Speaker 1: Baby on My Gamestera too.
Speaker 2: It takes a little tangle.
Speaker 1: You don't mess with me, mess with me baby my
Speaker 1: gamester too, pouch baby game Statooar.
Speaker 3: This podcast is designed to take you outside of your
Speaker 3: comfort zone and make you question reality. Listener discretion is
Speaker 3: a vibe.
Speaker 4: Fellas, this ain't my first time at the rodeos.
Speaker 3: How do you, folks? Your host double J back here,
Speaker 3: coming at you live slash live in a deep rain
Speaker 3: delay from my studio slash RV dining room located directly
Speaker 3: inside America. Folks of interwebs, once again JJ Vance here,
Speaker 3: host of Operation GCD right there and perhaps more notably
Speaker 3: not the vice president. So thanks for joining me here tonight, folks.
Speaker 3: I will be your pilot navigator for tonight's Shenanigan infused
Speaker 3: journey into the mind of this particular garbage can dude
Speaker 3: and knocking a lot of you folks of interwebs, got
Speaker 3: a real barn burner on deck for you all tonight
Speaker 3: in a cult and a or s O terror review
Speaker 3: of the nineteen eighty one film Ghost Story. And if
Speaker 3: you folks of interwebs were like me and had not
Speaker 3: heard of this film, you know it is an interesting
Speaker 3: watch and hopefully you'll you'll reach that conclusion yourself. After
Speaker 3: we discussed the Night's review. But it was the inspiration
Speaker 3: of Tonight's guests that spawned this review because once again
Speaker 3: I had not heard of this film, but Tonight's guest
Speaker 3: John Mitchell, one of Tonight's guests, John Mitchell, in his
Speaker 3: blog over on Substack, is highlighting a lot of these
Speaker 3: matters relative to the Sun of Sam and this particular
Speaker 3: one out of Peter straw books, that is the author
Speaker 3: of this story that was later adapted into a film.
Speaker 3: But this particular one ghost story I find interesting because
Speaker 3: it was written contemporaneously to the Son of Sam events
Speaker 3: in New York City back in with the arrest of
Speaker 3: Burke Whits in seventy seven, and Straw writes this book
Speaker 3: in seventy eight and is published in January of seventy nine,
Speaker 3: and seems like seems like Peter Straw was in the
Speaker 3: know and a lot of these cult details in around
Speaker 3: that whole Sun of Sam process situation, and John's a
Speaker 3: great research for into these matters relative to Yonkers cult
Speaker 3: activities in around New York City, specifically Westchester County, New York.
Speaker 3: The place I like to call a den of iniquity.
Speaker 3: But thanks for joining us here tonight to get a
Speaker 3: little GCD folks, and welcome our guests, John Mitchell and
Speaker 3: Julia from Cosmic Peach. How y'all doing, Welcome to Operation GCD.
Speaker 3: Welcome back now your first time, is it? Julia? John
Speaker 3: greeting sir. Always great to have you back as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good to be back.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, thanks thanks for having me. Jj. I'm excited
Speaker 5: about this one.
Speaker 3: For sure, me too. I really, you know, horror films
Speaker 3: are not my you know, not my favorite genre, but
Speaker 3: this one, given the esoteric understandings of a lot of
Speaker 3: the things, uh and uh, just a lot of the
Speaker 3: elements of the story I found very interesting. So and
Speaker 3: it wasn't I had never heard of this film. So
Speaker 3: and we actually had two other parties joining us tonight.
Speaker 3: We had Davy Wavey and Nick has to be a
Speaker 3: cult rejects. However, much like the characters in Tonight's film
Speaker 3: who just seemingly, you know, fall off and die throughout
Speaker 3: the storyline of Tonight's discussion. In the film plotline, Nick
Speaker 3: and Davey Wavey didn't die, but I'm saying they've fallen
Speaker 3: off Tonight's panal due to other reasons, weather and other matters,
Speaker 3: personal matters. Nonetheless, we uh, we continue with our with
Speaker 3: our with our review. And uh, I don't know, I
Speaker 3: don't know. I have a lot of occult stuff. I mean,
Speaker 3: I definitely saw a lot of esoteric stuff in the film.
Speaker 3: And what were your thoughts, John Overall? I know you've
Speaker 3: written a pretty an extensive block piece on Strab's work,
Speaker 3: but you did a lot of you highlighted a lot
Speaker 3: of very salient characteristics. I think of the Son of
Speaker 3: Sam cult right in your blog piece relative to the
Speaker 3: ghost story plotline, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, there's an awful lot of stuff, especially in
Speaker 2: the in the novel, but some of it survives in
Speaker 2: the movie too, really really conscious references to the Ynker's cult,
Speaker 2: And it's sort of like it's a version of the
Speaker 2: story that never mentioned Son of Sam directly, but it
Speaker 2: references all the other players and locations except for Son
Speaker 2: of Sam itself. So it's it's it's odd the way
Speaker 2: he did it, but it was ingenious for the book.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a really interesting story structure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree for sure. I got some ideas on
Speaker 3: those similar things that I saw, perhaps that more annoyed
Speaker 3: thoughts I suppose of anything else, But before we get
Speaker 3: into that, to those discussions, and before we discuss our
Speaker 3: blog posts. Again, thank y'all both for joining me here,
Speaker 3: and if I can offer you both, you know, your
Speaker 3: time to plug anything you're working on or an introduction
Speaker 3: anything you're working on, please John start us off there.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I know you got.
Speaker 3: You got some new blog stuff, but as far as
Speaker 3: and I'll have the links here in the show notes.
Speaker 3: But if, yeah, if you want to introduce some of
Speaker 3: your work, and and then Julie, of course we'll let
Speaker 3: you do that next. And uh, then we'll get in
Speaker 3: our discussion. Okay, well I'm not cutting out.
Speaker 2: Well, I wrote a long essay or a short booklet
Speaker 2: I guess, or pamphlet depending on how you you know
Speaker 2: which classification you prefer, called before Son of Sam and
Speaker 2: in the Substack blog, I'm just elaborating on some of
Speaker 2: the points that I originally made in the booklet. And occasionally,
Speaker 2: you know, you run across new information that relates to
Speaker 2: things that you've already discussed. So yeah, I had been
Speaker 2: thinking about the death Mask murder in the last few days,
Speaker 2: so I just wrote up a little something on that,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's all Son of Sam adjacent stuff.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's awesome, And I'll make sure these links
Speaker 3: from the show notes for folks that jack out. We'll
Speaker 3: be diving into some of those blog posts here in
Speaker 3: a second, because that death Mask one, that's a I
Speaker 3: find out a very interesting and important case for folks
Speaker 3: to understand what's going on with all that. But before
Speaker 3: we get into that, Julia, thanks again man for joining
Speaker 3: me here tonight. What have you been working out of
Speaker 3: the Cosmic Peach podcast?
Speaker 5: So, I'm actually working on something that I was talking
Speaker 5: to John about before we started recording or before we
Speaker 5: went live, which is program serial Killers. It's one of
Speaker 5: my favorite subjects to talk about. I actually I've discovered
Speaker 5: two new program serial Killers that were not mentioned in
Speaker 5: Program to Kill, but I've put together presentations on both
Speaker 5: of them and those episodes will be coming out in
Speaker 5: a month or so. I'd love to talk to you
Speaker 5: JJ about them because they're absolutely mind blowing the connections.
Speaker 5: But yeah, Cosmic podcast, uh huh oh sorry, go ahead,
Speaker 5: oh yeah podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. But yeah,
Speaker 5: I got a lot of cool stuff I'm working on,
Speaker 5: and this episode seems to be falling right in line
Speaker 5: with a bunch of stuff I'm working on too. Actually,
Speaker 5: you know, program Killers is uh the best subject in
Speaker 5: my opinion.
Speaker 3: It's funny you mentioned that with this film hitting on
Speaker 3: so many subjects of things we're already working on, because
Speaker 3: I you know, it's not necessarily relative to the conversation.
Speaker 3: So I'll bring it up here in a moment of
Speaker 3: how that kind of hit. This film hit home to
Speaker 3: me in some weird synchronistic fashions, right, But to this
Speaker 3: Graham Killer note, you know, I think that is interesting
Speaker 3: that I do think there is an aspect I think
Speaker 3: mcgawan was correct relating some of the matters to this
Speaker 3: cold activity and killings the son of Sam Coult and
Speaker 3: related to cold activity in around the ankers that Johns
Speaker 3: highlighted on his bag. I do find that very relative.
Speaker 3: The two conversations are the same in my opinion.
Speaker 5: Hmm.
Speaker 3: Now, these ones you were going over, they weren't by
Speaker 3: name Buffalo Jared Revisa, were they?
Speaker 5: No? No, you probably won't even recognize him. If I
Speaker 5: told you the name, I bet you probably haven't even
Speaker 5: heard of him.
Speaker 3: John Are you familiar with my former stalker and the
Speaker 3: guy who demanded to be my pr Rep Buffalo Jared Reviza,
Speaker 3: the parent mind controlled assassin. He went on a multi
Speaker 3: state stabbing spree.
Speaker 2: I think we talked about the first.
Speaker 3: I talked about him.
Speaker 2: A few months back. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I did a show there night about a
Speaker 3: cannibalistic homicidal kid ddling serial killer. It's like a boy,
Speaker 3: the serial killer named Nathaniel Barr Jonah Right, would you
Speaker 3: believe the same Bridgewater Statemental Hospital that let that that
Speaker 3: looney tune, you know, on the loosse to go murder
Speaker 3: and eat more kids? In nineteen ninety one, he moved
Speaker 3: to Great Falls, Montana and continued his activities despite being
Speaker 3: a registered offender in the state of Massachusetts and let
Speaker 3: out of the looney bin after already doing this to
Speaker 3: five other kids, five other kids, not eating them. He
Speaker 3: didn't do that until later, but or at least on record,
Speaker 3: but he was let out the Bridgewater Statemental Hospital, and
Speaker 3: that's where Buffalo Jared allegedly sits today. So I have
Speaker 3: a lot of come on, I have a lot of questions.
Speaker 5: JJ. The only thing that's even adjacent to being in
Speaker 5: a military program, is being in a minial hospital. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean they'll get you either way.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you said that. So to this point
Speaker 3: of how these these homicidal mind controlled you know, you know,
Speaker 3: hypnosis controlled or whatever you want to call it, serial killers,
Speaker 3: serial killers, right, you know, the system time and time
Speaker 3: seems to just you know, inadvertently or accidentally let these
Speaker 3: people out. So in the case of Nathaniel bar Jonah,
Speaker 3: he had not only attempted to murder five children, beginning
Speaker 3: eighth at the age of seven, and by the age
Speaker 3: of seventeen, was in prison on a twenty year clip
Speaker 3: for doing the same stuff keeping trying to kidnap and
Speaker 3: kill children dressed as a police officer Edward wayn Edwards
Speaker 3: would do the same thing, by the way, nonetheless, his
Speaker 3: focus wasn't children, at least overwhelmingly, but nonetheless, Nathaniel bar
Speaker 3: Jonah he tells numerous psychiatrists that he wants to kill
Speaker 3: and eat children. He tells the judge that the judges
Speaker 3: as it's no big deal, We're gonna let this go.
Speaker 3: He's not this guy's not a danger to society. He
Speaker 3: tells another psychiatrist that after the judge makes them willing
Speaker 3: to let him out of the state mental hospital fourteen
Speaker 3: years after on a twenty year clip in prison for
Speaker 3: the kid the kid kidnapping and attempt to murder two children, right,
Speaker 3: and when they let him out, he did the same
Speaker 3: thing less than a month later.
Speaker 5: Fucker.
Speaker 3: And you know what, you know what the district attorney
Speaker 3: did on that on that charge that he did when
Speaker 3: he kidnapped the kid less than month later, and he
Speaker 3: would he was a three hundred pounds dude, so he
Speaker 3: would disable the children by sitting on them, right, this
Speaker 3: is this is his m He did the same thing,
Speaker 3: kidnapping their kid, did the same thing, and the and
Speaker 3: the uh County prosecutor there said, you know what, I
Speaker 3: don't this guy's not a day. We're gonna give him probation.
Speaker 3: We're gonna give him probation.
Speaker 5: So well, that's the same with Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.
Speaker 5: They catch exactly exactly. And actually one of the serial
Speaker 5: killers that I'm covering in an upcoming episode kept getting
Speaker 5: let back out too. It was like orders from the
Speaker 5: district attorney's office letting this guy out. I mean, I
Speaker 5: can't give too much away obviously because you'll have to
Speaker 5: listen to the episode, but it is crazy. And I
Speaker 5: did see in the in the comment section they said,
Speaker 5: is this the nineteen eighty one movie? Yes, it is,
Speaker 5: and I had never heard of it, and I was
Speaker 5: actually really excited because I love horror movies.
Speaker 3: And on these kind of same notes of the mind
Speaker 3: controlled serial killer, sasas and stuff, when we're talking all
Speaker 3: these satanic cults and matters relative to the Son of
Speaker 3: Same or the Process, right it is And one note
Speaker 3: before I plugged the Anatomy of a Satanic panic series
Speaker 3: starting tomorrow and Operation GCD Patreon, Nathaniel Barjona, the judge
Speaker 3: that let him out was the special prosecutor in the
Speaker 3: chap Aquidit case to let ted Kennedy walk, Make that
Speaker 3: makes sense. And the woman that died in there, Mary
Speaker 3: Joe Capecney. She was the senior staff or the RFK
Speaker 3: on his presidential campaign, you know, the one where the
Speaker 3: Process was associated with this assassination. And Teddy Kennedy by
Speaker 3: that point in time, had already been documented meeting with
Speaker 3: the Process and the Cambridge, Massachusetts mayor at the Process
Speaker 3: coffee shop in Cambridge, Massachusetts prior to this eight so
Speaker 3: seems seems kind of odd that this judge. You know,
Speaker 3: all I like to say is process. Folks are gonna process, right,
Speaker 3: So in this this judge seemed like he was more
Speaker 3: than willing to ignore numerous statements from psychiatrists, statements from
Speaker 3: the the actual homicidal psychopathic kid dedling, you know, serial
Speaker 3: killer maniac guy, and another psychiatrist after he made his
Speaker 3: decision just to say, you know what, we're gonna let
Speaker 3: this guy out. He's on a dangerous society.
Speaker 5: There's no coincidences.
Speaker 3: So that I'll be going over certain aspects of unpacking
Speaker 3: this is the quote unquote satanic panic and how ridiculous
Speaker 3: a lot of these concepts are, and how they revolve
Speaker 3: around a lot of around the psychological operations components, specifically
Speaker 3: in other matters around this guy. Colonel Michael Aquino, Now, Julie,
Speaker 3: are you famire? This is a relative to Dave mcgow
Speaker 3: and John some of his work he did besides the
Speaker 3: Program to Kill on some of these matters. Are you
Speaker 3: familiar with the the infamous exchange that Aquino had with
Speaker 3: Dave McGowan Syrica two thousand and one.
Speaker 5: He had uh interaction with David Oh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So another one of the books, John, John,
Speaker 3: you may not be familiar with this one, Julia, you
Speaker 3: may be familiar with it.
Speaker 5: Pedocracy, pedioocracy, Yeah, the pedaphocracy.
Speaker 3: There we go, Pedophocracy, the McGowan books. So Aquina read that,
Speaker 3: saw his name and other associated friends in there, and
Speaker 3: wrote him an email saying, you're a madman, you're making
Speaker 3: stuff up. You're you're creating satanic panic. Was a statement
Speaker 3: of Quino made the McGowan be email. Obviously McGowan wasn't
Speaker 3: buying it, no, and.
Speaker 5: Also he probably read it and knew his goose was
Speaker 5: cooked because McGowan had all the facts there. He never
Speaker 5: published anything without having all the facts for sure.
Speaker 3: And it's a it's a quite hilarious exchange. And I
Speaker 3: will be coming going over with some of that and
Speaker 3: my you know, outline and unpacking of this quote unquote
Speaker 3: satanic panic. That again, when a man like Michael Quino
Speaker 3: is accusing folks who were studying facts, and again McGowan
Speaker 3: you know, provides in the fact states the facts as
Speaker 3: you were pointing out, Julia, in the email exchanges they have,
Speaker 3: you know, and it's kind of laughable. His response is
Speaker 3: because mcgallan has a way of being kind of sarcastic
Speaker 3: without even with being intelligent at the same time. You
Speaker 3: know what I mean.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm r I p Dave McGowan. I love that guy.
Speaker 5: And also, hello Maria, I saw her mentioning me in
Speaker 5: the comments.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that'll be a good one. Say on. On
Speaker 3: top of that, I have one more plug before we
Speaker 3: get we get started here, folks, and I do apologize
Speaker 3: for any long winded natures. I have a actually we
Speaker 3: have we have a different a cult esoteric review coming
Speaker 3: up next week, don't we, Julia, Yes, we do. So
Speaker 3: I married an axe murderer, right, Yeah, that's not it.
Speaker 3: I got it here somewhere stand by one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I married an axe murderers. Next week, yep.
Speaker 3: This time. Next Wednesday, we have a different cult esoteric
Speaker 3: view with the Cosmic Peach returning back along with myself,
Speaker 3: Jen the Ninja Cain, my Idaho for I Haven't Costello Cohort,
Speaker 3: and of course Hearty Love from Unfiltered Rise podcast. So
Speaker 3: that'll be a good one. And then the following week
Speaker 3: I have an occult esoteric review on lethal weapon. Relative
Speaker 3: to all these Iran contra speaking of serial killers, Phoenix
Speaker 3: program come Home ideas of David McGowan that we see
Speaker 3: kind of depicted in that film, along with the drug
Speaker 3: running that we know around things such as BCCI and
Speaker 3: Iran Contra matters there. So that'd be a good one.
Speaker 3: And then actually, I forgot one more here. I got
Speaker 3: this Sunday on Operation GCD Patreon Sundays. I got the
Speaker 3: serial killer. You have never heard of Edward Wyn Edwards.
Speaker 3: So speaking of more serial killers, that's a serial killers,
Speaker 3: that's a This one's a real barn burner because, as
Speaker 3: I state in the title, most folks have never heard
Speaker 3: of the man. He's one of the most, if not
Speaker 3: the most diabolical serial killer in American history. So Day
Speaker 3: Dark Ship, that's a good one.
Speaker 5: That's a statement right there, JJ.
Speaker 3: Absolutely so on that note, let's talk more serial killers?
Speaker 3: Did I cut out in my back?
Speaker 5: No, you're good? You want John to go first?
Speaker 3: Well, I was gonna say, let's, uh, let's me bring
Speaker 3: up the film first. Yeah, well we'll actually know what
Speaker 3: Let's let's jump into some of John's work if you
Speaker 3: don't mind on the Sun of Sam stuff. So I'm
Speaker 3: sure Julia you'll be knowledgeable in some of these topics.
Speaker 3: He's discussing here in his blog posts. Yeah, so John,
Speaker 3: what what? What? What's been your It seems like you
Speaker 3: on your blog post from from what I've read off
Speaker 3: your recent ones, you've been highlighting the ongoing activity, right,
Speaker 3: you did some of the ongoing activities here and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very recent uh story from Westchester County about uh
Speaker 2: new or recent animal mutilations. Oh interesting that the one
Speaker 2: of the New York City council women even acknowledges that,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's cults that are doing this, so
Speaker 2: that I don't think this kind of activity ever stopped.
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, it was obviously was going on
Speaker 2: well before the Son of sam Era, but it continued,
Speaker 2: you know, long after Berkowitz was arrested, and you know
Speaker 2: the case was allegedly over.
Speaker 3: So John, color me shock that Westchester County remains adent
Speaker 3: of inequity today as god back in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 3: But no, it says right here though, right like you said,
Speaker 3: that these are fringe groups mutilating and killing animals, says
Speaker 3: New York City councilwoman Joe Anne. And that's a real name, Ariola, Ariola.
Speaker 5: So John, is it your opinion that this is accurate
Speaker 5: or are they giving us more smoking mirrors? Like are
Speaker 5: they trying to distract us, like, oh, it's you look
Speaker 5: at this, look at this like you what are your
Speaker 5: thoughts on that?
Speaker 2: I think this one is because when I started to
Speaker 2: get into like full time research, I had read another
Speaker 2: story I think was actually in USA today, where similar
Speaker 2: things were happening to this, like four or five years ago.
Speaker 2: So it appears to be ongoing up there now you
Speaker 2: know what it's attached to. Who's in charge of the
Speaker 2: activity these days? I couldn't say, but and I've spoken
Speaker 2: to people from the area, and everybody seems to sort
Speaker 2: of be aware on some level that this kind of
Speaker 2: stuff has always happened and continues to happen. I think
Speaker 2: it is legit. Of course, there could be way worse
Speaker 2: things that are happening, you know, that are behind the
Speaker 2: scenes that we don't see. But at the very least,
Speaker 2: this continued ritual sacrifice of animals I think indicates that
Speaker 2: that basically the same practices are still being conducted in
Speaker 2: that area.
Speaker 3: Okay, I gotcha, And it's kind of never stopped if
Speaker 3: you look at I mean, just from my just from
Speaker 3: my take on all these matters is. Looking at some
Speaker 3: of the newspaper accounts, there's records of mutilated animals throughout Westchester, Puttnam,
Speaker 3: even Fairfield County, Connecticut, so throughout the eighties even yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: into the nineties. So it didn't seem like it ever
Speaker 3: really stopped, right. I mean, they may shift their mode
Speaker 3: of operations and where their locations are doing things maybe,
Speaker 3: I guess right, but right, an ongoing enterprise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, different public parks and things like that, But it's
Speaker 2: it's it's always in areas where they seem to leave
Speaker 2: some traces of evidence deliberately so that people will see
Speaker 2: it and talk about it. And I think that's an
Speaker 2: ongoing preoccupation of these groups.
Speaker 3: Got that. So on that note, What do you think
Speaker 3: they're doing that for? Is it a psychological terror campaign
Speaker 3: to scare America? When they're leaving things behind, they could
Speaker 3: just as easily clean it up as you just pointed out,
Speaker 3: And I do agree.
Speaker 2: I think it's like Peter Strub said in the novel
Speaker 2: ghost Story, they like to flaunt themselves. They like to
Speaker 2: leave breadcrumbs. It's it's a perverse thing that I think.
Speaker 2: It's like people who are flashers or something like it.
Speaker 2: People just they want people to see it. You know,
Speaker 2: whatever it is they're doing, I have to have an
Speaker 2: audience of some type for it.
Speaker 3: So it's kind of that that same kind of ego
Speaker 3: driven kind of thing, right, they're trying other people look
Speaker 3: at him naked. My math teacher did that in high school.
Speaker 3: He forced people to do that. It was after high school,
Speaker 3: but sadly he's my favorite, one of my favorite teachers
Speaker 3: in high school. But he was driving around after a
Speaker 3: couple years later, just getting women to pull over on
Speaker 3: the local highway or whatever and then running out there
Speaker 3: with an overcoat on, saying, you know, look at this,
Speaker 3: and then you know, things happen. You know what causes it? Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, check out this ding dumb who does what
Speaker 3: causes these activities? But these things do happen.
