1 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:20,519 Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production. When it comes 2 00:00:20,559 --> 00:00:24,839 to Israel Keys as Washington victims, I've never believed that 3 00:00:24,879 --> 00:00:28,199 there were only four, and over time and by paying 4 00:00:28,199 --> 00:00:32,200 great attention to how Keys described these murders, I feel 5 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,320 fairly confident that I know how Keys used semantics to 6 00:00:36,359 --> 00:00:41,920 mislead the FBI without actually lying to them in those conversations. 7 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,000 There's an undercurrent of specificity throughout the course of his 8 00:00:46,119 --> 00:00:49,399 FBI interviews and in his writings confiscated from his cell, 9 00:00:49,759 --> 00:00:53,719 Keys essentially lays out the following about his Washington State victims. 10 00:00:54,719 --> 00:00:58,679 There were two unrelated victims killed on separate incidents and 11 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:03,079 then disposed of using his boat. There was a male 12 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:06,879 female couple who were killed during the same incident. The 13 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,040 woman was killed first, and Keys accidentally killed the man 14 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,599 while trying to subdue him with a shovel. At least 15 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,560 one of his Washington victims was killed in the eastern 16 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,959 jurisdiction of the state, presumably in the area of Ellensburg. 17 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,719 As best we can tell from the files and audio 18 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,519 made available to us and my conversations with Agent Ted Halla, 19 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,000 this is all we know for certain about Washington's specific victims. 20 00:01:36,439 --> 00:01:40,000 But by Halla's logic, there would have been at least 21 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,040 one more, because if Halla truly believes Keyes did not 22 00:01:44,079 --> 00:01:47,719 commit any murders until after the army, the victim ruled 23 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,719 accidental would have to be a Washington State victim as well. 24 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:57,519 Keyes said that victim was a long long time ago. Additionally, 25 00:01:58,159 --> 00:02:01,439 Keyes told us that his first murder went perfectly and 26 00:02:01,719 --> 00:02:04,879 just as planned, which would rule out the male female 27 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:08,840 couple where he accidentally killed the male, and it would 28 00:02:08,879 --> 00:02:11,879 rule out the person ruled accidental, where he didn't have 29 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,280 enough time to finish things up and had to leave 30 00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:18,240 the victim out in the open. So either Halla is 31 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,599 right that Keys didn't murder until after the army, but 32 00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:26,800 wrong that there are only four Washington victims, or Keys 33 00:02:26,879 --> 00:02:32,759 killed people before leaving the army, or both. And but 34 00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:36,800 also when looking at how Keys described his earlier homicides, 35 00:02:37,439 --> 00:02:40,919 we have to be very careful about Washington State crimes 36 00:02:41,319 --> 00:02:46,919 versus Washington area crimes because throughout media reports and even 37 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,560 in the FBI files, those two statements are used interchangeably, 38 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:57,560 but with someone as specific as Israel Keys, we cannot 39 00:02:57,599 --> 00:03:03,919 assume they mean the same thing. This is true crime bullshit. 40 00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:10,039 The serialized investigation into Israel Keys season seven, episode ten. 41 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:19,639 Undercurrent Israel Keys could be very specific about there only 42 00:03:19,719 --> 00:03:24,800 being four Washington State victims while lying by omission about 43 00:03:24,879 --> 00:03:30,400 victims in Oregon, Idaho, and Montana. Kutine being a great example. 44 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,879 If Keyes killed someone in Idaho while he was living 45 00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:39,199 in Washington, he likely wouldn't consider that victim a Washington victim, 46 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,479 maybe a Washington area victim. But we know that Keyes 47 00:03:44,599 --> 00:03:49,039 likes to mislead through details. This also means that Keyes's 48 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,039 description of killing a male female couple in his letter 49 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,080 to his brothers, wherein he discusses pine needles on the 50 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,240 ground and killing the woman near her car and then 51 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,439 burying them in a valley, does doesn't necessarily mean that 52 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:04,240 that's the same couple he included in his list of 53 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,120 Washington victims, or perhaps they were killed in Washington but 54 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:14,560 from another state, or vice versa. I think the FBI, 55 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,519 or at least Agent Haula, is severely limiting their search 56 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,360 for Keys as victims by taking him at his word 57 00:04:22,199 --> 00:04:27,480 rather than carefully dissecting his words. As you well know 58 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,120 by now, we have not found a couple that matches 59 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:34,680 the FBI's narrative around the male female couple from Washington. 