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Speaker 9: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 9: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 9: written about them. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK
Speaker 9: every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 9: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 9: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 3: Good evening.
Speaker 10: There are murders, and there are murders. There are bodies,
Speaker 10: and there are bodies, and then there's wet lies waiting
Speaker 10: behind the front door of the little brick house with
Speaker 10: its blind strawn and air conditioner, droning on working against
Speaker 10: the oppressive Hunter Valley heat, A glimpse into the dark
Speaker 10: cockroach corners of the soul. A lot of the blokes
Speaker 10: at the scene that day will never be the same.
Speaker 10: On February twenty nine, two thousand, Catherine Knight committed an
Speaker 10: unspeakable act. A mother of four and a grandmother, she
Speaker 10: seduced and then stabbed John Price thirty seven times. A
Speaker 10: former abatar worker, she skinned him a loving partner. She
Speaker 10: cooked him with vegetables, making a soup with his head
Speaker 10: made gravy, left him on plates for his family. Why Price?
Speaker 10: He was her de facto and he wanted out.
Speaker 3: She didn't like that.
Speaker 10: People said that most of the time kept Catherine Knight
Speaker 10: seemed normal until she got angry. She was judged to
Speaker 10: be legally sane when she committed a crime so horrible
Speaker 10: that the media shied away from the detail. Journalist Peter
Speaker 10: Laylor covered the trowel and wanted to know what made
Speaker 10: Knight go way over the borderline. In this unflinching account,
Speaker 10: he uncovers the lairs of her dysfunction, opening the door
Speaker 10: of eighty four Saint Andrew's Street and taking us into
Speaker 10: the lives of Knight's ex partners, her family, and the
Speaker 10: locals of Aberdeen, North South Wales. Catherine Knight is currently
Speaker 10: the only woman serving a life sentence in Australia. She
Speaker 10: is never to be released. Bloodstained the true story of
Speaker 10: Catherine Knight, the mother and Avatar worker who became Australia's
Speaker 10: worst female killer, with my special guest, journalist and author
Speaker 10: Peter Laylor. Welcome to the program, and thank you for
Speaker 10: greeting this interview. Peter Laylor, Hi, Dan, good evening, Peter,
Speaker 10: Thank you very much for joining me all the way
Speaker 10: from Australia.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 10: We have an incredible tale here and this highly anticipated
Speaker 10: and somehow or other, I didn't know of this storytelling.
Speaker 10: Recently thanks to one of the fans of true murder
Speaker 10: brought to my attention this incredible story and your wonderful book.
Speaker 10: Let's first question, what tell us the circumstances in which
Speaker 10: you came to want to and became the author of
Speaker 10: this book Bloodstain? What brought you to this story?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I was a reluctant author. I mustered meet
Speaker 3: I was a journalist at the time looking for the
Speaker 3: newspaper in Sydney, which is known as the Daily Telegraph.
Speaker 3: It's quite a large tabloid newspaper. I was a feature
Speaker 3: writer and I was sent to Newcastle, which is a
Speaker 3: town to the north of Sydney, a sort of coal
Speaker 3: mining industrial town, to cover Cather Knight's sentencing hearing. Up
Speaker 3: until that point, very few people knew much about this crime,
Speaker 3: a little bit like you anyway, Because of a sort
Speaker 3: of series of circumstances, it actually hadn't been in the media.
Speaker 3: One good reason was she was charged with murder immediately
Speaker 3: and the details were suppressed. But one of the local
Speaker 3: newspapers up on the New England Highway reported some of
Speaker 3: the details, and there was quite there was public outrage
Speaker 3: that such things would be in the newspaper, and I
Speaker 3: think that everybody got a little bit squeamish about it.
Speaker 3: So I went up there covered then and seeing wrote
Speaker 3: some pieces of newspaper and got a phone call from
Speaker 3: a publishing house. He said, would you like to write
Speaker 3: a book about it? My initial response was, who on
Speaker 3: earth we want to read that stuff? It is just
Speaker 3: so awful. They chuckled a little and said, well, you know,
Speaker 3: we really want to write a book that explores Catherine's
Speaker 3: life and how she got to that point. I said,
Speaker 3: well that sounds I'll give that a shot. But here
Speaker 3: we are, what fourteen years later, still talking about this book.
