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<v Speaker 1>All right, we are going live and I want to

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<v Speaker 1>know if you guys can hear me. Let me know

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<v Speaker 1>in the Jays Analysis YouTube channel, audience, if you can

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<v Speaker 1>hear our discussion before we start rambling and nobody's listening.

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to make sure it says we can here.

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<v Speaker 1>All Right, Dave talk a little bit, so can hear you?

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<v Speaker 2>Jack one chick too?

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<v Speaker 1>Everybody here, Dave? All right, it sounds like we're good. Okay, welcome.

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<v Speaker 1>We finally found a person who wants to finally step

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<v Speaker 1>up to the neo pagan heathen plate and play a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of that a little bit of that heathen

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<v Speaker 1>baseball at the Heathen Diamond. We're gonna see if our

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<v Speaker 1>opponent has the stuff he says he wanted to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'll tell you what so I don't I'm new

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<v Speaker 1>to you. Tell my audience who you are, what took

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<v Speaker 1>you down your path? Take as much time as you need.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna let you say whatever you want to say.

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<v Speaker 1>So welcome to the show. Thank you for stepping up, Dave, absolutely,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 2>And before I get started, like to thank you again

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<v Speaker 2>for letting me come on here and have the opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>to test my steel against a formidable opponent such as yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>You are a master of your craft and had quite

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<v Speaker 2>a few friends to tune into your content. Speak highly

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<v Speaker 2>of you, so, you know, thank you for having me on,

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<v Speaker 2>and thank you to everybody tuning in. You know, I

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate all you guys, and hopefully this is a fruitful

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<v Speaker 2>discussion and we walk away with this both learning something

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<v Speaker 2>and going away with with more wisdom than we had before.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm big Dave Martel. I am a veteran of

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<v Speaker 2>the podcast circuit. I have been involved in you know,

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<v Speaker 2>all kinds of political nonsense. I ran madamericannetwork dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>I've a notorious troll. I've been around. I've been around

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<v Speaker 2>the block for quite a few years with all the stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>But I am also a folkas then I practiced the

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<v Speaker 2>faith of Aso true. I have been converted for you

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<v Speaker 2>know about you the better about a decade. I've been

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<v Speaker 2>practicing one. Before that, I was you know, researching, doing

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<v Speaker 2>my research and everything like that. I was elected as Goati,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like sort of like a like a priest

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<v Speaker 2>of my kindred about six years ago. And it's just

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<v Speaker 2>it's been a wonderful experience rediscovering my faith. However, as

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<v Speaker 2>a child, I was raised kind of half asked Catholic,

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<v Speaker 2>half asked Christian, kind of like you know how a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of us are growing up with the boomer parents

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, we don't really do. We go to

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<v Speaker 2>go to church a few times a year, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they you know, all the Golden Rule and they don't

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<v Speaker 2>really understand the theology. But I do have some family

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<v Speaker 2>that are very very well versed in the Catholic theology.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm not one of the autistic pay gang folks

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<v Speaker 2>out there and that you know, go. I'll call people

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<v Speaker 2>Christus all the time. I will call people cucks if

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<v Speaker 2>they act like cucks or I think their position could

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<v Speaker 2>be cucked. But I don't go out there and start

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<v Speaker 2>war with Christians. I have so many wonderful Christian brothers

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<v Speaker 2>and friends and family members of my life that yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I respect them. That is their path, that is what

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<v Speaker 2>is that is their perennial truth. And I even have

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<v Speaker 2>I have a few little statues to my my grandfather

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<v Speaker 2>who was a devout Catholic, that I still have, and

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<v Speaker 2>I regard them as sacred because it was It's not

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<v Speaker 2>my faith, but it was my grandfather's faith, and my

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<v Speaker 2>grandfather was a tremendous man. I have a statue of

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<v Speaker 2>Saint Jude, statue of Saint Thomas Aquinas so so that

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<v Speaker 2>I do certainly believe that there are good spiritual truths,

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<v Speaker 2>perennial truths within the Christian theology and the Christian doctrine.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I converted to paganism focus also true about

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<v Speaker 2>ten years ago, and yeah, I've been practicing ever since.

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<v Speaker 2>And that that's about it. That's how I started.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, the first thing I would ask is, uh, what

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<v Speaker 1>are the the convincing things? What are the things that

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<v Speaker 1>convinced you that that was the path to go? I

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<v Speaker 1>mean like like why did you what was the Was

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<v Speaker 1>there like a series of steps that you went through

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<v Speaker 1>of like, oh, you know, our people are kind of

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<v Speaker 1>being warred against in the media and so forth, and therefore,

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<v Speaker 1>you know that should be expressed in my religious perspective,

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<v Speaker 1>and so therefore I need a kindred that I don't

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<v Speaker 1>really get at like a Novasordo church or a normany

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<v Speaker 1>Catholic type of situation. Was it like a series of

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<v Speaker 1>steps or did you have like a like a one

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<v Speaker 1>book that you read that just kind of changed your

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<v Speaker 1>mind or what was it that was really kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the defining points that made you go that route.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean those are all kind of material reasons,

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<v Speaker 2>and those are certainly positives when it comes to to Ostro,

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<v Speaker 2>like the tribe, the kindred kind of format, the folkish

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<v Speaker 2>for Matt, the uh, you know, just the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>of your your ancestry also being tied with your spirituality.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not what brought me to it. All of those

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<v Speaker 2>things actually came later when we started getting into the

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<v Speaker 2>more heated political climate and all of this stuff. And

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<v Speaker 2>I became more aware of it as I get older

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<v Speaker 2>into my adulthood and I had children and got married

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that. But my, my, what drove me

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<v Speaker 2>into my spirituality were spiritual experiences. I had spiritual experiences

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<v Speaker 2>that I could not explain that we were parallel with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of what is talked about in our spiritual texts,

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<v Speaker 2>which are the Edis, and just I've I just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess it was just revealed to me. I've found

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<v Speaker 2>things by I don't believe in coincidence, but I kind

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<v Speaker 2>of stumbled upon things and they resonated with me. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's just all kind of came together and I just

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<v Speaker 2>I just ended up here. I can't explain it one percent,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in material terms, but it was just a

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<v Speaker 2>I feel that it was a path that I was

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<v Speaker 2>meant to be on, and the you know, the gods

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<v Speaker 2>revealed all of these wisdoms to me, and this is

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<v Speaker 2>this is how I ended up here. The stuff that

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<v Speaker 2>you're talking about, you know, those things are absolutely true,

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<v Speaker 2>and those things are very true for what draw people

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<v Speaker 2>in now. And I'm not saying anything bad about people

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<v Speaker 2>that get drawn in for because they have a yearning

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<v Speaker 2>or a cultural or ethnic yearning, or nationalist yearning, or

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<v Speaker 2>a family kind of thing that they're lacking before, as

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<v Speaker 2>you said, the Norman Catholic, and you know, so I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not saying that those things are necessarily bad. In my

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<v Speaker 2>experience was superior or anything of that nature. But my experience,

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<v Speaker 2>my path into my faith was purely based on spiritual experiences.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So my first question would be, there's two points here,

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<v Speaker 1>if one would be and I'm not trying to offend

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<v Speaker 1>you or challenge the claim that you didn't have a

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<v Speaker 1>spiritual experience, but number one, how do you know that

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<v Speaker 1>those spiritual experiences are good or that they line up

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<v Speaker 1>with what is good in some objective sense. And number two,

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<v Speaker 1>I think the chief problem that I see in any

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<v Speaker 1>kind of pagan view or any kind of approach like

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<v Speaker 1>this is that it ultimately does kind of fall into relativism,

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<v Speaker 1>because there's not really any way to justify or know

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<v Speaker 1>that there is objective truth. There's really just everybody's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of competing claims, and your subjective experiences are just as

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<v Speaker 1>valid or or I mean, how could you measure your

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<v Speaker 1>subjective experiences as to why this religion is true for

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<v Speaker 1>you or why the spiritual experiences that you had were

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily good? Maybe they were from an evil spirit or

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<v Speaker 1>something like this? How do you adjudicate between the truth

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<v Speaker 1>and the false, and the good and the evil? If

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<v Speaker 1>it's if it's essentially a subjective type of system.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I wouldn't necessarily say it's a subjective. I would say,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what, Now, Now, I'm not a biblical scholar

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<v Speaker 2>by any by any stretch, so correct me if if

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<v Speaker 2>I ever like paraphrase anything, that's incorrect. But uh, what

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<v Speaker 2>what did Christ say about knowing whether or not people

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<v Speaker 2>or divine teachers were actually divine. He said, look at

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<v Speaker 2>the look at the fruits of of their of their

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<v Speaker 2>words or something like that. Correct, you know I look

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<v Speaker 2>at go ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I would say that's one thing that we look at. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but he gave a lot of different, uh kind of

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<v Speaker 1>test cases, litmus tests for how we know that you're

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<v Speaker 1>in the falls. So just because in other words, I

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<v Speaker 1>might I mean, if I already believe that what I

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<v Speaker 1>am interested in is true, then I will I will

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<v Speaker 1>interpret the fruits too to vindicate that. I'll have a

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<v Speaker 1>kind of verification bias if I already believe something is true.

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<v Speaker 1>So in other words, you kind of already have to

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<v Speaker 1>have a system or a paradigm by which to judge

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<v Speaker 1>the true in the false, to know if they are

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<v Speaker 1>actually are quote fruits of that system.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean that's a that's an argument that a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of times atheists used in order to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, beat up on on spiritual truths or perennial

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<v Speaker 2>truths or things like that. But uh, with the thing

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<v Speaker 2>that that Christ said, I measure the metric that I

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<v Speaker 2>used to know whether or not my path is true

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<v Speaker 2>is the fruit that came from it. You know, when

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<v Speaker 2>I when I converted. I was, you know, I come

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<v Speaker 2>from I mean, I caught poor, white trash. I came

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<v Speaker 2>for a single mother household. I had a really rough

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<v Speaker 2>early adulthood. I was really bad into drinking and partying

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<v Speaker 2>and doing drugs, and I was pretty much a huge,

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<v Speaker 2>just degenerate until I've you know, started feeling some kind

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<v Speaker 2>of way and I met my wonderful wife and I

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<v Speaker 2>started to, uh, you know, walk this path and practice

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<v Speaker 2>uh ceremony and and really put my faith in my

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<v Speaker 2>heart and my spirit and gave it to the gods.

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<v Speaker 2>And from then I've I've done a complete just turn around.

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<v Speaker 2>My life is completely turned around. I have a decent career,

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<v Speaker 2>I have two beautiful, wonderful boys. I have you know,

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<v Speaker 2>so many wonderful friends. My life is just the fruits

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<v Speaker 2>of what has come from walking this path or just

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<v Speaker 2>you know, immeasurable there. I've just been rewarded so much

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<v Speaker 2>the gifts that I've been given or are obje.

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<v Speaker 1>But like so, I mean, similar things could be said

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<v Speaker 1>about somebody who has a moral reform or a change

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<v Speaker 1>of life that goes into any cult or religion. So

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<v Speaker 1>in other words, a person could conceivably say the same

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<v Speaker 1>things about going into scientology. A person could say the

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<v Speaker 1>same things about Oh, I was a you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>bad alcoholic and I got involved in AA and then

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<v Speaker 1>I joined a I don't know, a yoga cult and

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<v Speaker 1>it just completely changed my life. And so in other words,

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<v Speaker 1>even still, I think it kind of misses the point

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<v Speaker 1>that how do you know that the religion itself is

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<v Speaker 1>true on the basis of the fact that some good

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<v Speaker 1>things happen? When that same kind of litmus test could

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<v Speaker 1>be applied to any different kind of group where people

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<v Speaker 1>join it and they perhaps have positive effects in their

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<v Speaker 1>life later, that doesn't necessarily prove that the system of

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<v Speaker 1>belief itself is true.

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<v Speaker 2>Well you know number one, Like, I understand why you're

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<v Speaker 2>using this argument, but this is essentially an atheist argument

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of bring spiritual truth back down down and

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<v Speaker 2>try to force it into material metrics and stuff. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that argument could be used against people that say they've

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<v Speaker 2>had spiritual experiences in Christianity, or how do we know

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<v Speaker 2>that the Word of God is true? How do we

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<v Speaker 2>know that the Bible is true? Well, you know this

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<v Speaker 2>is that?

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<v Speaker 1>Well you say that, right, I use that argument a lot. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>as a Christian apologist, yeah. So, But the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>atheists use this argument doesn't mean that it's in quote

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<v Speaker 1>atheist argument. But yeah, I'm atheists will use logic. That

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't mean the logic comes from atheists.

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<v Speaker 2>But it comes down to what is the metric of good?

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<v Speaker 2>How do we know that? What? How do we define good?

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<v Speaker 2>What is what is these things that happened in my life?

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<v Speaker 2>How are they good compared to somebody that joined scientology. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the things that that good that have been happened in

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<v Speaker 2>my life are objectively good. They're objectively good. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>I I had a family, I had children, I started

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<v Speaker 2>to get financial success, I have a career, Like these

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<v Speaker 2>things are all just all you know easily you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they're just objectively good. Yea, somebody that's from that joins

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<v Speaker 2>the yoga class that we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>But how do you how do you determine what's objectively good?

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<v Speaker 1>And and now on what basis are there objective truths

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<v Speaker 1>and principles?

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<v Speaker 2>Because well, how would you you define good? Define good?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, ultimately, it's a transcetional category that applies to God.

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<v Speaker 1>So God is the ultimate absolute, and because he's omni

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<v Speaker 1>present and omniscient, eternal, et cetera. That's the grounding that

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<v Speaker 1>I have for any kind of a claim of that nature,

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<v Speaker 1>any kind of a universal, absolute claim kind of makes

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<v Speaker 1>sense with with belief in a single, universal personal God,

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<v Speaker 1>Whereas if there's not that, then it kind of seems

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<v Speaker 1>to be chaos and fate that that reigns, that rules

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<v Speaker 1>the universe and there's not really any universal principles at all.

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<v Speaker 2>But you're saying that there is. You're a Unitarian obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>so you're saying that there is a universal, uh primordial

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<v Speaker 2>perennial truth.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, I'm a monotheist, I'm not a Unitarian.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean well, I mean we can get into that too.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean that's a specific heresy that that's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of in was invented, you know, in the last few

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<v Speaker 1>centuries after the Puritans, with you know, people like Horace

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<v Speaker 1>Man and h. Thomas Jefferson. We're Unitarians, So that's a

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<v Speaker 1>specific kind of Jovah's witness style type of cult.

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<v Speaker 2>My apologies, my apology.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just saying that it's monotheism is at unitarian But

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<v Speaker 1>so how how does that I don't understand the argument here, So,

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<v Speaker 1>so what if it's monotheists, how does.

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<v Speaker 2>That Okay, Well, if you want to talk about monotheistic,

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<v Speaker 2>I actually disagree with the idea that European brands of

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<v Speaker 2>Christianity are monotheistic. I think you know, you talk about

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<v Speaker 2>you believe in the Trinity, correct, you believe in? Uh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>the Trinity you believe in? Do you believe in angels

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<v Speaker 2>and saints and stuff like that? So how is that monotheism?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, because the source of all life, the source of

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<v Speaker 1>all existence, the source of all those creative beings, as

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<v Speaker 1>God the Father.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you you would pay homage to the saints,

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<v Speaker 2>and pay homage to the angels, and pay homage to

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<v Speaker 2>these these manifestations of the divine correct.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, because paying homage or reverence is different than worship.

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<v Speaker 2>So you essentially are a polytheist.

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<v Speaker 1>No, we consistently argue against polytheism because there's only one God,

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<v Speaker 1>one divine nature.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we have a very similar concept. We believe in

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<v Speaker 2>the overarching primordial divinity as you know, what Christians call God.

