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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast. I know what

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<v Speaker 1>I saw? How many times have you heard that before?

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<v Speaker 1>In this special edition of Monster Talk, we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>take a look at the tools we used to recall

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<v Speaker 1>everything from encounters with ghosts, monsters, or aliens recalling what

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<v Speaker 1>you had for breakfast three days ago. We all use

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<v Speaker 1>the same tools, perception and memory, but we're all being

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<v Speaker 1>constantly told that our perception and memory are fantastic. Yet

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<v Speaker 1>it simply isn't.

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<v Speaker 2>So.

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<v Speaker 1>None of us are video recorders and none of us

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<v Speaker 1>are unbiased reporters. What follows is a compilation of interviews

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<v Speaker 1>with memory researcher Elizabeth Loftus and perception researcher Richard Wiseman.

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<v Speaker 1>Listen and you'll learn how perilous and frail are the

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<v Speaker 1>tools and materials that we use to build our fortresses

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<v Speaker 1>of certitude. This is a Monster Talk special Seeing is

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<v Speaker 1>believing monsterutal.

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<v Speaker 3>When I think about some of the things that people

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<v Speaker 3>believe that I know aren't really true based on the

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<v Speaker 3>science and the scientific literature that is the body of

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<v Speaker 3>the field of memory. I know that many people believe

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<v Speaker 3>that memory works like a videotape recorder, and you record

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<v Speaker 3>it and play it back. That's not true. Many people

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<v Speaker 3>think that the cross racial identification situation, where you have

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<v Speaker 3>a stranger of one race trying to identify a person

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<v Speaker 3>of another race whom they've only seen briefly, we know

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<v Speaker 3>from the science people make more mistakes, but not everybody

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<v Speaker 3>who's judging eyewitness testimony understands that, and that may be

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<v Speaker 3>one of the reasons why we have so many mistaken

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<v Speaker 3>identifications that are cross racial. Many people believe that if

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<v Speaker 3>somebody says I'm absolutely sure, that they're almost certainly right,

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<v Speaker 3>but in fact, confidence is not a particularly great predictor

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<v Speaker 3>of accurate. So those are just a few examples.

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<v Speaker 4>I guess when it comes to perception, this myth, which

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<v Speaker 4>I'm in certain where it's grown up, this myth that

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<v Speaker 4>our heads like film cameras or video cameras and we're

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<v Speaker 4>perceiving pretty much all of the world all of the time,

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<v Speaker 4>and then we're somehow storing that in our heads. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>it's just complete madness. It would just require the brain

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<v Speaker 4>the size.

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<v Speaker 2>Of a planet in order to be able to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>It just doesn't make any sense at all.

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<v Speaker 4>And so if visual illusions tell us anything, is that

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<v Speaker 4>we cut corners all of the time, which is a

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<v Speaker 4>perfectly sensible thing to do. We make assumptions about what's

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<v Speaker 4>important in the world, and we focus our attention on

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<v Speaker 4>those events and don't look at the surroundings. When it

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<v Speaker 4>comes to memory, we remember what we think was important

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<v Speaker 4>and we let the uninformation drop away very rapidly.

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<v Speaker 2>And most of the time those mechanisms serve us very well. Indeed,

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<v Speaker 2>they allow us to be as brilliant as we actually are.

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<v Speaker 4>Some of the time, under very special circumstances and obsic

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<v Speaker 4>illusions one of us ccumstances, and magic tructure another, we

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<v Speaker 4>get it very badly wrong. So what those things show

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<v Speaker 4>us is that our brain is not like a video recorder.

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<v Speaker 4>In fact, we're taking shortcuts all the time.

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<v Speaker 3>So many people believe that many memory, especially memory for

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<v Speaker 3>a traumatic event, works like a videotape recorder, that you

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<v Speaker 3>see this horrific event and it's imprinted in the mind,

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<v Speaker 3>and you'll hear people say things like, you know, I

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<v Speaker 3>was so scared, I'll never forget that phase as long

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<v Speaker 3>as I live. But in fact, memory for these frightening

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<v Speaker 3>experiences can often be impaired inaccurate, especially especially in a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of the little details.

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<v Speaker 4>I think all sorts of experiments demonstrate a fallibility of vision.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, basically, any opt collusion does that. More recently,

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<v Speaker 4>you've seen experiments into what's called change blindness, which is

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<v Speaker 4>where you show people some kind of fairly complex scene

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<v Speaker 4>and they watch it, and what they don't realize is that,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, the clothing that people are wearing in that

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<v Speaker 4>scenees changing, maybe the actors to be changing, and people

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<v Speaker 4>simply aren't noticing those sorts of things. And so a

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<v Speaker 4>while ago I made the color change in cart Trick,

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<v Speaker 4>when ninety five percent of the visual feeld changes throughout

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<v Speaker 4>the film strip, and now people just don't notice that.

