WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:09.000 Monster House presents. 2 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:16.480 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 3 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:22.399 A giant, very creature party part. 4 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:26.280 In Luckness, a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake 5 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:27.480 in the Highlands of Scotland. 6 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:29.960 It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. 7 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:53.280 Monster Talk. 8 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:58.880 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 9 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:00.000 Blake Smith. 10 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:01.200 And I'm Karen Stolsner. 11 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:04.000 Hey, welcome back to part two of our two part 12 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:06.599 chat with doctor Phillip Center about his new book, The 13 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:10.319 Real Story of Dinosaurs and Dragons. It's funny how sometimes 14 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:12.239 when an idea is in your mind, you'll start seeing 15 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.680 it everywhere, and psychology will tell you that's a kind 16 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:18.400 of observation bias, your brain looking for patterns. This gets 17 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:21.920 even worse when Internet ecosystems like Google scour your emails 18 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:24.400 looking for patterns that might interest you, or when news 19 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:26.840 outlets discover a story is getting a lot of traffic 20 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:30.280 and reporters start posting similar stories, which creates this public 21 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:32.920 feeling that something must be going on, and that's going 22 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:37.000 to be exacerbated even more soon by the advertising arbitrage system, 23 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:40.439 which is forming a deeply lucrative relationship with large language 24 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.359 models that can generate hot articles from thin air with 25 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:46.719 convincing photos. We're in for a ride, folks, and I 26 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.280 don't think we can stop it from happening, because at present, 27 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.959 the ecosystem of content generation has become uncoupled from any 28 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:57.319 value for whether the said content is, for lack of 29 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:01.799 a better word, bullshit or not. I said last week 30 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:04.760 that this is an epistemological war, that there's different ways 31 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.120 of deciding whether someone believes something or not, and I 32 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.280 come down hard in the camp that values evidence based approaches. 33 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:15.080 But I also believe that people may have a biological 34 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:18.680 reason for wanting simple answers that conform to their existing beliefs. 35 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:22.000 I'll be exploring this in my book about technology. But 36 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.599 even if I'm wrong about the deep causes, it is 37 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:28.199 evident in many scientific disciplines and even folk wisdom that 38 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:31.520 our biases always nudges to the answers that fit our 39 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:36.520 existing beliefs. I've never heard it more succinctly explain that 40 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:39.840 in Simon Garfunkel's song The Boxer, when the lyrics say 41 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:43.039 all lies in jest. Still a man, here's what he 42 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:45.719 wants to hear and disregard to the rest, I know 43 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:48.599 people have a tendency to think in terms of culture 44 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:51.280 war these days, and that implies there's two sides and 45 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.400 that one will eventually win, which brings me to another 46 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:58.759 insight from my work on technology. People crave simplicity and 47 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:01.680 will take a simple explain nation that feels good over 48 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:04.919 a hard, complex answer that more closely hues to reality. 49 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:07.960 We work on models in our brain, and there's probably 50 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:11.199 no simpler explanation for the magistic complexity of the world 51 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:15.560 we're in than God did it. That kind of naive 52 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:18.599 simplicity is very satisfying for folks who want to believe 53 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:21.280 they understand the world. But it's the kind of simple 54 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:25.000 answer designed to make one stop asking questions and has 55 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:29.120 the big capital letter truth, which is very satisfying to 56 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.719 some fold. This isn't a judgment against such people. I'm 57 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.560 here today because of such people and because they love 58 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:38.120 me and cared for me. But they're not the kind 59 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:40.560 of people who want to solve medical problems, for example, 60 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:43.000 or maybe they have a hybrid view that includes going 61 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.560 to the doctor, but they also pray, and when they 62 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:47.960 finally get better, they curse the thousands of dollars in 63 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:50.759 medical expenses in medicine and they thank the Lord for 64 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:54.360 his miraculous healing. We don't hear as much from the 65 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.560 purists who reject medicine entirely for prayer, because on average 66 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:02.879 they end up dead quicker, and