Speaker 2: It is the kind of thing that it has to
Speaker 2: be like a deep seated compulsion for people to do
Speaker 2: it at all, because if they sat and thought about
Speaker 2: it rationally, that they wouldn't be out there doing it.
Speaker 5: But yeah, speaking of this is a nineteen eighty one movie,
Speaker 5: and I was actually surprised how much full frontal there's
Speaker 5: a lot in this. Yeah, it's uh, it really was it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I forgot this as an adult because I remember,
Speaker 3: you know a number My son's eighteen now, but you know,
Speaker 3: almost almost eighteen. But when he was about seven or so,
Speaker 3: I was, you know, introducing him some films from my child,
Speaker 3: and I totally forgot how much full front was in
Speaker 3: the film Howard the Duck, And then I realized, I'm like,
Speaker 3: it's PG right, But I realized they didn't invent PG
Speaker 3: thirteen for a couple more years because there's a lot
Speaker 3: of full frontal on it. There's duck on there's women
Speaker 3: have banging ducks in that film. There's that's a really
Speaker 3: weird film, and it's of course it's a marvel story.
Speaker 5: Right best reality at its finest.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they got a lot of They got away
Speaker 3: with a lot of stuff in the early eighties. I
Speaker 3: feel like in some of these films, this one had
Speaker 3: some you know, more nudity than I thought was coming
Speaker 3: in it.
Speaker 5: But it is a horrible Yeah, me too, so right, Yeah,
Speaker 5: you always know somebody's gonna die if their penis or
Speaker 5: tits are out.
Speaker 3: That's I was offended by the cock shot early on
Speaker 3: in the film. I was offended by that there's no
Speaker 3: need to show the man's penis falling out of the building.
Speaker 2: That wasn't that. It was like a green screen thing
Speaker 2: and you could see the outline as he fell.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The whole scene is just really odd looking.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's definitely kind of low budge, I would say,
Speaker 5: but it's got a lot of aspects of like a
Speaker 5: classic eighties horror movie.
Speaker 3: Which and it's funny you say that it comes off
Speaker 3: with a budget, doesn't it.
Speaker 5: It does come off of a budge, it really does.
Speaker 5: That surprises me because, like I don't want to get
Speaker 5: ahead of ourselves here, but like the scenes where it
Speaker 5: shows the uh, the woman as a skeleton and you know,
Speaker 5: she's all it looks like something that you could get
Speaker 5: at Spirit Halloween.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: It just kind of.
Speaker 3: It looked worse than that that Minnesota my control assassin
Speaker 3: over the weekend, right than his master.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, but I will I don't want to get again,
Speaker 5: I don't want to get too far ahead into the
Speaker 5: movie or anything, but I will say I did enjoy
Speaker 5: it because I feel like it's a story. I think
Speaker 5: it's the predecessor actually to many horror movies that have
Speaker 5: the same outline. I don't know if it will be
Speaker 5: integral to anything John's gonna point out, but the idea
Speaker 5: of the vengeful spirit coming back and attacking the living
Speaker 5: and like taking them out one by one, it's repeated
Speaker 5: throughout a lot of horror movies. This might have been
Speaker 5: the first one that did that. I'm not sure. But
Speaker 5: have you you guys ever seen a horror movie called Shutter?
Speaker 5: It was originally a Japanese horror movie that was like americanized.
Speaker 2: It's God, I don't think I've ever seen it.
Speaker 5: Well, it's the same concept. I would say, like movies
Speaker 5: like Grudge, you know, where it's like the bad guys
Speaker 5: killed somebody and their ghost comes back and kills them
Speaker 5: off one by one kind of thing, which is what.
Speaker 3: We have here in Ghost Story.
Speaker 5: Huh right, Yeah, I do feel like it's an idea
Speaker 5: that's been kind of like, maybe they ripped it off
Speaker 5: of this movie because it's not as well known as
Speaker 5: some of the more popular ones, but sure it's older
Speaker 5: than them, so I'm thinking maybe they ripped it off
Speaker 5: of this movie.
Speaker 3: Because you bring up some good points and I don't
Speaker 3: want to cut you off there. But before we go
Speaker 3: any further, this is gonna be the number one Halloween
Speaker 3: costume of twenty twenty five, I imagine. But this was the
Speaker 3: the Vance Botler guy, right. He seemed like, speaking of
Speaker 3: horror stories, should just watch this guy's story of the weekend.
Speaker 3: That's a horror story right there, the sigh of they
Speaker 3: try to pass off on folks.
Speaker 5: I didn't get to dive too far into it, but
Speaker 5: I'm sure you've got a lot of thoughts on it.
Speaker 3: It's ridiculous, Yeah, I do you talk about some of
Speaker 3: their time. I just want to make the joke there
Speaker 3: because it's a fancy boatler. I think that name is ridiculous,
Speaker 3: and I think that mask is ridiculous, just as ridiculous
Speaker 3: as the horror mask you're talking about from Ghost Story,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So you know, as far
Speaker 3: as a low budget where the money went, I imagined
Speaker 3: it was all cocin hookers. But that's my opinion.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, didn't Poltergeist come out in the eighties
Speaker 5: or am I wrong?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Think think of all the freaking special effects they put
Speaker 5: into Poltergeist. You know, it just didn't seem like it
Speaker 5: was upper echelon type of.
Speaker 2: Make up.
Speaker 3: What's what I'm saying, you know, you got to you
Speaker 3: gotta look at the Fred Astare situation, and you know
Speaker 3: he's got a large large amount of money's probably deadic
Speaker 3: his you know, line his budget line item of cocon
Speaker 3: hoookers just for himself, right and I and I'm and
Speaker 3: on that note, before we go any further here on
Speaker 3: John's blogs, we will go over these characters, the folk,
Speaker 3: the actors in the film, because there's some interest in
Speaker 3: folks there. But yeah, Johnny, you were also recovering the
Speaker 3: mystery of the mcnuts. What's that's some more recent one
Speaker 3: of your since we last talk. That's your more the
Speaker 3: most recent one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. I was really interested in that story
Speaker 2: that I think we've talked a little bit about. Jesse
Speaker 2: Turner and other Yea or Mickey Rose, the name that
Speaker 2: Morey used to refer to. I don't know where the
Speaker 2: name came from. I don't know if that's the name
Speaker 2: that Turner used for himself, but he you know, he
Speaker 2: lived with the Process in New Orleans, and he recalled
Speaker 2: an incident where a fellow Process member was hung up
Speaker 2: it sounds like on a wall or something, but but
Speaker 2: tied up and bled to death. And the person who
Speaker 2: did it was this person he refers to as Adam McNutt,
Speaker 2: and Adam's wife apparently was named Karen, and uh, it's
Speaker 2: it's a gruesome Morey referred to this just very very
Speaker 2: briefly in the epilogue of the expanded edition of his.
Speaker 3: Book that yeah, I'm not hip. I'm not hip to
Speaker 3: this at all.
Speaker 5: But I'm not hip to this either.
Speaker 3: I'm very what years we talking here, this crucifixion situation.
Speaker 2: This was in the early seventies when when Turner lived
Speaker 2: with the Process in the French Quarter, they had a
Speaker 2: house there, and he said that he witnessed this murder
Speaker 2: and then the Adam and Karen, the mcnutts took the
Speaker 2: body away in a car. He never saw Karen again,
Speaker 2: but then he Jesse Turner evidently travels west with Adam
Speaker 2: after this is all over with and they go to
Speaker 2: try to set up headquarters for the Process in other areas.
Speaker 3: In the United States.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so it's in the files that we have.
Speaker 2: He doesn't really elaborate on the incident very much, but
Speaker 2: it is this is publicly available information now and I've
Speaker 2: searched and searched in Vain for any trace of Adam
Speaker 2: and Karen McNutt, So I'm guessing that those probably weren't
Speaker 2: their real names. But just the fact that the incident,
Speaker 2: you know, the way the incident is described is it
Speaker 2: seems pretty significant to me because I would guess that
Speaker 2: the process didn't do this on only one occasion. I
Speaker 2: think this probably happened a lot. We get some pretty
Speaker 2: spooky accounts of well you like Peter Straub wrote about
Speaker 2: a New Orleans incident in the novel Ghost Story, which
Speaker 2: didn't make it into the film unfortunately, but that that's
Speaker 2: part of what I cover in that substag.
Speaker 3: So what you know, and I'll kind of put a
Speaker 3: pin in that. But I am interested in your analysis
Speaker 3: because I didn't read the book, but I'm interested in
Speaker 3: your analysis and what was included in what was not
Speaker 3: included there. But it's interesting about the mcnuts I often
Speaker 3: look into that myself. Is after reading your article, it's
Speaker 3: the first I heard of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really It's one of those things that when
Speaker 2: when we got the files that it jumped out at me.
Speaker 2: But a lot all of the Mickey Rose slash Jesse
Speaker 2: Turner files are really interesting because he knew firsthand about
Speaker 2: this process stuff, and then later in New York he
Speaker 2: became friends with Michael Carr. But yeah, I would recommend
Speaker 2: everybody go and read the files at the people versus
Speaker 2: David Berklewitz dot com.
Speaker 3: And I'll get a link in their description for that too.
Speaker 3: So it's interesting you said that he knew about details
Speaker 3: of the cult. And again, that's what's most telling to
Speaker 3: me about tonight's movie review is Peter Strob when he
Speaker 3: wrote that book clearly new Detai tales of this could activity.
Speaker 3: I mean wrote that nineteen seventy eight, right, because which
Speaker 3: was arrested in August tenth or seventy seven, and Stroub
Speaker 3: publishes this in January first of seventy nine, so you know,
Speaker 3: less than eighteen months.
Speaker 2: That's right. And I think that's what's so important about
Speaker 2: the novel, And wasn't a lot of other Straub's work too,
Speaker 2: because there are references to this stuff sprinkled throughout virtually
Speaker 2: every book he ever wrote, you know, right up to
Speaker 2: the end. But he what's so important about it is
Speaker 2: it's an entirely separate confirmation that this cult activity actually happened.
Speaker 2: It's a totally separate confirmation of the existence of the
Speaker 2: Anker's Cult, because as far as we know, Stroud never
Speaker 2: had any contact with Maury Terry. And this novel was
Speaker 2: published long long before Maury wrote The Ultimate Evil. He
Speaker 2: was just putting his work together in a few newspaper
Speaker 2: articles at that time. So just as Maury was really
Speaker 2: getting into writing about this stuff in newspaper form, Stroud
Speaker 2: had already published an entire novel that just page after
Speaker 2: page references members of the cult, Westchester place names, other
Speaker 2: place names that were connected to the cult and its membership.
Speaker 2: It's really spooky because yes, Stroub clearly had a first
Speaker 2: hand source for all this stuff, and really I think
Speaker 2: the only question is who was his source. But it's
Speaker 2: it's very it's very disturbing when you when you start
Speaker 2: to you know, the references really pile up after a while.
Speaker 5: Do you think he was involved in Nicole himself?
Speaker 2: I want you know where. I think that there's at
Speaker 2: least one clue to where he might have found out
Speaker 2: about this. He dedicates the novel to a couple of
Speaker 2: different people. What are their names here? Valley shioh s
Speaker 2: h a Io and Gregorio Cahoone those were they? They
Speaker 2: weren't married at the time, but they married later. They're
Speaker 2: both psychotherapists, but they're both Tavistock already laying alumni. The
Speaker 2: fact that, yeah, the fact that he doesn't know, yeah,
Speaker 2: that seems to provide a clue as to where he
Speaker 2: might have obtained some of this information book though he's like,
Speaker 2: it feels that way, Unfortunately I can't.
Speaker 3: He dedicated this book to the Tavistock to.
Speaker 2: Two Tavistock alumni, yeah, Gregoria Cahoon and Valley Shio. And
Speaker 2: he named his daughter Emma. One of her middle names
Speaker 2: is Valley, So he apparently these folks were good enough
Speaker 2: friends with with him and his family that that he
Speaker 2: named his daughter after Valley Shio. So it gives you
Speaker 2: something to think about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you've located the epicenter of activity between Peters Strobe
Speaker 3: and the processed church cold activity via the town.
Speaker 5: No wonder if his books are full of shit?
Speaker 2: What? Well? I hated to find it out because I
Speaker 2: love his books. I mean, he there's no writer I
Speaker 2: love more than I mean. He was a brilliant storyteller,
Speaker 2: just an amazing writer. So I almost found it upsetting
Speaker 2: when I always knew there was something about ghost story
Speaker 2: because all these links just kind of pop up at you.
Speaker 2: But but to the extent that it is, especially in
Speaker 2: that book, it really does, once you sit down to
Speaker 2: think about it, it really is. It's disturbing.
Speaker 5: Well, there's no music I love more than the Laurel
Speaker 5: Canyon scene.
Speaker 2: It's the same way with that. It's just like so
Speaker 2: much of what you listen to and read you look
Speaker 2: at it and say, oh my god, all this stuff
Speaker 2: is connected to this, these horrible programs. But but yeah,
Speaker 2: the links, unfortunately, there.
Speaker 3: Are spot on. I got a couple. I got a
Speaker 3: couple of things on Gradually.
Speaker 5: I said, who doesn't love the Beatles? Their Tavistock.
Speaker 3: I wasn't gonna say the Beatles, but you were close
Speaker 3: because I was gonna say Rolling Stones. I got a
Speaker 3: couple of details on Deckford Tonight's tale that include these
Speaker 3: some of these bands like like the Stones, right, the
Speaker 3: Process and Stones, or the Processing and Beatles for that matter,
Speaker 3: or the British Invasion. What what really was that British invasion? Right?
Speaker 2: Right? Well? Yeah, yeah, particularly with the Beatles because that
Speaker 2: that was the one that that was their flagship group.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I agree because you got Jane Asher, who's
Speaker 3: Paul McCartney's girlfriend and her brother is confirmed member and
Speaker 3: owner of the in a good coffee shop there in
Speaker 3: the Mayfair district of London where the Beatles are convening,
Speaker 3: and John mutioco And it's funny because Peter Asher goes
Speaker 3: on to be a major Hollywood music producer involved in
Speaker 3: the Diddy scandal, just saying, and their cousin, their first
Speaker 3: cousin is I believe she's still alive there at the
Speaker 3: uh the processed Mothership and canob you she's a founder member.
Speaker 5: So do you feel like they put aspects of like
Speaker 5: the important aspects from the book into the movie because
Speaker 5: there I did have a few questions about one or
Speaker 5: two things I picked up on from the movie. But
Speaker 5: do you feel like they left some of it out?
Speaker 3: I think Madgie's interrojectal quick, Julie cau we put a
Speaker 3: pen in that real quick. That's one we'll get. We'll
Speaker 3: do the story here one second. I's want to close
Speaker 3: out these one more blog.
Speaker 5: Entry with John if you don't know, okay, sure, sure.
Speaker 3: So relative to this entry, John and I think that
Speaker 3: I think I found most intriguing, is my opinion. The
Speaker 3: first investigator into the process was Jim Garrison, the New
Speaker 3: Orleans District Attorney, based on his own you know, work
Speaker 3: and whatnot. When you're saying this, that stuff with the
Speaker 3: mcnut situation was popping off from the early seventies. He
Speaker 3: was running office in seventy three there in New Orleans.
Speaker 3: So I think that's an interesting time for him to
Speaker 3: look at around those activities in that, you know, relative
Speaker 3: to your McNutt mystery. You know, I think there is
Speaker 3: some other activities going on in New Ones that may
Speaker 3: in fact be uh, you know, interesting things to uncover.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there was a lot happening down there, and things
Speaker 2: were happening in Yonkers at the same time. A lot
Speaker 2: of children were disappearing.
Speaker 3: So yeah, very interesting. So the quick quick highlight of
Speaker 3: we can on these before we do the film review, John,
Speaker 3: the true scope of this understand, What what do you
Speaker 3: mean by the true scope?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's that's Walter Brown's mugshot or Ace Brown,
Speaker 2: the notorious Yonkers and he A lot of what we
Speaker 2: know about these other aspects of the case comes from
Speaker 2: Walter and he he knew all these other people, He
Speaker 2: knew Sue Conway and all these important uh uh you know,
Speaker 2: major figures in the Yonkers cult.
Speaker 3: And if I may, he also knew a lot of
Speaker 3: other folks, like he connects to the Dean Coral situation.
Speaker 3: But I'm not mistaken, right right, Julia, do you familiar
Speaker 3: with that? I'm not. Uh what's Coral? H Yeah? But
Speaker 3: what's the guy in between those two?
Speaker 5: Philip Pasky?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Norton maybe what's his name?
Speaker 5: Oh, you're talking about the guy with the peto island
Speaker 5: Norman Norman?
Speaker 3: Well yeah, so well, Norman's associates with I think Gaysey
Speaker 3: and Coral, if I'm.
Speaker 5: Not mistaken, and also John Norman.
Speaker 3: Yeah, look at in a minute, and I don't want
Speaker 3: to get too diverted, but this dude is connected to
Speaker 3: a lot of stuff, is he not? He was connected
Speaker 3: to a different pedo network.
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, yep. It was uh a network coming out
Speaker 5: of Dallas that they were all connected to.
Speaker 3: That moved to Chicago, right, because Norman moved to Dallas
Speaker 3: then goes He's like the next day he's got a
Speaker 3: whole new ten thousand note cards full of customers and
Speaker 3: clients in this Chicago.
Speaker 5: That is correct, Yep, that is correct.
Speaker 3: So I apologize there the distracted there, John, if you
Speaker 3: if you may continue on about your uh, you're a
Speaker 3: blog post. You're aboudyes, Brown, because he is a very
Speaker 3: important character.
Speaker 2: Is he not? Yeah, he was. He It was when
Speaker 2: Maury typed up what he called his flipper list when
Speaker 2: Yonkers had sort of uneasily reopened the case in the
Speaker 2: mid nineties. The people that Maury felt they needed to
Speaker 2: flip to get the case to a grand jury were well,
Speaker 2: Ace Brown was number one, Sue Conway was number two.
Speaker 2: She's my sort of pet suspect. I'm fascinated by her.
Speaker 2: I've done a lot of research on her. And then
Speaker 2: so many other people that were associated with the Yonkers
Speaker 2: cult even before the Process came into the picture, they
Speaker 2: were on that list too.
Speaker 3: And well, so this was you're saying, this was a
Speaker 3: you know, like a pre existing operation that the Process
Speaker 3: kind of co opted then.
Speaker 2: Right, right, Yeah, the Yonker's cult had been there for
Speaker 2: many years and they apparently, well, the Process started to
Speaker 2: call the shots in the late sixties or early seventies.
Speaker 2: And so by the early seventies when all these kids
Speaker 2: are starting to disappear, primarily from the Graham School and
Speaker 2: orphanage in Hastings, which is a a neighboring town. Uh,
Speaker 2: it's it's the process. Who's controlling the action by that time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they were if I if I'm here, you
Speaker 3: aprently they were after orphans.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they've from what John Carr told Paul Raine Eerie,
Speaker 2: they took a lot of children from the Gram School
Speaker 2: because they were orphans and they John's rationale for the
Speaker 2: cult doing that was that the kids wouldn't be missed.
Speaker 2: Nobody really tried to keep track of them, even the
Speaker 2: school didn't try to find out what had happened to
Speaker 2: the kids.
Speaker 5: Much like the Franklin scandal. Yeah, with the boys town.
Speaker 2: It's like that. Yeah, just convenient disappearances of kids that
Speaker 2: nobody really cares about it is trying to take care
Speaker 2: of it. It's it's really it's sad behavior.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, what's that? What's that?
Speaker 5: Julia I said they love orphanages.
Speaker 2: Yeah it's true.
Speaker 3: Oh well yeah, it's lack of accountability, right, one's paying attention.
Speaker 3: So I like that you've quote, you've highlighted this. So
Speaker 3: like this Brown said in December of nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 3: It's a direct quotation from Maury's files. Ace Brown said,
Speaker 3: I was told kids were buried there, referring to Untramer
Speaker 3: Park and Yonkers. And he's not the only person to
Speaker 3: say that, is he.
Speaker 2: That's right. Multiple witnesses or sources told police the same thing.
Speaker 2: Sue Conway said that too. She said she heard that
Speaker 2: kids were buried there. I would imagine she presided over
Speaker 2: at least some of those sacrifices and burials firsthand, because
Speaker 2: that's the kind of person she was.
Speaker 3: But yeah, Conway, yeah, yeah, And.
Speaker 2: Multiple sources told the police that same thing, that children
Speaker 2: had been sacrificed in rituals and then buried in the park.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 3: Interesting, And Sue Conway met in early demise, right, well, no,
Speaker 3: she oh that's the one that that's when they died
Speaker 3: of cancer. Always I always play a guessing game with you, John,
Speaker 3: Who's who's a lie?
Speaker 2: She was? Yeah, yeah, she Sue. She was apparently was
Speaker 2: very ill in the years leading up to her death.
Speaker 2: But she had she had lived really hard. You know,
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of drugs, a lot of alcohol.
Speaker 2: But she two thousand or early two, I forget what
Speaker 2: I think it was January of two thousand and uh. Yeah.
Speaker 2: She was something else, she really is. She's kind of
Speaker 2: a movie under herself.
Speaker 3: So let me ask you all this. This is John
Speaker 3: David David Norman, the the Deadler Fellow operation from Dallas
Speaker 3: to Chicago, who's a saysion with Phil Pasky, who worked
Speaker 3: for John Wayne Gacy and Ace Brown apparently ties into
Speaker 3: Norman from my understanding as well, and there and that
Speaker 3: they have links. And isn't it interesting that John Mnieri
Speaker 3: would know uh, would would be familiar with uh Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 3: and Dahmer and Gasey both had uh you know uh
Speaker 3: uh recruited their victims from the same gay club. What
Speaker 3: is this weird? You see these weird epicenters of act.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a lot of details. I understand a
Speaker 3: lot of Ann's couple what have you. But it seems
Speaker 3: like all these people know each other and I know
Speaker 3: what they say. We don't know each other, but it
Speaker 3: seems like all these.
Speaker 5: They're part of a network. I'm just telling John that
Speaker 5: before we got started today that all of these assholes
Speaker 5: are part of a network and there's multiple assailants they
Speaker 5: but all the crimes get blamed on one guy. He's
Speaker 5: like the scapegoat guy. But there are there are so
Speaker 5: many people who are getting away with it, and then
Speaker 5: their crimes just get attributed to Let's say one John
Speaker 5: Wayne Gase, you are one Dean Coral, one Jeffrey Dahmer.
Speaker 5: But there are several weirdo kid diddling, pedophilic, cannibalistic serial
Speaker 5: killers amongst us, and most of the time we don't
Speaker 5: even know who they are.
Speaker 3: You ain't kid, and Julia, you ain't kidding.
Speaker 2: Yep, It's true, and there has to be a network.
Speaker 2: It just doesn't make sense any other way.