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<v Speaker 2>And then like Christians, we have you know, our gods,

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<v Speaker 2>which would be I guess sort of like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the Christian pantheon. I guess like angels or lesser

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<v Speaker 2>kind of entities and stuff like that, and then we

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<v Speaker 2>have heroes who are we believe to be divinely inspired

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<v Speaker 2>men like saints. So it's the exact same concept, but

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<v Speaker 2>with different semantics.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's actually very different concepts because we don't think

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<v Speaker 1>that any of the saints or any of the angels

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<v Speaker 1>actually possess the divine nature. So we have a very

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<v Speaker 1>specific reason why we believe in a distinction between created

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<v Speaker 1>and uncreated things. So the creative world has beginning in time,

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<v Speaker 1>it's held in existence by God, and it has a

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<v Speaker 1>certain te lose that God is determined for it. But

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<v Speaker 1>that's different than the kind of being that God, that

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<v Speaker 1>God is. And the reason that we are different from

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<v Speaker 1>what you're talking about is because if you begin to

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<v Speaker 1>blend the two and you kind of have these gradations

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<v Speaker 1>or what would be maybe a chain of being idea

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<v Speaker 1>amongst the Greeks, very similar to what you're talking about

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<v Speaker 1>with hino theism, or that there's these gradations of participation

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<v Speaker 1>in the divine nature and all this kind of stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really incoherent. So once we've adopted an incoherency about

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<v Speaker 1>our starting point, the whole system kind of makes no

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<v Speaker 1>sense because If the divine nature is kind of this

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<v Speaker 1>beyond kind of great thing that everything participates in gradations,

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<v Speaker 1>then it's not truly one. It's not truly simple, and

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<v Speaker 1>we don't really know anything about it because every everything

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<v Speaker 1>kind of gets melded into molded into that great oneness.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the problem with all monistic religions. So what's

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<v Speaker 1>unique about Christianity. The reason why the Trinity is different

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<v Speaker 1>in this regard is that we don't believe in a complete, absolute,

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<v Speaker 1>unknowable oneness or monism. And we also don't believe in

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<v Speaker 1>a complete chaotic particularity where everything's crashing gets you, everything's

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<v Speaker 1>just ruled by chaos. There's actually both unity and multiplicity

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<v Speaker 1>are imperfect balance in God himself. It's not in perfect balance,

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<v Speaker 1>and a whole bunch of chaotic gods and and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Zeus having sex with animals, turning into an animal, and

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<v Speaker 1>having sex with women, and it's just it's all chaos

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<v Speaker 1>and nonsense. That's another problem I think with that view.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not trying to get too off course, but there's

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<v Speaker 1>not really any coherency to this, to the pagan conception.

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<v Speaker 1>We have a very worked out philosophical and theological perspective

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<v Speaker 1>that we believe comes from revelation, and what we get

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<v Speaker 1>in paganism is much more of a kind of sort

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<v Speaker 1>of primitive anti philosophic bias. And so that's why there's

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<v Speaker 1>naturally a rejection of ideas like objective truth. But the

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<v Speaker 1>problem is that we see that that I think those

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<v Speaker 1>religions still need and want objective truth just as much

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<v Speaker 1>as the atheist wants to have an objective universal principle

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<v Speaker 1>or truth, but he doesn't have any consistent way to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about it or justify such a thing or give

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<v Speaker 1>a coherent reason why there would be such a thing

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<v Speaker 1>in his worldview. The same criticism applies to the neopagan

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<v Speaker 1>or the or the Heathen or whatever, that if chaos

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<v Speaker 1>and fate rule these things, then you really don't even

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<v Speaker 1>know if all of reality has this great oneness of

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<v Speaker 1>divinity that all the other beings participate in by gradation,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just just something that you subjectively read somewhere or

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<v Speaker 1>made up or and then the next guy could come

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<v Speaker 1>along and say, no, I am actually the incarnation of Odin.

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<v Speaker 1>There is no you know, I mean, how on what

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<v Speaker 1>basis is one of these things true? And the others not.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, I'd like to reject. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes there's people get used to using like weaponized language,

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<v Speaker 2>And one of the examples of weaponized language that you're

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<v Speaker 2>kind of rolling out here is saying, oh, well, you

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<v Speaker 2>believe in the oneness, but it gets convoluted and clogged

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<v Speaker 2>up because then you have all this chaotic stuff that

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<v Speaker 2>comes down down the And I reject the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>it being chaotic. In fact, it's very very orderly, the

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<v Speaker 2>understanding of our gods and the hierarchy of our gods

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<v Speaker 2>and the eschatology around all of it.

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<v Speaker 1>So but but I mean, the whole history of various

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<v Speaker 1>mythologies and different cultures. Isn't the gods fighting with one

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<v Speaker 1>another and cheating with one another and stealing wives and

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<v Speaker 1>connecting humans and practicing vctiality. That's not in the history

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<v Speaker 1>of the gods.

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<v Speaker 2>Well no, but you know it kind of you're boiling

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<v Speaker 2>it down. I mean, you're you're you're a spiritual guy.

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<v Speaker 2>You understand when you read scripture that you you're not

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to get hanged hung up on the details. Atheists

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<v Speaker 2>make this argument all the time. They'll read like the

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<v Speaker 2>story of I don't excuse me, let me finish, please.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, the atheists use the They'll use the

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<v Speaker 2>example of the story of Job, and they say that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know how the story of Job happens, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>God punishes Job and to prove to the devil that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he's he's so loyal to God and this

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<v Speaker 2>and that, and then atheists say, well, how do you

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<v Speaker 2>you know, why would you worship a god that does that?

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<v Speaker 2>And then you know, and so you understand that when

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<v Speaker 2>you look at that story, you're not looking at necessarily

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<v Speaker 2>the details. You take a step back and you draw

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<v Speaker 2>the universal spiritual truth that comes from that story, the

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<v Speaker 2>moral teaching of that story. So when you look at

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<v Speaker 2>the Bible has tons of who are regarded as divinely

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<v Speaker 2>inspired men or god like men and stuff that dude,

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<v Speaker 2>degenerate shit that do bad shit, you know. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like so to say that, you know, because there's

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<v Speaker 2>these stories where the gods do things, you know, that

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<v Speaker 2>are lousy, like for example, the Saga of Volley, where

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<v Speaker 2>Odin is so angry about the killing of his beloved

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<v Speaker 2>son Balder that he goes and he essentially date rapes

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<v Speaker 2>a giantess woman, a princess in front of her father,

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<v Speaker 2>so they can give birth to a child that goes

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<v Speaker 2>and murders and gets revenge for the killing of his son.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that sounds awful, you, I mean, it sounds degenerate.

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<v Speaker 2>But if you take a step back, you understand the

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<v Speaker 2>nature of Odin, and you understand that Odin is he

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<v Speaker 2>sees all things. He sees all of time, past, president

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<v Speaker 2>in future happening simultaneously, and then you go on to

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<v Speaker 2>understand that Volley goes on to be one of the

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<v Speaker 2>most crucial characters within the later within the cycle of time.

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<v Speaker 1>So, first of all, it's a big difference between saying

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<v Speaker 1>that David sinned and God or Jesus committed sin. Those

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<v Speaker 1>are different things because we believe that God is God,

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<v Speaker 1>and God doesn't He's not fallen, so he's not going

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<v Speaker 1>to commit the kinds of actions that you would speak

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<v Speaker 1>of in terms of that kind of deity. And so

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<v Speaker 1>that's very different from saying, well, the Bible has men

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<v Speaker 1>committing atrocious actions. Yeah, because that's part of the mess

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<v Speaker 1>of the Bibles, that we're falling human beings. That's why

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<v Speaker 1>we need we need, we need God. But again, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you know when again, I think it. I think

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<v Speaker 1>it kind of begs the question to say, well, but

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<v Speaker 1>you know, that's why you got to step back and

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<v Speaker 1>not get hung up on the details. I mean, that's

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<v Speaker 1>really what I'm asking, though, is like, on what basis

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<v Speaker 1>do we know when something is a revealed truth about

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<v Speaker 1>Odin and when it's a thing where we say, now,

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<v Speaker 1>let's let's not really read that literally, let's step back

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<v Speaker 1>and find a universal principle. And I mean, there's there's

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<v Speaker 1>no clear way to adjudicate this, and the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>every single Pagan could just come along and say what

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<v Speaker 1>he thinks, uh, I mean, maybe you have the true

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<v Speaker 1>pagan revelation. But what I'm saying is, how do you

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<v Speaker 1>know to how to adjudicate the two? And the reason

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<v Speaker 1>I'm asking that is to read to lead to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a clearer issue. To make this clear is that

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<v Speaker 1>there are universal principles like reason and logic, mathematics. These

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<v Speaker 1>things are not culturally relative, right, not things that we

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<v Speaker 1>just make up as social constructs. The forms and patterns

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<v Speaker 1>that we see in nature, concepts about logical laws, syllogisms,

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<v Speaker 1>and so forth, they're not They're not human constructs. They're

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<v Speaker 1>actually operant principles in the world. And what that suggests

418
00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:18.920
<v Speaker 1>is that is that there is a consistent pattern of

419
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:22.839
<v Speaker 1>reason and doing reasoning. And what I get from you

420
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:26.319
<v Speaker 1>is that's a kind of an atheistic approach. What we

421
00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:28.920
<v Speaker 1>want is to return to spirituality. So you kind of

422
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.640
<v Speaker 1>set reason against spirituality. We don't do that. We believe

423
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.279
<v Speaker 1>human reason is perfectly in line with with spirituality.

424
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:39.160
<v Speaker 2>First, I didn't I didn't imply that. What I'm saying

425
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:43.000
<v Speaker 2>is that atheists are essentially just they're here to tear

426
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:45.200
<v Speaker 2>They're Discordian, They're just here to tear it down. They're

427
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:47.799
<v Speaker 2>just using weapons. They're not. I mean, I agree with

428
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.400
<v Speaker 2>you entirely. If you if you in uh in Heathen theology,

429
00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:57.039
<v Speaker 2>we say the same thing. We know, uh human nature, logic, reason, mathematics,

430
00:22:57.079 --> 00:22:59.319
<v Speaker 2>all of these things are completely in tune with our

431
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:03.240
<v Speaker 2>spiritual flofilosophy. Like you're just you're talking about the mathematics,

432
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:04.960
<v Speaker 2>and I just briefly watched some of your video where

433
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:07.720
<v Speaker 2>you talked about numerology and stuff, and that nailed it

434
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:10.400
<v Speaker 2>on the head. I would say that same exact stuff,

435
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:12.759
<v Speaker 2>except I would switch out some of the language that

436
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:15.480
<v Speaker 2>I use. You we're describing kind of the same thing,

437
00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:21.440
<v Speaker 2>except the argument here is coming from you know, essentially semantics.

438
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:23.039
<v Speaker 2>It's coming from semantics, it's not.

439
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:26.440
<v Speaker 1>It's very different to say that there's one God with

440
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:32.279
<v Speaker 1>omniscience and who, by his divine providence, is the basis

441
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:35.480
<v Speaker 1>by which we ground these principles in universals that are

442
00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:38.039
<v Speaker 1>offer in nature and by and contrasting that was saying, well,

443
00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:40.079
<v Speaker 1>there's a chain of being and that the top there's

444
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.720
<v Speaker 1>odin and then there's all these kind of conflicting you know,

445
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:45.000
<v Speaker 1>gods or whatever. So I mean, are the gods fighting

446
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.440
<v Speaker 1>or not? Are they Are they just representations of symbolic

447
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.480
<v Speaker 1>principles or are they actual entities that are fighting out

448
00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:52.079
<v Speaker 1>there in the world.

449
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean all of the above. It's here's the thing

450
00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:59.559
<v Speaker 2>about in uh in Heathenry, we don't try to pretend

451
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:04.160
<v Speaker 2>that we understand and our little human minds can express

452
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:07.839
<v Speaker 2>and really define what is divinity? What are the cosmic

453
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:10.640
<v Speaker 2>mechanics of the universe. We're not gonna So we have

454
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:14.559
<v Speaker 2>the gods to teach us it through story and allegory

455
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:20.519
<v Speaker 2>and scripture, how to understand it and behave properly during

456
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:23.039
<v Speaker 2>our short time on this life. In our earthly vessels

457
00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:24.519
<v Speaker 2>until we pass on to the next life.

458
00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:26.480
<v Speaker 1>How do you know? How do you know when you're

459
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:28.480
<v Speaker 1>supposed to enact revenge? And how do you know when

460
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:31.640
<v Speaker 1>you're supposed to not? I mean, where there's no consistent ethic.

461
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:33.559
<v Speaker 2>In this at all? There is absolutely.

462
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:37.039
<v Speaker 1>How do you know? How do you know what? When

463
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:38.799
<v Speaker 1>is a good action? When is a virtuous action?

464
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:39.799
<v Speaker 2>When is it not?

465
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:41.400
<v Speaker 1>When are you supposed to go to war? When you're

466
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.960
<v Speaker 1>supposed to have a vendetta? When are you supposed to not?

467
00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:48.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it says clear and day in the ed

468
00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.119
<v Speaker 2>is it says in the Havamal. There's there's plenty of

469
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:55.319
<v Speaker 2>clear as day, succinct descriptions on how you should behave

470
00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:57.640
<v Speaker 2>in certain things, how things should be done, and how

471
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.319
<v Speaker 2>to live your life and how to make decisions and

472
00:24:59.319 --> 00:24:59.920
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that.

473
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:02.000
<v Speaker 1>However, how do you know those aren't the How do

474
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.920
<v Speaker 1>you know those aren't the details that don't really matter

475
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:06.079
<v Speaker 1>that you're supposed to overlook and find a universal principle.

476
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:07.799
<v Speaker 2>How do you know that the ones in your scripture

477
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:09.279
<v Speaker 2>are well.

478
00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:11.240
<v Speaker 1>We have a we have a way of a pattern

479
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.920
<v Speaker 1>of knowing this, because it's not just me reading this

480
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:16.359
<v Speaker 1>book there's a whole history that goes into where this

481
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.720
<v Speaker 1>came from and fulfilled prophecies. There's no fulfilled prophecies in

482
00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:20.559
<v Speaker 1>in Uh in.

483
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Paganism, absolutely there is, absolutely there is Ragnarok. Look at

484
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:28.480
<v Speaker 2>look at the story of Uh. You know, the cyclical

485
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.319
<v Speaker 2>nature of time. It describes to a t the cyclical

486
00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:35.759
<v Speaker 2>nature of civilization, and it's coincides contradiction if no, no, no, no

487
00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:39.079
<v Speaker 2>no no, it coincides with the stories that come into Vedas.

488
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:41.720
<v Speaker 2>What they talk about in Sonata Dharma is like when

489
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:42.839
<v Speaker 2>they describe the Yugos.

490
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:46.359
<v Speaker 1>Those are completely different philosophies there just because they are,

491
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:49.559
<v Speaker 1>just because you find a similarity. The basis of that

492
00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:53.119
<v Speaker 1>religion is that you need to uh destroy your ego

493
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:57.039
<v Speaker 1>and and find unification with the thusness of the universe.

494
00:25:57.079 --> 00:25:59.400
<v Speaker 1>That's why you see, that's why you see Yogis sitting

495
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:02.319
<v Speaker 1>out there in their shit, because that religion is ridiculous.

496
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:04.519
<v Speaker 1>It's not the same religion as what you're talking about.

497
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.200
<v Speaker 1>So what you do is cafeteria style, pick and choose

498
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:08.880
<v Speaker 1>what you want from each one of these traditions to

499
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.519
<v Speaker 1>call to concoct the thing that you think makes it

500
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:12.960
<v Speaker 1>look all the same that's false.

501
00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:15.519
<v Speaker 2>First of all, you're you're implying that I'm saying that

502
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:19.680
<v Speaker 2>the totality, the entirety of all of Hinduism is exactly

503
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:21.599
<v Speaker 2>the same as that. You know, what I'm talking about

504
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:25.240
<v Speaker 2>is the original scriptures written in the Vedas are hail

505
00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:30.759
<v Speaker 2>from a similar ancestral spiritually philosophical root. And we know

506
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.200
<v Speaker 2>that in science, we know that we've uncovered these people,

507
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.160
<v Speaker 2>the the you know, the Indo Arians, they all hail

508
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.640
<v Speaker 2>from the same kind of root philosophy, and that's where

509
00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:43.839
<v Speaker 2>it all came from. Now to get what philosophy comes from,

510
00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:46.119
<v Speaker 2>it's called proto Indo European.

511
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:49.119
<v Speaker 1>Oh so, in other words, it took as it took

512
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.480
<v Speaker 1>secular academics to dig up and prove what is the

513
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:57.359
<v Speaker 1>true revelation that's the skeletal thing that's been corroded throughout

514
00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:00.559
<v Speaker 1>all these millennia, which you're arguing is somehow.

515
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:06.160
<v Speaker 2>In some skeletons, you're going to deny truth prophecy. By

516
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.240
<v Speaker 2>the way, so what you're saying is you're going to

517
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:10.440
<v Speaker 2>not deny truth because it comes from a source that

518
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:11.640
<v Speaker 2>you don't like I thought you were just said.

519
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:14.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying that you are your arguments here are all

520
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:18.119
<v Speaker 1>subjective because you're lying not they are. You don't see

521
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:19.799
<v Speaker 1>that they are, but they are because you're relying on

522
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.839
<v Speaker 1>principles that are mathematical, that are universal, that are that

523
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.279
<v Speaker 1>are supposedly scientific. But the arguments that you're giving to

524
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:28.960
<v Speaker 1>ground this are subjective. That's the problem.