that's quieter. But taking 67 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:06.039 the science side of things means acknowledging complexity, and you 68 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:08.599 don't get the big capital T truth there. Even though 69 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:12.439 statistically an evidence based rational worldview gives you more reliable models, 70 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:17.839 science truths are always provisional. Yes, scientists are people and 71 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.000 they have their biases, but the methodology itself insists that 72 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:23.759 we have to change our models to comport with reality 73 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.800 and not the other way around, and that is hard. 74 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:31.000 But again, the real world is complicated, and many scientists 75 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:33.959 aren't atheists, they just don't have a naive iron age 76 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:37.240 view of the world. Scientists, when faced with a difference 77 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.680 between their faith and their evidence, have to acknowledge the evidence. 78 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:46.480 This battle already happen. Literalist interpretation of creation myths just 79 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.600 don't stand up to scrutiny. They could be beautiful and 80 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.680 moving and poetic and exciting, but they're not useful for 81 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.120 understanding the complex process that created the world we live 82 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:00.199 in today. Science tells us with a great deal of 83 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.279 certitude that the Earth is billions of years old and 84 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:07.079 the universe even older. And with these evidence based theories, 85 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:09.680 we can make testable hypotheses. And we live in a 86 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:14.720 world with satellite communication and nuclear power, incredible medical capabilities, 87 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:18.680 amazing technologies, chemical insights that have allowed us to expand 88 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:23.199 agriculture and grow our population to billions without starvation. All 89 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:25.279 of these things can exist in a world of faith 90 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.519 and a belief in divine care. But we would not 91 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.160 have any of this, nor would any of you likely 92 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:34.360 be alive, if our species had stopped with God, did it? 93 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:36.160 So? 94 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:39.079 I guess I get annoyed at creationists because they get 95 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.480 all the benefits of this network of interconnected discoveries while 96 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.759 proudly rejecting the science that allowed this to come into 97 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:50.560 existence in favor of three thousand year old myths. Anyway, 98 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:55.680 litteralists want simple answers, but the world is not simple. 99 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:58.199 And when they come after the science books, it's a 100 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.279 direct attack on the very system that allow us to 101 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:04.959 discover more about the world. And when they come after 102 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:07.560 cryptids and monsters, I can't help but feel us a 103 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:09.920 direct attack on Monstrutle. 104 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:12.319 Well, welcome back. 105 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.319 We're going to continue our interview now talking about the 106 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:18.000 rest of your book and kind of the heart of it, 107 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:22.399 which is how creationists are using dragons to promote anti 108 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:28.959 science narratives. Kerrien, why don't you kick us off? 109 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:34.360 Yes, we'll do well. Phil, welcome back, and let's get 110 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:36.920 in the second part of our discussion. So your book 111 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:41.759 refers to dinosaurs being used by creationists as missionary lizards. 112 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:43.800 So can you tell us a bit about what this 113 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:49.279 phrase means and how dinosaurs strategically are employed in Young 114 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:50.279 Earth narratives. 115 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:54.879 Well, the phrase missionary lizards, if I'm not mistaken, is 116 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:58.040 the brainchild of ken Ham, who is the head of 117 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:01.800 Answers in Genesis, and it refers to the fact that 118 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:07.560 they can be used as a proselytizing device to sort 119 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:13.319 of bring people to the faith. And the specific version 120 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:18.399 of the faith that Answers in Genesis promotes is one 121 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:23.279 in which Genesis and the Biblical timeline are both taken 122 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:30.639 literally as a historical fact. And if that is correct, 123 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:35.800 then the earth was created about six thousand years ago 124 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:40.839 and all the different kinds of animals were created simultaneously, 125 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:46.199 which means that humans and dinosaurs encountered each other. 126 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:49.360 Well to Jorassic Book. 127 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:55.319 If we take this to its logical extreme, then maybe, 128 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:59.959 just maybe dragon legends are based on human in count 129 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:05.160 with live dinosaurs. And where it gets very entertaining for 130 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:11.920 me is the idea that fire breathing dragon legends are 131 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:17.240 based on human encounters with fire breathing dinosaurs. And that 132 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:19.439 is just so fun to write about. 