Speaker 5: One hundred yeah, yeah, And you know.
Speaker 3: I feel like a network that may be like covered
Speaker 3: up under the auspices of national security.
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, because then the the ben Rose case, the
Speaker 2: CIA pleaded national security they we don't have to testify
Speaker 2: before this committee, so that was the.
Speaker 3: End of them, you know, And how is that any
Speaker 3: different than the current Epstein situation with matters of national security?
Speaker 3: Right right, right?
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh. I can't even tell you how much
Speaker 5: I love being on a panel with people who know
Speaker 5: what the fact they're talking about.
Speaker 3: Well, you're you know, you're always welcome here in operations
Speaker 3: GCD and John is as well. So I appreciate both
Speaker 3: your all time and and the folks of Innerwebs, and
Speaker 3: I got one more. We'll close out actually with the
Speaker 3: death Mask Murder if you don't mind, John will just
Speaker 3: jump into the ghost story right because you did this
Speaker 3: blog post, which is what motivated me to You brought it.
Speaker 3: You brought these things in my attention to be a
Speaker 3: conversation and this blog post, and it might have even
Speaker 3: me to put this panel together tonight and to watch
Speaker 3: the film. And I do appreciate you, sir, because I
Speaker 3: did enjoy the film. I didn't wasn't like again, it's
Speaker 3: not really my genre, so you know, I didn't expect
Speaker 3: you to enjoy it as much as I it.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because there are some things in there that
Speaker 2: that are important items from the book that did make
Speaker 2: it into the movie.
Speaker 3: There you go, let's start there, because I know Julia
Speaker 3: had those same questions for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, What did survive were the strangeness of the
Speaker 2: villain or the villain s who is played by Alice Kreese.
Speaker 2: I think she's the single best part of the movie
Speaker 2: because all the strange stuff that happens in the book,
Speaker 2: the really creepy stuff Alice Kreese transmits through her performance.
Speaker 2: I don't know if she ever actually read the book,
Speaker 2: but she's she's the thing in the in the film
Speaker 2: that is most like the novel, So she's her performance
Speaker 2: is really interesting.
Speaker 3: So that's interesting they would leave that out of the book.
Speaker 3: That's a great comment there. Appreciate that their costs. The
Speaker 3: fuzz One was another party who witnessed these activities, and
Speaker 3: that's right, another independent you know, recollection and accounts of
Speaker 3: these same uh, murderous and ritualistic activities of things being thanks,
Speaker 3: people being buried in around these parks.
Speaker 2: Right right, that's right, And I the testimony is really overwhelmed.
Speaker 2: I mean, something happened in Undermark Park. People were killed there,
Speaker 2: People died in that park, and the only thing that
Speaker 2: that stopped the investigation was the fact that the police
Speaker 2: and Yonkers evidently felt that an investigation would lead right
Speaker 2: back to their doorstep, and they were worried about their
Speaker 2: own skins, so they shut down the investigation.
Speaker 5: So it does remind me also of the Finders, because
Speaker 5: they were spotted numerous times in parks, taking kids, kids
Speaker 5: in vans, kids being transported god knows where.
Speaker 3: But also well, Julia, those are matters of national security.
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, the Finders well too. John's point about Alice
Speaker 5: Kreeg is that how you say her last name.
Speaker 2: I've heard it pronounce Creege, but then I've heard it
Speaker 2: Prereese various ways, so I'm never sure which one is.
Speaker 2: I just settled on one, but it may not be
Speaker 2: the correct one.
Speaker 5: She's awesome in this movie. I would agree with you.
Speaker 5: She's the creepiest aspect of the entire movie. She's She's
Speaker 5: actually in several horror movies. I think that's just her genre.
Speaker 5: She's most recently in a couple of Star Trek movies,
Speaker 5: I think. But so, she was super hot in this movie,
Speaker 5: proverbial hot eighties chick in this movie. But there was
Speaker 5: like this weird I don't know if it was like
Speaker 5: this in the book, but she almost seemed like a
Speaker 5: witch or something throughout the Yeah, And.
Speaker 2: That's what's so great about her performance, because it you
Speaker 2: get the now in the book, the character that she
Speaker 2: plays in the film, she's much more than just a
Speaker 2: person who has been reincarnated or whatever. She has a history,
Speaker 2: and she has it with these old men in the
Speaker 2: chatter society, and they never come right out and say
Speaker 2: that there's an additional history in the film, but just
Speaker 2: the subtlety of her performance gives you the impression that
Speaker 2: there's more history there. Like that scene where she's holding
Speaker 2: her head under the water in the back. It's just
Speaker 2: so weird. And that's so much like the character in
Speaker 2: the book, you know, just inexplicably odd and like to
Speaker 2: the point where the boyfriend is like his nerves are
Speaker 2: so shaky that he just he almost can't be in
Speaker 2: this room with her anymore.
Speaker 5: Yeah, gives you the creeps. And he said, like, you know,
Speaker 5: just touch her, even her skin feels cold. You know,
Speaker 5: there's just like this weird witch witchy thing yes about her.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so was.
Speaker 3: That not in the go ahead? Was that was that great?
Speaker 3: Go ahead?
Speaker 2: Oh? I was just gonna say that is she fortunately
Speaker 2: or unfortunately that character had a real life counterpart, And that.
Speaker 3: Was That's what I was gonna ask you.
Speaker 2: That's what's so spooky. And you find that there's a
Speaker 2: photo comparison of Sue from its two photos a decade apart.
Speaker 2: But you see in the latter photo of Sue with
Speaker 2: the long brown hair, I think you see a lot
Speaker 2: of Eva Galley, Alma Mobile and a mosstin in that
Speaker 2: photo of her and In fact, even in the book,
Speaker 2: physically that character, the description of her is obviously modeled
Speaker 2: on Sue Conway. I think Stroud must have met her
Speaker 2: at some point, but I can't confirm that. But he
Speaker 2: definitely saw photos over her and she was. She was
Speaker 2: the model for Eva almah Anna in the book and
Speaker 2: the film.
Speaker 3: Do you think the real right she?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the picture of her is there.
Speaker 5: I was just gonna say, do you think the real
Speaker 5: person to Conway? You think she's a witch? You think
Speaker 5: she's sent to some dark ship?
Speaker 2: She was? Yeah, she was.
Speaker 3: She was.
Speaker 2: There was a source who when Maury did an Unsolved
Speaker 2: Mystery segment about the Son of Sam back in the
Speaker 2: late eighties, a source called the Unsolved Mysteries UH hotline
Speaker 2: thereafter and referred to her as he said, I knew
Speaker 2: people who knew her. She literally was the high priestess
Speaker 2: of the cult. That's what they called her. So she Yeah,
Speaker 2: she was. She was actually into all that stuff, and
Speaker 2: she was serious about it.
Speaker 5: She I knew it, dude, I knew it. Just the
Speaker 5: way that they portrayed her in the movie. There was
Speaker 5: like some weird witchy thing about her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because there's like a mind control aspect too, right
Speaker 3: with the two right before, I don't want to go
Speaker 3: too far, and before we get to all the characters.
Speaker 3: There's a mind she's got some sort of spell over
Speaker 3: some some some hood rats, right, that's right, that's right,
Speaker 3: some hoodlums, you will.
Speaker 2: And there she is that that second photo, I believe
Speaker 2: you a lot of what's strange about that character in
Speaker 2: the book, in the film, you see in Sue's photo.
Speaker 2: There she she she really was something else. She was.
Speaker 2: She made an impression on a lot of people.
Speaker 3: I agree, the resemblance is uncanny from the film.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, she I think I think one of the
Speaker 2: things they did look for in the film when they
Speaker 2: were auditioning people for the role of Eva of Almah
Speaker 2: was somebody with that long, straight hair. Somehow that is
Speaker 2: into to the whole character. Uh. If you had had
Speaker 2: somebody with shorter hair or something, it wouldn't have worked
Speaker 2: for whatever reason. It's that kind of hair just goes
Speaker 2: with all the other aspects of the character for for
Speaker 2: whatever reason.
Speaker 5: I also film she has the eyes, like look at
Speaker 5: the eyes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I was gonna say it's and it's the
Speaker 3: same color eyes. I mean, they're the same kind of
Speaker 3: they have the same shape if you will.
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, Yeah, there's something about the eyes too. It's
Speaker 5: like they picked her because she could. She can almost
Speaker 5: put you in a trance just looking at her, you know.
Speaker 2: What I mean.
Speaker 3: I think she did, man, I think she did. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's intriguing. So let's do a quick since we're going
Speaker 3: over kind of the characters, let's go back and revisit
Speaker 3: the storyline we're dealing with here. Would you like to
Speaker 3: to explain to the synopsis? And and uh, you know,
Speaker 3: however you see it, they're they're gentleman. You like me
Speaker 3: to read it from the Wikipedia, the source of all
Speaker 3: information on the interwebs.
Speaker 2: Sure, I can, I can snap size it just briefly. Sure.
Speaker 2: In the novel, it's a fictional, allegedly fictional town called Milburn.
Speaker 2: It's supposed to be in upstate New York. In the film,
Speaker 2: if if I remember correctly, they don't actually name the city,
Speaker 2: but it was filmed in Vermont somewhere.
Speaker 3: What I believe is from from my understanding, what's like
Speaker 3: one of the locations, one of them.
Speaker 2: And there was a real town square that they used.
Speaker 2: But a lot of the backgrounds you see are just
Speaker 2: like really elaborate matte paintings, which is another thing that
Speaker 2: I really like about the movie, really really beautiful backgrounds.
Speaker 2: I forget who the painter was, and I'm sorry about
Speaker 2: that because he deserves a lot of credit. But uh,
Speaker 2: the the town is it's supposed to be like a
Speaker 2: little sleepy small town, you know. And there there's a
Speaker 2: group of older men, affluent men. A couple of attorneys.
Speaker 2: That's Sears James and Ricky Hawthorne. There's a doctor or
Speaker 2: is he I think he's he's thinking about retirement, but
Speaker 2: he's he's technically still in business. That's doctor John Jeffrey.
Speaker 2: And there's the mayor of the town. And this is
Speaker 2: slightly different because in the book there were five characters
Speaker 2: and in the film there are four characters. So they
Speaker 2: rolled two of the characters into one another. And the
Speaker 2: mayor is that's Douglas Fairbanks character. He's he's ned right,
Speaker 2: that's uh uh, and and I believe he's he's the
Speaker 2: first one to go in the film. But these men
Speaker 2: all share ghost stories with each other. They get together
Speaker 2: in formal eveningwear one Friday night out of every month,
Speaker 2: and they they tell each other ghost stories. But they're
Speaker 2: doing this to cover the real story that they're actually
Speaker 2: afraid of and that they're afraid to talk about with
Speaker 2: each other. And that story unfolds gradually, you know, throughout
Speaker 2: the course of the film. But they they all share
Speaker 2: a terrible secret, something that happened to them all one
Speaker 2: evening when they were very young in the late nineteen twenties.
Speaker 2: And that's uh, that event comes back to haunt them
Speaker 2: and that's that's what the book and the film are about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like it's got an interesting dynamico. That's
Speaker 3: a good explanation, I sir, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: That's sure.
Speaker 3: That One of the things I found interesting was this
Speaker 3: this towing between reality. What is reality and what is
Speaker 3: not reality? Like what's hallucination? Right, and what's causing these
Speaker 3: dusts and what's not called Like is it an external
Speaker 3: force or is an internal force? In their nightmares of
Speaker 3: their heart attacks?
Speaker 2: Right right? Right?
Speaker 3: Tows that line pretty well.
Speaker 2: It does, it does, because that that's uh, I believe
Speaker 2: in In the book and the film, somebody sees the
Speaker 2: first casualty jumping off the bridge, so uh, and then
Speaker 2: another one later dies of a heart attack. So there
Speaker 2: are things that could be chalked up to just mental
Speaker 2: distress or physical illness, and nobody really suspects what's actually happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the film starts off. That's a good, good
Speaker 3: point there, And the film starts off with the first
Speaker 3: death we get there is the son of one of
Speaker 3: these characters, right, that's right, that's right, and we're forced
Speaker 3: to see his dick because he's falling out a building. Terrible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that's an odd.
Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting the full dick shot. I was kind
Speaker 3: of again angry that I was subjected to this, especially
Speaker 3: with that woman.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, that that is probably the weirdest shot
Speaker 2: in the whole movie, just because you're not expecting it.
Speaker 3: There's no reason, there's no point in it right in there,
Speaker 3: but yeah, yeah, it's pointless. And then they show the
Speaker 3: body flop. I'm like, well, did we have to do
Speaker 3: the flop too? Like the bounce?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it was one of those moments that
Speaker 2: they just wanted it to be a you know, a
Speaker 2: deliberate shock to the audience.
Speaker 3: You know, well that there you go and say, and
Speaker 3: it does too. It grasped your attention because of that
Speaker 3: that shock factor. For sure. It got me good and
Speaker 3: I'm like, wh mother fuckers, did you guys just show
Speaker 3: me a dick and a dude bouncing off the pavement?
Speaker 3: What's wrong with you? That was my immediate reaction. I
Speaker 3: was like, how processing of you folks to do that? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well that that definitely is the point in the
Speaker 2: movie where you know that really terrible things are going
Speaker 2: to happen throughout the rest of it. So yeah, it
Speaker 2: does have that.
Speaker 3: It does set the stage properly correct. Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 3: I'm now that'll be related the groundwork there on the
Speaker 3: plot line. I just want to I just want to
Speaker 3: ask you this one question before we go any further
Speaker 3: in the characters and whatnot and how this thing's unfold.
Speaker 3: There was a nineteen seventy four film also name Ghost Story.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, Storry Maryanne Faithful.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I'm not familiar with it.
Speaker 5: But is it the same story?
Speaker 3: No, it's not the same story, but it's interesting. There's
Speaker 3: some interesting aspects to it, not the least of which
Speaker 3: Marianne Faithful.
Speaker 5: She's process Yeah, she.
Speaker 3: And Mick Jagger both and all the growing stones. In fact,
Speaker 3: John and I discussed an interesting murder surrounding these these
Speaker 3: folks in Westchester County, you know that den of iniquity
Speaker 3: north of New York City. Last time we discussed this
Speaker 3: because we discussed the the and John will have more
Speaker 3: details for a Julia. Is that but it's the Keith
Speaker 3: Richards domestic wife or girlfriend related murder, right John.
Speaker 2: That's right? Yeah, Anita Pallenberg. Yeah, but all those folks
Speaker 2: they did the process that they were just like the
Speaker 2: father Church Scientology. They courted celebrities and uh uh you
Speaker 2: know the process. They went after the younger, hipper versions
Speaker 2: of celebrities that, you know, just just like the Scientology
Speaker 2: did you know, more established, you know, like yeah, room
Speaker 2: stars and stuff. But yeah, and Marianne Faithful in particular,
Speaker 2: I believe she she got pretty cozy with with the
Speaker 2: processed Church, I believe.
Speaker 5: Mmmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then Keith Richards's wife there murdered a fifteen I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: a gun went off when she was in bed naked
Speaker 3: with a fifteen year old, Is that right?
Speaker 2: That is correct? Yeah, he was in her bed and
Speaker 2: his name was Scott Cantrell and he she she got
Speaker 2: off for that whole thing very very easily. And I
Speaker 2: know that that the boys family were very upset about that.
Speaker 2: But it was a very strange incident for sure.
Speaker 5: Dude, a gun went off accidentally. Is that the story?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, she claims that he was he was playing
Speaker 2: Russian Roulette, that he was upset and suicidal, and that he,
Speaker 2: you know, just the gun went off and he shot himself.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't appear that the circumstances were ever examined
Speaker 2: too closely in court to me anyway.
Speaker 3: Sure. Wow, and this was nineteen eighty, seventy nine or
Speaker 3: eighty or something like that. Yeah, that's right, yep. So
Speaker 3: after after Burka, which so this is again this falls
Speaker 3: into the post son of Sam called activity in around
Speaker 3: that din An equity, Westchester County.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Sue. Do you think this secret society as they
Speaker 5: call it quote unquote in the book Slash movie is
Speaker 5: based on anything real because they call themselves the Chowder
Speaker 5: Society like.
Speaker 2: They just about that. Because there were there was a
Speaker 2: group of allegedly in the cult during the fifties and sixties.
Speaker 2: There were a lot of figures of that type involved
Speaker 2: in the cult. There were doctors and attorneys and judges,
Speaker 2: and so it could refer loosely to some of those individuals.
Speaker 2: We know the names of some of them. And when
Speaker 2: he was writing the Chowter Society yet it could have
Speaker 2: referred to some of those established community members. I think
Speaker 2: that's very likely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'll recognize one of those names, Julia Carlton gadget
Speaker 3: say you know that one?
Speaker 5: Now, who's this asshole?
Speaker 3: Oh? John, please let her know who Anthony Fauci's Ssydekick
Speaker 3: carl T. Gadgertik was relative to the Ankers Cold Yeah.
Speaker 2: He well, he he won a Nobel Prize for medicine,
Speaker 2: uh in nineteen seventy six, something like that. And he
Speaker 2: was born in Yonkers, but spent a lot of time
Speaker 2: outside there researching strange diseases in or was he on
Speaker 2: some of the Micronesian islands or someplace?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he brought yeah, Micronesia. He brought about fifty young
Speaker 3: boys back with him somewhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was very interested in boys. And when when
Speaker 2: the son of Sam case was reopened by Yonkers police department,
Speaker 2: Gadgetsick became he was a person of interest and then
Speaker 2: some and he eventually was convicted of child molestations, served
Speaker 2: a boy a year in prison, then got out, retreated
Speaker 2: to Europe and died over there. He he was a
Speaker 2: strange character in a horing to multiple sources, he was
Speaker 2: present for very specific cultic activities, including allegedly the the
Speaker 2: sacrifice of a child.
Speaker 5: So yeah, god, yeah, why does he look like the
Speaker 5: composite sketch of the Zodiac Killer.
Speaker 2: He was a creepy guy. And there's there's a film
Speaker 2: where they an interview film where they talked to him
Speaker 2: and he's he's very He just totally denied reality it,
Speaker 2: could not admit that he had done anything wrong. But
Speaker 2: he David Berkowitz was aware of doctor Gadgetsik because he
Speaker 2: was a He was a major figure in youngers there.
Speaker 5: And he Yeah.
Speaker 3: From nineteen seventy to nineteen ninety six, Carlton Gadgasik was
Speaker 3: the chief of the Laboratory of Central Nervous System Studies
Speaker 3: that n I n DS at the National Institutes of Health,
Speaker 3: working directly for none other than Tony Fauci.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, and they were probably boyfriends him And
Speaker 5: you can do it, that little fairy fuck. I hate Fauci,
Speaker 5: I swear.
Speaker 3: So you may know Carlton gad your sex nephew. He
Speaker 3: brought us the first season of Stranger Things.
Speaker 5: Ah, stop it and make up. Oh, come on, you guys.
Speaker 5: This guy's neph what'd you say is nephew?
Speaker 3: I believe if I'm not mistaken, this is his brother's son.
Speaker 5: Yes, Oh my god, come on.
Speaker 3: He was the chief chief writer and showrunner for season
Speaker 3: one of Stranger Things.
Speaker 5: Just saying, oh my god, probably just.
Speaker 3: A crazier thing. Yeah, totally a coincidence, Stranger Things. Indeed,
Speaker 3: the I'm sure is behind all of that. Oh, so
Speaker 3: to this stuff?
Speaker 5: Fucking god, do that?
Speaker 3: Just blow up your brain hole there, Julia.
Speaker 5: Both of you guys are blowing up my brain hole
Speaker 5: in here. I thought I knew something.
Speaker 3: That's well, you do know stuff. That's what I like
Speaker 3: to do here. We like to exchange ideas. You know,
Speaker 3: we all we all have a different piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 3: I feel like, not to make it sound creepy or nothing,
Speaker 3: but it is a It is a puzzle of sorts,
Speaker 3: right it is. I heard it in a song one time.
Speaker 3: I think it was the beginning of the show The
Speaker 3: World's a Puzzle. So I don't know why they called
Speaker 3: this ghost story, but they Yeah, I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 3: have the same you know, plot lines or nothing. But
Speaker 3: it is an interesting story. And again it's just weird
Speaker 3: to me. It seems very processing when you got Homegirl
Speaker 3: in there, merry, unfaithful and whatnot. But h onto the
Speaker 3: actual ghost story, and that is the Peter Strub version.
Speaker 3: So besides Peter, uh, let's start off with Peter Strub.
Speaker 3: So this dude writes this book again, Burke, of which
Speaker 3: is arrested in August tenth of eighteen seventy seven. He
Speaker 3: publishes the book on January first, of seventy nine, So
Speaker 3: let's call it. He did this obviously within that seventeen
Speaker 3: month span. But I mean, you know, you pointed out
Speaker 3: how he's got he dedicated to Tavistock folks. That's a
Speaker 3: good indication of how he may know these tales. But
Speaker 3: what else is interesting about Peter Stroke.
Speaker 2: Well, he ghost story in every book thereafter pretty much
Speaker 2: contains some reference to the Yonker's cult and its membership,
Speaker 2: all the way down to well they have mystery listed
Speaker 2: there in nineteen ninety. By that time, he was writing
Speaker 2: sort of like he had He wasn't writing harder novels
Speaker 2: any longer, but he was writing really really dark murder mysteries.
Speaker 2: And there's a minor character in mystery a police officer,
Speaker 2: and his name is Officer Spahoa. It's phonetically that's yeah,
Speaker 2: s p y c h A l l A. Now
Speaker 2: that's a very specific name because it's the name of
Speaker 2: a person who allegedly was at the planning meeting for
Speaker 2: Son of Sam in the spring of nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 2: His name was Lapho. It's a it's a Polish name,
Speaker 2: so it's hard to pronounce correctly. But this Peter Strub
Speaker 2: used it as a character name many years before Ron
Speaker 2: Spachala was ever mentioned in the press in any public
Speaker 2: mention of Ron'spachala that I can find. But Strub used
Speaker 2: the name as a deliberate clue, just to let his
Speaker 2: readers know that he had not forgotten about all this
Speaker 2: strange stuff and that maybe one day somebody would figure
Speaker 2: out this this puzzle. So yeah, that's.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well he's so Tavis.
Speaker 2: It does that way. It's a hard conclusion to escape,
Speaker 2: but it yeah.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, that's too specific. I'm sorry, is its
Speaker 5: way too it's too specific?
Speaker 2: Well, like I said, it's almost like finding a fingerprint.
Speaker 2: It's that definite, you know, it's hard to discount that.
Speaker 5: But yeah, John, what you need to start a podcast?
Speaker 3: Well, John, John's a wealth of information, isn't he.
Speaker 5: Julia, Yes, oh my god.
Speaker 2: Well strangely enough, and I'm glad we all find this
Speaker 2: so interesting, But I don't find a lot of interest
Speaker 2: in it within the community. It's just not one of
Speaker 2: those things that people seem to have caught onto.
Speaker 5: Really, I feel like this is one of the more
Speaker 5: interesting things.