525
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:31.400
<v Speaker 2>It's not subjective. You just said a few moments ago

526
00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:33.920
<v Speaker 2>that you are in line with logic and reason and

527
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:36.599
<v Speaker 2>science and and what we do know and what are

528
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:40.400
<v Speaker 2>mathematical truths. If we uncover a mathematical truth, if somebody

529
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.440
<v Speaker 2>that we don't like that we're not in line with

530
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.400
<v Speaker 2>discovers it, does that make it not true? No, that

531
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:47.799
<v Speaker 2>would be that would be a sinful act, right to

532
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.000
<v Speaker 2>deny something that is absolutely true, you know. So, I

533
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.680
<v Speaker 2>don't understand why you would want to deny something or

534
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.799
<v Speaker 2>expect me to deny something that is a universal truth.

535
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.440
<v Speaker 1>I think you're again you're begging the question because I'm

536
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:04.559
<v Speaker 1>asking how you're getting a universal truth or a universal claim,

537
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:06.720
<v Speaker 1>and then when you explain where it comes from and

538
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:08.960
<v Speaker 1>how you get it, it's a bunch of places that

539
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.279
<v Speaker 1>you go to that don't make sense, that aren't co

540
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.079
<v Speaker 1>that aren't consistent with the philosophy that you have. That's

541
00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:14.880
<v Speaker 1>what I'm trying to say.

542
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:17.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, I just I just you know, no, I made

543
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.359
<v Speaker 2>the case that it is consistent, and in fact it's

544
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:22.079
<v Speaker 2>consistent that it's and I'm making the case like if

545
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:24.519
<v Speaker 2>you read do Mozill, he points out many, many, many

546
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.279
<v Speaker 2>different religions across the Northern Hemisphere, and even in you're

547
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.599
<v Speaker 2>talking like Iranian and like Zoastrianism, and all of these

548
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:35.319
<v Speaker 2>faiths have similar universal truths. And how do you know

549
00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:36.640
<v Speaker 2>what they are? That's the question.

550
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.160
<v Speaker 1>You're just saying these things. There's no clear there's no

551
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.799
<v Speaker 1>You've not given a single clear example of how do

552
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:44.079
<v Speaker 1>I know in a certain instance whether I should enactive

553
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:47.160
<v Speaker 1>indetta or whether I should run away from it? Well,

554
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:50.240
<v Speaker 1>that's say, Well, there's a lot of general general principles.

555
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Up we're talking about. How how do I know that

556
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:54.440
<v Speaker 2>it's universally true? How do I know that my spiritual

557
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:58.160
<v Speaker 2>philosophy is true? I know? Well, number one, and how

558
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:01.839
<v Speaker 2>do I know that the mathematics and the metrics in

559
00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:04.039
<v Speaker 2>which I used to measure it is true are in

560
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:06.680
<v Speaker 2>fact true? And I'm saying that one of my metrics,

561
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:09.160
<v Speaker 2>one of my my pieces of evidence. Is that it

562
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.519
<v Speaker 2>coincides and it's parallel with many, many, many other cultures

563
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:14.720
<v Speaker 2>around the world that came to the same conclusion and

564
00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:15.880
<v Speaker 2>have even more more.

565
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:18.960
<v Speaker 1>That's just, that's just, that's just an appeal to uh

566
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:21.720
<v Speaker 1>a large number. That's a fallacy. It doesn't matter how

567
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:27.640
<v Speaker 1>many people. That's appeal to consensus is a fallacy.

568
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:30.319
<v Speaker 2>But that's how science works. How does how do we

569
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:31.640
<v Speaker 2>come out? How do we establish that?

570
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.119
<v Speaker 1>As you about scientific consensus, I'm asking you for a

571
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:36.759
<v Speaker 1>logical justification, and you gave an appeal to consensus.

572
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.359
<v Speaker 2>No, but what we're doing is we're I'm proving that

573
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:43.519
<v Speaker 2>consensus is a legitimate thing. It's a legitimate system all

574
00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:47.839
<v Speaker 2>the sciences fallacy, it's but it's not. It's it's absolutely

575
00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:50.119
<v Speaker 2>based on consense, and consensus is the whole reason we

576
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:51.640
<v Speaker 2>have scientific theory in the first place.

577
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.319
<v Speaker 1>Appeal to consensus is a fallacy.

578
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:58.319
<v Speaker 2>But you asked me what evidence, and I'm giving you

579
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:00.559
<v Speaker 2>one piece of evidence. I mean, you can I didn't

580
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:01.119
<v Speaker 2>ask for evidence.

581
00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:04.799
<v Speaker 1>Also like fallacy, So there's a difference between a a

582
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:08.720
<v Speaker 1>logical justification and empirical evidence or data. I agree with

583
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:11.440
<v Speaker 1>you that we can bring forth pieces of evidence and data.

584
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:14.920
<v Speaker 1>But I asked a more specific question about logical justification

585
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:17.559
<v Speaker 1>for a claim or knowledge of a claim or a

586
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:20.920
<v Speaker 1>metaphysical principle that you're talking about, And you can't justify

587
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:23.400
<v Speaker 1>that by giving me an appeal to consensus, which is

588
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:23.920
<v Speaker 1>a fallacy.

589
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I also don't. I don't like the

590
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:28.079
<v Speaker 2>idea of logical fallacies because it's just a way to

591
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:29.119
<v Speaker 2>cop out of an argument.

592
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:31.799
<v Speaker 1>So no, it's not you believe You just said you

593
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.640
<v Speaker 1>believe in logic and universal principles.

594
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:35.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah I know you don't. No, No, I totally do.

595
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.839
<v Speaker 1>You don't believe in the logical fallacies?

596
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:40.240
<v Speaker 2>You don't, Well, I will take I'll take a logic

597
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:43.880
<v Speaker 2>and reason and scientific consensus and real world evidence over

598
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:47.960
<v Speaker 2>just some like subjective you know, argumentative you know tactic.

599
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:51.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a lot. The the appeal to consensus is not

600
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:54.680
<v Speaker 1>a subjective tactic. It's it is a tactical fallacy. Do

601
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:56.079
<v Speaker 1>you not understand what fallacies are?

602
00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:58.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah I do. But it's just it's just some

603
00:30:58.240 --> 00:30:59.920
<v Speaker 2>ship that some guy made up. So he get it.

604
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:01.759
<v Speaker 1>Now you just have loss of debate.

605
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:05.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay, okay, okay, but yeah, let's get back. Okay, let's

606
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:06.960
<v Speaker 2>get let's get back to the to this stuff here.

607
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:09.480
<v Speaker 2>But what was it? What was the original topic? We

608
00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:12.319
<v Speaker 2>kind of like went went crazy around in some crazy.

609
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.720
<v Speaker 1>So we were talking about, uh, the ideas of the

610
00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:18.599
<v Speaker 1>gods and the ideas of I was talking about fate

611
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.400
<v Speaker 1>and the problems that I see in kind of trying

612
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:27.480
<v Speaker 1>to find a basis for for paganism in in like

613
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:31.079
<v Speaker 1>a perennialist approach. I did a debate a few months

614
00:31:31.079 --> 00:31:32.839
<v Speaker 1>ago with a guy who's a perennialist. It was a

615
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:35.160
<v Speaker 1>very similar discussion to what you and I are having.

616
00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:38.039
<v Speaker 1>So basically, what I'm saying is that I just see

617
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:41.440
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of conflicting approaches that don't really have a

618
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.640
<v Speaker 1>unified vantage point from which to try to to do ethics,

619
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:48.279
<v Speaker 1>to try to I'm not saying that in your own

620
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:50.319
<v Speaker 1>life an experience, you don't have good things happen to you,

621
00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:51.960
<v Speaker 1>or you don't do good things, or you don't have

622
00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:54.880
<v Speaker 1>true experiences. I'm not saying anything like that, or that

623
00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:56.720
<v Speaker 1>everything you're saying is false. I'm just saying that when

624
00:31:56.759 --> 00:31:58.880
<v Speaker 1>I look at the philosophy of the worldview that you have,

625
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.480
<v Speaker 1>when I look at the ethical claims of that system.

626
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.359
<v Speaker 1>When I look at the metaphysics of that system, when

627
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:05.720
<v Speaker 1>I look at how you know things and how you

628
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.720
<v Speaker 1>believe and have come to believe that the the addas

629
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:11.880
<v Speaker 1>or whatever are a kind of revelation. I'm saying that

630
00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:14.480
<v Speaker 1>to me, that's where it kind of breaks down. That's MYRT.

631
00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Now I will completely admit to you, and I'm gonna

632
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:18.799
<v Speaker 2>it's gonna be completely honest, and I know you're gonna

633
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:21.680
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna jump on me on this, but you know

634
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:24.960
<v Speaker 2>it's it's it's fact that a lot of our our history,

635
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:27.319
<v Speaker 2>our artifacts, a lot of our our our literature, and

636
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:29.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of our stuff is lost in time and

637
00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:31.400
<v Speaker 2>we have to do a lot of stuff to put

638
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:34.160
<v Speaker 2>it back together. And we have a lot we still

639
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:36.160
<v Speaker 2>have some work to do to put the our faith

640
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:40.039
<v Speaker 2>back together. And that's why we were called. I reject neopagan,

641
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.519
<v Speaker 2>the word neopagan. We are a reconstructionist religion. We are

642
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:47.079
<v Speaker 2>reconstructing and you're automatically, I know what you're gonna say.

643
00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:48.720
<v Speaker 2>You're gonna say, well, if it's not all together and

644
00:32:48.759 --> 00:32:51.480
<v Speaker 2>you don't have all the pieces, why would you follow it? Well,

645
00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:54.920
<v Speaker 2>because you know, because the gods are real, Because divinity

646
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.559
<v Speaker 2>is real because this is the way that divinity uh

647
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:02.039
<v Speaker 2>speaks with me and every man to understand divinity. And

648
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:04.400
<v Speaker 2>we need to get away from materialism. And this is

649
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:06.559
<v Speaker 2>my path out of materialism, and this is the path

650
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:09.880
<v Speaker 2>for many people out of materialism. And it's objective that

651
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:13.119
<v Speaker 2>the fruits of what we're doing and what we're enacting

652
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:16.480
<v Speaker 2>are good. We're getting people people stop, you know, when

653
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:19.480
<v Speaker 2>you in as true community, people stop watching porn, they

654
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:22.079
<v Speaker 2>get married, they have kids, they give up drugs, they

655
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.160
<v Speaker 2>get good jobs. We do, we build communities, We give

656
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:28.480
<v Speaker 2>positive things to people's lives, and so you know, to

657
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:31.640
<v Speaker 2>say that, you know, yeah, we we are a reconstructive movement.

658
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:35.279
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not gonna I can't debate that position to

659
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.079
<v Speaker 2>like because it's true, and I will one hundred percent

660
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:41.240
<v Speaker 2>admit that. But the fact that it is does it

661
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.519
<v Speaker 2>take away from the the the objectively good and objectively

662
00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:47.240
<v Speaker 2>true things that we're doing in society and beating back

663
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.799
<v Speaker 2>the clown world degeneracy that all of us here, you know, you, me,

664
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:54.880
<v Speaker 2>everybody listening, we all hate this, this postmodernist clown world garbage.

665
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:58.319
<v Speaker 2>We all see that it's it's it's trash, This is

666
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.920
<v Speaker 2>our formula. This is my formula, and this is what

667
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:03.799
<v Speaker 2>has resonated with me and what has been the best

668
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.920
<v Speaker 2>path for me and for many many, many thousand millions

669
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:08.920
<v Speaker 2>of us. So that's that's what I got to say

670
00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:09.599
<v Speaker 2>about that there.

671
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:11.639
<v Speaker 1>So let me give you a hypothetical. Let's say that,

672
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:15.519
<v Speaker 1>Let's say I have a dream, and I'm being serious,

673
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:17.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm not trying to be a clown. I'm like, look,

674
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:19.800
<v Speaker 1>what if I had a dream and I felt like

675
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:23.440
<v Speaker 1>it was my duty to restore the true teachings of

676
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:26.519
<v Speaker 1>Peyonic Egypt. And so what I do is I go

677
00:34:26.599 --> 00:34:30.480
<v Speaker 1>and I kind of construct from all of the from

678
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.159
<v Speaker 1>the Mempha, the Memphi, the Memphi Creation Document, and the

679
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.159
<v Speaker 1>Hermitica and these different ancient texts that we believe come

680
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.159
<v Speaker 1>from Egypt. And I put forth a kind of a

681
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:43.719
<v Speaker 1>skeletal approach, and then I build a pyramid out in

682
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:45.920
<v Speaker 1>my backyard and I get it going, and I say that,

683
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, the true Faluronic religion requires I have discovered

684
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.559
<v Speaker 1>this through my own research, and I've actually found some

685
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.679
<v Speaker 1>scholars that will back me up on this. We've discovered

686
00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:00.679
<v Speaker 1>that everybody who follows my cult that they need to

687
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:04.559
<v Speaker 1>offer their all the hottest daughters all need to be

688
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:09.559
<v Speaker 1>given to me. And that's that's divine phyronic revolution revelation.

689
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:14.480
<v Speaker 1>I am like wadib, I am the god Emperor. So

690
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:17.840
<v Speaker 1>how would you say that any of this is wrong?

691
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:19.960
<v Speaker 1>How would you say that any of that's incorrect or

692
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:23.440
<v Speaker 1>on what basis? Because I'm going to say, yeah, but bro,

693
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:27.320
<v Speaker 1>it's objectively true that I am helping out these hotties

694
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.480
<v Speaker 1>because when I'm laying the pipe to my harem of hotties,

695
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:34.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm given the best possible world for all human beings

696
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:38.360
<v Speaker 1>by more and more offspring coming from JD.

697
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, what is what? What? What is the fruit of

698
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:42.280
<v Speaker 2>this guy?

699
00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:43.039
<v Speaker 3>Like you?

700
00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:44.920
<v Speaker 2>What are you? What are you proving? How are you

701
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:47.920
<v Speaker 2>religion that I have constructed? Those are good fruits, bro,

702
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:50.880
<v Speaker 2>that's that. But that's not fruits. That's just claims like

703
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:52.800
<v Speaker 2>you got to produce something to show that you have

704
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:53.880
<v Speaker 2>veg I.

705
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Really do this, and I really do have a harem

706
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:59.679
<v Speaker 1>and a whole bunch of uh supermodel babes and I

707
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.639
<v Speaker 1>and I act like I'm a god emperor, Like, how

708
00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:06.719
<v Speaker 1>is that not the fruit's consistent with my revelation in

709
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:07.320
<v Speaker 1>my religion?

710
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:09.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, how would if a guy came out like that,

711
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:13.960
<v Speaker 2>that said he is the next Messiah, and how would

712
00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:14.480
<v Speaker 2>you take him?

713
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.239
<v Speaker 1>And he could prove it, well, I would argue with

714
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:18.639
<v Speaker 1>him the same way I'm arguing with you is that

715
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:22.000
<v Speaker 1>these these contracts kind of break down because you ultimately

716
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:24.360
<v Speaker 1>have when you're gonna compare these kinds of systems, you

717
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:26.760
<v Speaker 1>have to go back to things like logic. You have

718
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:29.000
<v Speaker 1>to go back to things like universal claims and principles,

719
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:33.719
<v Speaker 1>and that's gonna involve pulling out things like logical fallacies,

720
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:35.840
<v Speaker 1>which I guess you said it doesn't really matter.

721
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:38.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, do you know I actually agree with you one

722
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:41.599
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent? Yah. You were is twenty nineteen, like we

723
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:45.079
<v Speaker 2>we're a current year. So it's going to be kind

724
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 2>of hard for a guy to prove to me that

725
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:49.599
<v Speaker 2>he is, you know, the son of Odin and he's

726
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:53.400
<v Speaker 2>here to establish galactic pagan supremacy and he's got a

727
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.400
<v Speaker 2>whole harem full of you know. Okay, but let's say

728
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:56.639
<v Speaker 2>you're not.

729
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:58.480
<v Speaker 1>Let's say that I do this off over on my

730
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:01.440
<v Speaker 1>own libertarian island somewhere and I'm not even messing with

731
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:03.559
<v Speaker 1>your people. Your people. What I'm saying is, is there

732
00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:05.280
<v Speaker 1>any basis that you have to say what I'm doing

733
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:05.639
<v Speaker 1>is wrong.

734
00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:08.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, sure, if you're if you're going against the

735
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:13.440
<v Speaker 2>the you know, principles of Frith and oath set forth

736
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:15.599
<v Speaker 2>within the the halve of mall and within the head

737
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.000
<v Speaker 2>is then you're you're not doing constructing.

738
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:20.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm constructing the true Pharonic religion.

739
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, okay, so number one, if you're constructing the

740
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.639
<v Speaker 2>Egyptian religion, I would question you, you know, right away,

741
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.000
<v Speaker 2>because you're not Egyptian. You're you're a white guy obviously.

