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Speaker 1: It's Jay Dier, Jason Nelson's, Jay Iyer's Day, smell, Jade

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ires Day's analysis, It's Jay diars Day's analysis. It's Jay

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diars Day's analysis.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, you're listening to Jay's analysis. We are here. Yeah.

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You can always separate the boomers from the younger tuners

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by whether they know what synth wave and retro wave are.

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Boomers are like this sound's eighties and everyone else is

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in on the joke. If you're not in on any jokes,

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you're a boomer. It's just a joke. By the way,

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boomer posting is a joke. Please don't be offended. A

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lot of people have gotten offended, not a lot handful

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of people have gotten offended over boomer posting, boomer jokes.

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It's just satire. It's not intended to divide the generations.

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As one commenter was saying that I'm here, Yeah, my

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whole ethos, I'm here to divide the generations. Now, we're

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here to talk about real stuff today. And I decided

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it would be it would make more sense to kind

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of split up talks on the basis of topics. I

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don't know, we'll try that out for a little while.

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But you know, if you're talking about movie streams and

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then people are asking about divine simplicity, you know what

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I mean, it doesn't make any sense. So although in

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a weird way, I guess you could argue about films

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and absolute Doen simplicity.

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Speaker 3: That would be a long.

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Speaker 2: Stretch of an argument, but it would be interesting anyway.

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I mean, if you can apply metaphysics to economics, which

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I did and I think successfully in an article which

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you should check out, Metaphysical Implications of Nominalist Economics, one

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of the classic Jaysonnalysis pieces which I just shared I

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think today or yesterday. If you have not read that,

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please read that. Read that because it is a substantial

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criticism of libertarianism and why we would say libertarianism is

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problematic here at jays Analysis. And that was written a

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while back, so let me.

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Speaker 3: Pull that up for you. Yeah, I went through.

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Speaker 2: The archives again, still fixing old essays in the jays

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Nealysis archives here it is, so.

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Speaker 3: I tried to repair.

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Speaker 2: I repaired about twenty or thirty of the old essays

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last night, which needed to be done. So a lot

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of that is and a lot of people are new

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to Jay's nelsis so they've not read the classics, you know,

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the essays that have been there for five ten years.

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This is one of them, which I wrote in I

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think twenty fifteen, and we're not gonna be talking about

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really libertarian economic theory. But the reason I'm saying you

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should read this is number one because I fixed it,

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because when I transferred everything to the new website, all

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the links were broken and all the images were destroyed, and.

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Speaker 3: The essays got lost.

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Speaker 2: Not half thirty percent been lost. So I'm still repairing

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all these because I wrote hundreds and hundreds of essays

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over the last decade. So this one is a critique

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of how libertarian economic theory is essentially bound up with

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a specific metaphysical view out of the Enlightenment, and hardly

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anybody knows that. But it's the same idea of whig

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economics and and atomism that you probably heard E. Michael

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Jones critique, which I came to my conclusions irrespective independent

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of E. Michael Jones. So Michael Jones, of course, isn't

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the first person's critique atomistic human beings as numerical interchangeable

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units economic theory anyway, So we're going to talk about Yeah,

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we're gonna talk about numbers.

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Speaker 4: Prove God.

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Speaker 2: We got a lot of these old essays again that

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we need to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: We're going to do a lot of this because of

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questions that come in. So people ask the same questions

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over and over, and usually it gets to the point

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where I realized, oh, this would actually make a good

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talk because twenty different people have asked the same question,

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how do you make sense of.

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Speaker 3: Blah blah blah?

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Speaker 2: What about blah blah blah? And so let's see what

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I've got in my notes here. Now, somebody asked a

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question before the streams started, and I've already forgotten what

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but what the question was something to do with Frankish thesis.

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I've already forgotten what it was, right, So yeah. Anominalism

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is basically the view that there are no existing categories

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or essences and things. When you speak about whiteness, when

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you speak about human nature, when you speak about categories

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like that, you're not describing real existing things in the world.

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You're just describing something from human perspective, human vantage point.

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There's no universals, right, That's what the whole debates centered on.

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In the Middle Ages when this came about. If you

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read William of Backham arguing against the realists, and this

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is essentially just a rehash of the old Western dialectical

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debate of one in many universals, in particulars Aristotle and Plato.

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In a way. Now, Aristotle believed in the universals, but

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he didn't believe in a separate transcendental realm of forms.

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Aristotle identified the universals with the objects themselves. Somehow, universals

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are in the objects in Aristotelianism. So when we if

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we talk about nominalism, what we're talking about is the

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idea that things don't have essences categories, like again, human nature,

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that's not a real thing that an object has. So

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nominalism is the predecessor to empiricism, the idea that all

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we know is immediate sense data. All right, So nominalism

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quite literally directly leads to empiricism. If you heard the

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debate with white Pill Proll, that's exactly what we talked about.

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And anybody who's studied philosophy will learn this. And this

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is kind of like basic what history of Western philosophy,

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It's not even debatable, and it leads to empiricism, not evempiricism, precisely,

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because again it starts with the assumption that we don't

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know anything about what we're talking about in terms of

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the external world. We don't know that human nature is

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something that humans actually possess across the board, because our

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experi experience is limited. So you can only investigate a

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limited number of human beings, and when you investigate them,

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you're only investigating this object, this object, this object, this object.

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That you are in a human creative capacity, calling a

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class of things, calling a species, calling a universal category,

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but it's not something that.

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Speaker 3: The objects actually possess.

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Speaker 2: Right, So this is one of the beginning breakdowns of

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Western philosophy, is specifically with nominalism. Now we have to

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be careful here because that does not mean that, somehow,

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as a result of nominalism breaking down categories or universals,

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that Plato was true and Platonism and realists are all correct.

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Speaker 3: They are not.

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Speaker 2: This is called dialectics in Western philosophy. The whole history

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of all of it can be encapsulated in dialectics, from

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the ancient Greeks and the Ionian philosophers and the pre

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Socratics all the way up through Hegel to today, right,

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marks dialectics, all of it, all of it is encompassed

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under the presubposition of dialectical metaphysics, dialectical epistemology, dialectics now.

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Speaker 3: Dialectics as a method of.

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Speaker 2: Asking question and answer point counterpoint is fine, the elyinctic method.

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That's different from assuming dialectics is a real metaphysical operation

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going on in time and space and history. Okay, that's

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like Hegel, Plato, Aristotle.

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Speaker 4: Et cetera.

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Speaker 2: They all believed in dialectics in some form or fashion, right,

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So the two different things here. So a lot of

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times people say, well, you're being if you're doing Q

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and a point counterpoint, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with

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That's just discourse. That's just socratic method discourse.

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Speaker 3: But that's different from.

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Speaker 2: When you make a metaphysical claim about there being nothing

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but dialectics within history, right, like dialectical materialism of Marx. Okay,

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that's one example of this, or the Hegelian process philosophy

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of everything being thesis, antithesis, and synthesis working towards an

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omega point. Okay, that's Hegelian version of dialectics. Western scholastic

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theology is based on dialectics. Protestant theology is based on dialectics,

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nature versus grace, grace versus the will of man, and

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Luther or Calvin right. Dialectics is everywhere in the debates

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of the Church fathers, for the first many, for the

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for several councils, many centuries. We're dealing with dialectics. So

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let's give one example of this, because this is a

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question that has come up many times. I get emails

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over this, whoa dude, huge? And this is one of

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the starting points that we want to hammer as really

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what's distinctive of Orthodox theology as opposed to everybody else. Okay,

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if I can make this small enough, damn thing was huge?

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Now this is from the book God History and Dialectic

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Volume one by doctor Farrell. This was written when Farrell

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was still Orthodox, so I am not advocating the present

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day Gnostic views of doctor Farrell, but this book is

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pretty solid, as well as his book on Same Maximus.

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So what we want to point out here is that

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when we talk about the One and this is going

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to be the starting point again for all of our

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philosophy as well as our theology. Right, So we're going

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to begin by avoiding dialectics. We're going to begin by

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talking about who God is. The fear of the Lord

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is the beginning of wisdom, as Proverbs says, right Paul says,

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God has made foolish the wisdom of this world. So

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we're not going to begin with the assumption that autonomous

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human reasoning is sufficient to explain the world, to understand

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the world, to get to the to the meanings of things.

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The logoy. We don't believe that it is. And we're

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going to start with this with this key quote here.

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Contrasting Jerusalem with Athens is a good way to put this,

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because Athens is going to be predicated on the assumption

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of human autonomy, atheism, mysticism, et cetera, et cetera, and

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Jerusalem is going to be predicated on the assumption of revelation.

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Right now, the fact that we believe in the starting

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point being revelation does not mean that we exclude human

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reasoning or philosophy. Philosophy is not evil, it's not bad.

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In many of the church others promoted classical education, classical pedagogy.

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Saint Basil talks about it, Saint Phosias talks about it,

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there's nothing wrong with education.

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Speaker 3: The problem is that tools.

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Speaker 2: Man is a master at making the tools that he

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has into idols. So just as reason and logic can

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become idols as if they operated magically and mystically on

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their own, in the same way philosophy can, logic can right,

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the scientific method, a tool for understanding the natural world,

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can become an idol where man thinks that it gives

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him a grand narrative explanation of everything. Right with the

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modern new atheists and scientism and so forth, So we

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have a different starting point from all of those, And

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that's because to be consistent within our system of belief,

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we have to have a different starting point. We can't

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start with the presubpositions of unbelief and later down the

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road tack on the possible probable existence of God. To

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do that is to be unfaithful from the outset to

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one's worldview. Right because, in other words, in our theology,

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does God say, does God tell us in revelation? In

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tradition that He might exist? And that if you do

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a bunch of philosophical wrangling and reasoning that at the

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end of the day you might be able to tackle

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on the probable existence of a generic.

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Speaker 3: Deity, No, not at all.

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Speaker 2: Does anybody do any of the apostles do that? No

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they don't. Does Paul do that in Act seventeen, No

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he does not. He preaches the resurrection. What does he

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use five classical arguments of Aristotle when he preaches to

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the Greeks in Acts seventeen?

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Speaker 3: No he does not.

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Speaker 2: He preaches the resurrection, and he says that your Greek

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religion is foolishness.

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Speaker 3: And yes he does.

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Speaker 2: Quote a couple Greek poets, right, I think artists and

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someone else. But so what, Plenty of church fathers can

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quote Greeks to illustrate things and to make points and

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to look at insights.

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Speaker 3: I've quoted Plato. That's fine.

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Speaker 2: The point is not about quote, since the point is

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what do the words mean? And what is the system

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that we believe in? What is our worldview? And are

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we being faithful to it? So you're going to see

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here that this paragraph is going to illustrate the separation

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not only between Orthodox theology and other religions. We're going

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to see that it illustrates the point of departure for

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Roman Catholicism and the so called Christian sects because every

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Christian sect in the West believes in absolute divine simplicity.

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They do not believe in the essence energy distinction. They

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do not believe in theosis by divine energies, and they

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believe in the filioquay, which is a result of the

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essence energy distinction denial. I feel o quay is a

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direct result of absolute divine simplicity. It introduces dialectics and

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essentialism into the Godhead. So we're going to see that

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our theology is truly speaking unique. There is no theological

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tradition that believes what we do. And when we go

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down the line looking at all the distinctives of our views,

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such as say creation ex nilo, right, that's an integral

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part of our worldview again taught in the Creed. Right,

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I believe in God the Father, a money maker of

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heaven and earth. That is unique. That means that the

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world is not eternal. The world is not something forever existing,

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and we're caught in the Nietzsche eternal return, right, We're

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not caught in.

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Speaker 3: The nihilism of fatalism.

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Speaker 2: And that because creation has a beginning point and an endpoint.

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Think about the notion of creation itself. Matter in the

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world out there exists for man. In our view, we

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have an anthroposcentric view, because man is the steward of

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creation under God. That is different from a anatemate imminentistic view,

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where man is a kind of abortative product of natural

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forces right deistic evolution, supposedly random chaotic evolution. Man is

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meaningless in that universe other than the so called meaning

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he invents for himself, which leads directly to nihilism. So,

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in other words, to go back to the point about nominalism,

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we're going to see that nominalism really is just a

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late phase medieval corruption of dialectical problems that were already

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present in the history of Western philosophy. That does not

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mean that for our Eastern philosophy is good. We're not.

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We're not going with any human devised philosophy. They're all faulty,

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they're all heretical in the long scheme of things in

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a roundabout way. Why because they all begin with deviations

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on their starting point. So let's talk about that starting

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point and we'll get to nominalism later. I'll fill this

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out more and we'll talk about how it's just really

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a rehash of old debates between platonism and a more

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naturalistic approach which denies anything transcendent. This is where we get,

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of course, on modern atheists, who all believe in not

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even empiricism, psychologism, scientism, you know, everything, basically self destructive

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of knowledge and logic, which they don't even understand. In

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every debate that you have with them illustrates that perfectly.

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So and we're going to talk to We're gonna talk

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about how numbers prove God. We're going to address the

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question which has come up many times.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Jay, So.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you make a good argument against an atheistic materialist.

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Maybe there's some transcendental argument for the validity, use, and

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existence of logical entities outside of the human mind. But

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how do you get to God from that? That doesn't

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prove God, dummy, there's no God there. It's just maybe

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impersonal abstract forces. All right, Well, we're gonna get to that.

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So we're gonna answer all these questions. We're gonna talk

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about some of the good critiques of the philosophy of evolution,

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which I've recommended in the past, but I think we've

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got so many new listeners since stuff I recommend like

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two years ago, nobody's even heard of it now, and

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you know, the audience is like ten times bigger than

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it was two years ago. So so we're gonna talk

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about a lot of these points and principles today, going

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to talk about how a bunch of different transcendentals essentially

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can be bagged together in one giant transcendental argument, which

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necessitates God. So we're going to go from abstraction to

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higher level abstraction to highest level abstraction. By the way,

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that doesn't mean God is pure abstraction. The unique aspect

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of what we're going to talk about here is that

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most of the metaphysically minded religions of the world Perennialism, traditionalism,

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blah blah blah blah blah, Platonism, ancient.

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Speaker 3: Vedic religions, or whatever they're.

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Speaker 2: Absolute that they abstract up to is impersonal. The unique

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aspect of the Christian worldview again unique in many ways,

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like creation x nilo is unique. The other world religions

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do not teach that Genesis teaches that. All the Orthodox

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tradition church fathers all teach that by the way the

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trollon is sino to condemns theistic evolution.

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Speaker 3: By the way you are under canonical.

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Speaker 2: Ban if you believe that death was a natural result

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of I'm speaking to Orthodox here. If you believe that

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death is a natural process and not the result of

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Adam sin, you're actually under the canonical ban of the

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Trollin Synod, which is later affirmed by Ecumenical Sonod. Now

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let's see, so the beginning point here. This is so crucial,

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and if we understand this, the rest of our theology

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will flow consistently. We will be in harmony with everything

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that the seven to eight Ecumenical Councils teach, with everything

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that the medieval Orthodox councils teach. We will be in

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harmony with the Sonoticon of Orthodoxy, which is read at

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the Triumph of Orthodoxy liturgy. We will understand that we

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cannot merge our system with Roman Catholicism, which is becoming

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so popular amongst the Apostate, phony Orthodox, the Ecumenists, and

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we will see that we have the answer, We actually

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have the answer to these problems. So he says St. Basil,

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Of course, Cappadocian Church Father. I've read I think almost

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all Basil's writings, most of them at least is crucial

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for uh, you know, the history of the doctrine of

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the Trinity. You know, Saint Basil really solidified any remaining

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doubts about aspects of the triad.

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Speaker 3: So Basil's works on the Holy.

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Speaker 2: Spirit, Basil against Eunomius. Uh, these are all, you know,

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crucial aspects of Saint Basil. But what we'll see is

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in the Patristic period, a lot of the debate was

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still raging about the relationship between the revelation that's of

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God in scripture and the religious heritage of Hellenism, the

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religio philosophical heritage of Helenism. Okay, so we're not talking

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about the Greek language here. This is a mistake that

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some people make. They confuse every aspect of Hellenic culture

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with the philosophical and religious presubsisitions of Hellenism. Say two

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different things. Right, So the Bible being translated into the

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septuagen is a positive aspect of Hellenic culture. The Old

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Testament I'm speaking here, right, that's not an evil Hellenic

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thing that we need to oppose.

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Speaker 3: The idea that the one right God, the.

