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Right now, are you feeling lucky? 55 00:01:59.040 --> 00:01:59.239 Nope? 56 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:02.319 Necessary for eighty plus nisy. 57 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.759 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 58 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:18.879 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 59 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:26.240 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 60 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:29.919 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 61 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:34.240 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 62 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:47.879 host journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening. 63 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:52.800 Three eight year old boys vanished from their West Memphis 64 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:57.879 neighborhood one sunny afternoon. A day later, their mangled, nude 65 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:03.039 bodies are found in a drainage ditch. Police and prosecutors 66 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:07.479 believe the killings are related to the occult. Three teens 67 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:12.280 are arrested. One month later, Damien Ecckles, Jason Baldwin, and 68 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:17.159 Jesse mus Kelly Junior are convicted. Award winning journalist George 69 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:20.479 Jared takes readers inside one of the most famous criminal 70 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:25.199 cases in US legal history, which is in West Memphis. 71 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:29.240 Gives a comprehensive insider's view into the West Memphis three case. 72 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.120 No author, documentary, filmmaker, or journalist has had more access 73 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:38.639 in this case, Jared recounts his first hand court coverage, 74 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:42.039 interviews with witnesses, research, and other information he gathered in 75 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:47.000 the case. Interviews include one on death row with Damien Eccles, 76 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:51.400 interviews with Jason Baldwin and Jesse Muskelly Junior, and interviews 77 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.240 with other suspects, including Terry Hobbs. He's been credited in 78 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:59.639 numerous documentaries, including Paradise, Loss Three Purgatory. In the New 79 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:04.439 York Time Times bestseller Life After Death, Witches graphically recounts 80 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:08.159 how three boy scouts, Stephen Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and 81 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.280 Christopher Byers, rode their bikes after school on a bright afternoon. 82 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:15.560 Their bodies were found in the wooded area near their 83 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.199 homes the next day. The manner of death and the 84 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:20.959 way they were bound ankled the wrist made authorities think 85 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:25.959 Satanists might have sacrificed the children. No real evidence tied 86 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:28.800 the teens to the crime, but an error ridded riddled 87 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:31.360 confession by miss Kelly was the proof used to seal 88 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:35.720 the verdicts in the case. As time passed, overwhelming scientific 89 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:41.000 evidence was discovered, witnesses changed their statements, new suspects rose 90 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:43.959 to the surface. The book they were featuring this evening 91 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:48.120 is Witches in West Memphis, The West Memphis three and 92 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:53.759 Another False Confession with my guests, journalist and author George Jarrett. 93 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:55.879 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 94 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:57.040 for agreeing to this interview. 95 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:01.480 George Jarrett, Dan, thanks for having me. 96 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:05.879 Thank you very much for returning back for the first 97 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:10.199 program in twenty and eighteen. Welcome back, Thank you very much. 98 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:15.639 Let's get right into this because, as true murder fans know, 99 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:20.600 we've looked at this case again it's warrants, looking at 100 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.480 it many many times, and I'm glad you're back on 101 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:26.199 today to look at this even closer than we have 102 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:29.319 in the two previous times that we've examined this case. 103 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:38.480 Let's talk about you talk about the entire case because 104 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:42.480 you had this, talk about this incredible access. Let's talk 105 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:47.720 about where you were when this crime occurred. Let's talk 106 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:52.600 about that before we talk about how this case you 107 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:54.519 came back into it, or it came back into your 108 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.199 life back in two thousand and eight. So let's talk 109 00:05:57.199 --> 00:05:59.920 about how where you were and what you were doing 110 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:02.680 and who you were working for at the time when 111 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:03.959 this case broke. 112 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:09.279 I was actually a teenager when the case broke back 113 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:11.839 in nineteen ninety three. I had just moved to Tarkansas 114 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.839 from the West Coast, and I heard about it through 115 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:20.000 news reports. It's kind of funny. My parents still have 116 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.000 a bunch of VHS tapes, you know, people used to 117 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:28.199 record like the the news or other things. And I 118 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:31.000 was actually in my dad's shop one day, actually just 119 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:33.000 a couple of years ago, and he still had a 120 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:34.839 bunch of those tapes and we were going through them 121 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.079 and I noticed one tape from around like and it 122 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.040 was you know, they had dates on him and actually 123 