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Speaker 1: All right, we are going live and I want to

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know if you guys can hear me. Let me know

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in the Jays Analysis YouTube channel, audience, if you can

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hear our discussion before we start rambling and nobody's listening.

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I just want to make sure it says we can here.

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All Right, Dave talk a little bit, so can hear you?

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Speaker 2: Jack one chick too?

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Speaker 1: Everybody here, Dave? All right, it sounds like we're good. Okay, welcome.

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We finally found a person who wants to finally step

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up to the neo pagan heathen plate and play a

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little bit of that a little bit of that heathen

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baseball at the Heathen Diamond. We're gonna see if our

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opponent has the stuff he says he wanted to do it.

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So I'll tell you what so I don't I'm new

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to you. Tell my audience who you are, what took

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you down your path? Take as much time as you need.

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I'm gonna let you say whatever you want to say.

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So welcome to the show. Thank you for stepping up, Dave, absolutely,

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thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: And before I get started, like to thank you again

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for letting me come on here and have the opportunity

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to test my steel against a formidable opponent such as yourself.

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You are a master of your craft and had quite

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a few friends to tune into your content. Speak highly

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of you, so, you know, thank you for having me on,

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and thank you to everybody tuning in. You know, I

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appreciate all you guys, and hopefully this is a fruitful

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discussion and we walk away with this both learning something

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and going away with with more wisdom than we had before.

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But I'm big Dave Martel. I am a veteran of

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the podcast circuit. I have been involved in you know,

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all kinds of political nonsense. I ran madamericannetwork dot com.

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I've a notorious troll. I've been around. I've been around

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the block for quite a few years with all the stuff.

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But I am also a folkas then I practiced the

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faith of Aso true. I have been converted for you

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know about you the better about a decade. I've been

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practicing one. Before that, I was you know, researching, doing

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my research and everything like that. I was elected as Goati,

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which is like sort of like a like a priest

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of my kindred about six years ago. And it's just

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it's been a wonderful experience rediscovering my faith. However, as

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a child, I was raised kind of half asked Catholic,

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half asked Christian, kind of like you know how a

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lot of us are growing up with the boomer parents

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that you know, we don't really do. We go to

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go to church a few times a year, and you know,

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they you know, all the Golden Rule and they don't

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really understand the theology. But I do have some family

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that are very very well versed in the Catholic theology.

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And I'm not one of the autistic pay gang folks

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out there and that you know, go. I'll call people

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Christus all the time. I will call people cucks if

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they act like cucks or I think their position could

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be cucked. But I don't go out there and start

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war with Christians. I have so many wonderful Christian brothers

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and friends and family members of my life that yeah,

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I respect them. That is their path, that is what

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is that is their perennial truth. And I even have

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I have a few little statues to my my grandfather

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who was a devout Catholic, that I still have, and

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I regard them as sacred because it was It's not

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my faith, but it was my grandfather's faith, and my

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grandfather was a tremendous man. I have a statue of

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Saint Jude, statue of Saint Thomas Aquinas so so that

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I do certainly believe that there are good spiritual truths,

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perennial truths within the Christian theology and the Christian doctrine.

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But yeah, I converted to paganism focus also true about

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ten years ago, and yeah, I've been practicing ever since.

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And that that's about it. That's how I started.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the first thing I would ask is, uh, what

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are the the convincing things? What are the things that

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convinced you that that was the path to go? I

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mean like like why did you what was the Was

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there like a series of steps that you went through

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of like, oh, you know, our people are kind of

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being warred against in the media and so forth, and therefore,

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you know that should be expressed in my religious perspective,

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and so therefore I need a kindred that I don't

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really get at like a Novasordo church or a normany

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Catholic type of situation. Was it like a series of

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steps or did you have like a like a one

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book that you read that just kind of changed your

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mind or what was it that was really kind of

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the defining points that made you go that route.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean those are all kind of material reasons,

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and those are certainly positives when it comes to to Ostro,

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like the tribe, the kindred kind of format, the folkish

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for Matt, the uh, you know, just the idea of

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of your your ancestry also being tied with your spirituality.

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That's not what brought me to it. All of those

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things actually came later when we started getting into the

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more heated political climate and all of this stuff. And

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I became more aware of it as I get older

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into my adulthood and I had children and got married

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and stuff like that. But my, my, what drove me

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into my spirituality were spiritual experiences. I had spiritual experiences

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that I could not explain that we were parallel with

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a lot of what is talked about in our spiritual texts,

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which are the Edis, and just I've I just you know,

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I guess it was just revealed to me. I've found

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things by I don't believe in coincidence, but I kind

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of stumbled upon things and they resonated with me. And

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it's just all kind of came together and I just

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I just ended up here. I can't explain it one percent,

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you know, in material terms, but it was just a

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I feel that it was a path that I was

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meant to be on, and the you know, the gods

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revealed all of these wisdoms to me, and this is

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this is how I ended up here. The stuff that

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you're talking about, you know, those things are absolutely true,

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and those things are very true for what draw people

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in now. And I'm not saying anything bad about people

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that get drawn in for because they have a yearning

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or a cultural or ethnic yearning, or nationalist yearning, or

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a family kind of thing that they're lacking before, as

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you said, the Norman Catholic, and you know, so I'm

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not saying that those things are necessarily bad. In my

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experience was superior or anything of that nature. But my experience,

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my path into my faith was purely based on spiritual experiences.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So my first question would be, there's two points here,

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if one would be and I'm not trying to offend

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you or challenge the claim that you didn't have a

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spiritual experience, but number one, how do you know that

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those spiritual experiences are good or that they line up

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with what is good in some objective sense. And number two,

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I think the chief problem that I see in any

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kind of pagan view or any kind of approach like

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this is that it ultimately does kind of fall into relativism,

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because there's not really any way to justify or know

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that there is objective truth. There's really just everybody's kind

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of competing claims, and your subjective experiences are just as

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valid or or I mean, how could you measure your

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subjective experiences as to why this religion is true for

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you or why the spiritual experiences that you had were

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necessarily good? Maybe they were from an evil spirit or

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something like this? How do you adjudicate between the truth

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and the false, and the good and the evil? If

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it's if it's essentially a subjective type of system.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't necessarily say it's a subjective. I would say,

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you know what, Now, Now, I'm not a biblical scholar

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by any by any stretch, so correct me if if

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I ever like paraphrase anything, that's incorrect. But uh, what

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what did Christ say about knowing whether or not people

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or divine teachers were actually divine. He said, look at

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the look at the fruits of of their of their

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words or something like that. Correct, you know I look

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at go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Well, I would say that's one thing that we look at. Yeah,

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but he gave a lot of different, uh kind of

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test cases, litmus tests for how we know that you're

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in the falls. So just because in other words, I

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might I mean, if I already believe that what I

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am interested in is true, then I will I will

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interpret the fruits too to vindicate that. I'll have a

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kind of verification bias if I already believe something is true.

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So in other words, you kind of already have to

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have a system or a paradigm by which to judge

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the true in the false, to know if they are

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actually are quote fruits of that system.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's a that's an argument that a

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lot of times atheists used in order to kind of

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you know, beat up on on spiritual truths or perennial

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truths or things like that. But uh, with the thing

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that that Christ said, I measure the metric that I

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used to know whether or not my path is true

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is the fruit that came from it. You know, when

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I when I converted. I was, you know, I come

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from I mean, I caught poor, white trash. I came

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for a single mother household. I had a really rough

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early adulthood. I was really bad into drinking and partying

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and doing drugs, and I was pretty much a huge,

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just degenerate until I've you know, started feeling some kind

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of way and I met my wonderful wife and I

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started to, uh, you know, walk this path and practice

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uh ceremony and and really put my faith in my

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heart and my spirit and gave it to the gods.

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And from then I've I've done a complete just turn around.

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My life is completely turned around. I have a decent career,

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I have two beautiful, wonderful boys. I have you know,

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so many wonderful friends. My life is just the fruits

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of what has come from walking this path or just

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you know, immeasurable there. I've just been rewarded so much

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the gifts that I've been given or are obje.

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Speaker 1: But like so, I mean, similar things could be said

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about somebody who has a moral reform or a change

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of life that goes into any cult or religion. So

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in other words, a person could conceivably say the same

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things about going into scientology. A person could say the

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same things about Oh, I was a you know, a

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bad alcoholic and I got involved in AA and then

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I joined a I don't know, a yoga cult and

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it just completely changed my life. And so in other words,

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even still, I think it kind of misses the point

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that how do you know that the religion itself is

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true on the basis of the fact that some good

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things happen? When that same kind of litmus test could

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be applied to any different kind of group where people

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join it and they perhaps have positive effects in their

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life later, that doesn't necessarily prove that the system of

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belief itself is true.

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Speaker 2: Well you know number one, Like, I understand why you're

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using this argument, but this is essentially an atheist argument

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to kind of bring spiritual truth back down down and

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try to force it into material metrics and stuff. I mean,

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that argument could be used against people that say they've

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had spiritual experiences in Christianity, or how do we know

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that the Word of God is true? How do we

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know that the Bible is true? Well, you know this

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is that?

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Speaker 1: Well you say that, right, I use that argument a lot. Yeah,

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as a Christian apologist, yeah. So, But the fact that

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atheists use this argument doesn't mean that it's in quote

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atheist argument. But yeah, I'm atheists will use logic. That

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doesn't mean the logic comes from atheists.

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Speaker 2: But it comes down to what is the metric of good?

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How do we know that? What? How do we define good?

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What is what is these things that happened in my life?

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How are they good compared to somebody that joined scientology. Well,

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the things that that good that have been happened in

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my life are objectively good. They're objectively good. I mean

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I I had a family, I had children, I started

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to get financial success, I have a career, Like these

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things are all just all you know easily you know,

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they're just objectively good. Yea, somebody that's from that joins

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the yoga class that we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: But how do you how do you determine what's objectively good?

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And and now on what basis are there objective truths

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and principles?

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Speaker 2: Because well, how would you you define good? Define good?

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Speaker 1: Well, ultimately, it's a transcetional category that applies to God.

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So God is the ultimate absolute, and because he's omni

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present and omniscient, eternal, et cetera. That's the grounding that

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I have for any kind of a claim of that nature,

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any kind of a universal, absolute claim kind of makes

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sense with with belief in a single, universal personal God,

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Whereas if there's not that, then it kind of seems

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to be chaos and fate that that reigns, that rules

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the universe and there's not really any universal principles at all.

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Speaker 2: But you're saying that there is. You're a Unitarian obviously,

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so you're saying that there is a universal, uh primordial

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perennial truth.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, I'm a monotheist, I'm not a Unitarian.

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Speaker 2: I mean well, I mean we can get into that too.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's a specific heresy that that's kind

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of in was invented, you know, in the last few

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centuries after the Puritans, with you know, people like Horace

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Man and h. Thomas Jefferson. We're Unitarians, So that's a

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specific kind of Jovah's witness style type of cult.

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Speaker 2: My apologies, my apology.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying that it's monotheism is at unitarian But

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so how how does that I don't understand the argument here, So,

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so what if it's monotheists, how does.

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Speaker 2: That Okay, Well, if you want to talk about monotheistic,

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I actually disagree with the idea that European brands of

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Christianity are monotheistic. I think you know, you talk about

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you believe in the Trinity, correct, you believe in? Uh yeah,

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the Trinity you believe in? Do you believe in angels

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and saints and stuff like that? So how is that monotheism?

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Speaker 1: Well, because the source of all life, the source of

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all existence, the source of all those creative beings, as

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God the Father.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you you would pay homage to the saints,

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and pay homage to the angels, and pay homage to

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these these manifestations of the divine correct.

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Speaker 1: Right, because paying homage or reverence is different than worship.

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Speaker 2: So you essentially are a polytheist.

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Speaker 1: No, we consistently argue against polytheism because there's only one God,

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one divine nature.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a very similar concept. We believe in

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the overarching primordial divinity as you know, what Christians call God.

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And then like Christians, we have you know, our gods,

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which would be I guess sort of like you know,

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in the Christian pantheon. I guess like angels or lesser

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kind of entities and stuff like that, and then we

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have heroes who are we believe to be divinely inspired

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men like saints. So it's the exact same concept, but

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with different semantics.

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Speaker 1: No, it's actually very different concepts because we don't think

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that any of the saints or any of the angels

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actually possess the divine nature. So we have a very

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specific reason why we believe in a distinction between created

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and uncreated things. So the creative world has beginning in time,

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it's held in existence by God, and it has a

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certain te lose that God is determined for it. But

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that's different than the kind of being that God, that

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God is. And the reason that we are different from

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what you're talking about is because if you begin to

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blend the two and you kind of have these gradations

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or what would be maybe a chain of being idea

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amongst the Greeks, very similar to what you're talking about

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with hino theism, or that there's these gradations of participation

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in the divine nature and all this kind of stuff,

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it's really incoherent. So once we've adopted an incoherency about

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our starting point, the whole system kind of makes no

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sense because If the divine nature is kind of this

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beyond kind of great thing that everything participates in gradations,

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then it's not truly one. It's not truly simple, and

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we don't really know anything about it because every everything

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kind of gets melded into molded into that great oneness.

