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True Murder with your host, 34 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.799 journalist and author Dan Zuzanski. 35 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:18.719 Good Evening. On May thirty one, nineteen eighty five, two 36 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:22.840 days before her high school graduation, Sherry Smith was abducted 37 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:26.240 from the driveway of her family home in South Carolina. 38 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:29.080 Based on the crime scene and the abductors repeated and 39 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:33.240 taunting calls to the family, law enforcement quickly realized they 40 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:38.199 were dealing with a sophisticated and highly dangerous criminal. A 41 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.759 letter arrived the next day entitled Last Will and Testament, 42 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:45.039 in which Sherry, knowing she was to be murdered, wrote 43 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:48.680 bravely and achingly of her love for her parents, siblings, 44 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.439 and boyfriend, saying that while they would miss her, she 45 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:57.120 knew they would persevere through their face. The abduction rocked 46 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:00.360 her quiet town, triggering a massive manhunt and brain in 47 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:05.560 the FBI, which enlisted profiler John Douglas. A few days later, 48 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:08.280 a phone call told the family where they could find 49 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.120 Sherry's body. Then nine year old Deborah May Helmet was 50 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:17.039 kidnapped from her yard, confirming the harsh realization that Smith's 51 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.719 murder was no random act. A serial killer was evolving, 52 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.439 and the only way to stop him would be to 53 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:27.039 use the study of criminal behavior to anticipate his next 54 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:31.280 move before he could kill again. Douglas devised a risky 55 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:35.479 and emotional fraught strategy to use Sherry's lookalike older sister 56 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:39.919 Dawn as bait to draw out the unknown subject. Dawn 57 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:43.840 and her parents courageously agreed. One of the most haunting 58 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:49.719 investigations of Douglas's story career, this case details how the 59 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:54.840 eerily accurate profile he created, alongside his carefully crafted in 60 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:59.599 stage managed manipulation of the killer psychology, combined with dedicated 61 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.240 police work in cutting edge forensic science to end the 62 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:07.800 reign of criminal terror as Sherry's family took incredible personal 63 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:11.879 risks to lure her killer from the shadows, Douglas and 64 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:16.040 the FBI pushed criminal profiling to its limits, culminating in 65 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:19.079 one of the most dramatic and effective confrontations with a 66 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:20.920 sadistic and remorseless killer. 67 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:22.120 The book that. 68 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:25.920 We're featuring this evening is When a Killer Calls, a 69 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:30.519 haunting story of murder, criminal profiling, and justice in a 70 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:35.519 small town, with my special guest, legendary criminal FBI criminal 71 00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:39.519 profiler and author, John Douglas. Welcome to the program, and 72 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:43.120 thank you very much for this interview. John Douglas. Hello, 73 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:46.519 welcome to the program. John Douglas. Thank you so much 74 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:47.079 for joining me. 75 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.759 You've been busy, You've done so many reviews. It's amazing. 76 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.759 Well, thank you. I've had the privilege of working with 77 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:59.199 people like yourself, and it's a great thrill and it's 78 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:01.480 an honor to be able to be able to discuss 79 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:03.839 a book like When I Kill Their Calls with you. 80 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.480 Let's talk about first as you do in the book 81 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.160 When I Kill Their Calls, May thirty first, nineteen eighty five, 82 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:15.000 and tell us a little bit about Sherrie Smith and 83 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:18.240 her family and what she was doing on May thirty first, 84 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:19.360 nineteen eighty five. 85 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:25.800 Yeah, on May thirty first, nineteen eighty five, Sherry Face 86 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:29.240 Smith was at a pool party earlier that day with 87 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:34.079 her friends and her boyfriend. And it's a Friday, and 88 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.680 on Sunday, she's going to be graduating from high school. 89 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:40.519 She'll be singing the national anthem. She had a beautiful voice. 90 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:44.079 She's going to be in a music major. And in 91 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.800 looking back on the case at that time, then we 92 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:48.839 learned that they were before they came home. They were 93 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:52.399 in a parking lot at a store, probably you know, 94 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:54.920 saying goodbye or kissing each other. But little did they 95 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:58.720 know that someone was watching them. This is in Lexington, 96 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:03.680 South Carolina. And so she drives home and she gets 97 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:06.439 to front of her house as a mailbox. The house 98 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:12.240 sits back about two hundred yards from the mailbox. Mister 99 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.600 Smith is in the front room. He has an office. 100 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:17.399 He looked out. He sees she drives up in a 101 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:21.279 little car chavette, and she's usually does that and checks 102 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.399 the mail. So she's seen going to the mailbox. Really 103 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.120 doesn't pay attention anymore. He leaves the room and he 104 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:29.959 comes back about five ten minutes later, and he sees 105 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:32.319 the car down there, but where is his daughter. His 106 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:35.519 daughter is not there, So he jumps in his own 107 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.800 car and he drives down to the mailbox. 