WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.080 Welcome to the Nonprofits the thrice weekly show, where we 2 00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:06.040 address news and current events through the lens of atheism 3 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:08.640 and secular humanism. For our first segment this week, we'll 4 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.199 be looking south to Oklahoma, where some fishy things have 5 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:14.960 been happening with their statewide school standards. Steven Harder, please 6 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:16.359 give us the lowdown. 7 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:20.600 You bet, thanks so much, Scott. Oklahoma's Superintendent of Public Instruction, 8 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:23.839 Ryan Walters, is in hot water again, this time from 9 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:28.600 nearly three dozen religious leaders, atheists, parents, students, and even teachers. 10 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.000 He and his state Department of Education are being sued 11 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:35.640 for not only the new education standards that they have published, 12 00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:39.679 but also for how they went about enacting them. Highlights, 13 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:44.280 or rather low lights, include things such as injecting Christian 14 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:49.119 nationalist talking points into all grade levels, teaching conspiracy theories 15 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:53.640 as facts, and quickly changing what was and wasn't included 16 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:57.399 in the four hundred page document mere hours before it 17 00:00:57.439 --> 00:00:59.920 was supposed to be voted upon. Plaintiffs requests that the 18 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.920 new standards be struck down before the new school year 19 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:06.879 begins in the fall. This story is from The Friendly 20 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:11.359 Atheist and Matt Meta on July second, twenty and twenty five. 21 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:13.640 All right, thanks, Steven, I want to stay with you 22 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:16.680 for a second. Let's pick this apart a little bit here. 23 00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:20.040 The article talked about there's odd timing with how these 24 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:22.719 changes in the standards were presented to the state Board 25 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:25.719 of Education. What happened with that odd? 26 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:29.319 Indeed, like a quick breakdown of the timeline, we'd be 27 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:32.879 looking at, say December twenty twenty four, that's when Walter's 28 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:36.079 first submits a draft of the standards that gains a 29 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:40.280 lot of national attention because they are aggressively pushing reiight 30 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:44.239 wing talking points onto children. Then later on, in May 31 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:47.359 twenty twenty five, just a couple months ago, Walter doubles 32 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:50.760 down on some of the most problematic portions, making them 33 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:54.959 even worse, and submits this updated four hundred page version 34 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:59.120 around four pm, so end of day, the day before 35 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:02.760 the vote takes place, So about nine hours later, the 36 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:05.200 committee meets and votes to pass on the standards. No 37 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:08.159 one's had time to review the four hundred page document 38 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:10.639 to see what has and hasn't been changed. They just 39 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:13.080 vote on it, didn't go with it. But a week later, 40 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:16.400 people start digging in and they start noticing the differences 41 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:20.080 and that's when his underhanded tactics come to light and 42 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:24.879 backlash increases. Now July second, the suit was filed arguing 43 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:28.439 that the standards violate the Constitution, the whole separation of 44 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:32.360 church and state, the process lacks transparency, and they should 45 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:35.000 be struck down before the new school year begins. 46 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:39.639 All right, Yeah, that definitely seems like kind of a shift. Shifty. 47 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:41.800 I think we're being generous there when we say that 48 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:43.879 that was shifty. I want to jump over to Eli 49 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:44.360 for a second. 50 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:44.520 Here. 51 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:47.360 Stevens just laid out some of these questionable strategies that 52 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:51.080 they used to get it through the approval process. How 53 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:53.400 else was the system right there? I think there's I 54 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:55.840 think we're just scratching the surface here. What else is 55 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:58.120 going on? How did he rig the system in his 56 00:02:58.240 --> 00:02:59.879 favor in getting these changes? 57 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.960 Asked so because it goes beyond like it's not just 58 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.199 a biblical indoctrination, which he swears he's not doing, by 59 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:11.479 the way, but like he's he's taking that and he's 60 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:15.719 shoehorning it into a bill that also mandates things that 61 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:18.639 you know, are that people will generally agree with, like 62 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:21.800 free breakfast and lunch for kids, and like more funds 63 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:24.000 going towards the benefit of the students instead of what 64 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.199 he calls like the bureaucratic bloat, which is like administrative 65 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:31.560 fees and bureaucratic fees for the school, more money for teachers, 66 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.280 more incentives for teachers, and things like that to attract, like, 67 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:38.479 you know, and keep more teachers in the state. So 68 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:40.120 these are things that are on the surface if you 69 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:43.000 don't pay attention to like the details of how he 70 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.520 wants it done. On the surface, they sound good, but 71 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:49.599 then he so he's taking people that want to vote 72 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:52.039 in favor of those things because they really really want 73 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:55.240 Oklahoma to come up from like forty ninth I think 74 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:57.800 forty eighth or forty ninth in the country in education. 