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This is the problem with all monistic religions. So what's

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unique about Christianity. The reason why the Trinity is different

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in this regard is that we don't believe in a complete, absolute,

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unknowable oneness or monism. And we also don't believe in

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a complete chaotic particularity where everything's crashing gets you, everything's

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just ruled by chaos. There's actually both unity and multiplicity

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are imperfect balance in God himself. It's not in perfect balance,

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and a whole bunch of chaotic gods and and you know,

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Zeus having sex with animals, turning into an animal, and

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having sex with women, and it's just it's all chaos

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and nonsense. That's another problem I think with that view.

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I'm not trying to get too off course, but there's

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not really any coherency to this, to the pagan conception.

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We have a very worked out philosophical and theological perspective

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that we believe comes from revelation, and what we get

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in paganism is much more of a kind of sort

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of primitive anti philosophic bias. And so that's why there's

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naturally a rejection of ideas like objective truth. But the

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problem is that we see that that I think those

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religions still need and want objective truth just as much

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as the atheist wants to have an objective universal principle

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or truth, but he doesn't have any consistent way to

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talk about it or justify such a thing or give

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a coherent reason why there would be such a thing

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in his worldview. The same criticism applies to the neopagan

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or the or the Heathen or whatever, that if chaos

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and fate rule these things, then you really don't even

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know if all of reality has this great oneness of

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divinity that all the other beings participate in by gradation,

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it's just just something that you subjectively read somewhere or

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made up or and then the next guy could come

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along and say, no, I am actually the incarnation of Odin.

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There is no you know, I mean, how on what

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basis is one of these things true? And the others not.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I'd like to reject. You know,

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sometimes there's people get used to using like weaponized language,

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And one of the examples of weaponized language that you're

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kind of rolling out here is saying, oh, well, you

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believe in the oneness, but it gets convoluted and clogged

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up because then you have all this chaotic stuff that

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comes down down the And I reject the idea of

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it being chaotic. In fact, it's very very orderly, the

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understanding of our gods and the hierarchy of our gods

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and the eschatology around all of it.

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Speaker 1: So but but I mean, the whole history of various

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mythologies and different cultures. Isn't the gods fighting with one

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another and cheating with one another and stealing wives and

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connecting humans and practicing vctiality. That's not in the history

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of the gods.

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Speaker 2: Well no, but you know it kind of you're boiling

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it down. I mean, you're you're you're a spiritual guy.

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You understand when you read scripture that you you're not

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supposed to get hanged hung up on the details. Atheists

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make this argument all the time. They'll read like the

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story of I don't excuse me, let me finish, please.

356
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But you know, the atheists use the They'll use the

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example of the story of Job, and they say that,

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you know how the story of Job happens, and you know,

359
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God punishes Job and to prove to the devil that

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you know, he's he's so loyal to God and this

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and that, and then atheists say, well, how do you

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you know, why would you worship a god that does that?

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And then you know, and so you understand that when

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you look at that story, you're not looking at necessarily

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the details. You take a step back and you draw

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the universal spiritual truth that comes from that story, the

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moral teaching of that story. So when you look at

368
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the Bible has tons of who are regarded as divinely

369
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inspired men or god like men and stuff that dude,

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degenerate shit that do bad shit, you know. I mean,

371
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it's like so to say that, you know, because there's

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these stories where the gods do things, you know, that

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are lousy, like for example, the Saga of Volley, where

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Odin is so angry about the killing of his beloved

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son Balder that he goes and he essentially date rapes

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a giantess woman, a princess in front of her father,

377
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so they can give birth to a child that goes

378
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and murders and gets revenge for the killing of his son.

379
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I mean that sounds awful, you, I mean, it sounds degenerate.

380
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But if you take a step back, you understand the

381
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nature of Odin, and you understand that Odin is he

382
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sees all things. He sees all of time, past, president

383
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in future happening simultaneously, and then you go on to

384
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understand that Volley goes on to be one of the

385
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most crucial characters within the later within the cycle of time.

386
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Speaker 1: So, first of all, it's a big difference between saying

387
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that David sinned and God or Jesus committed sin. Those

388
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are different things because we believe that God is God,

389
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and God doesn't He's not fallen, so he's not going

390
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to commit the kinds of actions that you would speak

391
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of in terms of that kind of deity. And so

392
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that's very different from saying, well, the Bible has men

393
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committing atrocious actions. Yeah, because that's part of the mess

394
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of the Bibles, that we're falling human beings. That's why

395
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we need we need, we need God. But again, how

396
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do you know when again, I think it. I think

397
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it kind of begs the question to say, well, but

398
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you know, that's why you got to step back and

399
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,599
not get hung up on the details. I mean, that's

400
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really what I'm asking, though, is like, on what basis

401
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,640
do we know when something is a revealed truth about

402
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,680
Odin and when it's a thing where we say, now,

403
00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:30,359
let's let's not really read that literally, let's step back

404
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and find a universal principle. And I mean, there's there's

405
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no clear way to adjudicate this, and the fact that

406
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every single Pagan could just come along and say what

407
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he thinks, uh, I mean, maybe you have the true

408
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,839
pagan revelation. But what I'm saying is, how do you

409
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know to how to adjudicate the two? And the reason

410
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I'm asking that is to read to lead to kind

411
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of a clearer issue. To make this clear is that

412
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there are universal principles like reason and logic, mathematics. These

413
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things are not culturally relative, right, not things that we

414
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,400
just make up as social constructs. The forms and patterns

415
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,920
that we see in nature, concepts about logical laws, syllogisms,

416
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,880
and so forth, they're not They're not human constructs. They're

417
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actually operant principles in the world. And what that suggests

418
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is that is that there is a consistent pattern of

419
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reason and doing reasoning. And what I get from you

420
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,319
is that's a kind of an atheistic approach. What we

421
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want is to return to spirituality. So you kind of

422
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set reason against spirituality. We don't do that. We believe

423
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human reason is perfectly in line with with spirituality.

424
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Speaker 2: First, I didn't I didn't imply that. What I'm saying

425
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is that atheists are essentially just they're here to tear

426
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They're Discordian, They're just here to tear it down. They're

427
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,799
just using weapons. They're not. I mean, I agree with

428
00:22:47,839 --> 00:22:51,400
you entirely. If you if you in uh in Heathen theology,

429
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:57,039
we say the same thing. We know, uh human nature, logic, reason, mathematics,

430
00:22:57,079 --> 00:22:59,319
all of these things are completely in tune with our

431
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,240
spiritual flofilosophy. Like you're just you're talking about the mathematics,

432
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,960
and I just briefly watched some of your video where

433
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,720
you talked about numerology and stuff, and that nailed it

434
00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:10,400
on the head. I would say that same exact stuff,

435
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,759
except I would switch out some of the language that

436
00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:15,480
I use. You we're describing kind of the same thing,

437
00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:21,440
except the argument here is coming from you know, essentially semantics.

438
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,039
It's coming from semantics, it's not.

439
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 1: It's very different to say that there's one God with

440
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,279
omniscience and who, by his divine providence, is the basis

441
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by which we ground these principles in universals that are

442
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,039
offer in nature and by and contrasting that was saying, well,

443
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there's a chain of being and that the top there's

444
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odin and then there's all these kind of conflicting you know,

445
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gods or whatever. So I mean, are the gods fighting

446
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or not? Are they Are they just representations of symbolic

447
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principles or are they actual entities that are fighting out

448
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there in the world.

449
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Speaker 2: I mean all of the above. It's here's the thing

450
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,559
about in uh in Heathenry, we don't try to pretend

451
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that we understand and our little human minds can express

452
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and really define what is divinity? What are the cosmic

453
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mechanics of the universe. We're not gonna So we have

454
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the gods to teach us it through story and allegory

455
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and scripture, how to understand it and behave properly during

456
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our short time on this life. In our earthly vessels

457
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until we pass on to the next life.

458
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Speaker 1: How do you know? How do you know when you're

459
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,480
supposed to enact revenge? And how do you know when

460
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you're supposed to not? I mean, where there's no consistent ethic.

461
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,559
Speaker 2: In this at all? There is absolutely.

462
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,039
Speaker 1: How do you know? How do you know what? When

463
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,799
is a good action? When is a virtuous action?

464
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Speaker 2: When is it not?

465
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Speaker 1: When are you supposed to go to war? When you're

466
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,960
supposed to have a vendetta? When are you supposed to not?

467
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Speaker 2: I mean, it says clear and day in the ed

468
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,119
is it says in the Havamal. There's there's plenty of

469
00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:55,319
clear as day, succinct descriptions on how you should behave

470
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,640
in certain things, how things should be done, and how

471
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to live your life and how to make decisions and

472
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stuff like that.

473
00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: However, how do you know those aren't the How do

474
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,920
you know those aren't the details that don't really matter

475
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,079
that you're supposed to overlook and find a universal principle.

476
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:07,799
Speaker 2: How do you know that the ones in your scripture

477
00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:09,279
are well.

478
00:25:09,079 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: We have a we have a way of a pattern

479
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,920
of knowing this, because it's not just me reading this

480
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,359
book there's a whole history that goes into where this

481
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,720
came from and fulfilled prophecies. There's no fulfilled prophecies in

482
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:20,559
in Uh in.

483
00:25:20,559 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 2: Paganism, absolutely there is, absolutely there is Ragnarok. Look at

484
00:25:26,079 --> 00:25:28,480
look at the story of Uh. You know, the cyclical

485
00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:31,319
nature of time. It describes to a t the cyclical

486
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,759
nature of civilization, and it's coincides contradiction if no, no, no, no

487
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,079
no no, it coincides with the stories that come into Vedas.

488
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,720
What they talk about in Sonata Dharma is like when

489
00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:42,839
they describe the Yugos.

490
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: Those are completely different philosophies there just because they are,

491
00:25:46,559 --> 00:25:49,559
just because you find a similarity. The basis of that

492
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,119
religion is that you need to uh destroy your ego

493
00:25:53,319 --> 00:25:57,039
and and find unification with the thusness of the universe.

494
00:25:57,079 --> 00:25:59,400
That's why you see, that's why you see Yogis sitting

495
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,319
out there in their shit, because that religion is ridiculous.

496
00:26:02,519 --> 00:26:04,519
It's not the same religion as what you're talking about.

497
00:26:04,559 --> 00:26:07,200
So what you do is cafeteria style, pick and choose

498
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:08,880
what you want from each one of these traditions to

499
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,519
call to concoct the thing that you think makes it

500
00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:12,960
look all the same that's false.

501
00:26:13,079 --> 00:26:15,519
Speaker 2: First of all, you're you're implying that I'm saying that

502
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,680
the totality, the entirety of all of Hinduism is exactly

503
00:26:19,759 --> 00:26:21,599
the same as that. You know, what I'm talking about

504
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,240
is the original scriptures written in the Vedas are hail

505
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,759
from a similar ancestral spiritually philosophical root. And we know

506
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,200
that in science, we know that we've uncovered these people,

507
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,160
the the you know, the Indo Arians, they all hail

508
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,640
from the same kind of root philosophy, and that's where

509
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,839
it all came from. Now to get what philosophy comes from,

510
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,119
it's called proto Indo European.

511
00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: Oh so, in other words, it took as it took

512
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,480
secular academics to dig up and prove what is the

513
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:57,359
true revelation that's the skeletal thing that's been corroded throughout

514
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,559
all these millennia, which you're arguing is somehow.

515
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: In some skeletons, you're going to deny truth prophecy. By

516
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,240
the way, so what you're saying is you're going to

517
00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:10,440
not deny truth because it comes from a source that

518
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:11,640
you don't like I thought you were just said.

519
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: I'm saying that you are your arguments here are all

520
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,119
subjective because you're lying not they are. You don't see

521
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:19,799
that they are, but they are because you're relying on

522
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,839
principles that are mathematical, that are universal, that are that

523
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,279
are supposedly scientific. But the arguments that you're giving to

524
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,960
ground this are subjective. That's the problem.

525
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 2: It's not subjective. You just said a few moments ago

526
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,920
that you are in line with logic and reason and

527
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,599
science and and what we do know and what are

528
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:40,400
mathematical truths. If we uncover a mathematical truth, if somebody

529
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,440
that we don't like that we're not in line with

530
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,400
discovers it, does that make it not true? No, that

531
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,799
would be that would be a sinful act, right to

532
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,000
deny something that is absolutely true, you know. So, I

533
00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:53,680
don't understand why you would want to deny something or

534
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,799
expect me to deny something that is a universal truth.

535
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: I think you're again you're begging the question because I'm

536
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,559
asking how you're getting a universal truth or a universal claim,

537
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,720
and then when you explain where it comes from and

538
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:08,960
how you get it, it's a bunch of places that

539
00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:11,279
you go to that don't make sense, that aren't co

540
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,079
that aren't consistent with the philosophy that you have. That's

541
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:14,880
what I'm trying to say.

542
00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:17,039
Speaker 2: Well, I just I just you know, no, I made

543
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:19,359
the case that it is consistent, and in fact it's

544
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,079
consistent that it's and I'm making the case like if

545
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,519
you read do Mozill, he points out many, many, many

546
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:28,279
different religions across the Northern Hemisphere, and even in you're

547
00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:31,599
talking like Iranian and like Zoastrianism, and all of these

548
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,319
faiths have similar universal truths. And how do you know

549
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,640
what they are? That's the question.