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Speaker 2: One the Monad, is an impersonal force is Hellenism that

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we need to oppose. The idea that God is in

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dialectical tension. This one is in dialectical tension with the

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rest of the created order or the many blah blah blah.

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That is Hellenism that we need to oppose. The idea

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that in Christ there is one will, because if he

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had two wills, they would be in dialectical tension is

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the teaching of the Monolthlites, and that's a dialectical Hellenism

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that we need to oppose. The idea that all predicates

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of God are absolutely identified with an absolutely simple essence

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is the teaching of Origin and the teaching of Eunomius,

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and the teaching of all the absolute divine simplicity adherents,

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and that is a Hellenism that we need to oppose.

355
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So you're going to notice that what Plotinus says here

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that Saint Basil is going to contrast his view with

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is going to set the tone for why we don't

358
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believe in the generic Greek theism of the Pagans and

359
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the philosophers, and why our view is perfectly in harmony

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with Moses. When Moses says in Exodus three fourteen, I

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am that I am a yeah as sure aa.

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Speaker 3: That is not a.

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Speaker 2: Statement about God being the equivalent to the Greek monad.

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In fact, it is a rejection of the Greek view.

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Speaker 3: Now it is true.

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Speaker 2: This is where it gets confusing, because when a philosopher,

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for example, says, all things have to be in some

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way related to the one, a great, universal, absolute, and

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in some way encompasses and links all things. We as

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an Orthodox could look at that and say, you are correct, sir,

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but you don't know the one that you are talking

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you're speaking of because you think that that one is

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an unknowable, impersonal force. This is why in Acts seventeen,

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when Paul goes to the Areopagus and talks to all

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the Greeks, and he says that there's a statue for

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the unknown God, just in case. The Greeks had all

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these statues to all the gods, and they put one

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up to the unknown God, just in case they forgot one.

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Quite literally, Paul says, that's the true one, the unknown one.

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He says, because you don't believe that he is a

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single creator God, that you can have a relationship with

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the Covenental personal God. So all Greek philosophy, unfortunately, for

383
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all of its insights, it still begins with the erroneous

384
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presupposition or starting point that all reality can be encapsulated

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under impersonal absolutes or some force, some number, right, some principle.

386
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So you get in the presocratics, the idea of Heraclitis

387
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or an Aximander, or these different guys. Oh, everything is permanence,

388
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everything is fire, everything is flux, everything is water. So

389
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they're searching for a unifying absolute principle, unifying metaphysical principle,

390
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a concrete absolute. These are different terms and history philosophy

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that are just intended to signify what these Greeks were

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looking for. Now the same idea, right is, we don't

393
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have a problem talking about the one, but the distinction

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is very is very crucial here that we begin by

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saying that our one is not a.

396
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Speaker 3: He's not a number. He's the Father.

397
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Speaker 2: We don't begin by saying that there's one essence of

398
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God and that's the one true God. We say the

399
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Father is the one true God who has one essence. Right,

400
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,279
So let's read this basil in addition to employing the

401
00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:22,559
term simplicity. Right, So we absolutely affirm, as do all

402
00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:25,960
the church fathers, that God is simple, He's not composed

403
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,359
of parts. He also uses the term the one in

404
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,839
reference to God. Correct, there is only one God, but

405
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,200
here he does in a unique sense that confounds any

406
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,039
attempt at a neoplatonic analysis. In the Greek, the one

407
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,559
is in Platonius's system, referred to in the Neuter to on,

408
00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:47,319
as evidenced by his pronoun it.

409
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Speaker 3: Right. Do you see this?

410
00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: In Platonis's system, God is an it.

411
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Speaker 3: It's a thing.

412
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Speaker 2: It's a thing like everything else out in the world,

413
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except it's the highest level thing. It's at the top

414
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of the thing chain of being. For Platonis, the one

415
00:31:04,079 --> 00:31:11,559
is also that which exists. That, it's a that, this

416
00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:14,359
is why words matter by that, or it's just simply being.

417
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 3: Again, in the Neutra hold on.

418
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Speaker 2: But for Saint Basil, God is never referred to, but

419
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:28,279
in the masculine the one is for him referred to

420
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as him. Likewise, the one is he who exists hou On.

421
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This seemingly minor point will assume crucial significance when we

422
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,519
turn to the application of dogma in the art of

423
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,200
iconography for the First and Second Europes, and even more

424
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significant when we discover how the Second Europe he's speaking

425
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of Frankish papal Europe as opposed to the first thousand

426
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,200
years of the Church, through a process of application of

427
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,160
the gnostic technique of assigning new meanings to old terms,

428
00:31:57,319 --> 00:31:59,720
and will come under the It will come to understand

429
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,400
the test tra grammaton of Exodus. I am who I am,

430
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:04,480
not in the personal sense of Saint Basil, but in

431
00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:07,920
the abstract and personal essentialism of Latinus. Now, if you

432
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,160
doubt that, you need to look no further than Ettiangilson's

433
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:16,759
book on Tomism. The famous tomis Etiangio Soon, and when

434
00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:21,079
he quotes Exodus there he says that this means I.

435
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Speaker 3: Am subsistent being.

436
00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:26,119
Speaker 2: Now, at times some of the church fathers do say

437
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that God is supreme being. There's nothing inherently wrong with

438
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,680
that phrase or that term, But the problem is the

439
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,720
baggage and connotations that come along with that term. Because

440
00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:41,920
for us in the orthodoxeology, even when we say of

441
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,920
God that he possesses existence or that he possesses oneness

442
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,359
in Orthodox theology is maybe surprising as it may sound

443
00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:52,880
if you're new to this, those are also energies.

444
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Speaker 3: Even when we speak.

445
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Speaker 2: Of the oneness of God, they are revealed to us energetically.

446
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We do not know what it is in God to

447
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,960
be oneness. We do not know what the oneness of

448
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,359
God is, because it is a oneness of nature, and

449
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the nature of God is absolutely unknowable, because it is

450
00:33:11,079 --> 00:33:15,519
absolutely unlike anything in the world. But we do know

451
00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:17,839
God in terms of what he reveals to us, which

452
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,799
is his personal energies. So we have to also avoid

453
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the mistake of assuming that the divine energies are somehow

454
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impersonal forces.

455
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Speaker 3: They are not.

456
00:33:26,119 --> 00:33:32,519
Speaker 2: They're not new age zap beams that come down from

457
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,559
on high. No, they are in hypostatized, which means just

458
00:33:36,599 --> 00:33:40,480
simply that they are personal. All of the manifestations of

459
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,079
God's attributes to us, or his energies, or his works

460
00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:46,720
or his operations are to us completely and fully personal.

461
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,480
So when we speak of the omniscience of God, or

462
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:50,880
when we speak of the love of God, and when

463
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,880
we speak of the being of God, those are all

464
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,559
energetic manifestations or revelations of His being that.

465
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Speaker 3: We are called to participate.

466
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Speaker 2: That's what grace is, is the participation in those powers

467
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,239
and works of God. In fact, Paul makes us very

468
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,039
clear in Corinthians when he talks about the spiritual gifts.

469
00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:16,039
That's specifically where he uses inner Gaia now uses it

470
00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:18,239
many times, but he says that the gifts of the spirit,

471
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,599
the energies of the Spirit, are distributed in the body

472
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,000
of the Church, that is, the works of the Holy

473
00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:28,599
Spirit that we participate in. You do not become or

474
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,400
partake of the person of the Holy Spirit. Even the

475
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,639
Roman Catholics eventually condemned this position because of their absolute dims, simplicity,

476
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,400
and their confusion over many centuries as to what it

477
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,239
means to receive grace and what it means to participate

478
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,519
in the life of God. They had all manner of

479
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:48,280
disputes and debates about what exactly that meant. So at

480
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,159
the time of Trent and after they eventually condemned the

481
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,880
idea that what you get in grace is the person

482
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,559
of the Holy Spirit, because if you truly participate in God,

483
00:34:58,079 --> 00:34:59,800
then you would be melding with the person of the

484
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,000
whole Spirit. So that's why they had to continue to

485
00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:06,559
come up with the confused notion of created grace, that

486
00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:09,480
what you're participating in is just another created form. But

487
00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:13,159
if we're just participating in another creative form, then the

488
00:35:13,199 --> 00:35:18,320
incarnation and deification was not necessary, right Christ's incarnation and

489
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,199
his deification of his human nature, which Ephicis talks about.

490
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,840
Constantineble One talks about the two Ecumenical councils that discuss

491
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,119
Christ taking on human nature and deifying it in his

492
00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:33,159
incarnation and resurrection. None of that was necessary if all

493
00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:36,440
we needed was just another created form. Again, this is

494
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,119
the classic Orthodox rejoinder to created grace. And you would

495
00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:42,280
only believe in created grace if you believe in absolute

496
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,960
divine simplicity. So what you're going to see then, The

497
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,719
point here is that all these doctrines are linked. Every

498
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:54,719
Roman Catholic doctrine on every major issue is conditioned by

499
00:35:55,079 --> 00:36:02,800
absolute divine simplicity. Why well, absolute divine simplicity necessitates some

500
00:36:03,199 --> 00:36:07,559
other thing coming in between God and this world right,

501
00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:11,599
or there's problems in the incarnation in that view. So

502
00:36:11,679 --> 00:36:15,079
what's what's communicated to Christ humanity when he assumed it.

503
00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:19,840
If it's a divine energy, which Saint John Aamascus on

504
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,760
the six Secum Medical Council says it was, then that

505
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:29,639
energy can't be created because it's an uncreated energy. And

506
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,960
all those Fathers teach that, those councils teach.

507
00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 3: That point being is that that.

508
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 2: If you think about Christ, you have to understand that

509
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,880
he is a single divine person. Okay, He's not an

510
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:44,880
addition formula.

511
00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:45,199
Speaker 4: Right.

512
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: This is how Roman Catholics eventually ended up reading the

513
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:50,360
Chalcedonian creed.

514
00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 4: Right.

515
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 2: They ended up saying that it means that who is Jesus,

516
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,039
He's human nature plus divine nature equals Jesus. No, Jesus

517
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:02,280
is not an addition for himla, because he was forever

518
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:08,440
a divine person and he assumed an impersonal human nature.

519
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,320
This is what Ephesis teaches, is what Saint Cyril teaches,

520
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:11,880
and this is.

521
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 3: What the sixth Council reaffirmed.

522
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 2: So that means that you have to read Chalcidon in

523
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,000
a Kirillian Cyrillian neo Cyrillian.

524
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:24,199
Speaker 3: Way, which is what Orthodoxy does.

525
00:37:26,199 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: This is why, by the way, after the Fifth Council

526
00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:33,719
and six well after the fourth Council Chalcidon, you had

527
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:41,440
debates over monothelitism and monargism, the idea that there's one

528
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:47,199
will and one energy in Christ, or monophysitism. Right, So

529
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,800
all of those systems conceived of him as a basically

530
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,960
an addition formula. It's some sort of fused new being.

531
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,800
But he's not he retains his humanity in its proper

532
00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:00,719
mode and form at all times.

533
00:38:01,159 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 3: He never loses his.

534
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,679
Speaker 2: Humanity, full humanity, but it is an impersonal human nature.

535
00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:11,960
His humanity does not possess its own hypostasis. That is

536
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,639
the teaching of Nestorias. Thestorius taught that there were two Jesuses,

537
00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:19,599
a human guy named Jesus of Nazareth and the son

538
00:38:19,639 --> 00:38:22,800
of God who came upon this human god, Jesus of Nazareth.

539
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,800
Most of the world believes Nestorianism. When they talk about Jesus,

540
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,239
they think, oh, that was that cool guy prophet who

541
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,159
like you know, became God or whatever, and it was

542
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:37,440
like apotheosis. No no, no, no. No. Orthodox teaching, teaching of all

543
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,280
the church fathers who are Orthodox for the first millennium

544
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,320
is that Jesus is an eternal person and he assumed

545
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,519
human nature, which is impersonal. He has all the faculties

546
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,239
of a human but the only person, the sole subject

547
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,320
that Saint Cyril used to say, of all the actions

548
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:03,039
of Christ is the Logos, the eternal Logos, Son of God.

549
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,519
And this is why our theology is completely different from

550
00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:12,440
all the Protestant theologies, which are essentially an astorian This

551
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:16,519
is why, for example, Calvinists and the Classical Reformation tradition

552
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,320
teaches that Jesus was damned.

553
00:39:19,039 --> 00:39:20,199
Speaker 3: Right, this is blasphemous.

554
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 2: Not only is it blasphemous, it requires you to either

555
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,639
be an historian and believe that there were two people

556
00:39:24,639 --> 00:39:28,480
in Christ, a human person who could be damned, or

557
00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:31,239
you have to believe that the Father damned the eternal Son,

558
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,000
which splits and rends the Trinity, which is preposterous. So

559
00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:38,440
God the Father is not punishing God the Son. And

560
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,719
that's the chief blasphemy of all the traditional reformers. And

561
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,840
in order to make sense of that, they had to

562
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,920
go in either two routes. They either had to go

563
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,119
with arianism or they had to go with some kind

564
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:52,440
of Nestorianism. And really Astorianism is just another version of arianism.

565
00:39:52,519 --> 00:39:56,960
So the point of all that was just to say

566
00:39:57,159 --> 00:40:01,360
that what is so insightful about God history and dialectic

567
00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:07,079
is his correct thesis that all of the councils and

568
00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:12,079
their apologetic debates from the time of Marcion. Again, Marcianism

569
00:40:12,119 --> 00:40:16,559
is predicated on the same assumptions here Greek Hellenic gnostic

570
00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:19,920
views all the way up through to the Seventh and

571
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,599
Eighth Council which dealt with icons, and then later with

572
00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:25,360
the Philioquay and the Eighth Council for the East. You

573
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,000
have the same battle of what Basil is talking about here,

574
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:33,760
the same battle of the idea of the continuity of

575
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:42,239
our God with the revelation to Moses, the life of Moses. Right,

576
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,039
here's what Saint Gregory and Nissa Life of Moses. Right,

577
00:40:49,079 --> 00:40:59,840
we believe that our theology is completely in continuity with

578
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,880
the Revelation all the way back to Moses. How else

579
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,880
could San gregoressa riot Life of Moses if we didn't

580
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,559
believe that Moses is the model for seeing the face

581
00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:18,079
of God as we read in Exodus. So again, what

582
00:41:18,119 --> 00:41:21,440
you're going to see when you die, and many of

583
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,239
you will not probably, but if you do go into

584
00:41:26,119 --> 00:41:28,519
years and years of study of the early Church fathers.

585
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,840
I put about thirteen or fourteen years into it, what

586
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,440
you'll start to notice is that the battles of the

587
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:40,039
councils and the Orthodox Fathers against the heretics is consistently

588
00:41:40,119 --> 00:41:48,760
one of battling philosophic presubsitions and assumptions out of Hellenism. Now,

589
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,920
there were some other heresies like the Judaizers, and yes,

590
00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:56,320
those views get condemned, but that was a small minority.

591
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,559
The world had been prepped right through the thought of

592
00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:06,719
the Greeks and the Romans, and the Judaizing error was

593
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,239
basically dealt with in the first century, and then there

594
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,519
were some hangers on in the second third century. And yes,

595
00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:13,960
in a way, some of the Church fathers do say

596
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,440
that Marcion, well, Marcian is not a Judaizer because he

597
00:42:18,519 --> 00:42:20,679
specifically rejects the Old Testament. But some of the other

598
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:27,639
gnostics you could maybe link to Judaizing because they wanted

599
00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:35,519
to question the divinity of Christ basically. So, but here's

600
00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:38,840
the key here is that to understand all, whether you're

601
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,559
a Judaizer, or whether you would be one of the

602
00:42:41,599 --> 00:42:45,199
eventual Kabbalistic Talmutic proponents.

603
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 3: Or whether you are one of the Greeks, or.

604
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:51,559
Speaker 2: Yet whether you're one of the early Church heretics like

605
00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:57,920
Marcion or the Dulcatists or the Adoptionists, or you're one

606
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,800
of the Nestorians or one of the Monophysites of the Monothelites,

607
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,079
you all have a problem with dialectics. And this is

608
00:43:05,119 --> 00:43:08,199
the pattern that is there in all of them. Now,

609
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:09,840
where do we see this first. We see it first

610
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:15,199
when Origin specifically makes an argument about who God the

611
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,679
Father is, and he's trying to argue with Celsus the Platonists,

612
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,400
and he essentially says, and this is called the Origins problematic,

613
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,440
he essentially says that anything that we say about God

614
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,320
is absolutely identical to the super essential essence of God.