133 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.319 Yeah, you actually dig into that quite a bit, So 134 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:26.680 you delve into what we call the fire breathing hypothesis, 135 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.759 which ranges from methane vents to electric eels. What's one 136 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:35.279 claim that really stood out to you as wild, wildly 137 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.399 implausible but still pretty widely repeated. Which is easy to 138 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:40.360 write but hard to say. 139 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:51.799 But one of my favorites is the pyrophoric chemical idea. Now, 140 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:56.039 so far, no younger creationist writer whose writings I have 141 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.080 read has used the term pyrophoric, but they describe it 142 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:03.240 the the term Pyrophormit. Pyrophoric has to do with any 143 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:08.559 chemical that will spontaneously cause flame when it's exposed to oxygen. 144 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:13.360 So the idea is, if a dinosaur is producing a 145 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:18.279 pyrophoric chemical from its throat or its nose, then a 146 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:23.440 fireball will emerge from the mouth or the nose, And 147 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:29.919 it is incontrovertible that if a dinosaur did produce or 148 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:35.200 if any vertebrate produced a pyrophoric chemical and great enough 149 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.440 quantity from its nose in its mouth. 150 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:40.559 Yeah, it would produce a flame. The problem with. 151 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:45.279 The hypothesis is what happens next, Because if there's a 152 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:49.039 fireball in your nose, or a fireball in your mouth, 153 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:52.840 or a fireball even at the edge of your nose 154 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:57.679 or your mouth on the way out, there are serious 155 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:02.240 health issues that will result in mediately. Just ask anybody 156 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:07.480 who's had facial burns or oral burns. They are They 157 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:12.480 are both clinically serious conditions that if you don't get treated, 158 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:17.279 death is almost inevitable. So if a fire breathing dragon 159 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:21.519 truly existed, it would have had the opportunity to earn 160 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:22.919 its name once. 161 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.320 Yeah, these are such creative ideas and I always feel 162 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.200 like I need to apologize for ken Ham whenever anyone 163 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:35.759 talks about him being a fellow Australian. In analyzing biblical 164 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:40.000 monsters like a Leviathan and Behemoth, how do you separate 165 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:46.120 literary or metaphorical interpretation from more literalist misreadings. And how 166 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:48.399 does biblical scholarship help here. 167 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:54.080 Oh, biblical little scholarship helps a lot. If you've studied 168 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:58.840 the Hebrew language, it makes a huge difference, because it 169 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:02.440 is almost useless to read the Behemoth passage in Joeb 170 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:08.120 forty in English. It is the most mistranslated passage line 171 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:14.039 for line in the entire Bible. And the translators did 172 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:20.720 not know what sort of creature the ancient poet was 173 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:25.679 talking about, and they tried their best, but you have 174 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:29.080 to know the ancient context in order to translate those 175 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:33.559 lines correctly, and very very few people are familiar with 176 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:46.159 the mythological context of the Behemoth passage. Thankfully, I live 177 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:51.279 in an age in which translations are out there and 178 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:55.799 interlibrary loan is out there, and I can get my 179 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:57.159 hands on this stuff. 180 00:11:57.519 --> 00:11:58.039 It's great. 181 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:03.279 Some of the Yugaritic texts, for example, from where Syria 182 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:06.879 and Canaan that's kind of the border between them. In 183 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:13.480 ancient times, the city of Yugurt was right in that area, 184 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:19.000 and the the people there left a whole lot of 185 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:23.679 clay tablets with a cuneiform writing on it that in 186 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:27.639 some cases was medical tacts about dispelling demons. And one 187 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:30.320 of the things we learned from those is when you 188 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.480 when you dispel a demon, you you you tell it 189 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.679 to go to the mountains and stop feeding on this 190 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.759 person's energy and instead go to the mountains. 191 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:40.399 To feed on plants. 192 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:45.919 And you may even specifically mention reeds. And what do 193 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.679 we see in the Behemoth passage. He's been banished to 194 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:51.159 the mountains and he's surrounded by plants, and what is 195 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:57.120 he eating grass? And so this is it's a passage 196 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:01.679 about a creature that is of the supernatural variety, that 197 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:06.080 has been treated like a demon or like a dangerous 198 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:10.440 entity and been told go to the mountains and stay there. 