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<v Speaker 1>Hi everyone. As you might know, we don't get any

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<v Speaker 1>or political parties. Our work is funded by you, our

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<v Speaker 1>podcast series, Fireside Chats and Radical Reads. So here's a

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<v Speaker 1>little preview of our latest Patreon only episode. You can

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<v Speaker 1>join us, help support our work, and listen to the

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<v Speaker 1>full episode today at patreon dot com slash working class

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<v Speaker 1>history link in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 2>As we come margin Martin and the Beauty of the

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<v Speaker 2>Day a million dark in kegeens one thousand mil last

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<v Speaker 2>grade are bridden by the Beauty is Sun Sun Disclosers

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<v Speaker 2>and the Ableses Roses.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, Hi everyone, I'm here with Michael Richmond, author

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<v Speaker 1>of the book Fractured, and we're here to discuss David

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<v Speaker 1>Badile's Jews Don't Count. And yeah, I don't know if Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>if you wanted to introduce yourself at all, anything beyond

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<v Speaker 1>beyond that, I.

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<v Speaker 3>Guess it's probably useful to say that we're both Jewish,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's partly why we're interested in this book. And

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<v Speaker 3>I've kind of done some writing around sort of anti

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<v Speaker 3>Semitism and philo Semitism in recent years. And yeah, I

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<v Speaker 3>think we were both just kind of sufficiently, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>we recognized that the book came out a few years

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<v Speaker 3>ago now, but we're kind of sufficiently annoyed by it

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<v Speaker 3>that we we've finally managed to get together to talk

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<v Speaker 3>about it.

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<v Speaker 1>It is quite an annoying book.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, he just annoyingness as a man just jumps

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<v Speaker 3>off the page.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I did say in the lead up to this

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<v Speaker 1>that I wanted to try and be even handed, but

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<v Speaker 1>we've jumped straight into just how annoying he is. But

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<v Speaker 1>before we get onto how annoying is, can we maybe

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you want to say something maybe

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<v Speaker 1>anything that you think about the book that might be positive,

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<v Speaker 1>or anything good that you can say about the book.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's tough because I think, like I think what's

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<v Speaker 3>most damaging about the book is that it's kind of

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<v Speaker 3>become this this kind of go to book for a

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<v Speaker 3>particular kind of reaction to like recent debates around phanti

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<v Speaker 3>Semitism and Jewishness. And in that sense, I think probably

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<v Speaker 3>quite a lot of people have read it and thought, right,

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<v Speaker 3>this is the right opinion to have, And in that

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<v Speaker 3>sense it's really damaging because a lot of the people

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<v Speaker 3>that have read it aren't people who have engaged in

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<v Speaker 3>any way in any of these debates and are just thinking,

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<v Speaker 3>all right, here, this is a kind of stupid man's

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<v Speaker 3>intellectual who kind of comes out with this kind of

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<v Speaker 3>take that's quite high profile, and people can just kind

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<v Speaker 3>of swallow it whole and kind of take it on

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<v Speaker 3>as their kind of answer to what's been what's been

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<v Speaker 3>happening with recent debates. And so, you know, having said that,

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<v Speaker 3>like if you actually read it, you know, from our

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<v Speaker 3>point of view, in terms of like knowing a bit

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<v Speaker 3>more like having lived some of these kind of debates

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<v Speaker 3>in these kind of really kind of annoying, trying kind

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<v Speaker 3>of times, we might be able to experience some of

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<v Speaker 3>the book as being like, okay, yeah, like anti Semitism

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<v Speaker 3>is a problem, and like Jewish culture and Jewish history

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<v Speaker 3>aren't that well known in Britain. You know, there's those

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<v Speaker 3>kind of small aspects of the points that he's making

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<v Speaker 3>are valid, and therefore it just seems like even more

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<v Speaker 3>of a kind of missed opportunit. You need to like

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<v Speaker 3>speak about them in a more like historicized and kind

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<v Speaker 3>of contextualized way rather than this kind of like really

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<v Speaker 3>quite reactionary kind of polemic that he that he kind

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<v Speaker 3>of used it for. I don't know how even handed

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<v Speaker 3>that was. I know that I'm supposed to be even handed.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just what I did want to say that was

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<v Speaker 1>so from that was the good bit that you can

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<v Speaker 1>say about about the book. And from here it's all downhill.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a really damaging book. That's the positive. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the positive statement.