615
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,400
And the essence of God is so simple that everything

616
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,039
in it kind of equalizes out, it all blends into

617
00:43:42,039 --> 00:43:43,800
the same thing. So if we call God the Father,

618
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,960
that's absolutely identical.

619
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 3: To the divine essence. If we call God just.

620
00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 2: That's also absolutely identical to the divine essence. Now, the

621
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,719
problem with this is that if we do that, then

622
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:02,480
there's no difference between God being just and God being

623
00:44:02,639 --> 00:44:07,039
Father or God being eternal. So, in other words, fatherhood

624
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:10,119
is absolutely the same thing as eternality, is absolutely the

625
00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:12,960
same thing as any other thing that you say about God.

626
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,199
And this reduced this to absurdity, and it's rejected by

627
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,239
the Church fathers. This is why we don't believe in

628
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:25,280
absolute divine simplicity. This is why Origin came to believe

629
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,400
in the eternality of the world. Now, how do you

630
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,320
think he might have gotten to that conclusion. Well, let's

631
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,920
think about it. Origin reasoned against again platonists. He said, look,

632
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,639
I can agree with you, all right, I'll take the bait.

633
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,199
I'll say, yes, God the Father is the same thing

634
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,639
as eternality. It's also the same thing as providence. So

635
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,440
if providence and being eternal and being a father are

636
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,079
all equated with the divine essence, then God had to

637
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:58,800
eternally have a creation to be father over. I mean

638
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,119
that seems to logically follow, doesn't it. Well, in the

639
00:45:01,119 --> 00:45:04,360
assumptions of absolute done simplicity, it follows. And of course,

640
00:45:06,639 --> 00:45:11,840
because Origin was very influenced by Platonism, he also reasoned

641
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:17,599
that everything that exists in Platonic fashion was created as

642
00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:21,639
a reflection, a necessary reflection of what was in this

643
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,519
divine essence. Right, all the forms, all the ideas, the

644
00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:28,400
exemplars of things are also in this divine essence.

645
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,559
Speaker 3: They're also synonymous.

646
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 2: With the eternality of God, the fatherhood of God.

647
00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 3: So they had to exist.

648
00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 2: So you see, creation is not a free action in

649
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:42,199
this view. Creation is a necessary entailment. It's a necessary product.

650
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,320
It's an emanation. As the Platonist would say, from God,

651
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,519
because it wasn't an act of will, it was a

652
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:55,599
necessary instantiation and eternal reflection of what was always in

653
00:45:55,639 --> 00:45:59,679
the divine essence. Right, So whatever happens within history, by

654
00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:02,679
the way, seems to lead to determinism. So Origin has

655
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,719
this elaborate system where he tries to get around some

656
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,639
of these problems and argue for free will and all

657
00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:09,239
this stuff. And because he thought of good and evil

658
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,360
in dialectical fashion, he reasoned that, well, since we always

659
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,079
retain free will, and free will is defined by the

660
00:46:16,199 --> 00:46:19,039
choice of good or evil, it therefore follows that you

661
00:46:19,079 --> 00:46:22,039
can always fall in the eternal state, you can fall again,

662
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:25,119
and Christ can become incarnate again and restore everybody again.

663
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,239
So it's an absurd gnostic system. This is why organism

664
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,559
is condemned. It's not just condemned because of a pocket

665
00:46:31,559 --> 00:46:35,239
gastasis and his view of the pocket statius and universalism.

666
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: That's not the only reason. He's condemned for multiple.

667
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 2: Reasons, and it's all.

668
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:42,599
Speaker 3: The reasons I'm telling you right now.

669
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: But you don't know that, if you haven't really delved

670
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,320
into this, and if you don't know what the Originist

671
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:57,599
problem is. So so again, when we consider that Origin's

672
00:46:57,639 --> 00:47:02,760
view of creation is that it's a necessary emanation in

673
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,679
the platonic sense, it's not.

674
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,199
Speaker 3: An act of God's free will.

675
00:47:07,199 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 2: And when we consider that creation is a reflection of

676
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,840
all the forms upon which the creative forms are based, right,

677
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,119
it's just straight Platonism here. Then we see also that

678
00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:20,400
it was not a free, freely created thing. And we

679
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,039
see that creation becomes eternal because if God is father,

680
00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:26,280
and if he's provident, and if he's eternal, and if

681
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,760
all those things are synonymous, then he had to eternally

682
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,280
be a father over provident, eternal creation. Now this is

683
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,559
all stupid, why because of the assumption of absolute muntiplicity.

684
00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:38,559
Speaker 3: That's why.

685
00:47:39,159 --> 00:47:40,039
Speaker 2: I mean, is that dumb?

686
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,679
Speaker 3: Is that simple? What's the problem here?

687
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 2: Assuming that the one the monad is absolutely simple?

688
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 3: Now, why did he do that?

689
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,519
Speaker 2: Well, because the Greeks did this, the Platonists and Aristotle,

690
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,039
when they talked about what it is to be one

691
00:47:57,559 --> 00:47:59,840
or to have oneness, they said, well, that just means

692
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,559
that it's absolutely indivisible, absolutely simple, has no parts and

693
00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:06,639
has no composites.

694
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 3: And if you.

695
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 2: Talked about differentiation, right, if you talked about distinctions, then

696
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:19,079
that necessarily in their mind, it necessarily entailed division or composition.

697
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:21,559
But it doesn't.

698
00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:24,079
Speaker 3: No, it doesn't. That's the assumption.

699
00:48:25,199 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: So at this point it's good to read, for example,

700
00:48:27,519 --> 00:48:32,199
David Bradshaw's book Aristotle East and West, because that entire

701
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:39,360
book covers this very question. Why did the Greeks assume

702
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:50,920
that division always entails or excuse me, uh, distinction always

703
00:48:51,039 --> 00:48:58,119
entails division? Why? Well, they assumed that because of philosophical

704
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:04,239
baggage presuppositions that they were not equipped or willing to question,

705
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:12,199
because they placed human reasoning above revelation and divine truth,

706
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:15,920
which they thought might give them the upper hand, but

707
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,360
actually leads to absurdity. It leads to all the stupidity

708
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:24,039
of what I just talked about with the origin, And

709
00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:28,039
if you read Aristol East and West, Bradshaw will cover

710
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:33,679
this at length, in detail and all of its context

711
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,360
for how this kind of about, how to understand it.

712
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 5: So I want to show off something that we're all

713
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,679
proud of. I've got a browser here. This is Jay Dyers,

714
00:49:49,559 --> 00:49:54,599
much vaunted, much sought after philosophy one oh one. Now

715
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,039
he just got this page up. We are just testing

716
00:49:57,079 --> 00:49:58,400
it out. You guys are some of the first people

717
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,559
in the world to see it. I want to say,

718
00:50:00,639 --> 00:50:03,159
for my part, it's not philosophy one oh one. I

719
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:06,599
think this is as mistitling. I really think is as

720
00:50:06,639 --> 00:50:10,480
like philosophy unleashed, because a philosophy want on one course,

721
00:50:10,639 --> 00:50:12,679
they give you kind of some useless information that you

722
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,559
can't make sense of. Jay actually lays out over twelve weeks,

723
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,039
dozens and dozens of hours put into just the presentation

724
00:50:20,159 --> 00:50:22,400
of this, let alone the hundreds and thousands of hours

725
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,280
of research that it takes to have a coherent evolution

726
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,079
and history of the origins of philosophy, the uses of philosophy,

727
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,880
the different ways to look at it over time, and

728
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:35,360
how that has been brought about to what we have today,

729
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,679
which is almost an absence of philosophy on the objective,

730
00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:43,920
logic and reason side, in an overabundance of woke philosophy

731
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,599
that is irrational and is made up day by day

732
00:50:46,639 --> 00:50:49,360
as people are like I think we should bring racism back,

733
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,119
and then here's a justification, and then it gets wokeified

734
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,320
and spread out, and then all of a sudden you

735
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,519
have a bunch of communist socialist ideas where you become

736
00:50:57,559 --> 00:50:59,800
the property in action you need to be able to

737
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,639
stay on your own ground. It helps to have a

738
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,840
foundation in philosophy because it's a method to fine truth

739
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,440
when you get down to it. Philosophy is there because

740
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,760
you love truth enough to go and learn how to

741
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,280
find it, because it's valuable. So if you're interested in

742
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,199
things like that. There is the landing page. We'll link

743
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,840
it up into notes. It is a longer once, so

744
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,480
we'll get a shorter URL for this. I'm sure Jay

745
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,280
has a link on his page. I just wanted to

746
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:25,760
show it off. Now you know it exists, you can

747
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,280
go look for it and see why this is not

748
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,960
your father's philosophy. Right, So well done. I'm proud of

749
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,960
everyone who helped to produce and edit the course, and

750
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,760
of course Jay did a flawless job in presenting the

751
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,800
course over those twelve weeks. And he's a juggernaut. He's

752
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,679
another guy just like John Bush, in action all the time,

753
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,320
doing something productive, like very little wasted time in his week,

754
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:51,960
those one hundred and sixty eight hours of being harnessed

755
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:52,960
very well.

756
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,599
Speaker 2: The crux here is to understand that the Orthodox doction

757
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:00,480
of some implicity.

758
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 4: Right.

759
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,559
Speaker 2: So, for example, if you read any standard Orthodox dogmatic Manuel.

760
00:52:04,639 --> 00:52:07,760
If you read Saint John Damascus's defense of the Orthodox

761
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:12,480
Faith the classic right, I always recommend Catholics especially read that,

762
00:52:12,559 --> 00:52:15,639
because you'll see that Saint John consistently argues for all

763
00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:18,280
the Orthodox arguments, and you don't see him, you don't

764
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,920
see her Oman Catholics making these arguments. And in fact,

765
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:25,320
when Aquinas rejects the essence energy distinction, he specifically cites

766
00:52:25,679 --> 00:52:28,440
Saint John Damascus as to why he rejects it. And

767
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,760
when he rejects it on de veritate, the work is

768
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:36,119
called on truth. He cites Moses mimon IDEs against John Damascus.

769
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,760
You can't make this up. I've covered it in probably

770
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,039
twenty articles. I've rehashed at twenty times. I'm not going

771
00:52:41,079 --> 00:52:43,440
to rehash it again. If you can't go read articles,

772
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,400
then forget it. But he cites mim and IDEs, and

773
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:53,920
he says mimon IDEs uh does not accept the distinction

774
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,559
between essence and energy because it would mean that God

775
00:52:56,599 --> 00:52:57,159
has parts.

776
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 3: Now let's take thisssumption and show how still it is.

777
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,039
Speaker 2: If we agree with the Greek philosophers and the Platonists

778
00:53:06,159 --> 00:53:11,480
that all distinction implies composition and division, then you can't

779
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,880
believe that the Father is distinct from the Sun, or

780
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:16,800
that the Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son,

781
00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:21,960
because that would entail composition and division. Duh, it's dumb.

782
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,719
So what's the key here, dropping the philosophical baggage assumptions.

783
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:29,519
Speaker 3: It's that simple.

784
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: This right here has caused the giant, entire division between

785
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,559
the East and the West for two thousand years in

786
00:53:36,599 --> 00:53:39,599
the church. Now again, when you read Saint John Damascus,

787
00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:43,000
who will tell you about divine simplicity, He'll say God's simple.

788
00:53:43,039 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 3: When you read Saint Basil, he'll say God's simple.

789
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,760
Speaker 2: But they also say that God also is distinct and diverse.

790
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:54,960
He's also many, He's not just one, and distinction does

791
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,280
not entail division. Now why do the philosophers say that, Well,

792
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,960
because in the world, things that are distinct to do

793
00:54:02,599 --> 00:54:06,199
oftentimes entail division. If I can make a distinction between

794
00:54:07,079 --> 00:54:08,719
you know, the top of a thing and the bottom

795
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,519
of a thing, I can split it in half and

796
00:54:10,559 --> 00:54:13,320
I could say here's the top, there's the bottom. Right,

797
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,679
So they reasoned, if God is different from all the

798
00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:21,800
things in the world, then there's not a way to

799
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,159
divide him or split him up. And so they reasoned,

800
00:54:25,199 --> 00:54:28,559
we can't believe in any distinctions. But now, wait a minute.

801
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,559
The Old Testament itself had already taught that there were

802
00:54:32,599 --> 00:54:35,159
distinctions in God, namely by the fact that he freely

803
00:54:35,199 --> 00:54:37,199
created the world, which means that his will and his

804
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,639
actions are not the same as his essence. And also

805
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,679
because of the fact of the Theophanes, the Angel of

806
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,760
the Lord that appears. Now, how could the Angel of

807
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:52,079
the Lord appear if God is absolutely simple? Now Augustine says, well,

808
00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:56,320
they're holograms. They must be holograms because the Trinity can't

809
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:57,280
appear within time and space.

810
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:58,199
Speaker 3: Now wait a minute.

811
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 2: If the Trinity can't appear within time is space, then

812
00:55:02,599 --> 00:55:05,960
how did the Son become incarnate? Because the Sun appears

813
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,119
within time and space. And not only that, the Trinity

814
00:55:09,119 --> 00:55:12,800
didn't become incarnate. That would be theomachy, the death of

815
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,559
the entire Godhead. That's stupid. No, only one hypostasis of

816
00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:21,480
the Trinity took on human nature. So not only are

817
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:25,039
the persons distinct, one person of the Godhead can actually

818
00:55:25,159 --> 00:55:27,360
enter into a mode of being in which the others

819
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,840
do not. The Father did not become incarnate, and guess what.

820
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,920
Only orthodoxeology discusses this and makes sense of it. Why,

821
00:55:35,039 --> 00:55:37,320
because we don't believe in absolute divine sublicity. Absolute divine

822
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:42,119
simplicity would negate the possibility of free creation by God's

823
00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:46,039
free will, because it would equate the divine will with

824
00:55:46,119 --> 00:55:49,960
the divine essence. Divine essence is not something that can

825
00:55:50,159 --> 00:55:53,639
will to be changed. Therefore it's determined. Therefore creation is determined.

826
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,159
God's essence cannot become other than it is. And if

827
00:55:56,199 --> 00:55:58,559
you equate the act of creating the world with God's essence,

828
00:55:58,599 --> 00:56:02,039
which Platonism and absolute divineslicity it does, then you get

829
00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:07,440
a determined, necessary creation. You don't get a creation freely done. Now,

830
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,239
the only way out of this is to believe in

831
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,320
the essence energy distinction, which the Orthodox Church is always taught.

832
00:56:13,159 --> 00:56:14,960
This is why we believe creation was a free action.

833
00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:19,000
It was not determined, It was not a platonic emanation.

834
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:24,000
Blah blah blah. So the key to all of this

835
00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:28,199
is just simply giving up the philosophic assumption that distinction

836
00:56:28,559 --> 00:56:33,360
entails division, that distinction entails composition. And every Roman Catholic

837
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,360
already agrees with us, and Protestant too, because Protestants teach

838
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:38,920
the exact same doctrine of absolute dens. All the Puritans,

839
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,840
all the Reformers, they all teach philioquay. They all teach

840
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:46,119
absolute divine simplicity. So this is why I don't often

841
00:56:46,199 --> 00:56:49,239
argue about the philio oquay, because philioquay is confusing and

842
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,440
it's difficult, and people get lost in trying to dig

843
00:56:53,519 --> 00:56:55,519
up Church for other quotes. And it's not even ultimately

844
00:56:55,519 --> 00:56:59,199
about the philioquay. It's about absolute divine simplicity, because that's.

845
00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 3: What condition as the philioak. You wouldn't even need the filioquay.

846
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 2: As a bad theological argument like the Roman Catholics tried

847
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:08,480
to use it for.

848
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 3: It wouldn't even be there.

849
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:11,599
Speaker 2: It wouldn't even be a problem if you had just

850
00:57:11,639 --> 00:57:14,559
believed in the essence energy distinction and followed through with

851
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:22,920
the more profound doctrine of the trinity that you get

852
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:27,800
in Eastern theology. For example, Saint John Damascus, we'll discuss

853
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:37,440
the distinction between hyposthetic origin and the eternal manifestation. This

854
00:57:37,519 --> 00:57:41,320
is explained at linked in Saint Greory Palomas. Roman Catholics

855
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,199
have no idea what you're talking about when you discuss

856
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,280
these things. They don't know what that is, they have

857
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,880
no idea why that matters? Where we get that? Who

858
00:57:48,039 --> 00:57:49,920
came up with it? What are you talking about? Saint

859
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,559
Basil talked about it, Sat John Demascus talks about it,

860
00:57:52,559 --> 00:57:56,599
and Saint Grey Palomas filled it out more perfectly precisely

861
00:57:56,679 --> 00:57:59,960
because it's necessary once you understand the essence energy distinction.

