WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.520 All right, and joining us now is James Bouvard, and 2 00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:05.200 you can find his writing his links to where he writes, 3 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:07.480 because he's published all over the place. He's got a 4 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:10.640 piece on mesas dot org that we're going to talk 5 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:13.400 about here that's excellent and historical context. I think you're 6 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:16.039 going to find it fascinating. And but you can find 7 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:19.359 him at Jimbouvard dot com because like I said, he's 8 00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:22.039 published in all different places all the time. Great to 9 00:00:22.039 --> 00:00:25.359 have you on, Jim. Thank you so much, Dana, thanks 10 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:28.440 for having me back on. It's always always very entertaining 11 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:30.440 to talk to you. And I covered this a little 12 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:32.640 bit yesterday about the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of 13 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:34.960 Concord and Lexington and Paul River's ride and everything that 14 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:38.079 happened this last weekend. But you put this in an 15 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:41.960 excellent historical context, and so I wanted to go through 16 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:45.920 some of that and you talk about you begin by 17 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:48.880 talking about Arthur Schlessinger. I remember this guy. He's like 18 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:56.240 the phototypical fighting guy. I remember him, Yeah, yeah, and 19 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:58.280 he was you know, he'd always have that pipe there, 20 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.320 you know, and he's like the you know, the mister 21 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:03.200 wasp guy of the Cia or whatever out there. What 22 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.239 was it? What was his attitude towards seventeen seventy six 23 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:07.120 the American Revolution? 24 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:10.640 Well, I mean he had the same attitude that King 25 00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:15.319 George the Third had, so basically a bunch of upity peasants. 26 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:18.400 There was there was a line that he had a 27 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:21.200 few I guess twenty years ago before he pegged out, 28 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.799 he said. Historians today conclude that the colonists were driven 29 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:29.439 to revolt in seventeen seventy six because of a false 30 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:34.200 conviction that they faced a British conspiracy to destroy their freedom. 31 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:38.400 And you have to get rid of so much evidence 32 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:40.920 in order to say it was a false conviction. It's 33 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:44.200 kind of like, yeah, like the government was shooting blanks 34 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:45.840 at Waco, you know whatever. 35 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:50.560 I saw somebody that had an op ed piece Jim 36 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:54.560 that said tariffs are what American freedom is based on. 37 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.840 It's like what I think. Terriffs were kind of what 38 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.079 they were fighting, don't you at that point in time. 39 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.840 I mean, it was just taxes right when they said, 40 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:05.640 you know, no taxation of that representation. They were talking 41 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:11.120 about terrafs, weren't they, Well, I mean terrafs, we're part 42 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:14.400 of it. Tarts were a major you know, it wasn't 43 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:17.159 just a teriff, it was a blockade. Yeah, I mean 44 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:20.000 because the because it wasn't like that they had to 45 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:21.240 pay ten percent. 46 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:24.319 More for their shoes that they imported from India. It 47 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.000 was more like that the Brits were prohibiting them from 48 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.159 making any kind of iron type goods, nails and stuff 49 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:30.520 like that. 50 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:31.520 Uh. 51 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:33.919 And they were just completely subjugated on the trade issue. 52 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:36.479 That was a major issue in the Declaration of Independence 53 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.360 a lot of people. That's not too convenient to remember 54 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:43.319 at this moment, but it was. But there were so 55 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:49.039 many ways that the British were so abusive and contemptuous 56 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:53.400 of Americans. And it took a lot to get those 57 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:55.400 farmers to get off early in the morning and get 58 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:57.360 their gun, to go out and start shooting the British 59 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.879 soldiers as they were running back from Concor to Boston. 60 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.039 And as you point out, there were pretty good shots too. 61 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.560 The British soldier. Yeah, I mean the British soldiers. There 62 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:12.120 was a wonderful line from a history almost one hundred 63 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:14.879 years ago. You said the British soldiers were there were 64 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:16.960 shots in the world and they would not be able 65 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:19.039 to hit a horse at ten yards. 