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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Family vdW group. No perch is necessary
Speaker 1: if we were premitted by loss he terms and conditions
Speaker 1: eighteen plus.
Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them. Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zuzanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. On May thirty one, nineteen eighty five, two
Speaker 5: days before her high school graduation, Sherry Smith was abducted
Speaker 5: from the driveway of her family home in South Carolina.
Speaker 5: Based on the crime scene and the abductors repeated and
Speaker 5: taunting calls to the family, law enforcement quickly realized they
Speaker 5: were dealing with a sophisticated and highly dangerous criminal. A
Speaker 5: letter arrived the next day entitled Last Will and Testament,
Speaker 5: in which Sherry, knowing she was to be murdered, wrote
Speaker 5: bravely and achingly of her love for her parents, siblings,
Speaker 5: and boyfriend, saying that while they would miss her, she
Speaker 5: knew they would persevere through their face. The abduction rocked
Speaker 5: her quiet town, triggering a massive manhunt and brain in
Speaker 5: the FBI, which enlisted profiler John Douglas. A few days later,
Speaker 5: a phone call told the family where they could find
Speaker 5: Sherry's body. Then nine year old Deborah May Helmet was
Speaker 5: kidnapped from her yard, confirming the harsh realization that Smith's
Speaker 5: murder was no random act. A serial killer was evolving,
Speaker 5: and the only way to stop him would be to
Speaker 5: use the study of criminal behavior to anticipate his next
Speaker 5: move before he could kill again. Douglas devised a risky
Speaker 5: and emotional fraught strategy to use Sherry's lookalike older sister
Speaker 5: Dawn as bait to draw out the unknown subject. Dawn
Speaker 5: and her parents courageously agreed. One of the most haunting
Speaker 5: investigations of Douglas's story career, this case details how the
Speaker 5: eerily accurate profile he created, alongside his carefully crafted in
Speaker 5: stage managed manipulation of the killer psychology, combined with dedicated
Speaker 5: police work in cutting edge forensic science to end the
Speaker 5: reign of criminal terror as Sherry's family took incredible personal
Speaker 5: risks to lure her killer from the shadows, Douglas and
Speaker 5: the FBI pushed criminal profiling to its limits, culminating in
Speaker 5: one of the most dramatic and effective confrontations with a
Speaker 5: sadistic and remorseless killer.
Speaker 2: The book that.
Speaker 5: We're featuring this evening is When a Killer Calls, a
Speaker 5: haunting story of murder, criminal profiling, and justice in a
Speaker 5: small town, with my special guest, legendary criminal FBI criminal
Speaker 5: profiler and author, John Douglas. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 5: thank you very much for this interview. John Douglas. Hello,
Speaker 5: welcome to the program. John Douglas. Thank you so much
Speaker 5: for joining me.
Speaker 6: You've been busy, You've done so many reviews. It's amazing.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you. I've had the privilege of working with
Speaker 5: people like yourself, and it's a great thrill and it's
Speaker 5: an honor to be able to be able to discuss
Speaker 5: a book like When I Kill Their Calls with you.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about first as you do in the book
Speaker 5: When I Kill Their Calls, May thirty first, nineteen eighty five,
Speaker 5: and tell us a little bit about Sherrie Smith and
Speaker 5: her family and what she was doing on May thirty first,
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 6: Yeah, on May thirty first, nineteen eighty five, Sherry Face
Speaker 6: Smith was at a pool party earlier that day with
Speaker 6: her friends and her boyfriend. And it's a Friday, and
Speaker 6: on Sunday, she's going to be graduating from high school.
Speaker 6: She'll be singing the national anthem. She had a beautiful voice.
Speaker 6: She's going to be in a music major. And in
Speaker 6: looking back on the case at that time, then we
Speaker 6: learned that they were before they came home. They were
Speaker 6: in a parking lot at a store, probably you know,
Speaker 6: saying goodbye or kissing each other. But little did they
Speaker 6: know that someone was watching them. This is in Lexington,
Speaker 6: South Carolina. And so she drives home and she gets
Speaker 6: to front of her house as a mailbox. The house
Speaker 6: sits back about two hundred yards from the mailbox. Mister
Speaker 6: Smith is in the front room. He has an office.
Speaker 6: He looked out. He sees she drives up in a
Speaker 6: little car chavette, and she's usually does that and checks
Speaker 6: the mail. So she's seen going to the mailbox. Really
Speaker 6: doesn't pay attention anymore. He leaves the room and he
Speaker 6: comes back about five ten minutes later, and he sees
Speaker 6: the car down there, but where is his daughter. His
Speaker 6: daughter is not there, So he jumps in his own
Speaker 6: car and he drives down to the mailbox.
Speaker 5: The car is.
Speaker 6: Still turned on. Her handbag is on the front seat
Speaker 6: passenger seat. In that handbag besides her valuable there's medication
Speaker 6: that she must take. She has a rare form of diabetes,
Speaker 6: and if she doesn't take that medicine, she just will
Speaker 6: become dehydrated so quickly unless she just drinks really gallons
Speaker 6: of water. At the top, there's a set of footprints.
Speaker 6: She's coming from a pool party. Shen have shoes on
Speaker 6: footprints from her vehicle to the mailbox, but not coming
Speaker 6: back away from the mailbox. And then there's mail on
Speaker 6: the ground in front of the mailbox. She's nowhere to
Speaker 6: be seen. And so this is how it begins that
Speaker 6: the family then contacts the police. The police right away
Speaker 6: they think, well, you know, maybe she ran away. Now
Speaker 6: that doesn't fit the profile. The family says, there's nothing.
Speaker 6: You know, she would not be a runaway. She has
Speaker 6: graduating Sundays singing in the national anthem. So sheriff mets
Speaker 6: for Lexington County Sheriff's Department. They create the biggest man
Speaker 6: hunt at that time ever in the state of South Carolina.
Speaker 6: I'm back at the Kuanico and at the time we're
Speaker 6: not a unit yet. I'm the program manager. I have
Speaker 6: about six agents assigned to me to train them in
Speaker 6: criminal profile. And I got these Asians in eighty three
Speaker 6: eighty eighty four, and most of them came in eighty four.