60 00:04:35,639 --> 00:04:38,879 There is no missing or murdered couple in eastern Washington, 61 00:04:39,639 --> 00:04:42,439 known to each other or not, who match the time 62 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:47,879 frame and description specifically set around hunters. I have searched 63 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,439 extensively for missing travelers, to unknown people who disappeared on 64 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,959 the same day, a missing couple who were later found dead, 65 00:04:56,399 --> 00:04:59,959 and nothing matches what Key said about the Washington male 66 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:05,079 female couple and what Keys wrote in his letter. Now, 67 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,480 this is to say that there aren't any Many cases 68 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,720 don't make it on to national registers. Many cases get 69 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,800 little to no media coverage. Most missing sex workers never 70 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,800 even get reported. There are massive gaps in reporting that 71 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:26,160 we continually have to consider. But even then, when you 72 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,480 consider everything Keys has said and Hala has told us, 73 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,120 it's tough to find even one person who might make 74 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:37,480 up half of that couple. Specifically, when you consider this, 75 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:38,360 he did. 76 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,959 Speaker 2: Talk about at one point a bunch of his early 77 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,759 victims didn't get moved, so you know, the initial contact 78 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,120 with them was also the crime scene with them, so 79 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,639 I know later that kind of changes with the couriers 80 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,759 and stuff, But earlier on, I know he shared that 81 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,759 he wasn't moving them, you know, where he found him 82 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:02,120 is where the crime scene ended up being. 83 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: Over the next few episodes will be exploring whether there 84 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,199 could be multiple male female couples killed in and around 85 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,199 Washington State between nineteen ninety nine, when Keys was first 86 00:06:23,199 --> 00:06:25,959 stationed at Fort Lewis and the spring of two thousand 87 00:06:25,959 --> 00:06:29,879 and seven, when Keys moved to Alaska. Because while we 88 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,759 cannot find a couple who matches all of the descriptions 89 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:36,160 we have of the male female couple, we can find 90 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,279 multiple couples who match either the description in the letter 91 00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:44,079 or the details Keys told the FBI and the interrogations. 92 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,959 So considering these a separate incidents, here's what we know. 93 00:06:49,439 --> 00:06:52,720 According to Keyes's statements to the FBI about the Washington 94 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,680 male female couple, they were killed in Washington State. The 95 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:01,680 woman was killed first, a man was accidentally killed by 96 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,759 a shovel. They were buried in a valley. According to 97 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,560 Keys's letter to his brothers that was confiscated from his 98 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:12,600 jail cell, the couple were killed in an area with 99 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,079 pine needles on the ground. The woman was killed near 100 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:22,079 her car. Keys could hear cars below on the highway below, 101 00:07:22,319 --> 00:07:28,199 as in not in a valley. When considering these as 102 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,000 separate events or as a single event with misremembered or 103 00:07:32,079 --> 00:07:36,800 misstated details, we can come up with five couples who 104 00:07:36,839 --> 00:07:41,839 could match one or both sets of information, and it's 105 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,680 not far fetched to believe that Keys would have killed 106 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,519 multiple male female couples in this time period. We've already 107 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,240 gone over at nauseum the number of times Keyes talks 108 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:58,839 about stalking, fantasizing about, and looking for couples to kill. 109 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,399 So today we're going to discuss just two of those 110 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:08,279 potential couples because the second case it took us on 111 00:08:08,319 --> 00:08:13,160 an unexpected turn that not only connected to a separate 112 00:08:13,279 --> 00:08:18,000 Keys murder victim, but coincided with some other research we 113 00:08:18,079 --> 00:08:23,319 were doing and a never before heard story about Keys 114 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:40,399 from one of his friends. We can't discuss couples without 115 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,279 discussing Cami and Eugene, who have long been on my 116 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,279 radar as the or at least a male female couple 117 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,600 potentially abducted by Keys. And while we look at the 118 00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:56,799 possibility of there being other or different victims in terms 119 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,279 of making a case for missing or murdered couples, Came 120 00:09:00,399 --> 00:09:04,080 and Gene are still the most compelling to me. And 121 00:09:04,159 --> 00:09:07,600 while I have no major updates in their case. I 122 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,240 did notice another small detail that's worth mentioning, and it 123 00:09:12,279 --> 00:09:15,879 came to me in the strangest and perhaps most kismet way. 124 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:22,039 