75 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:00.599 And they're like, well, if I have to deal with 76 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:04.520 the Bible, you know, to make that happen, then you know, 77 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.400 is that really all that bad? And I think, you know, 78 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:10.080 people are going to feel differently about that. 79 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.240 But there's almost literally it's like a shit filled eminem, right, 80 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:16.240 he's candy quoting. 81 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:22.439 Yeah, yeah, I mean in a way. Yeah, And the 82 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:25.879 thing is that the candy coding isn't even all that 83 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:30.040 effective because like the lunch program, for example, isn't viable 84 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:34.639 in most districts. He wants them to submit budgets immediately 85 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:38.319 detailing how they're going to account for the free meals 86 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:41.920 for the students from funds that they are already getting. 87 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:45.040 He's not planning to allocate more funds for the purpose 88 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:46.199 of doing this. 89 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:48.319 He funded mandates. Is that what you're saying? 90 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:49.839 Unfunded mandated? Yeah? 91 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:50.680 Yeah, okay, and. 92 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:56.000 Then he intends to if they cannot comply, if they 93 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.800 can't work it into their budget, he'll send some people 94 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:01.160 to talk to their budget, and if they just can't 95 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:03.680 make it work, he will withdraw state funding from the 96 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:07.920 school to punish them, I guess for being poor. So 97 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:12.000 it at first it sounds like a shit filled eminem, 98 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:15.920 but once you get closer, it's it's not. It's just shit. 99 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:23.519 Okay, So maybe just painted to look like an eminem. Yeah, well, 100 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:26.160 there's there's there's definitely a road we can go down there. 101 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:28.639 I should probably divert us right away. I want to 102 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:32.800 jump back to Steven here. So obviously his methodology is 103 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:37.160 again will be generous, questionable at best here, But what 104 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:39.480 were what's some of the meat of what was going 105 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:41.439 on here? What were some of the additions and changes 106 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:43.519 that the new standards are going to focus on it. 107 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:46.000 Yeah, well, like he is very very proud of the 108 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.519 fact that there are forty references to the Bible in 109 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:52.800 these new standards that are sprinkled across all grade levels. 110 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.720 So it's like in every every grade level learning about 111 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.800 just how important the Bible is and how we need 112 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:02.319 to give two talk about what the Bible says because 113 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:07.199 for fallacious reasons obviously. Also it talks about how students 114 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:12.399 are to understand how Christian morality shaped American law and government, 115 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:18.160 which just just smacks of indoctrination and not an iota 116 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:21.720 of critical thinking of actually asking like, is this actually 117 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:26.399 does a stand up to scrutiny, because what is Christian morality? 118 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:29.720 Apparently it can mean anything from owning slaves if you're 119 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:34.160 asking the founding fathers, certainly any kind of racist undertones 120 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:37.079 as well. And there's new facts to be talked to 121 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:41.519 students as well, things that yeah, of course knew, not 122 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:44.759 not the fake facts, the real facts of how maybe 123 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:49.000 COVID nineteen was created in a Chinese lab and maybe 124 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:53.120 there were let's explore the discrepancies in the twenty twenty election, 125 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:58.839 just all stuff that President Pumpkin would love, love, love 126 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:01.480 what he would feel so firm, so validated to know 127 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:05.959 that children, children with taxpayer money are being fed this 128 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:07.639 by authorities in their lives. 