Speaker 6: In beginning eighty five, after I nearly died on the
Speaker 6: Green River murder case, those of Red mind Hunter, I
Speaker 6: know I collapsed on that case. I had viral encephalitis
Speaker 6: of my immune system, was shot and nearly died, came
Speaker 6: home paralyzed and had to go through rehab for months
Speaker 6: and months. At the point in my life too where
Speaker 6: I thought, my I came so close to death that
Speaker 6: I have what it takes anymore, because the doctor said
Speaker 6: is as they were planning to bury me, that his
Speaker 6: brain has been fried to a crisp. I had such
Speaker 6: a high theater when I was in a coma. But anyway,
Speaker 6: so we get the call, and so we will provide
Speaker 6: a preliminary analysis, you know, on the on the case,
Speaker 6: not right away. It's going to be a couple of days,
Speaker 6: like within a day or so when because now the
Speaker 6: offender I've never had a case like this in my
Speaker 6: career where the offender is calling the family. He's using
Speaker 6: some type of electronic device. We thought to change his
Speaker 6: voice tone and you know, and and pitch, and he
Speaker 6: is telling the family that that he has Sherry you know,
Speaker 6: and you are we're like together with one God and
Speaker 6: giving them hope that their daughter is alive. You know,
Speaker 6: what is the motivation? Is it ransom? Now he's not
Speaker 6: asking for money. Is there a sexual motivation? Yes, it's
Speaker 6: probably going to be a sexual motivation and involved here,
Speaker 6: But why does the offender feel compelled to call the
Speaker 6: family open taught up and taunt them believing that their
Speaker 6: daughter is still alive? And so at that point in time,
Speaker 6: the under Sheriff uh will come up to Chronica with
Speaker 6: crime scene because what will happen next is that he
Speaker 6: will give very detailed directions where her body is found
Speaker 6: a couple of days later. And you could tell from first,
Speaker 6: you can tell from the tape, you can audio tapes,
Speaker 6: you can tell all that just when he speaks, he's
Speaker 6: very very obsessive, compulsive, and when he's talking to the
Speaker 6: family if he's interrupted it just he has to backtrack.
Speaker 6: He can't, he loses his train of thought. And so
Speaker 6: but now he gives these directions to find the body
Speaker 6: of Sherry Fays Smith. He doesn't say that she's dead.
Speaker 6: He just says that, in fact, was plural that like
Speaker 6: will be there, you'll find kind of like us, we
Speaker 6: will be there. And he's telling the other sister, this
Speaker 6: Dawn the directions, and to give such detailed directions, he's
Speaker 6: kind of reinforced the research we were conducting. Offenders will
Speaker 6: go back to the crime scenes if the victims aren't
Speaker 6: aren't found, you know, right right away, for various reasons,
Speaker 6: some to symbolically roll in the dirt and relive and
Speaker 6: fantasize about the crime like Ted Bundy did, and many many,
Speaker 6: you know others, but details that he had to go
Speaker 6: back to come up with these specific details. And so
Speaker 6: it's when her body is going to be found, and
Speaker 6: we're still we're not dispatched down there yet because any
Speaker 6: given time, Dan, we're working you know, at that time,
Speaker 6: at the time, we could be working maybe a couple
Speaker 6: of hundred cases. At that time when I retired from
Speaker 6: the Bureau, were doing a thousand cases a year and
Speaker 6: these cases lineum just stay open until new leads are developed.
Speaker 6: So then now with the death of sherifs theay smith,
Speaker 6: the undershriff comes up. And what's advantageous to us is
Speaker 6: that the under Sheriff and the sheriff both attended the
Speaker 6: FBI Academy's National Academy course and it's an eleven week
Speaker 6: course that they take from police from all they come
Speaker 6: in from all over the world to this eleven week program.
Speaker 6: It's very prestigious. They take various courses from forensic science, firearms,
Speaker 6: through management courses, and behavioral science. And it was in
Speaker 6: that behavioral science class that each of them took where
Speaker 6: they learned about this new investigative tool they're calling criminal profiling.
Speaker 6: And so it was because of that. You know a
Speaker 6: lot of the cops when they take that course and
Speaker 6: they see these cases, they think, I will never have
Speaker 6: anything they need this and we don't have crimes like that.
Speaker 6: Well they did, and so he comes up and they're
Speaker 6: very open and which will make it very easy for
Speaker 6: us to work with the police because because sometimes you're
Speaker 6: invited on cases and it doesn't necessarily mean they want
Speaker 6: you there. It's because the pressure may be put on
Speaker 6: them by the media, the general public, or maybe sometimes
Speaker 6: someone who attended the FBI in national academy want you there,
Speaker 6: but you got happy working with other detectives don't want
Speaker 6: you snooping around on their case. And just so the
Speaker 6: audience knows too, Dan, we get involved in these cases
Speaker 6: under domestic police cooperation and it's a violation they call
Speaker 6: sixty two D as in dog sixty two D. And
Speaker 6: if it's a Canadian case, it'll be international police cooperation.
Speaker 6: And what you do, what you're doing here if we
Speaker 6: have something that another country doesn't have, or a local
Speaker 6: police doesn't have something maybe forensically in this case, in
Speaker 6: this crime analysis, we can get involved in the case.
Speaker 6: We won't prosecute the case, but we will assist the
Speaker 6: local police. So the Lewis McCarty, the un the sheriff
Speaker 6: comes up and we listen to tapes. We have the
Speaker 6: crime scene, the crime scene, and then we start drawing
Speaker 6: up a profile based upon what evidence or information that
Speaker 6: has developed. And these crimes, Dan are we saw this
Speaker 6: particular one is going to be a white male. It
Speaker 6: showed a degree of some criminals sophistication. First he's using
Speaker 6: device electronically to alter his voice. Also, we find when
Speaker 6: we found the body there was there was the duct
Speaker 6: tape residue on the face of it of the ferry
Speaker 6: faced myths, sticky substance from the duct tape. And also
Speaker 6: our hair had been cut and it was cut our
Speaker 6: opinions to make it more easily to remove the duct tape.
Speaker 6: And the reason he removed the duct tape was because
Speaker 6: he didn't want to lead any evidence. Duct tape is
Speaker 6: a good way whenever it's used for the lab to
Speaker 6: develop the fingerprints layton fingerprints off of the tape. So
Speaker 6: we come up with that, we come up with an
Speaker 6: age group. Generally, when you get a case with me,
Speaker 6: I usually start off with violent crime around in the
Speaker 6: twenty five age bracket, and based upon the degree in
Speaker 6: the level of criminal sophistication that we will either deduct
Speaker 6: age or increase a So with him, with how the
Speaker 6: victim was abducted clear daylight at a at her mailbox.
Speaker 6: Probably offender has some type of weapon to control or
Speaker 6: gone nice to control, or so we had him placed
Speaker 6: somewhere in the late twenties into the early early thirties.
Speaker 6: With someone like this, you would find a criminal history.
Speaker 6: We believe you just don't start off perpetrating this type
Speaker 6: of crime. So there would be crimes from I've seen
Speaker 6: telephone calls, to voyeuristic activities, to possibly other cases of
Speaker 6: abduction or attempted abduction. Based upon the device he was
Speaker 6: using electrictronically to all through his voice, we believe he
Speaker 6: would have some he's a blue collar, have some kind
Speaker 6: of background in in electrical uh like electronics, some type
Speaker 6: of background there another thing someone like like call the
Speaker 6: on sub The unknown subject would not necessarily be married.
Speaker 6: Someone like this cannot sustain a marriage. So you'll find
Speaker 6: if just married and ended in uh ended in divorce.
Speaker 6: Someone like this could not really survive in the military.
Speaker 6: They go in the military like someone particularly at that
Speaker 6: time in the eighties and in the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 6: a lot of some of the in the people I interviewed,
Speaker 6: they joined for the action they wanted to They want
Speaker 6: to shoot, They wanted to shoot people. So with bell
Speaker 6: he we would find out later on arth Under would
Speaker 6: join the military. He didn't get the sign of anything
Speaker 6: that words the scening action, so supposedly accidentally shot himself
Speaker 6: in the leg, which got him out of the military.