Speaker 3: If I made that, if I met you. Guys are
Speaker 3: hitting on exactly why I'm doing these as occult esotic
Speaker 3: film reviews, because I think the one thing that the
Speaker 3: folks can understand is when they see a picture of
Speaker 3: these ideas and they can relate to a picture like
Speaker 3: it makes a lot more It makes a lot more
Speaker 3: sense to me when I see shit in a picture. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 3: that's just me. Yeah, that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: Julia, Are you special?
Speaker 3: As the pop ups? And I color them myself. Okay.
Speaker 5: I saw something on the Wikipedia page for the author though.
Speaker 5: I was going to ask John if he thought it
Speaker 5: was significant. Hang on, pull it back up.
Speaker 3: Please do stand by, police by. I don't even know
Speaker 3: what I was doing there. I was just cruising around
Speaker 3: my tabs. To be quite honest with.
Speaker 5: You, Well, it looks like the first book. This isn't
Speaker 5: what I was going to ask.
Speaker 3: But first, right.
Speaker 5: Is my namesake Julia nineteen seventy five. But that's besides
Speaker 5: the point. It looks like he did some work for
Speaker 5: or with HP Lovecraft.
Speaker 3: And Stephen King.
Speaker 5: Stephen King.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he and Stephen King wrote two novels together, The
Speaker 2: Talisman and Black House. Black House. That's one of the
Speaker 2: rare moments in Straub's career that I just didn't It
Speaker 2: wasn't very good. But the Talisman is really good, the
Speaker 2: first book. I really enjoyed that one. I think he
Speaker 2: edited maybe a volume of HP Lovecraft stories for the
Speaker 2: Library of America, and unfortunately a lot of that stuff
Speaker 2: has gone out of print. But that was a really
Speaker 2: a good series of books.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I wonder what's in the Talisman.
Speaker 2: Well, there's a character. In fact, the main villain in
Speaker 2: that book is named Morgan Slote, and the surname Slope
Speaker 2: comes from a roommate of John Carrs when he was
Speaker 2: in the Air Force. Uh So, yeah, there's just one
Speaker 2: clue after another in his books, and it's well, yeah.
Speaker 5: Isn't there a Laurel Kenyon asshole last name Slopeman changed
Speaker 5: it to do you know how I'm talking about j J.
Speaker 3: Are you referring to Jim Morrison's kindergarten classmate, Gail Slopeman,
Speaker 3: who would later marry Frank Zappa.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, and changed her last name. That's right, that's right,
Speaker 5: Gail Zappa formerly known Slopeman.
Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. She was.
Speaker 5: She was military, right her family.
Speaker 3: Sure for sure, that's why she was in kindergarten with Morrison.
Speaker 5: Yeah. No, that that obviously two connections in my mind,
Speaker 5: because I think that they sneak little stuff like that,
Speaker 5: and Gail Slopeman somebody wrote it in the comments.
Speaker 3: Yep, there you go, Thank you folks of the interwebs.
Speaker 3: So these are interesting aspects. So with regards to spy Challa, like,
Speaker 3: I mean, you got to be in the know on
Speaker 3: that one, right, you know, yeah, because that that my
Speaker 3: understanding is like like you were pointing out, is like
Speaker 3: that dude was like you know, you know, no one
Speaker 3: really knew that name, like that was one of the
Speaker 3: ones that minderstanding Mary kept close to the best, even
Speaker 3: right he did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Maury was right up to the end.
Speaker 2: He was trying to learn more about all these individuals
Speaker 2: because he knew they all fit into the larger picture.
Speaker 2: But Yell was he's really You read about his history
Speaker 2: and some of this stuff is just almost unimaginably awful.
Speaker 2: He's another one of these people. The reason all these
Speaker 2: people were there is that they hurt children. That that
Speaker 2: was the common thread, you know, because that that's ultimately
Speaker 2: what this cult was about. The Son of Sam attacks themselves.
Speaker 2: I feel we're just the visible tip of a very
Speaker 2: large iceberg. In the case, was was way more complex
Speaker 2: than just the handful of of shooting attacks that people
Speaker 2: know about.
Speaker 5: Wait till you read Program to Kill. You're gonna you're
Speaker 5: gonna go so far down the rabbit hole you're gonna
Speaker 5: be begging me and JJ to pull you back out.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's it's absolutely mind boggling. But I
Speaker 5: agree with you. I think children are a currency in
Speaker 5: these cults. They're traded and they are used for blackmail,
Speaker 5: among other things, sacrificial.
Speaker 3: Well, there you go. You know, you hit it right there,
Speaker 3: the way I look at it, the way I look
Speaker 3: at the epicenter my apologize and mean to cut you off.
Speaker 5: Julie, No, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3: I look at the epicenter of the activity of these
Speaker 3: spooky blackmail operations, and you know, I've read enough cruelly
Speaker 3: and I'll be going that on unpacking my Satanic Panic series.
Speaker 3: Literally again, I'm not trying to inform my own opinions, thoughts,
Speaker 3: or ideas against their judgmental on all these people. I'm
Speaker 3: using their words to describe these things. And there's a
Speaker 3: lot of kid diddling stuff that comes out of what
Speaker 3: people would call a religion. If they're Theelamites that I
Speaker 3: think intersects with all this thing that they're calling blackmail operations.
Speaker 5: Well, you should talk to William Ramsey about the West
Speaker 5: Memphis three too, because that came out of the Satanic
Speaker 5: Panic and that was all weird Crowley worshiping stuff.
Speaker 3: So I mean, and I'll be using that as an
Speaker 3: example of my series, but I'm actually gonna be going
Speaker 3: over the cases and comp comparing the Satanic Panic around
Speaker 3: these major events, but using cases emphasized this is a
Speaker 3: greater deal, just like John's doing here in the son
Speaker 3: A Sam series. There's a greater number of cases that
Speaker 3: are not being depicted in the conversation because this is
Speaker 3: a larger pattern of behavior the cult activity.
Speaker 5: M hmm, well, I mean even in this movie. I
Speaker 5: think they reference in the movie, uh something about occultism
Speaker 5: several times or like cult activity several times they do.
Speaker 3: And on that note is is this is this an
Speaker 3: accurate statement that we hear from the chat? I appreciate
Speaker 3: this statement. There, Wallhead Rex so car was O T
Speaker 3: O O t O Roade Strub's attorney, and Strub edited
Speaker 3: out the OTO reference.
Speaker 2: Strup did, in fact edit out a reference to the
Speaker 2: OTO in the original hardcover version. That's right, No, she.
Speaker 3: That that's a fucking barn burner, right there, folks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he changes the name of the group to the XXX,
Speaker 2: which has a convoluted Latin it means something in Latin.
Speaker 2: But he changed the name in the paperback to the XXX.
Speaker 2: But he also rolls into that multiple references to the
Speaker 2: Processed Church. In fact, that the villainous who is she
Speaker 2: keeps coming back with the initials a M. Those are
Speaker 2: just the initials of Marianna Grimston reversed. So there's a
Speaker 2: lot of cult references in their conscious references. But yes,
Speaker 2: that's true.
Speaker 3: Blown up a brainhole, John, You're blowing up a brain.
Speaker 2: Hole reference in in the in the original edition of
Speaker 2: the book.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and to the person who left that comment, uh, Wayheadrex,
Speaker 5: is that how wyhead Rex? Who the fuck are you?
Speaker 5: Why do you know so much? That was awesome. I
Speaker 5: mean John obviously was gonna say, but still, that was awesome.
Speaker 3: I didn't. Yeah, that's great stuff. I didn't know that
Speaker 3: at all. That's that's as I mean, it's an interesting
Speaker 3: aspect to understand when you you see the folks that
Speaker 3: get but hurt about their names appearing stuff. I had
Speaker 3: referenced earlier that creepy fellow Michae Lookino email and Dave
Speaker 3: McGowan saying how dare you and McGowan basically just laughing
Speaker 3: them off with.
Speaker 5: Facts, Yeah, with facts, literal facts like hello.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really glad that people are coming about the
Speaker 2: things because this is a discussion that people have so seldom.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's this stuff is almost never talked about,
Speaker 2: especially in relation to the fictional references to real life
Speaker 2: people and events. I just, well, like I said earlier,
Speaker 2: it's it's so obviously a separate confirmation that the Yonkers
Speaker 2: case actually did happen, that this cult existed, but people
Speaker 2: within the community just aren't. They're not interested in it really,
Speaker 2: at least not in my experience, because I try to
Speaker 2: generate this conversation over and over again, and it's just
Speaker 2: not really something that people appear to be interested in.
Speaker 2: It's it's just not on their radar for whatever reason.
Speaker 5: Well, I found John, I'll give you my and I
Speaker 5: don't want a tangent or anything. But I just talked
Speaker 5: about this on a podcast recently, and you might agree
Speaker 5: or disagree, but I find it interesting the willingness of
Speaker 5: people to listen to podcasts but not to read anything.
Speaker 5: They don't want to read a book, they don't want to,
Speaker 5: they don't want to look up information they don't They
Speaker 5: want it to either be a Google away or in
Speaker 5: like some kind of a TikTok video or a podcast
Speaker 5: that they don't really have to like divulge too much
Speaker 5: of their attention.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, it's sad.
Speaker 5: It is sad, But I think that's why it's so cool,
Speaker 5: like when we can talk about it in podcast form,
Speaker 5: Because obviously I love to read. I don't have any
Speaker 5: problems sitting down and reading The Ultimate Evil or Program
Speaker 5: to Kill Strange Things from the Canyon. I have no
Speaker 5: problem doing that. The thing for me is I didn't
Speaker 5: want to make it digestible so I can take it
Speaker 5: onto a podcast platform and talk to people about it
Speaker 5: and get them interested in it who would have otherwise
Speaker 5: never read the book or taken the time to read
Speaker 5: the book. So I think, you know, book reading in
Speaker 5: itself is kind of like this dying art form is like,
Speaker 5: oh what you read? You don't just listen to Joe
Speaker 5: Rogan and like download useless information, you know what I mean?
Speaker 5: So slight.
Speaker 3: I like your approach though. That's a pretty solid approaching
Speaker 3: out there. What you're saying, you're reading books and then
Speaker 3: trying to you know, instead of realizing folks don't read books,
Speaker 3: and then you try to digest that into a format.
Speaker 3: Then I did digestible podcast podcast.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, that's I mean, that's what I like to
Speaker 5: do on my show. That's why I think John would
Speaker 5: be successful at it, because it's obviously something that's very interesting,
Speaker 5: but people just don't want to read. Isn't that sad?
Speaker 5: People don't know one I want to take the time.
Speaker 2: Well, on my substect that's what I try to give
Speaker 2: it to people, Like, like you're talking about indigestible form,
Speaker 2: you know, you give them just a few paragraphs and
Speaker 2: hopefully it's not so complicated that it overwhelms them, but
Speaker 2: it gives them enough to think about and maybe that'll
Speaker 2: part their interest and then they'll go read a couple
Speaker 2: of books about it. But yeah, I felt like that
Speaker 2: was particularly important with Stroud because I kept asking people
Speaker 2: that they read the book and everybody said no, And
Speaker 2: I said, well, there's all this really bizarre stuff in
Speaker 2: it that relates directly to the case, and I just
Speaker 2: it was interesting to me anyways, so I started to
Speaker 2: dig deeper into it, and then it also correlated with it.
Speaker 2: I was really when I started doing research, I hated
Speaker 2: making phone calls to people. I just hated it because
Speaker 2: it made them feel weird and it made me feel weird.
Speaker 2: But I found that the more I did it, the
Speaker 2: more I found information from actual firsthand sources who corroborated
Speaker 2: the references to the cult that I found in Straub's work,
Speaker 2: to the point where this is one of the things
Speaker 2: that didn't make it into the film, unfortunately. But in
Speaker 2: the novel, the Alice Kreese character, this Eva Gali Alma
Speaker 2: Moblei character in one of her incarnations she appears in
Speaker 2: a stage play, and she's a big success, and everybody's
Speaker 2: fascinated with her, and they think, oh wow, she's destined
Speaker 2: to go on to be a star of the stage
Speaker 2: and she's going to do a lot of great things
Speaker 2: when her but she abruptly disappears. Well, for the longest time,
Speaker 2: I've been reading this book for thirty five thirty six years.
Speaker 2: I read it every Halloween. I had no idea that
Speaker 2: that referred to a real life event. Well, I started
Speaker 2: doing newspaper research on Susanne Conway. She appeared in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy five in a stage play, then left town very suddenly.
Speaker 2: At first, I only knew about the play. Then I
Speaker 2: spoke to one of her fellow cast members in upstate
Speaker 2: New York and he tells me, well, you know, and
Speaker 2: I didn't tell him any of this stuff about ghost story,
Speaker 2: any of the rest of it, But he said, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened to Sue, because not long
Speaker 2: after she was in the place, she just up and
Speaker 2: left town, and everybody wondered about her. Nobody knew what
Speaker 2: happened to her. So it's a reference to the end
Speaker 2: Veronica more story in the novel a direct reference. Uh So,
Speaker 2: the more research you do, the more you find out
Speaker 2: that all this stuff actually happened, and that so many
Speaker 2: of the events in the book make reference to real life.
Speaker 5: Events, real life shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great blog piece, Specs. You definitely
Speaker 3: check this out. Isn't be in the show notes for
Speaker 3: folks to check out.
Speaker 5: Joy doesn't Susan Conway remind you of Tuesday Weld a
Speaker 5: little bit?
Speaker 3: She plays a very similar role in the in this
Speaker 3: scene that I think is Tuesday Well plays overall and
Speaker 3: especially in the Hollywood scene.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they're both like priestess level. Yeah, you know
Speaker 5: what I'm saying. You gotta look into Tuesday Well if
Speaker 5: you haven't, John, because she's another rabbit hole that just
Speaker 5: never ends. But it's like the ones, the ones in
Speaker 5: these these who are actually the upper echelon, They actually
Speaker 5: get kind of shielded or hidden or occulted from mainstream view,
Speaker 5: which I.
Speaker 3: Come on, are you sing?
Speaker 5: Very interesting? What are you talking about?
Speaker 3: You mean to tell me people aren't how accountable for
Speaker 3: their activities? Is that around these these colts?
Speaker 5: Right? Yeah?
Speaker 3: What you mean is that what you want me to believe?
Speaker 5: I do want you.
Speaker 3: Now that is the pattern time and time again.
Speaker 5: Right mm so this this uh in the in the
Speaker 5: movie actually too. I wanted to get your thoughts on this.
Speaker 3: May I just make a point on your book booking
Speaker 3: on your statement there, Juliet, relative to national security on
Speaker 3: our left and relative to process church folks who walk
Speaker 3: on our right. Cocaine Bob here walked on trafficking charges
Speaker 3: in cocaine in nineteen eighty no time, and he walked
Speaker 3: on murder charges in nineteen eighty eight of the Roy
Speaker 3: Raidner her courtesy of Charles Manson's friend Ira Reyner, then
Speaker 3: LA district attorney and his co conspirator. There, Old Cocaine
Speaker 3: Bob was the medi Ian cartels number one dude in
Speaker 3: America's wife she just popped her husband six months prior
Speaker 3: to arrest with with with which Cocaine Bob was picked
Speaker 3: up for and was an unindicted co conspirator.
Speaker 5: But you know how many people know that you that's true?
Speaker 5: Like and like whoever's listening to this podcast right now,
Speaker 5: Well we.
Speaker 3: Gotta yeah say we got we got one hundred and
Speaker 3: seventy plus folks that are learning these things right now.
Speaker 3: So that's again, this is all right, definitely a barn burner.
Speaker 3: I appreciate. I just I got to bring in the
Speaker 3: cocaine Bob factor in my back. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that.
Speaker 3: He's an I never leave.
Speaker 5: You cut out for like a second.
Speaker 3: The uh so, Yeah, I mean I just think, you know, again,
Speaker 3: we're we're kind of drawing patterns of these activities and people.
Speaker 3: But you know, these people don't get held accountable, do they.
Speaker 2: No, No, they really don't. There was a handful of
Speaker 2: people in the case of Son of Sam who were
Speaker 2: members or affiliates of the cult who died in odd ways,
Speaker 2: you know, in the few years after Burkewitz's arrest. But
Speaker 2: the people hire up the ladder. Yeah, there very rarely
Speaker 2: are any consequences for them, unfortunately for sure.
Speaker 3: And I just want to highlight this before we move on.
Speaker 3: Peter Strobe, unless yell have anything else on Strobe, but
Speaker 3: he says he wrote ghost Story. The reason I chose
Speaker 3: to write scary books was because at the time there
Speaker 3: were only three horror novels and they'd been enormously successful,
Speaker 3: The Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby, and the other. And I just
Speaker 3: like to remind everyone Rosemary's Baby was a process outfit
Speaker 3: with Roman Planski cocaine Bob. He was on set every
Speaker 3: day despite being the head of Paramount and hiring Polansky
Speaker 3: to do that. And I like to put a note
Speaker 3: in there, penning Polanski there for a second, because he
Speaker 3: comes up here in Tonight's tale. But if you aren't
Speaker 3: have anything else on Peter Strubb, we can continue. But
Speaker 3: by all means, this guy's an interesting character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would I wish I knew more about him personally,
Speaker 2: because it's it's just so obvious that he had a
Speaker 2: first hand source, you know. Yeah, but it's the kind
Speaker 2: of thing that he was never going to talk about openly.
Speaker 2: I mean, he he talks about certain influence, you know,
Speaker 2: literary influence and stuff on Ghost Story. He talks about
Speaker 2: you know, uh, Nathaniel Hawthorne and Henry James and all that.
Speaker 2: But but those are the obvious things. What's not so obvious? Hey?
Speaker 3: There you go? What do we don't know that we
Speaker 3: don't know that? We do they know that we don't know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just I wish I wish it was
Speaker 2: a wider discussion. I'd like to bring more people into it,
Speaker 2: you know, because somebody's going to know something about this somewhere.
Speaker 2: We just have to bring him into the circle and
Speaker 2: and get everybody to talk about it.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 5: To add on to your point really quick about this
Speaker 5: author and why I feel like it's significant is because
Speaker 5: someone that I comment on constantly that I actually have
Speaker 5: a poster right here, Stanley Kubrick. He put into his
Speaker 5: movies things that were not in the novels, right like
Speaker 5: the Shining Clockwork Orange Lolita, you know. And the guy
Speaker 5: who wrote a Clockwork Orange actually ripped off the idea
Speaker 5: from a conversation that Stanley Kubrick was having with someone,
Speaker 5: and then.
Speaker 3: He ended up directing.
Speaker 5: Yes. Yes, So Stanley Kubrick was at a party one
Speaker 5: night with a bunch of like weird German people like
Speaker 5: Warner von Braun and shit like that, and he was
Speaker 5: talking about the idea of a clockwork Orange. The guy
Speaker 5: who wrote the book was there, wrote the book and
Speaker 5: then had Stanley direct the film. But the reason I
Speaker 5: bring all this up.
Speaker 3: Ark, No, it's Anthony Burgess. Like you, He's also got
Speaker 3: a weird a lot of weird stuff in.
Speaker 5: His stories, right, Anthony Burgess. So why I bring that
Speaker 5: up is because Stanley Kubrick was supposed to direct the Exorcist,
Speaker 5: but he passed it up. He said he didn't want
Speaker 5: to do it, and so they got William Friedkin to
Speaker 5: do the Exorcist. But then because he passed up on
Speaker 5: the Exorcist, they asked him to do the Shining and
Speaker 5: he took it and flipped it and made it a
Speaker 5: cult and esoteric and it it is what we have today.
Speaker 5: But then look at the other book slash movie that's
Speaker 5: listed Rosemary's Baby, right Polanski, So this guy is talking
Speaker 5: about I wanted to write horror because I know how
Speaker 5: esoteric it is. Basically, right, we got like The Exorcist,
Speaker 5: Rosemary's Baby. I mean, Stanley Kubrick was doing all this
Speaker 5: shit too.
Speaker 3: I would all books.
Speaker 5: And making them, you know what I mean. It's like
Speaker 5: they're all kind of connected. They all know that they
Speaker 5: can slip stuff in there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I would argue it's them trying to
Speaker 3: basically a public initiation of some of the cold ideas. Because
Speaker 3: you mentioned freaking he ties into the gay club s
Speaker 3: and m scene with this tale relative to the Son
Speaker 3: of Sam story in the early eighties in New York City,
Speaker 3: that death mass story, the death mass story that John
Speaker 3: wrote about would be this environment here and Cruising. In fact,
Speaker 3: freakin knew the guy that was doing these.
Speaker 5: Murders, but see how they slipped that.
Speaker 3: Shit in Yeah, and freaking's it's I just friends with
Speaker 3: this guy who's a gay, gay S and M club
Speaker 3: serial killer. Don't worry about it, folks, don't worry about
Speaker 3: it and go cocaine Bible star his buddy Alvil stars
Speaker 3: the you know in the film about it, right, because
Speaker 3: these idiots are just telling that they're bragging about their
Speaker 3: Speaking of the Braggs we talked about earlier, John, they're
Speaker 3: just bragging about their ship in my opinion, but yeah,
Speaker 3: well I'm just the garbage candidates. Who am I to say?
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you And I hope this is not
Speaker 2: going to sound like Bragdon because it really isn't. But
Speaker 2: it's just such an inescapable connection I have to mention it.
Speaker 2: In reference to Cruising, the Los Angeles punk rock band
Speaker 2: The Germs, they did a couple of songs for the
Speaker 2: sound Actually they did about half an album's worth of
Speaker 2: stuff for the soundtrack of that film, but only one
Speaker 2: of the songs wound up being used. Uh, there is
Speaker 2: cult history there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: In in in Darby Crash's background.
Speaker 3: Thought came from that band.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no ship, Yeah, George Ruthenberg, Yeah, I don't. A
Speaker 2: good friend of mine knew Derby fairlywell. She was involved
Speaker 2: in that scene, and in fact she was Nicholas Shrek's
Speaker 2: first wife.
Speaker 3: That's right, you told me about that.
Speaker 2: But we were good, good friends. And uh, I learned
Speaker 2: a lot reading about Darby because he I believe he
Speaker 2: was almost certainly programmed. Uh And that's probably a story
Speaker 2: for another time, but but.
Speaker 3: He was a story from our time because I just
Speaker 3: put a pin in that there that' stuff. This is
Speaker 3: all very interesting, please continue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually there's a lot of strange history there. He
Speaker 2: very early on, when he was still in high school,
Speaker 2: he had people from scientology and est and all these
Speaker 2: organizations actively messing with the heads of the kids that
Speaker 2: attended that school. So yeah, that that's something we could
Speaker 2: talk about another for.
Speaker 3: Sure, dude, that we exercise into my speaking of weird
Speaker 3: McGowan's weird scenes inside the Canyon. I took the framework
Speaker 3: of his story, the salient characteristics and points that he
Speaker 3: identified theirs. That was the framework of that operation in
Speaker 3: Laurel Canyon. I applied that same framework to Seattle runs
Speaker 3: counterculture and it's the exact same fucking thing. And Pat's
Speaker 3: mirror is part of that counterculture. That's interesting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the Nirvana you know weird.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he came in there, Nirvana I love. Yeah, well yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's yeah, there's a lot of a lot of a
Speaker 3: lot of weird. Tana have been getting on with those topics.