My partner is not huge into true crime other than 125 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,679 the occasional date line episode. He knows very little about 126 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,759 Israel Keys. In fact, he never made it past season one, 127 00:09:31,879 --> 00:09:35,720 episode four of this podcast. It was too much for him, 128 00:09:36,159 --> 00:09:40,480 too dark, too sad. And I say all this because 129 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,159 that's what made it so bizarre to come home over 130 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,279 the weekend to find him watching a dateline episode on 131 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,960 Brooke Wilburger from the Name Is forty five. He of 132 00:09:51,039 --> 00:09:54,960 course had no idea who Brooke Wilburger was and probably 133 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,200 doesn't know what the Name is forty five is, so 134 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:03,600 for him, it was just another episode of dateline. As 135 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:06,679 you may recall, Jane and Cammy were from a town 136 00:10:06,799 --> 00:10:10,720 not far from where Brooke Wilberger was abducted, and it 137 00:10:10,759 --> 00:10:14,240 was the same newspaper that covered all three of their disappearances, 138 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,759 first Camy and Jane and then several years later, Brooke. 139 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,159 And so we posited that Brooke most likely ended up 140 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,840 on Keys's computer when he was searching that newspaper for 141 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:33,200 updates on Cami and Gene. Well, as I stood there 142 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,039 watching Dateline over my partner's shoulder, something hit me like 143 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:45,799 a ton of bricks. Brook's mom is named Cammi. Brook's 144 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,240 case was more recent and received much more media coverage 145 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,679 because of the nature of both her disappearance and the 146 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,399 eventual uncovering of her murder, and the fact that local 147 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,960 law enforcement took her disappearance much more more seriously than 148 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,799 Cammi's and Jeans. So had Keys done a search in 149 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,759 twenty eleven for some version of Missing Oregon, Cammi Brooke 150 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,240 Wilburger's case would have come up immediately because Cammy Wilburger 151 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,360 was the family spokesperson in her daughter's media coverage, and 152 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,799 her name is in just about every single article about 153 00:11:23,799 --> 00:11:37,440 Brook's disappearance. No matter how long I've been doing this, 154 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:41,080 it never ceases to surprise me when we discover missing 155 00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:44,039 or murdered people who never made it onto NamUs or 156 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,360 the Charlie Project or any other database with unsolved homicides. 157 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,120 So it was all the more surprising when we discovered 158 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,080 the two thousand and two double homicide of Terry Palm 159 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,320 and Angela Walsh, A Spokane, Washington couple who disappeared the 160 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,679 morning after birthday party for Angela at the Boulevard Motel 161 00:12:02,879 --> 00:12:08,399 and Spokane. Terry and Angela had been together for seven 162 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,639 years when they were reported missing on December fifteenth of 163 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:14,679 two thousand and two, just five days after they were 164 00:12:14,759 --> 00:12:17,480 last seen after a night of partying with friends at 165 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:22,960 the Boulevard Motel. Terry was forty years old, five foot 166 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,159 eight and weighed one hundred forty five pounds. Angela was 167 00:12:26,159 --> 00:12:29,000 thirty four years old, five foot four and weighed just 168 00:12:29,039 --> 00:12:33,000 one hundred ten pounds. Angela was raised Mormon, but by 169 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:35,759 all accounts, was no longer practicing at the time of 170 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:38,320 her disappearance. She had a fourteen year old daughter from 171 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,399 a previous relationship. Like Angela, Terry was born and raised 172 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,279 in Spokane, and the couple were in the midst of 173 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,600 a rough patch. They had been hanging out with meth 174 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:53,519 users and were allegedly both using and selling meth, and 175 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,519 just two weeks before their deaths, the pair had moved 176 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,159 into Angela's mother's and stepdad's house because someone had had 177 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:04,320 reportedly broken into their apartment and tried to kill Angela, 178 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,600 and since that break in and until the night before 179 00:13:08,639 --> 00:13:12,440 they disappeared, they didn't give their new address to anyone. 180 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,080 No one knew where they were living or how to 181 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,240 find them. On the night of the party, Terry and 182 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,679 Angela had their friend April drive them to the Boulevard motel. 