550
00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: You're just saying these things. There's no clear there's no

551
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:41,799
You've not given a single clear example of how do

552
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,079
I know in a certain instance whether I should enactive

553
00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:47,160
indetta or whether I should run away from it? Well,

554
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,240
that's say, Well, there's a lot of general general principles.

555
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: Up we're talking about. How how do I know that

556
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,440
it's universally true? How do I know that my spiritual

557
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,160
philosophy is true? I know? Well, number one, and how

558
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,839
do I know that the mathematics and the metrics in

559
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,039
which I used to measure it is true are in

560
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,680
fact true? And I'm saying that one of my metrics,

561
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:09,160
one of my my pieces of evidence. Is that it

562
00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:12,519
coincides and it's parallel with many, many, many other cultures

563
00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:14,720
around the world that came to the same conclusion and

564
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:15,880
have even more more.

565
00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: That's just, that's just, that's just an appeal to uh

566
00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:21,720
a large number. That's a fallacy. It doesn't matter how

567
00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:27,640
many people. That's appeal to consensus is a fallacy.

568
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,319
Speaker 2: But that's how science works. How does how do we

569
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:31,640
come out? How do we establish that?

570
00:29:31,799 --> 00:29:34,119
Speaker 1: As you about scientific consensus, I'm asking you for a

571
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,759
logical justification, and you gave an appeal to consensus.

572
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,359
Speaker 2: No, but what we're doing is we're I'm proving that

573
00:29:39,559 --> 00:29:43,519
consensus is a legitimate thing. It's a legitimate system all

574
00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:47,839
the sciences fallacy, it's but it's not. It's it's absolutely

575
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,119
based on consense, and consensus is the whole reason we

576
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,640
have scientific theory in the first place.

577
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,319
Speaker 1: Appeal to consensus is a fallacy.

578
00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:58,319
Speaker 2: But you asked me what evidence, and I'm giving you

579
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,559
one piece of evidence. I mean, you can I didn't

580
00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:01,119
ask for evidence.

581
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,799
Speaker 1: Also like fallacy, So there's a difference between a a

582
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,720
logical justification and empirical evidence or data. I agree with

583
00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:11,440
you that we can bring forth pieces of evidence and data.

584
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:14,920
But I asked a more specific question about logical justification

585
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,559
for a claim or knowledge of a claim or a

586
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,920
metaphysical principle that you're talking about, And you can't justify

587
00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:23,400
that by giving me an appeal to consensus, which is

588
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:23,920
a fallacy.

589
00:30:24,559 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I also don't. I don't like the

590
00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:28,079
idea of logical fallacies because it's just a way to

591
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:29,119
cop out of an argument.

592
00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:31,799
Speaker 1: So no, it's not you believe You just said you

593
00:30:31,839 --> 00:30:33,640
believe in logic and universal principles.

594
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:35,759
Speaker 2: Yeah I know you don't. No, No, I totally do.

595
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,839
Speaker 1: You don't believe in the logical fallacies?

596
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: You don't, Well, I will take I'll take a logic

597
00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:43,880
and reason and scientific consensus and real world evidence over

598
00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:47,960
just some like subjective you know, argumentative you know tactic.

599
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:51,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot. The the appeal to consensus is not

600
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,680
a subjective tactic. It's it is a tactical fallacy. Do

601
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,079
you not understand what fallacies are?

602
00:30:56,359 --> 00:30:58,039
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah I do. But it's just it's just some

603
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,920
ship that some guy made up. So he get it.

604
00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:01,759
Speaker 1: Now you just have loss of debate.

605
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,119
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay, but yeah, let's get back. Okay, let's

606
00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:06,960
get let's get back to the to this stuff here.

607
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,480
But what was it? What was the original topic? We

608
00:31:09,559 --> 00:31:12,319
kind of like went went crazy around in some crazy.

609
00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: So we were talking about, uh, the ideas of the

610
00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:18,599
gods and the ideas of I was talking about fate

611
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,400
and the problems that I see in kind of trying

612
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,480
to find a basis for for paganism in in like

613
00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:31,079
a perennialist approach. I did a debate a few months

614
00:31:31,079 --> 00:31:32,839
ago with a guy who's a perennialist. It was a

615
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,160
very similar discussion to what you and I are having.

616
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,039
So basically, what I'm saying is that I just see

617
00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:41,440
a bunch of conflicting approaches that don't really have a

618
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:45,640
unified vantage point from which to try to to do ethics,

619
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,279
to try to I'm not saying that in your own

620
00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:50,319
life an experience, you don't have good things happen to you,

621
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:51,960
or you don't do good things, or you don't have

622
00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:54,880
true experiences. I'm not saying anything like that, or that

623
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,720
everything you're saying is false. I'm just saying that when

624
00:31:56,759 --> 00:31:58,880
I look at the philosophy of the worldview that you have,

625
00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:01,480
when I look at the ethical claims of that system.

626
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:03,359
When I look at the metaphysics of that system, when

627
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,720
I look at how you know things and how you

628
00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:09,720
believe and have come to believe that the the addas

629
00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:11,880
or whatever are a kind of revelation. I'm saying that

630
00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:14,480
to me, that's where it kind of breaks down. That's MYRT.

631
00:32:14,839 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: Now I will completely admit to you, and I'm gonna

632
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,799
it's gonna be completely honest, and I know you're gonna

633
00:32:18,799 --> 00:32:21,680
you're gonna jump on me on this, but you know

634
00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:24,960
it's it's it's fact that a lot of our our history,

635
00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:27,319
our artifacts, a lot of our our our literature, and

636
00:32:27,359 --> 00:32:29,400
a lot of our stuff is lost in time and

637
00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:31,400
we have to do a lot of stuff to put

638
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,160
it back together. And we have a lot we still

639
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,160
have some work to do to put the our faith

640
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,039
back together. And that's why we were called. I reject neopagan,

641
00:32:40,079 --> 00:32:43,519
the word neopagan. We are a reconstructionist religion. We are

642
00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:47,079
reconstructing and you're automatically, I know what you're gonna say.

643
00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:48,720
You're gonna say, well, if it's not all together and

644
00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:51,480
you don't have all the pieces, why would you follow it? Well,

645
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:54,920
because you know, because the gods are real, Because divinity

646
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:57,559
is real because this is the way that divinity uh

647
00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:02,039
speaks with me and every man to understand divinity. And

648
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,400
we need to get away from materialism. And this is

649
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,559
my path out of materialism, and this is the path

650
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:09,880
for many people out of materialism. And it's objective that

651
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,119
the fruits of what we're doing and what we're enacting

652
00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:16,480
are good. We're getting people people stop, you know, when

653
00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:19,480
you in as true community, people stop watching porn, they

654
00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:22,079
get married, they have kids, they give up drugs, they

655
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,160
get good jobs. We do, we build communities, We give

656
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,480
positive things to people's lives, and so you know, to

657
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:31,640
say that, you know, yeah, we we are a reconstructive movement.

658
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,279
And I'm not gonna I can't debate that position to

659
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,079
like because it's true, and I will one hundred percent

660
00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:41,240
admit that. But the fact that it is does it

661
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,519
take away from the the the objectively good and objectively

662
00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:47,240
true things that we're doing in society and beating back

663
00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:50,799
the clown world degeneracy that all of us here, you know, you, me,

664
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,880
everybody listening, we all hate this, this postmodernist clown world garbage.

665
00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:58,319
We all see that it's it's it's trash, This is

666
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,920
our formula. This is my formula, and this is what

667
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:03,799
has resonated with me and what has been the best

668
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:06,920
path for me and for many many, many thousand millions

669
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,920
of us. So that's that's what I got to say

670
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:09,599
about that there.

671
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,639
Speaker 1: So let me give you a hypothetical. Let's say that,

672
00:34:12,519 --> 00:34:15,519
Let's say I have a dream, and I'm being serious,

673
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:17,800
I'm not trying to be a clown. I'm like, look,

674
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,800
what if I had a dream and I felt like

675
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,440
it was my duty to restore the true teachings of

676
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,519
Peyonic Egypt. And so what I do is I go

677
00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:30,480
and I kind of construct from all of the from

678
00:34:30,519 --> 00:34:34,159
the Mempha, the Memphi, the Memphi Creation Document, and the

679
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,159
Hermitica and these different ancient texts that we believe come

680
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:39,159
from Egypt. And I put forth a kind of a

681
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,719
skeletal approach, and then I build a pyramid out in

682
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,920
my backyard and I get it going, and I say that,

683
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,519
you know, the true Faluronic religion requires I have discovered

684
00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:52,559
this through my own research, and I've actually found some

685
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:55,679
scholars that will back me up on this. We've discovered

686
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,679
that everybody who follows my cult that they need to

687
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,559
offer their all the hottest daughters all need to be

688
00:35:04,679 --> 00:35:09,559
given to me. And that's that's divine phyronic revolution revelation.

689
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,480
I am like wadib, I am the god Emperor. So

690
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,840
how would you say that any of this is wrong?

691
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:19,960
How would you say that any of that's incorrect or

692
00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:23,440
on what basis? Because I'm going to say, yeah, but bro,

693
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:27,320
it's objectively true that I am helping out these hotties

694
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,480
because when I'm laying the pipe to my harem of hotties,

695
00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:34,639
I'm given the best possible world for all human beings

696
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,360
by more and more offspring coming from JD.

697
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 2: Well, what is what? What? What is the fruit of

698
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:42,280
this guy?

699
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,039
Speaker 3: Like you?

700
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: What are you? What are you proving? How are you

701
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:47,920
religion that I have constructed? Those are good fruits, bro,

702
00:35:48,599 --> 00:35:50,880
that's that. But that's not fruits. That's just claims like

703
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,800
you got to produce something to show that you have

704
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:53,880
veg I.

705
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 1: Really do this, and I really do have a harem

706
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,679
and a whole bunch of uh supermodel babes and I

707
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,639
and I act like I'm a god emperor, Like, how

708
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,719
is that not the fruit's consistent with my revelation in

709
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:07,320
my religion?

710
00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 2: Well, how would if a guy came out like that,

711
00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:13,960
that said he is the next Messiah, and how would

712
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:14,480
you take him?

713
00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: And he could prove it, well, I would argue with

714
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,639
him the same way I'm arguing with you is that

715
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,000
these these contracts kind of break down because you ultimately

716
00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:24,360
have when you're gonna compare these kinds of systems, you

717
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,760
have to go back to things like logic. You have

718
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,000
to go back to things like universal claims and principles,

719
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,719
and that's gonna involve pulling out things like logical fallacies,

720
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,840
which I guess you said it doesn't really matter.

721
00:36:36,559 --> 00:36:38,599
Speaker 2: Well, do you know I actually agree with you one

722
00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:41,599
hundred percent? Yah. You were is twenty nineteen, like we

723
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,079
we're a current year. So it's going to be kind

724
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:46,599
of hard for a guy to prove to me that

725
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,599
he is, you know, the son of Odin and he's

726
00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:53,400
here to establish galactic pagan supremacy and he's got a

727
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,400
whole harem full of you know. Okay, but let's say

728
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:56,639
you're not.

729
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: Let's say that I do this off over on my

730
00:36:58,559 --> 00:37:01,440
own libertarian island somewhere and I'm not even messing with

731
00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:03,559
your people. Your people. What I'm saying is, is there

732
00:37:03,559 --> 00:37:05,280
any basis that you have to say what I'm doing

733
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:05,639
is wrong.

734
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: I mean, sure, if you're if you're going against the

735
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,440
the you know, principles of Frith and oath set forth

736
00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:15,599
within the the halve of mall and within the head

737
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,000
is then you're you're not doing constructing.

738
00:37:18,079 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm constructing the true Pharonic religion.

739
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, okay, so number one, if you're constructing the

740
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,639
Egyptian religion, I would question you, you know, right away,

741
00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:30,000
because you're not Egyptian. You're you're a white guy obviously.

742
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: So, but there's a good argument to be made that

743
00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:34,480
the upper class of Egypt, the upper cast were actually

744
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,880
uh perhaps Arian, So I actually agree with that.

745
00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: But but even so, but even so, so, what why

746
00:37:41,039 --> 00:37:41,719
do I have to.

747
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,599
Speaker 1: Be part of that racial h haplo group in order

748
00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:49,719
to be that maybe maybe the gods have donned me

749
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,920
the new initiator of the new Pharonic religion.

750
00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: Well okay, so this this gets into the the debate

751
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:03,239
of focism versus universalism and perennialism, and that divinity. In

752
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,440
our school of thought, divinity is expressed differently among different

753
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,679
peoples because different people are you know, as we know

754
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,360
in these you know, in these circles out here on

755
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,840
the internet. Different people are are biologically different, they think differently,

756
00:38:18,119 --> 00:38:21,400
they have different attributes, they have evolved in different places.