Speaker 3: But back to the ghost story here, the tonight's topic
Speaker 3: you can hand which I do appreciate your folks time
Speaker 3: at the interwebs in of course John and Julia and
Speaker 3: your conversation. I'm learning a lot here, as I always
Speaker 3: do with both of you all in conversations and podcasts,
Speaker 3: So I do appreciate that. And I will only show
Speaker 3: this picture of Cocaine Bob six or seven more times,
Speaker 3: so I do want to get that out there. So
Speaker 3: ghost story, and I just want to add this, and
Speaker 3: I asked you all this question here too as well.
Speaker 3: If you were to pick a character from the film
Speaker 3: and sign them to one of these Muppet muppets, who
Speaker 3: which character would it be? In which muppet? Obviously we
Speaker 3: know that the female ones, that's the only one I'm
Speaker 3: talking about. The the creepy.
Speaker 2: Fellas right, I'll I'll do. I'll say that doctor Jeffrey
Speaker 2: is the disheveled guy in the Chef's Hat Douglas character.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's my favorite one out of the bunch.
Speaker 3: He's my favorite one out of the bunch.
Speaker 5: Ricky is the teddy bear faced one. I think maybe
Speaker 5: Ricky is the chef's hat guy.
Speaker 3: I think Freda Staire's Kerman. I could see him, you know,
Speaker 3: cutting a rug.
Speaker 5: What's the last one's name?
Speaker 3: Well, it started out as Gonzo. He went through a
Speaker 3: couple of morphs, you know what I mean in the
Speaker 3: GCD Muppet Factory, so it didn't come out as Gonzo,
Speaker 3: but he started as Gonzo.
Speaker 5: No, but the guy, the last guy in the movie,
Speaker 5: the fat guy always.
Speaker 3: Sits in the chair. Yeah, that's a good question. So
Speaker 3: we got fred Astaire, right, and start these four old
Speaker 3: muppets that you all see there. I'm depicted in the
Speaker 3: My Muppets take take the Ghost Story Invasion. There, we
Speaker 3: got the cast of Fred Astaire, Ricky Hawthorne. Right, we
Speaker 3: got Melvin Douglas. Y'all just mentioned doctor John Jeffery. He's
Speaker 3: trying to out out JJ mee, that son of a
Speaker 3: bitch Douglas Fairbanks Junior Edward Charles Wanderley, and John Houseman
Speaker 3: sears James Okay.
Speaker 5: John Houseman is the teddy bear faced one, all right,
Speaker 5: fair enough?
Speaker 2: I think that's yeah.
Speaker 5: And then obviously Alice Krieg is Miss Piggy for sure.
Speaker 3: So when, uh, was there anything about the director or
Speaker 3: executive producer? I mean it's all a little bit about
Speaker 3: the executive producer, but the director, he didn't really do
Speaker 3: much of note or of colts or anything that's seemingly
Speaker 3: of significance, to be quite honest with you.
Speaker 2: Besides, yeah, I forget how he was assigned to this project.
Speaker 2: I know the screenwriter, uh, Lawrence and he had done
Speaker 2: the screenplay for Carrie, the film version of Carrie. Yeah,
Speaker 2: really really great job with that. Yeah. And you can
Speaker 2: tell that he read Ghost Story because quotes from the
Speaker 2: book pop up here and there, you know, throughout the film.
Speaker 2: So it's the book is so long and involved and
Speaker 2: has so many different characters and situations that you can
Speaker 2: see why they had to kind of fold some of
Speaker 2: them into each other and abbreviate some things. Sure for
Speaker 2: the movie.
Speaker 3: My only question with this guy, and you all may
Speaker 3: have the same kind of Julia maybe thinking the same
Speaker 3: thing as well, there with your processed church understandings. What
Speaker 3: was this dude doing in London in nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 3: Because I'd be curious to them be saying out in
Speaker 3: the Mayfair district that would that the plot was thick
Speaker 3: and if he's if he's linked with the process in
Speaker 3: the Mayfair district in sixty four, that's all I'm saying,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Yeah, back of that India
Speaker 3: Indica cafe along with the Beatles, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well he's the right age range, so it could yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, he'd been twenty four years old the time he'd
Speaker 3: been right in their wheelhouse of crew. I would imagine, yeah. Now,
Speaker 3: and I just say that because like he's doing stuff
Speaker 3: and broadcasting film Ember in BBC. Looks like in that timeframe,
Speaker 3: right see made for TV films over there and whatnot.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it says something about Christopher Walking in the eighties
Speaker 5: he made.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this this was his first movie. Yeah, this
Speaker 3: was his first movie in America and then Ghost Story
Speaker 3: was number two. But yeah, dogs of.
Speaker 5: JJ you cut out jj uh Oh he's froze, are
Speaker 5: you there? Yeah, you're back? You back?
Speaker 3: Yeah. He also would do raw deal with that shitty
Speaker 3: the shitty Belushi in Schwarzenegger.
Speaker 2: Yea, I remember that one.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, Christopher Walking is a whole nother podcast topic,
Speaker 5: especially his weirdness with.
Speaker 6: What's name Natalie Natalie would yeah, Natalie.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure. This is this is a this
Speaker 3: is a weird movie. This is weird. I'm reading this synopsis.
Speaker 3: This is a fucking weird movie. Dude.
Speaker 5: It looks like he has black face on.
Speaker 2: Based on the Angola mercenary situation.
Speaker 3: Like, why are they making this movie in the first place?
Speaker 3: What's the And then they say that they based it
Speaker 3: off of a phrase from William Shakespeare. I just feel
Speaker 3: like there's a lot more to this film too, Right.
Speaker 6: William Shakespeare looks like an interesting one, and I would
Speaker 6: wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that,
Speaker 6: you know, a lot of those mercenaries that wound up
Speaker 6: in Angola, they were trained at Jonestown, the same grounds there.
Speaker 3: Right, you know exactly what I'm talking about, stir This
Speaker 3: is the interesting details you're picking You're picking up what
Speaker 3: I'm what I'm talking about there, Johnny, You're a very
Speaker 3: smart man. You know exactly what I'm talking about. I've
Speaker 3: just been on that same note, on that same note
Speaker 3: that that creepy sygh op situation or whatever the hell
Speaker 3: it popped off in Minnesota over the weekend with those
Speaker 3: lawmakers up there getting marked in the middle of the night.
Speaker 3: That dude operates a security company out of the Congo.
Speaker 3: And that's the first thing I thought of when I
Speaker 3: read that detail, is what you just said there, John.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, things are still happening. I think we live
Speaker 2: in much more interesting times than people might generally think.
Speaker 2: You know, all the crazy stuff that happened in the
Speaker 2: sixties and seventies, we still we get our own versions
Speaker 2: of that even today.
Speaker 3: Oh, I tell you, I don't think that. I didn't
Speaker 3: realize John Irvan did this film. I love this film.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I've seen this one.
Speaker 5: I have not seen this one.
Speaker 3: To give you an abridged version, US Army Airborne Ranger
Speaker 3: raised an Appalachia Truman Gates migrates Chicago to become a
Speaker 3: police officer. That's Patrick Swayze. Oh, hal breaks Lucy starts
Speaker 3: battling with the mob, which is Ben Stiller was like
Speaker 3: the son of the Mob and in the of the Uh.
Speaker 3: I don't know whatever mob was in Chicago at the time.
Speaker 3: I think they were taling about. Remember but Liam Neeson
Speaker 3: comes in there and he gets murked spoil alert, and
Speaker 3: then that's his brother, and then the whole. Then everyone
Speaker 3: comes from Appalachia there in Kentucky to come Avenger's brother's
Speaker 3: murdered Chicago. They start murking folks in Chicago, Appleacha style.
Speaker 2: I like that.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I love Bill Paxton, but I will
Speaker 5: just say a lot of excitement, a lot of excitement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bill Paxman, you got Baldwin.
Speaker 5: Which bald is that?
Speaker 3: That's not no, it's the non bald When Baldwin, he'll
Speaker 3: recognize his face.
Speaker 5: I was like, go ahead, I was just gonna say
Speaker 5: if he was part of the Baldwins. I just learned
Speaker 5: something very interesting about them today that their bloodline includes
Speaker 5: all kinds of weird upper echelon, including like several presidents,
Speaker 5: Hillary Clinton and like some weird inbred.
Speaker 3: Like wait, wait, who was this? Who were we talking.
Speaker 5: About the Baldwin family.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm not surprised by any of this. This makes
Speaker 3: sense to right, but.
Speaker 5: I mean they were talking about it openly on this
Speaker 5: podcast thing and shit like bragging about it, like, oh yeah,
Speaker 5: we're related to you know, upper echelon and like these
Speaker 5: old in bread Fox that used to have klut palettes
Speaker 5: and stuff like that. And somebody wrote in the comment
Speaker 5: section Bill Paxton is dead. I know, and I'm really
Speaker 5: sad about that because I really loved Tim.
Speaker 3: Well now that I'm now that we're considering John Urbans
Speaker 3: works and he's more of an esoteric understanding here. I
Speaker 3: also love Bill Paxton, by the way, he's great actor.
Speaker 3: I see Joey Rosalini here is the name listed as
Speaker 3: this character that kills Liambnest in that story. And that's
Speaker 3: interesting because you know, Johnny Rosselli was the famous mobster
Speaker 3: out of Chicago associated with the JFK Biz and a
Speaker 3: lot of the other characters were discussing here within these
Speaker 3: this processing kind of element, right.
Speaker 5: Johnny Roselli was also tied up with Marilyn Monroe.
Speaker 3: Well, that's what I'm saying. His sidekick was Frank Sinatra,
Speaker 3: and Frank Sinatra and the entire rat pack. In my opinion,
Speaker 3: we're involved with the process, not just Mia Farrow's wife,
Speaker 3: not just Sammy Davis Junior. Right, the stars of who
Speaker 3: starred in Bob Cocaine, Evans and Roman Planski's cinematic shit
Speaker 3: show to Satanism Rosemary's Baby. But there's more connections, and
Speaker 3: I actually have those connections on deck here. But before
Speaker 3: we go any further from John Irvin, do you all
Speaker 3: have any more comments on him?
Speaker 5: No, I don't have anything to add.
Speaker 3: How about the executive producer, Bert Weissberd.
Speaker 5: Is he an asshole or not? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Again, he didn't really like these guys, didn't really seem
Speaker 3: to do a lot of significant stuff after this film.
Speaker 2: M Yeah, I just remember seeing his name in the
Speaker 2: credits of the movie. But I don't know anything about him.
Speaker 3: There's not much. Yeah, I couldn't find much about him either,
Speaker 3: to be quite honest with you, looks like the film.
Speaker 2: There was Sam Sheppard, which is interesting because he was
Speaker 2: he had a thing with Patty Smith for a little while.
Speaker 3: So well as you say that he started and that's
Speaker 3: Sam Shepherd and he starts with with Sissy SpaceX. So
Speaker 3: what do you got on Sam Shepherd?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was just he he had a brief affair
Speaker 2: with with Patty Smith and they they wrote a play
Speaker 2: about it, Cowboy Mouth. But they're both actually performed in
Speaker 2: course that's named after Bob Dylan lyric but yeah, mainly
Speaker 2: just his his association with Patti Smith.
Speaker 3: There, hear me if I'm wrong, One of these cult
Speaker 3: nicknames for Ronald Sisman was Sissy SpaceX.
Speaker 2: Right, that's right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: And Sissy SPACEK was a fore momb was she not?
Speaker 3: I believe she was, And I guess my my other quote,
Speaker 3: I let me let me rephrase that this would not
Speaker 3: be the only Ford model connected to the sun of
Speaker 3: same situation, right right right?
Speaker 2: That?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I believe that's where she starts off.
Speaker 2: Though.
Speaker 3: I was working for the Ford Modeling Agency, and if
Speaker 3: I can unfuck my ability to click links here and
Speaker 3: move my dubie out of the way, I'll let us
Speaker 3: know that for certain. But I'm pretty there were some
Speaker 3: there were some wasn't Wasn't there a Ford Modeling Agency connection?
Speaker 3: What am I thinking of, besides possibly her? What was
Speaker 3: going on there with that?
Speaker 1: There?
Speaker 2: I've heard something about that, but I'm I'm reaching back
Speaker 2: years to figure out what I heard about it, and
Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly what it was. But there was
Speaker 2: there was.
Speaker 3: Let's let's put a penn put it for a future
Speaker 3: one because well, future one is in two seconds from
Speaker 3: now after I read this, because in nineteen sixty under
Speaker 3: the stage name Rainbow, she recorded a single John You
Speaker 3: Went Too Far This Time, the lyrics of which Chida
Speaker 3: John Lennon and for his Yoko Owner his new album
Speaker 3: for two versions. So that's interesting. Basic worked as a
Speaker 3: photographic model represented by four models. There you go, Oh,
Speaker 3: there it is and is an extra Andy Warhol's right,
Speaker 3: So you have more connections with the Velvet Underground. Uh,
Speaker 3: allegedly linked to this through folks like Lou Reid. Right,
Speaker 3: Lou was Mabel Thorpe Smith, kind of that Velvet Underground
Speaker 3: Andy Warhol.
Speaker 2: Next, he knew Patty and he played with her on
Speaker 2: stage a couple of times.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure exactly how extensive Lou's involvement in this
Speaker 2: stuff was, but he must have known about it, because
Speaker 2: all these people were doing this stuff at that point.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're they're, they're They practiced at the Andy Warhol
Speaker 3: studio that was there, much like the Birds did Polkas
Speaker 3: the studio, right, Julia the the the Velvet Underground did
Speaker 3: Andy Warhol studio. So we see the more comparisons.
Speaker 2: Did you.
Speaker 5: Watch men? In Black, the Third Men in Black movie with.
Speaker 3: With Josh Brolin, with Josh Yeah.
Speaker 5: Do you remember how they said Andy Warhol was a
Speaker 5: CIA agent and all the models were, Yeah, they were extraterrestrials,
Speaker 5: which I know, but I do think they were making
Speaker 5: a reference to Andy Warhol being c I A for sure.
Speaker 3: I don't want to do Yeah, I don't want to
Speaker 3: derail this too much because you just brought in a
Speaker 3: connection with his stepmother back to all these these characters
Speaker 3: that brought barbart streisand however, and that was with her
Speaker 3: with Warren Batty, the Young Turk. So there's a lot
Speaker 3: of these connections with these with these people. Right. So well,
Speaker 3: we've I think we just put a pen at least
Speaker 3: in my brain hole for a future couple of conversations here.
Speaker 3: But if we go back to John Irvin and we
Speaker 3: were doing the the next tup, I guess we're we're
Speaker 3: not talking about the the cast. Yeah, let's go to
Speaker 3: the cast. We got obviously the most notable cast member,
Speaker 3: Fred Astare. But you know, I don't know, I'd like
Speaker 3: to hear what your old's thoughts are. I don't know
Speaker 3: that I've really I could never really I've never heard
Speaker 3: a lot of creepy stories about us. There, I'm open
Speaker 3: to it. I couldn't really find anything too creepy about
Speaker 3: the guy, so again I'm open to it.
Speaker 2: But see, yeah, I've never heard he's he's I've never
Speaker 2: heard any particularly bad stories about it. The interesting thing
Speaker 2: about him for the role is that in the novel,
Speaker 2: Peter Straub says he describes Ricky Hawthorne as looking like
Speaker 2: Freda Staire, so presumably that's that's why he and Peter
Speaker 2: Straub himself said that that was one of his favorite
Speaker 2: things about the movie was that Freda Staire played the role.
Speaker 5: Wow, Okay, you know the main star is of this
Speaker 5: whole story is actually really just the author, Like he
Speaker 5: made this what it is, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, I think it's the story could have been
Speaker 2: told by somebody else, but but being told by him
Speaker 2: made it special.
Speaker 3: I think it did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's it's a really really great book and
Speaker 2: it's uh, I can't think of a single more brilliant
Speaker 2: author of popular fiction than Peter Stroud. But it just
Speaker 2: man to know that he was aware of a lot
Speaker 2: of this stuff is just uh, well, yeah, came out
Speaker 2: for a couple of years. Yeah, it was hard to
Speaker 2: to see it in a different life that way.
Speaker 3: But yeah, sure, Well I think one thing I thought
Speaker 3: was interesting with Hysteric, especially because I think it's good
Speaker 3: for all four of the main cast members. This is
Speaker 3: their last film, right, that's.
Speaker 2: True, Well except for John Houseman. Yeah, he did a
Speaker 2: couple more. Okay, he was the growth angry guy.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, and bring that up for you. I don't
Speaker 3: know why. I don't what happened to him here hold
Speaker 3: on stand By Police. Yeah, he's he's a pretty notable
Speaker 3: voice and face right in Hollywood and Housman over the
Speaker 3: years he was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did a lot of commercials and he didn't
Speaker 2: act until later in life. He was an acting coach
Speaker 2: for a long time. He worked at UH I think
Speaker 2: at Paramount. He was a good friend of Raven Chandler.
Speaker 2: But he didn't act until fairly late in life.
Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting, Paramount. You say.
Speaker 5: He died on Halloween.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 3: Let's see how I don't know enough about him to
Speaker 3: tell you how that went down, so essentially, well, I mean, sorry, eventually,
Speaker 3: we'll get down there.
Speaker 2: I think he looked pretty bad the last time I
Speaker 2: saw him.
Speaker 5: I can remember him, but yeah, oh yep, spinal cancer.
Speaker 2: See. I didn't know he was married to Zita Johan,
Speaker 2: but she was. She had a really odd mystical quality
Speaker 2: about her. She was in the Mummy with Boris Karloff.
Speaker 2: I had no idea that John Housman was married her,
Speaker 2: but she was interesting. Interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he appears with some scientologists as his last film
Speaker 3: looks like, yeah, yeah, Priscilla Presley and Orenthal James Simpson scientologists.
Speaker 2: God, he was the driver's ed instructor in that.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, well, me and JJ just did an episode
Speaker 5: on OJ Oh.
Speaker 3: Folks were loving that. Julia again, I have to thank
Speaker 3: you again for even suggesting that, because the folks have
Speaker 3: been enjoying that one. For sure.
Speaker 5: That was a real born I enjoyed myself. Actually, that
Speaker 5: was a really fun episode. I was gonna say, you know,
Speaker 5: just I don't know if it's the right time to
Speaker 5: bring it up or not, but you know what I thought,
Speaker 5: So maybe you guys. Obviously John's going to disagree because
Speaker 5: he read the book and he already knew what was
Speaker 5: going to happen. But JJ, didn't you think that they
Speaker 5: were all going to take turns? Rape? In her and
Speaker 5: then like accidentally kill her, or like knock her out
Speaker 5: and then or like hold a pillow over her face
Speaker 5: or something like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it is the eighties. It seemed like
Speaker 3: the rape the era of films.
Speaker 5: So I agree with you, but like, you know what
Speaker 5: I'm saying, there there's another I mean, like you couldn't.
Speaker 3: Make Porky's in this day and age, right, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean?
Speaker 5: It was very rapey, right, right, Well, it just it
Speaker 5: looked like all all of them had a crush on
Speaker 5: the main character, right, and they all wanted her, but
Speaker 5: she was only interested in one of them. So that
Speaker 5: scene at the end where they're all trying to take
Speaker 5: turns dancing with her, I was like, Oh, I know
Speaker 5: what's gonna happen. They're gonna take turns rape in her,
Speaker 5: They're gonna accidentally kill her, and that's gonna be why
Speaker 5: her ghost is coming back to get revenges because they
Speaker 5: raped her and killed her. Sure, she didn't go as
Speaker 5: sinister as what I thought it would.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know though, if I made just interject
Speaker 3: when they were dancing with her, I took that as
Speaker 3: them having sex with her. So you saw three of
Speaker 3: the four have sex with her in my opinion, because
Speaker 3: three of the four danced with her, right.
Speaker 5: But it didn't show them having sex with her, right.
Speaker 3: But I'm saying it was a metaphorical I think that
Speaker 3: to me, that was the metaphor that they were all
Speaker 3: hooking up with homegirl and they're passing around because they
Speaker 3: were all you know, it's like the song from the
Speaker 3: eighties with the Billy Idol dancing with myself. It's about masturbation,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, but there is another horror movie. That's why
Speaker 5: I say I feel like this book that got turned
Speaker 5: into a movie obviously was the predecessor for the idea
Speaker 5: of several several several future horror films. One of them
Speaker 5: is called Stir of Echoes. It actually has Kevin Bacon.
Speaker 5: It's one of my favorite horror movies.
Speaker 3: Kevin Bacon, ma'am the Kevin.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the Kevin Bacon. And it's basically, this girl gets
Speaker 5: raped by a bunch of dudes and they accidentally kill her,
Speaker 5: and they hide her body somewhere and she comes back
Speaker 5: as a ghost and haunts them all and is trying
Speaker 5: to kill her.
Speaker 2: That sounds very very ghost story in a novel, she's
Speaker 2: much more predatory. She gets drunk and she insists that
Speaker 2: they all drink and dance with and they're like starting
Speaker 2: to recoil from her, but she's being really vicious and awful,
Speaker 2: and she grabs Jeffery and says, kiss me a little
Speaker 2: toad and all that stuff that she says in the movie.
Speaker 2: And then one of them pushes her away, just like,
Speaker 2: you know, because they're all awkward and young, you know.
Speaker 2: And yeah, they start to be repulsed by her, and
Speaker 2: one of them pushes her away, not meaning to her,
Speaker 2: but that's when she hits her head.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that there in lies their curse of this lady,
Speaker 3: not the curse of Robert the dollmind you, which I
Speaker 3: you know, like a curse nonetheless, And and before if
Speaker 3: I may, before we go deep dive into the full
Speaker 3: storyline there and how these things unfold, if we could
Speaker 3: just finish off going over these four actors that comprise
Speaker 3: these roles. Here we mentioned Melvin Douglas. He's one of
Speaker 3: the he's the next guy. He's the doctor, right, he's
Speaker 3: the Jaffery guy. Yeah, what are your thoughts on why
Speaker 3: this guy was cast? Was there any specific reasons or
Speaker 3: anything else. He did that the Caltural's eyes.
Speaker 2: Uh, I'm guessing he was. He had been in The Changeling,
Speaker 2: another horror film, yeah, a year earlier, and that's they
Speaker 2: were probably thinking about the casting for that film. That's
Speaker 2: a really good one.
Speaker 5: Is the Is that the same Changeling that would that
Speaker 5: would later get remade with uh Angeline and jo.
Speaker 3: Lee I'm not sure, Oh that I don't know.
Speaker 5: Same name though, right, yeah, it's the same name. I'm
Speaker 5: just curious as to if it this was the original
Speaker 5: and the one that Angeline and Joelie did was a
Speaker 5: remake because the one that she's in was about child
Speaker 5: trafficking and program serial killers.
