WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:02.759 Hudson River Radio dot com. 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:04.320 It beats listening to nothing. 3 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:10.000 Oh my godness, being Frank Frank, where the only way 4 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:17.280 to be is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. 5 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:20.600 We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host, 6 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:22.879 Frank Lebono, and I'd like to thank you for joining 7 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:27.079 us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, 8 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:30.519 where no conversation is out of bounds in all points 9 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:33.439 of view are welcome. We are going live to tape 10 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:36.759 on the tenth of October. So I guess I should 11 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:41.560 say chow because it's Italian American Heritage Month. The first 12 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:45.240 Italian to be registered as residing in the area corresponding 13 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:50.759 to the current US was Pietro Chesire Alberti, commonly regarded 14 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:54.359 as the first Italian American, a Venetian seaman who in 15 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:59.000 sixteen thirty five settled in the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam, 16 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:02.640 which would have become New York City. In the nearly 17 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:06.719 four hundred years since then, more Italians have migrated to 18 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:10.879 the United States than any other Europeans. Italians have a 19 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:14.000 long history of migrating to foreign countries as a way 20 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:18.079 of coping with poverty and dislocation. During the nineteenth century, 21 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:22.400 more Italians actually migrated to South America than to North America. 22 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.840 The earliest Italian immigrants to the United States were Northern Italians, 23 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.159 who became prominent as fruit merchants in New York and 24 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:34.840 wine growers in California. Later, more and more migrants came 25 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:38.439 from the South, and the communities and institutions they formed 26 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:43.760 reflected the region's fragmentation. Italian immigrants established hundreds of mutual 27 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:48.120 aid societies based on kinship and place of birth. Their 28 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:52.000 presence has become part of the American ethos. Still, I 29 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.519 bet there's a lot more about Italian Americans than pizza 30 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:59.640 and the mafia. Joining us here again on being frank 31 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:01.599 as stea even soerui. He is a member of the 32 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:05.680 pretigious John D. Calandra Italian American Institute and a PhD 33 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:08.840 candidate in Modern history at Fordya University, as well as 34 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:12.080 an instructor at Hustos Community College in the South Bronx. 35 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.639 He has also traveled extensively to locate and document Italian 36 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:21.840 American communities around the country. Steve, welcome once again, as 37 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:24.439 I said, say, since it's Italian American heritage. Mu's the 38 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:26.719 catch all phrase for Italian greetings. 39 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:30.840 Chow hey, Frank, thanks for having me again, looking forward 40 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:31.719 to chatting. 41 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.759 Well, let's start. You're a member of and I want 42 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.159 to talk about the Calandra Italian American Institute in a 43 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:42.680 broader sense. But first I find the history how it 44 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:46.000 was founded, why it was founded very interesting and very 45 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:48.800 relative to our conversation. So would you tell us a 46 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:51.199 little bit about its founding? And then what you guys 47 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:53.280 are you actually doing at the institute. 48 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:57.520 So yeah, I'll answer both of this questions. You picked 49 00:02:57.560 --> 00:02:59.560 the perfect day to ask me this. I just explained 50 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:02.840 it to some people yesterday, so it's fresh on my mind. 51 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:08.000 In the nineteen seventies, the Senator John D. Clandra, who 52 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.400 was a Republican Senator from the Yonkers Bronx Order, led 53 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:16.719 this push to investigate the relationship Italian Americans have with 54 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.120 the City University of New York. And they come out 55 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:22.159 with this eighty page document and what they were able 56 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:24.879 to find out or what they discovered, right, let's let's 57 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:28.479 talk more academic. What they discovered was that the City 58 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.280 University of New York has a history of discrimination against 59 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:36.360 Italian Americans in terms of hiring practices, passing over promotions, 60 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:41.199 and lack of resources for Italian American students. So they 61 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:44.520 had a legal case. They won, and within the City 62 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:47.280 University of New York, Italian Americans are protected as an 63 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:50.840 infirmative action class. And I should explain a little bit 64 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:54.719 what affirmative action is, because there's been a great a push, 65 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.000 especially amongst the American right to kind of discredit what 66 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:01.240 it actually how it actually functions. It's not quotas. It 67 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:03.400 hasn't been that case since the nineteen seventies with this 68 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:05.639 case in California, in the Baki case. It's not quotas. 