66 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:23.000 Well, you know that's something imagined. In those days, there 67 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.360 were you know, not everybody had They were shooting muskets 68 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.520 and things like that, and not necessarily accurate rifles. I 69 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.759 mean we saw that in the Civil War. You know, 70 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.080 these people line up and you know, once the first 71 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:36.479 volley went off, there was nothing but a white cloud anyway, 72 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:39.759 You couldn't see anything to even try to target anybody 73 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:42.120 for the most part, and so you know it's just 74 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:44.479 like you know, load and fire as rapidly as you 75 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:46.639 can and hope that you hit something. You know, they 76 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:51.360 did have sharpshooters that were operative both in the Civil 77 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:53.000 War and in the Revolutionary War, and it was those 78 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:55.520 sharpshooters that really took a toll on the British. 79 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:59.439 Right, Yeah, it was the Daniel Morgan's men from the 80 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:02.719 Winch to Virginia area. We're famous for that. I think 81 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:05.479 it's Sarahtoga. They shot down a lot of their British officers. 82 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.680 But there was there was a whole mindset. Okay, a 83 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:11.120 lot of the Americans that have muscats like the British. 84 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.879 But I mean it's a different incentive system if you're 85 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.680 a government and if you're a government soldier, then you 86 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:21.040 need to shoot close enough for government work. Whereas if 87 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:24.959 you're a farmer and you're counting on your hunting and 88 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:26.519 you need to be able to hit the damn deer 89 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:28.879 you shoot at, you need to hit it. And the 90 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:31.839 same you got a guy with a red coat there 91 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:35.120 marching down the street. You know, Okay, it's not too 92 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:36.839 hard to hit. So that's right. 93 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.639 Yeah, their ammunition is deer, and when they're going out 94 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:41.160 to try to get the deer, say, they've got to 95 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:42.920 make every shot count. They've had a lot of practice 96 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:46.240 of that. As you point out, he had a great 97 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:49.319 quote here he said, the calmist revolted because they're being 98 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:54.160 bayoneted down the road to surf them, you know, is 99 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:56.560 going back the hyak. And that's exactly what was happening. 100 00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:58.759 You point out it was it was a taxes, it 101 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:00.600 was a terrace. And I've come across a lot of 102 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:02.639 people like Arthur Schlessenger used to take the kids when 103 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:06.279 they were younger to Colonial Williamsburg, which is a Rockefeller things. 104 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:08.439 So they'd hire a lot of people try to downplay 105 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.240 the American Revolution, you know, and they would always say, 106 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:14.160 so why why did they why did they push back 107 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:16.439 against this, you know, and they wanted me to say, 108 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:20.879 no taxation without representation. I would say, because taxation is theft, 109 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.839 and they would go, well, well, no, not really, and 110 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:26.480 it's like, well no, really it is, you know, and 111 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:28.920 then they give you their pat answer about what they 112 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:30.720 want to do. But yeah, they'd kind of try to 113 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:33.240 downplay it, and they would try to, you know, try 114 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:37.120 to rework the image of the British a little bit 115 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:41.279 there as well, without being without pushing down the Americans 116 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:42.920 too much. It's been a long time since I've been there. 117 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:45.959 I mentioned it. It's probably pretty bad, pretty bad now. 118 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.040 That was back in the nineties. Yeah, that was in 119 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:48.759 the nineties. 120 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:51.720 Yeah, it's probably gotten a lot worse. Like same as 121 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:55.079 Mono Cello. Yeah, I mean, I mean that's you know, 122 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:57.279 that's a social justice tour at this point. 123 00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:59.399 Oh yeah, yeah. We took him on one year. We 124 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:04.920 went we were up in Plymouth, rock uh for for Thanksgiving, 125 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:07.399 and I couldn't believe how politically correct all of that 126 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.439 stuff was. That was we did that about a decade 127 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:13.399 after we'd been going to Colonel Williamsburg and it's like, 128 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:17.600 this is crazy, you know, it's just this this self 129 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:22.439 flagellating parade, you know, of beating themselves up. It was. 130 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:24.720 It was crazy, but you know, still we could go 131 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:26.920 and we could see the ships. I guess it was 132 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:28.120 worth it for that, maybe, you know. 133 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.519 Yeah, I mean it's a same trouble with historical narratives 134 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:35.319 in general. When I was I was up in Boston 135 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.360 two summers ago, and I was curious because I've not 136 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.000 