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<v Speaker 1>Yorks Toxic. This is the seventy seven WABC Mini Cast.

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<v Speaker 2>Folks, this is the More Money Show. And thank you

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<v Speaker 2>so much for joining and taking some time out of

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<v Speaker 2>your weekend to become educated about what's going on with

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<v Speaker 2>our government because it is out of control. I think

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<v Speaker 2>everyone agrees, if you're a Democrat, Republican, independent, I think

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<v Speaker 2>everybody agrees that our government is out of control, the

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<v Speaker 2>costs are out of control, et cetera, et cetera. And

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, I am going to tomorrow. I feel

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<v Speaker 2>very privileged because I will be going to the Grand

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<v Speaker 2>Prix event in Washington, c. I believe that will be

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<v Speaker 2>also televised. But this is kind of what once. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think this has ever happened in Washington way of

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<v Speaker 2>an auto race right down Pennsylvania Avenue, so I'm really

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<v Speaker 2>looking forward to it. I hope it stays dry because

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<v Speaker 2>it's supposed to rain themorrow afternoon, and of course the

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<v Speaker 2>ground pre racers can't go very fast if the if

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<v Speaker 2>the roads are wet, So I'm praying for some sunshine

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<v Speaker 2>and stay dry. My next guest, by the way, and

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<v Speaker 2>don't forget in about ten minutes or so, we'll will

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<v Speaker 2>be taking your calls. I want your solutions to the

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<v Speaker 2>debt crisis. I want your one or two three things

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<v Speaker 2>that you would do to bring down this debt. And

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<v Speaker 2>if you think we should do this by raising taxes,

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<v Speaker 2>come on, come on the show. I want to hear

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<v Speaker 2>from you. This is freedom of speech radio. If you

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<v Speaker 2>disagree with me on this, I think raising taxes would

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<v Speaker 2>be a total disaster. I think they'll just spend the

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<v Speaker 2>money if you give them more money. But I'm open

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<v Speaker 2>to any suggestion that you might have about how we

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<v Speaker 2>can bring this debt down. One of the guys who's

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<v Speaker 2>dedicated his career's career to doing that is Phil Kirpin.

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<v Speaker 2>He works with me at Unleashed Prosperity as our executive director.

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<v Speaker 2>He also runs a group called America Commitment and has

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<v Speaker 2>been a long time advocate of a limited government and

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<v Speaker 2>economic freedom.

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<v Speaker 1>Phil.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for coming on.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, my pleasure.

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<v Speaker 2>So the reason I wanted to bring you on today, Phil,

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<v Speaker 2>you've been on the show many times is that I

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<v Speaker 2>read a story about healthcare costs coming down. Prescription drug

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<v Speaker 2>prices came down, and some of my more liberal friends

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<v Speaker 2>were saying, see see Biden's Inflation Control Act worked and

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<v Speaker 2>we brought the drug you know, we had all these

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<v Speaker 2>drug price controls and that's lowered the price of drugs.

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<v Speaker 2>And you're telling me that is not true.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that had very very little to do with it.

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<v Speaker 1>If you look at the drugs that have actually been

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<v Speaker 1>subject to the price controls, they really are not. First

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<v Speaker 1>of all, they're not enough of them. They've only been

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<v Speaker 1>ten of them. They're not enough of them to have

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<v Speaker 1>moved the entire category down in the consumer Price index.

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<v Speaker 2>But also, wait, hold on, hold on, you mean when

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<v Speaker 2>you say there's not enough of them, you mean there

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<v Speaker 2>weren't enough drugs.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, were subject of the price controls. Is okay, got me.

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<v Speaker 1>They're too few to have been the main factor behind

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<v Speaker 1>you know, price drop across all the prescription drugs. And

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<v Speaker 1>also the price reductions were much less than they told

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<v Speaker 1>us were going to happen, because what actually, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when they actually went through this process of justifying the

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<v Speaker 1>prices and going through this review at the HHS and

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<v Speaker 1>so forth, what they found is that these prices were

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<v Speaker 1>already pretty heavily negotiated with the individual Drug plan and

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<v Speaker 1>they were not able to deliver the reductions that they

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<v Speaker 1>thought they were going to which is probably good. By

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<v Speaker 1>the way, although you know some of the details of

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<v Speaker 1>how they want to do it going forward, they actually