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.279 have a copy of the of the news release that 124 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.319 the night that the three guys were arrested on the 125 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:51.240 local news in Jonesboro, Arkansas, because we just moved there 126 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:54.199 and we weren't really familiar with you know, different you know, 127 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:57.079 like times when news would come on and whatnot. So 128 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:00.839 I was a teenager, heard about it a few people 129 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:04.560 around me. You know, everybody was scared, you know at first, 130 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:06.920 you know, because nobody knew who killed these three kids. 131 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:09.560 But then you know, time passed, and I'll be honest 132 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:12.639 with you, I basically forgot about it. I watched the 133 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:16.879 documentary Paradise Lost, probably around nineteen ninety eight or nineteen 134 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.759 ninety nine. I do remember seeing it in a local 135 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:23.360 video store, and from for the most part, I just 136 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:27.000 kind of forgot about it. I was actually at a 137 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.439 softball game. And in two thousand and eight, I was 138 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:33.199 working at the Jont girl Son as a journalist and 139 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:37.240 I get a call from one of my bosses and 140 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:40.120 the boss asked me if I could cover a hearing 141 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:44.279 for the West Memphis three and so I said, sure, 142 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:46.120 no problem. I got off the phone. I looked at 143 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:47.439 a buddy that was sit with me, I said, have 144 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:51.240 you ever heard of West Memphis three? And so he 145 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:53.519 didn't really know either. So I went and started doing 146 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:57.160 a little bit of research, and you know, slowly but surely, 147 00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:59.639 it came back to me what the story was. Well, 148 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:03.199 that day I go into court Dennis Reardan, who was 149 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:08.279 Damien Nichols attorney at the time. He he pretty famous guy. 150 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:11.439 You know, he represented Barry Bonds in the Balco steroids case. 151 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:14.600 He's based in San Francisco. He was in court, was 152 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:18.399 a short hearing, nothing much to it. And the ironic 153 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.680 thing for me was I was like the fourth guy 154 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.160 on the totem Pole to even cover that one hearing 155 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:27.839 we had we had two cops and courts beat reporters 156 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.040 and then their backup well, we had a couple of 157 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.080 Capitol murder cases going on at the time, and then 158 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:36.519 we also had one of our reporters got summoned to 159 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:42.840 a to civil court and so so there was no report. 160 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.039 I was the fourth gonalist, so I went hadn't covered 161 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:49.080 it well. In the inner months between that hearing and 162 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.440 a series of hearings that began in November of two 163 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:54.639 thousand and eight, we lost a couple of reporters and 164 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:59.039 they naturally win. This West Memphis three came up. Since 165 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:01.600 I'd covered one whole hearing, obviously was the expert in 166 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:05.879 the office on it now. So I started covering these hearings, 167 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:09.600 and it was really interesting to me because when I 168 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:12.039 came into it, when I walked in the door in 169 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:14.480 November when they had they started a week long session, 170 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:17.440 I didn't go into it thinking that these guys were 171 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:22.159 in fit. I just assumed that the prosecutors and the 172 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:25.159 police had gotten right. You know, most of the time 173 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.840 police and prosecutors do good work. They saw cases and 174 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.840 they put the right people in prison, and so when 175 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:33.679 I walked into court that day, I was like, Okay, 176 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:36.840 I was pretty open minded. I would say, actually not 177 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:40.240 open minded, but I was definitely not. It wasn't going 178 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:42.840 to be swayed by. It would take real arguments to 179 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:44.600 sway me. I guess it's the best way to put it. 180 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:47.240 And so as I'm sitting in court, and I mean, 181 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:51.000 and these hearings took forever. They lasted a couple of years. 182 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:54.399 What they are called, They're called Rule thirty seven hearings. 183 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:58.759 And basically, in these hearings, what was allowed is that 184 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:02.480 the judge allowed just about basically any argument that the 185 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:06.679 defense could make these guys were innocent. He basically said, okay, 186 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:09.000 I'm gonna let you make it now. I don't think 187 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:10.799 it would have mattered what they would have argued. I'm 188 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.639 pretty sure Judge Burnette was going to decide, under almost 189 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:17.480 unknow circumstance that they were not going to be He 190 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:20.120 was going to uphold the convictions no matter what. But 191 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:24.000 it's really interesting because they brought in a slew of 192 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.879 high profile experts who testified in the case. And you know, 193 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.279 the first thing that people will say is, well, these 194 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:36.559 were defense paid you know witnesses, and that is true 195 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:38.639 in some instances. Some of these guys were paid, but 196 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.480 some of them were not, and they all came to 197 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:45.440 the same universal conclusions and what you know, and there's 198 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.519 just some you know, like I'm a pretty pragmatic person. 