108 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:39.879 The car is. 109 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:44.040 Still turned on. Her handbag is on the front seat 110 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:48.959 passenger seat. In that handbag besides her valuable there's medication 111 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:52.199 that she must take. She has a rare form of diabetes, 112 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:54.680 and if she doesn't take that medicine, she just will 113 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:58.800 become dehydrated so quickly unless she just drinks really gallons 114 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:01.959 of water. At the top, there's a set of footprints. 115 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.959 She's coming from a pool party. Shen have shoes on 116 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:08.399 footprints from her vehicle to the mailbox, but not coming 117 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.959 back away from the mailbox. And then there's mail on 118 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.639 the ground in front of the mailbox. She's nowhere to 119 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:18.600 be seen. And so this is how it begins that 120 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:22.120 the family then contacts the police. The police right away 121 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:24.759 they think, well, you know, maybe she ran away. Now 122 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:27.399 that doesn't fit the profile. The family says, there's nothing. 123 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:29.759 You know, she would not be a runaway. She has 124 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:36.879 graduating Sundays singing in the national anthem. So sheriff mets 125 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:41.519 for Lexington County Sheriff's Department. They create the biggest man 126 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:46.240 hunt at that time ever in the state of South Carolina. 127 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.519 I'm back at the Kuanico and at the time we're 128 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.720 not a unit yet. I'm the program manager. I have 129 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:58.800 about six agents assigned to me to train them in 130 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:03.680 criminal profile. And I got these Asians in eighty three 131 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:07.519 eighty eighty four, and most of them came in eighty four. 132 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:11.240 In beginning eighty five, after I nearly died on the 133 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:14.120 Green River murder case, those of Red mind Hunter, I 134 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:18.079 know I collapsed on that case. I had viral encephalitis 135 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:21.120 of my immune system, was shot and nearly died, came 136 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.439 home paralyzed and had to go through rehab for months 137 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.160 and months. At the point in my life too where 138 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:28.360 I thought, my I came so close to death that 139 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.120 I have what it takes anymore, because the doctor said 140 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:33.320 is as they were planning to bury me, that his 141 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:35.240 brain has been fried to a crisp. I had such 142 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:37.600 a high theater when I was in a coma. But anyway, 143 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:41.360 so we get the call, and so we will provide 144 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:46.519 a preliminary analysis, you know, on the on the case, 145 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:49.039 not right away. It's going to be a couple of days, 146 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.279 like within a day or so when because now the 147 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.480 offender I've never had a case like this in my 148 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.360 career where the offender is calling the family. He's using 149 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:02.480 some type of electronic device. We thought to change his 150 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:05.840 voice tone and you know, and and pitch, and he 151 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:10.399 is telling the family that that he has Sherry you know, 152 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:15.399 and you are we're like together with one God and 153 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:18.279 giving them hope that their daughter is alive. You know, 154 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:20.960 what is the motivation? Is it ransom? Now he's not 155 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:25.399 asking for money. Is there a sexual motivation? Yes, it's 156 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:28.440 probably going to be a sexual motivation and involved here, 157 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:33.399 But why does the offender feel compelled to call the 158 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.440 family open taught up and taunt them believing that their 159 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.600 daughter is still alive? And so at that point in time, 160 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:45.200 the under Sheriff uh will come up to Chronica with 161 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.000 crime scene because what will happen next is that he 162 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:53.720 will give very detailed directions where her body is found 163 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:56.600 a couple of days later. And you could tell from first, 164 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.639 you can tell from the tape, you can audio tapes, 165 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:03.039 you can tell all that just when he speaks, he's 166 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:06.639 very very obsessive, compulsive, and when he's talking to the 167 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:10.360 family if he's interrupted it just he has to backtrack. 168 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:14.279 He can't, he loses his train of thought. And so 169 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:17.399 but now he gives these directions to find the body 170 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:21.360 of Sherry Fays Smith. He doesn't say that she's dead. 171 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.720 He just says that, in fact, was plural that like 172 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:26.799 will be there, you'll find kind of like us, we 173 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:31.000 will be there. And he's telling the other sister, this 174 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:36.000 Dawn the directions, and to give such detailed directions, he's 175 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:39.000 kind of reinforced the research we were conducting. Offenders will 176 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.679 go back to the crime scenes if the victims aren't 177 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.360 aren't found, you know, right right away, for various reasons, 178 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:47.879 some to symbolically roll in the dirt and relive and 179 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:52.039 fantasize about the crime like Ted Bundy did, and many many, 180 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:55.200 you know others, but details that he had to go 181 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:58.759 back to come up with these specific details. And so 182 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:02.120 it's when her body is going to be found, and 183 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:07.759 we're still we're not dispatched down there yet because any 184 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:11.200 given time, Dan, we're working you know, at that time, 185 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:13.679 at the time, we could be working maybe a couple 186 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:17.720 of hundred cases. At that time when I retired from 187 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:21.240 the Bureau, were doing a thousand cases a year and 188 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:26.279 these cases lineum just stay open until new leads are developed. 