757
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:24,159
They're just we're just obviously different. You know, it's not

758
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,199
one race, the human race. So obviously when something comes down,

759
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,440
you know, when they're divinely inspired, they will express divinity

760
00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:34,760
in different ways, and that is why it's different. We don't.

761
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,679
We don't. So I could look at.

762
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with my with my wad deep God

763
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,559
Emperor cult. I'm the Quizat's hotter rock. I gotta hear them.

764
00:38:43,679 --> 00:38:44,280
Nothing wrong with that.

765
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 2: Well, there is something wrong with that because you're just

766
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,519
coming out with it. You're not. You're there's no basis

767
00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:51,760
in ancestry that shows that it's a tradition.

768
00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you just said that you had spiritual experiences

769
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,480
that led you to your religion. So I'm saying the

770
00:38:57,559 --> 00:39:00,880
same thing. I have had a spiritual experience. It happened

771
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:02,679
in a dream. I was told that I need to

772
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,400
set up the pyramid in my backyard. On what basis

773
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,519
is that going to be degenerate?

774
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,079
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, number one, it's it's not like Okay, So

775
00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:18,159
here's the fundamental misunderstanding about Heathenry is that people that

776
00:39:18,599 --> 00:39:21,920
look through a universalist lens still keep looking through a

777
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,719
universalist lens. It's not a universal religion that you could

778
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,239
just pick up. It's not something that you could just practice.

779
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,159
It's not Buddhism, it's not Christianity. It's not something to use.

780
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:32,960
It is an ancestral tradition.

781
00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:37,199
Speaker 1: It is a okay, But ancestral traditions are particular, right,

782
00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:41,960
They're specific areas or locales within history, geographical places and

783
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:45,239
so forth. But earlier in the debate you were making

784
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,960
a point to try to say that the point of

785
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,960
Odin is that he is a connection to or a

786
00:39:50,039 --> 00:39:53,599
manifestation of universal logical laws and principles in mathematics. Is

787
00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:55,639
that's why those two things don't make sense.

788
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,119
Speaker 2: I'll make it sense. Make it makes sense right now.

789
00:39:58,519 --> 00:40:02,559
Odin is the german Man. Is the Germanic deity that

790
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,360
has come to explain to us of Germanic descent how

791
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:10,480
divinity works. He speaks our language, he looks like us,

792
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,400
he is he is part of us. He's the guy

793
00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:16,960
that came to teach us how divinity works. That's that's

794
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:17,440
what that is.

795
00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:19,559
Speaker 1: But how does he look like you, if he's the

796
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,840
ultimate perennial god nature, that's beyond all things.

797
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 2: We mean, look at the depictions of him when he

798
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,199
reveals himself to people. Yeah, that's how he manifests. That's

799
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,480
how people understand him, that's how people have seen him,

800
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,280
that's how people depict him. That's how he's expressed in

801
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:36,559
our folklore.

802
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 1: And that's universal, but he appears to specific cultures.

803
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,679
Speaker 2: Odin is not universal. Odin is not universal. Divinity is universal.

804
00:40:46,559 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 1: Okay, So is it the same principle that's revealing truths

805
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,000
to all these different religions over time and space that

806
00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:55,320
maybe it's not Odin, but it's like an avatar of

807
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:56,800
this same divine principle.

808
00:40:57,039 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like an equivalent of Odi.

809
00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: What's that it's perennialism basically.

810
00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 2: Essentially, essentially it is a very similar to perennialism.

811
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,119
Speaker 1: Okay. So the problem with perennialism is that you can't clearly,

812
00:41:11,199 --> 00:41:14,280
just clearly say what is degeneracy and what's not. Is

813
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,239
uh a giant orgy of but sex? Is that degenerate

814
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:20,360
or is that just part.

815
00:41:20,199 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 2: Of the right absolutely degenerates it's a degenerate Why on

816
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,960
what basis. Well, because it's a it's a dishonorable act,

817
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,000
it is a disgraceful act, it's a it's a an

818
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:31,760
act of the flesh.

819
00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: That's a that's a reification.

820
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: Okay you Okay, so it's bad because it's bad. No, okay,

821
00:41:40,119 --> 00:41:44,440
So within within USO true, we understand that. Uh for uh.

822
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,599
In order to achieve a higher level in order to

823
00:41:49,199 --> 00:41:51,079
like what you should strive for in your in your

824
00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:53,880
life is you should find a balance between all of

825
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,719
the all of the natures of being, all of your

826
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,519
levels of existence, which you I'm sure, I mean, I

827
00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:02,840
know you Plato, Guy Plato talked about the tripartite soul.

828
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,280
Many other people, philosophers talked about the tripartite soul. Everybody

829
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,480
understands tripartite soul. It appears in all European spiritual philosophies.

830
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,719
Same thing. In order for you to ascend to a

831
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,280
level of awakening, to a level of I guess a

832
00:42:16,599 --> 00:42:21,239
spiritual oneness, you must balance mind, body, and spirit. In

833
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,239
order to balance them, you must master them and to

834
00:42:24,519 --> 00:42:27,679
be like kind of a slave to just the carnal

835
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,159
Thurst's is the opposite of is the opposite of that.

836
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,400
It's anus worship. It's worship of the material, and that

837
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:36,519
is degenerate.

838
00:42:36,639 --> 00:42:39,679
Speaker 1: Okay, But Plato also thought playing around the little boys

839
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:40,159
was good.

840
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't mean everything he said was good, you know.

841
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're back at the pick and choose cafeteria approach.

842
00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 2: You're picking it chuse it too. You like Plato, I

843
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,480
don't tell me you don't like Plato, and then you.

844
00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:51,519
Speaker 1: Must not be you must not be familiar with what

845
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:53,679
I talk about, because that critique Plato more than I

846
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,599
praise Plato. I mean, yeah, I talk about when I

847
00:42:55,639 --> 00:42:58,960
think he says things correct. But so most of my

848
00:42:59,079 --> 00:42:59,920
talks are critiques.

849
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: But you are picking and choose, and you say that

850
00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:03,159
he does say some good stuff.

851
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 1: But I believe, but I have a basis for him.

852
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,159
Believe in universal logical principles that directly relate to the

853
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,639
mind of a personal God. And you're telling me that

854
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,400
it's both subjective and irrational and coherent and rational at

855
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,519
the same time. That's the problem. There's a dialectic between

856
00:43:17,559 --> 00:43:20,320
a universal rationality that you want to have to make

857
00:43:20,519 --> 00:43:25,079
truth claims and to say something is objectively wrong in X,

858
00:43:25,199 --> 00:43:27,159
Y and Z cases. And then on the other hand,

859
00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:30,199
you're saying, well, I can't really say because in our religion,

860
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,119
it's just it's based on my people group, this revelation

861
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,480
to Germanic peoples. That's not universal. So what's the problem

862
00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:40,320
is that there's there's an attempt to have both things

863
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,400
at the same time, and it's based on again a

864
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,760
kind of a dialectic. And I think that again, this

865
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,559
goes back to the Trinity. This is one of the

866
00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:49,199
reasons why of the Trinity resolves this problem of one

867
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,800
and many is because we don't believe that there's an

868
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,880
ultimacy to either unity or to particularity and the many

869
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,639
that's out there. We believe that God is both one

870
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,960
and many, but ultimately there's one, one personal God. So

871
00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:05,119
so that's the reason and basis for how we can

872
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:09,639
have a logical approach to adjudicating between true claims false claims,

873
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,880
true religions false religions is that it's not subjective. It's

874
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,480
it's objective, and it's not just saying it's objective. There's

875
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,280
actually a logical basis for how there are objective truth claims.

876
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: Now, this goes back to why I think it's a

877
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,639
lot of it's semantic because like when I hear you

878
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,239
talk about, well, it's the separation between one and many.

879
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,159
We just have the one and then there's the many.

880
00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:31,159
But then you also pay homage to the many. But

881
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,800
then it's not it's not worship, it's homage. It's different.

882
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,360
It's just a bunch of these semantic arguments. I feel

883
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,679
like we're both like we're both wearing like green shirts,

884
00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:41,239
except you're telling me your shirt's not green.

885
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not semantics, because even you yourself have

886
00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:48,679
already said that the I mean, presumably the terminology that

887
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,719
you would differ in when you read the Vedas and

888
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,360
you find things that you don't agree with, that's on

889
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,000
the basis of the terminology and the words that are there.

890
00:44:56,119 --> 00:45:01,039
So yeah, all all differences are semantic. That what's But

891
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,599
but semantics matter because words match up to reality.

892
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 2: Well, what you're saying is that there's a universal mathematic

893
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,920
understanding of things that create an objective metric to measure things. Right, Sure,

894
00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:14,280
that's what I'm doing. I'm saying that you know, in

895
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:17,079
this these guys came up with two plus two equals four.

896
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,239
These guys came up with two plus two equal four.

897
00:45:19,599 --> 00:45:21,880
My stuff says two plus two equals four. Therefore two

898
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,320
plus two must equal four. That's what I'm coming up with.

899
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,599
Speaker 1: That is the metric, except that that's not what you

900
00:45:27,679 --> 00:45:29,320
were saying in the first half of the discussion. I

901
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,519
was saying no, because mathematics is directly related to logic.

902
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,119
Logical laws can be formulated most of the time, many

903
00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:40,199
times in mathematical forms and principles. So that means that

904
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,360
you can't, for example, deny fallacies because the logical fallacy

905
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,960
is nothing more than a specific example of something that

906
00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:50,400
is a formal logical principle, and those logical principles are

907
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,840
essentially the same as mathematical laws, like if you talk

908
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,760
about a universal or universal negative universal claim, those are

909
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,360
very similar to things in math, math claims, and math sets.

910
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,280
So to, on the one hand, say that and then

911
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,960
say that that that, for example, the informal fallacies don't

912
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,400
matter shows that that's not really in your mind when

913
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,239
you approach your perspective or your worldview. So again, what

914
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,199
I hear is an attempt to want to be objective

915
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,679
and to have objective principles, but at the same time

916
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,000
to want to have a complete subjectivity and irrationality that

917
00:46:24,119 --> 00:46:27,039
allows for you to pick and choose in a kind

918
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:29,159
of cafeteria approach, which things are true, in which things

919
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:30,960
are false. And again there's not if you don't have

920
00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:35,280
do you have access to the ultimate divinity that's beyond odin,

921
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,960
that's present as the skeletal outline of all religions.

922
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: I mean, we see it every day. It's everything is

923
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:46,559
an expression of the divinity. So it's monistic, yeah, sort of.

924
00:46:47,039 --> 00:46:49,639
Speaker 1: Okay, So if monism is true, this breaks down at

925
00:46:49,679 --> 00:46:52,880
a really fundamental philosophical level. If monism is true, then

926
00:46:53,039 --> 00:46:54,960
ultimately everything is at root one.

927
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,079
Speaker 2: Right, everything? Okay, So it's not everything is the root one.

928
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,960
Everything is at root one. Okay, Well, so what monism

929
00:47:04,039 --> 00:47:06,000
what you're talking about is that everything is part of

930
00:47:06,039 --> 00:47:08,599
the great oneness. Everything is involved in the great oneness.

931
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:11,280
That's not necessarily what I'm saying. What I'm saying is

932
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,000
everything is an expression of the great oneness, including the gods,

933
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:17,679
including you know, which are different for each people. And

934
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,079
you know, that's that's what I'm getting at here. Now.

935
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,039
I want to before we go on, you said that

936
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:27,920
the metric that I'm using to describe logic along with

937
00:47:28,039 --> 00:47:30,639
my line of thinking doesn't coincide with what I was

938
00:47:30,679 --> 00:47:32,840
originally talking about. I want to know exactly what you're

939
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,239
talking about that didn't coincide.

940
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: Because you said that the peal to consensus is not

941
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,079
a fallacy, and it is therefore everybody who would do

942
00:47:41,519 --> 00:47:44,400
logic and basic logic would know. Then appeal to consensus

943
00:47:44,599 --> 00:47:47,519
is an informal fallacy. But informal fallacies are nothing more

944
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:51,960
than examples or instant instantiations of universal principles that are

945
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:54,159
that are formal fallacies.

946
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just uh, when when I'm discussing stuff with

947
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,360
people and it's just a lot of time, I'm sure

948
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:05,000
you've ran into this. People that are masters of sophistry.

949
00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:09,079
It's the logical fallacy thing is is a very easy

950
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:10,760
escape for them to get out of.

951
00:48:11,199 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: Ark, there's not going to be any debate that an

952
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,440
appeal to consensus is fallacy.

953
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,079
Speaker 2: But why is it that science relies so heavily on

954
00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:19,599
appeal to consensus.

955
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: Because science deals with the domain of empirical research and data.

956
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,880
It's not dealing with the domain of rational justification, conceptual justification,

957
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:29,239
epistemic justification.

958
00:48:29,519 --> 00:48:33,559
Speaker 2: So shouldn't spirituality be based on research and data as well.

959
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:40,199
Speaker 1: Aspect there's an aspect to religion, which is experiential and existential,

960
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,679
but there's also an aspect which is a priori and

961
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,480
conceptual or even mathematical.

962
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,599
Speaker 2: But it should be we should absolutely still be logical,

963
00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:53,840
reasonal human beings. Yeah, so I just don't I just

964
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,440
don't understand the disconnect here.