183 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:27,320 In fact, it was April who would be the last 184 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,799 known person to actually see the couple alive. She would 185 00:13:31,879 --> 00:13:34,399 later tell police that the morning after the party, she 186 00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:38,080 saw Terry and Angela walking north from the motel along 187 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,000 the Spokane River through People's Park, a hiking area on 188 00:13:42,039 --> 00:13:46,639 a large peninsula surrounded by Lattau Creek, Hangman Creek, and 189 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,279 the Spokane River. Directly north of People's Park is the 190 00:13:50,399 --> 00:13:54,639 Riverside Memorial Cemetery, and the park is connected by a 191 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,000 footbridge to the Centennial Trail Park to the east over 192 00:13:58,039 --> 00:14:02,879 the Spokane River, part of the Greater Riverside State Park, 193 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,840 a massive state park that runs from downtown Spokane to 194 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:14,480 the Spokane Reservation, almost twenty miles away. It's unclear where 195 00:14:14,519 --> 00:14:17,120 the couple were headed that morning, because they were living 196 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,559 just two miles directly east of the motel, just a 197 00:14:20,559 --> 00:14:25,759 couple blocks off of Sunset Boulevard at around the same 198 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,879 time that April saw Terry and Angela walking through the park. 199 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,559 Angela's mother received a phone call from Angela, reportedly at 200 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,840 seven forty a m. Stating that she needed her to 201 00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:39,440 drop her daughter off at school because she didn't have 202 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,519 a ride and wouldn't make it in time. And after 203 00:14:42,559 --> 00:14:45,559 that call, Angela and Terry were never heard from again. 204 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,639 For three months, local law enforcement and the community searched 205 00:14:51,639 --> 00:14:55,799 for the couple. Local media covered the cases frequently. Search 206 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,960 and rescue spent days searching the Spokane River near where 207 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,480 they were last seen and the surrounding areas with no luck. 208 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:08,159 Polygraphs were performed on the partygoers and both missing persons families. 209 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:13,960 There were no strong leads, and despite the previous attempt 210 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,159 on Angela's life, the most reported theory was that the 211 00:15:17,159 --> 00:15:21,200 couple fell into the river. Our foya for their cases 212 00:15:21,279 --> 00:15:23,919 was denied based on its still being an open and 213 00:15:24,039 --> 00:15:28,240 active investigation, so it's unclear what exactly the police were 214 00:15:28,279 --> 00:15:31,519 thinking behind closed doors, but we do know that all 215 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:35,080 of their families, as well as April, passed their polygraphs. 216 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:40,759 On March fifteenth of two thousand three, three months after 217 00:15:40,799 --> 00:15:44,559 the couple disappeared, a woman walking her dog through Riverside 218 00:15:44,559 --> 00:15:48,240 State Park, more than seven miles from where the couple 219 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,480 was last seen. Found Angela's body floating in the Spokane River, 220 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,759 about one mile south of seven Mile Bridge. Her death 221 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,480 was ruled a homicide, but Terry was nowhere to be found. 222 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,039 Police wondered had Terry killed his girlfriend and then disappeared. 223 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,759 But six months later, on September nine, kayakers found Terry's 224 00:16:12,799 --> 00:16:15,840 body in the Spokane River, just south of the nine 225 00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:19,639 Mile Dam and about five miles north from where Angela's 226 00:16:19,679 --> 00:16:24,200 body was found. Reports indicated that Terry's body had likely 227 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,399 been under water for the entire nine months that he 228 00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:32,799 was missing. At first, police believed it was possible that 229 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:37,120 Terry and Angela died by murder suicide, that Terry killed 230 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:42,000 Angela and then later himself. That is until Terry's death 231 00:16:42,159 --> 00:16:47,399 was also ruled a homicide. Autopsies would indicate that both 232 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,320 Angela and Terry died by violent homicide. Specifics have never 233 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,440 been made public, but violent homicide can refer to stabbing, beating, 234 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:04,559 or strangulation. Now, at first glance, it would seem most 235 00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:07,799 likely that whomever tried to kill Angela two weeks prior 236 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:10,720 to her Debt was likely the same person to eventually 237 00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:14,880 kill her aunt Terry. Unfortunately, we don't know who that 238 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,519 person was, let alone if Angela was even able to 239 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:22,480 identify them. But if rumors are to be believed, this 240 00:17:22,519 --> 00:17:27,799 attempted murder was in response to the couple selling bad meth. However, 241 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,480 police didn't seem to have tunnel vision. They looked into 242 00:17:31,559 --> 00:17:37,799 all angles and there are some pretty big Keys factors 243 00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:56,920 at play here, including one you don't even know about yet. 244 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,279 Terry Palm and Angela Walsh disapp appeared on December tenth 245 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,440 