Speaker 3: That's this one, right, Yeah, it's a different plot line.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a straight haunted house movie.
Speaker 3: But it was written well, so Melvioln Douglason that that'll
Speaker 3: be an interesting one to check out. And then was
Speaker 3: was there anything else that jump out you with?
Speaker 5: The with old mill here, he's like a classically handsome
Speaker 5: guy for the era.
Speaker 3: Do you mean handsome.
Speaker 5: Handsome?
Speaker 3: No, you know what I mean, like Rock Hudson, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. He famously joined scientology of the
Speaker 3: same kind of era of acting, and you know, hide
Speaker 3: his homosexual activities.
Speaker 5: Right, you know that cod of down there's definitely some
Speaker 5: of the There's always going to.
Speaker 3: Be some of that, right right. He just kind of
Speaker 3: he struck me as a very rock huts and type
Speaker 3: of character, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: So the one thing I found most interesting about this
Speaker 3: guy is he did a film called Be There, Be
Speaker 3: There with Peter Sellers, famously of the Ciela Drive Manson Tate.
Speaker 3: Plansky processed church situation out there in Siella Drive that
Speaker 3: culminated the Manson family murders. Peter Sellers was the regular
Speaker 3: and so was the director of this film. That was
Speaker 3: Ruman Plansky's best friend, Jerry cool Zenski.
Speaker 5: So he's Besti's with all those fucks.
Speaker 3: Huh, Jerry Kazinsky. Right here you go. This was this
Speaker 3: was the best friend born and Paul and this is
Speaker 3: best friends of old Ruman Polanski. You know Rouman Plansky,
Speaker 3: friends with old Cocaine Bob Roman Plansk.
Speaker 5: Oh, here we go.
Speaker 2: I saw being there, but it was years and I
Speaker 2: would have been a little kid when I saw it.
Speaker 2: So I don't remember much about it, but I do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know much about either. I mean it
Speaker 3: says it's a satirical comedy drama, which is an odd
Speaker 3: phrasing of a genre of words in my opinion. So
Speaker 3: Peter Sellers, y'all know about him relative to the Manson
Speaker 3: situation in the process seeing out There and La in
Speaker 3: sixty nine sixties.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've read about it in Dave Mcowan's work.
Speaker 3: Well, there you go. What do you recall from that?
Speaker 3: Because he was very tight right with this is? This
Speaker 3: is Peter Sellers with Sharon Tate and Christmas is sixty eight.
Speaker 5: Yea, I somehow, maybe I'm fucking this up. But wasn't
Speaker 5: he also somehow friends with the Wonderland Avenue people too?
Speaker 3: Oh? That that would be interesting. I'm not sure that
Speaker 3: would be interesting though.
Speaker 5: Maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm remembering the whole scene. That's the whole scene now,
Speaker 3: I mean, that's those people were integrating the whole scene
Speaker 3: come the seventies, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Like he bought drugs from them or something. I don't know.
Speaker 3: That wouldn't I wouldn't be right, Yeah, I would say
Speaker 3: most people, now go ahead.
Speaker 5: I was just gonna say. Somebody put in the comments. Yeah,
Speaker 5: Peter Sellers was a cruel psychopath behind closed doors, much
Speaker 5: like how they describe Frank.
Speaker 3: Zappa among other same scene though, right these guys, right,
Speaker 3: I mean sailors, I mean sellers. So amongst these, uh,
Speaker 3: the various videos and pornographies, et cetera that we're allegedly
Speaker 3: filmed at Seela Drive, Sellers was deep in that mix,
Speaker 3: apparently along with folks like I mentioned before, Josh Brown,
Speaker 3: stepmother's old boyfriend, Warren Batty.
Speaker 5: Oh, Warren Baty, don't get me started on him.
Speaker 3: Best Buds Kissinger and cocaine Bob national Security never looks
Speaker 3: so sleazy. I like that. I like that phrasing. Todd
Speaker 3: Miller appreciate that. So yeah, I think it's odd you
Speaker 3: see this deep connection with all these kind of even
Speaker 3: within this film, right, you got these people that you know,
Speaker 3: you got Jerry because thence you in the orbit you
Speaker 3: got Peter Sellers in the orbit of of uh what's
Speaker 3: his name, Uh, Melvin Douglas.
Speaker 5: Well, it's kind of like guilt by association, right, Your
Speaker 5: friends circle is got it's weird, you know.
Speaker 2: The Beatles and Stones and Keith Richards living next to
Speaker 2: h John Phillips and yeah, yeah, m hmm.
Speaker 3: So the next the last guy we got here is
Speaker 3: the main the main four old dudes is Douglas Fairbanks Junior.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ned the mayor.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I got something interesting please. It says his first
Speaker 5: marriage was to actress Joan Crawford. Isn't she the one
Speaker 5: that beat her kids up and locked him in rooms
Speaker 5: and beat him with hangers and ship?
Speaker 2: Ship?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, you've never seen Mommy Dearest JJ. No, well
Speaker 5: you're fucking up, because that is an amazing movie and
Speaker 5: there's a lot of quotable lines from that movie. But yeah,
Speaker 5: she adopted two kids and then just beat the shit
Speaker 5: out of them their entire life, just beat the ship
Speaker 5: and she would handcuff them to the bed at night,
Speaker 5: all kinds of stuff. A psycho and I always.
Speaker 2: Thought she was one of the people that you could
Speaker 2: tell just looking at her that something was a little off,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, JJ, you need to watch that because
Speaker 5: I even put I even took something from this movie
Speaker 5: and I put it into my intro for my podcast
Speaker 5: because it's just so iconic. But anyways, yeah, she was
Speaker 5: horrible to her children who she adopted, and she was
Speaker 5: in the Have you ever seen a weird horror movie
Speaker 5: from back then called Baby Jane.
Speaker 3: I've actually heard of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever happened to Baby Jane?
Speaker 5: Whatever happened to Baby Jane?
Speaker 3: One of my fav're talking about.
Speaker 5: She's in it, And the first time I watched it,
Speaker 5: my mom was like, oh, do you know the true
Speaker 5: story about what she did to her kids? And then
Speaker 5: we hadammidarist after that. But yeah, Jill Crawford real fucked up.
Speaker 3: I'm definitely gonna be watching that. I appreciate that, thank you.
Speaker 5: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 3: So what else did her? So what these weren't This
Speaker 3: wasn't the dad of that right now?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 5: No, no, you talked about her kids?
Speaker 3: Yeah, her kids?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Okay, oh that's right. You just said that. You just
Speaker 3: said that.
Speaker 5: Well, that's what makes it worse is because like she
Speaker 5: hated kids, So why the fuck would you go and
Speaker 5: adopt two kids?
Speaker 2: I think that public image because she was seen as
Speaker 2: kind of a brittle, unpleasant sort of person, and they
Speaker 2: told her, you know, if you had some kids, it
Speaker 2: would improve.
Speaker 5: Your public image, right, and so she basically jj she
Speaker 5: would like John Banam and like dress them up in
Speaker 5: Christmas outfits and stuff, like parade them around like they
Speaker 5: were so happy, and you know, and the kids were
Speaker 5: just getting tied up at night and beat with hangars
Speaker 5: and all kinds of stuff. It's it's crazy, it's crazy.
Speaker 3: Word out huh yeah mmmm, worn outer kids. So this
Speaker 3: is what I found interesting about Fairbanks. During World War Two,
Speaker 3: he served as a commissioned officer in the US Navy
Speaker 3: and enter World War two and assigned a Lord Mountain
Speaker 3: Batten's commando staff in the United Kingdom.
Speaker 5: And he married a psychopath that beats her kids.
Speaker 3: Right, Oh, you'll like this one. Also, he was he
Speaker 3: was later implicated in the Profumo scandal.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, yeah, that's pretty much a direct connection to
Speaker 2: the process.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. I mean it's long been suspected that Marianda
Speaker 3: Grimston was one of the prostitutes in that scandal, but
Speaker 3: it's not been confirmed, but there is heavy suspicions of such. Yep.
Speaker 5: So he's the most interesting actor thus far, between him
Speaker 5: and Douglas my.
Speaker 3: Opinion, you know those two.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker 3: So we get back into the plotline of the film.
Speaker 3: As we said, these four old men, uh sensibly at
Speaker 3: least metaphorically speaking of the film, seemed to have raped
Speaker 3: this young woman and she John. As you mentioned, she
Speaker 3: falls down and and they think she's dead because she
Speaker 3: gets her head right, that's right. Yeah, this is the
Speaker 3: witchy woman that looks like Suzanne Conway, right, Alma right right,
Speaker 3: or or.
Speaker 2: Eva her name is at that time, right, And it's
Speaker 2: I hate to keep bringing this up, but it's just
Speaker 2: so there are so many points that there was a
Speaker 2: real Eva, and the character who appears later in the
Speaker 2: Who the Chatter society consults to see if he can
Speaker 2: solve their problems is done well, there were a real
Speaker 2: Don and Eva. In the book, they're called Don Wanderley
Speaker 2: and Eva Galley.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The real Don was Don Warner, the guy who directed
Speaker 2: the play that Suzanne Conway was in, and he had
Speaker 2: a wife named Eva. That's how specific Straub's references were.
Speaker 3: You ain't kidding, dude. That's that's like on the money,
Speaker 3: on the money.
Speaker 2: It really is. Yeah, yeah, and that's right, Marie, it
Speaker 2: was yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, dude. I mean at some point, like what,
Speaker 3: at what point in time did you consider like that
Speaker 3: Strawb obviously knew a lot about this, like how many
Speaker 3: details of these before you're like, wait a second, this
Speaker 3: is something's going on here.
Speaker 2: You know, it was maybe late twenty twenty. I was
Speaker 2: rereading it for Halloween, like I do every year most years,
Speaker 2: and it was I was sitting in my chair one
Speaker 2: night and he was talking about neighborhoods in different places
Speaker 2: in this fictional city of Melbourne, and because I had
Speaker 2: been doing research, I just realized that every place he's
Speaker 2: talking about is just a Yonker's reference, like all the
Speaker 2: street names. There's a minor character the book named Venudi.
Speaker 2: He's the pharmacist. It's a reference to Jovinudi, who is
Speaker 2: a political figure in Westchester in the forties and fifties.
Speaker 2: It's just just one reference after another. But it's the
Speaker 2: kind of thing that people aren't going to realize until
Speaker 2: they're doing, you know, extensive newspaper research, like often tedious,
Speaker 2: but that's how I go across all those names.
Speaker 3: Well, relative to that Wanderley guy you were just talking
Speaker 3: about there, it says you're in your blog post. In
Speaker 3: the book's prologue, a man named Don Wanderley has kidnapped
Speaker 3: a young orphan girl from a park in Melbourne. It's
Speaker 3: down in New York State. He drives her to Panama City,
Speaker 3: which is the location of where John car was station.
Speaker 2: It says, that's right, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 5: I just wanted to say this comment you got posted,
Speaker 5: Todd said, I learned everything about the Dutro scandal from
Speaker 5: Julia's show. Great work, Julia, just want to say that
Speaker 5: comment means the world to me because I worked tirelessly
Speaker 5: on that presentation for Program to Kill. I spent months
Speaker 5: pudding that presentation together. So thank you, Todd. And the
Speaker 5: stuff we're talking about today is no different. I mean
Speaker 5: all of this, this stuff, this the references he's making
Speaker 5: in this book, referencing real life stuff. They loved. It's
Speaker 5: like a sick joke to these people.
Speaker 2: They think that it really is. Yeah, they think it's funny.
Speaker 3: You'll laugh about it, right, Yeah. They think I covered
Speaker 3: all this in Dragnet. I didn't know. I'm sorry, go ahead, Julia.
Speaker 5: No, I was just gonna say. They think it's absolutely
Speaker 5: hysterical that we just watch movies and read books and
Speaker 5: you know, it's right in front of our face and
Speaker 5: we'll just never know, especially what John was talking about
Speaker 5: earlier with that guy's last name, Like, who else is
Speaker 5: going to put that together?
Speaker 3: Yes, Pacaula, Yeah, so I totally agree with you. I
Speaker 3: totally agree with you. So the I did a Nicolet
Speaker 3: esoteric review a number of weeks back on Dragnet. So
Speaker 3: folks to the interwebs or John or jolly of you
Speaker 3: folks want to check it out.
Speaker 5: Uh oh j Keith Frousin, Yeah, he'll probably be making
Speaker 5: a second yep.
Speaker 3: In my back, My back, my back, Yeah, you're back.
Speaker 3: It's a nineteen eighty seven cinematic masterpiece, Dragnet and Cult.
Speaker 3: An esoteric review where we go over the elements of
Speaker 3: the process being told there. And I'll just use to
Speaker 3: emphasize my point, I'll bring up one one character from
Speaker 3: the film and show you the murder of Roy Raidin. Right,
Speaker 3: So back to back to my favorite character here at
Speaker 3: Operation GCD, not Cocaine Bob Boy. He was the unindicted
Speaker 3: co conspirator in the murder of Roy Raiden, so the
Speaker 3: one of the co the convicted murders. And that the
Speaker 3: hitman that that he allegedly hired was a fellow by
Speaker 3: named William Menzer, the guy that as John will tell
Speaker 3: you what, Who's William Menszer? John? Help me out with that?
Speaker 2: He had along, he had a background. He apparently was
Speaker 2: pretty serious about his occultism.
Speaker 3: He was.
Speaker 2: He's been alleged to have been involved with Son of Sam,
Speaker 2: particularly the Christine Freud murder. He was supposed to have
Speaker 2: been on the scene there, if not the actual shooter.
Speaker 2: And he's well, he has a he's another one of
Speaker 2: these people. He's a movie into himself.
Speaker 3: That you ain't kidding.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was mentioned in Program to
Speaker 5: Kill as being like they linked him somehow to being
Speaker 5: an offshoot of like after the Manson family murders went down,
Speaker 5: there was the Common Club, yeah, and then this guy yeah,
Speaker 5: uh huh, all process offshoot kind of weirdos.
Speaker 3: So one of the other things he was notorious for
Speaker 3: was being the security guard and chauffeur of Larry Flint. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And in the nineteen eighty seven cinematic Masterpiece were introduced
Speaker 3: to jack O Hallahan's character Imo muzz He is the
Speaker 3: security guard and driver of the pornographer in the film,
Speaker 3: which is part a machination of what I would argue
Speaker 3: is Larry Flint and and uh Hugh Hefner. But he
Speaker 3: he's also a major figure in the cult that is
Speaker 3: Siege that has taken a siege of Los Angeles and
Speaker 3: co opted politicians, attorneys, police, police folks, including the commissioner. Right,
Speaker 3: And it's all run by a guy who's doing this.
Speaker 3: He's the head of the Christian organization in town fighting
Speaker 3: all this. He's the head of the Satanist organization, the
Speaker 3: pagan cult that has sieged it. And he's part of
Speaker 3: that cult. And Bill Mentzer just happened to be the
Speaker 3: driver and chauffeur of Larry Flint. And Bill Metzer just
Speaker 3: happens to look identical to Emmaus. So you tell me
Speaker 3: if they're if they're telling us a tale that one,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like.
Speaker 2: Somebody who wrote the stuff knew exactly what was happening,
Speaker 2: and they knew who the players.
Speaker 3: Were to speak. You see what I'm saying, how much
Speaker 3: you no, I agree to her, but you see how
Speaker 3: much these dudes look. I mean, they played the same role.
Speaker 5: Ash, come on, and they're playing like the same he's
Speaker 5: playing the real guy.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: And oh, haller hand don't look anything like like they had.
Speaker 3: This is all made up with the hair and the
Speaker 3: mustache they gave to him there So and it's interesting
Speaker 3: because this is what I like the joke when you
Speaker 3: this is what reminded me of this You all were
Speaker 3: talking about the bragging. So Bob Cocaine Evans went and
Speaker 3: saw the film Wag the Dog, right with Dustin Hoffman,
Speaker 3: and when he this is nineteen ninety seven, he walks
Speaker 3: out of the film and the uh, he's asked by
Speaker 3: you know, the premiere, He's asked by the paparazzi, you know,
Speaker 3: what do you think of the film, And in old
Speaker 3: Cocaine Bob Fantoausy replies, I thought I looked great on
Speaker 3: the big screen because Dustin Hoffman is playing a Hollywood
Speaker 3: producer who's doing a Bob Cocaine Evans character, right, yeah,
Speaker 3: and they're all every yeah, everything, And I would I
Speaker 3: would argue that they're that whole film is a satirical
Speaker 3: take of them bragging and laughing on these fella's relationship
Speaker 3: because de Niro hero was a man who Evans made
Speaker 3: his career. He made Hoffman's career. And de Niro plays
Speaker 3: a you know, not necessarily a national security council.
Speaker 5: In my froze my back, my back, so I didn't
Speaker 5: know if it was me or you. Yeah, you're you're back.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So Evans makes both de Niro in Hoffman's careers.
Speaker 3: Hoffmann's playing a ceturial take on I just think that
Speaker 3: de Niro is doing the kind of a cterial take
Speaker 3: on Henry Kissinger there. But nonetheless he walks out of
Speaker 3: the theater and says, I thought it looked great. So
Speaker 3: when this film came out in nineteen eighty seven, I
Speaker 3: often wonder if this fellow, who was not arrested until
Speaker 3: August of eighty eight, walked out of that same film
Speaker 3: and said, I thought I looked great on the big screen.
Speaker 2: I bet he did, you know, because they said too
Speaker 2: when he was when he was arrested, they found a
Speaker 2: copy of Maury's book and it had his parts underlining
Speaker 2: the book. And he told somebody that they in this
Speaker 2: book they described what I did as a perfect which
Speaker 2: wasn't actually true. But he he had that conscious vanity
Speaker 2: about himself that when he knew he was being written
Speaker 2: about or depicted in the movie, he was he knew
Speaker 2: about it, you know, he was, he was happy about it.
Speaker 5: Somebody had seen something in the commons here, hang on, is.
Speaker 3: It Kane b He was friends with the box fast Eddy.
Speaker 5: The one before that. He's somebody's talking about a movie
Speaker 5: that rolls of dan Aykroyd.
Speaker 3: But fast Eddie was the mina somma bitch I've ever
Speaker 3: met in my life. I think Kane's actually telling you
Speaker 3: now an actual story here. He used to work for
Speaker 3: a tourist trap restaurant in the eighties. Oh so, because
Speaker 3: Kane used to live in San Diego in the eighties.
Speaker 3: That's interesting, Kane, so he was friends with Bill, your
Speaker 3: old boss was friends with Bill Metzer. Huh, that's we
Speaker 3: got to talk about that for a fellow. Like I
Speaker 3: would like to hear some more of those tales that's
Speaker 3: gonna be, you know, I'd like just you know that
Speaker 3: whole era. I feel like San Diego is whatever, Los Angeles,
Speaker 3: whatever Cole takesot he was popping off in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3: It sounds like Kane had been seeing some of the
Speaker 3: ship in San Diego at the same time. Am I
Speaker 3: back my back?
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're good, You're good. I was just reading the
Speaker 5: comments over here.
Speaker 3: It looks like I don't know, Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 5: I was just gonna say, look like Headless is in
Speaker 5: the comments. People are on fire tonight. We got all
Speaker 5: kinds of stuff coming through. This is awesome.
Speaker 3: It's good stuff. I appreciate the folks of your webs
Speaker 3: and joined the show and commenting here on the on
Speaker 3: the chat, So where did we leave off? Before I
Speaker 3: went on a cocaine bob excursion, we.
Speaker 5: Were talking about how she basically they kill her.
Speaker 3: No, was that what we were talking about. Yeah, we
Speaker 3: were saying how it was similar. They were bragging about
Speaker 3: these stories, right, But no, they killed the woman on accident.
Speaker 3: And then the next thing we see, right is one
Speaker 3: of the character's sons falling out of a building was
Speaker 3: showing us as dick.
Speaker 2: And you don't realize at first that she's they get you.
Speaker 2: The woman he's with is the one that's the central figure.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: That's a good point too. I thought you meant you
Speaker 3: don't realize at first they're going to show you his
Speaker 3: dick because I didn't realize that.
Speaker 5: They show you plenty of of tit action too.
Speaker 3: And but from this, no, I had no idea dan
Speaker 3: Ackroyd bought Mama Cass's house. Get the fuck out of here.
Speaker 3: That's awesome stuff. Come on, because he already he's already
Speaker 3: he's already questionable enough. Starring Opposite Tuesday Well, the nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety five film starring Keanu Reeves and Courtney Love Feeling Minnesota.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that Dan he has a serious interest like
Speaker 2: in ghosts and UFOs and just the paranormal.
Speaker 3: Well, absolutely, John, and I cover that. You'll you'll enjoy
Speaker 3: this comparison. I cover that in that Dragonet film that he,
Speaker 3: you know, went into some of the Ghostbusters activities. I
Speaker 3: think he has raised a cult. Bookstore was based upon
Speaker 3: the Magic Child.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt it.
Speaker 5: And Mama Cass's House makes sense to me.
Speaker 3: Hey, look, if you start opposite, they will makes sense
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 5: That's like Jared leto buy and lookout Mountain Laboratory. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and he's doing some kind of cult.
Speaker 3: Activity that was originally Natalie Woods house. Holy Masicious, that's
Speaker 3: some great stuff.
Speaker 2: You got that.
Speaker 3: I didn't know that either.
Speaker 5: Holy Ship.
Speaker 3: Who is this? It's Masicious. That's not ship, It's totally Masicious.
Speaker 2: She has a lot of good information. I know her.
Speaker 2: She research.
Speaker 3: Thank you man. That's a that's some awesome stuff.
Speaker 5: Yeah, some awesome stuff.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Nicholas Roorck, who's that?
Speaker 2: Oh, the Russian painter, who's that mystical?
Speaker 5: Is he a weirdo child diddler, Cannibal little really just
Speaker 5: just sort.
Speaker 2: Of known as a painter of like mystical and occult subjects.
Speaker 2: Thank you made glad you're listening tonight.
Speaker 5: May I need to get you on my show. What
Speaker 5: the fuck? Geez? People in the comments are going, John,
Speaker 5: you brought the best audience tonight. Holy crap.
Speaker 3: That's not that?
Speaker 4: Is that is that?
Speaker 2: May? May?
Speaker 3: May Zech? Do I know this Maze? Is this one
Speaker 3: of your followers?
Speaker 2: Well, we're just fellow researchers and nice.
Speaker 3: It sounds like I need I need to know this person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's both interested in the same kinds of things.
Speaker 3: And I'm so glad I didn't know dan Aykroyd bout
Speaker 3: that fucking house. That's I mean, I don't a lot
Speaker 3: of these details.
Speaker 2: I didn't either. But it's so great that people are
Speaker 2: talking about this stuff because it really is. It's not.
Speaker 2: This aspect of it has not discussed a whole lot,
Speaker 2: I don't think, or maybe it is privately, but I've
Speaker 2: just never been able to engage a whole lot of
Speaker 2: people in the Son of Sam community in this.