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<v Speaker 4>So those sorts of studies, which have only really been

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<v Speaker 4>happening in the last maybe five ten years or so,

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<v Speaker 4>are really starting to show us just how much of

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<v Speaker 4>our world is acts constructed by our brains rather than

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<v Speaker 4>us kind of looking very actively at what's going on

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<v Speaker 4>around us.

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<v Speaker 3>When witnesses testify in a courtroom before a jury or

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<v Speaker 3>a judge, they can be very influential. Eyewitness testimony, as

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<v Speaker 3>a matter of fact, is the major cause of wrongful conviction.

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<v Speaker 3>To what happens is eyewitnesses are testifying, people are believing

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<v Speaker 3>them because they're sincere and they believe in what they're saying.

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<v Speaker 3>But even when they're completely inaccurate, and somebody innocent is

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<v Speaker 3>being accused of a crime and ultimately convicted. It's because

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<v Speaker 3>eyewitness testimony is so persuasive, especially when it's delivered with

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of confidence and a lot of detail and

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<v Speaker 3>even emotion.

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<v Speaker 2>Beliefs affect our vision and our memory massively.

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<v Speaker 4>So really, what we're doing is focusing on what we

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<v Speaker 4>believe to be important, and that's a very.

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<v Speaker 2>Sensible way forward.

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<v Speaker 4>The problem is that some of the times what we

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<v Speaker 4>think is important is actually not particularly important. So if

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<v Speaker 4>you take a magic tricks, for example, the narrative of

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<v Speaker 4>the trick will tell you what seems to be important

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<v Speaker 4>any one particular time. So if the card is selected

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<v Speaker 4>and the magician says, you know, look at your card

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<v Speaker 4>that the important point then is what's on the face

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<v Speaker 4>of that card, and you look at that moment, that

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<v Speaker 4>allows the magician to do certain secret things because you're

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<v Speaker 4>focusing your attention elsewhere because the narrative are told that's

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<v Speaker 4>an important piece of information.

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<v Speaker 2>You're not looking at his or her hands, and that

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<v Speaker 2>allows them to get away from sleight of hand.

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<v Speaker 4>If you believe in the paranormal and that somebody's doing

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<v Speaker 4>some kind of psychic demonstration such as oh, I don't

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<v Speaker 4>know bending metal, for example, you might not look very

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<v Speaker 4>hard until something surprising seems to happen. When the psyche says, okay,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm concentrating now, suddenly you focus your attention. You see

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<v Speaker 4>the key bending. Well, actually, your belief in the paranormal

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<v Speaker 4>there is tripping you up. What you need to do

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<v Speaker 4>and not a big good observer is to be looking

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<v Speaker 4>very closely before that moment, for your belief tells you

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<v Speaker 4>there's nothing going on, it's not important.

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<v Speaker 2>So I believe their bias is trippers up all the time.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, people often ask me how reliable is eyewitness testimony,

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<v Speaker 3>And the real answer is it completely depends on the conditions.

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<v Speaker 3>So obviously, if you have very good lighting and you

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<v Speaker 3>see something clearly and you're tested, your memory is tested.

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<v Speaker 3>After a very short period of time, we can often

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<v Speaker 3>trust our memories. But the problem comes in when the

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<v Speaker 3>factors are weighing against accurate testimonies. So it's dark you

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<v Speaker 3>didn't get a very good look in the first place.

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<v Speaker 3>A long period of time passes, you're trying to answer

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<v Speaker 3>questions about something that's really now pretty vague in your memory.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe you're trying to identify somebody that you saw. Maybe

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<v Speaker 3>it's a crime situation and you're trying to identify the

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<v Speaker 3>perpetrator of the crime. Maybe you've got a cross racial

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<v Speaker 3>identification situation going where a member of one race is

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<v Speaker 3>trying to identify a stranger of a different race. These

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<v Speaker 3>are all factors that cause eyewitness testimony to become inaccurate.

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<v Speaker 4>When it comes to human memories, it's very similar to observation.

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<v Speaker 4>What we're doing is not really just pressing rewind and play,

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<v Speaker 4>but rather we're reconstructing the past. So there's been lots

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<v Speaker 4>of studies showing that the way in which you frame

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<v Speaker 4>a particular piece of action can very heavily swear your

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<v Speaker 4>memory of it. So, for example, you can show people

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<v Speaker 4>a film of somebody looking around a house, and then

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<v Speaker 4>you say to people, Okay, that film was taken by

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<v Speaker 4>a burglar, someone who's going to come back and steal

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<v Speaker 4>things from the house. Can you tell us what you

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<v Speaker 4>saw and people will recall where the television set was,

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<v Speaker 4>and you know, the security system on the door and

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<v Speaker 4>all of that. They can take another group of people,

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<v Speaker 4>show them the same film and say, this is made

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<v Speaker 4>by some house buyers looking around.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you tell us what you saw?