742
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.000
<v Speaker 1>So, but there's a good argument to be made that

743
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:34.480
<v Speaker 1>the upper class of Egypt, the upper cast were actually

744
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:37.880
<v Speaker 1>uh perhaps Arian, So I actually agree with that.

745
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:41.000
<v Speaker 2>But but even so, but even so, so, what why

746
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:41.719
<v Speaker 2>do I have to.

747
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:46.599
<v Speaker 1>Be part of that racial h haplo group in order

748
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.719
<v Speaker 1>to be that maybe maybe the gods have donned me

749
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:52.920
<v Speaker 1>the new initiator of the new Pharonic religion.

750
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:57.239
<v Speaker 2>Well okay, so this this gets into the the debate

751
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:03.239
<v Speaker 2>of focism versus universalism and perennialism, and that divinity. In

752
00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:07.440
<v Speaker 2>our school of thought, divinity is expressed differently among different

753
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:10.679
<v Speaker 2>peoples because different people are you know, as we know

754
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:13.360
<v Speaker 2>in these you know, in these circles out here on

755
00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:17.840
<v Speaker 2>the internet. Different people are are biologically different, they think differently,

756
00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:21.400
<v Speaker 2>they have different attributes, they have evolved in different places.

757
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:24.159
<v Speaker 2>They're just we're just obviously different. You know, it's not

758
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:27.199
<v Speaker 2>one race, the human race. So obviously when something comes down,

759
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:31.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, when they're divinely inspired, they will express divinity

760
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:34.760
<v Speaker 2>in different ways, and that is why it's different. We don't.

761
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:36.679
<v Speaker 2>We don't. So I could look at.

762
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:39.760
<v Speaker 1>There's nothing wrong with my with my wad deep God

763
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:43.559
<v Speaker 1>Emperor cult. I'm the Quizat's hotter rock. I gotta hear them.

764
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:44.280
<v Speaker 1>Nothing wrong with that.

765
00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, there is something wrong with that because you're just

766
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.519
<v Speaker 2>coming out with it. You're not. You're there's no basis

767
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:51.760
<v Speaker 2>in ancestry that shows that it's a tradition.

768
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you just said that you had spiritual experiences

769
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:57.480
<v Speaker 1>that led you to your religion. So I'm saying the

770
00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:00.880
<v Speaker 1>same thing. I have had a spiritual experience. It happened

771
00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:02.679
<v Speaker 1>in a dream. I was told that I need to

772
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:06.400
<v Speaker 1>set up the pyramid in my backyard. On what basis

773
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:08.519
<v Speaker 1>is that going to be degenerate?

774
00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:13.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Well, number one, it's it's not like Okay, So

775
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:18.159
<v Speaker 2>here's the fundamental misunderstanding about Heathenry is that people that

776
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.920
<v Speaker 2>look through a universalist lens still keep looking through a

777
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:25.719
<v Speaker 2>universalist lens. It's not a universal religion that you could

778
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:28.239
<v Speaker 2>just pick up. It's not something that you could just practice.

779
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:31.159
<v Speaker 2>It's not Buddhism, it's not Christianity. It's not something to use.

780
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:32.960
<v Speaker 2>It is an ancestral tradition.

781
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:37.199
<v Speaker 1>It is a okay, But ancestral traditions are particular, right,

782
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.960
<v Speaker 1>They're specific areas or locales within history, geographical places and

783
00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:45.239
<v Speaker 1>so forth. But earlier in the debate you were making

784
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:46.960
<v Speaker 1>a point to try to say that the point of

785
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.960
<v Speaker 1>Odin is that he is a connection to or a

786
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:53.599
<v Speaker 1>manifestation of universal logical laws and principles in mathematics. Is

787
00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:55.639
<v Speaker 1>that's why those two things don't make sense.

788
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.119
<v Speaker 2>I'll make it sense. Make it makes sense right now.

789
00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:02.559
<v Speaker 2>Odin is the german Man. Is the Germanic deity that

790
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:07.360
<v Speaker 2>has come to explain to us of Germanic descent how

791
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:10.480
<v Speaker 2>divinity works. He speaks our language, he looks like us,

792
00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:13.400
<v Speaker 2>he is he is part of us. He's the guy

793
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:16.960
<v Speaker 2>that came to teach us how divinity works. That's that's

794
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:17.440
<v Speaker 2>what that is.

795
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:19.559
<v Speaker 1>But how does he look like you, if he's the

796
00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:22.840
<v Speaker 1>ultimate perennial god nature, that's beyond all things.

797
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:26.760
<v Speaker 2>We mean, look at the depictions of him when he

798
00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:30.199
<v Speaker 2>reveals himself to people. Yeah, that's how he manifests. That's

799
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.480
<v Speaker 2>how people understand him, that's how people have seen him,

800
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:35.280
<v Speaker 2>that's how people depict him. That's how he's expressed in

801
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:36.559
<v Speaker 2>our folklore.

802
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.840
<v Speaker 1>And that's universal, but he appears to specific cultures.

803
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:45.679
<v Speaker 2>Odin is not universal. Odin is not universal. Divinity is universal.

804
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:49.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So is it the same principle that's revealing truths

805
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:53.000
<v Speaker 1>to all these different religions over time and space that

806
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:55.320
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's not Odin, but it's like an avatar of

807
00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:56.800
<v Speaker 1>this same divine principle.

808
00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so like an equivalent of Odi.

809
00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:03.880
<v Speaker 1>What's that it's perennialism basically.

810
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Essentially, essentially it is a very similar to perennialism.

811
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:11.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So the problem with perennialism is that you can't clearly,

812
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:14.280
<v Speaker 1>just clearly say what is degeneracy and what's not. Is

813
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:19.239
<v Speaker 1>uh a giant orgy of but sex? Is that degenerate

814
00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:20.360
<v Speaker 1>or is that just part.

815
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:25.280
<v Speaker 2>Of the right absolutely degenerates it's a degenerate Why on

816
00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:28.960
<v Speaker 2>what basis. Well, because it's a it's a dishonorable act,

817
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:31.000
<v Speaker 2>it is a disgraceful act, it's a it's a an

818
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:31.760
<v Speaker 2>act of the flesh.

819
00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:35.280
<v Speaker 1>That's a that's a reification.

820
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay you Okay, so it's bad because it's bad. No, okay,

821
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:44.440
<v Speaker 2>So within within USO true, we understand that. Uh for uh.

822
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:47.599
<v Speaker 2>In order to achieve a higher level in order to

823
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.079
<v Speaker 2>like what you should strive for in your in your

824
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:53.880
<v Speaker 2>life is you should find a balance between all of

825
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:56.719
<v Speaker 2>the all of the natures of being, all of your

826
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.519
<v Speaker 2>levels of existence, which you I'm sure, I mean, I

827
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:02.840
<v Speaker 2>know you Plato, Guy Plato talked about the tripartite soul.

828
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:06.280
<v Speaker 2>Many other people, philosophers talked about the tripartite soul. Everybody

829
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:10.480
<v Speaker 2>understands tripartite soul. It appears in all European spiritual philosophies.

830
00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:13.719
<v Speaker 2>Same thing. In order for you to ascend to a

831
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:16.280
<v Speaker 2>level of awakening, to a level of I guess a

832
00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:21.239
<v Speaker 2>spiritual oneness, you must balance mind, body, and spirit. In

833
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:24.239
<v Speaker 2>order to balance them, you must master them and to

834
00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:27.679
<v Speaker 2>be like kind of a slave to just the carnal

835
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:32.159
<v Speaker 2>Thurst's is the opposite of is the opposite of that.

836
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:35.400
<v Speaker 2>It's anus worship. It's worship of the material, and that

837
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:36.519
<v Speaker 2>is degenerate.

838
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:39.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, But Plato also thought playing around the little boys

839
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:40.159
<v Speaker 1>was good.

840
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:43.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, it doesn't mean everything he said was good, you know.

841
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:45.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So we're back at the pick and choose cafeteria approach.

842
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:47.880
<v Speaker 2>You're picking it chuse it too. You like Plato, I

843
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:49.480
<v Speaker 2>don't tell me you don't like Plato, and then you.

844
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:51.519
<v Speaker 1>Must not be you must not be familiar with what

845
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:53.679
<v Speaker 1>I talk about, because that critique Plato more than I

846
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:55.599
<v Speaker 1>praise Plato. I mean, yeah, I talk about when I

847
00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:58.960
<v Speaker 1>think he says things correct. But so most of my

848
00:42:59.079 --> 00:42:59.920
<v Speaker 1>talks are critiques.

849
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:01.960
<v Speaker 2>But you are picking and choose, and you say that

850
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:03.159
<v Speaker 2>he does say some good stuff.

851
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:05.280
<v Speaker 1>But I believe, but I have a basis for him.

852
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:09.159
<v Speaker 1>Believe in universal logical principles that directly relate to the

853
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:11.639
<v Speaker 1>mind of a personal God. And you're telling me that

854
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:15.400
<v Speaker 1>it's both subjective and irrational and coherent and rational at

855
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:17.519
<v Speaker 1>the same time. That's the problem. There's a dialectic between

856
00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:20.320
<v Speaker 1>a universal rationality that you want to have to make

857
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:25.079
<v Speaker 1>truth claims and to say something is objectively wrong in X,

858
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:27.159
<v Speaker 1>Y and Z cases. And then on the other hand,

859
00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:30.199
<v Speaker 1>you're saying, well, I can't really say because in our religion,

860
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:34.119
<v Speaker 1>it's just it's based on my people group, this revelation

861
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:38.480
<v Speaker 1>to Germanic peoples. That's not universal. So what's the problem

862
00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:40.320
<v Speaker 1>is that there's there's an attempt to have both things

863
00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:42.400
<v Speaker 1>at the same time, and it's based on again a

864
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:44.760
<v Speaker 1>kind of a dialectic. And I think that again, this

865
00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:46.559
<v Speaker 1>goes back to the Trinity. This is one of the

866
00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:49.199
<v Speaker 1>reasons why of the Trinity resolves this problem of one

867
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:51.800
<v Speaker 1>and many is because we don't believe that there's an

868
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.880
<v Speaker 1>ultimacy to either unity or to particularity and the many

869
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:57.639
<v Speaker 1>that's out there. We believe that God is both one

870
00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:01.960
<v Speaker 1>and many, but ultimately there's one, one personal God. So

871
00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:05.119
<v Speaker 1>so that's the reason and basis for how we can

872
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:09.639
<v Speaker 1>have a logical approach to adjudicating between true claims false claims,

873
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:12.880
<v Speaker 1>true religions false religions is that it's not subjective. It's

874
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:15.480
<v Speaker 1>it's objective, and it's not just saying it's objective. There's

875
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:19.280
<v Speaker 1>actually a logical basis for how there are objective truth claims.

876
00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:22.239
<v Speaker 2>Now, this goes back to why I think it's a

877
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.639
<v Speaker 2>lot of it's semantic because like when I hear you

878
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.239
<v Speaker 2>talk about, well, it's the separation between one and many.

879
00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:29.159
<v Speaker 2>We just have the one and then there's the many.

880
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.159
<v Speaker 2>But then you also pay homage to the many. But

881
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:33.800
<v Speaker 2>then it's not it's not worship, it's homage. It's different.

882
00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:36.360
<v Speaker 2>It's just a bunch of these semantic arguments. I feel

883
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.679
<v Speaker 2>like we're both like we're both wearing like green shirts,

884
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:41.239
<v Speaker 2>except you're telling me your shirt's not green.

885
00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:44.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's not semantics, because even you yourself have

886
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:48.679
<v Speaker 1>already said that the I mean, presumably the terminology that

887
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:51.719
<v Speaker 1>you would differ in when you read the Vedas and

888
00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:53.360
<v Speaker 1>you find things that you don't agree with, that's on

889
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:56.000
<v Speaker 1>the basis of the terminology and the words that are there.

890
00:44:56.119 --> 00:45:01.039
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, all all differences are semantic. That what's But

891
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:04.599
<v Speaker 1>but semantics matter because words match up to reality.

892
00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:07.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, what you're saying is that there's a universal mathematic

893
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:11.920
<v Speaker 2>understanding of things that create an objective metric to measure things. Right, Sure,

894
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:14.280
<v Speaker 2>that's what I'm doing. I'm saying that you know, in

895
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.079
<v Speaker 2>this these guys came up with two plus two equals four.

896
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:19.239
<v Speaker 2>These guys came up with two plus two equal four.

897
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:21.880
<v Speaker 2>My stuff says two plus two equals four. Therefore two

898
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:24.320
<v Speaker 2>plus two must equal four. That's what I'm coming up with.

899
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:27.599
<v Speaker 1>That is the metric, except that that's not what you

900
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:29.320
<v Speaker 1>were saying in the first half of the discussion. I

901
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:33.519
<v Speaker 1>was saying no, because mathematics is directly related to logic.

902
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.119
<v Speaker 1>Logical laws can be formulated most of the time, many

903
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:40.199
<v Speaker 1>times in mathematical forms and principles. So that means that

904
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:43.360
<v Speaker 1>you can't, for example, deny fallacies because the logical fallacy

905
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:46.960
<v Speaker 1>is nothing more than a specific example of something that

906
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:50.400
<v Speaker 1>is a formal logical principle, and those logical principles are

907
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:52.840
<v Speaker 1>essentially the same as mathematical laws, like if you talk

908
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:56.760
<v Speaker 1>about a universal or universal negative universal claim, those are

909
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:00.360
<v Speaker 1>very similar to things in math, math claims, and math sets.

910
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.280
<v Speaker 1>So to, on the one hand, say that and then

911
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:09.960
<v Speaker 1>say that that that, for example, the informal fallacies don't

912
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.400
<v Speaker 1>matter shows that that's not really in your mind when

913
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.239
<v Speaker 1>you approach your perspective or your worldview. So again, what

914
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:18.199
<v Speaker 1>I hear is an attempt to want to be objective

915
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:20.679
<v Speaker 1>and to have objective principles, but at the same time

916
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:24.000
<v Speaker 1>to want to have a complete subjectivity and irrationality that

917
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.039
<v Speaker 1>allows for you to pick and choose in a kind

918
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:29.159
<v Speaker 1>of cafeteria approach, which things are true, in which things

919
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:30.960
<v Speaker 1>are false. And again there's not if you don't have

920
00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:35.280
<v Speaker 1>do you have access to the ultimate divinity that's beyond odin,

921
00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:37.960
<v Speaker 1>that's present as the skeletal outline of all religions.

922
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:40.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we see it every day. It's everything is

923
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:46.559
<v Speaker 2>an expression of the divinity. So it's monistic, yeah, sort of.

924
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:49.639
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So if monism is true, this breaks down at

925
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:52.880
<v Speaker 1>a really fundamental philosophical level. If monism is true, then

926
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:54.960
<v Speaker 1>ultimately everything is at root one.

927
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Right, everything? Okay, So it's not everything is the root one.

928
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:03.960
<v Speaker 2>Everything is at root one. Okay, Well, so what monism

929
00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:06.000
<v Speaker 2>what you're talking about is that everything is part of

930
00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:08.599
<v Speaker 2>the great oneness. Everything is involved in the great oneness.

931
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.280
<v Speaker 2>That's not necessarily what I'm saying. What I'm saying is

932
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:15.000
<v Speaker 2>everything is an expression of the great oneness, including the gods,

933
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.679
<v Speaker 2>including you know, which are different for each people. And

934
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:20.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, that's that's what I'm getting at here. Now.

935
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:22.039
<v Speaker 2>I want to before we go on, you said that

936
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:27.920
<v Speaker 2>the metric that I'm using to describe logic along with

937
00:47:28.039 --> 00:47:30.639
<v Speaker 2>my line of thinking doesn't coincide with what I was

938
00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:32.840
<v Speaker 2>originally talking about. I want to know exactly what you're

939
00:47:32.840 --> 00:47:35.239
<v Speaker 2>talking about that didn't coincide.

940
00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Because you said that the peal to consensus is not

941
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.079
<v Speaker 1>a fallacy, and it is therefore everybody who would do

942
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:44.400
<v Speaker 1>logic and basic logic would know. Then appeal to consensus

943
00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:47.519
<v Speaker 1>is an informal fallacy. But informal fallacies are nothing more

944
00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:51.960
<v Speaker 1>than examples or instant instantiations of universal principles that are

945
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.159
<v Speaker 1>that are formal fallacies.

946
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's just uh, when when I'm discussing stuff with

947
00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:00.360
<v Speaker 2>people and it's just a lot of time, I'm sure

948
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:05.000
<v Speaker 2>you've ran into this. People that are masters of sophistry.

949
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:09.079
<v Speaker 2>It's the logical fallacy thing is is a very easy

950
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:10.760
<v Speaker 2>escape for them to get out of.

951
00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Ark, there's not going to be any debate that an

952
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:14.440
<v Speaker 1>appeal to consensus is fallacy.