189 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.039 So then now with the death of sherifs theay smith, 190 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:34.080 the undershriff comes up. And what's advantageous to us is 191 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:36.799 that the under Sheriff and the sheriff both attended the 192 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:41.120 FBI Academy's National Academy course and it's an eleven week 193 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:44.159 course that they take from police from all they come 194 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.360 in from all over the world to this eleven week program. 195 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:52.039 It's very prestigious. They take various courses from forensic science, firearms, 196 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:55.519 through management courses, and behavioral science. And it was in 197 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.679 that behavioral science class that each of them took where 198 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.519 they learned about this new investigative tool they're calling criminal profiling. 199 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.240 And so it was because of that. You know a 200 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:07.080 lot of the cops when they take that course and 201 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:09.240 they see these cases, they think, I will never have 202 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:12.960 anything they need this and we don't have crimes like that. 203 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.200 Well they did, and so he comes up and they're 204 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.200 very open and which will make it very easy for 205 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:22.240 us to work with the police because because sometimes you're 206 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.639 invited on cases and it doesn't necessarily mean they want 207 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.320 you there. It's because the pressure may be put on 208 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:33.399 them by the media, the general public, or maybe sometimes 209 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.000 someone who attended the FBI in national academy want you there, 210 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.159 but you got happy working with other detectives don't want 211 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:42.879 you snooping around on their case. And just so the 212 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:45.759 audience knows too, Dan, we get involved in these cases 213 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:50.679 under domestic police cooperation and it's a violation they call 214 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.639 sixty two D as in dog sixty two D. And 215 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:57.759 if it's a Canadian case, it'll be international police cooperation. 216 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:00.879 And what you do, what you're doing here if we 217 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:04.679 have something that another country doesn't have, or a local 218 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:08.080 police doesn't have something maybe forensically in this case, in 219 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:11.720 this crime analysis, we can get involved in the case. 220 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.639 We won't prosecute the case, but we will assist the 221 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:18.519 local police. So the Lewis McCarty, the un the sheriff 222 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:20.960 comes up and we listen to tapes. We have the 223 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:24.440 crime scene, the crime scene, and then we start drawing 224 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.279 up a profile based upon what evidence or information that 225 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:32.840 has developed. And these crimes, Dan are we saw this 226 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:35.440 particular one is going to be a white male. It 227 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:39.240 showed a degree of some criminals sophistication. First he's using 228 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:44.360 device electronically to alter his voice. Also, we find when 229 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:46.919 we found the body there was there was the duct 230 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:51.279 tape residue on the face of it of the ferry 231 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:55.720 faced myths, sticky substance from the duct tape. And also 232 00:13:55.759 --> 00:14:00.159 our hair had been cut and it was cut our 233 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:03.559 opinions to make it more easily to remove the duct tape. 234 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.279 And the reason he removed the duct tape was because 235 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:10.000 he didn't want to lead any evidence. Duct tape is 236 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:13.200 a good way whenever it's used for the lab to 237 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.960 develop the fingerprints layton fingerprints off of the tape. So 238 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:18.320 we come up with that, we come up with an 239 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:21.960 age group. Generally, when you get a case with me, 240 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:27.039 I usually start off with violent crime around in the 241 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:31.240 twenty five age bracket, and based upon the degree in 242 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:36.679 the level of criminal sophistication that we will either deduct 243 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.480 age or increase a So with him, with how the 244 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:47.679 victim was abducted clear daylight at a at her mailbox. 245 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.919 Probably offender has some type of weapon to control or 246 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.320 gone nice to control, or so we had him placed 247 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:59.000 somewhere in the late twenties into the early early thirties. 248 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:01.720 With someone like this, you would find a criminal history. 