199 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:52.440 I'm pretty pragmagmatic when it comes to journalism, and there 200 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:55.679 were just some details about the crime that didn't make 201 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.480 sense to me from the very beginning, even when I 202 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.639 thought they were guilty. And its actually small things. And 203 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:03.960 one of those small things that never made sense to 204 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:08.799 me was within twenty four hours of the murders they 205 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:12.159 were already interviewing Damien Eckles as a suspect. And the 206 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:16.480 reason that was is alarming to me or as sound 207 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.759 as an alarm belt, is because I've covered a lot 208 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:21.320 of capital Burger cases and this is kind of how 209 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.799 it goes. If you know, take a person a, person B. 210 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.559 If person A shoots person B and a bunch of 211 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:31.000 people see him do it, then immediately personate the suspect, 212 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:35.159 right Or if person A if there's some overwhelming piece 213 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:37.200 of evidence like his gun is at the crime scene, 214 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.360 his wallet, or if person A goes into a police 215 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:43.759 station that confesses then they would be a prime suspect. 216 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:46.639 So in this case, you didn't have any of those 217 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:49.879 three elements one day after and so and then you 218 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:52.279 know this what happens that what happens if you don't 219 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.000 have those elements is you're gonna have to do you know, 220 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:57.360 you're gonna have to do a good detective work. You 221 00:11:57.399 --> 00:11:59.240 know you're gonna have to analyze evidence, You're gonna have 222 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:02.080 to wit in review witnesses. So the fact that they 223 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:05.200 had honed in on Eccles so early, it was kind 224 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.519 of it was just not only is the word suspicions, 225 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:09.600 it's just weird. It didn't make any sense to me 226 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:14.120 just from a you know, covering these types of things perspective. 227 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:17.559 So I said in court, they bring in, you know, 228 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:20.360 they start bringing in all these experts. One of the 229 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:22.960 guys they brought in was a guy named doctor Richard Suberin. 230 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:26.840 Doctor Suberin is the forensic OED on cologist down in 231 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:31.200 Miami Dade County in Florida, and his what made him 232 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:32.960 his claim to fame is that he was the old 233 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:38.600 oncologists who actually helped to identify ted Bundy's victims back 234 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:44.120 in the late nineteen seventies through his bite mark evidence. 235 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:46.480 And so he came and testified in this case. And 236 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:49.919 he's also a and I hate to use these cliche terms, 237 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:55.679 but he is a world renowned expert in identifying bodies 238 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:58.440 that have been bitten like in water, you know, by 239 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:00.799 aquatic creatures because you know, on Florida have got sharks 240 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:04.080 and alligators and everything else. So he he is a 241 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:07.080 real expert in, you know, dealing with bodies that have 242 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:10.679 been savaged by animals and water. And so he came 243 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.879 in and he spent a day and and he told 244 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:18.519 the jedge he said, look, these boys were not you know, 245 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:20.279 they were not sliced up with a knife. He said, 246 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:23.480 there's no boone piercing injuries to these bodies. And if 247 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:26.279 you ever see the knife that was you that the 248 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:31.480 prosecutor's claim was used in these crimes, it's a it's 249 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.639 a the blade is very long, it's like a rambow 250 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:35.919 style knife. And I've seen the knife. It's been I've 251 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:38.440 seen it in the court before, and there is no 252 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:41.200 way if you had that knife and you are going 253 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:43.879 to savage three kids the way the the way these 254 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:46.879 guys were a legship done, you were going to stab 255 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:48.159 one of them. You're not just going to sit there 256 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.679 and scrape them with a little knife, I mean, because 257 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:53.720 that's all they had. They had very superficial wounds like that. 258 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:56.559 And of course Richard Subern's explanation for it was very simple. 259 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.240 These are aquatic creatures clawing at the body that after 260 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.120 they died post more than he said, there's very little blood. 