862
00:58:00,159 --> 00:58:04,000
That aspect of understanding God is necessary because it shows

863
00:58:04,079 --> 00:58:07,079
is that there's a distinction between energies that relate to

864
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,360
eternal manifestation of God's glory and energies that relate to creation.

865
00:58:12,039 --> 00:58:15,400
That's very important because if you don't make that distinction,

866
00:58:15,559 --> 00:58:20,199
then there's no difference between God generating the sun and

867
00:58:20,239 --> 00:58:24,039
God creating the world. So some of God's attributes, such

868
00:58:24,079 --> 00:58:26,599
as the glory of God, the love of God, those

869
00:58:26,679 --> 00:58:29,519
are eternal. They would have always been manifesting from the Father,

870
00:58:29,599 --> 00:58:31,039
through the Son and in the Spirit.

871
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:32,119
Speaker 3: Whether there have been creation or not.

872
00:58:33,639 --> 00:58:37,119
Speaker 2: However, when we think about operations of God that relate

873
00:58:37,199 --> 00:58:41,840
to time and space providence, right, those are different. But

874
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,320
in absolute divine simplicity, you have a smashing together of

875
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,280
those two different aspects or layers, you could say, in

876
00:58:49,719 --> 00:58:52,480
a just in an analogical way, layers. God doesn't actually

877
00:58:52,519 --> 00:58:55,400
have layers, but just for the sake of discussion and description.

878
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,199
When you smash those two things together, you have all

879
00:58:59,239 --> 00:59:03,679
the problems that I detailed in many essays, like the

880
00:59:03,719 --> 00:59:07,880
fact that the Holy Spirit is equated with the will

881
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,800
of the Father and the Son, which is retarded. It's

882
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:12,960
the same argument that the Arians used as to why

883
00:59:13,519 --> 00:59:16,880
Jesus wasn't divine, is because he's the will of the Father, right,

884
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,440
He's a production of the will of the Father. And

885
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,559
then Roman Catholics make oftentimes this dumb argument about the

886
00:59:22,599 --> 00:59:26,039
Holy Spirit being the production of the will of the

887
00:59:26,039 --> 00:59:30,400
Father and the Son, which is completely stupid. That is

888
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:36,920
an example of not understanding the distinction between the attributes

889
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,679
or energies of God that relate to all eternity, right,

890
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,960
the eternal procession, eternal manifestation of energies, which is discussed

891
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,559
at the Council of Blackernee against John Becos, who wanted

892
00:59:48,599 --> 00:59:51,079
to unite with Rome on the Philioquay, he's condemned the

893
00:59:51,159 --> 00:59:54,920
tumos against John Becos. He's condemned precisely because Roman Catholics

894
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,039
don't understand this distinction.

895
00:59:56,159 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 3: So if you read.

896
00:59:56,719 --> 00:59:59,639
Speaker 2: Saint Gregor Palamas. He will go at length into discussing this.

897
00:59:59,719 --> 01:00:08,519
He's every Roman Catholic confuses God's hypostatic origin with eternal manifestation.

898
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,679
So they think that For example, if you point out

899
01:00:14,159 --> 01:00:18,199
to a Roman Catholic, say a Roman calic, will say

900
01:00:18,239 --> 01:00:23,599
something like, look, you Orthodox split Jesus from the Holy Spirit,

901
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,239
but if the persons endwell one another, then Jesus could

902
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:32,119
never be divided from the production of the Holy Spirit. Well,

903
01:00:32,239 --> 01:00:34,519
the response that we have is that we don't split

904
01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:42,039
Jesus from the eternal procession of the Spirit. We say

905
01:00:42,079 --> 01:00:45,199
that he absolutely proceeds through the Son, that is in

906
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:49,400
our dogma, but he is not the hypostatic origin of

907
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:49,880
the spirit.

908
01:00:50,159 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 3: And this is precisely why.

909
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 2: And by the way, the fact that the person's endwell

910
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,960
one another also doesn't prove that one of them because

911
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,119
the Father endwells the Son, does that mean Jesus is

912
01:00:59,119 --> 01:01:02,960
the origin of the No, That's ridiculous. So again this

913
01:01:03,079 --> 01:01:06,519
is because in dwelling of the persons, it's fine to

914
01:01:06,559 --> 01:01:12,000
talk about the indwelling of the person's circumsession, right, but

915
01:01:12,519 --> 01:01:17,800
that is not equated with trying to argue hypostatic origin.

916
01:01:18,119 --> 01:01:21,679
And it's only Orthodox theology that holds to hypostetic origin

917
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:24,360
as the way to distinguish the persons. Any other position

918
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,519
or attempt will confuse them. Now, why do they even

919
01:01:27,519 --> 01:01:30,760
do that? They only do it because of absolute my simplicity,

920
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,519
even if they don't know it when they go in

921
01:01:33,559 --> 01:01:37,320
they mind the church follows for quotes about the procession

922
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,360
of the sun or excuse me of the spirit, which

923
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,119
for example, they'll they'll try to use the quote where

924
01:01:43,159 --> 01:01:46,519
Saint John Damascus is talking about eternal manifestation and say,

925
01:01:46,559 --> 01:01:49,920
see see the Spirit proceeds through the sun in John Jamascus.

926
01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what we teach.

927
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,639
Speaker 2: But John Damascus doesn't see teach that there's a double

928
01:01:54,719 --> 01:01:55,880
hyposthetic origin.

929
01:01:55,639 --> 01:01:56,119
Speaker 3: Of the spirit.

930
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 2: He specifically does not teach the filioquay, and in fact

931
01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:01,519
he rejects it if you read on the Orthodox faith.

932
01:02:01,519 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 3: Now, why would he do that?

933
01:02:05,239 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 2: But he does it because of all the reasons I'm

934
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:12,039
telling you, And he doesn't believe in absolute divine simplicity,

935
01:02:12,719 --> 01:02:18,639
because he didn't have the assumption of the Greeks that

936
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:28,400
composition and distinction always entails division. There's no dialectics in

937
01:02:28,559 --> 01:02:35,000
this philosophy. So this may seem abtuoe. But I'm telling you,

938
01:02:35,239 --> 01:02:39,960
I put at least ten years into this very question,

939
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:42,519
and I'm telling you this.

940
01:02:42,519 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 3: Is why it's such a big deal.

941
01:02:44,039 --> 01:02:46,679
Speaker 2: This is why it matters because all systems and I'm

942
01:02:46,679 --> 01:02:49,880
not trying to be overly spurgey here, but it is

943
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:54,480
true that the starting point will condition a system.

944
01:02:54,679 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 3: Right.

945
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,079
Speaker 2: This is why we do presubsistional apologetics and analysis of

946
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:02,960
If I start with the assumption of a materialism, that

947
01:03:03,079 --> 01:03:06,039
leads to other conclusions that the atheist is not immediately

948
01:03:06,079 --> 01:03:10,079
aware of. So, for example, in atheism or materialism, there

949
01:03:10,119 --> 01:03:13,480
is an assumption about metaphysics, an assumption about knowledge, and

950
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:16,920
assumption about ethics. And it's not difficult to tease out

951
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,800
how confused and garbled and nonsensical it is because they

952
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:24,199
immediately box themselves in to a nonsense position from the outset.

953
01:03:24,519 --> 01:03:28,360
It's contradictory because the position is stupid. It's contradictory. So,

954
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:33,079
for example, they can't explain logic, they can't explain numbers,

955
01:03:33,119 --> 01:03:35,880
they can't explain consciousness, they can't explain the past, they

956
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:40,559
can't explain identity over time. There's all of these really fundamental,

957
01:03:40,679 --> 01:03:45,920
stupid philosophical questions that they destroy themselves over when they

958
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,719
start with those presubpositions.

959
01:03:48,679 --> 01:03:49,519
Speaker 3: But they're not aware of it.

960
01:03:49,559 --> 01:03:51,119
Speaker 2: But when you make them aware of it, that's when

961
01:03:51,119 --> 01:03:54,199
you start to see the collapse of those systems. Now,

962
01:03:55,039 --> 01:03:58,480
not every system is immediately collapsible this quick, because in

963
01:03:59,039 --> 01:04:03,239
history things work out over centuries and over time and

964
01:04:03,239 --> 01:04:07,800
over generations. So it wasn't always immediately apparent to everybody.

965
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:14,760
You know how Dialectics and Hellenism was undergirding all of

966
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:20,880
these disputes, except for guess what, in later councils they

967
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:25,239
started noticing this, The church fathers that later council started realizing, hey,

968
01:04:25,559 --> 01:04:28,760
they're just rehashing the errors of the Greeks. So by

969
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,559
the time of the Sonoticon, right where in the liturgy

970
01:04:32,679 --> 01:04:36,559
you have the triumph of Orthodoxy celebrated, the Sonoticon contains

971
01:04:36,639 --> 01:04:41,280
this giant list of condemnations, and in some churches they

972
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:45,000
still read the full Sonoticon of Orthodoxy, which condemns the polateness,

973
01:04:45,039 --> 01:04:48,199
which condemns the originists, which condemns on and on on all.

974
01:04:48,079 --> 01:04:49,719
Speaker 3: This Greek gobledegook.

975
01:04:50,199 --> 01:04:52,599
Speaker 2: And guess what it says that very point, it says

976
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,639
the Church has battled the Greeks for the last eight centuries,

977
01:04:56,679 --> 01:05:00,679
and we have emerged victorious. The iconic class, which is

978
01:05:00,719 --> 01:05:04,960
another version of the heretics, the heresies, another inversion of

979
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,880
the same stuff. We have emerged victorious. We condemn Plato's forms,

980
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:21,559
we condemn Aristitilian heresies, we condemn originism and origins gobbledegook.

981
01:05:22,679 --> 01:05:25,480
And yes, the Six Council condemns.

982
01:05:26,719 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 3: Well.

983
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:32,079
Speaker 2: The Six Council bases its argument for orthodox Christology on

984
01:05:32,079 --> 01:05:35,639
the essence energy distinction. Again I've made there is no

985
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,719
argument against this. There is literally no argument against us.

986
01:05:38,719 --> 01:05:52,119
If you read the debate with Pearis, this is what

987
01:05:52,159 --> 01:06:01,480
Maximus says. Maximus says, all you clowns are masters of dialectics.

988
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 3: Do you see this book?

989
01:06:05,079 --> 01:06:07,559
Speaker 2: Do you understand that this book is the basis for

990
01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:11,519
the six Ecumenical Council. This is an acumenical council that

991
01:06:11,559 --> 01:06:14,880
all Roman Caelics accept. This entire book, which is not

992
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,639
that long, like one hundred and fifty pages, is based

993
01:06:17,639 --> 01:06:20,199
on the essence energy distinction. It's based on a rejection

994
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:25,360
of dialectical tension. In Christ there's no dialectical tension between

995
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:28,760
man's will and grace. Grace is natural to man, Saint

996
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,159
Maximus says, Now, if the whole damn Council is based

997
01:06:32,199 --> 01:06:35,119
on this argument, and if the Pope's dogmatic letter to

998
01:06:35,159 --> 01:06:38,760
the Council, Pope Agatho.

999
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 3: Grounds the whole argument.

1000
01:06:41,079 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 2: On this book and the essen Centergy distinction, how on

1001
01:06:44,519 --> 01:06:46,360
earth are Roman Catholics is going to deny the essence

1002
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:51,559
Entergy distinction. And what do you get from the Roman Catholics, Well,

1003
01:06:51,599 --> 01:06:52,320
you get two replies.

1004
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 3: You get one group that says.

1005
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 2: The essence Centergy distinction is Neoplatonism. They don't know what

1006
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,440
the hell they're talking about. No, well, you teach neoplatonism

1007
01:07:01,519 --> 01:07:04,920
by teaching absolute divine simplicity, which is directly from Plotonis.

1008
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:10,400
The origin borrowed it directly from Plotonis. Eunomius teaches absolute

1009
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:15,559
divine simplicity, and he rejects, yes, his intergudistinction precisely because

1010
01:07:15,559 --> 01:07:18,760
of absolute divines. Gregor Nissa has a giant, thousand page

1011
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,599
book against Eunomius, and Eunomia says all the exact same

1012
01:07:21,599 --> 01:07:25,440
thing that Roman Celics say. But Eunomius is more consistent

1013
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:29,280
because he says, look, if all distinction entails division, then

1014
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:33,079
the Father's not different from the Son, or the Father

1015
01:07:33,239 --> 01:07:37,159
is a higher being and the Son is a subordinate being.

1016
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:43,960
If absolute divine simplicity is true and the Father is

1017
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:49,239
distinct from the Son, and you want to avoid composition

1018
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,519
in God, then the Son has to be a lesser being.

1019
01:07:52,559 --> 01:08:07,320
They argued, this is why Roman Catholicism leads to perennialism.

1020
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:11,199
There is no argument against this, there's not I've argued

1021
01:08:11,239 --> 01:08:13,840
this for a decade now with Roman Catholics.

1022
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 3: What can you say. I mean, if you read this book,

1023
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:21,920
it's abundantly clear.

1024
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,199
Speaker 2: And then you get two sides of Roman Catholics that

1025
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:30,079
they'll say, oh, you're a neo Platonist. If you believe

1026
01:08:30,079 --> 01:08:31,840
in the essense and energy distinction, you believe.

1027
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:32,319
Speaker 3: God has parts.

1028
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 2: Well, that's absurd, because Pope Saint Agatha wrote a letter

1029
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:44,640
to the sixth Council based on disputations with Paris, and

1030
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,560
he affirms the essence energy stinction in the person of Christ.

1031
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:51,039
Christ has two wells and two energies. That's in the

1032
01:08:51,079 --> 01:08:54,279
dogmatic letter. And then the other half of the Roman

1033
01:08:54,279 --> 01:08:57,239
Catholics say, oh, well, no, no, no, you see essence

1034
01:08:57,239 --> 01:09:04,720
synergy stinction is perfectly, perfectly meldible with Orthodox theology? Oh

1035
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,479
oh is it? Why is it that there are multiple

1036
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:13,319
dogmatic statements in Denzinger that you have to accept absolute

1037
01:09:13,359 --> 01:09:15,640
divine simplicity and that the attributes of God are not

1038
01:09:16,039 --> 01:09:21,520
in any way distinct from his essence. And again I

1039
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:30,760
have a whole essay on that. So anyway, let's pull

1040
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:35,199
that essay up so that areboy understands and the Roman

1041
01:09:35,239 --> 01:09:46,920
Catholic has nowhere to retreat. By the way, isn't that

1042
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,520
funny that they have two responses on this. One half

1043
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:57,600
of them says it's neoplatonism and one half of them says,

1044
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:04,760
which I'm not faulting if that just confused, But just

1045
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,359
go read this letter or this essay I wrote ream

1046
01:10:07,399 --> 01:10:09,720
with cathlic absolute deviance spilitory because I just all I

1047
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,079
did was go through the dogmatic statements in Rome that

1048
01:10:12,079 --> 01:10:13,600
you have to adhere to if you're a only Catholic

1049
01:10:15,239 --> 01:10:18,399
about what absolute domind siplicity is. So now you've heard

1050
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:20,479
me talk about this, why do I keep talking about it?

1051
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,680
I keep talking about it because this is the point

1052
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:30,560
of departure. This is the issue. This is why you

1053
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:36,680
can't meld Orthodoxy with Rome, because it's two different schemes,

1054
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:39,920
two different systems, and anybody who spent any time and

1055
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:46,479
neither one knows that like they're obviously it's different. And

1056
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:48,520
by the way, absolute deminds simplicity.

1057
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:51,239
Speaker 3: Guess what it gave rise to the papacy? Did you

1058
01:10:51,279 --> 01:10:51,520
know that?

1059
01:10:53,399 --> 01:10:54,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to get into some of that here

1060
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:56,520
in a little bit. But this is why we come

1061
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:04,239
back then full circle to this crucial point for apologetics.

1062
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 3: That the one is not a statement.

1063
01:11:08,159 --> 01:11:14,399
Speaker 2: Of impersonalism and essentialism. When Saint Basils says he.