129 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:11.040 I don't know, call me crazy, but that sounds like 130 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:12.800 a big misuse of power there to me. 131 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:13.240 I don't know. 132 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:16.439 I want to jump back over to to to Eli. 133 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:16.720 Here. 134 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:19.680 So Stephen was talking about some specific content changes that 135 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:21.800 have been pushed through, but I want to I was 136 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:24.560 wondering if you could address some new directions for the 137 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.360 philosophy of this of the social Studies curriculum. I mean, 138 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:30.240 what are some of the other more maybe broad strokes 139 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:31.519 on the changes they're making here. 140 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:34.279 Yes, so, and I was grateful to him at metaphor 141 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.480 this being the journalist that he is, he included some 142 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:42.040 screenshots of the bill and the curriculum that talked about 143 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.399 you know what. He wanted to include some specific examples. So, 144 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:47.759 firstly is the idea that he wants to that that 145 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:52.600 Ryan Walters wants to incorporate American exceptionalism into the social 146 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.160 studies curriculum, which is this idea that the United States, 147 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:58.759 which contrary to the name, he does not mean all 148 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:02.240 of the Americas he means the United States is inherently 149 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:09.079 exceptional because of all of the influence that you know, 150 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.360 the early settlers and the founders had from the juju 151 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.279 from the Christian Bible. It's not just that we need 152 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:17.800 to give two fucks, like you said, Stephen about the Bible. 153 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:22.839 It's that the giving of fuck comes from the Bible. 154 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:27.120 And that's kind of where you know that passage. 155 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:32.240 Yes, it was the eleventh commandment, give a. 156 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:33.039 Fuck to the Bible. 157 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.159 Okay, got you. But there's some examples from the curricula 158 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:41.320 for in first grade, for example, explain the purpose and 159 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.440 meeting and meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance and the 160 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.879 significance of the phrase under God. And by that I 161 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.600 don't think he means the fact that it was added 162 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.320 to the Pledge of Allegiance in nineteen fifty four, right, 163 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:56.360 not when it was written originally. 164 00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:59.480 Identifying the frying print, Right, you got to read the 165 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:01.799 print to get that kind of stuff right. 166 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:05.120 Identify and explain the meaning of the United States official 167 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:08.600 motto in God we Trust, including the importance of religion 168 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.720 to the American people. I guess we're not Americans. Well, 169 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.639 I mean, Stephen, but Scott, I guess, I guess we're 170 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:19.279 not Americans because religion is not important to us. You know. 171 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:23.279 Second grade identify stories from Christianity that influence the American 172 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:27.600 colonists and the founders and culture, including the teachings of 173 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.279 Jesus and Nazareth e g. The Golden Rule and the 174 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:34.200 Sermon on the Mount, and for eighth graders, evaluate the 175 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:37.679 role of Judeo Christian ideals in supporting colonial demands for 176 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.960 independence as exemplified. This is specific in the Greek as 177 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:46.480 exemplified by the Bible being a frequently cited authority by 178 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:51.919 America's founders. I'd be like, if that were naturally the conclusion, 179 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.080 Like when you when you say evaluate the world Judeo 180 00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:57.600 Christian ideals, you know in this thing, I feel like 181 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:02.039 if you have to say, as exemplify by this specific 182 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:06.279 thing like that, it's because that's not a natural answer 183 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.000 to to like what you're asking for. And you're like, 184 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:14.399 what he's saying is teach specifically this because specifically this, 185 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:18.519 and like he's he says, you know, we don't want 186 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:21.559 to preach to in in the classrooms. We shouldn't be 187 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:27.159 indoctrinating the students, wink wink. But what he says is 188 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:31.440 to focus on the historical, literary, and secular value of 189 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.559 the King James version of the Bible. And I think 190 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:39.639 that there is no historical or literary value in that 191 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.279 Bible that you can't get from anywhere else. And there's 192 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:46.919 no other secular value to speak of that I'm aware of. 193 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:51.759 And the thing makes maybe a good paper weight or something, 194 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:53.720 and they I suppose that would be a secular value, 195 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:55.960 right yeah, pap, Wait. 196 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:59.519 Really not even go ahead like well, like secularly speaking, 197 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:03.879 like I like I am. I'm thrilled when these lawmakers, 198 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:06.039 you know, tip their hand and say, well, it's got 199 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.120 to be the new King James version, because like, the 200 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:13.759 more that children can be forced to endure the King 201 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:17.840 James version of all versions, the more they can distance 202 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:21.879 themselves and say this is bullshit, I don't really care 203 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.600 about this. That will that change them from like identifying 204 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:27.159 oh yeah, I'm Christian on the surface. No, but at 205 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:30.480 least that won't have any The more that they get 206 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:34.919 forced into this kind of exposure, hopefully, the less roots 207 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:38.200 they actually are able to put down, especially using a 208 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:39.399 version like the King James. 