261 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.840 And of course they had all the autopsy photos up 262 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:07.960 on the screen, and they were going through it, you know, 263 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:12.200 very dramatically, and you know, and and even a layman 264 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.200 like me, I could look at it and go, okay, yeah, 265 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:18.080 but if I'm a knife wielding killer, I'm going to 266 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.399 stab the victims, I'm not. I'm not gonna sit there 267 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.720 and scrape on him and not even really causing the injury. 268 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:26.600 So his testimony is very interesting to me. I interviewed 269 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.159 him later. You know, he told me flat out, he said, 270 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:31.559 in forty years of working, you know, or thirty years 271 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:34.120 whatever it was working criminal cases, it was one of 272 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.720 the craziest cases he had ever seen in his career. 273 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:40.879 And then another guy that testified was a doctor Michael Bowden, 274 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:45.519 And of course doctor Boden was the chief medical examiner 275 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:49.240 for the City of York for eleven years. He's you'll 276 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:51.200 see him on TV quite a bit. He's a commentator 277 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:53.720 when something, you know, I only have a major catasrophe, 278 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:55.679 like if an airplane goes down or something, he'll come 279 00:14:55.679 --> 00:15:00.159 in and talk about you know, forensic pathology, you know, 280 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.559 all that kind of thing and so. And he's also 281 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:05.919 written I think episodes of CSI and things like that. 282 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:09.159 So he's he's very well respected, well known, one of 283 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.559 the most respected forensic pathologists in the world. And he 284 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:15.679 probably in more detail. You know, he went in and 285 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.080 you know, they blew up these autopsy pictures and you know, 286 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.960 there was a lot of the wounds were triangular in shape, 287 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:25.519 and he said, this was very simple because these were 288 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:29.799 turtle bites. And of course the prosecutors in this hearing 289 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:31.759 just jumped all over and said, you can't prove there 290 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:36.240 were any turtles in the creek. So in one instance 291 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:39.799 they brought John Mark Byers, you know, one of the stepfathers, 292 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:42.440 actually one of the stepfathers who was one who was 293 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:46.240 accused of doing you know, killing the boys. At one 294 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.759 point they brought him to the stand and they only 295 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:51.039 asked him, you know, basically one or two questions, You 296 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:54.080 know what this place where the bodies were found, what 297 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.519 was it called, this specific place in robin Hood Hills, 298 00:15:57.559 --> 00:15:58.720 what was it called? And he said it was called 299 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:00.480 Turtle Hill because there was a bunch of turtles that 300 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.559 congregated right next to that drainage ditch on that hill. 301 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.879 All the kids called it that. And so it was 302 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:13.200 also interesting too because doctor Frank Peretti, who is the 303 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:18.320 eighth medical Examiner in Arkansas, he had told paul Ford 304 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.559 back before the original trial started. And here's the thing 305 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.000 about Parretti, he actually grow he actually raises terrapins as 306 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:29.279 a hobby, so he raises turtles, and he even told 307 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:35.120 he told paul Ford. He allegedly told paul Ford that 308 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:37.120 he thought that a lot of the woman's on the 309 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:39.840 victims at that time, before the first trial even started, 310 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:43.320 were caused by turtles. Now, when he took the stand 311 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:47.440 during these rule thirty seven hearings, okay, Paul Ford took 312 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.919 the stand during these rule thirty seven hearings and testified 313 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:52.759 to that fact. He said, doctor Peretti did tell me this, 314 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:55.279 but they didn't think it was significant at the time. 315 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.480 And so but then doctor pretty did get on the 316 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:01.639 stand and I will, I will clarify this. He denied 317 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.400 that he ever told Paul Ford this. But as I 318 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.599 told my editor when I went back to the office, 319 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.720 I said, here's the problem with the two statements. First, 320 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:13.079 Paul Ford is an attorney. If he got on the 321 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:17.200 stand and lied about a conversation that he had under oath, 322 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:21.160 he could lose his law license. Doctor Freddy can get 323 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:23.039 on the stand and lie about it and he loses 324 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:26.359 nothing because it's just a conversation to him. So when 325 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.200 you look at what each of them were risking in 326 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.839 that circumstance, you know, again, you know, we don't know 327 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.559 for sure if it happened or not, but obviously I 328 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:37.200 would probably tend to think that the person who has 329 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:39.640 the most to lose would be the person who's not lying. 