been not knocked around Boston for quite a while. I 137 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.800 used to live there, and I wanted to see how 138 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:49.240 they were portraying the the the history, especially the American Revolution, 139 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:52.720 and it was very much it's almost a myopic focus 140 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:55.879 on the flight of the slaves, and the slaves were 141 00:06:55.959 --> 00:07:00.240 wars badly treated. Uh and in Massachusetts was one of 142 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.519 the states, well the first states to get rid of slavery, 143 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:06.439 but it was you know, it was the same puzzlement 144 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:08.759 I had when I went to Richmond a few years ago. 145 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:11.800 And I'd gone to Richmond quite a bit as a boy. 146 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:14.720 I was a big enthusiast for the Civil War, and 147 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:19.199 they had Civil War museums then and now, but nowadays 148 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:22.839 the museums seemed to focus mostly on the plight of 149 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:25.879 women and slaves during the Civil War. Yeah, and I 150 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.759 was thinking, well, you know, actually there were also some 151 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:33.439 battles you know when I what can I say? 152 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.920 Yeah, that's right, that's what the up at Plymouth Rock. 153 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:38.839 And it was all about the Indians. And what they 154 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.040 really kind of sloughed over was the fact that the 155 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.040 Indians and the Pograms got along pretty well for a 156 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:47.040 couple of decades or a couple of generations until they 157 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:49.199 started having a King Phillips War and that type of thing. 158 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:50.920 But they wanted to ignore that. But getting back to 159 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:53.639 your op ed piece here and the lead up to 160 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:57.600 what caused all this, you talked about the Sugar Act 161 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:01.000 of seventeen sixty four. Tell us a little bit about 162 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.040 that and what that was involved in. 163 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:08.040 Okay, So, the basically what the British did with the 164 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:12.000 trade laws and regulations was making it clear that Americans 165 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.680 were completely inferior to the British and the Sugar Act 166 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:21.399 of seventeen sixty four resulted in British officials confiscating hundreds 167 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:25.000 of American ships based on mere allegations that the ship 168 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:28.800 owners and captains were involved in smuggling. Once the British 169 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.720 officials made that charge, it was up to the ship 170 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:35.279 owned to somehow proved his ship had never been involved 171 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:38.399 in smuggling. It was very difficult to prove a negative. 172 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:41.399 I mean, this is kind of the same thing we 173 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:45.159 have now at asset forfeiture laws. They've been so vexatious 174 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:50.600 for the last forty years. But the philosophical I mean, 175 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:54.000 what so many of the histories of the American Revolution 176 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:59.799 do is ignore the philosophical aspects. And the Americans back 177 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.559 then and could see the broader picture better than they 178 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.080 do now. There was a act that Parliament passed in 179 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:12.480 seventeen sixty six, the Declaratory Act of seventeen sixty six. 180 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:15.480 It said Parliament had had, and of right ought to 181 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:19.480 have full power and authority to make laws and statues 182 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:23.639 of sufficient force to bind the qualities, colonies and people 183 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:26.879 of America subject of the Crown of Britain in all 184 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.120 cases whatsoever. That meant Britain could never violate the rights 185 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:34.799 of Americans, because Americans had no right. And something I'd 186 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:37.480 not realized until I was digating this right and the 187 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:40.960 story was it was modeled after an Act of the 188 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.720 same title that they the Brits had used on Ireland 189 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:48.960 fifty years earlier really, and the British were notorious for 190 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:51.919 treating the Irish as bad or worse than slaves. 191 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:54.080 Yeah, oh yeah, Well, you know what you do is 192 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:57.399 you start out by saying that this class of people 193 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:01.320 is somehow inferior, some human, and they're not really human. 194 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:03.399 You know. You look at this and you can see 195 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:07.120 this being repeated in Gaza or wherever. But also you 196 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.039 know when, as you point out, it's very much like 197 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:13.759 civil asset forfeiture. You know, I think that this ship 198 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:16.600 was involved in smuggling and you just take it. You 199 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:18.399 don't have to. I guess. I don't know if they 200 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:20.679 would charge the people a crime or they just steal 201 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:23.039 the ship. That's what they do today with civil asset forfeiture. 