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<v Speaker 3>About what do you think do you think my being

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<v Speaker 3>unre well.

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<v Speaker 1>No, you're I mean, I think you're right basically. But

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<v Speaker 1>the topic, the topic that he's he's brought up is

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<v Speaker 1>a really interesting one. You know, the issue of, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's an issue of jewishness in its relationship to whiteness,

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<v Speaker 1>the issue of you know, anti semitism and its relationship

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<v Speaker 1>to to other forms of racism. You know, these are

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<v Speaker 1>kind of interesting topics for discussion.

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<v Speaker 3>They are really importanttant question, but.

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<v Speaker 1>He does he does approach them in perhaps the stupidest

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<v Speaker 1>way imaginable. I was I was talking to someone about

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<v Speaker 1>it yesterday and uh, and we were saying, like it's

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<v Speaker 1>the equivalent of someone, you know, someone who wants to write,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, about what the weather's been like this week

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<v Speaker 1>and what the weather's going to be like next week

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<v Speaker 1>and just looking out their window and that being the

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<v Speaker 1>extent of what they talk about, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just so kind of like so, oh right, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's it. That's so what I can immediately see here.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that. I don't think I need to go any

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<v Speaker 1>deeper into that. So basically the short version is that

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<v Speaker 1>there's there's not much good about this book. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I think, you know, the style of it, it's this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of like this long form s say essentially, which

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<v Speaker 1>I think, what is it?

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<v Speaker 3>What is it? It's not it's not clear what it is.

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<v Speaker 3>It's almost like a kind of like what's it called?

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<v Speaker 3>In in like shape, it's like a soliloquy. It's like

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<v Speaker 3>a just like there's one long soliloquy. But it's like

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<v Speaker 3>the kind of feeling of it is just that it's

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<v Speaker 3>like wow, like that's the kind of tone like everyone

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<v Speaker 3>should think the same things as me, and everyone should

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<v Speaker 3>stop being mean to me. On Twitter, like this is

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<v Speaker 3>the kind of.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think, I think, I think that's it.

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<v Speaker 1>I think because that's you know, because it's got the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the the sort of the long form essay

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<v Speaker 1>style of you know, you can imagine like Camu, like

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<v Speaker 1>you know when he writes The Rebel, you know what

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, or like you know, one of all Well's

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<v Speaker 1>long form essays or James Baldwin or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>But then the thing is is that it's just so daft.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like there's no there's no intellectual heft to it

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<v Speaker 1>at all. There's no I can't I think there's hardly

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<v Speaker 1>any reference to any other book on the topic or I.

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<v Speaker 3>I would like to talk to you about referencing. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I've done some very important research. Right while I was

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<v Speaker 3>reading the book, I counted that he references thirty tweets

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<v Speaker 3>in the book, right, And he doesn't just reference tweets,

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<v Speaker 3>he reproduces them with the image from Twitter of the

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<v Speaker 3>tweets right. Out of the thirty tweets, nine of them

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<v Speaker 3>are his own tweets, right, So basically the whole book

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<v Speaker 3>is just him doing a self retweet of his own

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<v Speaker 3>kind of really bad opinions and bad tweets, and I

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<v Speaker 3>kind of thought about I thought about this kind of

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<v Speaker 3>like phenomenon of like referencing yourself, and it reminded me

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<v Speaker 3>of when I did a Capital reading group, like and

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<v Speaker 3>I just and I realized that basically, this man, I've

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<v Speaker 3>never seen a Jew reference himself so much since I

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<v Speaker 3>read Capital Volume one like this, this, this is Carl

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<v Speaker 3>Mark's levels of like I'm I'm right, read my previous work.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, he even like, yeah, quotes one of his

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<v Speaker 3>novels at length as if that's like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Was actually one bit where I was like, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what that's this is an interesting this is

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<v Speaker 1>potentially interesting point. What's what's this book that he's And

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<v Speaker 1>then I went back and read read the paragraph again.

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<v Speaker 1>It was like, I know, he's just talking about one

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<v Speaker 1>of his own novels. This is not it's not research.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not researching like there's he's just constantly been like

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<v Speaker 1>oh yeah, this is all you see this all on

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<v Speaker 1>social media. I see many posts these days. It's like

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<v Speaker 1>that's not, that's not research, that's not it's just like

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<v Speaker 1>I've seen tweets. It's not you know, that's not that's not.