965
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,519
Speaker 1: Because I'm making a presubpisitional critique of your approach, your worldview. Again,

966
00:48:59,599 --> 00:49:04,480
the metaphysics, the ethics, the epistemic claims, they don't cohere.

967
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,159
Speaker 2: But I'm saying that they do. And it's just we're

968
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:07,960
using kind of I know.

969
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: You're saying that, but that doesn't you know, doesn't make

970
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,079
it so. And I've already kind of been illustrating through

971
00:49:12,079 --> 00:49:14,159
going through each of these points how it doesn't cohere.

972
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,440
The there's a bunch of conflicting claims.

973
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,519
Speaker 2: It's like you're you're saying this is true over here,

974
00:49:18,599 --> 00:49:19,840
this is not true over here, and you're just kind

975
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,320
of like mixing it up, so it just all sounds jumbled.

976
00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:24,840
But the fact is that I'm saying that you asked

977
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,320
me why is it that, or you asked me what

978
00:49:27,519 --> 00:49:29,599
is the metric? What is the objective metric to prove

979
00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:32,280
the stuff that I'm talking about, you know, And then

980
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,400
you said, you know, well, in spirituality, we should absolutely

981
00:49:35,519 --> 00:49:38,320
use logic and reason. We should be scientifically minded because

982
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,320
we are modern people. As a place, yes, yeah, it

983
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,519
absolutely should have a place. Science should always have a place,

984
00:49:42,599 --> 00:49:46,119
good science, not pseudo science crap, you know. But then

985
00:49:46,159 --> 00:49:48,840
I give the example of a very scientific approach of

986
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,079
putting this thing together and proving my metric, and then

987
00:49:52,119 --> 00:49:53,760
you say it doesn't make sense now.

988
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,199
Speaker 1: Because again there's a distinction between what the domain of

989
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:02,840
science and empiricism and investigates and the question that I'm asking.

990
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,199
That's a higher level question, which is how do you

991
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,480
justify claims? And this is pretty normative in philosophical discourse.

992
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,119
I'm not trying to be a douchebag and I'm trying

993
00:50:11,159 --> 00:50:14,559
to be a sophist. It's just like, if you listen

994
00:50:14,599 --> 00:50:16,400
to the debate that I would JF for example, we

995
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,639
talked about justifying claims or how do we make sense

996
00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:21,599
of things like logic in the world. So it's kind

997
00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:23,960
of a metallogical question basically, which is.

998
00:50:24,119 --> 00:50:25,079
Speaker 2: Which is which is a A?

999
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: I mean, this comes up in perennialism, this comes up

1000
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,199
in the history of Greek philosophy. This is not an

1001
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,039
out out there like I didn't make this up. This

1002
00:50:31,199 --> 00:50:33,800
is the Yeah, if you took a philosophy class in

1003
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,840
the history of Western philosophy, you're going to deal with

1004
00:50:36,559 --> 00:50:40,760
the justification of claims, the justification of epistemology. How do

1005
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,599
we know? How do we know the difference between believing

1006
00:50:42,679 --> 00:50:45,639
something and knowing something? These kinds of questions. So what

1007
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,320
I asked you was was a very pointed thing about

1008
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,760
how do you know that these this religious system is true?

1009
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,760
And you appeal to a consensus, And I'm saying that

1010
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:56,679
is a fallacy, That's all I'm saying.

1011
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:58,639
Speaker 2: Well, it's not just the consensus.

1012
00:50:58,719 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 1: You know.

1013
00:50:59,039 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 2: You asked to be about it a metric, a scientific

1014
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,760
metric in which I could prove it, And I look

1015
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,039
to the first thing that I know about science, and

1016
00:51:06,119 --> 00:51:08,599
that is appeal to consensus. So I gave that as

1017
00:51:08,639 --> 00:51:12,480
an ex as one example of truth. Another example of

1018
00:51:12,559 --> 00:51:14,840
truth that I gave was, you know, the fruits that

1019
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,519
it bears, How these things that come out from this

1020
00:51:17,639 --> 00:51:20,679
faith are objectively true, and how these things that come

1021
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,400
out from this faith are objectively good?

1022
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: You know.

1023
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine in a million years, you would

1024
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,960
argue that having children and living a traditional life and

1025
00:51:28,039 --> 00:51:31,519
getting back to the simples and rejecting degeneracy is bad.

1026
00:51:31,639 --> 00:51:32,960
I can't ever see you say.

1027
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, But again, you're missing the point. The question is

1028
00:51:36,119 --> 00:51:39,000
about knowing and justifying beliefs and claims. How do you

1029
00:51:39,119 --> 00:51:41,880
know what's degeneracy and what's not degeneracy. That's kind of

1030
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,559
the question I've been asking from the get go. Andy, Well,

1031
00:51:44,599 --> 00:51:47,440
it's just objectively good to have kids. That's called a

1032
00:51:47,519 --> 00:51:50,239
circular argument. That's restating the thing that you think is good.

1033
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,480
And I'm saying, how do you know how to adjudicate

1034
00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:54,079
between the two. That's why I gave the analogy of

1035
00:51:54,119 --> 00:51:56,800
the guy who starts his pyramid cult. You might not

1036
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,760
agree with where I get my vindication from my dream

1037
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,079
of the gods talking to me and saying I'm the

1038
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:05,119
new Pharaoh. But but who are you to say that

1039
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,800
that's not true? I mean, who are you to say

1040
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,119
because you grounded your positions on kind of like the

1041
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,320
the spiritual experiences that you had, Like, how do you

1042
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,840
say that my spiritual experiences are no more, are not

1043
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:16,880
as valid as yours?

1044
00:52:17,199 --> 00:52:20,039
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, when we got started, when I was talking

1045
00:52:20,039 --> 00:52:22,960
about by spiritual experiences. That was to explain how I

1046
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,079
got here. That wasn't you know this this later stuff

1047
00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:29,480
that we're talking about is as my spirituality, my understanding

1048
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,440
of the philosophy developed and became more refined. That's how

1049
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,880
I you know, now I look through different lens.

1050
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this question. So, if do you

1051
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:44,239
understand the idea that that morals or propositions are theory laden?

1052
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,519
In other words, if in my belief system, I believe that,

1053
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,400
and I'm acting on the whether I actually I don't

1054
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:52,840
even have to believe it or not. If I'm acting

1055
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,320
on the principle that I'm saying that the gods told

1056
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,280
me that I should started the Pharaoh cult, then what's

1057
00:52:59,639 --> 00:53:02,559
good in my belief system, in my worldview is going

1058
00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:06,280
to be determined by my assumptions, within my my paradigm,

1059
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,119
within my if so, if I believe and if I

1060
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,920
think that I'm the God Emperor, then it is a

1061
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,360
good thing for me to have a harem and to

1062
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,880
to I don't know, have all the brides of my subjects.

1063
00:53:18,599 --> 00:53:22,519
If I so desire like, that's what I determine as

1064
00:53:22,559 --> 00:53:24,960
a good thing. And I'm saying on what basis is

1065
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:29,360
that not a good because the goods in this perennial

1066
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,840
system or any perennial system, are subjective.

1067
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,599
Speaker 2: But they're they're not subjective because you know, I know,

1068
00:53:34,679 --> 00:53:37,599
you're we're going to go back to the fallacy of

1069
00:53:37,679 --> 00:53:40,760
consensus or whatever. But it's parallel with what other people

1070
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,679
are objectively saying to the fruits of what happens. You can't,

1071
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,599
I can't let that go. You understand that that's not you.

1072
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 1: That's not a justification of a claim, but.

1073
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,199
Speaker 2: It's one one piece of a justification. You can have

1074
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,840
multiple angles that come together into one full thing.

1075
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,119
Speaker 1: You believe that a lot of people can a lot

1076
00:53:58,119 --> 00:53:59,119
of people be wrong about something?

1077
00:53:59,199 --> 00:54:01,159
Speaker 2: Give me, give me one secon here. And this is

1078
00:54:01,199 --> 00:54:03,079
what we're running into here. I'm trying to give you

1079
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,480
like a multifaceted justification, and you're kind of like stopping

1080
00:54:06,559 --> 00:54:08,519
me on this and stopping me and like picking apart

1081
00:54:08,599 --> 00:54:09,199
of the ballacy.

1082
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,559
Speaker 1: Then it doesn't work as a justification.

1083
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,079
Speaker 2: But it can when it's mixed together. Yeah, of course

1084
00:54:13,119 --> 00:54:15,039
it can. Of course it can. Yeah, Okay, then get.

1085
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:18,159
Speaker 1: Rid of that pallacies to justify a proposition or belief system.

1086
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,639
Speaker 2: Okay, So here's another justification. It says that these behaviors

1087
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:24,719
are how we're supposed to act clear as day in

1088
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,840
the Eddis, and that was written by divinely inspired men.

1089
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:28,840
That is the word of God.

1090
00:54:30,639 --> 00:54:34,119
Speaker 1: Okay, on what basis do we know that that's the

1091
00:54:34,199 --> 00:54:36,639
word of God when you were also appealing to like

1092
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,719
ancient texts like the beta is to say that it's

1093
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,800
the same idea there that's in the betas.

1094
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:43,119
Speaker 2: I'm just confirming. I'm just confirming that it's saying other

1095
00:54:43,199 --> 00:54:45,360
things for other people, that the mathematics and the metrics

1096
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:45,800
are true.

1097
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,199
Speaker 1: How do you know that that confirms that?

1098
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:48,599
Speaker 2: Though?

1099
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 1: How do you know which things are the right things

1100
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,320
to pick out when it's literal and when it's not.

1101
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,119
Because you said a minute ago, don't get caught up

1102
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:57,199
in the details, Well, maybe the detail of a situation

1103
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:59,519
or a story about Vendetta is a detail I need

1104
00:54:59,519 --> 00:55:00,000
to pay attention.

1105
00:55:00,599 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 2: Well, how do you know that? What is your process

1106
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,039
for justification? Then?

1107
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,559
Speaker 1: Well, we have a process within the church, which is

1108
00:55:06,639 --> 00:55:10,280
where you actually go into the catechisis the whole mindset

1109
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,480
of the church spread throughout the world, because there is

1110
00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:18,159
an objective revelation given in scriptures. No, it's a mystical experience,

1111
00:55:18,199 --> 00:55:19,519
it's initiatory experience.

1112
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,679
Speaker 2: So you're you're how do you know that your experience

1113
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,400
is better than mine? Then because of this coherent How

1114
00:55:26,519 --> 00:55:27,079
is it coherent?

1115
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: Because I can give a justification, a basis for all

1116
00:55:30,519 --> 00:55:33,000
these things that I'm talking about. How there are these categories,

1117
00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:35,599
how there are these principles that reflect in the mind

1118
00:55:35,639 --> 00:55:37,840
of a single personal God, And I don't think you

1119
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:39,440
can give me a basis for it.

1120
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 2: It kind of sounds like you're just creating this like

1121
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,920
logical uh, this like lot uh, like this giant straw

1122
00:55:46,039 --> 00:55:49,239
man logical trap, so you could like pick everything apart,

1123
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:50,920
put it together, and knock it down when you're really

1124
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,360
just kind of describing the same exact thing you're saying.

1125
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,719
You're saying, you're saying, you're but no, no, no, know

1126
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,639
what you're saying. It's called sofist string is what it's called.

1127
00:55:58,639 --> 00:56:00,760
It's called your point out things. I think.

1128
00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: I think, I think I think that anytime you see

1129
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,079
a fallacy or get called out, you think that sophistry.

1130
00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I'm doing philosophy. But it's the intent

1131
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,840
behind it. The intent behind it is to you because

1132
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,039
you're because we know what the intend is. That's why

1133
00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:18,000
we're here. We know what we're here to debate and stuff.

1134
00:56:18,039 --> 00:56:20,079
Speaker 1: So you know you're saying that my intention is to

1135
00:56:20,159 --> 00:56:23,280
be to be sophistical and not to be rational or

1136
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,519
to do philosophy. Now I'm doing philosophy when I'm asking

1137
00:56:25,519 --> 00:56:30,079
you these questions. The basics of philosophy are ethics, metaphysics, epistemology. Uh.

1138
00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:32,079
So I'm going to be looking at your worldview, your paradigm,

1139
00:56:32,119 --> 00:56:34,679
your belief system, and seeing if what I see their coheres.

1140
00:56:35,199 --> 00:56:38,159
I don't see a coherent uh starting point in any

1141
00:56:38,159 --> 00:56:42,480
of those positions. And while Christianity Orthodotrician unity I say specifically,

1142
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:44,400
it might not have an answer to every single thing,

1143
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,280
it's at least coherent. So what we do in my

1144
00:56:46,519 --> 00:56:49,079
approach is we can there two different paradigms and we

1145
00:56:49,119 --> 00:56:50,800
see which one is coherent. Because I believe in a

1146
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:52,320
coherent You want me to be clear, I'm believing a

1147
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,320
coherency theory of truth. I don't think that when I'm

1148
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:56,960
getting here is coherent. It seems like a bunch of

1149
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:58,400
jumbled up contradictory stuff.