69 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:07.800 It's not, oh, we need five Italians in this department. 70 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:11.199 It's when you apply for a position or as a student, 71 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:17.800 it's considered right, it's put into consideration, right, your identity 72 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:22.759 as part of the hiring practices, because is a conscious 73 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:28.199 understanding that this institution in the past has discriminated against 74 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:31.839 this particular ethnic group or whatever. Various groups of primitive 75 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:34.560 action covers where and when. Nowadays it's mainly at the 76 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:37.600 state level because the Supreme Court completely gutted it. The 77 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:41.360 institute was originally founded as the Italian American Institute, part 78 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:43.959 of the Graduate Center, which is Quney's doctoral granting institution. 79 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.959 We no longer a part of the Graduate Center now 80 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:49.480 are part of Queen's College. And what the original intention 81 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:53.720 was twofold one the kind of watchdog cuny and two 82 00:04:53.879 --> 00:05:01.000 provide student psychology and student services for Italian Americans therapist here. 83 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:04.360 Unfortunately that's no longer really part of us anymore. But 84 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:06.839 if there's a tiny American students dealing specifically with the 85 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:10.639 Tian American problems, whether that be the parents, talent not 86 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:13.800 to go to school, whatever that may look like, these 87 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:15.800 group of therapists would be there to help them. And 88 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:19.680 of course we kept demographic numbers and watch over aecunity, 89 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:20.720 which we still do this today. 90 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.040 Well see what I think that brings up an interesting 91 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:28.560 point again when you think about discrimination, certainly in modern 92 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.120 times we think of people of color, if you will, 93 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:35.000 But there was a time, if I could make the extrapolation, 94 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:39.560 where where many Americans thought of Italians, particularly Southern Italians, 95 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:42.920 as people of color, if you will, and therefore discriminated 96 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:44.959 in a sense. And we talked about it the first 97 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:48.240 time you were on the program. Also where particularly as 98 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.720 I said, Southern Italians who tend to be darker skinned, 99 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:55.399 generally speaking, did experience a level of discrimination that other 100 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:58.959 folks didn't. But so talk to that. What kind of 101 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:04.319 discrimination has or have Italian Americans faced throughout the long 102 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:05.839 history they've had in this country. 103 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.839 I want to ununpack that a little bit, because people 104 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:13.439 of color attempts to I don't think it's an accurate 105 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:18.120 in accurate term to describe Italian Americans. It's specifically ascribed 106 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:22.959 to African Americans and other people who have not been 107 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:28.839 able to benefit from large scale systemic whiteness. Now, legally speaking, 108 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:34.079 Italian Americans or Italians in America were always legally white, right, 109 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.759 So this means they weren't subject to Jim Crow laws. 110 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:39.720 This means they're able to go to places like California 111 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:41.959 and Oregon at a time when black folks were not 112 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:46.560 allowed to live there. If they assimilated culturally, at least 113 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.720 there was a chance of great social mobility that didn't 114 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:54.639 exist for historical peoples of colors such as African Americans 115 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:58.680 and Indigenous Americans. On the other side, however, that doesn't 116 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:01.839 mean there was a discrimination. Of course, there was discrimination. 117 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:06.199 Every ethnic group, even Germans face discrimination in America, right, 118 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:10.199 the cultural discrimination is the religious discrimination. And also within 119 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:12.879 this kind of cultures that have to kind of explained 120 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:14.879 is the best. America has lots of hierarchies, despite the 121 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:17.079 fact being land of the free. Right. So there's always 122 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:21.079 been this hierarchy of at least since the sixteen hundreds 123 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:24.519 when racial laws are codified in places like Virginia, North Carolina. 