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<v Speaker 3>That's kind of like I think indicative of like his

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<v Speaker 3>overall focus of the book, which is he doesn't go

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<v Speaker 3>into great detail about why he's focusing on what is

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<v Speaker 3>basically this kind of very indeterminate blob that he calls progressives,

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<v Speaker 3>which is just like everything from like liberals, like centrist conservatives,

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<v Speaker 3>to like all different types of British institutions to well.

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<v Speaker 1>As well as we'll get on as we'll get onto

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<v Speaker 1>this later. But you know, one of the examples he

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<v Speaker 1>gives is actually not of a liberal or he is

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<v Speaker 1>actually of a Nazi collaborator. But somehow this has pinned somehow,

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<v Speaker 1>this has pinned on the on the left in some way.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I mean I think this is that's really

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<v Speaker 1>kind of key. And I think part of part of

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<v Speaker 1>this issue is that there is no intellectual or methodological.

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<v Speaker 3>Rigor to it.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's and and yeah, like you say, like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he's quoting his own tweets, he's quoting his own novels,

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<v Speaker 1>and like there's.

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<v Speaker 3>This from his own life. Yeah for the guy, because

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the time he's quoting things that have

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<v Speaker 3>happened where his friends have been racist. It's like, all right, mate,

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<v Speaker 3>if your friends are being racist, to you, that's not

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<v Speaker 3>like some representative of like the left or like progressive.

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<v Speaker 3>That means that you should have choose better friends.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got racist friends. And but there's this I mean

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<v Speaker 1>like as I was reading it, like there were I

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<v Speaker 1>got that. There's that line from Uh, there's a British

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<v Speaker 1>sitcom called Garth Marengi's Dark Place where the main character

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<v Speaker 1>is this author, Garth Marengi, and he says he says

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<v Speaker 1>the line, I'm actually one of the few authors who's

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<v Speaker 1>written more books than they've read. And as I was

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<v Speaker 1>reading this book, I was like, this is this is

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<v Speaker 1>Garth Morengi. You know what I mean?

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<v Speaker 3>This is it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like there's no no desire to look into anything

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<v Speaker 1>beyond Yeah, like you say, his own tweets, his own books,

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<v Speaker 1>and like, yeah, his his interactions with you know.

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<v Speaker 3>We probably know how many books he's written because he

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<v Speaker 3>probably references all of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I still cut you off there, but I

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<v Speaker 1>think you know, you talk about this this kind of

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<v Speaker 1>indeterminate blob that he's kind of aiming his his ayre towards.

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<v Speaker 1>This comes to basically the central claim of his of

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<v Speaker 1>his of his book, which is basically that that anti

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<v Speaker 1>Semitism is not taken as seriously as other as other

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<v Speaker 1>forms of racism, So for me, you know, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I think immediately on the face of it, anyone who's

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<v Speaker 1>faced any other form of racism apart from anti semitism

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<v Speaker 1>would probably raise their eyebrow at that idea, that suggestion.

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<v Speaker 1>But actually, like you say, he's limiting or he's claiming

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<v Speaker 1>to limit his discussion to just those on the left,

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<v Speaker 1>which he you know, he describes in this really really vague,

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<v Speaker 1>indeterminate way. I don't know if you want to say

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<v Speaker 1>a bit more about that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, it's it's really quite facile, like the

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<v Speaker 3>way that he does it, Like when he describes like

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<v Speaker 3>the left, it's almost like, you know, what was that

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<v Speaker 3>There was like a TV show in the eighties that

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<v Speaker 3>became this kind of like reference point for like kind

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<v Speaker 3>of fish left wing where the guy wears the beret and.

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<v Speaker 1>He's called like wof Citizens Smith. Yeah, something like that.

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<v Speaker 3>It's that kind of like it's a kind of liberal

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<v Speaker 3>way of talking about leftist politics. It's like not understanding

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<v Speaker 3>any part of any of the ideas or history of

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<v Speaker 3>the left, but it's kind of like he describes the

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<v Speaker 3>left as being fighty. You know that it's like the

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<v Speaker 3>left like it's supposed to care about injustice, but it

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't when it comes to Jews. And there's this thing

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<v Speaker 3>that he calls like the sacred circle, which is like

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<v Speaker 3>these are the kind of like prioritized or oppressed groups

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<v Speaker 3>that are included in the people that the left fights for.