1064
01:11:17,079 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 3: We are.

1065
01:11:19,359 --> 01:11:26,199
Speaker 2: Affirming that God is personal and not abstract or essential.

1066
01:11:27,399 --> 01:11:36,880
He's not manifestation of essentialism. I'm saying He's a personal God. Now,

1067
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:38,600
I've been wanting to cover that for a long time,

1068
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:43,039
but I'm going to go to some of these super

1069
01:11:43,119 --> 01:11:47,119
chats because we we've been going for a little while.

1070
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:47,199
Speaker 4: Here in it.

1071
01:11:47,239 --> 01:11:48,319
Speaker 3: But this needed to be covered.

1072
01:11:48,319 --> 01:11:50,720
Speaker 2: This needed to be discussed because so many people have

1073
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:55,199
brought this very issue up. And if you go through

1074
01:11:55,199 --> 01:11:56,720
all the stuff I've been telling you about, if you

1075
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:58,479
read the stuff I've been telling you about, you're going to.

1076
01:11:58,479 --> 01:11:59,039
Speaker 3: See him, right.

1077
01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 2: I know what I'm talking about on this, but I

1078
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:07,479
assure you read these books. These are the books that

1079
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,119
I've read over the years. This is how I came

1080
01:12:10,159 --> 01:12:12,880
to these views and just make them up.

1081
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:16,239
Speaker 3: So you don't know what you're talking about.

1082
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 2: Read on the Orthodox Faith you'll find St. John Demascus

1083
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:21,199
making all of these same arguments. Let's see watch this

1084
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,840
now the Roman Catholics think, oh, we believe exactly what

1085
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:28,199
Saint John Damascus teaches.

1086
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:30,800
Speaker 3: We believe all the exact same things as he does.

1087
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:38,880
Speaker 2: Oh really, what about the sections about the energies in Christ. Well,

1088
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:46,880
it's neil platonism, neo platonism.

1089
01:12:47,039 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 3: Really, let's see that.

1090
01:13:04,399 --> 01:13:08,520
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm gonna go to the New Advent version of

1091
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:13,920
it just because I want them to see that it's

1092
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:22,279
not it's not made up. All right, Let's start with

1093
01:13:23,239 --> 01:13:41,399
this section. This is on the Orthodox Faith Book three.

1094
01:13:42,119 --> 01:13:44,159
If any of these Roman Catholics would just read Saint

1095
01:13:44,239 --> 01:13:49,520
John Damascus from start to finish, it's all really clear

1096
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:53,960
concerning the properties of the two natures. Confessing then the

1097
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,159
same Jesus Christ our Lord, to be the Son of

1098
01:13:56,199 --> 01:14:00,079
God in perfect man. We hold that the same, all

1099
01:14:00,119 --> 01:14:01,720
the same, but all the attributes as the Father being

1100
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,239
in generate, and all the attributes of Adam save only

1101
01:14:04,279 --> 01:14:09,039
for his sin, these attributes being body, intelligence, rational soul.

1102
01:14:09,079 --> 01:14:11,000
This is what I was telling you earlier about Jesus

1103
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:14,279
has a fully human nature. He has corresponding to these

1104
01:14:14,319 --> 01:14:17,960
two natures, two sets of natural qualities belonging to these

1105
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:21,359
two natures, two natural volitions or wills, one divine and

1106
01:14:21,399 --> 01:14:24,880
one human. Two natural energies, one divine and one human.

1107
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:31,760
Two natural free wills, one divine and one human. He

1108
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:35,760
wills and energizes freely as God because of being the

1109
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:38,920
same essence with God. He wills and energizes freely as man,

1110
01:14:39,039 --> 01:14:40,600
because he has our human nature.

1111
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:42,359
Speaker 3: Do you see that?

1112
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,520
Speaker 2: Do you understand that that's what the six Ecumenical Council teaches,

1113
01:14:47,039 --> 01:14:50,920
That's what Saint Maximus teaches. Do you understand that every

1114
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:55,600
Roman Catholic thinks that they have a perfect unity of

1115
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:59,000
faith with John of Damascus? Do you do you really

1116
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:10,000
they think he is a doctor of the Church. Therefore,

1117
01:15:10,039 --> 01:15:11,720
in the case of the Father and the Son the Spirit,

1118
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:15,520
we recognize from their sameness of will and energy, there's

1119
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:19,279
one will in God, sameness of energy in God. By

1120
01:15:19,319 --> 01:15:23,439
the way, this is also something that Taylor Marshall, for example,

1121
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,399
we had a debate about this ten years ago. He

1122
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:28,880
goes to one section in Saint Johnamascus at the beginning

1123
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:31,439
where Saint John Damascus says that God has one energy

1124
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,640
because of one nature, and then he acts like that

1125
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:38,840
proves that energy and essence are basically the same in God.

1126
01:15:39,359 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 3: No he doesn't.

1127
01:15:40,039 --> 01:15:42,720
Speaker 2: He goes on to say that God's energy is both

1128
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:46,520
one and many, again just ripping stuff out of context with,

1129
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:50,439
of course, what rome clics always do. But he goes

1130
01:15:50,479 --> 01:15:55,359
on to make, of course, plenty of statements about the energies.

1131
01:15:57,399 --> 01:16:00,520
In fact, in book three there are thirty six statements

1132
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:03,439
I'm looking at right now, thirty six discussions of the

1133
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:23,800
energies in Christ. For just to be noted that willing

1134
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:25,720
and the manner willing are not the same thing to

1135
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:27,960
will as the faculty of nature, just as seeing is

1136
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:34,840
for all men. Did here we go, I went sorry

1137
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:37,960
this wrong section. It does not introduce in division in God. See,

1138
01:16:38,119 --> 01:16:40,880
making these distinctions is not introduced division, but God merely

1139
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:45,640
the fact that the differences between them are safeguard and

1140
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:48,359
preserved in the union of the incarnation. For we hold

1141
01:16:48,359 --> 01:16:52,159
that wills and energies are faculties that belong to nature,

1142
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:56,720
not person. Subsistence means person there right, So if will

1143
01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:00,479
and energy were properties of persons, and there would be

1144
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:02,520
one will and energy in Christ, and we would be

1145
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:05,479
monophesites and monolty lies. But we're not. I mean those

1146
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:07,560
faculties of will and energy about which He wills and

1147
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:10,520
energizes and does so. For if we allow that they

1148
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,920
belong to subsistence, which means person hypostasis, we will be

1149
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:16,479
forced to say that there are that the three persons

1150
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,920
of the Holy Trinity have different wills and different energies. Correct,

1151
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:27,520
because will is a property of nature and energy. Energy

1152
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:29,880
is an effect of nature. It's an outworking and production

1153
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:50,119
of nature. Now where do we get this idea of

1154
01:17:50,239 --> 01:17:53,600
energies in Christ? The incarnation, by the way, proves the

1155
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:55,279
essence energy sinction.

1156
01:17:57,079 --> 01:17:57,640
Speaker 3: Very clearly.

1157
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:04,000
Speaker 2: No debate. What is this concerning the energies in Christ?

1158
01:18:04,239 --> 01:18:04,680
Speaker 3: What is this?

1159
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:05,960
Speaker 2: What is this talking about?

1160
01:18:07,279 --> 01:18:07,359
Speaker 4: Now?

1161
01:18:07,399 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 3: Who does he go to? Is he make it up?

1162
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 4: No?

1163
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:11,680
Speaker 2: He goes back to Saint Gregory. If energy exists, it

1164
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:15,000
must manifestly be energized, and will not energize. As soon

1165
01:18:15,039 --> 01:18:20,159
as it has been energized, it will cease. So Saint

1166
01:18:20,199 --> 01:18:24,039
Gregory talks about Essen's energy. We hold further that there

1167
01:18:24,039 --> 01:18:25,800
are two energies in our energies a Christ, for he

1168
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:29,039
possesses one as God and being of luck with the Father,

1169
01:18:30,319 --> 01:18:33,520
the divine energy, and likewise he possesses became man of

1170
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:37,760
like essence and energy property human nature, on and on

1171
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:40,560
and on. I mean, this is the entirety of Book

1172
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:45,119
three is about the divine economy and the incarnation. So

1173
01:18:45,159 --> 01:18:48,279
you could read the entirety of book three and you

1174
01:18:48,319 --> 01:18:53,600
will get orthodox doctrine. Of course, lazies are not going

1175
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:58,920
to actually read this, will they know they won't thirty

1176
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:12,960
six sections thirty six sections here discussing essence energy, and

1177
01:19:13,079 --> 01:19:17,199
know the fact that he says that because there's one nature,

1178
01:19:17,199 --> 01:19:19,720
there's one energy. He also says there are many energies.

1179
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:21,359
So don't fall into.

1180
01:19:21,119 --> 01:19:25,479
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Speaker 2: The dooping the light of doctor Taylor or Marshall, which,

1224
01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:05,079
by the way, if he just read these he would

1225
01:22:05,119 --> 01:22:07,039
know that too. He would know he's being dishonest in

1226
01:22:07,079 --> 01:22:17,000
that regard, or he's ignorant. By the way, it's also

1227
01:22:17,239 --> 01:22:20,159
obviously preposterous to say that all of the attribute even

1228
01:22:20,199 --> 01:22:22,520
if you said that, because John Damascus says in one

1229
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:24,600
place that there's one energy, even though he says elsewhere

1230
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:28,039
there's many energies. Even if you tried to argue that,

1231
01:22:28,119 --> 01:22:30,199
it also leads to absurdity because if you said that

1232
01:22:30,239 --> 01:22:33,159
all the attributes are essentially just one energy in God,

1233
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:36,039
I'm sorry, but love is not the same thing as foreknowledge.

1234
01:22:36,079 --> 01:22:36,800
Speaker 3: Fore knowledge is not.

1235
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 2: The same things as justice. Okay, they're obviously different. By

1236
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:44,880
the way, that would also mean that there's no distinction

1237
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:47,920
between the eternal attributes of God, the eternal energies, and

1238
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:50,800
the energies that relate to time and space. So rewind

1239
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:53,239
to all the critiques that have made an hour ago

1240
01:22:53,319 --> 01:22:57,039
about originism, same problem results. But they don't know any

1241
01:22:57,039 --> 01:23:00,199
of this because they don't study this, and they won't.

1242
01:23:03,399 --> 01:23:05,720
They are hard headed all right, So I'm gonna read

1243
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:08,399
some super chats when I get back. I got to

1244
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:15,439
use the potty potty time. I'll be right back and

1245
01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:20,119
we will talk more. We're gonna get back into some

1246
01:23:20,159 --> 01:23:23,039
stuff to do with numbers, as I said I originally promised.

1247
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:26,119
We're gonna talk about transcendent arguments numbers in nature. We're

1248
01:23:26,119 --> 01:23:28,920
going to talk about some books on the philosophy of evolution.

1249
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:30,359
We're gonna talk about form in nature. Were going to

1250
01:23:30,399 --> 01:23:33,119
talk about aesthetics and the good how that relates also

1251
01:23:33,159 --> 01:23:37,359
to epistemology. We're going to talk about the one and

1252
01:23:37,399 --> 01:23:39,479
the many problem as it relates to philosop We've already

1253
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:41,680
covered some of the one in the issue. We're gonna

1254
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:46,720
talk about ultimate irrational and rational tensions in the unbelievers worldview.

1255
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:48,880
We're going to talk about coherence theory, and we're gonna

1256
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:52,039
get back into more about nominalism and realism, and we'll

1257
01:23:52,079 --> 01:23:56,399
have more super chat questions as well. But I am

1258
01:23:56,399 --> 01:24:01,000
a human being with human nature and property. I have

1259
01:24:01,159 --> 01:24:04,760
faculties proper to my human nature which require me to

1260
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:07,279
go T T. So I'm gonna go T T in

1261
01:24:07,279 --> 01:24:08,119
the moment I come back.

1262
01:24:40,359 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 4: It's a Jay di Er, Jason Elison, m HM.

1263
01:25:15,560 --> 01:27:00,000
Speaker 1: J dires Day Smells, Jade Irens Days Analysis.

1264
01:27:00,119 --> 01:27:01,800
Speaker 4: It's jayder to Jay's analysis.

1265
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:42,159
Speaker 2: All right, welcome back, and let's touch on some of

1266
01:27:42,159 --> 01:27:50,239
these superjet questions before we move on in the discussion. Now,

1267
01:27:50,279 --> 01:27:52,920
I know that we've hit on these issues before, but

1268
01:27:53,039 --> 01:27:56,399
what I want to stress is the connection between issues

1269
01:27:56,439 --> 01:28:01,119
like absolute devide, simplicity, the one the monad Basil talks about,

1270
01:28:01,199 --> 01:28:03,800
how God is he not an it? This is all

1271
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:07,079
very crucial and all of these things relate. So people

1272
01:28:07,079 --> 01:28:10,119
are asking questions in the chat, for example, about Buddhism

1273
01:28:10,239 --> 01:28:12,920
and that kind of stuff. Yes, this all relates to

1274
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:16,159
the same issues because all of the far Eastern religions,

1275
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:20,520
just as we said earlier with Plato and Platonism, the Greeks,

1276
01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:23,199
the ancient Greeks, right, if you look at the pre Socratics,

1277
01:28:23,199 --> 01:28:27,119
the Ionians, they were looking for an all encompassing principle

1278
01:28:27,159 --> 01:28:29,399
to make sense of everything. Okay, so there were some

1279
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:33,479
interesting ideas that they had about, hey, maybe everything relates

1280
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:36,479
to one another in some way. How can we find

1281
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:41,319
something that can relate meaning things meaningfully to another thing?

1282
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:46,239
Like what does the chair in China have to do

1283
01:28:46,319 --> 01:28:50,319
with Bill Cosby in America. Well, nothing, okay, but they

1284
01:28:50,359 --> 01:28:54,039
are all existing things, right, Yes, so existence is something

1285
01:28:54,079 --> 01:28:56,600
that we would assume or predicate in some sense to

1286
01:28:56,760 --> 01:28:57,640
both of those things.

1287
01:28:57,760 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 3: Yes, how is that possible?

1288
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:02,520
Speaker 2: Or how can we make sense of that given the

1289
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:07,760
fact that our minds, our experience is limited in finite right.

1290
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:12,000
So the Greeks would try to look for ways, these

1291
01:29:12,039 --> 01:29:15,119
early Greeks.

1292
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:15,520
Speaker 3: In philosophy, to link everything.

1293
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:18,920
Speaker 2: Maybe everything is connected in some way, linked in some

1294
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:23,359
way in a meaningful way. If I predicate scherness or

1295
01:29:23,479 --> 01:29:30,800
existence or equality of Bill Cosby and the ancient emperor

1296
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:34,399
of China. Right, they are human beings, and I'm saying

1297
01:29:34,399 --> 01:29:37,079
that they possess a common nature that in some way

1298
01:29:37,159 --> 01:29:40,800
links them over time and space. That assumes a whole

1299
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:45,119
bunch of different metaphysical realities and categories and principles that

1300
01:29:45,199 --> 01:29:49,239
are not immediately empirical empirically verifiable. However, it's assumed in

1301
01:29:49,279 --> 01:29:53,279
the process of talking about them meaningfully and making sense

1302
01:29:53,319 --> 01:29:57,039
of them. This is why Nietzsche says, for example, we

1303
01:29:57,119 --> 01:29:59,359
have not yet got rid of God because we still

1304
01:29:59,399 --> 01:30:03,600
have faith. In Grammar Twilight of Idols, Why is neats

1305
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:05,640
you say that because Nietzsche is against the stuff I'm

1306
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:10,000
talking about. Nietzsche, for all of his insights, does not

1307
01:30:10,079 --> 01:30:15,119
believe in truth. Nietzsche believes that truth is a power relation.

1308
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:19,159
It's just imposed upon you by you know, your overlords

1309
01:30:19,159 --> 01:30:22,720
are used against you or whatever. But what we're going

1310
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:30,800
to see is that all kinds of things like numbers, language, logic, geometry, concepts,

1311
01:30:32,039 --> 01:30:36,399
logical forms relating to one another, these things require more

1312
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:40,880
than just bare materialism. Okay, this is kind of the

1313
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:42,880
heart of the transcendental argument.

1314
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:47,560
Speaker 3: And when we watch the atheist.