Speaker 6: I believe he'd probably shot himself purposely because he was
Speaker 6: not getting anywhere doing the things he wanted, you know,
Speaker 6: to do. Also, as we believe as time went on,
Speaker 6: that if we get a suspects that they'll change their
Speaker 6: appearance after the crime or I mean by that, I
Speaker 6: mean they could if they're heavy, they could lose weight,
Speaker 6: clean shaven, and grow a beer and have a beer.
Speaker 6: They'll get rid of the beer, try to maybe perhaps
Speaker 6: establish an alibi, you know, as you know you know
Speaker 6: as well. But also look, we have subjects, and he
Speaker 6: will do this. We already know this. He's injecting himself
Speaker 6: into the VENT instigation, like Dennis Rader, who I interviewed,
Speaker 6: like David Berkowitz's son of Sam who I interviewed, like
Speaker 6: the Zodiac case, whose case remains unsolved. So we provided
Speaker 6: that to him and then he took it back to
Speaker 6: Lexicon and told the sheriff, and they went public and
Speaker 6: they said, we went to the FBI, we got we
Speaker 6: know who we're looking for. We just now we just
Speaker 6: have to find him. We just have to find him.
Speaker 6: I will not personally get involved in the case where
Speaker 6: I'll provide on site consultation until Sherry's sister, Dawn, gets
Speaker 6: a call because he's focusing in on the other sister now,
Speaker 6: and he tells her, do you know about this Deborah
Speaker 6: Helmet case? And she's what Deborah Helmet case? A nine
Speaker 6: year old? Yes, and then he gives directions. This little
Speaker 6: nine year old was abducted in front of her trailer.
Speaker 6: Her and apparents just moved into her dad was home
Speaker 6: that day and she was adductive about fifty to sixty
Speaker 6: feet from the front of that trailer and drives off
Speaker 6: with her. So he's giving directions now to Dawn on
Speaker 6: where to find just like he did with Sheriffay Smith,
Speaker 6: the specifics of where we can find her body. And
Speaker 6: that's what happened. We cops went out there, they found
Speaker 6: the body. Now the call comes in from the Lexington
Speaker 6: Police to to South our South Carolina FBI office in Columbia,
Speaker 6: South Carolina, requesting on site consultation. And so that's when
Speaker 6: I go and I get a relatively newer agent in
Speaker 6: the unit, Ron Walker. It's a real solid guy, but
Speaker 6: it's relatively new in the unit to go with me
Speaker 6: down to South Carolina. We go down to South Carolina.
Speaker 6: We meet the sheriff again. On the sheriff they take
Speaker 6: us to all the different locations and particularly that of
Speaker 6: the last case. Help the case. And the problem that
Speaker 6: sheriff says is that the killer stopped calling. He stopped calling,
Speaker 6: and we need him to call.
Speaker 2: And and this.
Speaker 6: The subject on sub here new enough to stay off
Speaker 6: the phone. If he'd have to stay on the phone
Speaker 6: fifteen minutes for us to do at traps and trace
Speaker 6: on the on the telephone back then, and he would
Speaker 6: he would get off the phone and within minutes, sometimes
Speaker 6: knowing that would be out there and we would find,
Speaker 6: you know, where he called from a pay telephone booth.
Speaker 6: We process that and send it to the lab, the
Speaker 6: coins and everything, looking for any potential, you know, anything
Speaker 6: for instically off him. But so I tell this, He
Speaker 6: tells me he stopped calling. I said, I'll get him
Speaker 6: to call. Uh, you'll get him to call. Yeah, I'll
Speaker 6: get him. I'll get him to call. But one thing
Speaker 6: I want to do is I want to meet the family.
Speaker 6: And number two, I want to meet with an investigative reporter.
Speaker 6: And so what happened is I go out to that
Speaker 6: to the family and Robert Smith is a late lay minister. Uh,
Speaker 6: he works in the counseling inmates. Even he was a
Speaker 6: potential suspect as at one point we're thinking or or
Speaker 6: someone he came in contact with in the prisoner is
Speaker 6: his retaliation perhaps against him, But we quickly eliminate eliminated
Speaker 6: that that idea. So me, I mean, it's it's a
Speaker 6: terrible situation.
Speaker 5: People.
Speaker 6: Everyone's destroyed, obviously crying, and you're you're coming in on this.
Speaker 6: And and I meet everyone, and and they thank us,
Speaker 6: thank me, and you know, for trying to help. And
Speaker 6: and I said, I think we can. I can come
Speaker 6: up with some idea. But I'm kind of hemming and
Speaker 6: hawn Dan, I'm not really you know, you know, I
Speaker 6: should I tell them, I should I suggest this idea.
Speaker 6: And the idea is, and I say, mister Smith, is
Speaker 6: that I can tell and you can probably tell, is
Speaker 6: that this person is on up here, is focusing his
Speaker 6: attention on your other daughter. Now Don, and I think
Speaker 6: we got to get him to talk. I think we
Speaker 6: can we can get him to talk if I can
Speaker 6: work with Don and give her some skills we use
Speaker 6: in hostage negotiation. And he was afraid, he said, what
Speaker 6: if he comes and tries to kill my daughter. I said,
Speaker 6: this is not this. This guy's a coward, Missus Smith,
Speaker 6: He's not the type he's going to pull up into
Speaker 6: your your your driveway here and everyone will be he'll
Speaker 6: be uh protected. And so he agrees to this, and
Speaker 6: then Don takes me into Sherriff Fay's Smith's bedroom and
Speaker 6: where she's a collector of koala bears. She had dozens
Speaker 6: of koala bears and and I see what I'm kind
Speaker 6: of thinking in my head, what can I do here proactively?
Speaker 6: And I'm thinking ahead of the funeral memorial service. So
Speaker 6: I take one of the koala bears are real small
Speaker 6: and about three inches where the type wheek. If you
Speaker 6: squeeze the back of shoulders, there's the paws open up
Speaker 6: and then you'll let go and they close. And so
Speaker 6: that koala bear I'll be using at a memorial service
Speaker 6: where I'm going to have Dawn place that Koala bear
Speaker 6: on a flower, and I'm going to have a podium
Speaker 6: painted white and going to have a picture of Dawn
Speaker 6: in the podium. Why am I doing that, Dan? Is
Speaker 6: that from so many of the interviews I've done offenders,
Speaker 6: they will take souvenirs and trophies. We call them from
Speaker 6: their from the victims, and when they go to they
Speaker 6: go back to the scenes or they go back to
Speaker 6: the cemeteries for various reasons. In the case of Ted
Speaker 6: Bundy and some others I am Holly's interview, they have
Speaker 6: sex with the victims even through advanced stages of the decomposition.