953
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:18.079
<v Speaker 2>But why is it that science relies so heavily on

954
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:19.599
<v Speaker 2>appeal to consensus.

955
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Because science deals with the domain of empirical research and data.

956
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:27.880
<v Speaker 1>It's not dealing with the domain of rational justification, conceptual justification,

957
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:29.239
<v Speaker 1>epistemic justification.

958
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:33.559
<v Speaker 2>So shouldn't spirituality be based on research and data as well.

959
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:40.199
<v Speaker 1>Aspect there's an aspect to religion, which is experiential and existential,

960
00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:42.679
<v Speaker 1>but there's also an aspect which is a priori and

961
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:45.480
<v Speaker 1>conceptual or even mathematical.

962
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:48.599
<v Speaker 2>But it should be we should absolutely still be logical,

963
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:53.840
<v Speaker 2>reasonal human beings. Yeah, so I just don't I just

964
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:55.440
<v Speaker 2>don't understand the disconnect here.

965
00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:59.519
<v Speaker 1>Because I'm making a presubpisitional critique of your approach, your worldview. Again,

966
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:04.480
<v Speaker 1>the metaphysics, the ethics, the epistemic claims, they don't cohere.

967
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.159
<v Speaker 2>But I'm saying that they do. And it's just we're

968
00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:07.960
<v Speaker 2>using kind of I know.

969
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.840
<v Speaker 1>You're saying that, but that doesn't you know, doesn't make

970
00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:12.079
<v Speaker 1>it so. And I've already kind of been illustrating through

971
00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:14.159
<v Speaker 1>going through each of these points how it doesn't cohere.

972
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:16.440
<v Speaker 1>The there's a bunch of conflicting claims.

973
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:18.519
<v Speaker 2>It's like you're you're saying this is true over here,

974
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:19.840
<v Speaker 2>this is not true over here, and you're just kind

975
00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:22.320
<v Speaker 2>of like mixing it up, so it just all sounds jumbled.

976
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:24.840
<v Speaker 2>But the fact is that I'm saying that you asked

977
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.320
<v Speaker 2>me why is it that, or you asked me what

978
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:29.599
<v Speaker 2>is the metric? What is the objective metric to prove

979
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:32.280
<v Speaker 2>the stuff that I'm talking about, you know, And then

980
00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:35.400
<v Speaker 2>you said, you know, well, in spirituality, we should absolutely

981
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.320
<v Speaker 2>use logic and reason. We should be scientifically minded because

982
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:40.320
<v Speaker 2>we are modern people. As a place, yes, yeah, it

983
00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:42.519
<v Speaker 2>absolutely should have a place. Science should always have a place,

984
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:46.119
<v Speaker 2>good science, not pseudo science crap, you know. But then

985
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:48.840
<v Speaker 2>I give the example of a very scientific approach of

986
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:52.079
<v Speaker 2>putting this thing together and proving my metric, and then

987
00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:53.760
<v Speaker 2>you say it doesn't make sense now.

988
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:58.199
<v Speaker 1>Because again there's a distinction between what the domain of

989
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:02.840
<v Speaker 1>science and empiricism and investigates and the question that I'm asking.

990
00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:05.199
<v Speaker 1>That's a higher level question, which is how do you

991
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:09.480
<v Speaker 1>justify claims? And this is pretty normative in philosophical discourse.

992
00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:11.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm not trying to be a douchebag and I'm trying

993
00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:14.559
<v Speaker 1>to be a sophist. It's just like, if you listen

994
00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:16.400
<v Speaker 1>to the debate that I would JF for example, we

995
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:19.639
<v Speaker 1>talked about justifying claims or how do we make sense

996
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:21.599
<v Speaker 1>of things like logic in the world. So it's kind

997
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:23.960
<v Speaker 1>of a metallogical question basically, which is.

998
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:25.079
<v Speaker 2>Which is which is a A?

999
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:27.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this comes up in perennialism, this comes up

1000
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.199
<v Speaker 1>in the history of Greek philosophy. This is not an

1001
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:31.039
<v Speaker 1>out out there like I didn't make this up. This

1002
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:33.800
<v Speaker 1>is the Yeah, if you took a philosophy class in

1003
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:35.840
<v Speaker 1>the history of Western philosophy, you're going to deal with

1004
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:40.760
<v Speaker 1>the justification of claims, the justification of epistemology. How do

1005
00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:42.599
<v Speaker 1>we know? How do we know the difference between believing

1006
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:45.639
<v Speaker 1>something and knowing something? These kinds of questions. So what

1007
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.320
<v Speaker 1>I asked you was was a very pointed thing about

1008
00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:52.760
<v Speaker 1>how do you know that these this religious system is true?

1009
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:54.760
<v Speaker 1>And you appeal to a consensus, And I'm saying that

1010
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:56.679
<v Speaker 1>is a fallacy, That's all I'm saying.

1011
00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:58.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's not just the consensus.

1012
00:50:58.719 --> 00:50:58.840
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1013
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:01.840
<v Speaker 2>You asked to be about it a metric, a scientific

1014
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:03.760
<v Speaker 2>metric in which I could prove it, And I look

1015
00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:06.039
<v Speaker 2>to the first thing that I know about science, and

1016
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:08.599
<v Speaker 2>that is appeal to consensus. So I gave that as

1017
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:12.480
<v Speaker 2>an ex as one example of truth. Another example of

1018
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.840
<v Speaker 2>truth that I gave was, you know, the fruits that

1019
00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:17.519
<v Speaker 2>it bears, How these things that come out from this

1020
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:20.679
<v Speaker 2>faith are objectively true, and how these things that come

1021
00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:22.400
<v Speaker 2>out from this faith are objectively good?

1022
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:22.840
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1023
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:25.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't imagine in a million years, you would

1024
00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:27.960
<v Speaker 2>argue that having children and living a traditional life and

1025
00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:31.519
<v Speaker 2>getting back to the simples and rejecting degeneracy is bad.

1026
00:51:31.639 --> 00:51:32.960
<v Speaker 2>I can't ever see you say.

1027
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:36.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, But again, you're missing the point. The question is

1028
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.000
<v Speaker 1>about knowing and justifying beliefs and claims. How do you

1029
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:41.880
<v Speaker 1>know what's degeneracy and what's not degeneracy. That's kind of

1030
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:44.559
<v Speaker 1>the question I've been asking from the get go. Andy, Well,

1031
00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:47.440
<v Speaker 1>it's just objectively good to have kids. That's called a

1032
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:50.239
<v Speaker 1>circular argument. That's restating the thing that you think is good.

1033
00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:52.480
<v Speaker 1>And I'm saying, how do you know how to adjudicate

1034
00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:54.079
<v Speaker 1>between the two. That's why I gave the analogy of

1035
00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:56.800
<v Speaker 1>the guy who starts his pyramid cult. You might not

1036
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:00.760
<v Speaker 1>agree with where I get my vindication from my dream

1037
00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:03.079
<v Speaker 1>of the gods talking to me and saying I'm the

1038
00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:05.119
<v Speaker 1>new Pharaoh. But but who are you to say that

1039
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:06.800
<v Speaker 1>that's not true? I mean, who are you to say

1040
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:10.119
<v Speaker 1>because you grounded your positions on kind of like the

1041
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:12.320
<v Speaker 1>the spiritual experiences that you had, Like, how do you

1042
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.840
<v Speaker 1>say that my spiritual experiences are no more, are not

1043
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:16.880
<v Speaker 1>as valid as yours?

1044
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:20.039
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, when we got started, when I was talking

1045
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:22.960
<v Speaker 2>about by spiritual experiences. That was to explain how I

1046
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:26.079
<v Speaker 2>got here. That wasn't you know this this later stuff

1047
00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:29.480
<v Speaker 2>that we're talking about is as my spirituality, my understanding

1048
00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:32.440
<v Speaker 2>of the philosophy developed and became more refined. That's how

1049
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:34.880
<v Speaker 2>I you know, now I look through different lens.

1050
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:37.400
<v Speaker 1>Let me ask you this question. So, if do you

1051
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:44.239
<v Speaker 1>understand the idea that that morals or propositions are theory laden?

1052
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:48.519
<v Speaker 1>In other words, if in my belief system, I believe that,

1053
00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:51.400
<v Speaker 1>and I'm acting on the whether I actually I don't

1054
00:52:51.400 --> 00:52:52.840
<v Speaker 1>even have to believe it or not. If I'm acting

1055
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:55.320
<v Speaker 1>on the principle that I'm saying that the gods told

1056
00:52:55.400 --> 00:52:59.280
<v Speaker 1>me that I should started the Pharaoh cult, then what's

1057
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:02.559
<v Speaker 1>good in my belief system, in my worldview is going

1058
00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:06.280
<v Speaker 1>to be determined by my assumptions, within my my paradigm,

1059
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:09.119
<v Speaker 1>within my if so, if I believe and if I

1060
00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:11.920
<v Speaker 1>think that I'm the God Emperor, then it is a

1061
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:14.360
<v Speaker 1>good thing for me to have a harem and to

1062
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:17.880
<v Speaker 1>to I don't know, have all the brides of my subjects.

1063
00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:22.519
<v Speaker 1>If I so desire like, that's what I determine as

1064
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.960
<v Speaker 1>a good thing. And I'm saying on what basis is

1065
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:29.360
<v Speaker 1>that not a good because the goods in this perennial

1066
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:31.840
<v Speaker 1>system or any perennial system, are subjective.

1067
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:34.599
<v Speaker 2>But they're they're not subjective because you know, I know,

1068
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:37.599
<v Speaker 2>you're we're going to go back to the fallacy of

1069
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.760
<v Speaker 2>consensus or whatever. But it's parallel with what other people

1070
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:44.679
<v Speaker 2>are objectively saying to the fruits of what happens. You can't,

1071
00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:47.599
<v Speaker 2>I can't let that go. You understand that that's not you.

1072
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:49.800
<v Speaker 1>That's not a justification of a claim, but.

1073
00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:53.199
<v Speaker 2>It's one one piece of a justification. You can have

1074
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:55.840
<v Speaker 2>multiple angles that come together into one full thing.

1075
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:58.119
<v Speaker 1>You believe that a lot of people can a lot

1076
00:53:58.119 --> 00:53:59.119
<v Speaker 1>of people be wrong about something?

1077
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:01.159
<v Speaker 2>Give me, give me one secon here. And this is

1078
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:03.079
<v Speaker 2>what we're running into here. I'm trying to give you

1079
00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:06.480
<v Speaker 2>like a multifaceted justification, and you're kind of like stopping

1080
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:08.519
<v Speaker 2>me on this and stopping me and like picking apart

1081
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:09.199
<v Speaker 2>of the ballacy.

1082
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:10.559
<v Speaker 1>Then it doesn't work as a justification.

1083
00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:13.079
<v Speaker 2>But it can when it's mixed together. Yeah, of course

1084
00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.039
<v Speaker 2>it can. Of course it can. Yeah, Okay, then get.

1085
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:18.159
<v Speaker 1>Rid of that pallacies to justify a proposition or belief system.

1086
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:22.639
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So here's another justification. It says that these behaviors

1087
00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:24.719
<v Speaker 2>are how we're supposed to act clear as day in

1088
00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:27.840
<v Speaker 2>the Eddis, and that was written by divinely inspired men.

1089
00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:28.840
<v Speaker 2>That is the word of God.

1090
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:34.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay, on what basis do we know that that's the

1091
00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:36.639
<v Speaker 1>word of God when you were also appealing to like

1092
00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:38.719
<v Speaker 1>ancient texts like the beta is to say that it's

1093
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:40.800
<v Speaker 1>the same idea there that's in the betas.

1094
00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:43.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm just confirming. I'm just confirming that it's saying other

1095
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:45.360
<v Speaker 2>things for other people, that the mathematics and the metrics

1096
00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:45.800
<v Speaker 2>are true.

1097
00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:48.199
<v Speaker 1>How do you know that that confirms that?

1098
00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:48.599
<v Speaker 2>Though?

1099
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:50.760
<v Speaker 1>How do you know which things are the right things

1100
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:53.320
<v Speaker 1>to pick out when it's literal and when it's not.

1101
00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:55.119
<v Speaker 1>Because you said a minute ago, don't get caught up

1102
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:57.199
<v Speaker 1>in the details, Well, maybe the detail of a situation

1103
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:59.519
<v Speaker 1>or a story about Vendetta is a detail I need

1104
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:00.000
<v Speaker 1>to pay attention.

1105
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, how do you know that? What is your process

1106
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:04.039
<v Speaker 2>for justification? Then?

1107
00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:06.559
<v Speaker 1>Well, we have a process within the church, which is

1108
00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.280
<v Speaker 1>where you actually go into the catechisis the whole mindset

1109
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:12.480
<v Speaker 1>of the church spread throughout the world, because there is

1110
00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:18.159
<v Speaker 1>an objective revelation given in scriptures. No, it's a mystical experience,

1111
00:55:18.199 --> 00:55:19.519
<v Speaker 1>it's initiatory experience.

1112
00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:23.679
<v Speaker 2>So you're you're how do you know that your experience

1113
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:26.400
<v Speaker 2>is better than mine? Then because of this coherent How

1114
00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:27.079
<v Speaker 2>is it coherent?

1115
00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Because I can give a justification, a basis for all

1116
00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:33.000
<v Speaker 1>these things that I'm talking about. How there are these categories,

1117
00:55:33.039 --> 00:55:35.599
<v Speaker 1>how there are these principles that reflect in the mind

1118
00:55:35.639 --> 00:55:37.840
<v Speaker 1>of a single personal God, And I don't think you

1119
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:39.440
<v Speaker 1>can give me a basis for it.

1120
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:41.840
<v Speaker 2>It kind of sounds like you're just creating this like

1121
00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:45.920
<v Speaker 2>logical uh, this like lot uh, like this giant straw

1122
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:49.239
<v Speaker 2>man logical trap, so you could like pick everything apart,

1123
00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:50.920
<v Speaker 2>put it together, and knock it down when you're really

1124
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:53.360
<v Speaker 2>just kind of describing the same exact thing you're saying.

1125
00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:55.719
<v Speaker 2>You're saying, you're saying, you're but no, no, no, know

1126
00:55:55.719 --> 00:55:58.639
<v Speaker 2>what you're saying. It's called sofist string is what it's called.

1127
00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:00.760
<v Speaker 2>It's called your point out things. I think.

1128
00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:04.719
<v Speaker 1>I think, I think I think that anytime you see

1129
00:56:04.719 --> 00:56:07.079
<v Speaker 1>a fallacy or get called out, you think that sophistry.

1130
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:09.760
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, no, I'm doing philosophy. But it's the intent

1131
00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:13.840
<v Speaker 2>behind it. The intent behind it is to you because

1132
00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:16.039
<v Speaker 2>you're because we know what the intend is. That's why

1133
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:18.000
<v Speaker 2>we're here. We know what we're here to debate and stuff.

1134
00:56:18.039 --> 00:56:20.079
<v Speaker 1>So you know you're saying that my intention is to

1135
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:23.280
<v Speaker 1>be to be sophistical and not to be rational or

1136
00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:25.519
<v Speaker 1>to do philosophy. Now I'm doing philosophy when I'm asking

1137
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:30.079
<v Speaker 1>you these questions. The basics of philosophy are ethics, metaphysics, epistemology. Uh.

1138
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:32.079
<v Speaker 1>So I'm going to be looking at your worldview, your paradigm,

1139
00:56:32.119 --> 00:56:34.679
<v Speaker 1>your belief system, and seeing if what I see their coheres.

1140
00:56:35.199 --> 00:56:38.159
<v Speaker 1>I don't see a coherent uh starting point in any

1141
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:42.480
<v Speaker 1>of those positions. And while Christianity Orthodotrician unity I say specifically,

1142
00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:44.400
<v Speaker 1>it might not have an answer to every single thing,

1143
00:56:44.440 --> 00:56:46.280
<v Speaker 1>it's at least coherent. So what we do in my

1144
00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:49.079
<v Speaker 1>approach is we can there two different paradigms and we

1145
00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:50.800
<v Speaker 1>see which one is coherent. Because I believe in a

1146
00:56:50.840 --> 00:56:52.320
<v Speaker 1>coherent You want me to be clear, I'm believing a

1147
00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:55.320
<v Speaker 1>coherency theory of truth. I don't think that when I'm

1148
00:56:55.320 --> 00:56:56.960
<v Speaker 1>getting here is coherent. It seems like a bunch of

1149
00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:58.400
<v Speaker 1>jumbled up contradictory stuff.

1150
00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:00.920
<v Speaker 2>It sounds like you're described been kind of the same thing.