199 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:14.320 And in fact, there's another part of the Behemoth passage 200 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:18.240 that says that the animals in the flat areas mock him. 201 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:21.320 It's as if they're going, yeah, and yeah, you can't 202 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:23.399 get us now, you know, you've been banished a way 203 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:28.440 over there. But this has been mistranslated as play, and 204 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:32.279 it makes you wonder why are animals playing. It doesn't 205 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:34.320 really have anything to do with the rest of the passage, 206 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:37.399 but when they're mocking him, now, okay, now it makes sense. 207 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:43.919 And there's other examples to within the same passage that 208 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:47.919 demonstrate this is a supernatural thing. For example, his maker 209 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:52.320 approaches him with the sword, And why would a deity 210 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:58.039 approach something like a crocodile or a or an hippopotamus 211 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:02.039 or any ordinary animal, including a dinosaur, with a sword. 212 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:06.600 Why is God going to fight a sauropod or a hippo. 213 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:09.080 It doesn't make any sense. It's got to be a 214 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:13.879 dangerous supernatural being that only a very powerful deity could 215 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:14.879 keep control. 216 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:24.159 Maybe it was a dinosword. Those translations are trinking. I 217 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.039 should mention here you have a lot of commentary about 218 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:30.519 this idea of dead varmint vision, which I think is 219 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:32.559 just such a fun term, and it's something that we 220 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:36.279 see a lot, not just in cryptozoology and with the 221 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:40.799 idea here is that people in modern eyes are looking 222 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:44.679 at ancient art and seeing creatures that they think might 223 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:48.320 be real. But it also comes up in upology and 224 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.440 people seeing images that artists know exactly what's going on. 225 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:56.240 Medievalists know exactly what's going on, but modern ancient aliens 226 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.080 theorists are like, oh, it must be a spaceship. That's 227 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.600 not a commet. Comets don't have little people in them, 228 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:03.639 you know, just really misunderstanding the art. But can you 229 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:05.559 talk a little bit about did Varmit vision? 230 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.879 Yes, Dead Varmit vision is all about misunderstanding the art. 231 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.759 It's all about ever having read a book on medieval 232 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:17.720 art and what it means, and then going to medieval 233 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:21.480 art with your brain as a blank slate, and then 234 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:27.559 trying to interpret things without without having a little knowledge beforehand, 235 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.159 and then you start to see stuff and it's it's 236 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:37.120 so exciting because it is. It is a great example 237 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.679 of this. It isn't a medieval one, but my favorite 238 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:45.080 one is from ancient Egypt. There's these cats, these long 239 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:49.320 necked cats. For some reason, their necks have been exaggerated 240 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.639 in length. But the rest of the animal is a cat. 241 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:55.720 It's got a kitty cat head, it's got kitty cat haunches, 242 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.559 it's got a kitty cat tail, they've got kitty cat pause. 243 00:15:58.679 --> 00:15:59.600 It's a cat. 244 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:02.559 From stem to stern, but its neck has been exaggerated, 245 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:07.519 and several Young Earth creationist authors are calling it a 246 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:13.120 brontosaurus or some other soropod dinosaur. Obviously they are seeing 247 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.440 only the neck and they're not seeing the rest of 248 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:20.600 the animal, which to me is like having a tarantula 249 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.759 with a little bit of frosting on it and seeing 250 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.039 the frosting calling it a wedding cake. 251 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:34.720 Yeah, it's a problem, and I don't know why. I mean, obviously, 252 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:37.840 the concept of abstract art, you know, it's not new. 253 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.240 You look at those ancient rock paintings. Those are very abstract, 254 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:45.600 They're very figurative, and they there's nothing quite literal about them. 255 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:49.399 Yet again, in a different field, ufology, ancient aliens that stuff. 256 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:51.759 People were like, look, those must be aliens because they 257 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:55.039 don't look like real people. And it's like, well, you know, 258 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.679 some of the stuff that Picasso did doesn't really favor 259 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:04.680 real people. Abstraction didn't develop in the nineteen twenties and thirties. 260 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.400 It's been around for human history. You know, it's a 261 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:08.720 hard lesson to tell people. 