202 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:25.399 They just take your property there and never even charge 203 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:27.320 you with a crime, let alone convict you of that. 204 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:29.759 Yeah, it says paperwork. 205 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:32.799 Yeah, absolutely, you know it kind of It reminded me 206 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:35.679 too when I saw that. I thought it was funny. 207 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.720 You know, we had the Decoration of Independence came exactly 208 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:43.200 ten years later, and it was a real response to 209 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:46.399 this declaratory Act. I guess because the declaratory Act is 210 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.440 saying you don't have any rights and they said, no, 211 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:50.720 we do. And our rights don't come from government, they 212 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:53.240 come from God. We have them innately as a human being. 213 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:56.600 And so it was a direct response a decade later 214 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.240 to this Declaratory Act. And I thought back, you know, 215 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.159 to one of the movies that I watched as a 216 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.039 kid that I really like because I like Patrick mcgow 217 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:08.559 and I love The Prisoner, and I remember the Scarecrow 218 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:12.720 thing that was done by done by Disney at the time, 219 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:16.600 because Disney used to Walt Disney used to take a 220 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:19.320 positive view of American history and of Americans and so. 221 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:21.879 A long time ago, that was a long time ago. 222 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.559 Things that really changed, haven't they. And so it was 223 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:29.399 in that one the uh, he's got this this cleric, 224 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:34.000 their pastor or whatever his title was, and he moonlights 225 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:37.799 as the scarecrow that's doing smuggling. And so these guys 226 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.080 are smuggling and it's all presented as justified in the 227 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:45.840 British are the villains and everything, and the it's kind 228 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:49.360 of interesting because they also show the press gangs. They 229 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.159 were going around and kidnapping people and putting them into service, 230 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.679 and of course that was a big part of what 231 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:57.679 was happening at at this time as well. They had 232 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:00.960 press gangs that were coming after Americans, not just after British. 233 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.159 Yeah, and that was part of what sparked the War 234 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:08.960 of eighteen twelve decades later. No, I mean there was 235 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:12.120 an attitude of complete contempt for anybody who wasn't part 236 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:17.000 of the aristocracy, or didn't have this title, or or 237 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:21.000 was friends of this person. So and that was part 238 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:24.279 of the novelty of the mindset of the government that 239 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:27.919 was created in seventeen In I guess seventeen eighty seven, 240 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.000 it did not have that aristocracy. It did not have 241 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:34.159 those legal privileges. I mean, the federal government claimed them 242 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:36.919 pretty quick. It made a mockery of a lot of 243 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:39.279 the ideas, but still at the start it was good. 244 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:42.480 So yeah, yeah, you mentioned too. And it was pretty 245 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:46.120 much a universal attitude of contempt by the British. There 246 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.360 were some exceptions, like William Pitt. You've got a quote 247 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:50.879 here it is forbidden to make even a nail for 248 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.960 a horseshoe. He was liked by Americans because he kind 249 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:56.799 of leaned toward the American side. I was talking about 250 00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:59.440 it yesterday. In North Carolina. One of the oldest towns 251 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.279 there is named after him Pittsburgh and they it's in 252 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:06.679 the community Chatham County, which is you know, he was 253 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:08.759 Lord Chatham and everything. So it seemed like he was 254 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:11.840 held in UH in high esteem by them. But he 255 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:14.759 did push back against King George to some degree, I guess, 256 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:15.879 perhaps not enough. 257 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:18.799 But there were yeah, and the same with Edmund Burke, 258 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.159 one of the UH, a member of Parliament who later 259 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.840 became a well known philosopher and writer. I mean there 260 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.039 there were there were a lot of radical Whigs in 261 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:32.519 England who recognized that that it was important to stand 262 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:36.519 up to stop their stop oppression in the in the colonies, 263 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:40.000 because the same precedents would echo back home eventually. 