1315
01:30:47,239 --> 01:30:48,880
Speaker 2: Or the unbeliever or the non believe, when they when

1316
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:52,960
we watch them try to utilize things like logic, like language,

1317
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:57,880
like concepts like meaning, they will argue against meaning. Right,

1318
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:01,520
They'll say, meaning is a human invention. For you know

1319
01:31:02,199 --> 01:31:04,439
that you make up you make up your own meaning

1320
01:31:04,439 --> 01:31:09,079
as a social construct. And that's utterly self refuting. They

1321
01:31:09,239 --> 01:31:13,159
undermine themselves their own argumentation every time they talk, because

1322
01:31:13,199 --> 01:31:16,880
they assume rational, meaningful discourse from one mind to another,

1323
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:23,800
which is impossible on their system. Okay, it's like I remember,

1324
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:26,840
I always tell the story because it's the most illustrative,

1325
01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:32,000
hilarious example. I went to a debate many many years ago,

1326
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:37,680
when I was eighteen between a presubpositionalist. No, I was nineteen,

1327
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:41,399
excuse me, between a presubsitionalist and an atheist a long

1328
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:41,840
time ago.

1329
01:31:43,239 --> 01:31:44,079
Speaker 3: I don't even remember where.

1330
01:31:44,079 --> 01:31:47,880
Speaker 2: It was, somewhere on the east coast Pennsylvania, somewhere. It

1331
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:50,159
was a small venue, like maybe one hundred people for

1332
01:31:50,239 --> 01:31:54,600
this debate, and the one guy was like a head

1333
01:31:54,600 --> 01:32:00,159
of the Free Thinking Society or some bullshit. Anyway, So

1334
01:32:00,239 --> 01:32:02,640
after the debate that it was me and the guy

1335
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:05,680
who was debating I think it was Michael Butler. He

1336
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:09,439
was a student of Bonson if you've ever heard of him. Uh,

1337
01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:11,680
and the atheist I think Michael Butler left. It was

1338
01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:14,439
me and two of my buddies talking to the atheists

1339
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:20,399
and his goons, and we said, he said, look, you know,

1340
01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:22,600
I don't I just don't get your transdental argument. It

1341
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:24,600
doesn't make any sense. You know. You you make these

1342
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:28,439
arguments all the time, you're talking about you know, all

1343
01:32:28,439 --> 01:32:31,680
these categories you're talking about, meaning you're talking about transcedental concept.

1344
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:35,239
He's like, look, that's all just stuff that humans cook up.

1345
01:32:37,720 --> 01:32:42,560
And he said something to the effect of the real,

1346
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:46,840
the real thing that you guys are scared of is

1347
01:32:47,359 --> 01:32:51,000
that you are afraid to admit that it's all meaningless.

1348
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:55,520
I said, no, wait a minute, are you saying that

1349
01:32:55,560 --> 01:32:58,760
the universe is meaningless? He says, yes, the big scope universe.

1350
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:03,199
Speaker 3: It's all meaningless. And that's what you're afraid of.

1351
01:33:03,239 --> 01:33:08,439
Speaker 2: He says, I said, okay, well, we're gonna use sexy

1352
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:11,680
sax Men for this guy. Okay, this is this this

1353
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:16,239
atheist guy's and he's the intellectual equivalent of sexy sax

1354
01:33:16,279 --> 01:33:23,680
Men to the music world. He says, everything's meaningless and

1355
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:25,439
that's what you're pasted. Okay, So look, first of all,

1356
01:33:25,479 --> 01:33:28,319
that's an appeal to emotion, which is a fallacy. In

1357
01:33:28,319 --> 01:33:31,039
other words, you're saying that our position is false because

1358
01:33:31,079 --> 01:33:34,319
we're afraid. All right, so Christianity exists. This is the

1359
01:33:34,399 --> 01:33:37,199
argument you hear from Jesse Ventura. You know, people only

1360
01:33:37,199 --> 01:33:39,680
believe Christianity because because they need a crutch.

1361
01:33:40,039 --> 01:33:44,159
Speaker 3: They're afraid. Now that's a fallacy.

1362
01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:47,359
Speaker 2: Bertrand Russell in his famous essay, which is terrible, by

1363
01:33:47,399 --> 01:33:49,720
the way, full of fallacies, Why I'm not a Christian?

1364
01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:53,079
He begins it by talking about emotional appeals. He's like,

1365
01:33:53,479 --> 01:33:56,520
the only people who believe this are weaklings. Well that's

1366
01:33:56,520 --> 01:34:00,399
an emotional appeal, that's not an argument anyway. So this

1367
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:02,359
atheist guy says, it's all mean I said.

1368
01:34:02,159 --> 01:34:02,640
Speaker 3: No, wait a minute.

1369
01:34:02,640 --> 01:34:05,840
Speaker 2: So if everything is meaningless, then you're you're fine with

1370
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:09,159
also saying that your life is meaningless. And he says, yeah,

1371
01:34:09,239 --> 01:34:11,880
I don't have a problem with that because I'm bold dog.

1372
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:17,159
I got giant atheist balls. I got giant atheist gonads

1373
01:34:17,199 --> 01:34:20,600
that are not afraid to bite the bullet and say

1374
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:22,479
that my life is meanless and so is yours. You

1375
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:23,079
dun't theist.

1376
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:24,760
Speaker 3: I said, well, no, wait a minute.

1377
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:28,359
Speaker 2: So if if your life is meaningless, then that means

1378
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:31,960
today was meaningless, right this big debate that you just

1379
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:35,560
participate in. He says, yes, yes, I'll bite the bullet.

1380
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:41,239
My atheist gonads are so huge to your tiny, little

1381
01:34:41,359 --> 01:34:45,880
peace sized theis gonads. I will bite the bullet and

1382
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:48,039
say that today was meaning I says, okay, so if

1383
01:34:48,039 --> 01:34:52,359
today was meaningless, then is everything that you're saying now

1384
01:34:52,439 --> 01:35:00,279
the sentence is also meaningless in our conversation. And he

1385
01:35:00,279 --> 01:35:04,760
stopped for a minute and he said, uh, now wait now,

1386
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:06,640
wait a minute, No, wait a minute. Now you're playing

1387
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:12,239
word games here, the eternal fallback of the atheist. Now

1388
01:35:12,239 --> 01:35:14,520
you're playing you're playing some word games here. Now you're

1389
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:22,119
getting shady on me, slim shady on me, with your

1390
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:30,800
with your your theist logics, your word game logics. That

1391
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:37,680
is a very simple explication of the transcendental argument, just

1392
01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:40,319
on a very simple and all I did was let

1393
01:35:40,399 --> 01:35:45,199
that guy hang himself by his stupid arguments and arrogance

1394
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:52,079
as it pertained to the concept of meaning. Now I

1395
01:35:52,159 --> 01:35:56,039
just bring that up is because I've never people at times,

1396
01:35:56,239 --> 01:35:58,960
oh you're you're transit argument. This is very confusing, this

1397
01:35:59,079 --> 01:36:02,680
is complex, and now it's not. That guy just exemplified

1398
01:36:02,720 --> 01:36:07,880
it in the most beautiful exemplary way that I will

1399
01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:15,199
probably never see done that clearly again, the free thinking

1400
01:36:15,279 --> 01:36:16,520
society debater.

1401
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:23,560
Speaker 3: Now we're going to.

1402
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:25,399
Speaker 2: Talk about meaning right here in a little bit too.

1403
01:36:25,439 --> 01:36:27,239
I want to add that too, because this is actually

1404
01:36:27,319 --> 01:36:31,279
something that is a concept that is very presubsitional, it's

1405
01:36:31,399 --> 01:36:37,039
very circular. This is going to show how classical foundationalism

1406
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:42,199
and what oftentimes is the normy classical apologetics is weak

1407
01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:48,199
as f weak af Okay, it's weak sauce classical apologetics

1408
01:36:48,279 --> 01:36:52,000
or weak sauce. Now have classical apologetic arguments converted people,

1409
01:36:52,119 --> 01:36:56,520
Yes they have. Well, just because something converted people or

1410
01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:58,800
had a good effect doesn't mean we should keep using

1411
01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:04,199
bad arguments. And by the way, all of the classical proofs,

1412
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:10,680
whether they are the teleological, cosmological, ontological argument, they can

1413
01:37:10,760 --> 01:37:16,880
all be reformulated and restated as transcendental arguments to make them.

1414
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:16,800
Speaker 3: Plausible and powerful.

1415
01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:21,159
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm not saying that they can't be salvage.

1416
01:37:21,199 --> 01:37:21,720
Speaker 3: They can be.

1417
01:37:23,119 --> 01:37:26,680
Speaker 2: By the way, I have a complete essay critiquing the

1418
01:37:26,720 --> 01:37:30,880
ontological argument, which is a little better than some of

1419
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:32,560
these dumb classical arguments.

1420
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:34,640
Speaker 3: Right, we talked about this.

1421
01:37:34,680 --> 01:37:39,039
Speaker 2: The ontological argument is at least a little It's a

1422
01:37:39,079 --> 01:37:42,279
step in the right direction away from you know, like

1423
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:46,000
basic bitch tier bad arguments, like you know, like Lee

1424
01:37:46,079 --> 01:37:49,079
Strobal level stuff like look at the Apostles.

1425
01:37:49,119 --> 01:37:50,119
Speaker 3: The apostles were.

1426
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:55,920
Speaker 2: A fraidy cat, cowardly weaklings, and then Jesus was resurrected

1427
01:37:55,920 --> 01:37:59,239
and it turned them into empowered, bold people willing to

1428
01:37:59,279 --> 01:38:03,119
die for their faith. Therefore Jesus exists in That's the dumbest,

1429
01:38:03,319 --> 01:38:06,520
weakest argument of all time. Don't ever use that argument

1430
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:09,840
every atheist will rip you to shreds. Who knows anything

1431
01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:14,159
about basic Philosphian logic on that dumb argument, that is

1432
01:38:14,199 --> 01:38:19,600
a testimony that can inspire your faith. I'm not saying

1433
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:21,439
it can't have an inspirational effect.

1434
01:38:21,199 --> 01:38:23,239
Speaker 3: But that's not a good argument. Why is that not

1435
01:38:23,279 --> 01:38:23,880
a good argument?

1436
01:38:24,399 --> 01:38:26,840
Speaker 2: Because there are many people in history who have died

1437
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:31,600
for all kinds of things, Buddhism, atheism, Satanism. Does that

1438
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:35,199
prove that it's true? No, of course, not terrible, terrible,

1439
01:38:35,279 --> 01:38:42,000
dumb argument. Also, you can argue till your face is

1440
01:38:42,079 --> 01:38:45,119
blue against an atheist, and even if you were to

1441
01:38:45,119 --> 01:38:47,920
eventually get them to admit that the resurrection maybe happened,

1442
01:38:48,199 --> 01:38:52,319
So what So what if a resurrection happened, an atheist

1443
01:38:52,319 --> 01:38:54,199
will just say, there's weird things that happen in history.

1444
01:38:54,239 --> 01:38:55,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's anomaly.

1445
01:38:55,199 --> 01:38:58,159
Speaker 2: So what the fact that some guy you know, passed

1446
01:38:58,159 --> 01:39:01,000
out or came back or something like that, maybe he

1447
01:39:01,079 --> 01:39:03,920
was you know, near death experience. Maybe that doesn't prove

1448
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:07,520
that the rest of this Christianity stuff. Yeah, because you're

1449
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:08,840
using a dumb argument.

1450
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:10,079
Speaker 3: Now.

1451
01:39:10,119 --> 01:39:13,520
Speaker 2: I said earlier that Paul went to critique or to

1452
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:15,479
debate the Greeks, and he preats a resurrection. Now you

1453
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,920
might say you're contradicting yourself, Jay, because earlier you said

1454
01:39:19,079 --> 01:39:25,520
in Acts seventeen, Paul didn't engage in advanced philosophic argumentation

1455
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:26,079
with the Greeks.

1456
01:39:26,079 --> 01:39:28,680
Speaker 3: He just preachs a resurrection. No, No, he.

1457
01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:34,479
Speaker 2: Did do apologetics. Paul does pre suppositional apologetics. Paul says

1458
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:36,640
the wisdom of this world is foolishness, because it is.

1459
01:39:38,359 --> 01:39:41,960
Paul says that your God is no God. Paul says

1460
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:44,800
that you must repent. This is what we tell the atheists,

1461
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:45,760
the atheists.

1462
01:39:45,399 --> 01:39:46,399
Speaker 3: Must change his mind.

1463
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:49,840
Speaker 2: He must change his worldview because, as Saint Peter says,

1464
01:39:50,399 --> 01:39:54,640
Christ has given us a certainty of his resurrection. It's

1465
01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:57,319
not in doubt. It's not probabilistic. There's not an eighty

1466
01:39:57,359 --> 01:39:59,760
eight percent chance that Christianity's true and Jesus rose from

1467
01:39:59,760 --> 01:40:00,000
the day.

1468
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:02,479
Speaker 3: Does that? Is that the way God speaks in scripture?

1469
01:40:03,640 --> 01:40:06,760
Speaker 2: No, God says my word is certain, everything I say

1470
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:10,279
is one true, and the word of man is what's

1471
01:40:10,319 --> 01:40:15,680
in doubt. So we have to reorient our starting points.

1472
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:18,640
Our assumptions are presubsitions, and that's what we're going to

1473
01:40:18,720 --> 01:40:19,239
talk about.

1474
01:40:20,239 --> 01:40:21,960
Speaker 3: Revelation revealed.

1475
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:25,880
Speaker 2: We're not the Book of Revelation, but the concept of

1476
01:40:26,359 --> 01:40:34,079
revelation revealed authority as our starting point as theists, as

1477
01:40:34,199 --> 01:40:38,039
Orthodox and when we do that, then we begin to

1478
01:40:38,119 --> 01:40:40,560
understand that creation, that.

1479
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:44,239
Speaker 3: Those are revealed doctrines.

1480
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:49,479
Speaker 2: You see, it's no, it's not by accident. That it's

1481
01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:56,960
not chance that atheists and pagans and all the other

1482
01:40:56,960 --> 01:41:00,479
creepo weirdos out there, it's not. It's not accidental that

1483
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:05,800
they'd never come to believe in creation. No, they always

1484
01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:13,640
deny it. Why is that because they believe in philosophic

1485
01:41:13,840 --> 01:41:18,760
schemes and systems or pagan religious schemes and systems, and

1486
01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:23,720
so they don't believe in the concept of special revealed revelation.

1487
01:41:24,039 --> 01:41:26,720
That's one another one of the key factors of our worldview.

1488
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:31,239
We do believe that, so in our conception, creation is

1489
01:41:31,279 --> 01:41:36,399
a unique revealed doctrine. Did you catch me there? See,

1490
01:41:36,399 --> 01:41:39,079
we're not Tomass. We don't believe that you reason back

1491
01:41:39,119 --> 01:41:42,600
to a generic first cause. You can talk about a

1492
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:44,640
first cause and you can say that it's God.

1493
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:45,479
Speaker 3: Yes, that's fine.

1494
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:48,920
Speaker 2: Church fathers do that at times, but they don't teach

1495
01:41:49,000 --> 01:41:51,479
that you can reason back and come to the conclusion

1496
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:56,960
that there was just some special creative act that God

1497
01:41:57,000 --> 01:42:01,800
created ex nilo. That's revealed. That's why Hebrews says, by

1498
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:05,079
faith we believe that the worlds were created by the

1499
01:42:05,079 --> 01:42:09,000
command of God. Now, when he says that, and when

1500
01:42:09,159 --> 01:42:12,279
Hebrews eleven talks about the chapter faith in Abraham, by

1501
01:42:12,359 --> 01:42:15,880
faith went out, a lot of people have this mistaken

1502
01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:21,319
view that that means that it was all done against reason. Okay,

1503
01:42:21,439 --> 01:42:25,119
this is the Pietist error, the Pietist heresy. The Church

1504
01:42:25,159 --> 01:42:27,920
fathers do not teach Pietism. Now some of them do,

1505
01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:32,159
but guess what. Tertullian is not a saint, He's not Orthodox.

1506
01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:36,119
Tertullian taught that there is a vast divide between faith

1507
01:42:36,159 --> 01:42:39,039
and reason, and never the twain shall meet.

1508
01:42:39,279 --> 01:42:42,199
Speaker 3: For Tertullian, Jerusalem.

1509
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:50,159
Speaker 2: Represents faith, Greece represents reason. They are eternal enemies. Tertullian's

1510
01:42:50,159 --> 01:42:55,840
a heretic. Okay, Now he's useful in his early Patristic testimony.