Speaker 3: It doesn't go away absolutely.
Speaker 10: Why don't you take us back as you do and
Speaker 10: talk about a little bit about Katherine Knight and her parents,
Speaker 10: Ken and Barbara. Just tell us a little bit about
Speaker 10: who these people are and as we talk about and
Speaker 10: we unfold the story of the upbringing of Katherine Knight.
Speaker 3: Well, these were people from what we call it, what's
Speaker 3: known as the Hunter. It's a very interesting area about
Speaker 3: two hours drive north of Sydney. On one side of
Speaker 3: the road you go off into the hills. There's beautiful wineries, estates,
Speaker 3: golf courses. You know, it's the playground of the rich.
Speaker 3: Australia's richest man, Kerry Packer had a polo farm up there.
Speaker 3: But on the other side of the highway it is
Speaker 3: coal mines, hard industry and a series of avatars up
Speaker 3: and up and down the small towns. In the past.
Speaker 3: Now I've got that industry has died. Catherine's parents were
Speaker 3: from that area. They were abatar workers. They were rough people,
Speaker 3: very rough people. Barb and Ken got together in very
Speaker 3: interesting circumstances. She left her husband and ran away with him.
Speaker 3: They followed work around the Abbatars up and down the highway.
Speaker 3: Had a number of children. I think there were six children,
Speaker 3: but they were spread around a little bit. She didn't
Speaker 3: take her first two children with her when she hooked
Speaker 3: up with her new husband. She had twins with him.
Speaker 3: Catherine's a twin. Her sister's name is Joy. And they
Speaker 3: settled into a little town called Aberdeen, which is between
Speaker 3: Muscle Brook and Scone. It's pretty rough little town. Highway
Speaker 3: runs right through the middle of it. It has two pubs.
Speaker 3: In Australia we always call them the Top Pub and
Speaker 3: the Bottom Pub. And they had a full and unfortunate life.
Speaker 3: They were fringe dwellers, uneducated people, very rough people, hard
Speaker 3: drinking people. Catherine grew up in an environment of terrible violence.
Speaker 3: Sexual violence was a norm in the home. It's not
Speaker 3: a norm, it wasn't uncommon, and she became a very
Speaker 3: disturbed little girl. In fact, the psychiatrist think that she
Speaker 3: possibly developed stress disorder from being sexually assaulted as a child,
Speaker 3: and that was within the family.
Speaker 10: When you talk about sexual violence, I want to get
Speaker 10: to the uniqueness of what you're talking about after reading
Speaker 10: you know, numbers of these books. We're talking about the
Speaker 10: sexual violence. What did Catherine enjoy and the rest of
Speaker 10: the family get to sea on a regular basis in
Speaker 10: terms of the sexual promiscuity between her parents, What did
Speaker 10: that encompass?
Speaker 3: Well, it's almost impossible to believe. I still struggle to
Speaker 3: deal with this, but Catherine gave this account of her
Speaker 3: life and it wasn't contradicted by her siblings either. If,
Speaker 3: as he did regularly, he was a man to send
Speaker 3: his wife or he demanded it, and he would quite
Speaker 3: often in front of children. In fact, on one occasion
Speaker 3: I've heard about, he knocked her out and raped her
Speaker 3: on the kitchen table with the children in the house.
Speaker 3: So it was a level of depravity. It's hard to fathom,
Speaker 3: absolutely hard to fathom, and I think that's perhaps what
Speaker 3: makes Catherine and her life so fascinating. I think we
Speaker 3: all of our lives thinking that, you know, most people
Speaker 3: are relatively normal, they don't stay too far from what's acceptable.
Speaker 3: We think that mad people commit violent crimes. We don't
Speaker 3: imagine that there are lives out there like that. We
Speaker 3: don't imagine what sort of a life Catherine knew as normal.
Speaker 3: I mean that was to her what a family was.
Speaker 3: A place where your father raped your mother, where your
Speaker 3: step brothers sexually assaulted you as a child, she understood
Speaker 3: very well. She knew very early in her life that
Speaker 3: sex and violence were connected. They went hand in hand.
Speaker 3: You didn't have one without the other.