of two thousand and two, and at the time, Keyes 246 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,440 had just returned from a trip to Maine for his 247 00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:13,279 father's memorial service. Unfortunately, we don't have the exact dates 248 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,480 that Keys was in Maine. We only know that the 249 00:18:16,519 --> 00:18:20,000 service itself was on November twenty fifth, and that his 250 00:18:20,079 --> 00:18:24,160 father died on the thirteenth. We also know that Keys 251 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,240 took extended bereavement leave from work and traveled to eastern 252 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:33,880 Washington at some point during this time. Following John Jeffrey's 253 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,559 memorial service, we can't definitively place Keys anywhere until August 254 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,799 twenty eighth of two thousand and three, although we know 255 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,240 at this time he was working Monday through Friday for 256 00:18:44,279 --> 00:18:47,960 the Tribe, and only occasionally taking a long weekend off 257 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:55,759 to troll or commit crimes. Spokane is sixty eight miles 258 00:18:55,839 --> 00:18:59,599 or about a ninety minute drive equidistantly from both Calville 259 00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:03,200 and High Hunters. It's the closest major city and airport 260 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,400 to both towns. It's a city that keys knew well 261 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,440 had been to quite often, and allegedly even done construction 262 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:17,200 working when it comes to Angela and Terry. Interestingly, Angela's 263 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,240 body was found floating near the Wilbur trailhead of the 264 00:19:20,279 --> 00:19:24,160 Centennial Trail in Riverside State Park, not far from a 265 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,400 park toilet and boat ramp. And I'm told that while 266 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,880 both Angela and Terry were found downstream from where they 267 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,680 were last seen again seven and twelve miles downstream, respectively, 268 00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:40,920 the Spokane River moves at a glacial pace, particularly in winter, 269 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:45,839 when it barely moves at all. And more importantly, between 270 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,799 where they were last seen and where they were found 271 00:19:49,319 --> 00:19:53,119 is the Riverside State Park Bowl and Pitcher, a naturally 272 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,519 formed pool in the river located between two extremely shallow 273 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:03,240 rock banks inches deep a max for two bodies to 274 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:06,039 pass through this area, they would have to pass over 275 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,640 two rock beds separated by a bowl with a circular 276 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,160 flow pattern, and the area is incredibly trafficked because there's 277 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,799 a campground, suspension bridge, and overlook there. According to friend 278 00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:22,200 of the show Michael Beers, who was a former search 279 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,160 and rescuer, it would be nearly impossible for one of 280 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,720 them to pass through this bowl and Pitcher let alone both. 281 00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:34,319 So it's highly likely, if not certain, that Angela and 282 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,480 Terry went into the Spokane somewhere north of the Bowl 283 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:41,160 and Pitcher And that brings me to the very distinct 284 00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:49,720 differences in Angela's and Terry's recoveries. Angela's body was found 285 00:20:49,759 --> 00:20:52,960 three months after they went missing. She was floating in 286 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,039 the river. It's unclear whether she was clothed or not, 287 00:20:56,519 --> 00:21:00,759 but her state of decomposition, which was described as advanced, 288 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,160 made it clear she had likely not been submerged or 289 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,519 perhaps even in the river for the three months that 290 00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:11,480 she was missing. Her body had been exposed to the elements, 291 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,839 Whereas Terry was found nine months after they went missing, 292 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,720 and his decomposition indicated that he had been completely submerged 293 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,519 for the entirety of his disappearance, So that and the 294 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:29,519 significant distance between the two bodies suggests that they were 295 00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:36,920 either disposed in different areas and or in different ways. Additionally, 296 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,960 Terry's body was found just south of the Nine Mile Dam, 297 00:21:41,559 --> 00:21:45,519 a hydroelectric dam located in the northeast corner of Riverside 298 00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:50,519 State Park, and that is where someone named Nathan comes 299 00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:56,799 into play. Now, I'm going to give you a little 300 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:57,880 look behind. 301 00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 3: The scenes. 