249 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:05.639 We believe you just don't start off perpetrating this type 250 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:08.720 of crime. So there would be crimes from I've seen 251 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:12.960 telephone calls, to voyeuristic activities, to possibly other cases of 252 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:18.039 abduction or attempted abduction. Based upon the device he was 253 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.080 using electrictronically to all through his voice, we believe he 254 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:24.240 would have some he's a blue collar, have some kind 255 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:28.759 of background in in electrical uh like electronics, some type 256 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:33.320 of background there another thing someone like like call the 257 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:37.000 on sub The unknown subject would not necessarily be married. 258 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:40.799 Someone like this cannot sustain a marriage. So you'll find 259 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:44.320 if just married and ended in uh ended in divorce. 260 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:47.720 Someone like this could not really survive in the military. 261 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.759 They go in the military like someone particularly at that 262 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:54.960 time in the eighties and in the seventies and eighties, 263 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:57.879 a lot of some of the in the people I interviewed, 264 00:15:57.879 --> 00:15:59.960 they joined for the action they wanted to They want 265 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:02.559 to shoot, They wanted to shoot people. So with bell 266 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.279 he we would find out later on arth Under would 267 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:09.480 join the military. He didn't get the sign of anything 268 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:14.320 that words the scening action, so supposedly accidentally shot himself 269 00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:16.799 in the leg, which got him out of the military. 270 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:20.799 I believe he'd probably shot himself purposely because he was 271 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:24.279 not getting anywhere doing the things he wanted, you know, 272 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:30.720 to do. Also, as we believe as time went on, 273 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:36.080 that if we get a suspects that they'll change their 274 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.480 appearance after the crime or I mean by that, I 275 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.000 mean they could if they're heavy, they could lose weight, 276 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.360 clean shaven, and grow a beer and have a beer. 277 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.159 They'll get rid of the beer, try to maybe perhaps 278 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.000 establish an alibi, you know, as you know you know 279 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:56.720 as well. But also look, we have subjects, and he 280 00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:59.360 will do this. We already know this. He's injecting himself 281 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:04.720 into the VENT instigation, like Dennis Rader, who I interviewed, 282 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:08.240 like David Berkowitz's son of Sam who I interviewed, like 283 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:13.000 the Zodiac case, whose case remains unsolved. So we provided 284 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:14.799 that to him and then he took it back to 285 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:19.079 Lexicon and told the sheriff, and they went public and 286 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.440 they said, we went to the FBI, we got we 287 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:24.480 know who we're looking for. We just now we just 288 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:26.839 have to find him. We just have to find him. 289 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:29.759 I will not personally get involved in the case where 290 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:37.359 I'll provide on site consultation until Sherry's sister, Dawn, gets 291 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.720 a call because he's focusing in on the other sister now, 292 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:43.160 and he tells her, do you know about this Deborah 293 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:48.119 Helmet case? And she's what Deborah Helmet case? A nine 294 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.920 year old? Yes, and then he gives directions. This little 295 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.920 nine year old was abducted in front of her trailer. 296 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.119 Her and apparents just moved into her dad was home 297 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:01.720 that day and she was adductive about fifty to sixty 298 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:06.240 feet from the front of that trailer and drives off 299 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:09.519 with her. So he's giving directions now to Dawn on 300 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:14.279 where to find just like he did with Sheriffay Smith, 301 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:18.240 the specifics of where we can find her body. And 302 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.119 that's what happened. We cops went out there, they found 303 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:25.599 the body. Now the call comes in from the Lexington 304 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:31.200 Police to to South our South Carolina FBI office in Columbia, 305 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:36.079 South Carolina, requesting on site consultation. And so that's when 306 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.720 I go and I get a relatively newer agent in 307 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.720 the unit, Ron Walker. It's a real solid guy, but 308 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:45.279 it's relatively new in the unit to go with me 309 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.839 down to South Carolina. We go down to South Carolina. 310 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:54.759 We meet the sheriff again. On the sheriff they take 311 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:58.400 us to all the different locations and particularly that of 312 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:01.599 the last case. Help the case. And the problem that 313 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:05.960 sheriff says is that the killer stopped calling. He stopped calling, 314 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:07.759 and we need him to call. 315 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:09.160 And and this. 316 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:14.759 The subject on sub here new enough to stay off 317 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:16.759 the phone. If he'd have to stay on the phone 318 00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.480 fifteen minutes for us to do at traps and trace 319 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.640 on the on the telephone back then, and he would 320 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:28.720 he would get off the phone and within minutes, sometimes 321 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.240 knowing that would be out there and we would find, 322 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.039 you know, where he called from a pay telephone booth. 