209 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.200 I wonder if it would just kind of reinforce what 210 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:43.279 they're learning in church. 211 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:45.679 You know what I mean, that's the whole point. I mean, 212 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:47.559 isn't exactly the objective here. 213 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:49.320 That's kind of That's kind of what I thought, because 214 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:51.159 I remember when I was a kid of thinking how 215 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:54.000 different the things were that I was learning on Sunday 216 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:57.879 and then learning Monday through Friday. And so the idea 217 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:01.000 here is put the same thing from Sunday and every 218 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.320 other day so that they get this consistent this this 219 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:10.159 consistent influx of his information, and it will seem more true, 220 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:12.360 it will feel more naturally true, I. 221 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.360 Guess, right, yeah, or at least less conflict to deal with, 222 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.519 it would be it makes it easy to swallow basically 223 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:24.679 sticking with that eminem metaphor there, right, yeah, so coaches 224 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.399 with a spoonful of sugar. I want to jump back 225 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:30.279 to Stephen real quick here. So I think we all 226 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:32.679 know what the real motivation is here, right. We want 227 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:38.360 to this is unashamed, unadulterated indoctrination of Oklahoma's children. And 228 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.919 I mean, can you expand on that a little bit more? 229 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:42.360 I mean you were just kind of touching on it 230 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:43.799 a little bit there. I mean, what do you what 231 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.799 do you think about that they're doing this to the 232 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:47.879 Oklahoma's children. 233 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.799 Yeah, like it was. It was so good for me. 234 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:51.440 Like it was. 235 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.960 It was like for me to just like dig into 236 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.120 this article and the why why is this happening, and 237 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:01.080 it just became like a real crystal moment that white 238 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:06.080 supremacy doesn't need burning crosses anymore, that this is all 239 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:11.639 about feeding a Christian nationalist base, sucking off President Pumpkin, 240 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:15.879 dumbing down the public, and paving the way to privatize education. 241 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.799 All of those things. All of those things are things 242 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.039 that support folks that have privilege while erasing those without. 243 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:27.639 There's nothing, there's nothing about this that is trying to 244 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:32.399 increase diversity. It's all about crystallizing power around the people 245 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:35.480 who have power. It's about building those buttresses, about building 246 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.720 those barriers, and this is a way of radicalizing children. 247 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.039 It's so great to be able to look at countries 248 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.399 that we cultures that were not familiar here right in 249 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.159 North America, to look to places in Asia, to look 250 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:52.840 to places in the Middle East, and to not understand 251 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:56.240 how they can be so different, so barbaric in air quotes, 252 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:02.759 and like even just the idea of Israeli's mentally checking 253 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:04.840 out and say, well, no, they're not really human, they're 254 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:07.399 just Palestinians. They're a different kind of human. And for 255 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:10.320 us to be like, whoa, that is so radical? How 256 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:12.799 could you possibly think that? And to see that, Okay, 257 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:14.720 this is what this is how you get to that 258 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.600 place by feeding children this kind of bullshit and just 259 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:22.559 using your power, using your privilege to force it upon them, 260 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:24.919 and too like this is just a buttressing of that 261 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:30.559 that system, a systematic marginalization of people who aren't in power. 262 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.200 I'm getting I'm getting a weird sense of deja vu 263 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:36.559 as I listened to you there, Steve, and it seems like, hmm, 264 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:41.039 this seems like some kind of recurring theme. Eli. So 265 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:43.879 how do you think this fits into like a bigger 266 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:46.960 strategy for Christian nationalism in the United States. 