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<v Speaker 4>And they'll remember, you know, the size of the rooms,

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<v Speaker 4>and the deckre and so on, so both of them

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<v Speaker 4>seeing exactly the same thing. But then the way in

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<v Speaker 4>which you frame it after the event has happened biases

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<v Speaker 4>their perception and recall that tape so very very important

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<v Speaker 4>ways which memory can be swayed.

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<v Speaker 3>One other things that I've noticed in my research observations

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<v Speaker 3>in actual court cases is that we do rely on

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<v Speaker 3>eyewitness testimony a lot. We listen to somebody give an

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<v Speaker 3>account about the past, and especially if it given in

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<v Speaker 3>a very confident manner, and especially if the person is

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<v Speaker 3>showing some emotion as they tell the story, we tend

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<v Speaker 3>to believe it. It sounds believable, and we tend to

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<v Speaker 3>believe it because we are not thinking of the scientific

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<v Speaker 3>fact that even memories that are fault can be delivered

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<v Speaker 3>with a great deal of confidence and detail and emotion.

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<v Speaker 4>Whenever we are in a situation where something anomalous, something weird,

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<v Speaker 4>something we're not really used to observing actually happens, you

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<v Speaker 4>have to remember that all sorts of factors come into play.

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<v Speaker 2>One is normally stress, two is a surprise.

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<v Speaker 4>Three is you don't know quite how to frame what

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<v Speaker 4>you've just seen, and all of those things will disrupt

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<v Speaker 4>your observation. And so you know, if you go along

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<v Speaker 4>and you get to a seance and objects move, and

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<v Speaker 4>you're in darkness and it's an emotionally charged atmosphere, then

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<v Speaker 4>you're probably not going to be able to remember what

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<v Speaker 4>actually happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly. The same is true of skeptics.

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<v Speaker 4>Might go along to a genuine salance if such a

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<v Speaker 4>thing actually happened and source some genuine phenomena. Again, their

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<v Speaker 4>memory of that may not be very good. They may

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<v Speaker 4>remember trickery that didn't actually take place. So it is

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<v Speaker 4>a double edged sword. There's certainly under circumstances where we're

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<v Speaker 4>not used to observing that there's no reason to think

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<v Speaker 4>would be particularly accurate. Stress and distraction player a big

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<v Speaker 4>role in observation when we become stressed. Attentional spotlight focuses

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<v Speaker 4>right in because you know, you really do want to

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<v Speaker 4>focus your attention on what's going on inside of the

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<v Speaker 4>bushes if you hear a rustling there, because that's where

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<v Speaker 4>the tiger is, or possibly where the tiger is, and

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<v Speaker 4>that's where you really want to focus your attention and

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<v Speaker 4>sort out what's going on.

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<v Speaker 2>So when we become anxious, when we become.

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<v Speaker 4>Stressed, that in spotlights, that becomes very narrow and we

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<v Speaker 4>don't see what's going on around us. With distraction, it's

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<v Speaker 4>slightly different. That tends to be a bottom up, as

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<v Speaker 4>psychologists would refer to it process, and there are certain

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<v Speaker 4>things built into our visual system that says, look, if

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<v Speaker 4>something suddenly flashes or makes a loud noise, or suddenly moves,

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<v Speaker 4>then focus all your attention there because that thing is

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<v Speaker 4>the most thing, that's most important. And so you become distracted,

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<v Speaker 4>and again you don't see what's going on elsewhere. So

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<v Speaker 4>the illusion created by our eyes and brain is that

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<v Speaker 4>we're pretty good observers. We're constantly looking around and and

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<v Speaker 4>so on. The reality is we're focusing our attention in

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<v Speaker 4>a very small place, and so because of that, we

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<v Speaker 4>can miss big things that are happening right around us.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it is a good idea that we try

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<v Speaker 3>to educate the public wherever we can to have accurate

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<v Speaker 3>notions about how memory works. So when they're deciding cases

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<v Speaker 3>or when they're say law enforcement investigating cases, they too

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<v Speaker 3>have a kind of healthy skepticism about human memory. And

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<v Speaker 3>that's what I and other psychological scientists have been trying

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<v Speaker 3>to do to provide that education, either through our writings

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<v Speaker 3>or speaking to media, or speaking out when when a

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<v Speaker 3>particular newsworthy court cases is in the news, or testifying

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<v Speaker 3>as expert witnesses during trials. We are trying to educate

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<v Speaker 3>people about the science of memory.

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<v Speaker 4>As biases beliefs affect our vision and our memory massively.

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<v Speaker 4>So really what we're doing is focusing on what we

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<v Speaker 4>believe to be important, and that's a very sensible way forward.

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<v Speaker 4>The problem is that some of the times what we

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<v Speaker 4>think is important is actually not particularly important.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you take a.