1151
00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:02.599
<v Speaker 2>You say. Okay, well, it says in the in our

1152
00:57:02.679 --> 00:57:05.960
<v Speaker 2>texts that this is true. It says through spiritual mystic

1153
00:57:06.039 --> 00:57:08.320
<v Speaker 2>experiences that this is true. And it also says that

1154
00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:11.639
<v Speaker 2>throughout our church, throughout the time and the world. You know,

1155
00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:14.679
<v Speaker 2>the consensus of the church says the same exact stuff

1156
00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:15.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about.

1157
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:18.760
<v Speaker 1>No, but the difference is that our paradigm has no

1158
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:22.280
<v Speaker 1>Our paradigm has a basis for how to justify these

1159
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:25.559
<v Speaker 1>these beliefs in each of these three categories of philosophy.

1160
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:28.599
<v Speaker 1>So what I've been doing is critiquing, critiquing your paradigm,

1161
00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:31.639
<v Speaker 1>critiquing the basics of where you start the system. Uh,

1162
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:33.800
<v Speaker 1>And I'm saying that it's not coherent, and I'm saying

1163
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:35.679
<v Speaker 1>that if you look at ours, it is coherent.

1164
00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:41.320
<v Speaker 2>So what I said was essentially texts, uh, spiritual experience, consensus,

1165
00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:44.280
<v Speaker 2>and then you said text spiritual consistence, spiritual experience, and

1166
00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:46.360
<v Speaker 2>then consensus. Right.

1167
00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:49.000
<v Speaker 1>But the point is that the explanation of those things

1168
00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:49.719
<v Speaker 1>was not coherent.

1169
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:52.360
<v Speaker 2>But it's the same thing at its at its core.

1170
00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:54.440
<v Speaker 1>You can use the same words. I know you're talking

1171
00:57:54.440 --> 00:57:57.280
<v Speaker 1>about semantics, but I showed you earlier that it's not consistent.

1172
00:57:57.360 --> 00:57:58.840
<v Speaker 1>How do you how do we know if the guy

1173
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:00.440
<v Speaker 1>who starts as cult is did you or not?

1174
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:00.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay?

1175
00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:03.360
<v Speaker 1>How you said, because it's objectively not true and there's

1176
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:06.119
<v Speaker 1>a scientific consensus. But actually there's not a scientific consensus

1177
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:09.719
<v Speaker 1>about whether having a bunch of kids it's true or not,

1178
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:12.679
<v Speaker 1>because much of science is bought off and now promotes

1179
00:58:12.679 --> 00:58:14.239
<v Speaker 1>the idea that you shouldn't have any kids. So there's

1180
00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:17.119
<v Speaker 1>not even a scientific What is science anyway? What is

1181
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:18.039
<v Speaker 1>the scientific consystem?

1182
00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:19.639
<v Speaker 2>And there's a whole other debate, there's a whole nother

1183
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:20.400
<v Speaker 2>debate is it is?

1184
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:24.559
<v Speaker 1>But but so, and I appreciate the rejected scientism, but again,

1185
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:26.519
<v Speaker 1>there's not going to be a clear definitely. You said, well,

1186
00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:29.239
<v Speaker 1>the EDAs tell us this, okay, But you also said

1187
00:58:29.239 --> 00:58:31.920
<v Speaker 1>that the EDAs have a thing where we shouldn't get

1188
00:58:31.920 --> 00:58:34.280
<v Speaker 1>caught up in the details, like things like, well, you know,

1189
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:37.400
<v Speaker 1>the gods seem to act like men, don't they They

1190
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:39.280
<v Speaker 1>seem to be personified human beings.

1191
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1192
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:42.199
<v Speaker 1>So what I'm saying is that I think at root

1193
00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:45.159
<v Speaker 1>here what the problem of paganism is that it's relativistic.

1194
00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:47.599
<v Speaker 1>And I know that you're really reaching four ways for

1195
00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:49.679
<v Speaker 1>it not to be relativistic. But I don't see how

1196
00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:53.320
<v Speaker 1>that is justifiable or inescapable.

1197
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:56.599
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I'm just gonna go back to the

1198
00:58:56.679 --> 00:58:59.400
<v Speaker 2>bottom line, is what's the similar about both of our

1199
00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:02.840
<v Speaker 2>face describing you know, get rid of the debate, tactics

1200
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.679
<v Speaker 2>and all of this. Is you know, your justification for

1201
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:08.760
<v Speaker 2>spiritual truth is what is said in your texts? What

1202
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:13.760
<v Speaker 2>is spiritual experiences? And uh, you know, consensus. And I

1203
00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:15.320
<v Speaker 2>would say, I would go further, and I would say

1204
00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:17.760
<v Speaker 2>that my consensus is more thorough than yours. Yours is

1205
00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:20.519
<v Speaker 2>just based within the confines of your church mind branches

1206
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:23.000
<v Speaker 2>out to many, many different other spiritual philosophies that branch

1207
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:23.800
<v Speaker 2>throughout different names.

1208
00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:25.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I mean you can pick and choose and

1209
00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:26.920
<v Speaker 1>do that. I could pick and choose and say that, well,

1210
00:59:26.960 --> 00:59:29.119
<v Speaker 1>there's similarities and all these other religions to my religion.

1211
00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:31.880
<v Speaker 1>Therefore there's a skeletal outline of how my religion is

1212
00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:34.880
<v Speaker 1>the true religion that that doesn't really I mean, that's

1213
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:36.960
<v Speaker 1>so that's so vague. It could be anything. I mean,

1214
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:40.159
<v Speaker 1>we can find similarities in anything between anything by doing that.

1215
00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:42.760
<v Speaker 2>Well that this is the problem with universalism, as you

1216
00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:45.320
<v Speaker 2>think that you're you have the one universal truth for

1217
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:48.400
<v Speaker 2>all of the world, and which has led to multiculturalism

1218
00:59:48.519 --> 00:59:50.400
<v Speaker 2>and all kinds of this other stuff that has gone down.

1219
00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:53.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying, though, I'm not saying that the Orthodox

1220
00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:56.159
<v Speaker 2>Church has led to this. I'm not saying Catholics have

1221
00:59:56.320 --> 00:59:59.639
<v Speaker 2>led to this, but just the general idea of universalism

1222
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:04.599
<v Speaker 2>has been fundamentally, absolutely destructive for all of the world entirely.

1223
01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:07.159
<v Speaker 1>This is another contradiction. Do you think that your position

1224
01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:09.800
<v Speaker 1>is true? You've been arguing that there are objective truths,

1225
01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:12.480
<v Speaker 1>that's a universal claim in a universal position, and now

1226
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:15.159
<v Speaker 1>you're trying to make a fallacy argument about how Christianity

1227
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:18.440
<v Speaker 1>is the source of and Judeo whatever history is the

1228
01:00:18.519 --> 01:00:21.239
<v Speaker 1>source of universal claims and universal religion. That's what I

1229
01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:23.079
<v Speaker 1>just tried to argue a few minutes ago, that your

1230
01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:24.920
<v Speaker 1>position has universal moral claims.

1231
01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:28.920
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no, my position has My position has

1232
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:34.360
<v Speaker 2>universal truths. There are universal truths, but universalism isn't universal truths.

1233
01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:36.719
<v Speaker 2>There are things that are just that are universally true,

1234
01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:40.280
<v Speaker 2>like you said, mathematics are universally true, but that's not universalism.

1235
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Universalism is taking all of your philosophy and believing that

1236
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:46.400
<v Speaker 2>all people around the world works for them, which is

1237
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:47.679
<v Speaker 2>just fundamentally wrong.

1238
01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:51.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well again, I think that what you think is

1239
01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:56.400
<v Speaker 1>sophistry is again doing philosophy, and this is how philosophy works.

1240
01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:59.039
<v Speaker 1>This is doing philosophy, is asking questions about assumptions. If

1241
01:00:59.079 --> 01:01:00.880
<v Speaker 1>you read the Apology, know you were talking about played

1242
01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:03.480
<v Speaker 1>too Socrates. I mean, that's essentially what what Socrates does

1243
01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:07.440
<v Speaker 1>when he goes out in Athens is he questions everybody's presuppositions,

1244
01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:09.760
<v Speaker 1>they're starting points their paradigm. That's what I'm doing. And know,

1245
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:12.559
<v Speaker 1>actually what you're the sinction that you're trying to make

1246
01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:15.840
<v Speaker 1>there really doesn't work. Because if it's morally wrong for

1247
01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:18.000
<v Speaker 1>me to start the cult and have a harem and

1248
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:21.760
<v Speaker 1>to practice magic butt sex, then it's universally morally that's

1249
01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:24.159
<v Speaker 1>a universal claim. So even if you don't want your

1250
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:26.840
<v Speaker 1>religion to be universal, but at the same time you

1251
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:29.559
<v Speaker 1>want it to have universal aspects, you're still a universalist.

1252
01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:32.360
<v Speaker 1>Even a relativist, even the most rank relativist who says

1253
01:01:32.360 --> 01:01:36.400
<v Speaker 1>there's absolutely no truth, man, he dogmatically believes that that

1254
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:38.719
<v Speaker 1>is a universal truth. And that's what I'm saying, is

1255
01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:41.599
<v Speaker 1>that that's inescapable. So you play you're the one playing

1256
01:01:41.639 --> 01:01:44.760
<v Speaker 1>a sophistical word game of wanting to have objective universal

1257
01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:46.480
<v Speaker 1>claims and truths, and then turn around and say, oh,

1258
01:01:46.519 --> 01:01:49.039
<v Speaker 1>it's the Christian who wants the universal truths when you

1259
01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:50.320
<v Speaker 1>have in need the same thing.

1260
01:01:50.920 --> 01:01:54.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. No, I made the clear distinction that just because

1261
01:01:54.159 --> 01:01:57.679
<v Speaker 2>there are parts okay universal, you admit that there's a

1262
01:01:57.719 --> 01:02:00.519
<v Speaker 2>different parts of your religion, yet it doesn't matter because

1263
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:04.760
<v Speaker 2>its matter. Remember, words matter, definitions matter. You said, you

1264
01:02:04.800 --> 01:02:05.119
<v Speaker 2>said that.

1265
01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:08.920
<v Speaker 1>You believe there's universal truths in your religion.

1266
01:02:09.119 --> 01:02:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Because some aspect there are parts that are universal, because

1267
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:14.960
<v Speaker 2>there are some things that are absolutely universal, but as

1268
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:17.920
<v Speaker 2>a whole, it is not philosophically universalism.

1269
01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:22.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it doesn't matter whether you tack on the

1270
01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:24.440
<v Speaker 1>ism on the back of it, because you still believe

1271
01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:26.800
<v Speaker 1>that it's wrong for me to have the harem and

1272
01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:27.840
<v Speaker 1>the magic butt sex.

1273
01:02:28.119 --> 01:02:29.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, you know, why do we got to talk

1274
01:02:29.719 --> 01:02:32.079
<v Speaker 2>about butt sex? Like? Can we just make it in

1275
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:34.760
<v Speaker 2>a lot of pagan literature? That's what it's not pop prominent.

1276
01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:37.519
<v Speaker 2>I've read all of the I've never seen a single

1277
01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:41.159
<v Speaker 2>uh butt sex, no butt sex, and and and uh.

1278
01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:43.039
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned Plato earlier Plato talks about it.

1279
01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:46.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, Plato is not Germanic pagan and in fact, a

1280
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:47.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of people argue thatism.

1281
01:02:47.519 --> 01:02:49.239
<v Speaker 1>And you're trying to you were appealing to Plato. You

1282
01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:50.920
<v Speaker 1>were appealing to the no no no, no, no no no.

1283
01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:53.400
<v Speaker 2>I gave. I gave an example that I knew you

1284
01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:53.920
<v Speaker 2>were familiar.

1285
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:56.280
<v Speaker 1>So only the Germanic tribes were the ones that were

1286
01:02:56.840 --> 01:02:58.480
<v Speaker 1>that refrained from butt sex. Okay, yeah.

1287
01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:01.840
<v Speaker 2>In fact, and Tacitus, you know, he explained how the

1288
01:03:01.920 --> 01:03:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Tutons would throw sodomites and bogs and pile rocks on

1289
01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:08.360
<v Speaker 2>top of them and disappear them. So sodomy has not

1290
01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:11.280
<v Speaker 2>been historically something that we are, you know, tolerant, tough.

1291
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:14.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, whether it is or it isn't, I don't say

1292
01:03:14.559 --> 01:03:15.840
<v Speaker 1>on what basis is it wrong?

1293
01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:17.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I mean you just made the claim that

1294
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:19.159
<v Speaker 2>there's gods having butt sex in the head is which

1295
01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:21.000
<v Speaker 2>is I you know, it's just so I said, I talked,

1296
01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:23.320
<v Speaker 2>I said the Greeks, all right, well I'm not Greek.

1297
01:03:24.599 --> 01:03:27.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you're you've been appealing to other religious traditions

1298
01:03:27.320 --> 01:03:30.320
<v Speaker 1>as a universal way to vindicate the skeletal outline.

1299
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:31.639
<v Speaker 2>Because I thought that it would be a better I

1300
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:34.199
<v Speaker 2>thought it would be better than just appealing to myself,

1301
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:36.280
<v Speaker 2>which is what the argument you're doing, And so.

1302
01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:38.559
<v Speaker 1>The appeal outside of yourself doesn't work as what I'm

1303
01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:39.000
<v Speaker 1>trying to say.

1304
01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm saying that the you know, the appeal to

1305
01:03:41.480 --> 01:03:44.000
<v Speaker 2>yourself is kind of a you know, it's like saying,

1306
01:03:44.039 --> 01:03:47.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, uh, it's you know, appealing to yourself is

1307
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:48.960
<v Speaker 2>also subjective, and it's kind of you know, it's kind

1308
01:03:49.000 --> 01:03:51.239
<v Speaker 2>of sketchy. You know. I'm saying like, there's these other

1309
01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:53.519
<v Speaker 2>examples all over the place, and you're saying, oh, my

1310
01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:55.000
<v Speaker 2>examples come from in house.

1311
01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:56.320
<v Speaker 3>No.

1312
01:03:56.519 --> 01:03:59.440
<v Speaker 1>I appealed to how you justify claims in philosophy when

1313
01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:01.159
<v Speaker 1>you when you go to a debate, you kind of

1314
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:03.960
<v Speaker 1>there's the assumption that they're that both parties are going

1315
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:06.400
<v Speaker 1>to be subjected to the same rules and laws of logic.

1316
01:04:07.599 --> 01:04:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, but but it doesn't get past my point here,

1317
01:04:10.760 --> 01:04:13.599
<v Speaker 2>is that Why is it that my justification I'm using

1318
01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:16.239
<v Speaker 2>are contradictory. No, they're not.

1319
01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:18.559
<v Speaker 1>The exampt doesn't make them not.

1320
01:04:18.719 --> 01:04:23.280
<v Speaker 2>But they Yeah, you say, there's there's there's gods having

1321
01:04:23.320 --> 01:04:26.039
<v Speaker 2>butt sex in paganism all over the world, doesn't make

1322
01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:28.280
<v Speaker 2>it true because it's not true. But here's the here's

1323
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:28.960
<v Speaker 2>the bottom line.

1324
01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:29.719
<v Speaker 1>Is that true?

1325
01:04:29.960 --> 01:04:33.840
<v Speaker 2>It's not? Okay, read the edis. If you read the edis,

1326
01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:36.519
<v Speaker 2>I will bet I'm a thousand dollars a thousand dollars,

1327
01:04:36.719 --> 01:04:38.920
<v Speaker 2>you will not find one single examits why.

1328
01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:40.719
<v Speaker 1>Are we supposed to follow the EDAs? Why are we

1329
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:43.719
<v Speaker 1>not following Zeus? And in the Greek myths? Like why

1330
01:04:43.880 --> 01:04:45.440
<v Speaker 1>is one true in the other? Well, I said, well,

1331
01:04:45.519 --> 01:04:48.480
<v Speaker 1>it's this is from my people, so it's relative, it's subjective,

1332
01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:50.559
<v Speaker 1>and I'm saying that you need a way to adjudicate

1333
01:04:50.599 --> 01:04:53.159
<v Speaker 1>between true and false, between evil and good. You don't

1334
01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:54.079
<v Speaker 1>get that in your religion.

1335
01:04:54.519 --> 01:04:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, okay, here's here's a good metaphor. So like, uh,

1336
01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:02.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm though, like what is like say, you're trying to describe,

1337
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:06.159
<v Speaker 2>You're just trying to express what a light is to

1338
01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:10.119
<v Speaker 2>multiple different people. Light, a light is light. You mean,

1339
01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:12.119
<v Speaker 2>we know what light is there. But if you go

1340
01:05:12.280 --> 01:05:15.679
<v Speaker 2>to you know, in India there's a different word for light,

1341
01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:17.920
<v Speaker 2>still light. If you go to Germany there's a different

1342
01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:19.960
<v Speaker 2>word for light, still light. Go to Russia, same thing,

1343
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:22.280
<v Speaker 2>over and over and over, still light, but it's spoken

1344
01:05:22.320 --> 01:05:25.920
<v Speaker 2>in different languages, so that makes it it's consistently light,

1345
01:05:26.239 --> 01:05:27.880
<v Speaker 2>it's just spoken in a different tongue.