267 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:50.000 Well, we were just we just talked about this, I 268 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.519 think it was last week on a non profits. Texas 269 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:57.840 just passed the same thing, the Ten Commandments in public schools. 270 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:02.600 We covered this on Oklahoma when they first put you know, 271 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:06.159 Ryan Walters. We talk about Ryan Walters a lot. I 272 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.480 feel like maybe he and I should kiss. I don't know. 273 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:16.000 But the point being, every week on the nonprofits. 274 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.440 Yeah, we talked about him so much. I just feel like, 275 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.320 I don't know, let's just get it over with Ryeber. 276 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.799 But sorry, I lost my train of thought. Texas just 277 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:30.559 did the same thing last week. He he wants the 278 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:36.440 KJV in classes UH five through twelve, Grades five through twelve, 279 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.960 Ryan Walters does in Oklahoma. And like I mentioned a 280 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.159 little bit ago, it's for you know, the secular value. 281 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:46.000 And color me skeptical, but I don't know of any 282 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.120 secular value like I mentioned a minute ago, that you 283 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:53.519 can get out of the Bible. And the only value 284 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:57.440 I see that is novel to the Christian Bible is 285 00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:01.600 theological in nature. So like the moral codes you get 286 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:04.399 them from you know, you get them from Sumerians, from 287 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.120 the code of Hammurabi, from Uh the Submerians. Was like 288 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.600 or namu, I think, But like you know, all those 289 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:14.200 more ancient codes than the Hebrew law that these you know, 290 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:17.720 Judeo Christian values are coming from. You can get them 291 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:22.159 elsewhere without the theology. So why is it specifically the Bible, 292 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.799 Why is it specifically the Christian Bible, And why is 293 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:28.200 it specifically the KJV. It's just it's it's the same 294 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:33.120 they're they're just they want the same blanket Christianity across 295 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.480 the the you know, the nation. And it has been 296 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:40.559 said many times before any man I can't remember the 297 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:42.480 words of I think it was Hamilton who had said 298 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:46.240 it originally, Like whoever, and any any church, any government 299 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.279 that can rule you know, on one you know, sect 300 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:52.679 of Christianity can rule out any other sect of Christianity. Right, 301 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:54.120 So yeah, it doesn't. 302 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:57.039 Yeah, that's something that I think that many religious people 303 00:16:57.240 --> 00:16:59.399 kind of miss out on. You know, they're they're push 304 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.240 in favor of theocratic I mean, and this and this 305 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.799 really does reek of theocracy here, right, we're incorporating the 306 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:09.839 theology into the school, into the school curriculum. But any 307 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:12.920 kind of theocracy, you run the risk of losing that 308 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:17.519 religious freedom. Religious freedom is not just freedom from religion, 309 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:20.720 but also freedom on what kind of religion you want 310 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.799 to you want to be a part of. And so 311 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.079 if I mean, this kind of thing is just as 312 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.359 bad for other Christians as it is for Muslims, as 313 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.160 it is for Hindus, as it is for the non 314 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.359 religious like us or or whomever, or people who are 315 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.400 staunchly Christian and just want to have a secular government, 316 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.720 and you know it's it's it's really very troubling. So 317 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.759 thanks for that, Eli. I want to I have a 318 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:47.039 question that I want to address to both of you. Textbooks. 319 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.519 Textbooks are an issue because because we're not when you 320 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.720 change standards, when you make drastic changes to standards like that, 321 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:55.279 it's not just like, oh, the schools just need to 322 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:57.920 change what they say next Wednesday, you know, change this 323 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:00.200 one paragraph. I mean even though they have to get 324 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.759 all new materials, they need to have textbooks designed around 325 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.880 those standards, and they have to have teacher training and 326 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:08.359 all this kind of stuff. So it really is a 327 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.440 significant effort on the part of the school districts to 328 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.880 implement these changes. It's not just a wave of a 329 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.519 pen or sneaking something under the wire like happened here. 330 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:21.920 So I have a two part question here, and I'll 331 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.440 give you both a chance to take a stab at here. First, 332 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.680 is so, given the political climate in the US today, 333 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.079 do you think these changes in the standards can survive? 