Speaker 6: Others go back to symbolically kind of roll in the
Speaker 6: dirt that this nobody, this in significant nobody now is
Speaker 6: becoming infamous, is this serial killer. So they kind of
Speaker 6: fantasize and you know, and relive it. So here the
Speaker 6: goal was to get the guy to call and I
Speaker 6: worked with an investigative reporter uh to poetically describe what
Speaker 6: was going to be taking place and what took place
Speaker 6: at that cemetery. And then we're going to have we're
Speaker 6: going to be monitoring all the vehicles. Unfortunately from and
Speaker 6: we had no control over. This should be buried very
Speaker 6: close to the road within they within say one hundred feet,
Speaker 6: and we should be risky on the part of the subject,
Speaker 6: but the police would be taking down a license place
Speaker 6: and we would later move ahead. Uh for a second,
Speaker 6: we will later know if we won't catch him the
Speaker 6: way we will ultimately catch him. We would have came
Speaker 6: up with his name, because he did, in fact drive
Speaker 6: by and he stopped and we got his plate, and
Speaker 6: then we would have done criminal checks on all these
Speaker 6: people and would have found out that this guy, Larry
Speaker 6: Jean Belle had this so called criminal history. One of
Speaker 6: the things, if you don't mind me, he talking unless
Speaker 6: you want to jumped in damp. But U is the
Speaker 6: uh with the calls where and the last will and
Speaker 6: testament that he made. Sherry Fay Smith wrote saying goodbye
Speaker 6: to her mother, her father, her brother Robert, boyfriend Richard,
Speaker 6: and she's going to be with Jesus now and I
Speaker 6: want to have a close, closed casket, not an open casket.
Speaker 6: So she knew she was going to die. She knew,
Speaker 6: you know, what was going to happen to you know,
Speaker 6: to her, to her body. And how someone could write
Speaker 6: a letter you know like this, when I talked to
Speaker 6: mister Smith. Even to this day we communicate with each other.
Speaker 6: There's no such thing as closure in cases like this.
Speaker 6: We always talk about closure and an arrestment made the guy,
Speaker 6: but it really never really closure. How can you okay
Speaker 6: you have an arrest, but that doesn't bring back my daughter.
Speaker 6: But the only thing he felt somewhat a bit of closure.
Speaker 6: It was from that last one in testament. Knew how
Speaker 6: strong her daughter, his daughter was when to write that,
Speaker 6: and knowing that, you know she's going to be with God,
Speaker 6: and that helped him psychologically. It didn't not so much
Speaker 6: with the mother, and she would die not too many
Speaker 6: years thereafter. And I've seen that in so many cases
Speaker 6: where it's just unbearable, but they go through, like Patsy
Speaker 6: Ramsey and the John Benny Ramsey case, who's cancer answer return.
Speaker 6: And what made this guy, this guy not just a
Speaker 6: serial killer but a sadistic serial killer, was the taunting
Speaker 6: of the family. And then when he talks to the mother,
Speaker 6: Hilda on this one call and he tells the she
Speaker 6: asks him, did my daughter know she was going to die?
Speaker 6: He says, yes, and I gave her a choice. And
Speaker 6: your daughter was given the choices of a gunshot, drug overdose,
Speaker 6: or suffocation, and your daughter selected suffocation. And that's when
Speaker 6: he duct tapes. He duct taps her head and she says,
Speaker 6: Oh my God, how good you could you do this
Speaker 6: to my daughter? Oh? Please have God forgive us all
Speaker 6: and forgive me, and and then he hangs he hangs
Speaker 6: up on her. And so this guy is not a
Speaker 6: type generally a type of serial killer would work. He
Speaker 6: goes beyond the killing, the sexual assault, to the taunting
Speaker 6: the police, taunting the family and giving them false hope,
Speaker 6: and then through the middle of all this and he's
Speaker 6: calling out, he's he Then he calls and speaks with
Speaker 6: Dawn and he says and in so many words, what
Speaker 6: he's telling her is, you can't be protected forever. You know,
Speaker 6: one day, one month, one year, like your next year,
Speaker 6: you're going to be uh, you know, be next. So
Speaker 6: it was important, you know, so important to solve the case.
Speaker 6: The pressure was was just you know, you know, I'm unbelievable. Meanwhile,
Speaker 6: at the lab or the last will and testament that
Speaker 6: was that the victim, Sherry Smith wrote, is being processed
Speaker 6: in the lab for air and fiber evidence, and they're
Speaker 6: also using a technique where which will will attempt through
Speaker 6: some electrostatic device. They put a chemical on the on
Speaker 6: the paper they searched for indented handwriting, and so we
Speaker 6: have the last one in testament. Maybe there was there
Speaker 6: were sheets of paper on top of that that on
Speaker 6: sub ripped off before he made her, you know, write
Speaker 6: the last will you know in testament and so so
Speaker 6: we're you know, we're on site work with the family,
Speaker 6: police and everything. It's about two o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 6: one or two o'clock in the morning when they contact
Speaker 6: us in this hotel we were staying at that They
Speaker 6: got a great lead, you know, on on the case.
Speaker 6: And the lead is is that the lab was able
Speaker 6: to come up with what appeared to be first a
Speaker 6: grocery list on a sheet of paper or that was
Speaker 6: on top of that last fall and testament, maybe several
Speaker 6: sheets on top of that last hole in testament, as
Speaker 6: well as a telephone number and a telephone number. The
Speaker 6: area code would take him to Alabama and the prefix
Speaker 6: so the number would take him to Huntsville, Alabama, and
Speaker 6: then all but one digit was missing and to the
Speaker 6: prosible in the nation. They came up with a telephone
Speaker 6: number that would take him back to the Lexington, South Carolina,
Speaker 6: to a family known as a Shepherd family. And everyone
Speaker 6: is a static, you know this Shepherd family. The under
Speaker 6: sheriff goes out with detectives and knocks on the door,
Speaker 6: believing that they're going to be knocked on the door
Speaker 6: of the killer here. But here comes to the door,
Speaker 6: a middle aged man, he's stiffyish and his wife same age,
Speaker 6: and they're kind of initially they're disappointed. Go inside and
Speaker 6: they pretty much they don't this guy doesn't fit the
Speaker 6: profile here. And they find out that this miss Shepherd
Speaker 6: is is an electrician and he's been away for six
Speaker 6: weeks in California, and he tells him that they've while
Speaker 6: he was gone at someone house sitting here. It was
Speaker 6: an employee of mine, was an electrician and his name
Speaker 6: is Larry Jean Larry Jean Bell, and uh, they provide
Speaker 6: him a profile, the FBI profile that we did, and
Speaker 6: his family, the husband, wife, They look at each other
Speaker 6: and they say, that's described. You're describing Larry Jean Bell.
Speaker 6: And then they played a sample of the audio tape
Speaker 6: tape of the call that he was making and they said,
Speaker 6: you know that's him, Yeah, you know that's him. Can
Speaker 6: we see his bedroom and they said, yeah, he slept
Speaker 6: over here. So they go into the bedroom where Belle
Speaker 6: was staying.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 6: Also he looked for a gun, Mister Smith, Shepherd left
Speaker 6: a weapon, a gun, and it wasn't in this usual
Speaker 6: place in the house. When they did find he did
Speaker 6: find the weapon. It was recently discharged, they determined, and
Speaker 6: we felt that she was probably when the sheriffe was
Speaker 6: abducted a knife or you know, or a gun. There
Speaker 6: they removed the mattress and under the is a woman
Speaker 6: in a in a uh a bound up uh uh
Speaker 6: uh and spread eagles with with with tape on her.