1150
00:56:58,519 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 2: It sounds like you're described been kind of the same thing.

1151
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,599
You say. Okay, well, it says in the in our

1152
00:57:02,679 --> 00:57:05,960
texts that this is true. It says through spiritual mystic

1153
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:08,320
experiences that this is true. And it also says that

1154
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,639
throughout our church, throughout the time and the world. You know,

1155
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,679
the consensus of the church says the same exact stuff

1156
00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:15,280
I'm talking about.

1157
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: No, but the difference is that our paradigm has no

1158
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,280
Our paradigm has a basis for how to justify these

1159
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,559
these beliefs in each of these three categories of philosophy.

1160
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,599
So what I've been doing is critiquing, critiquing your paradigm,

1161
00:57:28,639 --> 00:57:31,639
critiquing the basics of where you start the system. Uh,

1162
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,800
And I'm saying that it's not coherent, and I'm saying

1163
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:35,679
that if you look at ours, it is coherent.

1164
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 2: So what I said was essentially texts, uh, spiritual experience, consensus,

1165
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,280
and then you said text spiritual consistence, spiritual experience, and

1166
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,360
then consensus. Right.

1167
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: But the point is that the explanation of those things

1168
00:57:49,119 --> 00:57:49,719
was not coherent.

1169
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 2: But it's the same thing at its at its core.

1170
00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 1: You can use the same words. I know you're talking

1171
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,280
about semantics, but I showed you earlier that it's not consistent.

1172
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:58,840
How do you how do we know if the guy

1173
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:00,440
who starts as cult is did you or not?

1174
00:58:00,559 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 2: Okay?

1175
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: How you said, because it's objectively not true and there's

1176
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,119
a scientific consensus. But actually there's not a scientific consensus

1177
00:58:06,159 --> 00:58:09,719
about whether having a bunch of kids it's true or not,

1178
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,679
because much of science is bought off and now promotes

1179
00:58:12,679 --> 00:58:14,239
the idea that you shouldn't have any kids. So there's

1180
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,119
not even a scientific What is science anyway? What is

1181
00:58:17,159 --> 00:58:18,039
the scientific consystem?

1182
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:19,639
Speaker 2: And there's a whole other debate, there's a whole nother

1183
00:58:19,679 --> 00:58:20,400
debate is it is?

1184
00:58:20,519 --> 00:58:24,559
Speaker 1: But but so, and I appreciate the rejected scientism, but again,

1185
00:58:24,599 --> 00:58:26,519
there's not going to be a clear definitely. You said, well,

1186
00:58:26,519 --> 00:58:29,239
the EDAs tell us this, okay, But you also said

1187
00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:31,920
that the EDAs have a thing where we shouldn't get

1188
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,280
caught up in the details, like things like, well, you know,

1189
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,400
the gods seem to act like men, don't they They

1190
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,280
seem to be personified human beings.

1191
00:58:39,599 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1192
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,199
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is that I think at root

1193
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,159
here what the problem of paganism is that it's relativistic.

1194
00:58:45,559 --> 00:58:47,599
And I know that you're really reaching four ways for

1195
00:58:47,679 --> 00:58:49,679
it not to be relativistic. But I don't see how

1196
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,320
that is justifiable or inescapable.

1197
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,599
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm just gonna go back to the

1198
00:58:56,679 --> 00:58:59,400
bottom line, is what's the similar about both of our

1199
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,840
face describing you know, get rid of the debate, tactics

1200
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,679
and all of this. Is you know, your justification for

1201
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:08,760
spiritual truth is what is said in your texts? What

1202
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:13,760
is spiritual experiences? And uh, you know, consensus. And I

1203
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,320
would say, I would go further, and I would say

1204
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,760
that my consensus is more thorough than yours. Yours is

1205
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,519
just based within the confines of your church mind branches

1206
00:59:20,519 --> 00:59:23,000
out to many, many different other spiritual philosophies that branch

1207
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:23,800
throughout different names.

1208
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean you can pick and choose and

1209
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:26,920
do that. I could pick and choose and say that, well,

1210
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,119
there's similarities and all these other religions to my religion.

1211
00:59:29,119 --> 00:59:31,880
Therefore there's a skeletal outline of how my religion is

1212
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,880
the true religion that that doesn't really I mean, that's

1213
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:36,960
so that's so vague. It could be anything. I mean,

1214
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,159
we can find similarities in anything between anything by doing that.

1215
00:59:40,519 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 2: Well that this is the problem with universalism, as you

1216
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,320
think that you're you have the one universal truth for

1217
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,400
all of the world, and which has led to multiculturalism

1218
00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:50,400
and all kinds of this other stuff that has gone down.

1219
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,920
I'm not saying, though, I'm not saying that the Orthodox

1220
00:59:54,039 --> 00:59:56,159
Church has led to this. I'm not saying Catholics have

1221
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,639
led to this, but just the general idea of universalism

1222
01:00:00,039 --> 01:00:04,599
has been fundamentally, absolutely destructive for all of the world entirely.

1223
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,159
Speaker 1: This is another contradiction. Do you think that your position

1224
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,800
is true? You've been arguing that there are objective truths,

1225
01:00:10,119 --> 01:00:12,480
that's a universal claim in a universal position, and now

1226
01:00:12,519 --> 01:00:15,159
you're trying to make a fallacy argument about how Christianity

1227
01:00:15,719 --> 01:00:18,440
is the source of and Judeo whatever history is the

1228
01:00:18,519 --> 01:00:21,239
source of universal claims and universal religion. That's what I

1229
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,079
just tried to argue a few minutes ago, that your

1230
01:00:23,119 --> 01:00:24,920
position has universal moral claims.

1231
01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, my position has My position has

1232
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:34,360
universal truths. There are universal truths, but universalism isn't universal truths.

1233
01:00:34,679 --> 01:00:36,719
There are things that are just that are universally true,

1234
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,280
like you said, mathematics are universally true, but that's not universalism.

1235
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,840
Universalism is taking all of your philosophy and believing that

1236
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,400
all people around the world works for them, which is

1237
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:47,679
just fundamentally wrong.

1238
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well again, I think that what you think is

1239
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:56,400
sophistry is again doing philosophy, and this is how philosophy works.

1240
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,039
This is doing philosophy, is asking questions about assumptions. If

1241
01:00:59,079 --> 01:01:00,880
you read the Apology, know you were talking about played

1242
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,480
too Socrates. I mean, that's essentially what what Socrates does

1243
01:01:03,519 --> 01:01:07,440
when he goes out in Athens is he questions everybody's presuppositions,

1244
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,760
they're starting points their paradigm. That's what I'm doing. And know,

1245
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,559
actually what you're the sinction that you're trying to make

1246
01:01:12,599 --> 01:01:15,840
there really doesn't work. Because if it's morally wrong for

1247
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,000
me to start the cult and have a harem and

1248
01:01:18,119 --> 01:01:21,760
to practice magic butt sex, then it's universally morally that's

1249
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,159
a universal claim. So even if you don't want your

1250
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,840
religion to be universal, but at the same time you

1251
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,559
want it to have universal aspects, you're still a universalist.

1252
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,360
Even a relativist, even the most rank relativist who says

1253
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:36,400
there's absolutely no truth, man, he dogmatically believes that that

1254
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:38,719
is a universal truth. And that's what I'm saying, is

1255
01:01:38,719 --> 01:01:41,599
that that's inescapable. So you play you're the one playing

1256
01:01:41,639 --> 01:01:44,760
a sophistical word game of wanting to have objective universal

1257
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:46,480
claims and truths, and then turn around and say, oh,

1258
01:01:46,519 --> 01:01:49,039
it's the Christian who wants the universal truths when you

1259
01:01:49,159 --> 01:01:50,320
have in need the same thing.

1260
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:54,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I made the clear distinction that just because

1261
01:01:54,159 --> 01:01:57,679
there are parts okay universal, you admit that there's a

1262
01:01:57,719 --> 01:02:00,519
different parts of your religion, yet it doesn't matter because

1263
01:02:00,679 --> 01:02:04,760
its matter. Remember, words matter, definitions matter. You said, you

1264
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:05,119
said that.

1265
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 1: You believe there's universal truths in your religion.

1266
01:02:09,119 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 2: Because some aspect there are parts that are universal, because

1267
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:14,960
there are some things that are absolutely universal, but as

1268
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,920
a whole, it is not philosophically universalism.

1269
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it doesn't matter whether you tack on the

1270
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,440
ism on the back of it, because you still believe

1271
01:02:24,559 --> 01:02:26,800
that it's wrong for me to have the harem and

1272
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:27,840
the magic butt sex.

1273
01:02:28,119 --> 01:02:29,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, why do we got to talk

1274
01:02:29,719 --> 01:02:32,079
about butt sex? Like? Can we just make it in

1275
01:02:32,159 --> 01:02:34,760
a lot of pagan literature? That's what it's not pop prominent.

1276
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,519
I've read all of the I've never seen a single

1277
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,159
uh butt sex, no butt sex, and and and uh.

1278
01:02:41,119 --> 01:02:43,039
Speaker 1: You mentioned Plato earlier Plato talks about it.

1279
01:02:43,119 --> 01:02:46,199
Speaker 2: Well, Plato is not Germanic pagan and in fact, a

1280
01:02:46,199 --> 01:02:47,480
lot of people argue thatism.

1281
01:02:47,519 --> 01:02:49,239
Speaker 1: And you're trying to you were appealing to Plato. You

1282
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:50,920
were appealing to the no no no, no, no no no.

1283
01:02:51,119 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 2: I gave. I gave an example that I knew you

1284
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:53,920
were familiar.

1285
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 1: So only the Germanic tribes were the ones that were

1286
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:58,480
that refrained from butt sex. Okay, yeah.

1287
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: In fact, and Tacitus, you know, he explained how the

1288
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,960
Tutons would throw sodomites and bogs and pile rocks on

1289
01:03:05,039 --> 01:03:08,360
top of them and disappear them. So sodomy has not

1290
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,280
been historically something that we are, you know, tolerant, tough.

1291
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: Well, whether it is or it isn't, I don't say

1292
01:03:14,559 --> 01:03:15,840
on what basis is it wrong?

1293
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:17,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean you just made the claim that

1294
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,159
there's gods having butt sex in the head is which

1295
01:03:19,199 --> 01:03:21,000
is I you know, it's just so I said, I talked,

1296
01:03:21,239 --> 01:03:23,320
I said the Greeks, all right, well I'm not Greek.

1297
01:03:24,599 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're you've been appealing to other religious traditions

1298
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,320
as a universal way to vindicate the skeletal outline.

1299
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:31,639
Speaker 2: Because I thought that it would be a better I

1300
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,199
thought it would be better than just appealing to myself,

1301
01:03:34,239 --> 01:03:36,280
which is what the argument you're doing, And so.

1302
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,559
Speaker 1: The appeal outside of yourself doesn't work as what I'm

1303
01:03:38,559 --> 01:03:39,000
trying to say.

1304
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 2: Well, I'm saying that the you know, the appeal to

1305
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,000
yourself is kind of a you know, it's like saying,

1306
01:03:44,039 --> 01:03:47,159
you know, uh, it's you know, appealing to yourself is

1307
01:03:47,159 --> 01:03:48,960
also subjective, and it's kind of you know, it's kind

1308
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,239
of sketchy. You know. I'm saying like, there's these other

1309
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,519
examples all over the place, and you're saying, oh, my

1310
01:03:53,599 --> 01:03:55,000
examples come from in house.

1311
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 3: No.

1312
01:03:56,519 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 1: I appealed to how you justify claims in philosophy when

1313
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,159
you when you go to a debate, you kind of

1314
01:04:01,239 --> 01:04:03,960
there's the assumption that they're that both parties are going

1315
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,400
to be subjected to the same rules and laws of logic.

1316
01:04:07,599 --> 01:04:10,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, but but it doesn't get past my point here,

1317
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,599
is that Why is it that my justification I'm using

1318
01:04:14,519 --> 01:04:16,239
are contradictory. No, they're not.

1319
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:18,559
Speaker 1: The exampt doesn't make them not.

1320
01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 2: But they Yeah, you say, there's there's there's gods having

1321
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:26,039
butt sex in paganism all over the world, doesn't make

1322
01:04:26,079 --> 01:04:28,280
it true because it's not true. But here's the here's

1323
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:28,960
the bottom line.

1324
01:04:29,199 --> 01:04:29,719
Speaker 1: Is that true?

1325
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 2: It's not? Okay, read the edis. If you read the edis,

1326
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,519
I will bet I'm a thousand dollars a thousand dollars,

1327
01:04:36,719 --> 01:04:38,920
you will not find one single examits why.

1328
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:40,719
Speaker 1: Are we supposed to follow the EDAs? Why are we

1329
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:43,719
not following Zeus? And in the Greek myths? Like why

1330
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:45,440
is one true in the other? Well, I said, well,

1331
01:04:45,519 --> 01:04:48,480
it's this is from my people, so it's relative, it's subjective,

1332
01:04:48,519 --> 01:04:50,559
and I'm saying that you need a way to adjudicate

1333
01:04:50,599 --> 01:04:53,159
between true and false, between evil and good. You don't

1334
01:04:53,159 --> 01:04:54,079
get that in your religion.