124 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.160 White on top, black below. You're a slave because you're black, right, 125 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:29.800 blathly existed before. But if you're a slave in America, 126 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:31.879 you're a slave because you're black. Right. That's this unique 127 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:35.480 relationship that has really developed in the American South in 128 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.519 the colonial period. Right, It's already have this top and 129 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:41.360 bottom relationship based on identity. Right. As time goes on, 130 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.240 that becomes more developed and more complex. So even though 131 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:48.560 Italians are legally considered white right within the strata of whiteness, 132 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:52.560 there's also this hierarchy where Italians are considered lower. That 133 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:56.120 doesn't now Now again that means you face discriminations, prejudiced, 134 00:07:56.120 --> 00:08:00.879 et cetera. But there isn't this large scale systemic exclusion 135 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.319 and banning of Italian Americans like there ares of Chinese 136 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:07.800 for example. Like again, you weren't black, you weren't allowed 137 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:08.839 to If you were black, you weren't allowed to go 138 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:11.279 to Oregon in California, and at certain points of history, 139 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:14.040 Italians could always go there. So I think it's important 140 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:18.079 to kind of parse like systemic racism from prejudices. And 141 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.600 then I think, last year, if I remember correctly, stereotypes and stigmas, 142 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:25.639 which which are from those historical experiences that still kind 143 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:28.319 of linger today. But that's not the same as as 144 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:29.399 like systemic racism. 145 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:31.759 I think it's a great you made a great point, Steve, 146 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:36.000 and and I think very well taken. But that brings 147 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:39.679 us to another issue. I think, especially in the New 148 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.480 York area, which we're coming from, where we're streaming from, 149 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:48.960 most of the Italian Americans here tend to be Southern Italians, 150 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:52.879 so I think people, and again through movies and some 151 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:55.799 of the great film Italian American filmmakers so we can 152 00:08:55.879 --> 00:08:59.440 talk about generally come from the New York area. Again, 153 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:04.039 so these association mostly with Southern Italians, so we tend 154 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:06.720 to think of it sometimes as a monolith, but that's 155 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:10.480 far from true. And in my introduction, it brought out 156 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:15.200 the first Italian Americans coming we're actually northern Italians, and culturally, 157 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:19.080 as we well know, even within the country of Italy itself, 158 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:22.840 there's a big cultural difference between north and south. So 159 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.399 talk to a little bit to that how Italian Americans 160 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:29.960 are not this gigantic monolith as we often tend to 161 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:31.399 see them. 162 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:36.440 Yeah, I mean the monolith's speech aspect of it. I 163 00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:39.159 think you're hitting on something is the fact that the 164 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.519 people who are in immediate positions to represent Italian Americans 165 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.679 are representing the Italian America that they know, which is 166 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:52.480 primarily Sicilian, Campania and Neopolitan. But which is why that's 167 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.639 what we see in the public. But yeah, as you know, 168 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:58.799 is actually quite complex. Literally five feet from where I 169 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:03.000 sleep is Italian American club called the Club Trentino. It's 170 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:05.200 a group of people from from North Italy that came 171 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.600 after World War One, and it's just in New York 172 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:09.639 City and white Stone Queens was a club of people 173 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:13.720 from Friuli. There's another club in Astoria of Italians from Astoria. 174 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:19.080 Now nowadays it's a Mistria. Nowadays it's more Croatian than Italian, 175 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:21.639 but that was a kind of shared multicultural region Istria. 176 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:27.600 It is Italians, Croats, Sloveins and and a Romanians who 177 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:32.200 are Romanian speaking minority. You notice, you know, you noted 178 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:36.159 Cesarey Alberti, who is the first Italian American, but the 179 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:39.480 first community of people from Italy to live in the 180 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:44.440 US are actually from the valleys of northern Pedamont. That 181 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:47.320 well then seen as they settled in Staten Island, and 182 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.200 there's all and Pedamont is the north. What's that, I'm 183 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:52.720 really a bad direction. This is the north west part 184 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:57.480 of Italy. There's historic communities of Venetian glass blowers coming 185 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:00.159 down to Virginia, much smaller they call the community might 186 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:02.200 be a little bit exaggeration, but it just kind of 187 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:06.159 shows you that it's not just Northerners coming here in January. 188 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:09.720 I mean not just southerner is coming here in January. 189 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.480 I went out to Tanti Town, which is in Arkansas, right, 190 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:15.080 You know that that I traveled all over. They're primarily 191 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:21.320 from the Veneto in Friuli area, right, which is northeastern Italy. 192 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.360 You go to California, a lot of those people are 193 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:31.080 from Lombardy and Ligoria. And as you you've talked to 194 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:33.120 me earlier about these posts, I'm making all months. One 195 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:34.840 of the posts I'm gonna make is actually the fact 196 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:38.320 that not all Italians are from Italy. Talking to Istrie earlier, 197 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:41.799 but many of those California Italians are from Italian Switzerland, 198 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:46.919 from the canton Tuccino, or from the Gione or Grissins, 199 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:50.159 which is another Swiss canton that has Ramann speaking but 200 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.360 Italian speaking on the most southern peripheries of it. So 201 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:57.360 it's actually quite quite mixed, quite complex. And during the 202 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:03.960 Great Migration period more Italians left northern Italy than southern Italy. 