334 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:36.400 I mean, obviously there against the US Constitution, but these 335 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.759 days that doesn't guarantee that something's going to get struck down. 336 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:41.920 You know, do you think they're likely to be revoked 337 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.240 and or rewritten. Are they going to stay for a 338 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:47.359 little while or is this the bell weather for bigger 339 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:50.119 changes that are on the horizon. That's part one. Part 340 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:54.720 two is assuming that publishers will us for these really 341 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.319 highly specialized changes in the standards in time for the 342 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:00.880 upcoming school year. Right, we got just like another two 343 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.480 months until the school year starts. Do you think that 344 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:07.200 independent publishers like oh, I don't know, Prager, you or 345 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.640 the Heritage Foundation or anything like that, do you think 346 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:11.720 they're going to step up and fill in the gap there? 347 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:13.839 Do you think that might be part of the intention? 348 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.920 Could we even see chick tracks in Oklahoma classrooms? And 349 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:20.039 so I want to I want to start with Stephen 350 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:22.319 there first. Do you think these changes are likely to 351 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.640 stay or are they? Are they a sign of what's 352 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:28.119 more to come? And do you think that the the 353 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:32.640 late introduction of these for this coming school year do 354 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:34.400 you think that was maybe part of the plan so 355 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:36.880 that they could use some of this uh private uh 356 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:38.440 privately produced materials? 357 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.400 Well, I don't know. That would sound kind of profitable 358 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:45.000 for these Christian publishing places to be able to churn 359 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:49.400 out and get these books off their shelves into government 360 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.759 run schools. That's I don't know. I don't think Christian 361 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:56.519 publishing houses are that unethical, are they? Yeah, yeah, it's 362 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.599 thankfully Yeah, it would be an issue like not only 363 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.839 for you know, generating textbooks out of nowhere, clearly they 364 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.400 would have to be reaching out to Zondervan or some 365 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:11.839 other publishing place to help fill those gaps. But also 366 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:16.160 like I'm not a I'm not a classroom teacher, but 367 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.160 just the idea that suddenly I need to be reworking 368 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:23.680 all of my materials to emphasize these new standards, and 369 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.200 that that doesn't sound like a quick and easy overhaul. 370 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:30.880 There is no small task there. That is a major 371 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.319 deal there, that's right, right, Yeah, of course, yeah, if 372 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:34.839 you care. 373 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:38.720 And especially for for Christians, for teachers who are not Christians, 374 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:40.359 who aren't a member of the faith or are part 375 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.680 of a different faith. Like yeah, let's I don't know, 376 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:45.920 I don't know if Hindus are allowed to live in Oklahoma. 377 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:47.599 I don't know if they're allowed to teach in Oklahoma. 378 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:50.440 But what do they know about? Are they as well 379 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:54.039 versed in the Sermon on the Mount as everybody else? Right? 380 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:58.400 Should they have to be and yet will it stand? 381 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.519 I hope that it doesn't, but I also hope that 382 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:04.279 we're living in a simulated. 383 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.599 Reality exactly exactly. Ye don't we all? Eli, I want 384 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.240 to abandon the questions that I was just asking because Steven, 385 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.079 what Stephen was saying just kind of gave me a 386 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.119 question here, So I want to I want to focus 387 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.160 on one last thing before we wrap things up here, 388 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.559 and that is the idea that so the teachers, there 389 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:24.880 might be non Christian teachers in Oklahoma that have to 390 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:28.920 learn this material. Do you think they're trying to proselytize 391 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.279 the teachers as well with this? 392 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.160 That is super interesting because I didn't take it exactly 393 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:36.119 that direction, but when Steven said that, I thought the 394 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:38.880 same thing, like, Yeah, there's a bunch there's got to 395 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:42.000 be teachers that like don't really know the stories in 396 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.720 the Bible. Now they have to spend the next you know, 397 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.640 two forty two to four to five weeks not only 398 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:50.440 preparing all their other lesson plans, but also reading the 399 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.759 Bible and familiarizing themselves with what it says so that 400 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.119 they can teach it in the ways that they're expected to. 401 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:02.319