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<v Speaker 1>could make more stringent price control. So I'm sort of

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<v Speaker 1>of two minds. You know, the price controls have been ineffective,

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<v Speaker 1>but that's probably good because if they'd been effective, they

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<v Speaker 1>would have undermined, you know, the incentives for new cures

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<v Speaker 1>and so forth. But what's actually brought prices down has

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<v Speaker 1>been the Trump administration policies to increase competition and choice

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<v Speaker 1>and increase investment in the US, and in particular Steve,

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<v Speaker 1>I think the key has been direct to consumer sales,

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<v Speaker 1>and these have really taken off out the middle now

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Mark Cuban has a site and there, and what

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<v Speaker 1>we're seeing is, you know, a lot of the pharmacy

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<v Speaker 1>counter sales are lower because they're trying to compete because

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<v Speaker 1>they know that people now can go other places. And

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<v Speaker 1>so I think that's been been a very big But

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, we shouldn't overstate this. You know, the twelve

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<v Speaker 1>month decrease of three point one percent is the largest

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<v Speaker 1>decrease we've ever seen since they started keeping these stats

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen seventy. But see, it's still only three percent,

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<v Speaker 1>So most people are going to say, well, the drugs

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<v Speaker 1>are still very expensive, so look directionally, it's great, it's

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<v Speaker 1>still pretty small overall, and of course, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>bigger challenges are you know, insurance costs and hospital costs,

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<v Speaker 1>and hospital costs have been almost vertical, and so, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's nice. I do think the president there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of credits for it, but I really would like to

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<v Speaker 1>see Republicans doing much more on healthcare than what they've

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<v Speaker 1>done so far.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, me too. So when we talk about our forty

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<v Speaker 2>trillion dollars national debt, which is actually about thirty two trillion,

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<v Speaker 2>it's still a gigantic number. Healthcare really has been one

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<v Speaker 2>of you know, Medicare and Medicaid really have been a

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<v Speaker 2>drivers of our debt and also the higher costs of healthcare.

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<v Speaker 2>In other words, when we put in Medicare and Medicaid,

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<v Speaker 2>they were supposed to hold down prices of healthcare. But

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<v Speaker 2>the more we spend on Medicare and Meta, it seems

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<v Speaker 2>like the more the prices go up.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is the you know, this is the problem

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<v Speaker 1>with the Democrats solution to every problem being for more

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<v Speaker 1>taxpayer money at it. Oh, it's too expensive, so we'll

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<v Speaker 1>subsidize it more. Well, what happens is it flows through

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<v Speaker 1>into higher prices. And in particular in healthcare, we've got

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<v Speaker 1>really high barriers to entry, many of which are caused

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<v Speaker 1>by all of the rules and regulations and so forth.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you know, we've now got you basically three

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<v Speaker 1>giant insurance companies. Most markets have one or two giant

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<v Speaker 1>hospital systems. And so when you pour more money in,

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<v Speaker 1>you pour more subsidies, and it flows right through into

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<v Speaker 1>higher prices. It does not actually, it does not actually

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<v Speaker 1>increase supply or increase access. It flows through into higher prices.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course, when you've got open ended obligations to

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<v Speaker 1>provide healthcare for all the old people in Medicare and

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<v Speaker 1>all the poor people in medicaid, you can imagine how

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<v Speaker 1>that destroys the budgetary outlook.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, the Democrats, Phil, I'm talking about Phil Kirpan, who's

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<v Speaker 2>with an economist at American Commitment and also works with

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<v Speaker 2>me at Unleashed Prosperity.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>If I had a Democrat on uh, you know, debating you, Phil,

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<v Speaker 2>the Democrat would say, oh, what we need is medicare

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<v Speaker 2>for all, So everybody would just get the Medicare that

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<v Speaker 2>senior citizens got. I know, a lot of people think, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a great idea, you know, that'll reduce costs. What

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<v Speaker 2>do you make of that idea?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, uh, Medicare is not doing so great. So when

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<v Speaker 1>they say all the exactly people on it, I kind

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<v Speaker 1>of touched my head a little bit. You know, this

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<v Speaker 1>is the this is the horrible irony of where we

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<v Speaker 1>are on healthcare right now. The same party that put

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<v Speaker 1>a huge government imprint on our healthcare system it's working

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<v Speaker 1>so poorly. Then they say, see, the problem is there's

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<v Speaker 1>too much free market. We need even more government total

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<v Speaker 1>deving to take over. But you know, you look, you

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<v Speaker 1>look around the world at countries that have the most centralized,

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<v Speaker 1>bureaucratized healthcare systems, like the United Kingdom, like Canada, and

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<v Speaker 1>they do contain costs in a way, but they contain

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<v Speaker 1>costs by rational care, by having long waiting less. That's

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<v Speaker 1>not that that's not a solution that I think most

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<v Speaker 1>Americans would want.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let people die and you reduce your health care costs,

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<v Speaker 2>right right exactly?