Speaker 6: And this was in between the two mattresses. So, now,
Speaker 6: what's going to happen next, he says, unless you want
Speaker 6: to jump in, Dan, I'm talking, I'm talking a lot.
Speaker 6: I'll tell you how he proceeds now to the to
Speaker 6: the interrogation.
Speaker 5: If you want the evidence in the break, I just
Speaker 5: cut you off. Sorry, But about the condition of of
Speaker 5: the what what you surmised from going into the bedroom
Speaker 5: of the Shepherd trailer again, give us what you surmised
Speaker 5: what you found?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 6: In the within the Shepherd house Shepherd house was they
Speaker 6: would find a handgun that mister mister Shepherd had which
Speaker 6: was misplaced. Someone removed it. It was probably Bell, Larry
Speaker 6: Larry Bell who was staying staying there, and underneath the
Speaker 6: uh between the mattresses was this pornographic magazine UH. In
Speaker 6: the magazine on the cover was a woman in in
Speaker 6: a crucifixed position and bound up in a crucifix and
Speaker 6: a bondage type of you know type of position. So
Speaker 6: pretty much, you know they had they know there, they
Speaker 6: got the guy.
Speaker 5: Now they got bell.
Speaker 6: Now whether or not he's going to testify, that's another
Speaker 6: question because in South Carolina you have the death penalty
Speaker 6: and it makes it really difficult to get a confession
Speaker 6: out of somebody unless you provide some type of face
Speaker 6: saving scenario. So they're going to haul him into to
Speaker 6: the police station. But I tell the sheriff that they
Speaker 6: didn't have a task force room. So I said, you
Speaker 6: have to create a taskforce room. And so what they
Speaker 6: had was a trailer outside back that they got in
Speaker 6: a in a drug deal and they were able to
Speaker 6: confiscate that from these drug dealers. And and what we
Speaker 6: did we made that trailer into a command center within
Speaker 6: within a couple of hours. How do you do that?
Speaker 6: You put on you know, signs a major crime task
Speaker 6: force the office you've you inside the trailer. We had
Speaker 6: files upon files of uh A peer just to show
Speaker 6: how thorough the investigation was. With his name on the
Speaker 6: on these file cabinets, victims names on the file cabinets,
Speaker 6: maps showing with like tape from the point where Bell lives,
Speaker 6: to the to the where the abduction of the victim
Speaker 6: took place, down back to where the shepherds lived, all
Speaker 6: these these lines, everything leading to Bell. And so we
Speaker 6: did that in a couple of hours. We're not going
Speaker 6: to be initially involved in the interviews d because of
Speaker 6: the he just if you got involved so involved in
Speaker 6: all the interviews you all you'd be doing, you wouldn't
Speaker 6: be able to work your cases back a chronica. You
Speaker 6: just be testifying, you know, you know, all the time,
Speaker 6: flying around the country. So we try to pick, you
Speaker 6: pick some who would best be the right person, you
Speaker 6: know for a particular interview. Was to be male, female,
Speaker 6: a certain age group, whatever s we do, you know,
Speaker 6: something like like that. And we had two very experienced
Speaker 6: detectives and who he felt could provide, you know, maybe
Speaker 6: some type of face saving scenario. So they make arrest
Speaker 6: an arrest of Bell early in the morning. He's back
Speaker 6: living with his with his parents. We actually included that
Speaker 6: in the in the profile as well, and they take
Speaker 6: him the thirty five years of age. Everything fits. The
Speaker 6: other thing too, when I left out, is that what
Speaker 6: the Shepherd family said is that when Larry Gembal picked
Speaker 6: us up at the airport, and we picked us up
Speaker 6: at the airport, we hardly could recognize him. And why
Speaker 6: is that? Because he lost weight and he grew a beard,
Speaker 6: and he looked so different, and and he was just
Speaker 6: seemed preoccupied. And he was just obsessed about this case,
Speaker 6: about these two young girls being murdered. In fact, when
Speaker 6: we got back to our house, he had newspaper clippings.
Speaker 6: He should he saved us news paper clippings to look
Speaker 6: at these and read about these you know, these two
Speaker 6: you know, two cases. So to make their arrest, they
Speaker 6: and that is where they arrest them, they find uh.
Speaker 6: Because he was so obsessive, compulsive, And that was part
Speaker 6: of the analysis too, and how structured he was that
Speaker 6: when he looked in his closet, everything was lined up
Speaker 6: and neat and orderly. Everything in his vehicle same way,
Speaker 6: highly highly maintained and rigid. In the garage tools, it
Speaker 6: would be like guys like him, we would say, would
Speaker 6: outline a screwdriver like in paint. And so the screw
Speaker 6: guy screwdriver goes here and the hammer goes there over here,
Speaker 6: and they arrest him without incident. They take him to
Speaker 6: the trailer. We're not in the trailer. We're please going
Speaker 6: to do this. We're with the sheriff on the sheriff
Speaker 6: and the prosecutor, which he called solicitor. Donnie Myers is
Speaker 6: his name down in South Carolina. His nickname was doctor Death.
Speaker 6: He had so many death murder and death convictions down there,
Speaker 6: capital punishment conditions. So we're waiting, wait and waiting and
Speaker 6: getting we're getting debriefed, and they're really did not getting,
Speaker 6: you know, anywhere, and we leave. We're a me and
Speaker 6: my partner. We're in the under sheriff's room, and everyone
Speaker 6: else now is in the sheriff's room and uh, solicitor,
Speaker 6: sheriff mets and uh and the under sheriff, and all
Speaker 6: of a sudden, without warning, the door opens up and
Speaker 6: here is the prosecutor, the solicitor, with the sheriff, under
Speaker 6: sheriff and the subject Larry Jean Bell. You know, we're
Speaker 6: not even to know what was going on. And so
Speaker 6: the solicitor character and Donnie Myers real Southern drawl says Larry.
Speaker 6: He said, you know who these boys are. These boys
Speaker 6: are from the FBI, and they profiled you right down
Speaker 6: to a t you know, everything about you. And and
Speaker 6: so Belle is just looking and he's just looking at us, said,
Speaker 6: we're you know, I'm looking at Bell. And this was
Speaker 6: you know, this was not rehearsed or anything. And then
Speaker 6: they take off, leaving Bell behind. They leave him behind
Speaker 6: and for us to talk, you know, you know tune.
Speaker 6: So I said, hey, Larry, you know, take take the seat.
Speaker 6: And so he sits in a couch and I sit
Speaker 6: on like a coffee table in front of him by
Speaker 6: not really violating his space, you know, five feet four
Speaker 6: feet away and five feet away, and my other agent
Speaker 6: is back, you know, behind me, just fanning, leaning up
Speaker 6: against a bookcase. And that day when I at the
Speaker 6: call early in the morning, you know, one too in
Speaker 6: the morning about developments in the case. I threw on
Speaker 6: a pair of light colored pants, like white, most white,
Speaker 6: and in a white shirt, so which turned out perhaps
Speaker 6: a good thing because it looks almost clinical and in
Speaker 6: retrospect when I look back on the case, kind of
Speaker 6: like a clinical like I'm like a first responder type
Speaker 6: of thing. So I got him in front of me.