1335
01:04:54,519 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: Well, okay, here's here's a good metaphor. So like, uh,

1336
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,559
I'm though, like what is like say, you're trying to describe,

1337
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:06,159
You're just trying to express what a light is to

1338
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,119
multiple different people. Light, a light is light. You mean,

1339
01:05:10,159 --> 01:05:12,119
we know what light is there. But if you go

1340
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,679
to you know, in India there's a different word for light,

1341
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:17,920
still light. If you go to Germany there's a different

1342
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:19,960
word for light, still light. Go to Russia, same thing,

1343
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,280
over and over and over, still light, but it's spoken

1344
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,920
in different languages, so that makes it it's consistently light,

1345
01:05:26,239 --> 01:05:27,880
it's just spoken in a different tongue.

1346
01:05:28,519 --> 01:05:32,679
Speaker 1: That's different than trying to say that the same religion

1347
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,400
is manifesting itself across all these different cultures and that

1348
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,159
there's a basic skeletal outline between all these different religions.

1349
01:05:38,199 --> 01:05:39,800
They're fundamentally contradictory.

1350
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:41,679
Speaker 2: There's a difference between religion and God. There's a difference

1351
01:05:41,679 --> 01:05:43,880
between religion, philosophy and divinity.

1352
01:05:44,199 --> 01:05:47,119
Speaker 1: I said, knowing that that is true and that you're

1353
01:05:47,159 --> 01:05:51,519
actually accessing true propositions about the the divinity that's beyond

1354
01:05:51,559 --> 01:05:53,840
the different avatars or whatever, there's no way to know

1355
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,880
that because system is completely contradictory and relativistic.

1356
01:05:57,039 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 2: Okay, debate stuff or argument of tactics society is there

1357
01:06:01,119 --> 01:06:05,480
yes or no? Is there an overarching entity in the universe? Yes?

1358
01:06:05,559 --> 01:06:05,719
Or no?

1359
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: Do you understand that the debate tactics aren't tricks, that

1360
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:13,760
you're actually appealing to things that are real principles, they're

1361
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:14,760
not they're not tricks.

1362
01:06:15,119 --> 01:06:18,119
Speaker 2: Well it is, because Okay, here's the thing you're you're

1363
01:06:18,159 --> 01:06:21,039
trying to prove to your audience by making me pick

1364
01:06:21,079 --> 01:06:23,840
apart my I could say something that's universally true. Like

1365
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:26,000
just now, I know you would have said yes, but

1366
01:06:26,159 --> 01:06:28,440
you avoided the question because you're trying to pick me

1367
01:06:28,519 --> 01:06:31,000
apart and you're trying to make a display that you

1368
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:33,920
and your position are superior to mind as opposed to

1369
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:34,440
having you.

1370
01:06:34,639 --> 01:06:37,519
Speaker 1: Trying to make a point to you about how and

1371
01:06:37,599 --> 01:06:41,519
what the debate is and how universal claims and logic works.

1372
01:06:41,639 --> 01:06:44,880
And you see it as kind of like a sword

1373
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:46,519
that you bring to the battle to whey, that that

1374
01:06:46,679 --> 01:06:49,679
you like rhetorically kind of sneak around people and make

1375
01:06:49,719 --> 01:06:52,599
them look bad. And I'm saying I do not view

1376
01:06:52,639 --> 01:06:54,440
it that way. You can think that I that I

1377
01:06:54,559 --> 01:06:56,199
do that, But the way I view it, and I'm

1378
01:06:56,199 --> 01:06:57,599
being honestly when I tell you this, is that we

1379
01:06:57,679 --> 01:07:02,559
are actually our minds are tapping into actual universal metaphysical

1380
01:07:02,599 --> 01:07:05,800
principles out there in the world. Logic is really a thing.

1381
01:07:06,039 --> 01:07:08,280
It really there really are real fallacies and all this

1382
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:10,639
kind of stuff. They're not just tricks. It's not just semantics.

1383
01:07:10,679 --> 01:07:13,960
It's real. And so when we approach it that way,

1384
01:07:14,079 --> 01:07:17,480
what I'm trying to do is look at the justifications here.

1385
01:07:17,559 --> 01:07:20,679
And again, I mean, you're aware that there's the idea

1386
01:07:20,679 --> 01:07:23,239
of justifying things in like a philosophical way.

1387
01:07:24,679 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 2: But this is a performance, this is this is a production,

1388
01:07:27,199 --> 01:07:27,400
is a.

1389
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: How do you you don't know my motives? You're just

1390
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,880
assuming that this is like theatrics and Hollywood or something.

1391
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I'm not saying that. But I'm

1392
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:39,199
saying that you have the the intent to defeat taking

1393
01:07:39,199 --> 01:07:42,280
it because you know, I mean, am I wrong? Am

1394
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,880
I wrong? That you have the the intent of promoting

1395
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:48,599
your faith and kind of knocking down mind? Yes or no?

1396
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:49,639
Speaker 1: That's part of my intention.

1397
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,159
Speaker 2: Okay, let's go back to my first question. Is there

1398
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:58,320
yes or no? And overarching divine entity in the universe

1399
01:07:58,639 --> 01:08:01,800
in all of creation? Sure? Yeah, So why is it

1400
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:06,320
that you're avoiding these universal truths and using essentially pill

1401
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:09,519
pull to kind of pick apart something that's also universally trial.

1402
01:08:10,559 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: I've been sitting here arguing for universal truths and claims

1403
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:17,159
only consist that they're only consistent with they personally revealed God,

1404
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,439
and that is distinct from the idea of all of

1405
01:08:21,319 --> 01:08:24,920
creation being a kind of pantheistic manifestation of God. So

1406
01:08:25,039 --> 01:08:27,720
that's very that's very important for us because we don't

1407
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:31,119
confuse the Creator and the creature. They're two different realms

1408
01:08:31,199 --> 01:08:35,640
or two different things. Creation can be exalted, it can

1409
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,479
it can participate in different operations or energies of God,

1410
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:41,800
but it's never the same thing as the divine nature.

1411
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:44,000
And that's the central problem with paganism, is that it

1412
01:08:44,159 --> 01:08:47,880
confuses the divine nature with what's created. And so when

1413
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,800
once you blend those two worlds, what you get is

1414
01:08:51,159 --> 01:08:55,840
idolatry and you get the madness and relativism of paganism.

1415
01:08:56,359 --> 01:08:59,119
Speaker 2: But it's so what, Okay, let's let's take a step back.

1416
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,159
What is your were metric? What is the justification that

1417
01:09:02,239 --> 01:09:04,359
your metric for analyzing this is true?

1418
01:09:06,159 --> 01:09:10,520
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna utilize the justifications in philosophical discourse, right,

1419
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:17,600
the justifications in logic, the justifications in uh epistemic analysis,

1420
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:21,560
the justifications that also are at times empirical. Sure, there's

1421
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:24,880
nothing wrong with putting forth empirical evidence, but that's again,

1422
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,680
it's different than the way that we justify a claim

1423
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:30,279
because that has to do with universal claims. And the

1424
01:09:30,319 --> 01:09:33,720
only way you can justify universal claims is not ultimately empirical.

1425
01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:36,680
It has to be a priori.

1426
01:09:37,319 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 2: Okay, So you're going to go back to you're essentially

1427
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,399
using the same justifications as me. You're just using a

1428
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:45,800
a more I mean.

1429
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: You've missed the entire argument I've been making the whole time,

1430
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,039
and you're saying, you're just saying it's pillpol it's talmudism,

1431
01:09:51,159 --> 01:09:53,760
it's it's this kind of stuff. Uh No, I mean,

1432
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:55,720
philosophy is not pillpool, But.

1433
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:57,159
Speaker 2: You know, debate tactics is.

1434
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's because I mean, have you are you not

1435
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:01,359
familiar with debate?

1436
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 2: Like I mean, I'm not very.

1437
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:07,039
Speaker 1: Rude to you, but I mean justifying claims is not

1438
01:10:07,279 --> 01:10:08,600
semantics and tricks.

1439
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,479
Speaker 2: But when you when you split hairs and you try

1440
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:14,640
to pick apart every single little detail before.

1441
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think having a harem and but magic

1442
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:18,079
butt sex is splitting hairs.

1443
01:10:18,159 --> 01:10:20,199
Speaker 2: I mean that's a simple question. Well, I mean I've

1444
01:10:20,359 --> 01:10:22,920
I would never, you know, advocate for any kind of

1445
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:23,600
butt sex ever.

1446
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 1: I know I'm not saying you are. I'm asking the question,

1447
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:27,960
how do we judicate between whether that's degenerator or no.

1448
01:10:28,159 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 2: You're keep you know, you keep bringing up butt sex,

1449
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,319
and I'm just saying that it triggers me and I

1450
01:10:31,319 --> 01:10:32,800
don't want to talk about butt sex. That's all I'm

1451
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:33,199
saying here.

1452
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we can pick a different human sacrifice, to

1453
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,520
pick a different thing that we think is degenerate.

1454
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,640
Speaker 2: Okay, So I made the I made the distinction that

1455
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:46,239
you know, just like you did that. The justification for

1456
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:51,600
why my faith is true is holy text is consensus

1457
01:10:52,239 --> 01:10:56,399
is results. The fruit of what has happened results the conclusion.

1458
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:58,720
That's the same thing you said. So it's just like

1459
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:00,680
all this other stuff to see kind of like fluff

1460
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:01,520
to me, you know what I'm saying.

1461
01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:03,279
Speaker 1: All right, Well, do you want to you want to go?

1462
01:11:03,399 --> 01:11:04,560
I mean, I'm not mad or anything. I think it

1463
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:07,600
was a great discussion, but uh, you want to do

1464
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:09,880
like a Q and A. We've we've we've been going

1465
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:12,039
for a good while here. Yes, yes, sir, So you

1466
01:11:12,119 --> 01:11:13,279
want to do a Q and A and we'll take

1467
01:11:13,319 --> 01:11:15,880
maybe some super chats and all that and uh then

1468
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:18,199
we'll do like maybe closing statements towards the end.

1469
01:11:18,399 --> 01:11:20,319
Speaker 2: Is that cool? Yeah? Absolutely, yes, sir.

1470
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: Okay, So everybody, if you want to, if you send

1471
01:11:22,039 --> 01:11:23,560
some super chats and we'll do some Q and A

1472
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:26,880
and I'll read the ones that are here. What do

1473
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:29,319
you think of this is wamp want five dollars. What

1474
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:32,560
do you think of borrowing some pagan ideas like throwing

1475
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:39,399
these people in the bog? Well, actually, well, you know,

1476
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:42,239
the Old Testament laws about that were pretty strict, and

1477
01:11:42,319 --> 01:11:44,600
of course in the history of Byzantinem you have pretty

1478
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:46,239
strict laws about that kind of stuff.

1479
01:11:46,319 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 2: So I don't think it really has to.

1480
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 1: What the pagan perspective in dramatic tribes or amongst degenerate

1481
01:11:54,039 --> 01:11:57,159
Greeks is. In my view, it doesn't doesn't really have

1482
01:11:57,239 --> 01:12:02,960
any any bearing on what a Christian civilization could enact

1483
01:12:03,039 --> 01:12:06,239
on the basis of their understanding of divine law. Do

1484
01:12:06,319 --> 01:12:07,600
you have any comments on that?

1485
01:12:08,279 --> 01:12:11,399
Speaker 2: I'm the fucking bog lord. Yeah, yeah, I'm all. I'm

1486
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:17,560
all for the bog cowards, shirkers, traders, sodomites.

1487
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,640
Speaker 1: All may We don't want to get the channel taken down.

1488
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,359
So all right, so you we have a strong view

1489
01:12:22,399 --> 01:12:27,800
on that, gotcha. Corneliu Corneliu Cordeliau fifty knocks Jay debate

1490
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:31,239
Steven Anderson. Uh no, I'm not going to debate those guys.

1491
01:12:32,159 --> 01:12:38,000
They're not they're not they're not goodwilled opponents and debates.

1492
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:42,039
Uh Imperium five dollars. How is perennialism any different than relativism?

1493
01:12:42,239 --> 01:12:44,560
By the way, I love how my like low iq

1494
01:12:45,319 --> 01:12:48,119
tweet inspired the greatest debate of twenty nineteen. What wow,

1495
01:12:48,319 --> 01:12:51,239
I don't uh, well really he thinks this is Yeah,

1496
01:12:51,279 --> 01:12:53,640
that's a compliment to both of us. Thank you, imperium.

1497
01:12:54,119 --> 01:12:56,680
I would say, if you saw the debate that I

1498
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,920
did with with Eric, I don't believe that perennialism is

1499
01:13:00,119 --> 01:13:01,319
any different from relativism.