323 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.039 We process that and send it to the lab, the 324 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.720 coins and everything, looking for any potential, you know, anything 325 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:45.119 for instically off him. But so I tell this, He 326 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.240 tells me he stopped calling. I said, I'll get him 327 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.720 to call. Uh, you'll get him to call. Yeah, I'll 328 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.000 get him. I'll get him to call. But one thing 329 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:53.559 I want to do is I want to meet the family. 330 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.279 And number two, I want to meet with an investigative reporter. 331 00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:58.839 And so what happened is I go out to that 332 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:04.440 to the family and Robert Smith is a late lay minister. Uh, 333 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.920 he works in the counseling inmates. Even he was a 334 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:11.799 potential suspect as at one point we're thinking or or 335 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.200 someone he came in contact with in the prisoner is 336 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:18.720 his retaliation perhaps against him, But we quickly eliminate eliminated 337 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:22.440 that that idea. So me, I mean, it's it's a 338 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:23.400 terrible situation. 339 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:25.680 People. 340 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:30.240 Everyone's destroyed, obviously crying, and you're you're coming in on this. 341 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:35.920 And and I meet everyone, and and they thank us, 342 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:38.279 thank me, and you know, for trying to help. And 343 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:43.759 and I said, I think we can. I can come 344 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:46.079 up with some idea. But I'm kind of hemming and 345 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:49.200 hawn Dan, I'm not really you know, you know, I 346 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.359 should I tell them, I should I suggest this idea. 347 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.079 And the idea is, and I say, mister Smith, is 348 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:58.319 that I can tell and you can probably tell, is 349 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.359 that this person is on up here, is focusing his 350 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.559 attention on your other daughter. Now Don, and I think 351 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.640 we got to get him to talk. I think we 352 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.839 can we can get him to talk if I can 353 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:14.920 work with Don and give her some skills we use 354 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:19.759 in hostage negotiation. And he was afraid, he said, what 355 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:22.920 if he comes and tries to kill my daughter. I said, 356 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.039 this is not this. This guy's a coward, Missus Smith, 357 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:27.640 He's not the type he's going to pull up into 358 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:30.960 your your your driveway here and everyone will be he'll 359 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.880 be uh protected. And so he agrees to this, and 360 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.799 then Don takes me into Sherriff Fay's Smith's bedroom and 361 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:42.759 where she's a collector of koala bears. She had dozens 362 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:46.559 of koala bears and and I see what I'm kind 363 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:50.200 of thinking in my head, what can I do here proactively? 364 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:53.920 And I'm thinking ahead of the funeral memorial service. So 365 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:55.960 I take one of the koala bears are real small 366 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:58.400 and about three inches where the type wheek. If you 367 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.799 squeeze the back of shoulders, there's the paws open up 368 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:04.000 and then you'll let go and they close. And so 369 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:08.519 that koala bear I'll be using at a memorial service 370 00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:12.200 where I'm going to have Dawn place that Koala bear 371 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:15.519 on a flower, and I'm going to have a podium 372 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.920 painted white and going to have a picture of Dawn 373 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:21.319 in the podium. Why am I doing that, Dan? Is 374 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:25.319 that from so many of the interviews I've done offenders, 375 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:28.640 they will take souvenirs and trophies. We call them from 376 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:31.759 their from the victims, and when they go to they 377 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:34.000 go back to the scenes or they go back to 378 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:38.200 the cemeteries for various reasons. In the case of Ted 379 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:42.640 Bundy and some others I am Holly's interview, they have 380 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.680 sex with the victims even through advanced stages of the decomposition. 381 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:49.279 Others go back to symbolically kind of roll in the 382 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:52.519 dirt that this nobody, this in significant nobody now is 383 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.480 becoming infamous, is this serial killer. So they kind of 384 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.160 fantasize and you know, and relive it. So here the 385 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:03.720 goal was to get the guy to call and I 386 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.759 worked with an investigative reporter uh to poetically describe what 387 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:10.039 was going to be taking place and what took place 388 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:12.880 at that cemetery. And then we're going to have we're 389 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.839 going to be monitoring all the vehicles. Unfortunately from and 390 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:18.480 we had no control over. This should be buried very 391 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.640 close to the road within they within say one hundred feet, 392 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:26.640 and we should be risky on the part of the subject, 393 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.279 but the police would be taking down a license place 394 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.640 and we would later move ahead. Uh for a second, 395 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.279 we will later know if we won't catch him the 396 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:37.880 way we will ultimately catch him. We would have came 397 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:41.000 up with his name, because he did, in fact drive 398 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:43.559 by and he stopped and we got his plate, and 399 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:45.880 then we would have done criminal checks on all these 400 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.519 people and would have found out that this guy, Larry 401 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:51.079