Speaker 6: What am I going to What am I going to do?
Speaker 6: What am I going to say? So I'm going to
Speaker 6: tell him I was going to talk to tell him
Speaker 6: about the research that that I am a colleagues that
Speaker 6: we's conducted going into prisons around the country, avoiding words
Speaker 6: like titles like murderers and idan rapists or whatever. You know,
Speaker 6: just say interviewing inmate surround the country's different for different crimes.
Speaker 6: And I talk about myself, and you know in my background,
Speaker 6: I want to have I don't want to have an interrogation,
Speaker 6: and I just I just want to have this, like
Speaker 6: I try to have a conversation. And let's see how
Speaker 6: intente is. Because what he's doing, dan is is that
Speaker 6: he's looking passed me. He's looking he's looking trial. He's
Speaker 6: he even said one of his telephone calls to the family,
Speaker 6: he can't turn himself in anyone. You know, they'll electrocute me.
Speaker 6: I'll go to prison and electrocute me. So that's what
Speaker 6: when you have somebody like him that they're looking to
Speaker 6: that or or how they're going to be perceived in prison. Here,
Speaker 6: this guy is a child killer, perpetrating two homicides, and
Speaker 6: he's going to be suspect to this day to this
Speaker 6: to this day is today and two other two other
Speaker 6: homicides that are unsolved in South Carolina where he had
Speaker 6: close contact with each of these of those victims. So
Speaker 6: I go through all this and I tell him, I said,
Speaker 6: one of the things I found out when some of
Speaker 6: these interviews when he and UH they said it was
Speaker 6: like almost like two sides of them when he that
Speaker 6: one side of them didn't even know the other side.
Speaker 6: As if you know, do you ever hear multiple personality
Speaker 6: where old I told him, I said, Larry, where one
Speaker 6: side does something to the surprise of the other may
Speaker 6: not even have any knowledge you know, of it, and
Speaker 6: they wake up and have blood on them, or you know,
Speaker 6: something happened, something terrible happened. So I'm trying to provide
Speaker 6: him this space saving scenario. The only way is going
Speaker 6: to try to get out of this is going to try,
Speaker 6: in my opinion, is go insanity route. And during that
Speaker 6: period of time in our country, UH multiple personality was
Speaker 6: kind of in vogue, and then a lot of different
Speaker 6: UH killers that UH use this biance, the Hillside strangler,
Speaker 6: he tried to you know, use this as a as
Speaker 6: a defense, and many many a feral rapists try try
Speaker 6: to use this, you know, as the defense was kind
Speaker 6: of in the end thing back then it was all bs,
Speaker 6: but they they tried it. So when I went through
Speaker 6: this whole process with him, and I then segue into
Speaker 6: when did you start feeling bad about the case, and
Speaker 6: you know not? And then I asked him did you
Speaker 6: do it when you just start feeling bad? And he
Speaker 6: said when I looked in the newspapers and I saw
Speaker 6: the memorial service and the family.
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Speaker 5: So you were talking about his claims and what you
Speaker 5: could in the conversation you were having with him. He
Speaker 5: was denying, but he was putting him in this third
Speaker 5: person character to say that Larry Jean Bell would do
Speaker 5: anything like that.
Speaker 6: Right now, he concluded. What he said was heah, he
Speaker 6: says that the good Larry Jean Bell, you know, wouldn't
Speaker 6: do something like this, but the bad Larry Jean Bell,
Speaker 6: you know, you know, could have. That's as far as
Speaker 6: he would go, you know, with that. I would testify
Speaker 6: to that, to the interview that I had with him
Speaker 6: in court. And uh. Then then what I tried to do,
Speaker 6: which is was that to bring him in front of
Speaker 6: Missus Smith and Don and right, I did that, and
Speaker 6: I and I told Dawn, I said, Don, when you
Speaker 6: hear his voice, I want you to say, it's you.
Speaker 6: I recognize your voice. I know it. I know it's uh.
Speaker 6: You know, you know it's you. So the family comes
Speaker 6: in in the Sheriff's office and then we bring him
Speaker 6: in to uh to uh to the fa family, Missus Smith.
Speaker 6: Mister Smith wasn't there, Missus Smith and Hilda and Dawn.
Speaker 6: He sits right right in front of him. I'm kind
Speaker 6: of between them and right in front of the family
Speaker 6: and and he starts talking, you know, just to say
Speaker 6: who your name is, Larry Jean Bell. And he starts
Speaker 6: talking and as he's talking, she makes the comment about
Speaker 6: it's you. I recognize your voice. You're the one I
Speaker 6: spoke to, and then he went into that the good
Speaker 6: and the bad Larry Jean Bell. You know, once again,
Speaker 6: what's amazing to me, Dan, is how the family. I
Speaker 6: couldn't I could. I don't think I could do it.
Speaker 6: Their faith though, is just so so strong. But they
Speaker 6: were able to sit in front of in front of
Speaker 6: him like like that. And I think I mentioned it
Speaker 6: in the books. I'm pretty sure I did. As I
Speaker 6: was sitting him, thinking to myself, did they search the
Speaker 6: family to make sure that they're not armed? Right before
Speaker 6: they brought up that brought missus Smith and Dawn, And
Speaker 6: I'm thinking about my god, so now my my toes
Speaker 6: just in case, you know, if they didn't they're armed
Speaker 6: and you're here right before me, it'll be this guy
Speaker 6: would be shot and killed by the by the family.
Speaker 6: And so yeah, so that's as far as he went there.
Speaker 6: And then the other thing you provide to and people
Speaker 6: think all you do is just profiling it's really a
Speaker 6: lot of cases you just can't do it. You can
Speaker 6: provide so many aspects to an investigation. Was the prosecutor
Speaker 6: Donny Myers, and I told I told her head, what
Speaker 6: do you think is going to happen? John? I said, well,
Speaker 6: what's gonna happened? He's good disrupt the very first day
Speaker 6: as he comes in here, he's going to disrupt. He's
Speaker 6: gonna be hoop and holler and yelling. And why is
Speaker 6: because he's the only there's only hope is he He's
Speaker 6: got to act like he's insane, that he's that he's
Speaker 6: you know, it's crazy. I mean, he got his goose
Speaker 6: is cooked, he got we have so much evidence, you know,
Speaker 6: you know, on him. And sure enough, first day of
Speaker 6: the trial he comes in screaming, yelling and saying he's God,
Speaker 6: He's Jesus and all this stuff. And then the trial
Speaker 6: proceeds and I'm in there during the trial and you
Speaker 6: go watch him. He's he's just like when he was
Speaker 6: writing the script when he would talk to the family,
Speaker 6: he followed a script. Here he is taking notes, really
Speaker 6: copious notes during the you know, during the trial, and
Speaker 6: he would be convicted, convicted of you know two counts. Well,
Speaker 6: the helmet case would be tried separately, so abduction, murder,
Speaker 6: you know, two counts, and he would he would be
Speaker 6: convicted about I think it's like forty seven minutes or so.