302 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,799 Speaker 1: Because I obtained what I consider to be very critical 303 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:06,720 information from some one who served in the Army with 304 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:10,079 Keys and considered himself one of Keys's closest friends at 305 00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:14,599 that time. In fact, when Keys told the FBI who 306 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,960 from the army to interview, he named Nathan third, only 307 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,279 after his squad leader and Matthew. Nathan and I have 308 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,839 exchanged e mails back and forth and have been trying 309 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,759 to make a zoom interview happen for weeks now. This 310 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,480 is something that happens a lot. People want to share 311 00:22:31,519 --> 00:22:34,160 and want to interview, but then back out or go 312 00:22:34,319 --> 00:22:39,000 quiet or reschedule because they realize how overwhelming dredging up 313 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,920 this specific past can be, or what it means to 314 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,160 become a spokesperson or forever part of this type of 315 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,160 narrative to be publicly linked to a serial killer and 316 00:22:50,279 --> 00:22:55,640 part of his story forever. Nathan and I both appear 317 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,920 on an upcoming podcast about Keys produced by a b 318 00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:03,240 C News, and after our interviews, they reached out to 319 00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:05,960 tell me that Nathan had some very interesting things to 320 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,000 say and that I should get in touch with him immediately, 321 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,119 and so I did. Because some of the information Nathan 322 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,160 has shared is pertinent to this case and even more 323 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,039 so to another. I'm going to share that with you 324 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,559 now while still remaining hopeful that we can get on 325 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,519 zoom at some point soon. But before we get to Nathan, 326 00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:35,000 we have to discuss a woman he's never even met, Tammy. 327 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 4: So in one instance where you killed somebody, it appeared 328 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:46,720 in these news as if it were an accident. So 329 00:23:46,799 --> 00:23:50,680 that's got to be kind of well in power. Well, right. 330 00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 5: I never took that for granted, though, because I knew. 331 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,079 I've known for a long time, because of the things 332 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:58,880 that I've done that have been in the news. 333 00:23:59,839 --> 00:24:00,759 Speaker 4: I've known that. 334 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 5: Like what you read that happened, and what I know 335 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:09,119 that actually happened, sometimes it's almost not even recognizable really, 336 00:24:10,599 --> 00:24:14,279 So I I never took it for granted, I always 337 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,519 assumed that if a body was found that they were 338 00:24:17,799 --> 00:24:20,960 somebody was gonna be after me for it. I was 339 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,640 always prepared for that, and I always had I always 340 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,519 thought I had alibis and stuff like that was always in. 341 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:29,319 Speaker 4: The back of my mind. 342 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,519 Speaker 5: Kind of hard to keep track of after a while. 343 00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:35,799 Speaker 4: You know, but you anticipate if they found a body, 344 00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:37,079 here's what my story's gonna do. 345 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 5: Right. 346 00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 4: Were there any close calls where they found a body 347 00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:44,880 that you were prepared, kind of prepared for them. 348 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 5: Well, like I say, I don't know if it was 349 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,440 a close call, I don't know. I don't I know 350 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:55,960 that I know that what was made public, it never 351 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,279 seemed like it was close to me. 352 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 4: Mm a body recovered and you were worried they were 353 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:11,880 gonna come in to ask questions about it. Yeah? Was 354 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:12,799 that only one time? 355 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:22,759 Speaker 5: Yeah? 356 00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:25,759 Speaker 4: Did you consider that a mistake on your party somehow 357 00:25:25,839 --> 00:25:27,079 that the body was recovered? 358 00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 5: Well, I don't back then, Yeah, yeah, it was a mistake. 359 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 4: What happened where you rushed? 360 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,759 Speaker 5: Did you not do something the way you lanned? 361 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 6: No, I was. 362 00:25:55,799 --> 00:26:03,599 Speaker 5: It was kind of the same situation as. 363 00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 4: As the couriers. 364 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:07,559 Speaker 5: I just wasn't in a position to get rid of 365 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:12,480 it right away, and uh, so I decided to try 366 00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:16,839 and make it look I mean, it was already gonna 367 00:26:16,839 --> 00:26:20,519 be assumed that it was an accident and uh of 368 00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:25,039 some sort. And uh, my concern was that the body 369 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:30,839 would be found before it had decomposed enough. 