262 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:13.799 Yes, quite a few critters in ancient are are aren't 263 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:17.079 even meant to look realistic. They're they're meant to you know, Well, 264 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.880 they have stylization, which the ancients would have understood, their 265 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.960 ancient audience would have understood it, but we moderns require 266 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:29.000 some study to understand it. Yeah. 267 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:32.960 Well, this talk of of moments, and I keep thinking 268 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.000 of usimity Sam and loony tunes. 269 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.920 Oh yeah, that's fuck too flopping and slimy farm at 270 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:38.440 this time? 271 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.000 Or my name made yo semity sound. 272 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.720 I keep saying creationists as cartoonists, but I dug. 273 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:51.039 Gress so well, the level of silliness between the creationist 274 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.759 literature and Yosemite Sam is rather similar. 275 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:57.519 Oh I'm glad you said that. 276 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:03.000 Phil. 277 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.759 So you write that some creationist authors are using this 278 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:13.680 dragon dinosaur equivalents in grade school textbooks. So how significant 279 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.839 is this for science literacy and what kind of misinformation 280 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.319 is being taught to our kids? 281 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:27.480 Well, I'm hoping very very few people use these particular curricula, 282 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:31.079 but I don't know. I've actually tried contacting one or 283 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:36.920 two of the publishers and asking how how many copies 284 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.319 of this are, you know, are in circulation actually being taught, 285 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:43.000 and I could not get a straight answer. But there 286 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:46.440 are at least two different curricula from one from Bob 287 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:49.039 Jones University, one from Pensacola called. 288 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.599 A Becca Book b E Ka Becca. 289 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.920 And both of them at least at one point in 290 00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:03.440 this century had science textbooks in which they were saying 291 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:13.200 that dinosaurs breathed fire, and they were proffering suggestions as 292 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:18.799 to how the fire could have been produced. Oh let 293 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:23.359 me throw a disclaimer in there too. When I mentioned 294 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:28.880 the textbooks I had the Flaming Dinosaurs, I might have 295 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.119 misspoken about a Becca book if I remember right, they 296 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:36.440 endorsed the idea of dinosaurs as dragons without the fire thing. 297 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:39.359 And it was two different editions of the Bob Jones 298 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:47.279 textbook that was advocating the fire breathing. It's sad to 299 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:53.119 see that in a science book. It's also sad to 300 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:58.519 see dinosaurs being touted as the dragons of legend in 301 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:04.920 these so called science books, considering that dinosaurs went extinct 302 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:09.880 sixty six million years ago. So these are the sorts 303 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:11.319 of things that are being taught that. 304 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.559 Tell me about you know, there are animals that have 305 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.519 explosive properties, and I maybe you should we should talk 306 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:21.720 a little bit about how creation is. Talk about the 307 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:22.599 Bombardier Beetle. 308 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:31.480 Oh yes, Oh that is a wow capital W. 309 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:35.279 Wow is the. 310 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:39.000 Word that comes to mind with their their literature on 311 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:42.240 the Bombardier Beetle, which is full of misinformation, but. 312 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:43.640 It's so exciting to read. 313 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.799 Look, all the Bombardier Beetle does is shoot hot liquid. 314 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:51.160 That's it. Of course it's hotter than usual for a 315 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.200 liquid that comes out of an animal's body. 316 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:54.680 But it's just hot liquid. 317 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:59.200 There's no explosion, there's no spark, there's no flame, there's 318 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.400 no fire, there's none of that exciting stuff. And yet 319 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:05.079 when you read the younger creationist literature on the bombardy 320 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:10.440 or beetle, whenever the dragon comes up, almost every single 321 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.720 mention of it will say either there's a spark, or 322 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:17.079 there's an explosion, or it generates flame. And one one 323 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:21.680 author even said that if these two chemicals met inside 324 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.480 the animal's body, it would blow itself to smithereens. 325 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:25.680 That's an actual quote. 326 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.000 It is, it is, I've seen that. 327 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:29.480 Yeah, yes, and loony tunes again. 328 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.599 Right, there's no basis for any of that. 329 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:33.359 In reality. 330 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:35.400 All it does I accidentally stepped on a bomb of 331 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:36.880 your beetle and it blew my foot off. 332 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:40.319 I guess that's what they're expecting. 