Speaker 6: The jurors came back. It was really really quick. And
Speaker 6: then when we later on we had the helmet case,
Speaker 6: it was the same same thing. Was a very quick
Speaker 6: turnaround for the jurors. The thing that surprised me is
Speaker 6: how he died. Bell is that he got the death penalty.
Speaker 6: You could take in some space's choice nowadays, the space
Speaker 6: that has a capital punishment, lethal injection or the electric chair,
Speaker 6: and he's selected the electric chair. And I was just
Speaker 6: surprised me that this this coward would pick the electric
Speaker 6: chair until I started thinking about it, and I thought,
Speaker 6: now more or less fits because because when he you
Speaker 6: commit a crime like this, committing young perpetrating crimes against
Speaker 6: young young people like this, you are low on the
Speaker 6: totem pole in prison. I think, in fact, you're not
Speaker 6: only going to get it from other inmates, but even
Speaker 6: the correctional guards are going to be treating you like
Speaker 6: crap when you get in there. And I just believe
Speaker 6: that he just wanted to show at the very end
Speaker 6: how tough he is and that he's a real tough guy.
Speaker 6: He's you know, inadequate, you know type, and so he's
Speaker 6: the electric chair. Then, like I said, ten years later
Speaker 6: he was executing. Had a criminal history too, involving you know,
Speaker 6: all kinds of had He went to prison for a
Speaker 6: short period of time for abduction, and he had another
Speaker 6: he just busted for I've seen telephone calls against young children,
Speaker 6: and he had not been caught, he would have gotten
Speaker 6: on and on, you know, and on. And what I
Speaker 6: really like about the case and is really the police
Speaker 6: did a great job, and all you're doing is providing,
Speaker 6: you know, an investigative tool and to help them. And
Speaker 6: that's why when I when I was in the bureau,
Speaker 6: it was really difficult in the beginning because the relationship.
Speaker 6: Hoover died in seventy two. I came back to Klantago
Speaker 6: in seventy seven. I was the youngest agent at thirty one,
Speaker 6: just then just turned thirty two, and cops, you know,
Speaker 6: in those days, you know, the euro maybe basically looking
Speaker 6: for credit where credit isn't and wasn't wasn't due in
Speaker 6: cases that really the locals did what my goal was,
Speaker 6: I accomplished and for us and the people, we always
Speaker 6: give credit, even if you think we played a bigger
Speaker 6: role than we did. Give credit to it, you know,
Speaker 6: to the police and the work, the work they've done,
Speaker 6: and they did, they did do a great job in
Speaker 6: the laboratory. And unfortunately it doesn't always. All cases don't
Speaker 6: always happen, you know, you know that way, but you know,
Speaker 6: it was a tremendous case. But emotionally, I had a daughter,
Speaker 6: aged Deborah Helmet at the time, and it was just
Speaker 6: you know, you know, upsetting, you know, like I said,
Speaker 6: I'm just trying to get over all the stuff I
Speaker 6: went through in nineteen eighty three and eight nineteen eighty four,
Speaker 6: the stress and the nearly dying, and now I'm back
Speaker 6: from back in again.
Speaker 2: I am.
Speaker 6: I have people in the unit, which is great, but
Speaker 6: it's like any business. It takes a while to learn
Speaker 6: the business. Takes you probably about two years to feel
Speaker 6: kind of good about it, and then maybe five years
Speaker 6: before you feel real comfortable and in my job. And
Speaker 6: the people who didn't do what I do usually about
Speaker 6: five years, they start getting burned out and they want out.
Speaker 6: They want to can't take it anymore. They want to
Speaker 6: move on to somewhere else in my say, in my organization,
Speaker 6: and and it just that's probably the took an emotional toll.
Speaker 6: And to this day, I had contact with mister Smith. Uh.
Speaker 6: They established a fund for the daughter, a scholarship fund
Speaker 6: in music and art. That's what she was going into
Speaker 6: when she would go to the university. And uh, just
Speaker 6: he's just a wonderful man. Just just so their faith
Speaker 6: is so strong and just very i mean even forgiving, forgiving,
Speaker 6: you know him, and even hild at some point too,
Speaker 6: when before she passed away, for gave him just to
Speaker 6: get it out of her brain and kind of try
Speaker 6: to move on with the you know, with their lives.
Speaker 6: And then Dawn is today, she's this spiritual leader. She's
Speaker 6: she sings and gospel and she's made albums, she's affiliated
Speaker 6: with churches, she's just done public speaking. Just a wonderful family.
Speaker 5: She won the Beauty pageant shortly after too.
Speaker 6: Yes you're at South Carolina. Uh and uh she was
Speaker 6: like runner up in the U s A pageantry. But
Speaker 6: just just really you know, you know, terristic. It just
Speaker 6: it just breaks your heart those kind of cases. But
Speaker 6: like I said, Dan, I never, I just never. You know,
Speaker 6: you have like Raider contacting the police and you know
Speaker 6: that kind of stuff, and and or Berkowitz, you know,
Speaker 6: but this and they're all the inadequatized. But this is
Speaker 6: you know, one step. Although Raider he's in a statistic mode,
Speaker 6: you know too, but this guy goes his way, his
Speaker 6: way beyond, you know, way beyond you know that, And
Speaker 6: just never never had a case. I don't know of
Speaker 6: any other case quite, you know, quite like that. You'll
Speaker 6: have cases you know you're from You're from Canada originally, right, yes, Dan, Yeah.
Speaker 6: And Clifford Olsen case up there. You remember Clifford Olson
Speaker 6: who killed the children. Yes again, he killed like ten
Speaker 6: children and then he taunting the police. He would call
Speaker 6: me at the FBI. Uh, And I guess it was.
Speaker 6: The Canadians were up in air about because they paid it.
Speaker 6: They didn't know where the victims were. He killed like
Speaker 6: ten children, and they offered him made a deal with them,
Speaker 6: giving them ten thousand dollars per victim. And a lot
Speaker 6: of the Canadians were up in arms about that. Didn't
Speaker 6: like that. But they never would have found these victims
Speaker 6: had they not done that. But this guy, he thought
Speaker 6: he was Hannibal Lecter Clifford Olsen when he was contacting me.
Speaker 6: They had him in a plexiglass sell like Hannibal Lecter.
Speaker 6: And the only reason he was in the pleasic had
Speaker 6: glass cell is because the other inmates would throw cups
Speaker 6: of urine and feces on him. Was because he was
Speaker 6: a badass guy. And then, uh, I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 6: He was calling me on on a cell phone he had,
Speaker 6: uh he always called me on phone. He wouldive him
Speaker 6: a phone even at that time. This is this is
Speaker 6: in the nineties. He had not nineties even Yeah, in
Speaker 6: the nineties he had some type of TV computer. But
Speaker 6: he was trying, he was trying to tell me that
Speaker 6: he was the Green River murdering and trying to convince me.
Speaker 6: And why do you want to convince me? Is because
Speaker 6: he wanted out of prison. He wanted like a little
Speaker 6: break and me following him around and the detectives and
Speaker 6: out in the Serpen County who you know, trying to
Speaker 6: where the bodies are. What a manipulator you know he was.
Speaker 6: He died not to many too many years ago in prison.