Speaker 3: I'm hope to see the interest down. I hope to
Speaker 3: see the interests.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna have to put my email in if you could.
Speaker 5: I email JJ at the end of the show so
Speaker 5: people can reach send me an email reach out and
Speaker 5: I want to get may on my show. Only crack
Speaker 5: throwing out some crazy info like that, I need to
Speaker 5: know more.
Speaker 3: It's a real barn burner here, Julie. It's a real barn.
Speaker 5: Burner burning down the barn. Holy shit.
Speaker 3: So after we see the unsolicited dick pic of one
Speaker 3: of the main characters sons that jumps out of the
Speaker 3: building because he sees the ghost, right, the ghost comes
Speaker 3: on him. What's that about? Why is the ghost aunting
Speaker 3: the man's son.
Speaker 2: Well, he's one of the two sons of Ned, the
Speaker 2: mayor and the the guy that Eve I actually liked
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty nine or whatever it was. He's one
Speaker 2: of the two sons.
Speaker 3: He's uh, do you take it as being like Ricky right?
Speaker 3: Ned and Ricky right? Because the next thing we see
Speaker 3: is the father chasing after Ricky. He goes to see
Speaker 3: his dad for the funeral of his brother and tells
Speaker 3: his dad, Hey, I would sleeping with that lady too, right, yeah,
Speaker 3: he tells his dad, right, yeah.
Speaker 5: But do you take that kind of freaks out right
Speaker 5: lamb kind of thing, like the firstborn son, like, I'll
Speaker 5: get you and your firstborn son kind of thing.
Speaker 3: That's what I was thinking, kind of right, a little curse. Yeah, well,
Speaker 3: Robert the Dolls curse.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how they actually were thinking about it
Speaker 2: in in the film and in the book, Alma Till's
Speaker 2: done really specifically that, you know, when we get married,
Speaker 2: I want to go back and get married in the
Speaker 2: town where you grew up, and I want all your
Speaker 2: father and all of his friends and everybody in the
Speaker 2: town to be there, and I want them to see me.
Speaker 3: And then the next phrase she says is the phrase
Speaker 3: she repeats at the end, right, that she's gonna make
Speaker 3: them all kind of like she's gonna make them all pay.
Speaker 3: They're all gonna feel her or something like that.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. Yeah, it's revenge for what they did
Speaker 2: to her, albeit accidentally. Now it's funny because in the
Speaker 2: movie they really it's sort of inadvertently I think, turns
Speaker 2: the men and the chatter society into the villains because
Speaker 2: they just kill this woman who has no she's just
Speaker 2: a normal human being.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: In the book, there's already something wrong with Eva, and
Speaker 2: she already is this sort of inhuman other worldly figures,
Speaker 2: so that they they think that they have killed a
Speaker 2: human woman, but what they have actually done is just anger,
Speaker 2: a an other worldly sort of spirit being that just
Speaker 2: keeps coming back at them over and over at various
Speaker 2: points throughout their history. But she's even at the point
Speaker 2: where they kill her in the novel the first time
Speaker 2: as Eva, she already is not a human. She's something else,
Speaker 2: just occupying a human body, possessed. She's a manitute. She's
Speaker 2: an Indian's you're one of these shape shifting changeling things.
Speaker 5: I knew it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it becomes people or animals or whatever, but it's
Speaker 2: always in the disguise of a physical creature, but it's not.
Speaker 2: It's not actually a physical person or an animal at all.
Speaker 5: Right, She's like a siren. She's like a yeahs figure,
Speaker 5: yeah yeah, and can lure you in with like her
Speaker 5: good looks and stuff.
Speaker 3: But then she turns right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but think of it like JJ, like in the Shining,
Speaker 5: you know, when it's like a beautiful woman in the bathtub,
Speaker 5: and then he goes to kiss her and she turns
Speaker 5: into like some weird hag witch thing that's like laughing
Speaker 5: and cackling like that's Eva, Like she's like some kind
Speaker 5: of weird siren.
Speaker 3: Which we see that a lot. Though that same sequence
Speaker 3: you just described from The Shining, we see that same
Speaker 3: sequence play over here in this film as well, with
Speaker 3: this this witchy character, right, this this Eva Alma character.
Speaker 3: But it is it's that's the call of the siren,
Speaker 3: is what she's doing. When I think when she says,
Speaker 3: I will take you place you've never been, I will
Speaker 3: show you things that you've never seen, and I will
Speaker 3: see the life run out of you. She repeats that
Speaker 3: numerous times in the film.
Speaker 5: It's like a chance. It's like the priestess thing, you know,
Speaker 5: it's like a spell.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but she's learning these men in with especially Ricky.
Speaker 3: She lowers Ricky in with that statement, right, m.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And the our real life priestess, that
Speaker 2: is the the image she consciously affected. She she was
Speaker 2: like that Sue Conway, right, yeah, that was very much
Speaker 2: her her persona.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, that's I mean, you bring up some
Speaker 3: good points there. So then we see we see Ricky
Speaker 3: and is it Ricky Senior? Right, he falls off the
Speaker 3: bridge they're chasing Ricky Jr. Right, Well, yeah, but but yeah, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2: Sorry, falls off the bridge and he sees uh Almah's
Speaker 2: or Eva's figure. They're approaching him just as he's about
Speaker 2: to jump off.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And then and then and after that is
Speaker 3: when we start getting into the bending of reality, right,
Speaker 3: because when they go when fred Astaire goes to the house, right, well,
Speaker 3: that's is that the next scene, right, is that the
Speaker 3: next part.
Speaker 2: It's it's somewhere early in there. I forget exactly when
Speaker 2: he goes to it. Uh. Now, incredibly too that that
Speaker 2: whole house is a matte painting. It's not even a
Speaker 2: real hat. That's it's an amazing painting there. But that's uh.
Speaker 2: I wish I could remember the name of the guy
Speaker 2: that did those paintings.
Speaker 3: For the for the Yeah, I'll look that up here
Speaker 3: in a second. So we are just looking at the Oh,
Speaker 3: that's right, So doubting his father committed suicide. Don then
Speaker 3: the remaining three friends and tells them a ghost story, right,
Speaker 3: approaches the remaining three friends. So then that's when the
Speaker 3: son is trying to get into the club, right.
Speaker 2: Right, right, and he uh, they talk to each other
Speaker 2: because he's a horror author, and I think Riky or
Speaker 2: somebody suggests or not it's not Ricky. Maybe it's Sears
Speaker 2: who suggests well edward Son and knows about all this
Speaker 2: weird stuff, so maybe he could tell us something to
Speaker 2: sort of calm us down a little bit and keep
Speaker 2: our imaginations from running away with us. So they asked
Speaker 2: him to come to town, and he uh. He attends
Speaker 2: one of their meetings and yes, Sears is really grouchy
Speaker 2: and offers him a Cuban cigar. But then Don says
Speaker 2: something like, well, let me tell you a story, and
Speaker 2: maybe that'll be the price of my admission into the
Speaker 2: chatter society, which Sears really doesn't like for some reason,
Speaker 2: and he he blows up at him over that comment.
Speaker 2: But Sears is just kind of a cantanker's character like
Speaker 2: that in the book and in film too.
Speaker 3: Now you're that's spot on, that's what. And the next
Speaker 3: thing we see is them and he's recounting this story, right,
Speaker 3: But that's when we meet Alma, right, So that's when
Speaker 3: it started blurring the boring the reality situation, right right.
Speaker 2: Before Alma knew his brother who dies at the beginning
Speaker 2: of the movie, she knew Don and uh, she approaches
Speaker 2: him when he's teaching at some university in Florida somewhere.
Speaker 3: And I may put it in that statement because I
Speaker 3: got an interesting, little weird thing that I saw on
Speaker 3: that whole Florida thing. I'll bring us at the end,
Speaker 3: but please continue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well he he uh. He falls for her, and
Speaker 2: initially they're planning to get married, but she just gets
Speaker 2: weirder and weirder, and he has more of these strange
Speaker 2: experiences where her he he's it becomes impossible for him
Speaker 2: to ignore that something's wrong with her, and eventually, one
Speaker 2: day he tells her that he's breaking it off, you know, And.
Speaker 3: So she and this is all going on in the past.
Speaker 3: He's now retelling in the present based upon his brother
Speaker 3: already hooking up with this girl. Right, so it kind
Speaker 3: of it's suddenly the whole When I was watching, I
Speaker 3: was like, holy shit, did this stuff this all collapsed
Speaker 3: on me at once? Dude, I didn't see it coming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's one of those things that's very much
Speaker 2: like the book is it's different narratives woven into each other,
Speaker 2: different time periods, and yeah, it starts to get pretty
Speaker 2: complex at that point.
Speaker 3: Come, it comes at you real fast, because then you
Speaker 3: realize the opening sequence when he saw his brother falling
Speaker 3: out the building and the dick pic. The lady that
Speaker 3: he saw was this Alma ghosts. Yeah, I'm sorry's sleeping
Speaker 3: with Alma, but he sees the ghost of Eva in
Speaker 3: her and then falls out the window. And then you
Speaker 3: find out his father is doing the same. And then
Speaker 3: his brother's like, wait a second, I've been banging this
Speaker 3: broad for a while, guys.
Speaker 2: So time he talks to his brother, he's in a
Speaker 2: bar and he says, David, don't don't marry her, something's
Speaker 2: wrong with her, and yeah yeah.
Speaker 3: Thereafter yeah, wild ship man, wild Ship. Yeah, what was
Speaker 3: your taking all that? Julia?
Speaker 5: Well, I just wanted to note two things I thought
Speaker 5: were cool from this part of the movie. The fact
Speaker 5: that he knows Don knows that he has to quote
Speaker 5: unquote like blood his way into the cult. Right, He's
Speaker 5: gotta pay his dues. He's gotta tell this story to
Speaker 5: get into the Sea Great Society.
Speaker 3: Right when he says the series, he's like John House,
Speaker 3: He's like, hey, I want to get in, and there's
Speaker 3: John Sten is kind offended, and then he offers up
Speaker 3: his blood sacrifice.
Speaker 5: Right right, Yeah, so I felt like that was symbolic.
Speaker 5: And then when it shows him at the university talking
Speaker 5: to his class full of students, the only thing he's
Speaker 5: really talking about is is being seduced and someone seducing
Speaker 5: or him seducing someone else, or he's talking about like
Speaker 5: a short story, but it's all about seduction, and like
Speaker 5: the weird siren thing, you know, So it's it's weird weird.
Speaker 3: Tiren things are I'm spinning because I was You're making
Speaker 3: a great point, I want to comment, and I was
Speaker 3: also trying to actually it thumbs up and talk at
Speaker 3: the same time. Apparently I can't do all at once
Speaker 3: without spinning on myself. So that's a great point you.
Speaker 5: But yeah, no, those were two things that I took
Speaker 5: out of it. Also just a funny part from the
Speaker 5: beginning of the movie when the dad goes to pick
Speaker 5: up the sun from the train station. He's like, look
Speaker 5: at you. You look horrible, and he's wearing like a
Speaker 5: sweater vest in like a button Like if you saw
Speaker 5: somebody wearing that outfit, you'd be like, oh, he looks nice,
Speaker 5: where's he going? And the Dad's like, you look like shit, he.
Speaker 3: Wasn't dressed right. He was dressing you know, really you know,
Speaker 3: put together as far as style and whatnot goes. You
Speaker 3: wasn't doing flannel and headbands what I'm saying, you know.
Speaker 3: And again it kind of that was an interesting scene
Speaker 3: to me because it's like he didn't want to the
Speaker 3: son didn't want to go back there. He already knew that,
Speaker 3: he already knew the dynamic that they didn't know that
Speaker 3: he was banging his lady already. He didn't want to
Speaker 3: do that. His brother dies, there was a lot going
Speaker 3: on there, and then he gets there, his father's giving
Speaker 3: him heat, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: So well I did that. It was another testament as
Speaker 5: to the elitism of the family, because.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying, Like he's getting heat from his
Speaker 3: dad no matter what he does.
Speaker 5: Sweater vest looks like ship to the dad, Like what's
Speaker 5: the dad on?
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So it's like another testament as to these high
Speaker 5: elite Secret Society members and their kids, right dying mysteriously
Speaker 5: accidentally killing people in their past.
Speaker 3: And covering it up like total accident. Yeah, while we're
Speaker 3: on the topic, and you bring us some great points.
Speaker 3: While we're on the topic, was there anything important about
Speaker 3: the scenes that we see that are the actual scenes, right?
Speaker 3: And like not the obviously you've made all those correlations
Speaker 3: between Yonkers and the fictional town of Melbourne with the
Speaker 3: namesakes of roads and whatnot and people's But we see
Speaker 3: a couple interesting places like Saratoga Springs is one of
Speaker 3: the filming locations, right, What's Doctor Mont's another one. I
Speaker 3: believe this was the down I believe this is the
Speaker 3: downtown setting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe that's right. Yeah, I'm not sure if
Speaker 2: there was any particular reason that they chose those locations,
Speaker 2: but for the town square, it it looks and sounds
Speaker 2: a lot like the wheat Row of the book, the
Speaker 2: on Square of Melbourne in the novel. So that's uh,
Speaker 2: that's it's very close and tone to what what Straw
Speaker 2: described in the novel.
Speaker 3: How about during the Son of sam Era, was there
Speaker 3: any connections to the Kipps Bay area of Manhattan, Not
Speaker 3: to my knowledge.
Speaker 2: Although a lot of those members did sometimes go to
Speaker 2: hang out in the city, so it's possible that that
Speaker 2: there's some that one of them had a connection to
Speaker 2: to Kipps Bay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't as much I know about New York
Speaker 3: City when I used to hang out there all the time.
Speaker 3: I never I don't know anything about that region of Manhattan.
Speaker 3: I was, you know, I was normally found in mcsorley's,
Speaker 3: the oldest bar in Manhattan, with Sorley's Old Ale House,
Speaker 3: a bunch of old surly Irish dudentes. I highly recommend
Speaker 3: the place, great spot, but I don't know much about
Speaker 3: that region. However, mcsorley's is down there in that kind
Speaker 3: of Sun of Sam East Village, not far from some
Speaker 3: of that East Village stuff, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: And that was on the Sun of Sam that.
Speaker 2: That definitely was was an area that I think everybody
Speaker 2: when you go there you have at least one sort
Speaker 2: of strange experience. You walk past some place and you
Speaker 2: realize that it's a place that you've read about. You
Speaker 2: weren't consciously seeking it out, but there it is, and
Speaker 2: you realize you're standing next to it, and it just
Speaker 2: you know, because there's so many places like that in
Speaker 2: New York. But mine was the place where William Burrows
Speaker 2: used to live. I knew it was down there. That
Speaker 2: wasn't really what I was going to see, but all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, it's just right there, and you recognize
Speaker 2: the gate and the number over the door and everything,
Speaker 2: and of course Burrows that's a whole other connection to
Speaker 2: this stuff, you know, into the Magical Child and all
Speaker 2: of that scene.
Speaker 3: Well, well, John Sara, you just signed yourself up for
Speaker 3: another show here in Operation GCD, because it is William
Speaker 3: Burrows who institutes the smiley face as a chaos symbol
Speaker 3: into the Neo process movement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Burrows was, he was, he was something else.
Speaker 3: I as always absolute your refforts and all these things.
Speaker 3: I learned something new. I I did not know these
Speaker 3: these Boroughs connections. I do need to learn more Burroughs stuff.
Speaker 2: Clearly, it's spooky. He was involved in some and he admitted,
Speaker 2: you know, he said I had CIA acquaintances, which I
Speaker 2: think you're underplaying it a little bit. But at the
Speaker 2: very least, yeah, he heed.
Speaker 3: And a scientologist, John, and a scientologists that's.
Speaker 2: Right, that's right, very dedicated scientologist. And one we sure,
Speaker 2: and that's right DeLand, Florida. And you know, May another
Speaker 2: thing about DeLand is I believe that's where Burrow's son
Speaker 2: of Billy Jr. He died in DeLand, or somewhere just
Speaker 2: outside of the land. Strangely enough, just as we're we're
Speaker 2: talking about Burrows.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But Billy or Willie Junior, Yeah, guy.
Speaker 3: Die his number three, William number three dies March third,
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one, survey says DeLand, Florida. Yeah.
Speaker 2: He was a very good writer in his own right,
Speaker 2: and I to his credit, ultimately, I believe although it
Speaker 2: caused him a lot of pain in his life. He
Speaker 2: was not a part of his father's circle. He was
Speaker 2: very much outside that and was was frustrated and didn't
Speaker 2: understand all the the weird you know that that weird
Speaker 2: group of friends, and you know that his father had
Speaker 2: all the strange stuff that he was involved with. He
Speaker 2: I think a lot of that was was a mystery
Speaker 2: to Billy. He's one of the fuorite riders. I have
Speaker 2: a real soft spot for Billy because he had a
Speaker 2: rough life.
Speaker 5: He did die at thirty three.
Speaker 3: Though I'm not gonna, y'all rather blow my brain all here,
Speaker 3: and I don't want to. I don't want to. You're
Speaker 3: you know, make some great points and I don't want
Speaker 3: to direct you from them. But yeah, I do have
Speaker 3: to get us back on track here with the chapter society.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we'll yeah, well, we'll go ahead and sun
Speaker 2: ups as the rest of.
Speaker 3: The Oh, I assure you you have both of you
Speaker 3: receiving emails from me tonight with these various notes of
Speaker 3: things that come back in the future of an invite.
Speaker 3: So I do appreciate your time and for blowing my brain.
Speaker 3: Though I just like to try to keep this their
Speaker 3: have gone because I you all just made so many
Speaker 3: comments that I've been my tongue on. We'll just we'll
Speaker 3: stay we'll stay the path here. We'll definitely be doing
Speaker 3: these in the future though, these other things.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: So the next thing we see is Don there getting
Speaker 3: engaged to Alma.
Speaker 2: Huh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, That's probably my favorite part
Speaker 2: of the movie is when he starts to realize that
Speaker 2: something's wrong with her. It's it's really creepy. You know,
Speaker 2: there's very little dialogue, but she's acting so weird, and
Speaker 2: they keep flashing back to the looks on his face
Speaker 2: and he's just it's that.
Speaker 3: I really like that part, said Don. I meant David,
Speaker 3: so Don to learn that he was horrid to become
Speaker 3: engaged at Alma. So Don then shows the three elders, right, yeah, he.
Speaker 2: He shows them a photo and they say, oh my god,
Speaker 2: that's that's Eva. We remember Eva.
Speaker 3: So yeah, so we have three we have three old
Speaker 3: muppets at this point, right, because Don's dad's dead.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. He's the one that jumped off
Speaker 2: the bridge.
Speaker 3: Yep, Don's brother's dead because he was banging Alma. Right,
Speaker 3: we saw his dick at the beginning of the film, right, stay. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: good point. I'm just reiterating. That's so, folks, you go
Speaker 3: watch this film. Can expect the they want to watch it,
Speaker 3: that's up to them. At least.
Speaker 5: Scary part of the movie.
Speaker 3: Dude, I only jumped at one part and that was
Speaker 3: that part. Like there was another jump scar.
Speaker 2: It's an unflattering shot for any actor. I think.
Speaker 3: Inappropriate.
Speaker 5: They didn't even like slap it around and get it
Speaker 5: kind of half chubb or something like. No, it was
Speaker 5: full on baby dick.
Speaker 2: It looks very awkward. Yeah, it must have been an
Speaker 2: awkward day on set.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know when there's a lot of
Speaker 3: awkward days and a lot of sets, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 5: And his bush on the first.
Speaker 3: The so the next day we lose the second and
Speaker 3: we lose our next muppet.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's doctor Jeffery.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, huh yeah yeah. So then and then after that,
Speaker 3: then the other the two remaining muppets, fred Astaire and
Speaker 3: the other guy the Ricky and Sears right houseman and
Speaker 3: Freda's Staire, right yeah, yeah. They tell they kind of
Speaker 3: bring Ricky in on the scene or I'm sorry, don
Speaker 3: in on the scene at that point, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They explained to him, just just like in the book,
Speaker 2: to everything that happened. They in the book, when it's
Speaker 2: just the two of them left, they're sitting in Edward's house, uh,
Speaker 2: and they're they're saying, you know, we're we're gonna explain
Speaker 2: to you what happened and what the history of this is,
Speaker 2: and we're not proud of it, but we killed this
Speaker 2: woman and we didn't mean to.
Speaker 3: Yep. Uh so yeah, and that's when we see the
Speaker 3: scene and that they flashes back to when they were dancing. Right,
Speaker 3: that's right, that's right. It says after the four were
Speaker 3: uh oh, that's not it. After the four win Hammond
Speaker 3: became drunk. They returned to the houses of the dilapidated
Speaker 3: house that we see in the future. Actually we skipped
Speaker 3: over that part, and I apologize. So, yeah, it's town
Speaker 3: fred Astaire, mister Ricky there, right, he goes over to
Speaker 3: that old mercy and right what happens there in the
Speaker 3: old scene. So I think that's a very interesting dynamic
Speaker 3: that obviously plays a very important role later in the film,
Speaker 3: but is interesting in this kind of esoteric understanding as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, he sees Gregory and Finny. Their roles in
Speaker 2: the film were a little murky. There's not any real
Speaker 2: reason for them to be in the film other than
Speaker 2: to just add another horrific layer to the story. But
Speaker 2: they're major characters via flashback in the novel. But yeah,
Speaker 2: Gregory Bait whose character name is is from Gregory Bates
Speaker 2: and the Influenced are d laying, Yeah ye, and Finny
Speaker 2: is his, uh, developmentally disabled brother of the little boy,
Speaker 2: and you see them here and there throughout the film
Speaker 2: whenever something had happens.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: But their roles in the film are are much diminished
Speaker 2: compared to what they do in the book.
Speaker 3: But oh yeah, yeah, Well, the one thing I did
Speaker 3: pick up on there was, especially after fredis Stare gets
Speaker 3: chased out of there by them, you hear Alma's voice
Speaker 3: and them going to room like she's got some sort
Speaker 3: of mind control spell on them.
Speaker 2: That's right, She lasts, and she says, I've got something
Speaker 2: for you to do or something of that effect. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and the the the police dispatch. The guy on the
Speaker 2: dispatch phone says, tells the sheriff, well, we've got this
Speaker 2: weird guy in town, Gregory Bate. He was involved in
Speaker 2: some cult or something back on the West coast and
Speaker 2: he's he left, he got out of an asylum or something,
Speaker 2: and he's, uh, he's here in Milbourne now, and uh,
Speaker 2: they're there is that verbal tie to all the cult
Speaker 2: stuff in the movie.
Speaker 3: So two questions. One I just forgot while I was
Speaker 3: asking you that, and uh, secondly I forgot the second one.
Speaker 3: So I will get back to you points about bateson
Speaker 3: and there were both relative debates and whatever it was.