333 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.599 Yeah, I think so, I really do. I think that's 334 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.000 what they think would happen. Yeah, but what really happened. 335 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:47.240 Sorry I didn't mean to interrupt. 336 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:51.279 Oh yeah, all that happens is the the the animal 337 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:56.759 has two chemicals that meet inside it its body or 338 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:01.279 very close to the exit and when they meet, they 339 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:05.279 react and it's an exothermic reaction, so it generates some heat, 340 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:11.599 and so when the resulting liquid flies out, it's hot. 341 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.319 But you know it's not going to give you third 342 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:14.759 degree burns or anything. 343 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.720 It's it's not that hot. 344 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.079 It's like if you have a dry leaf nearby, it 345 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:23.400 will not catch fire. 346 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:28.119 Uh, it's so not Starship Troopers, it's not. 347 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:32.960 Okay, the point, if. 348 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:37.200 You're using the Bombardier beetles as a basis for saying, 349 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.000 look what animals can do, then the most you could 350 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.680 say about what a dinosaur might have been able to do. 351 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.960 That's like what a bomber deer beetle does is maybe 352 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:51.599 yack up some liquid that's just extra hot and could 353 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.799 keep your hands warm and toasty in the winter. But 354 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.599 you know they won't be burned as the the flesh 355 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:02.920 won't be coming off your fingers and there will be 356 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.720 no smoke there. I look at the videos of the 357 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.279 the Bumbardier beetle on YouTube and you'll see that when 358 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:14.279 the when the liquid comes out, if it's back lit, 359 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:20.039 it ultimately becomes this fine spray that it's rather lovely. 360 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:22.880 When back lit, it's this nice mist but you know 361 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:24.079 there's there's no smoke. 362 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:24.960 There's no fire. 363 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:29.200 Wow, how coolould cool would that be if there were? 364 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:33.079 But'd be fantastic? Yeah, yeah, I mean in sex are well. 365 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:36.880 I mean biology is amazing, evolution is amazing, and and 366 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.960 I love you know, we haven't talked about it much. 367 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.200 I'll probably talk about it in the intro to these episodes. 368 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:48.000 But natural selection is such a beautiful explanation for diversity, 369 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.680 but it needs a lot of time, and so arguing 370 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.480 for a young Earth is one way to argue that 371 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:58.240 if it can't be true, there hasn't been enough time. 372 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.920 So that which is interesting in its own but wrong. 373 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:05.720 And yes, I think, you know, I get the appeal. 374 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:08.400 That is an exciting world that they live in. It's 375 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:11.039 just not the real world. I mean, it feels like 376 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:14.440 we're What we have ultimately is an epistemological difference for 377 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:16.200 where do you get your evidence and what do you 378 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:22.359 think constitutes truth? And I liked it when we started 379 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.519 this show. There was a lot of argument to be had, 380 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:29.559 but I didn't feel like we were in danger of 381 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:36.200 losing to lunacy. And it feels like the rational evidence 382 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:40.559 based epistemology has sort of been subverted, and I think 383 00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:44.400 this is just one of many battlefronts where it feels 384 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:47.640 like we're losing, And I wonder what do you think 385 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:51.359 about our chances here? Like is your book? I mean, 386 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:53.480 I think your book is great and be really useful 387 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:55.640 for finding this one particular front, and I hope people 388 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.519 pick it up for that purpose. But how do you 389 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.799 think about the bigger picture? You know, what do you 390 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:05.119 think it is we're sliding into this pseudoscientific framework all 391 00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:06.279 across the world right now. 392 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:11.920 Well, if you take a look at the literature of 393 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:17.200 past centuries, and I think you will find that probably 394 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:25.039 the ratio of people who base their opinions on observation 395 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:33.000 and fact versus the the folks who base it on 396 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:38.799 what's exciting and unrealistic, the ratio is probably held constant 397 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:41.759 through the centuries. At least that's my impression. 398 00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:43.920 I hope you're right. I hope you're right. 399 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:46.160 Yeah, I don't think it's getting worse. I think it's 400 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:48.480 just staying the same, and we can try to make 401 00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:52.799