1346
01:05:28.519 --> 01:05:32.679
<v Speaker 1>That's different than trying to say that the same religion

1347
01:05:32.760 --> 01:05:35.400
<v Speaker 1>is manifesting itself across all these different cultures and that

1348
01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:38.159
<v Speaker 1>there's a basic skeletal outline between all these different religions.

1349
01:05:38.199 --> 01:05:39.800
<v Speaker 1>They're fundamentally contradictory.

1350
01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:41.679
<v Speaker 2>There's a difference between religion and God. There's a difference

1351
01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:43.880
<v Speaker 2>between religion, philosophy and divinity.

1352
01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:47.119
<v Speaker 1>I said, knowing that that is true and that you're

1353
01:05:47.159 --> 01:05:51.519
<v Speaker 1>actually accessing true propositions about the the divinity that's beyond

1354
01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:53.840
<v Speaker 1>the different avatars or whatever, there's no way to know

1355
01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:56.880
<v Speaker 1>that because system is completely contradictory and relativistic.

1356
01:05:57.039 --> 01:06:00.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, debate stuff or argument of tactics society is there

1357
01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:05.480
<v Speaker 2>yes or no? Is there an overarching entity in the universe? Yes?

1358
01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:05.719
<v Speaker 2>Or no?

1359
01:06:07.440 --> 01:06:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Do you understand that the debate tactics aren't tricks, that

1360
01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:13.760
<v Speaker 1>you're actually appealing to things that are real principles, they're

1361
01:06:13.800 --> 01:06:14.760
<v Speaker 1>not they're not tricks.

1362
01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Well it is, because Okay, here's the thing you're you're

1363
01:06:18.159 --> 01:06:21.039
<v Speaker 2>trying to prove to your audience by making me pick

1364
01:06:21.079 --> 01:06:23.840
<v Speaker 2>apart my I could say something that's universally true. Like

1365
01:06:23.960 --> 01:06:26.000
<v Speaker 2>just now, I know you would have said yes, but

1366
01:06:26.159 --> 01:06:28.440
<v Speaker 2>you avoided the question because you're trying to pick me

1367
01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:31.000
<v Speaker 2>apart and you're trying to make a display that you

1368
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.920
<v Speaker 2>and your position are superior to mind as opposed to

1369
01:06:34.079 --> 01:06:34.440
<v Speaker 2>having you.

1370
01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:37.519
<v Speaker 1>Trying to make a point to you about how and

1371
01:06:37.599 --> 01:06:41.519
<v Speaker 1>what the debate is and how universal claims and logic works.

1372
01:06:41.639 --> 01:06:44.880
<v Speaker 1>And you see it as kind of like a sword

1373
01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:46.519
<v Speaker 1>that you bring to the battle to whey, that that

1374
01:06:46.679 --> 01:06:49.679
<v Speaker 1>you like rhetorically kind of sneak around people and make

1375
01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:52.599
<v Speaker 1>them look bad. And I'm saying I do not view

1376
01:06:52.639 --> 01:06:54.440
<v Speaker 1>it that way. You can think that I that I

1377
01:06:54.559 --> 01:06:56.199
<v Speaker 1>do that, But the way I view it, and I'm

1378
01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:57.599
<v Speaker 1>being honestly when I tell you this, is that we

1379
01:06:57.679 --> 01:07:02.559
<v Speaker 1>are actually our minds are tapping into actual universal metaphysical

1380
01:07:02.599 --> 01:07:05.800
<v Speaker 1>principles out there in the world. Logic is really a thing.

1381
01:07:06.039 --> 01:07:08.280
<v Speaker 1>It really there really are real fallacies and all this

1382
01:07:08.400 --> 01:07:10.639
<v Speaker 1>kind of stuff. They're not just tricks. It's not just semantics.

1383
01:07:10.679 --> 01:07:13.960
<v Speaker 1>It's real. And so when we approach it that way,

1384
01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:17.480
<v Speaker 1>what I'm trying to do is look at the justifications here.

1385
01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:20.679
<v Speaker 1>And again, I mean, you're aware that there's the idea

1386
01:07:20.679 --> 01:07:23.239
<v Speaker 1>of justifying things in like a philosophical way.

1387
01:07:24.679 --> 01:07:26.960
<v Speaker 2>But this is a performance, this is this is a production,

1388
01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:27.400
<v Speaker 2>is a.

1389
01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:30.280
<v Speaker 1>How do you you don't know my motives? You're just

1390
01:07:30.360 --> 01:07:33.880
<v Speaker 1>assuming that this is like theatrics and Hollywood or something.

1391
01:07:33.920 --> 01:07:35.360
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no, I'm not saying that. But I'm

1392
01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:39.199
<v Speaker 2>saying that you have the the intent to defeat taking

1393
01:07:39.199 --> 01:07:42.280
<v Speaker 2>it because you know, I mean, am I wrong? Am

1394
01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:44.880
<v Speaker 2>I wrong? That you have the the intent of promoting

1395
01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:48.599
<v Speaker 2>your faith and kind of knocking down mind? Yes or no?

1396
01:07:48.760 --> 01:07:49.639
<v Speaker 1>That's part of my intention.

1397
01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:53.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let's go back to my first question. Is there

1398
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:58.320
<v Speaker 2>yes or no? And overarching divine entity in the universe

1399
01:07:58.639 --> 01:08:01.800
<v Speaker 2>in all of creation? Sure? Yeah, So why is it

1400
01:08:01.880 --> 01:08:06.320
<v Speaker 2>that you're avoiding these universal truths and using essentially pill

1401
01:08:06.400 --> 01:08:09.519
<v Speaker 2>pull to kind of pick apart something that's also universally trial.

1402
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:13.320
<v Speaker 1>I've been sitting here arguing for universal truths and claims

1403
01:08:13.400 --> 01:08:17.159
<v Speaker 1>only consist that they're only consistent with they personally revealed God,

1404
01:08:17.640 --> 01:08:20.439
<v Speaker 1>and that is distinct from the idea of all of

1405
01:08:21.319 --> 01:08:24.920
<v Speaker 1>creation being a kind of pantheistic manifestation of God. So

1406
01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:27.720
<v Speaker 1>that's very that's very important for us because we don't

1407
01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:31.119
<v Speaker 1>confuse the Creator and the creature. They're two different realms

1408
01:08:31.199 --> 01:08:35.640
<v Speaker 1>or two different things. Creation can be exalted, it can

1409
01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:39.479
<v Speaker 1>it can participate in different operations or energies of God,

1410
01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:41.800
<v Speaker 1>but it's never the same thing as the divine nature.

1411
01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:44.000
<v Speaker 1>And that's the central problem with paganism, is that it

1412
01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:47.880
<v Speaker 1>confuses the divine nature with what's created. And so when

1413
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:50.800
<v Speaker 1>once you blend those two worlds, what you get is

1414
01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:55.840
<v Speaker 1>idolatry and you get the madness and relativism of paganism.

1415
01:08:56.359 --> 01:08:59.119
<v Speaker 2>But it's so what, Okay, let's let's take a step back.

1416
01:08:59.399 --> 01:09:02.159
<v Speaker 2>What is your were metric? What is the justification that

1417
01:09:02.239 --> 01:09:04.359
<v Speaker 2>your metric for analyzing this is true?

1418
01:09:06.159 --> 01:09:10.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna utilize the justifications in philosophical discourse, right,

1419
01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:17.600
<v Speaker 1>the justifications in logic, the justifications in uh epistemic analysis,

1420
01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:21.560
<v Speaker 1>the justifications that also are at times empirical. Sure, there's

1421
01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:24.880
<v Speaker 1>nothing wrong with putting forth empirical evidence, but that's again,

1422
01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:27.680
<v Speaker 1>it's different than the way that we justify a claim

1423
01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:30.279
<v Speaker 1>because that has to do with universal claims. And the

1424
01:09:30.319 --> 01:09:33.720
<v Speaker 1>only way you can justify universal claims is not ultimately empirical.

1425
01:09:34.039 --> 01:09:36.680
<v Speaker 1>It has to be a priori.

1426
01:09:37.319 --> 01:09:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So you're going to go back to you're essentially

1427
01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:43.399
<v Speaker 2>using the same justifications as me. You're just using a

1428
01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:45.800
<v Speaker 2>a more I mean.

1429
01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:47.880
<v Speaker 1>You've missed the entire argument I've been making the whole time,

1430
01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:51.039
<v Speaker 1>and you're saying, you're just saying it's pillpol it's talmudism,

1431
01:09:51.159 --> 01:09:53.760
<v Speaker 1>it's it's this kind of stuff. Uh No, I mean,

1432
01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:55.720
<v Speaker 1>philosophy is not pillpool, But.

1433
01:09:55.880 --> 01:09:57.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, debate tactics is.

1434
01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:00.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's because I mean, have you are you not

1435
01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:01.359
<v Speaker 1>familiar with debate?

1436
01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:03.800
<v Speaker 2>Like I mean, I'm not very.

1437
01:10:03.800 --> 01:10:07.039
<v Speaker 1>Rude to you, but I mean justifying claims is not

1438
01:10:07.279 --> 01:10:08.600
<v Speaker 1>semantics and tricks.

1439
01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:12.479
<v Speaker 2>But when you when you split hairs and you try

1440
01:10:12.520 --> 01:10:14.640
<v Speaker 2>to pick apart every single little detail before.

1441
01:10:14.840 --> 01:10:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't think having a harem and but magic

1442
01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:18.079
<v Speaker 1>butt sex is splitting hairs.

1443
01:10:18.159 --> 01:10:20.199
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's a simple question. Well, I mean I've

1444
01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:22.920
<v Speaker 2>I would never, you know, advocate for any kind of

1445
01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:23.600
<v Speaker 2>butt sex ever.

1446
01:10:23.760 --> 01:10:25.640
<v Speaker 1>I know I'm not saying you are. I'm asking the question,

1447
01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:27.960
<v Speaker 1>how do we judicate between whether that's degenerator or no.

1448
01:10:28.159 --> 01:10:29.840
<v Speaker 2>You're keep you know, you keep bringing up butt sex,

1449
01:10:29.880 --> 01:10:31.319
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just saying that it triggers me and I

1450
01:10:31.319 --> 01:10:32.800
<v Speaker 2>don't want to talk about butt sex. That's all I'm

1451
01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:33.199
<v Speaker 2>saying here.

1452
01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:37.439
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, we can pick a different human sacrifice, to

1453
01:10:37.479 --> 01:10:39.520
<v Speaker 1>pick a different thing that we think is degenerate.

1454
01:10:39.720 --> 01:10:42.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So I made the I made the distinction that

1455
01:10:43.479 --> 01:10:46.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, just like you did that. The justification for

1456
01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:51.600
<v Speaker 2>why my faith is true is holy text is consensus

1457
01:10:52.239 --> 01:10:56.399
<v Speaker 2>is results. The fruit of what has happened results the conclusion.

1458
01:10:56.760 --> 01:10:58.720
<v Speaker 2>That's the same thing you said. So it's just like

1459
01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:00.680
<v Speaker 2>all this other stuff to see kind of like fluff

1460
01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:01.520
<v Speaker 2>to me, you know what I'm saying.

1461
01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:03.279
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, do you want to you want to go?

1462
01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:04.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm not mad or anything. I think it

1463
01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:07.600
<v Speaker 1>was a great discussion, but uh, you want to do

1464
01:11:07.720 --> 01:11:09.880
<v Speaker 1>like a Q and A. We've we've we've been going

1465
01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:12.039
<v Speaker 1>for a good while here. Yes, yes, sir, So you

1466
01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:13.279
<v Speaker 1>want to do a Q and A and we'll take

1467
01:11:13.319 --> 01:11:15.880
<v Speaker 1>maybe some super chats and all that and uh then

1468
01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:18.199
<v Speaker 1>we'll do like maybe closing statements towards the end.

1469
01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:20.319
<v Speaker 2>Is that cool? Yeah? Absolutely, yes, sir.

1470
01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So everybody, if you want to, if you send

1471
01:11:22.039 --> 01:11:23.560
<v Speaker 1>some super chats and we'll do some Q and A

1472
01:11:24.560 --> 01:11:26.880
<v Speaker 1>and I'll read the ones that are here. What do

1473
01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:29.319
<v Speaker 1>you think of this is wamp want five dollars. What

1474
01:11:29.439 --> 01:11:32.560
<v Speaker 1>do you think of borrowing some pagan ideas like throwing

1475
01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:39.399
<v Speaker 1>these people in the bog? Well, actually, well, you know,

1476
01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:42.239
<v Speaker 1>the Old Testament laws about that were pretty strict, and

1477
01:11:42.319 --> 01:11:44.600
<v Speaker 1>of course in the history of Byzantinem you have pretty

1478
01:11:44.640 --> 01:11:46.239
<v Speaker 1>strict laws about that kind of stuff.

1479
01:11:46.319 --> 01:11:47.840
<v Speaker 2>So I don't think it really has to.

1480
01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:54.000
<v Speaker 1>What the pagan perspective in dramatic tribes or amongst degenerate

1481
01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:57.159
<v Speaker 1>Greeks is. In my view, it doesn't doesn't really have

1482
01:11:57.239 --> 01:12:02.960
<v Speaker 1>any any bearing on what a Christian civilization could enact

1483
01:12:03.039 --> 01:12:06.239
<v Speaker 1>on the basis of their understanding of divine law. Do

1484
01:12:06.319 --> 01:12:07.600
<v Speaker 1>you have any comments on that?

1485
01:12:08.279 --> 01:12:11.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm the fucking bog lord. Yeah, yeah, I'm all. I'm

1486
01:12:11.479 --> 01:12:17.560
<v Speaker 2>all for the bog cowards, shirkers, traders, sodomites.

1487
01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:19.640
<v Speaker 1>All may We don't want to get the channel taken down.

1488
01:12:19.800 --> 01:12:22.359
<v Speaker 1>So all right, so you we have a strong view

1489
01:12:22.399 --> 01:12:27.800
<v Speaker 1>on that, gotcha. Corneliu Corneliu Cordeliau fifty knocks Jay debate

1490
01:12:27.880 --> 01:12:31.239
<v Speaker 1>Steven Anderson. Uh no, I'm not going to debate those guys.

1491
01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:38.000
<v Speaker 1>They're not they're not they're not goodwilled opponents and debates.

1492
01:12:38.520 --> 01:12:42.039
<v Speaker 1>Uh Imperium five dollars. How is perennialism any different than relativism?

1493
01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:44.560
<v Speaker 1>By the way, I love how my like low iq

1494
01:12:45.319 --> 01:12:48.119
<v Speaker 1>tweet inspired the greatest debate of twenty nineteen. What wow,

1495
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:51.239
<v Speaker 1>I don't uh, well really he thinks this is Yeah,

1496
01:12:51.279 --> 01:12:53.640
<v Speaker 1>that's a compliment to both of us. Thank you, imperium.

1497
01:12:54.119 --> 01:12:56.680
<v Speaker 1>I would say, if you saw the debate that I

1498
01:12:56.760 --> 01:12:59.920
<v Speaker 1>did with with Eric, I don't believe that perennialism is

1499
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:01.319
<v Speaker 1>any different from relativism.

1500
01:13:01.920 --> 01:13:03.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I would say, it's the Oh, go go ahead,

1501
01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:07.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry if you have any comments, so free. Yeah, well,

1502
01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:10.479
<v Speaker 2>relativism is it's it's kinda this is kind of a

1503
01:13:10.520 --> 01:13:13.119
<v Speaker 2>hard thing because some things, you know, I don't believe

1504
01:13:13.199 --> 01:13:15.880
<v Speaker 2>in these dichotomies, Like you can have things that are

1505
01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:18.960
<v Speaker 2>that are objective and then also subjective. You could have

1506
01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:21.359
<v Speaker 2>things that are both simultaneously true. You can have pieces

1507
01:13:21.359 --> 01:13:24.600
<v Speaker 2>of this and pieces of that. Because the divinity is

1508
01:13:24.880 --> 01:13:29.039
<v Speaker 2>in like spiritual philosophy is isn't just like bound by

1509
01:13:29.159 --> 01:13:31.720
<v Speaker 2>our material definitions. I mean you can take a step

1510
01:13:31.760 --> 01:13:34.319
<v Speaker 2>back now. What we're talking about tonight is is the

1511
01:13:34.640 --> 01:13:37.880
<v Speaker 2>absolute objective metrics in which you you measure these things.