Speaker 3: It'll circle back here in a second. Sure, Yeah, Now,
Speaker 3: because Bates is an interesting character right within within this
Speaker 3: kind of he didn't mean he's not he didn't work
Speaker 3: for the Tabstad, but within this kind of mind controlled Tavistock,
Speaker 3: and you know, he was very going to do this
Speaker 3: to society, right like he's entered on that process.
Speaker 2: He had some odd concepts and he was a huge
Speaker 2: influence on already Lane.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, not the comedian, No, the Oh so did
Speaker 3: the mill Milburne? Was that any not to mil Grum.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure. That's a good question.
Speaker 3: It may have been, you know, the milgrim experiment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that's that's a good point. It may
Speaker 2: have been that.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: I would have asked Peter Strout if I could have
Speaker 2: asked him, you know, and sat down with him and
Speaker 2: said like, sure, wow, man, you really packed the references
Speaker 2: into this one book. It's just it's incredible hardcore.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this may have been his opus. I don't know
Speaker 5: about I'm not a hundred on that JJ.
Speaker 3: When they were convincing folks to shock, they thought they
Speaker 3: were getting you know, deadly levels of shock therapy, but
Speaker 3: really they were just an actor holding the things like
Speaker 3: they were getting shocked and the person didn't know the
Speaker 3: whole thing was an experiment. But they realized that they
Speaker 3: could get other people to kill people because they were
Speaker 3: being told to do so. Oh shit grant on paper.
Speaker 3: At least allegedly, they weren't really killing folks. There was
Speaker 3: no actual electric shock being applied. The person who was
Speaker 3: applying electric shock was the subject of the test to
Speaker 3: see how much they could get them to do by
Speaker 3: just telling them to do more, you know everything, even
Speaker 3: though everything said that person was going to die, and
Speaker 3: they would remind the person's gonna die there, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna do it anyway, because there was a
Speaker 3: bifurcation of liability, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, it's
Speaker 3: really easy to get people to tell people to die
Speaker 3: and kill people apparently.
Speaker 5: Well, I mean this is a psychological operation.
Speaker 3: That's what I mean. So this guy, That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: So if we're doing baits and stuff, right, why would
Speaker 3: Milburn not be a nod to mil Groom?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 5: Ah, for sure?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, those were the thoughts of the circle back
Speaker 3: of my brain hole there.
Speaker 7: That was.
Speaker 3: I appreciate you all stand by for that one. But yeah,
Speaker 3: So the next thing we see, after we see the four,
Speaker 3: the three out of the four dance with the Eva.
Speaker 3: She hits her head. They put her in the car,
Speaker 3: they sent her in the pond, but she's alive when
Speaker 3: she goes in that pond. So that's a very to me,
Speaker 3: that's very indicative a ritual human sacrifice.
Speaker 5: And water same and the fact that she's a siren.
Speaker 3: There you go again with the sirens. I wasn't even
Speaker 3: considering that the first time I saw it. With the
Speaker 3: siren stuff, that's even Yeah, brings it all right into
Speaker 3: the same same conversation.
Speaker 5: And it's like she draws her power from the water
Speaker 5: because water is a conduit for Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So they call him Gregory Bait, which yeah,
Speaker 3: I was like, wait a second, that's a little too
Speaker 3: on the nose, Gregory Bates and yeah, yeah. So then
Speaker 3: we go back to present day, right, and then that's
Speaker 3: when these fellows start, you know, after they flashed back
Speaker 3: to yesterdayear remember the time they killed that lady and
Speaker 3: they're like, wait a second, and that lady is the
Speaker 3: new lady? What's going on here?
Speaker 2: Right? Right? And then you have a long flashback scene
Speaker 2: with the with the young versions of all the members
Speaker 2: of the Chatter Society, and we see how they meet
Speaker 2: Eva like a summertime, some sort of social gathering, and
Speaker 2: then they she's had a tea or a dance or something,
Speaker 2: and they all become fascinated with her. But it's it's
Speaker 2: ned who's the best looking of the bunch, and it's
Speaker 2: ned that he and Eva are attracted each other. And
Speaker 2: so they're all out doing this almost kind of like surreal,
Speaker 2: like they're running through an orchard and then they're on
Speaker 2: a canoe and yeah, you know, nineteen twenties escape, Like right,
Speaker 2: everybody's wearing those boater hats and but yeah, that's an
Speaker 2: interesting series of scenes too. But yeah, they they wind
Speaker 2: up killing Eva accidentally, or they think they've killed her,
Speaker 2: as we described, but then they see as they're pushing
Speaker 2: the car into the pond that that she's still lots
Speaker 2: of the back window and is banging on the window
Speaker 2: and screen.
Speaker 5: They put in zero efforts and watching.
Speaker 7: Like oh wait, she's alive, you know, drooling and punching,
Speaker 7: and looked at each other and they were like, wow, fuck,
Speaker 7: I guess she's dead, right, And.
Speaker 2: That's that's that's supposed to be, Like, look at these horrible,
Speaker 2: spoiled rich kids. Look at what they did, had a
Speaker 2: chance to save somebody's life, and they, which is in
Speaker 2: the book is is the way they think of themselves
Speaker 2: all throughout their lives. They think, God, we just killed somebody.
Speaker 2: We murdered a woman, and then Don tells Sears and
Speaker 2: Ricky in the book, you know, she never was a woman.
Speaker 2: There was always something wrong with her. What you did
Speaker 2: was you just inadvertently caught her off guard. She was
Speaker 2: already going to kill you, but you just made her
Speaker 2: angrier than ever. And that's why she's been coming back
Speaker 2: over and over throughout your lives and.
Speaker 5: Families and killing their sons.
Speaker 3: And the audience to see their sons dick because they're
Speaker 3: falling out of building. Yeah, so that I'm obviously upset
Speaker 3: about that or anything.
Speaker 5: We flashed back to present time.
Speaker 3: He flapped He what I said? That guy flashed something
Speaker 3: all right in that in that scene falling out the building.
Speaker 5: Yeah, his baby asparagus.
Speaker 3: What were you saying? The flashback to the present when
Speaker 3: we see them concluding that Eva and Alma are the
Speaker 3: same person, right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then they're like, all right, what are we
Speaker 5: gonna do? And they decide to drive back to Eva's
Speaker 5: old boarded up, old scary house.
Speaker 3: Yeah, where fred Astaire got Ricky got chased out by
Speaker 3: the goons, the goons squad, yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in the meantime, here Sears he has left
Speaker 2: Ricky's house alone to sort of divert attention because he
Speaker 2: thinks if he can draw the bad guys away from
Speaker 2: Ricky and Don, that he'll sacrifice himself to do this.
Speaker 2: So he does. Sears dies when Gregory and Finny magically
Speaker 2: appear in his car. So they kill Sears in his
Speaker 2: car out in the snow, and then there's just Ricky
Speaker 2: and Don left and they go to Eva's house and yeah,
Speaker 2: Don hurts his leg and.
Speaker 3: Uh stairs in the old lap and instructure. Huh right right,
Speaker 3: and then we see them going uh and he suddainly
Speaker 3: has a go ahead.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was just yeah, the interior that is
Speaker 2: really nice that they convincingly recreate a broken down house
Speaker 2: from that period. It's that's really nice.
Speaker 3: And maybe that's where the main thing. Yeah, yeah, we see,
Speaker 3: we suddenly see, after watching all his friends die, that
Speaker 3: he's something that old Ricky here suddenly gets a conscience
Speaker 3: about himself. Huh he does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And while he's going to get help for Don,
Speaker 2: who can't move because of his injured leg, he gets
Speaker 2: the idea that, well, maybe if we pull the old
Speaker 2: car up from the pond. And it's not real clear
Speaker 2: how he thinks this is going to solve everything, but
Speaker 2: he wants to make it the nineteen twenty nine incident, right,
Speaker 2: So he tells the sheriff what he and his friends
Speaker 2: did to the woman back then, and that they pushed
Speaker 2: the car into the pond. So they go and they
Speaker 2: get on.
Speaker 3: The pond routine and he thinks that the woman is
Speaker 3: that he thinks the woman is in the car or
Speaker 3: not in the car.
Speaker 2: He thinks somehow if he can dredge up the body
Speaker 2: and expose the body, that the ghost will leave Don alone.
Speaker 2: And it's never really clear how that works, but he
Speaker 2: gets a tow truck and a crane and a wench
Speaker 2: and everything, and they they dredge the pond and then.
Speaker 3: The old pond the car of the pond. Magic trick
Speaker 3: with the car.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, it's it is kind of an unexpected that,
Speaker 2: like that's not where you expect the plot to go,
Speaker 2: you know. But Done is waiting in the house and
Speaker 2: Eva's ghost is right there and she's reaching out for
Speaker 2: him and she's like a skeleton hand touching his throat
Speaker 2: and he's screaming and and so. But just at that
Speaker 2: moment they dredge the car up from the pond. Ricky
Speaker 2: or somebody opens the door and then out comes Eva's
Speaker 2: corpse straight at him, and Ricky is going like, you know,
Speaker 2: like you're afraid that's going to kill him, since all
Speaker 2: his other friends are already dead. But the body of
Speaker 2: Eva collapses right there on the ground. And then suddenly,
Speaker 2: back at Eva's house, her ghost or the ghost of
Speaker 2: all whatever she is is gone and done is safe too.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well yeah, it was like every she needed everybody to
Speaker 5: know what happened to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And and just by their dredging up the car
Speaker 2: and exposing the body somehow or other, her her visits satisfied. Right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that puts you, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Which you know, to a certain extent, I feel like
Speaker 3: that's kind of these tropes and that that that you know,
Speaker 3: there's some sort of you know, something attracting keeping these uh,
Speaker 3: these you know, this isn't the first time we've seen
Speaker 3: some sort of a priestess of a witchcraft type of
Speaker 3: deal sorcery kind of being that's haunting folks until they
Speaker 3: can get something back from the person a heart or
Speaker 3: a long maybe maybe kidney. I'm not sure they're on
Speaker 3: an organ donor list in the spirit world or what,
Speaker 3: but they're always after something right.
Speaker 2: Right, like a pound of flesh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I'm trying to remember why I saved this from
Speaker 3: the film, and I just got distracted because, uh was
Speaker 3: that it? We're I'll give you all some closing statements,
Speaker 3: but that was I thought that was a great recap
Speaker 3: of events. But I had saved two notes from earlier
Speaker 3: I said that were really weird and creepy synchronistic events
Speaker 3: for me when I was watching this film and reading
Speaker 3: about stuff. Yeah, and I don't remember why I saved
Speaker 3: this lady to do it, to give me a second,
Speaker 3: but she I just got distracted because she was married
Speaker 3: to Roll Doll speaking of Deadler.
Speaker 2: Oh Patrician Neil. Yeah, I almost forget. Yeah, she was
Speaker 2: Ricky's wife.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, she was Ricky's wife, Thank you, sir.
Speaker 3: I knew there was some reason why I saved this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and why can't I think of her name Stella?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, so she was married to the old diddler
Speaker 3: Roll Doll. Because them Snosberry's from Willi Wanka turned out
Speaker 3: to be dicks and not candy.
Speaker 2: Yeah she was. At one point she was Dashal Hammett's
Speaker 2: girlfriend too.
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, Yeah, when roll Doll was telling folks that
Speaker 3: the Snosberry's tastes like Snosberry's according to them kids. He
Speaker 3: would later just crib to Snosbery in the later book
Speaker 3: as Dix.
Speaker 2: In fact, according to one of Nashal Hammett's daughters, Hammett
Speaker 2: warned her, uh, don't get married to him. He's not
Speaker 2: a good person, or something to that effects. So that
Speaker 2: that's interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is interesting. Well, can't be the purge there.
Speaker 3: It's my Abin Costello Cohort and Idaho. Four conversations we
Speaker 3: do over there on his show, and he's gonna love
Speaker 3: this one. So as you can see her. Patricia O'Neil
Speaker 3: was a member of Phi Beta Pie, the sorority girls
Speaker 3: up and around that Idaho. For murder, we're all Phi
Speaker 3: Beta Pie. Interesting. Interesting And the man, the male, the
Speaker 3: male victim was Sigma Chai. And in the film we
Speaker 3: hear them singing this song Sweetheart of signay Chais.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what we're singing it down down below eas window.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, the Snisberry like Snilesberry's. Yeah, according to these guys,
Speaker 3: and eat a bunch of dicks. If you asked me
Speaker 3: to believe this is somehow just weird circumstances.
Speaker 2: I would not put that pass role though at all.
Speaker 2: He was a very peculiar person.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, like, it's weird. It just weird to
Speaker 3: me that in the future past all of these things. Again,
Speaker 3: I don't want to get into comments of questions of
Speaker 3: time and concept of time, but it is weird to
Speaker 3: me how some of these things work that, like you
Speaker 3: can have such you know, elements where an actress as
Speaker 3: a member of the same sorority as these victims, and
Speaker 3: they're singing a song about the other victim and the
Speaker 3: fraternity he's from. It's just a weird concept of the
Speaker 3: movie for me to watch. And I was like, what
Speaker 3: the fuck's going on right now?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 3: Gil Bill Searns went off in my brain hole, is
Speaker 3: what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I think all of this stuff is absolutely conscious. I mean,
Speaker 2: it just doesn't.
Speaker 3: It's you know, yeah, well, I'm what I'm saying about
Speaker 3: time and magic. It's like and again I want to
Speaker 3: this is a conversation for a different day. But I
Speaker 3: think part of this and Peter Lavenda, the OTO member,
Speaker 3: brings us up in his book relative to some of
Speaker 3: the son the same matters right, talking about time and
Speaker 3: centers for forces and whatnot, and how you can how
Speaker 3: these magicians impact time and a non linear fashion. And
Speaker 3: again it's a it's a lot of stuff to get
Speaker 3: into right now, but these are concepts similar to a
Speaker 3: relative to the subject via folks like the OTO member
Speaker 3: Peter Lavenda, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And these people they do, they're very serious
Speaker 2: about what they do. A lot of them, well, this
Speaker 2: this stuff is silly that they're into, but it's but
Speaker 2: they take it very very seriously.
Speaker 5: Right, I say that all the time. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when when, for example, when people try to try
Speaker 3: to suggest to me that the Church of Satan and
Speaker 3: Antonavay was just a carnival barker and it was all
Speaker 3: bet it is all a gambit, and I'm like, all right, dude,
Speaker 3: well that's hilarious, but I don't buy it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's exactly what they want people to think.
Speaker 2: It's all just a joke.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, we're we're just we're just agnostic.
Speaker 3: We just like the Lares devils and weird shit.
Speaker 5: Like the Larvest devils. You know what it is to
Speaker 5: This is something that I always bring up when I
Speaker 5: cover these type of topics is if they weren't results,
Speaker 5: why would they keep doing it. They've been doing it
Speaker 5: forever and obviously they're getting some kind of results, so
Speaker 5: you don't have to believe in it, but they do.
Speaker 5: And obviously it's working for them, or they wouldn't do
Speaker 5: the shit that they're doing.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah. And when I say this nonlinear aspect of time,
Speaker 3: where ideas come from, especially for writers, and again suggested
Speaker 3: by Peter Leavenda, where I even came up but started
Speaker 3: going on this path, not just his ideas, but he's
Speaker 3: the one who sent me on this path. I believe
Speaker 3: he mentions it in Sinister Forces. There was a book written,
Speaker 3: I believe in eighteen eighty seven called The titan which
Speaker 3: was about an indestructible cruise linership that went between Europe
Speaker 3: and America and suddenly hit an iceberg and sank. Well
Speaker 3: that just so happened to occur again later in the
Speaker 3: future real world time is the Titanic. So that's all
Speaker 3: I'm saying here with these circumstances.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely, oh yeah, you get in, Julie.
Speaker 3: Get something obvious, just for at least for the advocation
Speaker 3: of the folks of the interwebs. Who have missed my
Speaker 3: you know routine and you know unsolicited tirades on time time,
Speaker 3: then you know there's part of it on right there.
Speaker 3: I appreciate both of your all's time and night speaking
Speaker 3: of time, Julia and John both, and for blowing up
Speaker 3: my brain whole a number of times.
Speaker 5: Which thanks I just got.
Speaker 3: I just started getting walk in that cycle for a moment.
Speaker 3: There are things you suggested to me and I didn't know.
Speaker 3: I'm like, wait a second, I got to close the
Speaker 3: show out first before I start doing that. So I
Speaker 3: appreciate both of your all time.
Speaker 5: Yeah you yes, Yes, great to meet you. John, I
Speaker 5: always love go ahead, thank you, No, that's all I had. JJ.
Speaker 2: Go ahead.
Speaker 3: I'll make sure I connect y'all with the emails and
Speaker 3: I'll put your email Julia in the show notes for
Speaker 3: folks to reach out to you, especially maze Iss, who
Speaker 3: I again love to hear more thoughts there, ma'am. That's
Speaker 3: great stuff. I appreciate the input and chat for all
Speaker 3: the folks in the web as well, for sure, and
Speaker 3: if I can offer y'all, I appre appreciate y'all's review
Speaker 3: and again all the ideas we've shared your night's great
Speaker 3: stuff like to offer y'all both closing st a, ma'am,
Speaker 3: would you like to go first, and anything you'd like
Speaker 3: to recap or anything you like to plug.
Speaker 5: I thought this movie was really awesome. John obviously reads
Speaker 5: the book every October. It sounds like it's just a
Speaker 5: part of his Halloween ritual thing that he does. I
Speaker 5: have a similar one. I watch American Horror Story season
Speaker 5: one in three every October, just something I like to do.
Speaker 5: I think there's a lot of conspiracy stuff within American
Speaker 5: Horror Story. And so yeah, it's just nice meeting people
Speaker 5: who know what's up and having a good conversation. JJ,
Speaker 5: thanks for the invite, John, great to meet you. Yes,
Speaker 5: the chat was on fire tonight, so thanks to everybody
Speaker 5: in the chat. And yeah, that's it for me.
Speaker 3: That's awesome. No, thank you, ma'am. And I definitely one
Speaker 3: thing I was thinking, and we'll turn over to John
Speaker 3: for an answer, but i'd like to get both y'all
Speaker 3: back on to discuss Program to Kill after John gets
Speaker 3: a chance to read it.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I'm down for that anytime.
Speaker 3: What do you say, Johnny? Gunny close statements, we walcome
Speaker 3: back and I'm sure you're walking back any time to
Speaker 3: talk any of these things. But you know, I would
Speaker 3: love to get your input on the Program to Kill
Speaker 3: once you get a chance to read that. And I
Speaker 3: don't knock over my micro front with the karate chop.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I look forward to that. Yeah, I'm gonna start
Speaker 2: reading it tomorrow. So yeah, and and thank you guys.
Speaker 2: And I'm just uh, I'm still working on the book.
Speaker 2: I don't know when that's gonna come out, but it's
Speaker 2: it's gonna be a big one. And it's uh, it's
Speaker 2: taken me a long time because I'm doing all the
Speaker 2: editing and all the drafts myself. So I'm just working
Speaker 2: on it bit by bit, but it'll it'll be out eventually.
Speaker 3: It's good to have a better uh probably like you
Speaker 3: you know, you can stand behind rather than one that's timely,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I want to I want to take some
Speaker 2: care of it.
Speaker 3: So so it.
Speaker 5: Passion project.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great stuff. And like I said, I have
Speaker 3: all your all folks in the inter webs can find
Speaker 3: Julia's stuff, John stuff and the links and their show
Speaker 3: in the show notes. And uh, I don't have any
Speaker 3: closing statements myself other than I greatly appreciate your all
Speaker 3: time conversation, all the time of the and chad of
Speaker 3: the folks of the interwebs, and tune in for Operation
Speaker 3: GCD Thursdays. I'm a Patreon. I'll do a about a
Speaker 3: thirty minute preview here on the on the youtubes and
Speaker 3: the other stuff, and then I go over to the
Speaker 3: Patreon Thursdays and Sundays. But tomorrow is my first the
Speaker 3: Anatomy of a Satanic Panic, which again largely is gonna
Speaker 3: involve not this guy, not the muppet version of this guy,
Speaker 3: but the original version of this guy, Michael Lokino. You know,
Speaker 3: like I said, Piops, I'm not gonna be like, well,
Speaker 3: I'm happy to discuss elements of Satanic murders that have
Speaker 3: existed in around the sun of same situation or the
Speaker 3: process or anto these other similar murders. We've discussed this evening.
Speaker 3: But I'm really looking at focusing on unpacking the propaganda,
Speaker 3: the psychological operations, and then comparing these these major events
Speaker 3: that we know of the Son of Sam and stuff,
Speaker 3: and again showing that these aren't the only you know,
Speaker 3: these aren't these this is not the only example, It's
Speaker 3: not an outlier right. There's a lot more of the
Speaker 3: ship that doesn't even get talked about. For example, you'll
Speaker 3: see the Presidio board in the background here, because you
Speaker 3: know he was stationed to the presidio associated with the
Speaker 3: Presidio daycare situation. As Julia's now you're head any agreements,
Speaker 3: She's well aware of what I'm talking about there, Julia,
Speaker 3: would you believe that's not the only daycar that popped
Speaker 3: off with that same epidemic and the same problem.
Speaker 5: I would believe that one hundred. I think McMartin Presidio,
Speaker 5: I mean they're just uh, you know, drops in the bucket. Yeah,
Speaker 5: if you if you can imagine. And just as a
Speaker 5: closing thought, this is a closing thought anyone who has
Speaker 5: read Program to Kill Her or they're familiar with McMartin
Speaker 5: preschool scandal or the Presidio daycare scandal. I just recently
Speaker 5: saw something saying that the movie with Robin Williams Missus Doubtfire,
Speaker 5: that character, Missus Doubtfire is based on the preschool teacher
Speaker 5: at McMartin, down to the exact look, wardrobe, everything. If
Speaker 5: you look at the McMartin precs school teacher next to
Speaker 5: Robin Williams as missus doubtfire. They're spitting images of each other.
Speaker 5: So that's a rabbit hole for the listeners to.
Speaker 3: Go and look it down. I'm gonna look at it
Speaker 3: as we get off of here, in fact, but yeah,
Speaker 3: that's just for sure, no, thank you. And from Presidio
Speaker 3: to West Point at that same time in the eighties
Speaker 3: there was more than one diddling scandal. So that's from
Speaker 3: coast to coast, that's my point. We were so as
Speaker 3: part of the propaganda and magic show, we're sold these
Speaker 3: one off incidents and say everyone, look at this incident.
Speaker 3: This incident didn't occur anywhere else. It only happen here
Speaker 3: at the Presidio, within the confines of the Persida and
Speaker 3: only involved Michael Keino. And I assure you that ain't
Speaker 3: the full tail.
Speaker 5: Yeah nope.
Speaker 3: So folks want to check out more of that business,
Speaker 3: please check out Operation GC Thursdays and uh. On that note,
Speaker 3: and if he yelled on anything else, I thank you
Speaker 3: all both for your time and folks of the interwebs,
Speaker 3: thanks a lot.
Speaker 2: Enjoyed it.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 2: O