264 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:42.799 Yes, yes, and you know we look at all this 265 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:44.919 and at the time, you know, of course the slave 266 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:48.600 trade was still going and that did not that was 267 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.679 not ended, you know, Wilberforce, I don't forget what time 268 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.240 he started deposing it, but eventually he stopped the slave 269 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:57.519 trade and then he stopped, you know, freed the slaves 270 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:02.440 that they paid off the plantation owners and in the 271 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:04.919 Caribbean that were under them. But you know, they had 272 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:06.879 that attitude, as you point out, you know, this attitude 273 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:10.200 they had about slavery. That wasn't just about African slaves. 274 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.039 That was the attitude they had towards irishman. That was 275 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:14.440 the attitude that they had towards Americans at that time 276 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:14.799 as well. 277 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:18.480 Yep, yeah, yeah, and it was I mean, this is 278 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.120 something that's hard for a lot of contemporary Americans to 279 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.840 understand because they have, you know, they have this notion 280 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:30.919 they they are looking backward and not recognizing how profoundly 281 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:35.080 different the legal and moral atmosphere was back in those times. 282 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:39.159 And the absolute swagger of the British I mean, I mean, 283 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:42.960 in my dealings with government agents, I've often come across 284 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:46.320 ones that had vast swagger, and I can understand how 285 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:50.399 that would breed hatred and eventually, but if they rubbed 286 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:53.039 too many noses in the dirt, it would lead to 287 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.279 a violent revolt, and that's happened throughout history. 288 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.960 But it wasn't so much racism based on skin color. 289 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:04.360 They just equally hated everybody, right, well, yeah, dominate everybody. 290 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:04.799 It was. 291 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:08.440 I mean, it was people who were inferior, and the 292 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:14.919 Americans were inferior to British and especially to the British 293 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.159 officials appointed by the Crown or the British military officers 294 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:23.399 or even the the British customs officials who had a 295 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.639 right to go into anybody's house and search to see 296 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:28.919 if they had any property that they had not paid 297 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.120 a terif on maybe you know, I don't hopefully this 298 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:37.080 doesn't give anybody in Washington ideas right now, but this 299 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.759 is this is I mean, it was the writs of 300 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.440 Assistance which the government would give its soldiers or others 301 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:47.159 and title them to break into anybody's house, search all 302 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.919 their papers, search this search that. I mean, it was 303 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:51.559 almost as bad as a NSA. 304 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:53.879 Yeah, that's right, because that's what they're doing all the time, 305 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.399 whether you realize it or not. They're breaking into your 306 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:58.759 house and they're looking through your papers and your private 307 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:02.679 effects by going into your computer. That's I've talked about 308 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.320 that people people say, we don't have a violation of 309 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:07.399 the Third Amendment. It's like, do you realize what the 310 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.679 government is doing with your computer? They're actually living in 311 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.480 your house, whether you realize it or not, they're living 312 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:15.679 there with you. You just don't see them. They're they're 313 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.919 virtually which perhaps is even worse, I guess. 314 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.840 But yeah, which is I mean, but it's just good 315 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.120 that they're there to protect us from ourselves. 316 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:24.320 Isn't it great? 317 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:24.600 Yeah? 318 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:26.759 I feel so much safer knowing that they're in my 319 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.080 house watching everything that I'm doing. You talk a little 320 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.080 bit about John Locke, and of course his Second Treatise 321 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.000 on Government predated this stuff by about a century, but 322 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.279 that really was a big part of the philosophical foundation. 323 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:42.759 You know, these are people who are not watching Gilligan's Island. 324 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:48.039 They were reading books, they were talking to other people 325 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:51.399 who had read books, and they're debating these ideas and 326 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:55.039 forming these ideas. There was a full century of you know, 327 00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:00.200 locking in philosophy that was underlying their pushback, right, yeah. 328 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:02.799 Yeah, And there were some wonderful lines for lock here, 329 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:06.359 one of which resume with a colonists was he who 330 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.519 attempts to get another man into his absolute power does 331 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.640 thereby put himself into a state of war with him? Yes, 332 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.640 And if you look at that seventeen seventy six Act 333 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.480 by Parliament, that's you know, basically proclaiming it's an act 334 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:27.440 of war, that you're just that since you have no rights. 