330 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:45.440 So anyway, so doctor Bowden, he testified Arry and again 331 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:51.240 I interviewed him to very nice man, very well respected, 332 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.920 well educated. He told me, he said, there's no way 333 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:55.640 these three guys did this crime the way that prost 334 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:58.079 He says, this is simply impossible. He said that knife 335 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.400 was not used to do any of these things. And 336 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.319 so then they also brought another guy named doctor Warner Spence, 337 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:05.920 and I guess he's kind of like a grandfather of 338 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:10.359 forensic pathologist. And he testified to the same pretty much 339 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.480 the same thing he said to the three boys. He 340 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:16.440 thought that all three of them drowned in the creek. He, 341 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:20.039 like other forensic pathologists, has no explanation as to why 342 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:25.759 Christopher Byers's you know, organs were pale. You know, what 343 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:27.720 happened to all the blood. Nobody can ever figure out, 344 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:29.799 you know, if this boy blood out where all the 345 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:32.319 blood went, because there was no blood recovered from the scene. 346 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.960 You know, that's also a common misconception that I've run 347 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:37.799 across through the years, you know that is that they 348 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:40.799 did find blood, but that is not true. They tried, 349 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.880 they did some luminol testing weeks after the bodies were found. 350 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:46.799 They found traces of some chemicals out there, but they 351 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.200 were never able to find anything that they could bring 352 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.680 into a court of law. And so, with all this 353 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:57.400 scientific evidence piling up, a woman named doctor Janis Ophoven, 354 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:04.640 She's based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She a foremost pediatric forensic pathologist. 355 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:09.920 Her testimony was really really interesting to me because the 356 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:12.960 the the other three testified about the wounds to the 357 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.960 bodies and that that made sense to me to a 358 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.920 certain degree, which she testified to really strikes at the 359 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:22.960 heart of the case because everybody always talks about jets, 360 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:25.359 Miss Kelly Junior giving three and four and five and 361 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.319 six confessions, and I've heard every one of them. They recorded, 362 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.160 they played them all in court. And the thing about 363 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:35.200 it is the one thing he's consistent about in his confessions. 364 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:39.240 He always says that the boys were sodomized. He says 365 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:42.279 they were raped. And so to me, that's a big 366 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.799 detail because like in his first confession, he got a 367 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.720 bunch of things wrong, and everybody knows that. You know 368 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:50.319 the story. You know that he misidentified the time and 369 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:54.079 the place, and he misidentified which boys were rich, and 370 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:56.319 he couldn't He didn't even tell them that they were 371 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:58.319 tied with their own shoelaces. He said they were bound 372 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.440 with ropes and all this, and we know all these details. 373 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:04.440 What's interesting to me about doctor Ophoven's testimony is she 374 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.400 said that these boys were not sexually assaulted. And and 375 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:12.160 this is very graphic, but you know, they put up 376 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:16.400 three blown up pictures of the boys anuses in the courtroom, 377 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:21.119 and she systematically went through and said, look, there's no damage, 378 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:23.799 there's no bruising to any of their amuses at all, 379 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:27.640 there's no there's no semen present, and none of them 380 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.480 had an STD. Those are the three tests that you 381 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.839 use to determine if somebody has been sonomized sexually assaulted, 382 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.960 and she said, she said it's impossible. She said if 383 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.000 she said it, because even the proscut room point asked her, 384 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:42.680 she said, is it possible to sodomize the child and 385 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:46.039 leave no evidence of it? And she said, yes, it's possible, 386 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:47.640 she said, but it is, she said, but it would 387 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:50.640 be virtually impossible to do it to two or three 388 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.319 of them. She said, there's no way that could happen. 389 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.319 She said, if there were multiple partners, multiple victims, she said, 390 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.200 it's simply impossible, there would be some evidence that had happened. 391 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.880 And so that right there. And even doctor Peretti, when 392 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:04.799 he testified later in the hearing, admitted the same thing. 393 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:08.759 He said, while he left the impression with the jurors 394 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.680 in the original trials that they were sexually assaulted, he 395 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:15.200 definitively said during the hearing, without those the presence of 396 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:17.839 any of those things, then they then they probably weren't 397 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:20.759 sexually assaulted. So that was a big key for me, 398 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:24.160 you know, because for his confession to be true and honest. 399 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:26.839 You know, confessions are supposed to get clarity to crimes. 400 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.200 You know, a police officer walks into a room. There's 401 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.759