1511
01:42:56,079 --> 01:42:59,000
But we don't go to Tertullian to try to devise

1512
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:06,520
what the proper conception of you know, philosophy and science

1513
01:43:06,640 --> 01:43:12,159
and worldview is. Okay, but many people who mean, well,

1514
01:43:13,039 --> 01:43:21,920
you know, will come to to believe that. Well, science

1515
01:43:22,039 --> 01:43:26,640
and reason, logic, that's the domain over there of the unbeliever.

1516
01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:28,479
That's what they do.

1517
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:30,640
Speaker 3: They do that stuff. We believe.

1518
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:32,720
Speaker 2: Faith we have we got we got our faith over here.

1519
01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:33,560
Speaker 3: We just take a leap.

1520
01:43:35,199 --> 01:43:36,880
Speaker 2: Now, what's the problem with this, Well, first of all,

1521
01:43:37,560 --> 01:43:40,439
the tens of thousands of pages of the writings of

1522
01:43:40,479 --> 01:43:45,920
the Church Fathers presuppose that the usage of logic and

1523
01:43:46,000 --> 01:43:49,399
argumentation is sufficient to refute heretics, to show them to

1524
01:43:49,399 --> 01:43:53,560
be inconsistent. The entire discourse of a thousand years of

1525
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:58,279
Church Fathers presupposes that it is possible to refute heresies

1526
01:43:58,399 --> 01:44:00,840
so that people can know which which ones are false,

1527
01:44:00,880 --> 01:44:03,920
in which ones to avoid. Why would Saint Gregor I

1528
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:08,279
Nissa write a thousand page book going into the nth

1529
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:14,439
degree dissecting Unomius if it was not possible to utilize

1530
01:44:14,439 --> 01:44:19,479
logic and logical principles to refute heretics. This is obvious,

1531
01:44:20,239 --> 01:44:23,359
This is basic. I shouldn't have to explain this to

1532
01:44:23,479 --> 01:44:25,359
other Christians and Orthodox people.

1533
01:44:25,359 --> 01:44:26,720
Speaker 3: It should be obvious to you.

1534
01:44:27,319 --> 01:44:31,000
Speaker 2: How can Paul write epistles that use logic and argumentation?

1535
01:44:31,720 --> 01:44:31,880
Speaker 4: Right?

1536
01:44:31,920 --> 01:44:33,439
Speaker 3: When Paul talks about heresies.

1537
01:44:33,439 --> 01:44:35,680
Speaker 2: When Paul talks about the errors of the Judaizers, When

1538
01:44:35,680 --> 01:44:38,600
Paul talks about the errors of the Greeks, he's using

1539
01:44:39,119 --> 01:44:43,680
logical principles to point out contradictions, to point out mistakes,

1540
01:44:43,760 --> 01:44:46,239
to point out how you shouldn't believe that.

1541
01:44:46,239 --> 01:44:48,840
Speaker 3: That's all part and parcel of logic. Logic is a

1542
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:50,119
tool being used. There.

1543
01:44:51,039 --> 01:44:55,600
Speaker 2: Even Saint Gregory Palomas himself, who has basically little to

1544
01:44:55,640 --> 01:44:58,239
no use for Greek philosophy, which is fine because he

1545
01:44:58,279 --> 01:45:02,399
says it's mostly demonic. He says, but even still, when

1546
01:45:02,439 --> 01:45:08,960
I argue my theological positions, I'm still using a logical process. Obviously,

1547
01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:14,319
come on, this is not even debatable. So the kind

1548
01:45:14,319 --> 01:45:20,239
of throwaway lines that maybe sincere people have or use, like, well,

1549
01:45:20,279 --> 01:45:22,439
we believe in faith, we don't believe in reason. Oh,

1550
01:45:22,479 --> 01:45:26,279
you're using logic that this is what pietists. If you

1551
01:45:26,359 --> 01:45:29,119
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shop at my website and get signed copies there. Thank you, dude.

1568
01:46:21,399 --> 01:46:23,600
This is what spiritual virtue signalers do, and this is

1569
01:46:23,600 --> 01:46:25,199
what sometimes well meaning people do.

1570
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:26,560
Speaker 3: But they're wrong.

1571
01:46:27,199 --> 01:46:27,880
Speaker 2: They're all wrong.

1572
01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:34,399
Speaker 3: They're completely wrong. They are.

1573
01:46:36,000 --> 01:46:38,840
Speaker 2: Completely against everything in.

1574
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:39,600
Speaker 3: The Church Fathers.

1575
01:46:42,119 --> 01:46:44,680
Speaker 2: I mean, if you read on the Orthodox Faith, Saint

1576
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:48,239
John Damascus and his Fount of Knowledge, he goes through Plato,

1577
01:46:48,319 --> 01:46:50,359
he goes through Aristotle, he goes through the writings to

1578
01:46:50,399 --> 01:46:52,119
the Church Fathers prior to him, because he's writing in

1579
01:46:52,399 --> 01:46:58,840
the eighth century, and it's a vast trove of good

1580
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:02,840
and bad in the Classics and the Fathers in logic

1581
01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:05,520
and he uses a transcendental argument at the beginning of

1582
01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:09,359
found knowledge. Okay, that's why I'm doing this right, because

1583
01:47:10,079 --> 01:47:12,520
I know that I'm not the only person to do this.

1584
01:47:12,760 --> 01:47:14,640
Speaker 3: He does it. I know what I'm talking about.

1585
01:47:16,359 --> 01:47:19,239
Speaker 2: So you're doing yourself a disservice. Here is the point

1586
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:23,640
when you approach apologetics from the vantage point of, on

1587
01:47:23,680 --> 01:47:26,800
the one hand, the era of Pietism, that you shouldn't

1588
01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:27,079
do it.

1589
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:30,600
Speaker 3: Don't. Oh well, now wait a minute, church fathers do it.

1590
01:47:30,840 --> 01:47:32,279
They argue with atheists.

1591
01:47:32,479 --> 01:47:34,720
Speaker 2: I mean, we just did a talk on sant Anthonatius

1592
01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:39,720
against the Heathen. He critiques Heathenism there as atheistic. He

1593
01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:42,319
does a presuppositional critique of Heathenism, and he shows how

1594
01:47:42,640 --> 01:47:47,760
many Gods is self refuting and contradictory. That's a presubositional

1595
01:47:48,279 --> 01:47:54,079
system wide coherence theory critique. And against the Heathen I

1596
01:47:54,119 --> 01:47:59,560
did a whole talk on it. You see what I

1597
01:47:59,600 --> 01:48:02,239
am doing is what they do. I'm doing the exact

1598
01:48:02,239 --> 01:48:05,760
same things that they did. And when the people say

1599
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:08,000
you don't need to do that, don't do apologetics. That's

1600
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:11,359
what protests do, That's what Catholics do. They're wrong, they're

1601
01:48:11,359 --> 01:48:12,359
completely wrong.

1602
01:48:12,520 --> 01:48:13,039
Speaker 3: Most of the time.

1603
01:48:13,039 --> 01:48:19,960
Speaker 2: They're acumenus anyway, Let's say that, and they're counting on

1604
01:48:20,039 --> 01:48:23,079
you being ignorant and you not looking to see what

1605
01:48:23,119 --> 01:48:28,720
the church brothers actually teach. Let's read some of these

1606
01:48:28,840 --> 01:48:31,800
super chats before we move into the more philosophical section

1607
01:48:31,960 --> 01:48:34,960
out of the theology into stuff that I was talking

1608
01:48:34,960 --> 01:48:35,560
about before.

1609
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:42,479
Speaker 3: Would you ever debate Walter Block?

1610
01:48:42,600 --> 01:48:43,520
Speaker 2: Dan Man? Two dollars?

1611
01:48:43,560 --> 01:48:44,319
Speaker 3: Thank you Dan for that.

1612
01:48:44,840 --> 01:48:49,000
Speaker 2: Of course, I'll debate anybody who has a significant name,

1613
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:52,640
but there's no way that do whatever. Debate me again?

1614
01:48:53,199 --> 01:48:55,279
The people who always talk about the big name people.

1615
01:48:55,319 --> 01:48:58,199
Why want you debate Sam Harris? Why I want you

1616
01:48:58,199 --> 01:49:01,159
to debate Stefan muling you. I will debate any of them.

1617
01:49:01,159 --> 01:49:05,039
They will not debate me. First of all, they probably

1618
01:49:05,039 --> 01:49:06,680
haven't heard of it. I know Steffan Mollin who's heard

1619
01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:07,720
of me, but he's not going.

1620
01:49:07,600 --> 01:49:09,079
Speaker 3: To debate me because there's no incentive.

1621
01:49:09,199 --> 01:49:12,760
Speaker 2: No popular person is going to debate a lesser known person.

1622
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:16,560
There's no incentive. Why would they. They have everything to

1623
01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:20,079
lose by doing the debate and nothing to gain. What

1624
01:49:20,079 --> 01:49:22,319
are they gained by debating some guy with you know,

1625
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:23,960
thirty thousand followers?

1626
01:49:24,039 --> 01:49:27,119
Speaker 3: On YouTube in a book on Hollywood.

1627
01:49:27,199 --> 01:49:30,079
Speaker 2: Right from their advantage point, it's like, what, you know, what,

1628
01:49:30,279 --> 01:49:32,560
why would I debate this guy when I can go

1629
01:49:32,640 --> 01:49:35,880
debate you know, Jordan Peterson or whoever and get a

1630
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:37,439
million people watching it.

1631
01:49:38,560 --> 01:49:40,000
Speaker 3: There's no incentive to debate me.

1632
01:49:41,039 --> 01:49:43,239
Speaker 2: Now, maybe in ten years if I grow my channel

1633
01:49:43,279 --> 01:49:47,640
to you know, if I'm not you know, destroyed from

1634
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:51,319
Internet or something, if at the Internet and all this

1635
01:49:51,359 --> 01:49:53,720
is still around or whatever, the world hasn't collapsed into

1636
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:57,199
mad Max or something, maybe then big name people would debate.

1637
01:49:57,640 --> 01:50:01,000
Probably not by the way, but of course I would

1638
01:50:01,039 --> 01:50:02,640
debate any these people, but they're not going to debate me.

1639
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:09,359
But okay, So Sylvia, Sylvain Duran. What happened to Pharrell?

1640
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:13,319
Doctor Farrell we all know? Of course, at one time

1641
01:50:13,439 --> 01:50:19,199
wrote some pretty powerful Orthodox books such as Free Choice

1642
01:50:19,199 --> 01:50:23,000
in Maximus Confessor Great Book and God Who's from Drialectic

1643
01:50:23,239 --> 01:50:29,039
Great four part series, and eventually decided that he no

1644
01:50:29,119 --> 01:50:33,920
longer believed orthodoxy. So he decided that the conception of

1645
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:36,119
God in the Old Testament does not comport with the

1646
01:50:36,119 --> 01:50:40,520
God of the New Testament. That's in his book on Yahweh.

1647
01:50:40,520 --> 01:50:44,640
With that, Scott de Han guy, and I take it

1648
01:50:44,680 --> 01:50:50,159
doctor Farrell believes in some aspect of Platonism or something

1649
01:50:50,159 --> 01:50:57,960
to that effect. So that is what doctor Ferrel believes. However,

1650
01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:03,199
we still think his Orthodox books are good because they

1651
01:51:03,199 --> 01:51:09,560
are Eric Jule five dollars any comments on the Eastern Dow.

1652
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:11,000
I know Father Rose covers us.

1653
01:51:11,119 --> 01:51:11,439
Speaker 4: You know what.

1654
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:12,119
Speaker 3: I was at.

1655
01:51:15,199 --> 01:51:17,199
Speaker 2: An Orthodox book store the other day and I was like,

1656
01:51:17,319 --> 01:51:19,640
almost gonna buy it, and then I thought, you know what,

1657
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:22,039
I'm not going to. This bookstore was under the Greeks,

1658
01:51:22,479 --> 01:51:23,640
so I was like, I'm not going to give them

1659
01:51:23,680 --> 01:51:28,000
any money. So yeah, I will eventually get to that book, Eric,

1660
01:51:28,039 --> 01:51:33,760
I promise you it will also finish Genesis, Creation and

1661
01:51:33,840 --> 01:51:38,399
Early Man by Father Rose. But yeah, it's just so

1662
01:51:38,479 --> 01:51:42,159
much stuff going and haven't got it. Haven't got today yet.

1663
01:51:42,159 --> 01:51:44,479
By the way, I did get a message from the

1664
01:51:44,479 --> 01:51:50,399
publisher and the printer the book will be I'm supposed

1665
01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:54,680
to get my book by the twelfth or thirteenth, fourteenth

1666
01:51:54,680 --> 01:52:02,760
maybe so hopefully by December thirteenth or fourteenth, be able

1667
01:52:02,760 --> 01:52:06,000
to start selling and shipping out as Kirk Calaywood two.

1668
01:52:10,479 --> 01:52:14,319
But as it refers to the two basically, yes, the

1669
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:17,880
idea what I was talking about earlier with looking for

1670
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:19,319
all encompassing principles.

1671
01:52:21,199 --> 01:52:22,800
Speaker 3: Yes, that's what the.

1672
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:26,560
Speaker 2: Religions are seeking for the world. Religions, they're all doing

1673
01:52:26,600 --> 01:52:29,960
the same thing. They're all oftentimes not always, but at

1674
01:52:30,239 --> 01:52:35,039
points starting to realize, you know, by philosophic reflection, how

1675
01:52:35,039 --> 01:52:37,560
do we relate all things to one another? How do

1676
01:52:37,640 --> 01:52:40,960
we make sensible connection between, for example, things in the

1677
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:43,960
past and things in the present and things in the future.

1678
01:52:44,279 --> 01:52:50,520
What meaningful connector connects those things? In other words, we

1679
01:52:50,600 --> 01:52:56,279
assume that events that happened in our past inform our

1680
01:52:56,359 --> 01:53:00,640
understanding of the presence, and we assume that that will

1681
01:53:00,680 --> 01:53:03,479
continue into the future. But on what basis do we

1682
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:09,600
actually know that there is such a meaningful connection between

1683
01:53:09,720 --> 01:53:11,920
meaning in the past and the present in the future.

1684
01:53:12,640 --> 01:53:15,439
This is a philosophic question, right, It's a question of

1685
01:53:15,479 --> 01:53:20,359
epistemology and metaphysics. It's a question that we presuppose when

1686
01:53:20,399 --> 01:53:22,840
we dialogue and debate and reason about the world. We

1687
01:53:22,960 --> 01:53:28,640
just assume that our past impressions and reflections and experiences

1688
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:34,000
were meaningful and that they connect meaningfully to our present understanding.

1689
01:53:35,720 --> 01:53:37,720
But we cannot empirically justify that.

1690
01:53:38,439 --> 01:53:39,640
Speaker 3: Of course, we can't. How could you?

1691
01:53:41,600 --> 01:53:44,960
Speaker 2: By its very nature, it's not empirically verifiable, And no

1692
01:53:45,239 --> 01:53:48,039
recording the past does not solve the dilemma, just moves

1693
01:53:48,039 --> 01:53:50,119
the problem back a stead This is what the naive

1694
01:53:50,119 --> 01:53:53,359
empiricists will always just say, Well, just watch a tape recorder,

1695
01:53:54,520 --> 01:53:57,279
No dummy, that's that just moves a problem back astute.

1696
01:53:59,560 --> 01:54:00,279
Speaker 3: But yes, so.

1697
01:54:00,319 --> 01:54:05,359
Speaker 2: The Eastern philosophies when they talk about the dow are

1698
01:54:05,439 --> 01:54:10,199
essentially looking for the logos. They're looking for the meaningful connector,

1699
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:14,479
the logic behind things, the meaning behind things, the logoi

1700
01:54:15,880 --> 01:54:19,399
of the world, the logic of things, the meaning of things,

1701
01:54:19,399 --> 01:54:22,359
the essence of things, the archetypes of things, the patterns

1702
01:54:22,399 --> 01:54:28,119
of things. And that's not Carl Jung's archetypes totally different.

1703
01:54:28,279 --> 01:54:32,560
So no Jordan Peterson here, no Jonathan Pago here.

1704
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:46,680
Speaker 3: Uh, where are we at? Lawrence Valen nag five dollars?