203 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.639 They just went to Brazil and Argentina, right they went 204 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:11.159 to Uruguay, Paraguay, they went to places like Colombia. I 205 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.639 was joking with my girlfriend, she's Colombian, that you're just 206 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:16.759 as likely to be in the United States, you're just 207 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:19.919 as likely to be Italian American as you are likely 208 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.559 to be Italian Colombian. They're roughly about four and a 209 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.679 half percent of the population. I had two roommates in 210 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:28.759 my first New York City apartment. One was Brazilian, one 211 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.440 was Colombian. Both of them had an Italian grandparent from 212 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:36.000 northern Italy. So this history is a lot more layered 213 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:38.840 and nuanced than a lot of us like to tell ourselves. 214 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:42.120 Well, with that in mind, and you mentioned the Waldensians, 215 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:47.080 correct me with the correct pronunciation. Well yeah, and I 216 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.919 researched them with a very interesting group overall, and one 217 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:55.200 that we wouldn't again within our world of the Southern 218 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:58.919 Italian ethos, et cetera. Really kind of different. Describe them 219 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:01.000 a little bit where they came from, what their movement 220 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:04.600 was like, because it struck me as really different as 221 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:08.240 what we might think of as typically Italian American. Talk 222 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:09.600 a little bit about them. They're interesting. 223 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.120 I love talking about them because they complicate the history 224 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:15.279 so much and both the day aspara for the fact 225 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:18.120 that their first community about two hundred and fifty of 226 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:20.360 them in Staten Island, but also because of their history 227 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.960 with Italy. So they emerged as a kind of dissenting 228 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:27.039 sect in the twelfth century. So like the eleven hundreds 229 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:31.519 led by this guy named Peter Valdo in Lyon, France. 230 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:35.279 Now we should nation states and things like this are 231 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.360 really nineteenth and eighteenth century kind of constructions. In even 232 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:42.039 twentieth century, so people traveling back and forth, moving through regions, 233 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.039 you didn't need a passport back. That was much different. 234 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:50.759 So Peter Valdo's preachings particular were particularly popular in the 235 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:55.080 Latin speaking Alps. So this is like what's today, what's 236 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.639 this called the Roan Alps region of France, Provence region 237 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:02.679 of France, Turin, pedamnt of Italy in the Valde Aosta, 238 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:07.159 and then also what was historically Savoy. So people who 239 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:12.320 speak various Neo or Vulgar Latin languages in the Alps. 240 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.559 His followers are denounced by the Church and many of 241 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:20.799 them are basically forced to convert. However, there's two kinds 242 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:24.919 of trajectories. Ones deep in the Alps in Pedamont managed 243 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:29.159 to survive, and others are scattered throughout the Mediterranean, and 244 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:33.159 many actually find safe haven in southern Italy, establishing communities 245 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.519 like Order Piedamonte in Calabria. I was just talking to 246 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:40.080 someone today because we had an event on Pullia at Calandra, 247 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.000 and her family is from this village in Pulia, which 248 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:47.039 is southern Italy that was repopulated by Valdensians, and like 249 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:50.000 the fourteen or fifteen hundreds, so they went all over 250 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.519 the peninsula. The ones that remained in Piedamont were actually 251 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.039 not all of them, but many of them were massacred 252 00:14:57.080 --> 00:14:59.440 in this event known as the Pedamont Easter, and that's 253 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.279 the originions of that Staten Island community is they basically 254 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.039 chased out of Piedamont during the Counter Reformation because the 255 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.360 Duke of Savoy was like, I need all the people 256 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.279 in my in my in my in my domains to 257 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:13.440 be Catholic. And they actually have a really rich stats 258 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.559 where they have a heritage society that kind of connects it. 259 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.320 They went to Paraguay. There's a town in North Carolina 260 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:24.480 called Valdez, right with Valdetsa. It's all settled by Waldensians. 261 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.240 There's another town in Missouri that I went to called 262 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:31.159 Monette or Monette investinating in French. It was also settled 263 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:33.399 by Waldensians, right, and they were like trilingual. They would 264 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.440 speak like a French dialect and like a Piedamonte's Italian 265 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:39.240 dialect and obviously English because they were living in Monett. 