you listen to the

1420
01:37:43,319 --> 01:37:46,039
whole talk, nothing changed. That was the whole point of

1421
01:37:46,079 --> 01:37:49,359
this talk is that we have a consistent a kind

1422
01:37:49,399 --> 01:37:53,560
of graphic presentation. There was no no images in the

1423
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:56,439
Old Testament. Now you can use images. That's simply not true.

1424
01:37:56,640 --> 01:38:00,439
I mean, the temple is full of Imagesiam, do you

1425
01:38:00,479 --> 01:38:01,159
have anything to say on.

1426
01:38:01,159 --> 01:38:04,960
Speaker 5: That, Snick, No, I mean, you know, we've we've proven

1427
01:38:05,039 --> 01:38:09,600
that point by point from Oltists and Bible, New Testament,

1428
01:38:11,199 --> 01:38:13,399
apostlic times to today.

1429
01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:17,520
Speaker 1: William Bergen ten dollars, snack and jay, I am newly

1430
01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:24,319
illumined here, welcome many years. Is anti is anti Marianism

1431
01:38:24,399 --> 01:38:28,079
connected to iconoclasm? Yes, So, even though it might be

1432
01:38:28,159 --> 01:38:32,359
directly connected to it, the consistent presentation, as we said,

1433
01:38:32,439 --> 01:38:36,319
of theosis, real presence of Christ liturgy, all of these

1434
01:38:36,359 --> 01:38:38,479
things kind of go together. So the very idea of

1435
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:42,800
the the the theotokis being raised to the status of

1436
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:46,399
the highest of God's creatures, Queen of Heaven and Apocalypse twelve,

1437
01:38:46,840 --> 01:38:51,439
it would pretty, you know, pretty necessarily be connected to iconoclasm.

1438
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:54,199
And as we said, iconoclasm is just kind of another

1439
01:38:54,319 --> 01:38:57,319
denial of the incarnation. So when you deny the incarnation

1440
01:38:57,479 --> 01:39:01,920
in the Orthodox sense, you get these weird deviations and

1441
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:05,239
these weird sex and these weird views that also will

1442
01:39:05,319 --> 01:39:09,119
have heretical heterodox views in other areas of their theology.

1443
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:13,560
So naturally they're going to you know, prefer Nestorian ideas

1444
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:17,079
of who Mary is. Right, she's Thestoria says, she's Christodicos,

1445
01:39:17,199 --> 01:39:18,039
not theoticas.

1446
01:39:19,279 --> 01:39:23,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, like icons are signify of the incarnational principle,

1447
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:28,720
and the Theotokos is you know, the ultimate incarnational principle.

1448
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, she is the new arc of the Covenant, exactly.

1449
01:39:31,319 --> 01:39:31,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1450
01:39:32,199 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 1: And so if you don't believe in that incarnational principle,

1451
01:39:34,479 --> 01:39:36,119
you're not going to believe in theosis. You're not going

1452
01:39:36,199 --> 01:39:40,199
to believe that that individual humans can become living arcs

1453
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:41,239
of the Covenant.

1454
01:39:43,079 --> 01:39:43,760
Speaker 5: Is going to be messed up.

1455
01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:45,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, the Christology is going to be all screwed up.

1456
01:39:47,399 --> 01:39:49,680
All right, I don't see any more super chats. Thank

1457
01:39:49,720 --> 01:39:51,720
you guys. That was a lot of fun. Be sure

1458
01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:54,840
and follow Snack on his He has a pretty hype Twitter.

1459
01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:58,359
He's always rolling up some people. He's fun to follow

1460
01:39:58,520 --> 01:40:01,479
on Twitter. He's got an Instagram as well, And if

1461
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:04,319
you want to get into our discord or his discord,

1462
01:40:04,439 --> 01:40:07,399
you can follow that as well. In the links. You

1463
01:40:07,439 --> 01:40:10,920
can also join my website anything you want to promote Snack.

1464
01:40:12,119 --> 01:40:13,920
Speaker 5: No, it's mostly in French. We're going to start some

1465
01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:18,000
new things. So the discord is mostly in French, but

1466
01:40:18,159 --> 01:40:22,840
we've got like good archives, a good library, and we're

1467
01:40:22,880 --> 01:40:28,720
going to start to do some fundraising soon for monasteries

1468
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:31,880
for skitties that are being set up in France. So

1469
01:40:32,319 --> 01:40:36,399
we're gonna keep your passion on that. But yeah, it's growing. Actually,

1470
01:40:36,439 --> 01:40:42,000
it's now the biggest Christian server in France because the

1471
01:40:42,159 --> 01:40:46,600
Treads and the and the Concilia just canceled one another.

1472
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:50,039
So yeah, right now it's the biggest Christian serve in France.

1473
01:40:50,159 --> 01:40:53,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we possess the biggest Orthodox Christian server snacks

1474
01:40:53,399 --> 01:40:54,920
in there as well, So he's got the biggest French

1475
01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:57,880
Orthodox server. So you said the biggest Christian or biggest

1476
01:40:57,920 --> 01:41:02,000
French Christian Christian Oh wow, okay, so so yeah, a

1477
01:41:02,079 --> 01:41:06,640
lot of converts being made through his and by God's grace,

1478
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:10,039
a lot of converts in ours as well. So if

1479
01:41:10,119 --> 01:41:13,520
you want to join the discord, just follow my Twitter

1480
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:18,359
and periodically I will post invites for debate or whatever

1481
01:41:18,439 --> 01:41:21,239
people want to do to come to the Twitter, I

1482
01:41:21,319 --> 01:41:22,439
mean to to the discord.

1483
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:25,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's on my Twitter bio.

1484
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:28,600
Speaker 1: Okay, awesome, all right, everybody, have a good night