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<v Speaker 1>Or many people live with a brace and painkillers instead

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<v Speaker 1>of getting joint replacement. Joint replace is very hard to

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<v Speaker 1>get in most of those countries.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a great point, a really good point. So I've

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<v Speaker 2>been uh, well, one other issue I want to bring

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<v Speaker 2>on bring up with respect to healthcare costs. Something that

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<v Speaker 2>we've advocated is this idea of more price transparency. So

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<v Speaker 2>when you go to the hospital or the insurance company

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<v Speaker 2>or the you know, buy a drug or go to

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<v Speaker 2>a clinic, that you know that you know what the

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<v Speaker 2>prices are. Because nobody really knows what anything costs, you

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<v Speaker 2>don't really have a functioning market.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so important, it's so important, and you know, Trump

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<v Speaker 1>has done a lot of things on executive authority to

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<v Speaker 1>order more transparency. The problem is we've got very poor

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<v Speaker 1>compliance and the fines are relatively small. So when you

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<v Speaker 1>have a multi billion dollar health hospital system and they're

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<v Speaker 1>not posting their prices even though they've been ordered to,

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<v Speaker 1>and the fine is you know, a maximum million dollars,

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<v Speaker 1>well they're a multi billion dollar sistm them, so it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't necessarily move them. And so I would like to

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<v Speaker 1>see more legislation on this, and there now have been

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<v Speaker 1>pretty good bills passed in the committee level. I'm both

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<v Speaker 1>the House and Senate, but you know, four times at

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<v Speaker 1>a premium, and then there's the question of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what vehicle is there. But this is the one aspect

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<v Speaker 1>transparency where maybe it could be bipartisan. You know, Schumer

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<v Speaker 1>had been blocking anything related to hospital transparency, in particular

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<v Speaker 1>because the New York hospitals where he sort of gave

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<v Speaker 1>them a veto, but he was sort of I learned

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<v Speaker 1>he's capable of shame Steve because it got reported in

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<v Speaker 1>political that he's no abossles, I'll never do anything you

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<v Speaker 1>don't agree to. And then he changed his mind and said,

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<v Speaker 1>oh no, actually we may do some things the hospitals

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<v Speaker 1>don't like, and so maybe something bipartisan could be done.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm not super optimistic about anything legislative at this

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<v Speaker 1>point in the calendar.

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<v Speaker 2>So what do you think of my idea of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>no price, no pay. In other words, if you know,

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<v Speaker 2>let's just play hardball with these people, because you're right,

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<v Speaker 2>they're not complying with they're not They say that there's

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<v Speaker 2>price transparency, but I don't know. I don't see price

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<v Speaker 2>transparency when I go to the doctor or a physician's office,

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, why not force them, like if the

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<v Speaker 2>patient can attest to the fact that they were never

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<v Speaker 2>told what it was going to cost, they don't have

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<v Speaker 2>to pay for And I think if you did that,

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<v Speaker 2>they would start posting every price everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>I love it. I love it. I know. I think

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<v Speaker 1>Ted Cruz has picked up your idea and it's running

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<v Speaker 1>with you know, to me, that makes much more sense

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<v Speaker 1>than trying to figure out how much you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>find them after the fact. And you know, if we

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<v Speaker 1>could do that, if we could really put something in

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<v Speaker 1>with piece that requires prices to be posted, that could

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<v Speaker 1>be one of the key ingredients to getting a real

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<v Speaker 1>market system. Along with I think a couple of us,

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<v Speaker 1>we need to fix the payment policies and the tax

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<v Speaker 1>policies that have caused so much consolidation, so we can

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<v Speaker 1>have more independent doctors in imaging centers and clinics and

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<v Speaker 1>surgical centers. And we've got to make people control the

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<v Speaker 1>healthcare dollars, whether they're in a government program or an employer.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, if we could do those things, don't

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<v Speaker 1>have the money disappear into insurance companies, have transparency, and

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<v Speaker 1>have more competition and choice. I think we would bring

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<v Speaker 1>down costs in a way where we would get more

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<v Speaker 1>and better health there instead of you know less and worse.