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<v Speaker 3>So then you know, the left is like not anyone

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<v Speaker 3>who's from those groups. It's just like I guess, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>white indeterminate white people on the left who care about

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<v Speaker 3>certain minorities but don't care about Jews. And his kind

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<v Speaker 3>of analysis of like left anti semitism, which you know,

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<v Speaker 3>we'll probably discuss it more, but like you know, throughout

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<v Speaker 3>these years, last few years, there's been a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>discussion about anti semitism on the left, you know, and

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<v Speaker 3>it's kind of an exhausted topic. It's like you'd have

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<v Speaker 3>to like wade through this whole kind of like morass

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<v Speaker 3>of like bad faith to have any kind of like

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<v Speaker 3>useful conversation on it. But it's like it's something that

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<v Speaker 3>has a history that exists. There are like histories of

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<v Speaker 3>exclusion and of conspiracy type racism on the left towards Jews,

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<v Speaker 3>but like his kind of presentation of it, it's just

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<v Speaker 3>completely like puerile. It's just like the left doesn't care

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<v Speaker 3>about Jews because they think that Jews are all powerful

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<v Speaker 3>and are all kind of capitalists and bloody, bloody blah.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's like there's no engagement whatsoever with like any

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<v Speaker 3>kind of history, any kind of like the thought of

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<v Speaker 3>like Jewish left, this Jewish Marxist, Jewish anarchists, struggles over

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<v Speaker 3>the centuries of like working class Jewish culture. There's none

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<v Speaker 3>of that. It's just it's just this kind of like

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<v Speaker 3>one line thing of like this is why, this is why,

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<v Speaker 3>this is why Jews don't count for the left, and it's.

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<v Speaker 1>Just like, yeah, well this is this is actually what's funny.

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<v Speaker 1>Towards towards the end of the book, he goes the

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<v Speaker 1>response to Corbyn's labor mobilized British Jews for the first

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<v Speaker 1>time in history or something like that, and you're just like,

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<v Speaker 1>are you out of your mind? Like you know what

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, Like, you know, Jews in Britain, but not

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<v Speaker 1>just in Britain, you know, Jews in general, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the diaspora are some of the most mobilized politically mobilized people,

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<v Speaker 1>you know. Ever, like you know, it's just it's crazy,

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, you're talking, you know, in Britain. You

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<v Speaker 1>just need to go to like you know to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about I don't know, you know, the old like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>communists in East London. You know, they used to describe

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<v Speaker 1>like East London as a little Moscow, you know, because

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<v Speaker 1>it was so mobilized with the old kind of Jewish

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<v Speaker 1>trade unions.

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<v Speaker 3>And like, you know, there's a reason there's a reason

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<v Speaker 3>why the British ruling class talked about kind of anarchism

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<v Speaker 3>and terrorism. Like the reason why they racialized it is Jews.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not just because of their racism. It's because there

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<v Speaker 3>was loads of Jewish anarchists.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Jewish Bolshevism and like yeah, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>like it was just crazy to like it was what

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<v Speaker 1>do you mean like that you know in twenty whatever,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty seventeen or that that was the first time that

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<v Speaker 1>Jews had ever mobile is like Cable Street, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like the forty three group. There's so many things that

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<v Speaker 1>like so many times that Jews have organized politically and

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<v Speaker 1>he just doesn't mention it. It just has And again

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<v Speaker 1>it's its first.

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<v Speaker 3>Jewish trade union was founded in London in like the

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<v Speaker 3>eighteen seventies or something like, You've got massive history of

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<v Speaker 3>like Taylor strikes and solidarity and within those workers struggles

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<v Speaker 3>in the in the East. Then like it's I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>do you know what it reminds me of, Like when

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<v Speaker 3>he says, like for the first time, it's just like

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<v Speaker 3>this kind of classic ahistorical void of liberalism. It just

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<v Speaker 3>it reminds me of like, you know, when there were

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<v Speaker 3>there were kind of the kind of pro eu marches

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<v Speaker 3>that would happen around around kind of the Brexit time

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<v Speaker 3>have you'd have like like painfully middle class people kind

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<v Speaker 3>of holding up signs along the lines of like why

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<v Speaker 3>did you make me come out here and leave my house?