266 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.600 And you go to the cemetery there, it's really fascinating 267 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.240 because some of the gravestones, I would say about fifty 268 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.559 percent of them were French, twenty five percent of them 269 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:48.679 or Italian, and then you can see there were some 270 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:52.399 Anglos or whatever buried in the mix as well, so 271 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.679 they really complicate this history in places like Texas. They 272 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:58.320 were actually the first people to establish as Italian communities 273 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.200 of Galvelson I'm thinking about right now, where there's I 274 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.159 was reading stories of you have this long term Waldensian 275 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.600 Northern Italians who were then having these Southern Italians work 276 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.600 for them in Galveston, Texas. So they demonstrate that this 277 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.360 history is a lot more complex, layered and nuanced than 278 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:17.159 many of us like to think. It's basically, you know, 279 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:20.480 grandma and Grandpa left Italy, they came to America, they 280 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:23.519 were good Catholics, they learned in language, and they assimilate it. 281 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.840 When in reality it's it's much more and more complicated 282 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:29.039 than what people want to really engage with. Not everyone, 283 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:31.759 of course, but there are some people you know specifically, 284 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:34.360 and you know, positions of power want to kind of 285 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.440 simplify the story, you know, well. 286 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.320 You know, and it's interesting and as I was doing 287 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:46.080 my research, and as you mentioned, this incredible diversity, but 288 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:52.840 I think Italian Americans run into the early on had 289 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:59.000 the same mindset that that sometimes people today used to 290 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.240 denigrate migrants today is they're only here to make money. 291 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:06.880 To send back to their families, and they're going to 292 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.279 go back anyway after the successful Well that was the 293 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.279 from what my research I did, that was very much 294 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.839 the early Italian mindset. They were going to come here, 295 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:18.319 they were going to make some money, They're going to 296 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:20.640 send them back because it was needed, and then when 297 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:23.000 they were well off, they were going to go back too. 298 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.880 So it's not so different. And again that's kind of 299 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:30.880 used as a cudgel by right wingers today against migrants 300 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:33.279 as well. They don't want to assimilate to this country, 301 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:35.839 they just want to take from it. And early on 302 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:39.640 that that kind of changed as Italian Americans really contributed. 303 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:41.960 But in the beginning they were just interested in kind 304 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:43.799 of taking true. 305 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:49.599 Every single talking point you see today used against specifically 306 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.200 Latin American immigrants, it's the same exact thing you'd see 307 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:54.799 us against the times. They don't want to assimilate and 308 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:58.079 learn their culture, right, Well, there's some truth to that. 309 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:01.759 Something like I think it was only thirty percent of 310 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.920 Italian American men in nineteen twenty New York New English 311 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:07.880 the immigrant class, and something like eleven percent of woman. 312 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:09.880 You didn't need to learn a language, you lived in 313 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:12.319 an enclave. Everyone spoken languages, don't need to learn it. 314 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:18.559 Of the in the the the rotational aspect of the 315 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.559 diaspora amongst Italians is much more higher. Fifty one percent 316 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.319 went back between eighteen eighty and nineteen twenty four. Fifty percent. 317 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:28.839 That's the majority of them, right, and in many ways 318 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.400 they were much less. The newer immigrants coming in now 319 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:36.119 are much more assimilatory, right, despite the fact that there's language, 320 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:38.960 there's late help with language and stuff. They're much more 321 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:42.599 assimilatory than what Italians were. There was way more. There's 322 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:44.920 something like one hundred and something Italian newspapers in the country. 323 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.640 There's very few Spanish speaking newspapers, and you had but 324 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:55.000 two major medior television networks. The thing with the remittances, right, 325 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:57.039 So the point I'm trying saying is not everyone came 326 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.119 here to assimilate, and it's it's not just became we 327 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:01.920 learned English and that was it. Some people did thata. 