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<v Speaker 2>I always tell the story that, you know, a few

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, I jolted my shoulder, so, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>went to the doctor and he said, you have a

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<v Speaker 2>small rotator cuff you know issue, and you're on the

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he said, you may certain need surgery or

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<v Speaker 2>may decide to just use physical therapy. And I asked

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<v Speaker 2>the doctor how much it would cost if I had

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<v Speaker 2>the you know, the surgery. He said he didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>what would cost. The doctor didn't know what would cost

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<v Speaker 2>and and you know, I don't know what it costs.

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<v Speaker 2>He doesn't know what it costs. He said. I was

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<v Speaker 2>the first time he'd ever had a patient ask him

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<v Speaker 2>how much it was going to cost. I mean, this

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<v Speaker 2>is just not the way to run a free enterprise country.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's crazy. You know. The other thing that I've

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<v Speaker 1>done a few times now, which you know, people should

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<v Speaker 1>try this. It's amazing. Sometimes you go to the pharmacy

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<v Speaker 1>counter and then you know, they ring up a drug

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<v Speaker 1>for you and they say, oh, it's seventy dollars or something,

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<v Speaker 1>and they say, oh, what would it cost if you

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<v Speaker 1>ran it as cash? And then I say, oh, twenty

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<v Speaker 1>dollars and say, Okay, do it that way. I really yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>because sometimes the insurance company they have a contract with

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<v Speaker 1>make some charge of higher kick the money up to them.

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<v Speaker 2>Incredible. All right, we got just two months left, phil Kerpen,

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<v Speaker 2>I've been asking every guest, so I'm going to put

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<v Speaker 2>you on the hook for this. I want your two

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<v Speaker 2>best ideas for how we start to bring down this

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<v Speaker 2>forty trillion dollar debt.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think the key is that we've got to

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<v Speaker 1>reduce government spending. And I would do this in a

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<v Speaker 1>few ways. One in the healthcare forms we were just

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<v Speaker 1>talking about, I think would help a lot. But we

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<v Speaker 1>really need to have a major, major anti fraud push.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that in particular, we've got to cut

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<v Speaker 1>off the flow of welfare federal welfare, welfare dollars to

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<v Speaker 1>the states that have massive fraud rates, and like California,

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<v Speaker 1>we're food stamps and Medicaid and every other welfare program,

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<v Speaker 1>housing VAT. They all get massively abused, they get massively abused,

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<v Speaker 1>and we need to move in the direction of shifting

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<v Speaker 1>these programs to the states, so at least the state

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<v Speaker 1>that allows massive fraud, it's only their state stax payers. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>would and people can leave the state as opposed to

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<v Speaker 1>all these things being run out of Washington. So I

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<v Speaker 1>would say that, and I would say bring back, bring

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<v Speaker 1>back caps on discribtiontionary spending. They're not perfect, and they

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<v Speaker 1>do get waived from time to time, but at least

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<v Speaker 1>when we have them on, they seem to exert some

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<v Speaker 1>downward pressure. So I would say those are the two

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<v Speaker 1>biggest things that come to mind.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, one thing we used to have, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>for a while in Washington that worked for a while

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<v Speaker 2>was pay as you go budgeting. So if you wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to have a new let's say, supplemental spending bills because

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<v Speaker 2>you need money for an emergency farmers or for the military,

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<v Speaker 2>you would actually have to offset that by cutting other programs.

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<v Speaker 2>But we don't have anything like that. In fact, we

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<v Speaker 2>don't even have a freaking budget.

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<v Speaker 1>It's amazing. See, if you know, we always used to

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<v Speaker 1>complain that they would use different gimmicks and timing tricks

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<v Speaker 1>and different things. Now we don't even bother. Now we

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<v Speaker 1>don't even try. Now we don't even pretend to pay

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<v Speaker 1>for things. Incredible.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Phil Kirpin, thank you so much for your wisdom.

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<v Speaker 2>That is Phil corpet look him up at the American

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<v Speaker 2>commitment