1705
01:54:46,720 --> 01:54:48,760
Speaker 2: How can one told between having a personal raceship with

1706
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:55,079
God and having delusion delusion about it? Ooh, that's a

1707
01:54:55,079 --> 01:55:02,960
good question. Yes, now that's a great question. Now I

1708
01:55:02,960 --> 01:55:05,800
would say two things on this. The first is, yes,

1709
01:55:05,880 --> 01:55:07,800
there is such a thing. As I just pulled up

1710
01:55:07,840 --> 01:55:12,520
this article, let me find it again here. I think

1711
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:14,239
I shared it on Twitter. I can just pull it

1712
01:55:14,239 --> 01:55:20,239
off there. So you know, if you get into orthodox

1713
01:55:20,279 --> 01:55:24,680
you'll hear this concept of prelst right. So essentially you're

1714
01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:27,399
asking a question that relates to prelst, which is the

1715
01:55:27,479 --> 01:55:28,079
idea of.

1716
01:55:29,399 --> 01:55:30,039
Speaker 3: How do I know?

1717
01:55:31,680 --> 01:55:41,199
Speaker 2: I'll put this in the the description below here, I'll

1718
01:55:41,199 --> 01:55:43,840
put this in the links so you can link this

1719
01:55:47,039 --> 01:55:48,159
from Orthodox England.

1720
01:55:48,680 --> 01:55:52,319
Speaker 3: How do you know that you know?

1721
01:55:53,119 --> 01:55:59,520
Speaker 2: How do you know? I'm just adding the link here

1722
01:55:59,560 --> 01:56:01,119
real quick. I think if I don't add the links

1723
01:56:01,159 --> 01:56:05,960
while i'm doing it, I'll forget. So let's do the

1724
01:56:06,079 --> 01:56:11,279
pre last link. So preless is just delusion. It's illusion, right,

1725
01:56:11,319 --> 01:56:15,920
spiritual delusion. And most of the time it relates to

1726
01:56:16,399 --> 01:56:21,439
people who convert or come to Christ, come to Orthodoxy, whatever,

1727
01:56:22,199 --> 01:56:26,399
But it could apply outside of Orthodoxy because people convert

1728
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:32,359
sincerely and they don't know about Orthodoxy, right. I didn't

1729
01:56:32,359 --> 01:56:35,560
know about Orthodoxy for a long time, but I sincerely

1730
01:56:35,600 --> 01:56:38,079
believed in Christ and I believed the Bible, but I

1731
01:56:38,079 --> 01:56:46,119
didn't know what Orthodoxy was. So that is a good

1732
01:56:46,199 --> 01:56:48,640
little basic essay on that question of just kind of

1733
01:56:48,680 --> 01:56:52,720
like how people have a tendency to become prideful, and

1734
01:56:52,760 --> 01:56:57,720
they'll get very super spiritual and self righteous. And it's

1735
01:56:57,960 --> 01:57:00,800
something that everybody goes through. Every new goes through this.

1736
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:04,880
Everybody does this, and it's just something that you have to.

1737
01:57:06,600 --> 01:57:07,159
Speaker 3: Live through.

1738
01:57:07,359 --> 01:57:12,680
Speaker 2: Right now, we shouldn't ever lose our zeal, but everybody

1739
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:17,119
does go through, you know, stages of pride and arrogance

1740
01:57:17,119 --> 01:57:20,000
and being humbled. This is part of the Christian experience.

1741
01:57:20,399 --> 01:57:23,800
This is why Paul says, don't ordain a new convert

1742
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:27,720
because they're puffed up, right. Paul tells Timothy this, and

1743
01:57:27,760 --> 01:57:29,479
this is why many.

1744
01:57:29,359 --> 01:57:32,760
Speaker 3: People make the mistake. I would have made the mistake.

1745
01:57:32,439 --> 01:57:34,680
Speaker 2: If I had become Orthodox ten years ago. Or they

1746
01:57:34,680 --> 01:57:38,600
start trying to teach stuff as a new convert. They

1747
01:57:38,640 --> 01:57:42,199
don't know what they're talking about. And they'll talk about

1748
01:57:42,279 --> 01:57:45,359
logoi and stuff and archetypes and Carl Young and they

1749
01:57:45,359 --> 01:57:52,880
don't know what they're talking about. But you have to,

1750
01:57:53,000 --> 01:57:55,640
especially if you're coming from a like a Protestant Church

1751
01:57:56,279 --> 01:57:59,319
or Roman Catholicism. It takes a long time to have

1752
01:57:59,439 --> 01:58:05,600
a lot of the Western legal assumptions kind of filtered

1753
01:58:05,640 --> 01:58:07,520
out of you. You have to kind of grow out

1754
01:58:07,520 --> 01:58:10,399
of that stuff, and a lot of people said that

1755
01:58:10,840 --> 01:58:12,279
a long time ago, and I was like, I don't know,

1756
01:58:12,279 --> 01:58:12,960
what are you talking about?

1757
01:58:13,079 --> 01:58:14,000
Speaker 3: Like what's wrong with you?

1758
01:58:14,039 --> 01:58:14,159
Speaker 6: Know?

1759
01:58:16,199 --> 01:58:18,279
Speaker 2: But it's just a process that we all go through

1760
01:58:18,439 --> 01:58:21,920
and it is real. So part of what you're asking

1761
01:58:22,000 --> 01:58:25,319
in this question Lawrence is personal and mystical. So I

1762
01:58:25,359 --> 01:58:28,359
can't fully give you like a perfect explanation of how

1763
01:58:28,399 --> 01:58:32,279
you will know whether or not you are in a

1764
01:58:32,319 --> 01:58:35,000
relationship with God or whether or not you're under prelest

1765
01:58:35,079 --> 01:58:42,359
or delusion, but you will know. Also, the Fathers tell

1766
01:58:42,439 --> 01:58:46,159
us that we don't go by This is another mistake

1767
01:58:46,199 --> 01:58:49,840
that people make early on, and it's described many times

1768
01:58:49,840 --> 01:58:54,079
in the Philocalia under prelst as well, which is being

1769
01:58:55,239 --> 01:58:59,680
falling into the trap of following dreams and mystical experiences. Now,

1770
01:58:59,720 --> 01:59:02,680
they're can be dreams of mystical experiences from God. But

1771
01:59:02,960 --> 01:59:05,239
the reason most of the Fathers warn about that stuff

1772
01:59:05,640 --> 01:59:08,479
is because it can easily lead to prelist and delusion.

1773
01:59:08,560 --> 01:59:10,560
You will think that you are something you're not. So

1774
01:59:11,560 --> 01:59:15,640
if we're following mystical feelings and following around what we

1775
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:18,239
think are miracles and miraculous experiences, I'm not saying there

1776
01:59:18,239 --> 01:59:20,840
aren't miracles I'm just saying you have to beware of

1777
01:59:21,000 --> 01:59:25,199
not falling for the experience itself at the expense of

1778
01:59:26,479 --> 01:59:31,079
the you know, continual seeking and worshping of God. So

1779
01:59:31,119 --> 01:59:33,960
there's all kinds of mistakes like this that we all

1780
01:59:34,000 --> 01:59:36,119
will We all will make these mistakes, but we just

1781
01:59:36,159 --> 01:59:40,720
have to quit doing it right. So it's a lifelong battle.

1782
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:42,199
In other words, it's not something that you're going to

1783
01:59:42,319 --> 01:59:46,439
like suddenly cure overnight or something. But another reason that

1784
01:59:46,479 --> 01:59:49,640
we know, way that we know is to know to

1785
01:59:49,720 --> 01:59:51,840
know the dogmas right. So there's you can err on

1786
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:54,720
the side of Pietism and think that, oh, I don't

1787
01:59:54,800 --> 01:59:57,840
do dogmas because that's like you know what Pharisees do,

1788
01:59:58,359 --> 02:00:00,760
and I'm just going to be a Pietist. That's an error,

1789
02:00:00,840 --> 02:00:04,439
that's a delusion. There's a reason for dogma, but there's

1790
02:00:04,479 --> 02:00:08,199
also a reason for piety and worship. You gotta have both.

1791
02:00:09,119 --> 02:00:09,760
Speaker 3: You gotta have.

1792
02:00:11,840 --> 02:00:13,960
Speaker 2: Uh, you gotta have the lamp and the flame and

1793
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:16,760
the oil, right, like Jesus says in the Parallel of

1794
02:00:16,800 --> 02:00:19,880
the Virgins, Like if you just have the lamp, right, like, oh,

1795
02:00:19,880 --> 02:00:22,439
I've got the doctrines here, but you don't have the

1796
02:00:22,479 --> 02:00:23,319
love and the zeal.

1797
02:00:23,600 --> 02:00:25,960
Speaker 3: And you don't have the oil, right, you.

1798
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:29,960
Speaker 2: Can't have the zeal without knowledge, like Pulses Paul says,

1799
02:00:29,960 --> 02:00:32,199
when I was at Pharisee, I had zeal without knowledge.

1800
02:00:32,239 --> 02:00:33,680
I didn't know what I was doing. I was an idiot,

1801
02:00:34,079 --> 02:00:37,239
but I was zealous. So it requires both. We want

1802
02:00:37,239 --> 02:00:42,560
to strive both for uh correct doctrine and for correct living,

1803
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:49,680
correct zeal. This is why we have dogmas. Right, Dogmas

1804
02:00:50,319 --> 02:00:53,239
let us know the limits and the boundaries. Dogmas don't

1805
02:00:53,439 --> 02:00:56,840
define God per se, like God is an experiment or

1806
02:00:57,159 --> 02:01:00,880
a chemical reaction formula or something. But they do give

1807
02:01:00,960 --> 02:01:08,119
us boundaries and guidelines. So God is not enclosed within

1808
02:01:08,359 --> 02:01:12,920
the niceing creed. Right, He's not bound by being trapped

1809
02:01:12,920 --> 02:01:15,359
in some creed or something, but rather the niceing Creed

1810
02:01:15,520 --> 02:01:20,239
is a list of boundaries and a scope by which

1811
02:01:20,359 --> 02:01:25,640
we can understand the basics of the Church. So, on

1812
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:29,199
one hand, I can't answer for you specifically, because you

1813
02:01:29,239 --> 02:01:32,960
are you, and your experience of God is existential, It

1814
02:01:33,039 --> 02:01:37,600
is personal, and if you go down the route of

1815
02:01:37,640 --> 02:01:41,239
truly seeking God, Jesus says, I know mine and mine, mine,

1816
02:01:41,359 --> 02:01:45,000
mine are the line and mine know me. Right, my

1817
02:01:45,079 --> 02:01:48,720
sheep know me, and they hear my voice, you will

1818
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:52,239
be led into truth. Right, Jesus promises the spirit to

1819
02:01:52,319 --> 02:01:56,720
lead us into truth. Then, obviously, in the context of

1820
02:01:56,760 --> 02:01:59,439
the church, is not like a Protestant type thing where

1821
02:01:59,439 --> 02:02:00,640
it's like, well, it's just me and the.

1822
02:02:00,560 --> 02:02:02,560
Speaker 3: Spirit and I come up with whatever I want.

1823
02:02:04,920 --> 02:02:07,720
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's the best I could answer on that question,

1824
02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:12,439
because I cannot speak of.

1825
02:02:12,399 --> 02:02:13,720
Speaker 3: Your personal experience.

1826
02:02:17,359 --> 02:02:20,560
Speaker 2: But I would say that most of the time, and

1827
02:02:20,600 --> 02:02:23,159
what many of the Fathers would say is that if

1828
02:02:23,199 --> 02:02:28,560
you have delusion, delusion leads to error and arrogance. Right,

1829
02:02:28,640 --> 02:02:32,079
So most of the time, real spiritual experiences are distinguished

1830
02:02:32,119 --> 02:02:37,039
from fake ones by whether they produce humility or not. So,

1831
02:02:37,159 --> 02:02:40,880
for example, if somebody claims that they're having all these

1832
02:02:41,039 --> 02:02:45,680
maybe spiritual experiences or something, and then they come away

1833
02:02:45,680 --> 02:02:48,600
from these experiences like super prideful, like for example, a

1834
02:02:48,600 --> 02:02:51,640
lot of people who trip acid, they will think that

1835
02:02:51,680 --> 02:02:54,119
they've solved the world and that they've seen insight into

1836
02:02:54,119 --> 02:02:57,399
all this, and they just rehash ancient paganism. Those are delusions,

1837
02:02:57,439 --> 02:03:01,920
Those are demonic delusion experiences. They are not achieving real enlightenment.

1838
02:03:02,359 --> 02:03:05,760
They might see some aspect of you know, metaphysics or

1839
02:03:05,760 --> 02:03:08,640
the spiritual realm. But so what the demons know the

1840
02:03:08,680 --> 02:03:12,439
spiritual realm? Right? So it's like James says, the demons

1841
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:15,000
no doctrines, but they don't have love. They don't love God.

1842
02:03:15,199 --> 02:03:16,560
So what does it matter if you know all the

1843
02:03:16,560 --> 02:03:19,560
doctrines but you don't love God? Right, Same with pharisees.

1844
02:03:21,279 --> 02:03:22,119
Speaker 3: So in the same.

1845
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:29,479
Speaker 2: Way, true spiritual experiences produce a change and they produce humility.

1846
02:03:30,760 --> 02:03:38,600
False ones produce delusion and arrogance. A one, two, three, B, four,

1847
02:03:38,720 --> 02:03:41,720
five six. What is the relationship between dogmen and reason?

1848
02:03:42,039 --> 02:03:44,800
Great question, that's kind of what we've we've been sort

1849
02:03:44,800 --> 02:03:48,920
of sketching out on the outlines here. There's not a

1850
02:03:48,960 --> 02:03:51,520
real simple question to this because, on the one hand,

1851
02:03:51,640 --> 02:03:58,000
reason is the domain of human discourse, human differentiation. It's

1852
02:03:58,000 --> 02:04:00,600
a human faculty. This is another reason why we can't

1853
02:04:00,640 --> 02:04:05,000
say reason is evil. The reason is the gift of God. Logic, reason,

1854
02:04:05,000 --> 02:04:08,079
these are tools that God gave. They're not inherently bad,

1855
02:04:08,119 --> 02:04:11,000
they're not inherently evil, they're not something that we should

1856
02:04:11,079 --> 02:04:18,319
cast away. At the same time, we can't exalt reason

1857
02:04:19,079 --> 02:04:22,119
to being a goddess like the French revolutionaries did, right

1858
02:04:22,119 --> 02:04:27,640
they've viewed reason as a goddess. So when we understand

1859
02:04:28,199 --> 02:04:31,640
putting reason and logic in their proper place. Right in

1860
02:04:31,680 --> 02:04:35,720
the Orthodox view, reason is fine about reasoning about the world,

1861
02:04:35,760 --> 02:04:39,319
reasoning about math, logic. We all engage in a reason.

1862
02:04:39,399 --> 02:04:42,520
When we read scripture, we're utilizing reason. I was just

1863
02:04:42,600 --> 02:04:44,279
making the argument a minute ago about that when the

1864
02:04:44,359 --> 02:04:47,079
church fathers argue with heretics, they're utilizing logic and reason

1865
02:04:47,159 --> 02:04:51,119
throughout the process. It's presupposed, it's assumed. It's assumed. Right,

1866
02:04:51,159 --> 02:04:54,640
when you're arguing that the heretics contradict themselves, you're assuming

1867
02:04:54,720 --> 02:04:55,840
that you shouldn't contradict.

1868
02:04:57,239 --> 02:04:58,640
Speaker 3: It's just obvious.

1869
02:05:00,359 --> 02:05:06,039
Speaker 2: So reason is everywhere in this process. However, we don't

1870
02:05:06,039 --> 02:05:09,800
say that the dogmas of the faith are irrational, right,

1871
02:05:10,000 --> 02:05:13,560
That would be kind of foolish. We say they are

1872
02:05:13,640 --> 02:05:17,720
supra rational. So, for example, we wouldn't say that we're

1873
02:05:17,720 --> 02:05:24,079
a platonist because we don't collapse logic and number theory

1874
02:05:24,520 --> 02:05:27,760
into God to the extent that we think that God

1875
02:05:27,960 --> 02:05:32,359
is logic. Right, this is what some Protestant apologists do.

1876
02:05:34,279 --> 02:05:38,159
They will try to equate logos and logic. By the way,

1877
02:05:38,199 --> 02:05:39,880
I kind of think e Michael Jones does this too,

1878
02:05:39,960 --> 02:05:44,920
like he equates human logic with the logos Jesus.

1879
02:05:45,880 --> 02:05:47,600
Speaker 3: That's not the same thing. They don't