Speaker 10: Now, when we talk about the avatar and the kind
Speaker 10: of employment that this family had, and everybody worked in
Speaker 10: the night family in the Abatoar, what is it exactly
Speaker 10: about the job that these people exceled at? Why was
Speaker 10: it that this family was so noted I guess being
Speaker 10: able to being able to handle this job. What was
Speaker 10: it about them that made them good workers at the abatire?
Speaker 3: Well, I think if I'm in India, don't you that
Speaker 3: the low the lowest casts are the casts that work
Speaker 3: with animals in sword houses? And I think in a
Speaker 3: similar way he the people that end up in avatars
Speaker 3: are pretty struggling to get a job anywhere else. There
Speaker 3: was good employment in those areas, in the coal mines,
Speaker 3: and it paid very well. But if you couldn't get
Speaker 3: a job in a coal mine, if you didn't have
Speaker 3: a proper education, you ended up in these places, which
Speaker 3: are terribly brutal places. And you'll find that there are
Speaker 3: two types of people that work in ambatwires. When you
Speaker 3: talk to avertwelve workers, there are those that endure it,
Speaker 3: that put up with it. It's not a pleasant environment
Speaker 3: in any way. But then there's a very small group
Speaker 3: of people who actually enjoy their work. They disturb everybody.
Speaker 3: They are people who have an asterisk next to them,
Speaker 3: and Catherine was one of these people. Katherine aspired all
Speaker 3: the life to work in the Abbatwise, she wanted to
Speaker 3: kill animals. She talked about nicking the veins in their
Speaker 3: necks to watch them bleed out. She spoke about her
Speaker 3: joy of removing the bones out of the flesh. She
Speaker 3: had a perverse fascination with dying animals and with dead animals,
Speaker 3: and with the products of dead animals. She also, unfortunately,
Speaker 3: had a fascination with her knives. She was very skilled
Speaker 3: with her knives. Avatar workers have very sharp, lethal knives.
Speaker 3: Catherine loved hers. She ended up losing the job in
Speaker 3: the Abatid because she got injured and she ended up
Speaker 3: on welfare. And you can in Australia live a reasonable
Speaker 3: life on welfare if you have enough children, which she manufactured.
Speaker 3: So she was a little bit disappointed about that. But
Speaker 3: the interesting thing was she kept her knives. Not only
Speaker 3: did she keep her k eyes, much the horror of
Speaker 3: her first husband, David Callett, she actually kept them above
Speaker 3: the bed on the wall, almost a threat to the
Speaker 3: men that came in there. And she was a woman
Speaker 3: of particular violence toward me, as all of her partners discovered,
Speaker 3: and as all of her partners told me when I
Speaker 3: was researching this book.
Speaker 10: Now you, in that researching for this book, you speak
Speaker 10: to many of her ex partners at great length, and
Speaker 10: of course the very cooperative, you have incredible access to him.
Speaker 10: So let's talk about some of her behavior leading up
Speaker 10: to meeting David Kellett, and the kind of people that
Speaker 10: she did meet and what they said about her behavior,
Speaker 10: and at the same time, what she characterized the relationship
Speaker 10: as in terms of the behavior.
Speaker 3: I thought the hindsight's a wonderful thing. But there were
Speaker 3: signs very early on that Catherine was going to be
Speaker 3: a significant problem. She was a violent child at school,
Speaker 3: She had violent tantrums, and when she was very young
Speaker 3: she hooked up with David calot. He was a very
Speaker 3: small man and she's a very big strong woman. She
Speaker 3: could knock a man out with a punch, you know.
Speaker 3: She was very good splitting logs with an axe. She
Speaker 3: was an intimidating woman. David learned very early on in
Speaker 3: their relationship that she had certain demands and unless they
Speaker 3: were met, she responded with violence. Before he agreed to
Speaker 3: marry her, it was an alcohol wedding. He was so
Speaker 3: drunk that I think he could barely stand at the ceremony.
Speaker 3: She drove him there on the back of her motorbike.
Speaker 3: She actually picked him up from somewhere where he was
Speaker 3: drinking and forced him to come along and marry her.
Speaker 3: Her mother said to him, took him aside and said,
Speaker 3: you need to be very very careful. Was a person
Speaker 3: like my daughter. Never ever upset her, never or never
Speaker 3: cheat on her, because she will kill you. David took
Speaker 3: it in the Australa. He thought she was a bit fiery.