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<v Speaker 4>Magic tricks, for example, the narrative of the trick will

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<v Speaker 4>tell you what seems to be important any one particular time,

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<v Speaker 4>so they can't is selected, and the magician says, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, look at your card.

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<v Speaker 4>That the important point then is what's on the face

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<v Speaker 4>of that card, and you look at that moment that

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<v Speaker 4>allows the magician to do certain secret things because you're

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<v Speaker 4>focusing your attention elsewhere because the narrative have told you

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<v Speaker 4>that's an important piece of information. You're not looking at

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<v Speaker 4>his or her hands, and that allows them to get

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<v Speaker 4>away from sleights of hand. So those sorts of beliefs

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<v Speaker 4>are very important in terms of wider beliefs. If you

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<v Speaker 4>believe in the paranormal and that somebody's doing some kind

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<v Speaker 4>of psychic demonstration such as I don't know bending metal,

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<v Speaker 4>for example, you might not look very hard until something surprising.

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<v Speaker 2>Seems to happen.

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<v Speaker 4>When the psyche says, okay, I'm concentrating now, suddenly.

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<v Speaker 2>You focus your attention. You see the key bending.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, actually, your belief in the paranormal there is tripping

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<v Speaker 4>you up. What you need to do and not a

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<v Speaker 4>biggerd observer is to be looking very closely.

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<v Speaker 2>Before that moment.

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<v Speaker 4>But your belief tells you there's nothing going on, it's

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<v Speaker 4>not important.

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<v Speaker 2>So our beliefs their bias. This trippers up all the time.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been studying eyewitness testimony now for more than a

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<v Speaker 3>quarter of a century, and as a scientist who has

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<v Speaker 3>seen just how wrong eyewitnesses can be, both in my

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<v Speaker 3>studies and also in some of the actual court cases

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<v Speaker 3>that I work on, I'm I'm more skeptical when I

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<v Speaker 3>when I hear somebody talk about the past, I'm I'm

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<v Speaker 3>somebody who who often says, you know, I wonder if that.

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<v Speaker 3>I wonder if that's really accurate. I wonder what's going

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<v Speaker 3>on here. I wonder if there's another reason why this

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<v Speaker 3>person is saying what they're saying, other than the events

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<v Speaker 3>really unfolded that way. So I guess that I do

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<v Speaker 3>have a kind of healthy skepticism about human.

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<v Speaker 2>Memory in terms of perception and memory.

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<v Speaker 4>What you have to remember is that when you a

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<v Speaker 4>trip took on one of these obstacles to do usions

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<v Speaker 4>or in sensual blindness or change blindness or whatever, it's

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<v Speaker 4>a very very special set of circumstances that's been constructed

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<v Speaker 4>to trip you up.

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<v Speaker 2>Ninety Nine percent of the time, you're brilliant. You're brilliant observing.

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<v Speaker 4>What's right in front of you, and actually you're pretty

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<v Speaker 4>good at remembering what happened as well. But once in

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<v Speaker 4>a while, and particularly the case when you're up against

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<v Speaker 4>a fake psyche or a magician, someone there who is

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<v Speaker 4>really there to trip you up, all of those biases,

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<v Speaker 4>instead of working in your favor, work against you. So

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<v Speaker 4>most of the time people shouldn't be concerned about this stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, they get through life fairly. Yeah, well it's

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<v Speaker 4>only once in a while they'll get tripped up, and

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<v Speaker 4>you shouldn't sort of overgeneralize those examples to everyday life.

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<v Speaker 1>Mobstert This has been a Monster Talk special episode, Seeing

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<v Speaker 1>is Believing. You heard interviews with doctors Elizabeth Loftus and

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<v Speaker 1>Richard Wiseman. Check out the show notes at munster talk

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<v Speaker 1>dot org from more information at least to their work.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming soon, We're going to have our very first some

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<v Speaker 1>Monster Talk live Google hangout. I've got some amazing guests

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<v Speaker 1>lined up for that. Follow me on Twitter at doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Atlantis or on Facebook in the monster Talk group to

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<v Speaker 1>get more information and the time for that event. The

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<v Speaker 1>results should be available as a future episode of monster

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<v Speaker 1>Talk if the recording works properly. Monster Talk is an

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<v Speaker 1>official podcast of Skeptic Magazine. The opinion is expressed on

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<v Speaker 1>this show, or those are the guests and the host

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<v Speaker 1>do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Skeptic Magazine or

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<v Speaker 1>the Skeptic Society. Monster Talk theme music is by Peachtealing Monkeys.

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<v Speaker 1>Additional music in this episode by Joy Fahrenbachiu's by permission.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening.

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<v Speaker 5>Did you know that you can now subscribe to Skeptic

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<v Speaker 5>your favorite Skeptic content