335 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:31.279 And another one of my favorite John Locke quotes, I 336 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.559 have no reason to suppose that he who would take 337 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:36.400 away my liberty, would not when he had me in 338 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.359 his power take away everything else. 339 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:44.599 Was he around It sounds like he's describing twenty twenty. 340 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:47.440 Well yeah, I. 341 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:53.440 Mean yeah, but he saw into the future like Master Damas. 342 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:55.480 You know, he could see twenty twenty in the lockdown. 343 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:57.960 But what we're talking about here is human nature. And 344 00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.640 that's one of the reasons why it's important to go 345 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:04.480 back and to look at, you know, the the understanding 346 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:08.119 of the nature of tyranny and the zero sum game 347 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.279 here about who's going to make decisions about my life. 348 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:12.480 You know, it's important for us to understand that because 349 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:15.079 all these attitudes, as you point out, you run into officious, 350 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:19.240 arrogant bureaucrats all the time. We all do, and and 351 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:22.440 so it's important to understand how human nature plays into this, 352 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:25.200 and it's important to understand that we have these same 353 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.519 types of problems. I run into people all the time 354 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:29.880 who say, well, you know that was back then. We're 355 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.000 not at all like them, We're so much more advanced. 356 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.359 I had one guy saying, what Thomas Jefferson, he didn't 357 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:37.559 know anything. He wouldn't even be able to drive a car. 358 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:41.559 It's like, are you kidding me, you know. So there's 359 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:46.079 that kind of an attitude towards you know, they don't 360 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:48.200 know anything because they didn't have televisions, you know, and 361 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:50.160 it's like maybe they know a lot more because they 362 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.519 didn't have televisions. So you know, there's this kind of 363 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:55.599 the people in the past didn't know anything. But human 364 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.720 nature doesn't change. And that's why it's so timeless to 365 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:01.359 see the types of things. Is that Locke said, the 366 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.559 way the government was trying to impose its authority on 367 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:07.000 the Americans and how they pushed back against it. 368 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.960 Yeah, and what people don't realize. Okay, so Thomas Jefferson 369 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.799 was not able to drive a corvette and he didn't 370 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:19.440 have a television. But there has not been that much 371 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:23.559 change in the nature of politicians and the nature of tyranny. 372 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:27.920 And so you still have I mean, folks who are saying, well, 373 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:30.640 things are different now, Okay, how would you judge the 374 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.640 moral and intellectual caliber of the average member of Congress 375 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.519 right now, okay versus two hundred years ago. I mean, 376 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.640 I don't see much improvement. Okay, they might get a 377 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.279 little better they you know, they might have some you Okay, 378 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:48.759 they got a law degree, they got this, they got that, 379 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:53.000 but there's still weasels and it's kind of like, okay, 380 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:56.720 so and they're still untrustworthy. And that was one of 381 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.680 the wonderful things the Founding Fathers recognized. I mus, Jefferson 382 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.880 was very eloquent on that don't trust any man with power. 383 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.000 I mean, it goes back to the seventeen ninety eight 384 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.920 was it the Kentucky resolution? Yeah. I think you might 385 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:15.480 have that the key quotes on that closer to your 386 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:16.359 memory than I do. 387 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:19.039 But yeah, because I was just talking about the you know, 388 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.359 the I see all this stuff that Trump was doing 389 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.480 in terms of shutting down free speech on campus and 390 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:25.920 about kicking people out summarily and everything. I say, this 391 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:28.640 is like a reenactment of the Alien ins Edition Act. 392 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:32.680 You know, this is history repeating itself, a rhyming, you know, 393 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:33.839 at the very least, isn't it. 394 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:39.079 Yeah? And you know, there were good you know, part 395 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:44.160 of the lucid and eloquent nature of Jefferson's resolutions and 396 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.799 the same with Madison, was that they that they recognized 397 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:50.839 how danger of power was once it's awful leash. Yeah, 398 00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:55.000 And it's frustrating to me because hell, I've been arguing 399 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:58.200 that my whole damn career. And I was talking to 400 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.039 a foreign gentleman a couple of days go, and he said, well, 401 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:03.240