1500
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, it's the Oh, go go ahead,

1501
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:07,159
I'm sorry if you have any comments, so free. Yeah, well,

1502
01:13:08,399 --> 01:13:10,479
relativism is it's it's kinda this is kind of a

1503
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,119
hard thing because some things, you know, I don't believe

1504
01:13:13,199 --> 01:13:15,880
in these dichotomies, Like you can have things that are

1505
01:13:16,079 --> 01:13:18,960
that are objective and then also subjective. You could have

1506
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:21,359
things that are both simultaneously true. You can have pieces

1507
01:13:21,359 --> 01:13:24,600
of this and pieces of that. Because the divinity is

1508
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:29,039
in like spiritual philosophy is isn't just like bound by

1509
01:13:29,159 --> 01:13:31,720
our material definitions. I mean you can take a step

1510
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:34,319
back now. What we're talking about tonight is is the

1511
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,880
absolute objective metrics in which you you measure these things.

1512
01:13:38,279 --> 01:13:42,279
But to say that you know, relativism is is subjective

1513
01:13:42,359 --> 01:13:44,800
and all bad. I mean, I mean obviously obviously, I'm

1514
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:49,039
I believe very strongly in perennialism. So yeah, I say

1515
01:13:49,079 --> 01:13:51,439
that it's I guess it could be relative. I guess,

1516
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:53,079
I don't know. I'm not sure. That's a It's a

1517
01:13:53,119 --> 01:13:54,960
big topic that goes into more and more discussion.

1518
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,359
Speaker 1: Eric Jewel timbucks, how do you feel about the practice

1519
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:03,720
of uh drink looking male fluids as a as practiced

1520
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:06,359
by Odin. I'm not aware of.

1521
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:08,239
Speaker 2: That, but I'm not aware of that either. I have

1522
01:14:08,319 --> 01:14:09,479
no idea what the hell he's talking about.

1523
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 1: I think he's trolling. But let's see Lawrence Ballynag two dollars.

1524
01:14:17,119 --> 01:14:20,079
Anyone want to match my chat? Well, I don't know,

1525
01:14:20,399 --> 01:14:24,279
do they? All right? So a little bit of super

1526
01:14:24,359 --> 01:14:27,920
chat action there. Let's see you want to do a

1527
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,279
closing statement. I'll let you if you want to do

1528
01:14:31,359 --> 01:14:34,279
a closing statement to go first, and then and then

1529
01:14:34,279 --> 01:14:34,920
I'll give mine.

1530
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:38,680
Speaker 2: Sure, absolutely, And mister j oh we got another super

1531
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:39,520
chat here. Let's do it.

1532
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:43,680
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Jake Berg five dollars as Ortho, can

1533
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:47,199
you explic explicate how our faith is the fulfillment of

1534
01:14:47,279 --> 01:14:50,720
the expectation of nations. Yeah, I would say that if

1535
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,479
you look at a lot of those Old Testament predictions,

1536
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:57,199
like Genesis twelve, Justice fifteen, Justice seventeen. You know, God

1537
01:14:57,239 --> 01:15:01,760
says to Abraham that the Gospel will expand out of

1538
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,760
Israel to the whole nations. And so there's a lot

1539
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,960
of predictions in Amos, there's a lot of predictions in Hoseiah, Isaiah,

1540
01:15:08,079 --> 01:15:11,880
major Prophets, Daniel, etc. That Daniel even says in Daniel

1541
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,039
nine that by the time of the Roman Empire, and

1542
01:15:14,359 --> 01:15:17,920
even secular scholars admit Daniel was written prior to the

1543
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:20,560
existence of the Roman Empire. Daniel says that by the

1544
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:24,000
time the next empire comes after Alexander, after the Greeks,

1545
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:26,800
there will be a birth of a Messiah and you

1546
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,119
will see the end of the Jewish temple sacrifice. And

1547
01:15:30,199 --> 01:15:32,680
then he says the gentiles will be brought into the Kingdom.

1548
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:34,039
And that's what we've been seeing for the last two

1549
01:15:34,079 --> 01:15:38,319
thousand years, is the bringing in of the gentiles, as

1550
01:15:38,399 --> 01:15:40,800
Jesus talked about in Luke twenty one, in Matthew twenty four.

1551
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,239
So that's how I think that all the way back

1552
01:15:43,279 --> 01:15:47,359
to Genesis. The promises of the Messianic sed are fulfilled

1553
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:51,199
in Christ and in his Orthodox Church, and so that's

1554
01:15:51,239 --> 01:15:55,800
how I understand the fulfillment of the expectation of the nations.

1555
01:15:56,439 --> 01:15:59,680
So I don't see any more, super chat. So if

1556
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:01,840
you will go ahead, uh, you have the floor for

1557
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:03,680
your final statement beautiful.

1558
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:06,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, mister j thank you so much once again

1559
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:08,399
for allowing me to step up to the plate here.

1560
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:11,880
I hope I presented my position in my faith with

1561
01:16:12,399 --> 01:16:16,039
tact and cunning, and it's been quite the pleasure to

1562
01:16:16,119 --> 01:16:19,800
stand up with uh and class swords with an intellect,

1563
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:22,640
intellectual giants such as yourself. You are, as I said before,

1564
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:25,439
master of your craft. And uh I hope I uh,

1565
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:29,479
I hope in this time David fared well against Goliath.

1566
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:33,640
So uh, you know, thank you so much? Uh do you? Yeah?

1567
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:34,119
Let me go.

1568
01:16:34,279 --> 01:16:36,600
Speaker 1: What's your final statements on on paganism if if you

1569
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:37,720
have any funds? Yeah?

1570
01:16:38,399 --> 01:16:42,119
Speaker 2: Okay, So my final statements for paganism for us true

1571
01:16:42,199 --> 01:16:46,600
specifically because uh, paganism and ostu are not synonymous. My

1572
01:16:47,039 --> 01:16:51,600
final statement is that you know within the clown world,

1573
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,640
within our the sea of degeneracy and darkness, that is

1574
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,760
the that is racked rock. As we approach our final days,

1575
01:16:58,079 --> 01:17:00,199
it is very hard to kind of find our way

1576
01:17:00,239 --> 01:17:03,960
back home. It is very hard to find, you know, continuity.

1577
01:17:04,079 --> 01:17:06,800
And you know, we're homesick for a place that we

1578
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:09,960
do not we don't even know exists, We've never seen it.

1579
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:12,840
So what is what is as true as true is

1580
01:17:13,079 --> 01:17:15,640
the gates to Hyperborea. It is it is a way

1581
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:18,960
for us to master our mind, body, and spirit and

1582
01:17:19,079 --> 01:17:22,079
become in touch with our ancestral knowledge and our ancestral

1583
01:17:22,119 --> 01:17:25,079
wisdom and become a higher level of being, and to

1584
01:17:25,199 --> 01:17:27,600
become in touch with the things that make us human.

1585
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:31,199
And that is family, that is folk, that is country,

1586
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:34,159
that is that is divinity, that is all of these

1587
01:17:34,239 --> 01:17:36,640
things that are just wonderful and wholesome and make us

1588
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:41,560
complete as men, as humans, as Germanic people. Hail Odin,

1589
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:44,199
Hail the folk, and hail everybody in the chat that

1590
01:17:44,279 --> 01:17:46,920
tuned in. God bless all of you and all of

1591
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:50,800
your wonderful, beautiful families. May the springtime bring endless just

1592
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:54,520
fruitful gardens and beautiful angel babies for your tribes. Thank

1593
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:56,680
you again, mister j God bless you, sir and your

1594
01:17:56,720 --> 01:17:59,159
wonderful family. Thank you.

1595
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:01,960
Speaker 1: I would say in closing that I think that the

1596
01:18:02,239 --> 01:18:06,239
neo pagan movement is a reaction to reaction to things

1597
01:18:06,279 --> 01:18:09,880
that are degenerate, that are problematic obviously across not just

1598
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:12,039
the Western world, but eventually and as we're seeing now

1599
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:16,079
global degeneracy and toxicity. However, I don't think it is

1600
01:18:16,199 --> 01:18:20,159
ultimately the correct solution. I think that Orthodox Christianity is

1601
01:18:20,199 --> 01:18:22,399
what is the right solution and has been there is

1602
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:25,079
the right solution for the last to millennia. I think

1603
01:18:25,119 --> 01:18:28,119
that the collapse of the Roman Catholic Church, which you

1604
01:18:28,239 --> 01:18:32,239
said you have come out of, signifies this. I don't

1605
01:18:32,359 --> 01:18:35,319
fault you for questioning the Roman Catholic Church and looking elsewhere.

1606
01:18:35,359 --> 01:18:37,720
I think that's a very logical approach, given the corruption

1607
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:41,960
and degeneracy in that institution. But in our view, there's

1608
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:44,920
a specific reason for why the Roman Catholic Church kind

1609
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:47,039
of fell into that degeneracy, and it relates ultimately to

1610
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:50,840
theology and the terms. They're the theological terms that we

1611
01:18:51,199 --> 01:18:54,880
make very precise and have definitions for. They're not just semantics.

1612
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:56,560
They actually have a very important point. I think what

1613
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,600
I wanted to stress in this debate was I believe

1614
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,760
that the position that you're presenting is relativistic at root,

1615
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:08,239
and it doesn't have a philosophical justification, which is needed. Certainly,

1616
01:19:08,319 --> 01:19:10,640
we can be overly rational, but I think the orthodoxy,

1617
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:16,199
if it's practiced correctly traditionally, it actually has a good

1618
01:19:16,279 --> 01:19:19,399
balance between the mystical, the existential experience that you have

1619
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:25,880
in the liturgy, in the practice of Hesekia, and the

1620
01:19:26,399 --> 01:19:29,520
realm of what's logical and rational. So all the fathers

1621
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:32,640
did apologetics that they did these kind of debates, And

1622
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:34,840
if you are interested in the stuff that I've said,

1623
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:36,880
I would say just watch my video and I got

1624
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:39,199
a drone on. I would say, watch my video that

1625
01:19:39,319 --> 01:19:41,720
deals with the prophecies of the Old Testament being fulfilled

1626
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:43,760
in Christ. And then I would say watch my video

1627
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:48,600
on Saint Athanasius and his critique of paganism, because he

1628
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,399
has a lot of the same arguments I made there.

1629
01:19:52,199 --> 01:19:55,399
So thank you, great debate, great discussion. I'm really glad

1630
01:19:55,399 --> 01:19:57,239
we kept it civil. We got heated, but we didn't

1631
01:19:57,279 --> 01:19:58,239
get hateful.

1632
01:19:58,319 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 2: And this is a shining example of how we can

1633
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:05,520
get together and we can speak like gentlemen like in

1634
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:07,439
the West. This is what the West is based on

1635
01:20:07,680 --> 01:20:10,079
is guys coming together and having your battle of wits

1636
01:20:10,119 --> 01:20:12,600
and intellect. And even a guy like Jay who is

1637
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:15,920
a philosophical guy. Man, I'm just I'm beering the porch nationalism.

1638
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:17,960
I'm just a blue collar guy. The fact that he

1639
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:19,479
would bring me on and let me talk is just

1640
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:22,039
an example of how we can act civilly and be

1641
01:20:22,199 --> 01:20:25,479
gentlemen and and in our quest to defeat the generacy.

1642
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:28,199
But real quick before we end, uh, may I give

1643
01:20:28,199 --> 01:20:30,319
a plug to where people can find my content, mister Jay.

1644
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've got your your your link there below,

1645
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:33,960
but sure go ahead.

1646
01:20:34,239 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, you guys can find me on Twitter at Big

1647
01:20:37,079 --> 01:20:40,159
Dave Martell, Gabin Minds at Dave Martell. You go subscribe

1648
01:20:40,159 --> 01:20:42,880
to my YouTube channel which is called Dave mar Tell.

1649
01:20:43,039 --> 01:20:46,199
You can also find me tonight on verbo timpestus YouTube

1650
01:20:46,279 --> 01:20:48,880
channel with the Conduit, where we dig into all kinds

1651
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:51,920
of crazy esoteric conspiracy theories. And also find me on

1652
01:20:52,039 --> 01:20:55,640
Wednesdays at a pm Eastern on Roffen Folk channel where

1653
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:59,640
I talk about all kinds of other heathen pagan context subjects,

1654
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:01,520
have all kinds of awesome interviews. Or you go to

1655
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:03,479
Amazon dot com pick up a copy of my book,

1656
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:08,039
The American Loyalist Proclamation of Moral Insurrection. Our founders selflessly

1657
01:21:08,079 --> 01:21:11,119
flung themselves at God's Grace's feet in the name of libertey.

1658
01:21:11,359 --> 01:21:13,279
Speaker 3: Now they look down from their heavenly thrones and disgust.

1659
01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:15,960
Pick up your father's swords on the Republic and reclaim

1660
01:21:16,039 --> 01:21:19,760
what is yours. God wills it conquer or die. I

1661
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:22,439
am big Dave Martell. Thank you everybody for tuning in

1662
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:23,560
Hail Victory.

1663
01:21:24,359 --> 01:21:29,159
Speaker 1: It's like the Viking. Alex Jones there all right man,

1664
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:33,840
Thank you good talk and yeah, so his links will

1665
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:35,920
be below. Thank you guys for the super jazz. Thanksverybody

1666
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:38,920
for watching checking out Jay's analysis. Be sure subscribe to

1667
01:21:39,039 --> 01:21:41,560
my stuff if you haven't, And until next time,