Speaker 6: Good riddance to him.
Speaker 5: Yes, he was fascinating about this book, among so many
Speaker 5: fascinating things, is the importance of this correspondence, especially the
Speaker 5: last Will and Testament, that this sadistic killer who loved
Speaker 5: to taunt the family and and her sister and the
Speaker 5: police and the community, but he had her write out
Speaker 5: this last will and testament, which she, as you write,
Speaker 5: showed such incredible composure and courage in the last note
Speaker 5: to her family, trying to make them feel brave and
Speaker 5: and and said things like I don't want this to
Speaker 5: ruin your life. And that correspondence, like some energy from
Speaker 5: beyond was the thing that sealed this killer's faith.
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, if it wasn't for if it wasn't for that, yeah,
Speaker 6: who knows. I mean may eventually, like through the license plate,
Speaker 6: you know, there could have been more, be the very
Speaker 6: least to be more victims. He would still be taunting
Speaker 6: Dawn because then he shifts his attention to Dawn. Yeah,
Speaker 6: as you know, Dan, and yeah that one month, one day,
Speaker 6: one month, one year, you're next. You can't be protected forever.
Speaker 6: And then getting back to the into the the last
Speaker 6: will and test me and then she knows she's going
Speaker 6: to be dying, and yeah, and she talks about having
Speaker 6: she wants to close casket, a closed casket. She knew
Speaker 6: because what was going to happen to her and how
Speaker 6: she would end up. And one of the reasons too, Dan,
Speaker 6: it was tells you that this guy had his criminal
Speaker 6: cistication or certainly knowledge of crime. He would wait several days,
Speaker 6: three or four days, and it was really hot when
Speaker 6: we were down there, really hot and humid. And by
Speaker 6: waiting several days like that before pointing out the bodies,
Speaker 6: and we knew he had to go back because he
Speaker 6: gave these these precise directions where we can find the
Speaker 6: victims bodies that he wanted the bodies to be an
Speaker 6: advanced state of decomposition, which they weren't. So we really
Speaker 6: couldn't determine whether or not there was a sexual assault,
Speaker 6: or how the victims were, how the victims were killed
Speaker 6: with dawn. That dawn with Sherry, we had that some
Speaker 6: residue on the face and we could tell the duct
Speaker 6: tapers was used with her and probably suffocation was the
Speaker 6: cause of death. But miss Smith, even with the last
Speaker 6: will and testament, Dan thought that there was still hopes
Speaker 6: that she may still be alive, and he just you know,
Speaker 6: he's calling the family thing. I know who you are.
Speaker 6: I know the family, and that's why I can't give
Speaker 6: myself in. And then he gives a description of his car,
Speaker 6: which was not his car.
Speaker 5: He has a red car.
Speaker 6: He almost got me, caught me the other day, you know,
Speaker 6: all this stuff. He just just got so caught up
Speaker 6: in the in this manipulation, and which is a downfall.
Speaker 6: I mean that's really that was the downfall of a raider.
Speaker 6: And he gets gets caught up and they reaches a
Speaker 6: point where they feel invincible, where it was just so
Speaker 6: stupid law enforcement. We can't catch you had raider and
Speaker 6: held tight and not reach out like he did. The
Speaker 6: investigation wasn't really you know, close to nabbing him at all.
Speaker 6: It wasn't until a stupid jackass communicating with the police
Speaker 6: asking the police do you think we can would you
Speaker 6: be able to to if I submit a disc to you,
Speaker 6: could you trace it back to you know, to me?
Speaker 6: And he's doing this, they're send me messages in the
Speaker 6: newspaper and so what do you think the police are
Speaker 6: going to say, Oh, yeah, we can trace it back
Speaker 6: to you. Now he says, no, we can't do that.
Speaker 6: So just his stupidity, and they pretty much had about
Speaker 6: the same I Q. They're not bright, neither uh Raider
Speaker 6: or this guy Bell. We're not you know, any not
Speaker 6: any bright lighting in the attic, not not at all.
Speaker 6: And they were lucky. They were lucky up to a point.
Speaker 6: But that was his downfall was that when he sends says,
Speaker 6: you know, you know the case backwards and forward, and
Speaker 6: you've had other guests on talking about the case that
Speaker 6: that case that was the sloppy disk and you didn't
Speaker 6: have to be any kind of a computer was to
Speaker 6: decipher it. Right. There was the name of the church
Speaker 6: church as Christ Baptist Church or something like that, and
Speaker 6: and then the president was Dennis Raider, and it was
Speaker 6: knew it was the president. So unfortunately with some cases
Speaker 6: we are are stymy. You're stymy, and you to keep
Speaker 6: them going, you want them to keep communicating, communicating, communicating,
Speaker 6: But just when when they stop, like the Zodiac, and
Speaker 6: they stop and then you don't really have anything going. Uh,
Speaker 6: it makes it, Yes, it's it's difficult. I don't know
Speaker 6: if you've you probably don't know this or your listeners
Speaker 6: for the Zodiac. The only time we got involved in
Speaker 6: the Zodiac is when they police contacted us because a
Speaker 6: letter we hadn't heard from the Zodiac in a long time,
Speaker 6: and they said, we got this letter from the from
Speaker 6: the Zodiac, and uh, what, we're going to send it
Speaker 6: back to you? We no, sooner get the letter. It's
Speaker 6: followed up by a telephone call to get the letter
Speaker 6: and forget about it. Why because the detective work in
Speaker 6: the case. Uh we're involved in the case. One of
Speaker 6: the detectives wrote the letter. Why perpetuate the case. It
Speaker 6: hadn't heard anything from the officer, so he's trying to
Speaker 6: create for trying to create you know, you know, some
Speaker 6: new kind of new kind of lead leaders because they
Speaker 6: have you have nothing. You know, David Burke was writing
Speaker 6: the letters, you know, you're having something to you know, analyze.
Speaker 6: But the device that was used, the device that was
Speaker 6: used in this case, it wasn't developed for the back
Speaker 6: then yet on the fork was like analyzing the letters
Speaker 6: like you know, like the indented writing type of type
Speaker 6: of stuff or the fingerprinting. It wasn't as sophisticated as
Speaker 6: it is today, like back you know, back then, so
Speaker 6: today's all automated analyzing prints.
Speaker 5: Yes, you you talk about this that This was a
Speaker 5: very fortunate combination of following the profile profiling and also
Speaker 5: the latest forensic science methodologies and and the strategies that
Speaker 5: you've been employed, like you say, were the thing that
Speaker 5: led him to do certain things. You prompted him to
Speaker 5: do certain things via the media and the cooperation with
Speaker 5: the sheriff, and so you successfully brought this person to justice.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you very much, John Douglas for
Speaker 5: coming on and talking about When a Killer Calls, a
Speaker 5: haunting story of murder, criminal profiling, justice in a small town.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 5: and doing.
Speaker 6: This this book with me.
Speaker 5: I know this book will be released February first, and
Speaker 5: I'm sure it will be available everywhere. Again, thank you
Speaker 5: so much, John Douglas for coming on and talking about
Speaker 5: When a Killer Calls. It's been thank you, thank you,
Speaker 5: and good night.
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