370 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:48,039 Speaker 4: But how long ago was that? 371 00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 5: That was a while ago. 372 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,559 Speaker 4: But the body so wait, I don't get I don't 373 00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:53,440 get that your concern with the body wouldn't have been 374 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,680 decomposed enough. That makes it sound like you went back or. 375 00:26:59,160 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: No. 376 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 5: I'm just saying if it had been found right away, 377 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,480 it probably wouldn't have been thought to be an accident. 378 00:27:05,079 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: Anymore, as I'm sure you'll recall. In a January ninth, 379 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:19,799 twenty thirteen interview, Tammy told the FBI that shortly after 380 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:23,680 she and Keys began dating, her neighbor's husband went missing 381 00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:29,039 while on a hike. That man's remains were later found 382 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,119 and his death was eventually ruled accidental, but Tammy told 383 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,279 the FBI that Israel was gone in the entire day 384 00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:42,440 and night that this neighbor's husband went missing, something Tammy 385 00:27:42,519 --> 00:27:48,200 later thought was unusual. Now we don't know the man's 386 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,039 identity as it's redacted in the FBI files, and we 387 00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:54,799 don't think nor have any reason to believe that this 388 00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:00,480 man was or could be, Terry Palm. But we think 389 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:04,519 this man could be the death ruled accidental that Keys 390 00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:10,519 discussed with the FBI, and that is where Nathan and 391 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:30,920 Terry Palm come in. Nathan and Keyes were stationed together 392 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,920 at Fort Lewis and in Egypt, and Nathan's interview with 393 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,319 the FBI is one of the more robust interviews, which 394 00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:41,640 we'll dig deeper into in a future episode. But one 395 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,480 thing that didn't come up in that FBI interview but 396 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,759 did come up in his interview with ABC was a 397 00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:51,079 conversation that he had with Keys shortly after Keys and 398 00:28:51,119 --> 00:28:55,400 Tammy started dating. Nathan said that in late two thousand 399 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,200 or early two thousand and one, Keyes told him an 400 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,400 acquaintance of Tammis went missing, that Keys and Tammy had 401 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,759 participated in several searches for this missing man, and that 402 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:12,960 Keyes talked about his disappearance quite often, and at one 403 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,480 point Keyes told Nathan that he suspected that this missing 404 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:25,319 man's remains would be found in a hydro electric dam 405 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,119 because it's a place where a body could be submerged 406 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,519 for a prolonged period of time. Nathan went on to 407 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:36,880 say that he recalled that this man was eventually found 408 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:42,799 near a hydro electric dam and that is death was 409 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:50,160 ruled accidental. We believe we are very close to identifying 410 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,519 this man, and while we don't think he is connected 411 00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:58,759 to Terry Palm, Keysa's suspicion surrounding his death certainly does. 412 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,400 Harry Palm was found very near a hydro electric dam 413 00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:06,720 and had been submerged in the Spokane River for close 414 00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:10,599 to nine months, and this was only about two years 415 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,599 after Tammy's neighbor went missing. So at first we thought 416 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,599 this was a potential link between Keys and Terry Palm 417 00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:22,920 and Angela Walsh, but also a great lead in uncovering 418 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,359 Tammy's neighbor. But then we zoomed out a little and 419 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:34,359 started looking into hydro electric dams and we discovered a 420 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:40,519 lot for one. Hydro electric dams have quietly been with 421 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,200 us throughout this entire investigation. There's one on the Racket 422 00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:48,680 River in Tupper Lake. There's one in the Racket River 423 00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:53,000 on Blake Falls Reservoir. There's one on the Lower Netchez 424 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:57,559 where Mark Oldberry was camping there's one on Ecclutna Lake 425 00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:02,039 where Keys talked about trolling for victim. There's one on 426 00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:07,200 Lake Pandora and Coutiney. There's one on Flaming Gorge Reservoir 427 00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:10,960 near Green River, and the list, believe it or not, 