328 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:03.519 Of course, it's true. If there's different people, they have 329 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:06.240 different experiences. There's no one thing sets all, but there 330 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:08.519 are these general trends that we can find. That's the 331 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.599 thing is remittance is one of my one of the 332 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:13.680 most fascinating characters in the town of Marriican history. Is 333 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.680 this guy named Giovanni Scabo, who is I posted about 334 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.319 him yesterday if you saw who's really checkered in in 335 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:23.480 how I feel about him. But I generally speaking, I 336 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.799 like him. Problematic guy. But one of his jobs was 337 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:29.960 in nineteen twenties or nineteen thirties, is he worked for 338 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.400 this bank and he went all all over the country 339 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.160 and he was basically trying to get Italians in these 340 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.279 various communities South America to use this bank to send 341 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:40.519 the remittances back to Italy. And I'll tell a personal 342 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.000 story about that. My great grandfather, right, and talking about 343 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:49.559 some tropes. Right, my great grandfather who came from Abruzzo. 344 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.359 They were ten in farmers, right, They were landless, Contentini. 345 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:54.839 They came to America. They went to a dry county 346 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:56.720 upstate Pennsylvania, and you can look on a map, Dray 347 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.519 County con point exactly wherever it is by bull of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 348 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.880 He worked in the mind and then he bootlegged Grappa 349 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:06.880 because the dry county and liquor was a commodity. What 350 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.640 did he do He sent it back to his father 351 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.119 in Italy. Who was able to buy a farm, which 352 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:15.400 was the original attempt for many. Of course, some people 353 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.079 came and wanted to become American, want to assimilate, et cetera. 354 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:21.680 But there's not one size fit all. And this is 355 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.799 not an uncommon an uncommon trend. You go to any 356 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:27.559 southern Italian village and you will hear a story. My 357 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.519 grandfather went there and came back from broughtland. My uncle 358 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:32.880 went there, went back and came along and bought land. 359 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:36.200 A big reason why a lot of Italians able to 360 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.599 come here post war, after after nineteen forty five, it's 361 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:45.519 because they've had their parents were born in America and 362 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.039 then they went back and therefore their kids have American citizenship. 363 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:50.400 My barber in my neighborhood was raised in Italy, born 364 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:52.440 in Italy. His father was an American citizen. He was 365 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.599 able to easily get here in nineteen sixty eight, ninety 366 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:58.079 sixty nine. But back to my great grandfather, he's able 367 00:20:58.119 --> 00:20:59.480 to buy a farm in Italy and then he raised 368 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:01.200 his family and Italy right. He didn't come to America. 369 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.039 Who lived in American dream. He came to America because 370 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:06.200 wages were better and the opportunity was presented here, allowed 371 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:08.119 him to buy land over there, and what did he do? 372 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.799 He raises eleven kids in Italy, not in the United States. Right. 373 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:13.680 My grandmother her American citizenship right, The quote like what 374 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.200 we call it an anchor baby right was used in 375 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.920 her arranged marriage. Right for her husband to come here 376 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:21.240 and get a better opportunity than what was available in 377 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:23.559 great Depression Italy. Kind of gives you an ideal that 378 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.319 the fascists actually managed a great depression must work than 379 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:29.720 the Americans did. But it just shows you how complex, right, 380 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.119 And there isn't a single story. And again, of course 381 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:34.119 there are people who came here and wanted to learn 382 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:37.160 the language and assimily, but that's not everyone. And that 383 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:39.640 was even the majority. That fifty one percent went back, 384 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.920 and many made multiple trips and. 385 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:45.640 Interesting and as you mentioned, in each family different. My 386 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:49.880 family from the South, Okay, my grandfather was very important 387 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.640 to assimilate, and I don't believe he ever went back. 388 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.480 My grandmother would take vacations to go back, but my grandfather, 389 00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:58.519 I don't believe any ever went back. And I think 390 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.799 I mentioned the story, and I'm very sad about it. 391 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:06.079 We lost the language because he was so adamant about assimilating. 392 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.119 He would not allow Italian to be spoken in the house. 393 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.200 It was English first, in the Italian as the second language. 394 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:17.000 So right there, just between you and I, it's a 395 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.920 dissimilar some similarities, but also dissimilar. But I think you 396 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:25.039 also brought up another great point. There are many many 397 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:29.119 famous Italians internationally famous you know, Columbus being one. We've 398 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:32.039 debated that we'll save that for another day. But people 399 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:36.119 like Leia PoCA, Enrico Fermi, the great physicist, These are 400 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:40.319 certainly more commonly known internationally. But who are some of 401 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:45.160