Speaker 3: But then on the first night of their wedding, they
Speaker 3: were very young, they were teenagers. They consummated the marriage
Speaker 3: and they probably consummated and they had sex a couple
Speaker 3: of times, David told me, and then he fell asleep
Speaker 3: because he'd been drinking all day. And that's what me do,
Speaker 3: isn't it. The next thing he knew, she had him
Speaker 3: pinned to the bed with a knife in her hands,
Speaker 3: and she was in a state of apoplexy. She was
Speaker 3: screaming at him and she said, my mother told me
Speaker 3: that on her wedding night they had sex seven times,
Speaker 3: and she was in this state of fury because he'd
Speaker 3: let her down and they'd only ever had sex twice.
Speaker 3: And she was holding a nice to his throat and
Speaker 3: he actually thought he was going to be killed on
Speaker 3: his wedding night and not performing in bed, which almost
Speaker 3: sounds like a black comed He doesn't it, But the
Speaker 3: poor guy was scared, scared out of his wits. It
Speaker 3: was very interesting that the former partners were keen to
Speaker 3: talk to me, because these are tough guys. I mean,
Speaker 3: we're talking coal miners, avatire workers, truck drivers, hard drinking
Speaker 3: Australian men from small towns, poorly educated, tough blokes. But
Speaker 3: when I tracked them all down, they all had stories
Speaker 3: to tell. A terrible domestic violence perpetrated against them. Two
Speaker 3: of them wept as they told me stories of what
Speaker 3: Catherine had done to her. It's a very disconcerting experience
Speaker 3: to sit across from a tough Aussie by crying as
Speaker 3: he tells you how brutal his wife was to him.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's done to a degree, it's unbelievable. It
Speaker 3: doesn't add up, doesn't fit into your realm of experience.
Speaker 3: And in fact, that's in many ways how she got
Speaker 3: away with it, most of a lot, because nobody would
Speaker 3: ever believe those men when they told their stories. They
Speaker 3: wanted to tell their stories. They were very teen to
Speaker 3: take me aside and say, look, this is what I
Speaker 3: went through. And to a man, they all felt terrible
Speaker 3: sympathy for the partner that she united, because I think
Speaker 3: they all saw themselves at one time or another that
Speaker 3: that could have been then, but they docked that bullet.
Speaker 10: As such, let's talk about for a great example of
Speaker 10: not only this violence exhibited towards men her boyfriends. Again
Speaker 10: you talk about the paranoia and fear of rejection, and
Speaker 10: of course why not they have children, and so in
Speaker 10: nineteen seven six, in August, you talk about a particular incident,
Speaker 10: very very strange. Tell us about Melissa in August in
Speaker 10: eighteen seventy six.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, this is David Callitt didn't heed the warning
Speaker 3: from Catherine's mother and was having an affair with another
Speaker 3: woman in town, and Catherine was starting to become aware
Speaker 3: of this. David realized that the only way he was
Speaker 3: going to get away with this was to leave town,
Speaker 3: and he left town with another woman and took off
Speaker 3: up the highway any woman. They had a young child.
Speaker 3: I think Melissa wasn't even one year old at the time.
Speaker 3: Catherine was distraught, as any young, sing young mother would
Speaker 3: be in that situation. Her partner had left her and
Speaker 3: she'd been holding the baby literally, but her response, her
Speaker 3: response was so over the top that that detries imagination.
Speaker 3: She went. She was seen walking down the main street
Speaker 3: of the town with pushing the baby in the pram,
Speaker 3: howling uncontrollably and swinging the pram from one side of
Speaker 3: the street to the other. Everybody in Aberdeen was frightened
Speaker 3: of Catherine Knight, frightened of the night, but particularly Catherine Knight,
Speaker 3: and they just got out of her way and Catherine disappeared.
Speaker 3: Nobody I don't think anyone stuck their no, isn't it
Speaker 3: because I don't think anyone one of the consequences of
Speaker 3: that intruding. Catherine took the baby and placed the baby
Speaker 3: on the railway tracks, which it's the coal train runs
Speaker 3: through Aberdeen and it's down a siding. Nobody goes there usually,
Speaker 3: and she left and her clear intention was for the
Speaker 3: baby to be run over by the cold tame. Fortunately
Speaker 3: for Melissa Well, two veteran who was a little bit
Speaker 3: of a hobo lived outside the town in a makeshift shack.