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<v Speaker 3>Like or like not usually the type to do this

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<v Speaker 3>kind of person. It's like this doesn't speak to like

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<v Speaker 3>the actual history of like Jewish struggle or Jews involved

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<v Speaker 3>in struggle in Britain. This speaks to like the deal

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<v Speaker 3>and lots of other Jews in the current period being

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<v Speaker 3>demobilized or being kind of like you know, suddenly deciding

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<v Speaker 3>oh we're going to be we're going to have to

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<v Speaker 3>like do protest things. So you had like you had

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<v Speaker 3>that absolutely bizarre kind of protest in like whenever it

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<v Speaker 3>was twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen, when you had like

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the Board of Deputies and various other like

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<v Speaker 3>kind of Jewish leadership organizations having like a kind of

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<v Speaker 3>sort of supposedly a protest. But it was like, how

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<v Speaker 3>do you have a protest if the entire kind of

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<v Speaker 3>state is on your side? Like everyone's all these Tory politicians,

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<v Speaker 3>all the government ministers are all there like with their

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<v Speaker 3>like plat like kind of perfectly kind of like laminated signs. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>like this, and it's just like that's that's what it

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<v Speaker 3>reminded me of. It's like, this is a kind of

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<v Speaker 3>this is the first time that we're doing this because

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<v Speaker 3>I have no idea what history is.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and yeah, and I think like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>so as part of as part of his kind of

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<v Speaker 1>his this claim that he's making about an anti Semitism

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<v Speaker 1>not being taken as seriously as other forms of racism

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<v Speaker 1>and specifically on the left, you know, he says in

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<v Speaker 1>this one part of the book at the beginning, he

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<v Speaker 1>says that what he's trying to do is and so

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<v Speaker 1>this is just to quote him that he's trying to

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<v Speaker 1>pinpoint something key about modern anti Semitism, which is the

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<v Speaker 1>left confusion over it. And so, you know, I read

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<v Speaker 1>that and I was like, Okay, you know, does that

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<v Speaker 1>does that make it because he's making it more precise,

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<v Speaker 1>He's he's maybe being a bit more precise about what

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<v Speaker 1>he's talking about. So does that does that make it

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<v Speaker 1>kind of better or sharper this now insight? And I

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<v Speaker 1>was like, no, actually, that makes it even stupider because

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<v Speaker 1>it's just like, you know, I was like, there, it's like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, so wait, so you're telling me that the key,

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<v Speaker 1>the key to modern anti semitism, you know, the crucial

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<v Speaker 1>thing to anti semitism today is the left confusion over it.

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<v Speaker 1>And you're just like, well, you know, at the moment,

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<v Speaker 1>we have like you know, political discourses around kind of

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<v Speaker 1>cultural Marxism and great replacement theory and saw us you know,

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<v Speaker 1>saw us money, and like, you know, have the far

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<v Speaker 1>right kind of spreading this, uh, these kind of anti

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<v Speaker 1>semitic these anti Semitic conspiracy theories, all the while kind

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<v Speaker 1>of still supporting Israel obviously, and and then so there's

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<v Speaker 1>that and that that sort of seems quite signific dificant

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of modern anti Semitism. But then also, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>so this book is published in twenty twenty one, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, at that point, you know, the Tories had

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<v Speaker 1>been in government for over a decade, the far right

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<v Speaker 1>were on the right art well, and still are on

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<v Speaker 1>the rise everywhere, you know what I mean. It's and

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<v Speaker 1>and so I'm kind of, you know, I'm just there.

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<v Speaker 1>I was thinking, like, I'm not sure that in that

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<v Speaker 1>context the left is key to anything, you know what

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<v Speaker 1>I mean?

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<v Speaker 2>As we come margin Martin and the Beauty of the Day, Amelion.

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<v Speaker 1>That brings us to the end of this episode. Preview

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<v Speaker 1>To listen to the full thing and help support our

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<v Speaker 1>work with searching and promoting people's history, join us on

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<v Speaker 1>Patreon at patreon dot com slash working class History link

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<v Speaker 1>in the show notes