428 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,799 just goes on and on, and then we started looking 429 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:18,559 into why this would be a good place to dispose 430 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:23,319 of a body. According to pacificcore dot COM's resources on 431 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,319 hydroelectric dams and safety areas above the dam flow can 432 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,480 pull swimmers in and drag them below the water with 433 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,000 such force that they cannot escape. Air trapped in those 434 00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:39,960 areas reduces buoyancy to a point where even swimmers wearing 435 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,240 flotation devices can be sucked below the surface due to 436 00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:50,240 intense pressure. It's incredibly dangerous to swim below the surface 437 00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:54,000 above the dam flow, meaning it would be dangerous to 438 00:31:54,079 --> 00:31:58,240 search this area for a body below the dam. Water 439 00:31:58,359 --> 00:32:03,400 plunging over the spillway creates a violent recirculating current the 440 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:09,640 trap's objects and people below the surface, making escape nearly impossible. 441 00:32:11,759 --> 00:32:15,319 So if you were Israel Keys and not in a 442 00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:18,160 shed in your own driveway with all the tools you'd 443 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:23,400 need to submerge a body in water. A hydroelectric dam 444 00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:28,160 would be an easy option for you. And like Keys 445 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,160 told Nathan, it's a place where a body could be 446 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,319 submerged for a very long time. 447 00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 3: The wind has done a fish posts. 448 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 6: The city's the seas the cause of drown Honeynee. 449 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 3: The children are swimming from the top of the trees. 450 00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:13,279 Speaker 6: Crowds of umbrellas are standing masputly. 451 00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 3: Americas sewing, holding on to her TV even if the 452 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:36,920 water is rising past and knees. He comes the river. 453 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 6: The common a strong, but you can't keep bad above 454 00:33:46,319 --> 00:33:47,880 there's trouble waters. 455 00:33:52,799 --> 00:34:02,319 Speaker 3: He comes the river over the flames. Sometimes he got 456 00:34:02,319 --> 00:34:05,279 a bird a sum well. 457 00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:10,679 Speaker 1: This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Holmark, 458 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:15,599 with additional research by Kathleen s and Jordan Taylor. Sources 459 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,920 include NamUs, the Charlie Project, pacificcore dot com, low Impact, 460 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,159 hydro dot Org, damn Safety dot Org, the Washington State 461 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,400 Digital Archives, and The Spokesman Review. This episode was made 462 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,039 possible by the following Patreon producers, Amy Basel, Kendall, c 463 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:37,119 Heather Horton, Whedon, Sherry d Kristin Hoffman, Dale Axton, Stephanie Taylor, 464 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:41,199 Lydio Rodarte, Quail Drew Ipond, Amelia Hancock, Christina Sisson, Nicole 465 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:45,400 and Dennis Henry, Gillian Natale, Lana Holiday, Rural Juror, Tuesday Woodworth, 466 00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:49,639 Zach Ignottowitz, Warren, Kathleen s and n at L Casey, Jensen, Richardson, 467 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,800 sc Benjamin Choppafong, Trista, Nicole, Ashfish, Becky c. Pink genj 468 00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:58,840 Corey d, Robin Carroll, Jordan m Kate Lusier, John Comery, 469 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,960 Kathy Nation, Carried, Jordan t Bethany, Lauren Ferry, Emily Payne, 470 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,079 Tory Meyers, Sabrina Abbott, Meghan Edmund, Meghan Dagel, Ashley Cooplan, 471 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:10,599 Michael Randall, d Wayne c Jen, Justin Runyon and Trixie. 472 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,719 Thank you to two Crime, Bullshit's newest Patreon supporter, Lindsey 473 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,480 w To support the investigation, go to Patreon dot com, 474 00:35:18,559 --> 00:35:25,800 slash Studio Both And. This episode included music by Sarah Wife, Sarage, Terramisanov, 475 00:35:26,159 --> 00:35:31,719 William Hellfire and Radical Face with featured music by Patrick Watson. 476 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 6: Nobody told you. 477 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:55,559 Speaker 3: Who is gonna be this home? Something's been Bill last 478 00:35:55,679 --> 00:36:05,159 Jehol losing, I'm sure there ain't any words in this 479 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:06,320 world and that's. 480 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:08,039 Speaker 1: Gonna cut, that's Baker. 481 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 6: Sun, It's gonna fuck down on your shoulder. Joke, gonna 482 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:30,440 start the wrong Hi cos Burger. 483 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 3: Coming Upstrop. You can't keep you in the barn. Chuck 484 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:40,119 a w. 485 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 6: Hick goes SMI. 486 00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 3: Both the fas. Sometimes you got. 487 00:36:54,880 --> 00:37:00,199 Speaker 1: Back, keep start away, m. 488 00:37:02,559 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 3: Sal times 489 00:37:08,639 --> 00:37:10,159 Speaker 6: Because of churns