1512
01:13:38.279 --> 01:13:42.279
<v Speaker 2>But to say that you know, relativism is is subjective

1513
01:13:42.359 --> 01:13:44.800
<v Speaker 2>and all bad. I mean, I mean obviously obviously, I'm

1514
01:13:44.840 --> 01:13:49.039
<v Speaker 2>I believe very strongly in perennialism. So yeah, I say

1515
01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:51.439
<v Speaker 2>that it's I guess it could be relative. I guess,

1516
01:13:51.479 --> 01:13:53.079
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I'm not sure. That's a It's a

1517
01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:54.960
<v Speaker 2>big topic that goes into more and more discussion.

1518
01:13:55.760 --> 01:13:58.359
<v Speaker 1>Eric Jewel timbucks, how do you feel about the practice

1519
01:13:58.479 --> 01:14:03.720
<v Speaker 1>of uh drink looking male fluids as a as practiced

1520
01:14:03.800 --> 01:14:06.359
<v Speaker 1>by Odin. I'm not aware of.

1521
01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:08.239
<v Speaker 2>That, but I'm not aware of that either. I have

1522
01:14:08.319 --> 01:14:09.479
<v Speaker 2>no idea what the hell he's talking about.

1523
01:14:09.479 --> 01:14:16.000
<v Speaker 1>I think he's trolling. But let's see Lawrence Ballynag two dollars.

1524
01:14:17.119 --> 01:14:20.079
<v Speaker 1>Anyone want to match my chat? Well, I don't know,

1525
01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:24.279
<v Speaker 1>do they? All right? So a little bit of super

1526
01:14:24.359 --> 01:14:27.920
<v Speaker 1>chat action there. Let's see you want to do a

1527
01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:31.279
<v Speaker 1>closing statement. I'll let you if you want to do

1528
01:14:31.359 --> 01:14:34.279
<v Speaker 1>a closing statement to go first, and then and then

1529
01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:34.920
<v Speaker 1>I'll give mine.

1530
01:14:35.479 --> 01:14:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Sure, absolutely, And mister j oh we got another super

1531
01:14:38.760 --> 01:14:39.520
<v Speaker 2>chat here. Let's do it.

1532
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:43.680
<v Speaker 1>Let's do it. Jake Berg five dollars as Ortho, can

1533
01:14:43.760 --> 01:14:47.199
<v Speaker 1>you explic explicate how our faith is the fulfillment of

1534
01:14:47.279 --> 01:14:50.720
<v Speaker 1>the expectation of nations. Yeah, I would say that if

1535
01:14:50.760 --> 01:14:53.479
<v Speaker 1>you look at a lot of those Old Testament predictions,

1536
01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:57.199
<v Speaker 1>like Genesis twelve, Justice fifteen, Justice seventeen. You know, God

1537
01:14:57.239 --> 01:15:01.760
<v Speaker 1>says to Abraham that the Gospel will expand out of

1538
01:15:01.880 --> 01:15:04.760
<v Speaker 1>Israel to the whole nations. And so there's a lot

1539
01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:07.960
<v Speaker 1>of predictions in Amos, there's a lot of predictions in Hoseiah, Isaiah,

1540
01:15:08.079 --> 01:15:11.880
<v Speaker 1>major Prophets, Daniel, etc. That Daniel even says in Daniel

1541
01:15:11.960 --> 01:15:14.039
<v Speaker 1>nine that by the time of the Roman Empire, and

1542
01:15:14.359 --> 01:15:17.920
<v Speaker 1>even secular scholars admit Daniel was written prior to the

1543
01:15:17.960 --> 01:15:20.560
<v Speaker 1>existence of the Roman Empire. Daniel says that by the

1544
01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:24.000
<v Speaker 1>time the next empire comes after Alexander, after the Greeks,

1545
01:15:24.439 --> 01:15:26.800
<v Speaker 1>there will be a birth of a Messiah and you

1546
01:15:26.800 --> 01:15:30.119
<v Speaker 1>will see the end of the Jewish temple sacrifice. And

1547
01:15:30.199 --> 01:15:32.680
<v Speaker 1>then he says the gentiles will be brought into the Kingdom.

1548
01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:34.039
<v Speaker 1>And that's what we've been seeing for the last two

1549
01:15:34.079 --> 01:15:38.319
<v Speaker 1>thousand years, is the bringing in of the gentiles, as

1550
01:15:38.399 --> 01:15:40.800
<v Speaker 1>Jesus talked about in Luke twenty one, in Matthew twenty four.

1551
01:15:40.920 --> 01:15:43.239
<v Speaker 1>So that's how I think that all the way back

1552
01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:47.359
<v Speaker 1>to Genesis. The promises of the Messianic sed are fulfilled

1553
01:15:47.439 --> 01:15:51.199
<v Speaker 1>in Christ and in his Orthodox Church, and so that's

1554
01:15:51.239 --> 01:15:55.800
<v Speaker 1>how I understand the fulfillment of the expectation of the nations.

1555
01:15:56.439 --> 01:15:59.680
<v Speaker 1>So I don't see any more, super chat. So if

1556
01:15:59.680 --> 01:16:01.840
<v Speaker 1>you will go ahead, uh, you have the floor for

1557
01:16:01.960 --> 01:16:03.680
<v Speaker 1>your final statement beautiful.

1558
01:16:03.800 --> 01:16:06.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, mister j thank you so much once again

1559
01:16:06.640 --> 01:16:08.399
<v Speaker 2>for allowing me to step up to the plate here.

1560
01:16:08.960 --> 01:16:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I hope I presented my position in my faith with

1561
01:16:12.399 --> 01:16:16.039
<v Speaker 2>tact and cunning, and it's been quite the pleasure to

1562
01:16:16.119 --> 01:16:19.800
<v Speaker 2>stand up with uh and class swords with an intellect,

1563
01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:22.640
<v Speaker 2>intellectual giants such as yourself. You are, as I said before,

1564
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:25.439
<v Speaker 2>master of your craft. And uh I hope I uh,

1565
01:16:25.960 --> 01:16:29.479
<v Speaker 2>I hope in this time David fared well against Goliath.

1566
01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:33.640
<v Speaker 2>So uh, you know, thank you so much? Uh do you? Yeah?

1567
01:16:33.800 --> 01:16:34.119
<v Speaker 2>Let me go.

1568
01:16:34.279 --> 01:16:36.600
<v Speaker 1>What's your final statements on on paganism if if you

1569
01:16:36.640 --> 01:16:37.720
<v Speaker 1>have any funds? Yeah?

1570
01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:42.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So my final statements for paganism for us true

1571
01:16:42.199 --> 01:16:46.600
<v Speaker 2>specifically because uh, paganism and ostu are not synonymous. My

1572
01:16:47.039 --> 01:16:51.600
<v Speaker 2>final statement is that you know within the clown world,

1573
01:16:51.680 --> 01:16:54.640
<v Speaker 2>within our the sea of degeneracy and darkness, that is

1574
01:16:54.720 --> 01:16:57.760
<v Speaker 2>the that is racked rock. As we approach our final days,

1575
01:16:58.079 --> 01:17:00.199
<v Speaker 2>it is very hard to kind of find our way

1576
01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:03.960
<v Speaker 2>back home. It is very hard to find, you know, continuity.

1577
01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:06.800
<v Speaker 2>And you know, we're homesick for a place that we

1578
01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:09.960
<v Speaker 2>do not we don't even know exists, We've never seen it.

1579
01:17:10.479 --> 01:17:12.840
<v Speaker 2>So what is what is as true as true is

1580
01:17:13.079 --> 01:17:15.640
<v Speaker 2>the gates to Hyperborea. It is it is a way

1581
01:17:15.720 --> 01:17:18.960
<v Speaker 2>for us to master our mind, body, and spirit and

1582
01:17:19.079 --> 01:17:22.079
<v Speaker 2>become in touch with our ancestral knowledge and our ancestral

1583
01:17:22.119 --> 01:17:25.079
<v Speaker 2>wisdom and become a higher level of being, and to

1584
01:17:25.199 --> 01:17:27.600
<v Speaker 2>become in touch with the things that make us human.

1585
01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:31.199
<v Speaker 2>And that is family, that is folk, that is country,

1586
01:17:31.520 --> 01:17:34.159
<v Speaker 2>that is that is divinity, that is all of these

1587
01:17:34.239 --> 01:17:36.640
<v Speaker 2>things that are just wonderful and wholesome and make us

1588
01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:41.560
<v Speaker 2>complete as men, as humans, as Germanic people. Hail Odin,

1589
01:17:41.800 --> 01:17:44.199
<v Speaker 2>Hail the folk, and hail everybody in the chat that

1590
01:17:44.279 --> 01:17:46.920
<v Speaker 2>tuned in. God bless all of you and all of

1591
01:17:47.000 --> 01:17:50.800
<v Speaker 2>your wonderful, beautiful families. May the springtime bring endless just

1592
01:17:50.920 --> 01:17:54.520
<v Speaker 2>fruitful gardens and beautiful angel babies for your tribes. Thank

1593
01:17:54.560 --> 01:17:56.680
<v Speaker 2>you again, mister j God bless you, sir and your

1594
01:17:56.720 --> 01:17:59.159
<v Speaker 2>wonderful family. Thank you.

1595
01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:01.960
<v Speaker 1>I would say in closing that I think that the

1596
01:18:02.239 --> 01:18:06.239
<v Speaker 1>neo pagan movement is a reaction to reaction to things

1597
01:18:06.279 --> 01:18:09.880
<v Speaker 1>that are degenerate, that are problematic obviously across not just

1598
01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:12.039
<v Speaker 1>the Western world, but eventually and as we're seeing now

1599
01:18:12.840 --> 01:18:16.079
<v Speaker 1>global degeneracy and toxicity. However, I don't think it is

1600
01:18:16.199 --> 01:18:20.159
<v Speaker 1>ultimately the correct solution. I think that Orthodox Christianity is

1601
01:18:20.199 --> 01:18:22.399
<v Speaker 1>what is the right solution and has been there is

1602
01:18:22.439 --> 01:18:25.079
<v Speaker 1>the right solution for the last to millennia. I think

1603
01:18:25.119 --> 01:18:28.119
<v Speaker 1>that the collapse of the Roman Catholic Church, which you

1604
01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:32.239
<v Speaker 1>said you have come out of, signifies this. I don't

1605
01:18:32.359 --> 01:18:35.319
<v Speaker 1>fault you for questioning the Roman Catholic Church and looking elsewhere.

1606
01:18:35.359 --> 01:18:37.720
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a very logical approach, given the corruption

1607
01:18:37.840 --> 01:18:41.960
<v Speaker 1>and degeneracy in that institution. But in our view, there's

1608
01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:44.920
<v Speaker 1>a specific reason for why the Roman Catholic Church kind

1609
01:18:44.920 --> 01:18:47.039
<v Speaker 1>of fell into that degeneracy, and it relates ultimately to

1610
01:18:47.520 --> 01:18:50.840
<v Speaker 1>theology and the terms. They're the theological terms that we

1611
01:18:51.199 --> 01:18:54.880
<v Speaker 1>make very precise and have definitions for. They're not just semantics.

1612
01:18:54.920 --> 01:18:56.560
<v Speaker 1>They actually have a very important point. I think what

1613
01:18:56.640 --> 01:18:59.600
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to stress in this debate was I believe

1614
01:18:59.680 --> 01:19:03.760
<v Speaker 1>that the position that you're presenting is relativistic at root,

1615
01:19:03.800 --> 01:19:08.239
<v Speaker 1>and it doesn't have a philosophical justification, which is needed. Certainly,

1616
01:19:08.319 --> 01:19:10.640
<v Speaker 1>we can be overly rational, but I think the orthodoxy,

1617
01:19:10.800 --> 01:19:16.199
<v Speaker 1>if it's practiced correctly traditionally, it actually has a good

1618
01:19:16.279 --> 01:19:19.399
<v Speaker 1>balance between the mystical, the existential experience that you have

1619
01:19:19.560 --> 01:19:25.880
<v Speaker 1>in the liturgy, in the practice of Hesekia, and the

1620
01:19:26.399 --> 01:19:29.520
<v Speaker 1>realm of what's logical and rational. So all the fathers

1621
01:19:29.880 --> 01:19:32.640
<v Speaker 1>did apologetics that they did these kind of debates, And

1622
01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:34.840
<v Speaker 1>if you are interested in the stuff that I've said,

1623
01:19:34.880 --> 01:19:36.880
<v Speaker 1>I would say just watch my video and I got

1624
01:19:36.920 --> 01:19:39.199
<v Speaker 1>a drone on. I would say, watch my video that

1625
01:19:39.319 --> 01:19:41.720
<v Speaker 1>deals with the prophecies of the Old Testament being fulfilled

1626
01:19:41.760 --> 01:19:43.760
<v Speaker 1>in Christ. And then I would say watch my video

1627
01:19:44.000 --> 01:19:48.600
<v Speaker 1>on Saint Athanasius and his critique of paganism, because he

1628
01:19:48.680 --> 01:19:51.399
<v Speaker 1>has a lot of the same arguments I made there.

1629
01:19:52.199 --> 01:19:55.399
<v Speaker 1>So thank you, great debate, great discussion. I'm really glad

1630
01:19:55.399 --> 01:19:57.239
<v Speaker 1>we kept it civil. We got heated, but we didn't

1631
01:19:57.279 --> 01:19:58.239
<v Speaker 1>get hateful.

1632
01:19:58.319 --> 01:20:02.960
<v Speaker 2>And this is a shining example of how we can

1633
01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:05.520
<v Speaker 2>get together and we can speak like gentlemen like in

1634
01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:07.439
<v Speaker 2>the West. This is what the West is based on

1635
01:20:07.680 --> 01:20:10.079
<v Speaker 2>is guys coming together and having your battle of wits

1636
01:20:10.119 --> 01:20:12.600
<v Speaker 2>and intellect. And even a guy like Jay who is

1637
01:20:12.640 --> 01:20:15.920
<v Speaker 2>a philosophical guy. Man, I'm just I'm beering the porch nationalism.

1638
01:20:15.960 --> 01:20:17.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm just a blue collar guy. The fact that he

1639
01:20:18.000 --> 01:20:19.479
<v Speaker 2>would bring me on and let me talk is just

1640
01:20:19.560 --> 01:20:22.039
<v Speaker 2>an example of how we can act civilly and be

1641
01:20:22.199 --> 01:20:25.479
<v Speaker 2>gentlemen and and in our quest to defeat the generacy.

1642
01:20:25.560 --> 01:20:28.199
<v Speaker 2>But real quick before we end, uh, may I give

1643
01:20:28.199 --> 01:20:30.319
<v Speaker 2>a plug to where people can find my content, mister Jay.

1644
01:20:30.520 --> 01:20:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I've got your your your link there below,

1645
01:20:32.960 --> 01:20:33.960
<v Speaker 1>but sure go ahead.

1646
01:20:34.239 --> 01:20:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you guys can find me on Twitter at Big

1647
01:20:37.079 --> 01:20:40.159
<v Speaker 2>Dave Martell, Gabin Minds at Dave Martell. You go subscribe

1648
01:20:40.159 --> 01:20:42.880
<v Speaker 2>to my YouTube channel which is called Dave mar Tell.

1649
01:20:43.039 --> 01:20:46.199
<v Speaker 2>You can also find me tonight on verbo timpestus YouTube

1650
01:20:46.279 --> 01:20:48.880
<v Speaker 2>channel with the Conduit, where we dig into all kinds

1651
01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:51.920
<v Speaker 2>of crazy esoteric conspiracy theories. And also find me on

1652
01:20:52.039 --> 01:20:55.640
<v Speaker 2>Wednesdays at a pm Eastern on Roffen Folk channel where

1653
01:20:55.680 --> 01:20:59.640
<v Speaker 2>I talk about all kinds of other heathen pagan context subjects,

1654
01:20:59.720 --> 01:21:01.520
<v Speaker 2>have all kinds of awesome interviews. Or you go to

1655
01:21:01.560 --> 01:21:03.479
<v Speaker 2>Amazon dot com pick up a copy of my book,

1656
01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:08.039
<v Speaker 2>The American Loyalist Proclamation of Moral Insurrection. Our founders selflessly

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<v Speaker 2>flung themselves at God's Grace's feet in the name of libertey.

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<v Speaker 3>Now they look down from their heavenly thrones and disgust.

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<v Speaker 3>Pick up your father's swords on the Republic and reclaim

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<v Speaker 3>what is yours. God wills it conquer or die. I

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<v Speaker 3>am big Dave Martell. Thank you everybody for tuning in

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<v Speaker 3>Hail Victory.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like the Viking. Alex Jones there all right man,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you good talk and yeah, so his links will

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<v Speaker 1>be below. Thank you guys for the super jazz. Thanksverybody

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<v Speaker 1>for watching checking out Jay's analysis. Be sure subscribe to

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<v Speaker 1>my stuff if you haven't, And until next time,