Speaker 3: He was wandering along the train tracks that day and
Speaker 3: found a baby before the train arrived. Some people say
Speaker 3: that the train was minutes away. I would they have been
Speaker 3: able to confirm that, so he rescued the baby. In
Speaker 3: the meantime, Catherine was its insane with grief and rage
Speaker 3: and was picked up by the police and they took
Speaker 3: her to a psychiatric institution overnight. I spoke to the
Speaker 3: policeman's wife about the situation. She said she felt terribly
Speaker 3: sorry for this girl, but her behavior was vile to
Speaker 3: her language and her aggression were off the scale. Somehow,
Speaker 3: she checked herself out of the psychiatric institution and came
Speaker 3: back to town the following day and she resolved, which
Speaker 3: she resolved to have a revenge on her husband, who's
Speaker 3: left her, so she went to the local. First of all,
Speaker 3: she wandered into the house of a girl she went
Speaker 3: to school. It's with a knife. She took the elderly mother,
Speaker 3: the teenage daughter and the young son hostage, put them
Speaker 3: in a car and said, you will drive me to
Speaker 3: Queensland where my husband is up over the border, and
Speaker 3: I'm going to kill him. They were petrified, naturally. At
Speaker 3: one point the teenage daughter tried to run away Catherine
Speaker 3: chaster and threw it to the ground in the front
Speaker 3: yard and nicked and very sort of deliberately nicked her
Speaker 3: face with one of these knives that are so sharp,
Speaker 3: and said get back into the house. Before she went
Speaker 3: up the highway, they stopped the car at a service station.
Speaker 3: There's some dispute about this, but Catherine says that she
Speaker 3: decided that she was going to kill the mechanic the
Speaker 3: service station, the local service station, because the mechanic had
Speaker 3: fixed her husband's car that he'd used to get away
Speaker 3: from her, so he was involved in this betrayal. The
Speaker 3: hostage situation sort escalated quite quickly there, and in the
Speaker 3: end the police managed arrived, fortunately because the young boy
Speaker 3: escaped and managed to alert the police in town. She
Speaker 3: was arrested again, taken back to a psychiatric institution, and
Speaker 3: committed Strangely enough, David felt very sorry for her when
Speaker 3: he heard what had happened, and along with his mother,
Speaker 3: some weeks later, drove down to this psychiatric institution and
Speaker 3: checked her out, and they recommenced their married life. With
Speaker 3: all of the partners, you find that the violence or
Speaker 3: the excess of casine, they have some sympathy with her.
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Speaker 3: For her and I return after acts of violence. Calvi
Speaker 3: just said he felt sorry for her, He felt guilty,
Speaker 3: He felt sorry, so he took her back.
Speaker 10: Part of this taking back is that she is great
Speaker 10: at making things up to her partners, isn't she? And
Speaker 10: she is very I guess, sexually dynamic partner to these people,
Speaker 10: isn't she.
Speaker 3: Yes, I have to be a little hesitant about the
Speaker 3: way that repeating what the men said to me, because
Speaker 3: I did. I asked Saunders, the second partner, and call
Speaker 3: it the first why they went back? The sex was fantastic,
Speaker 3: was the basic answer. And she could be a caring, devoted,
Speaker 3: loving person. What's going on here? She has borderline personality disorder.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if all of your listeners will be
Speaker 3: familiar with that. It's in the days, and it doesn't
Speaker 3: sound like a serious disorder, but believe me, it is.
Speaker 3: It's very difficult to treat, and it makes your life
Speaker 3: very problematic if you have it. It's often a reaction
Speaker 3: to post traumatics, to stress, early trauma early in your life.
Speaker 3: She had post traumatic stress sort of too. They think,
Speaker 3: what happens is you have this absolute fear of separation,
Speaker 3: of somebody leaving you, of somebody betraying you, and you
Speaker 3: will react in it. You will react with extraordinary emotion
Speaker 3: to the slightest insult insults being things like failing to
Speaker 3: ring on time or come home on time, or perhaps
Speaker 3: talking to another woman in the pub. That's an active
Speaker 3: betrayal that in Catherine she responds like most people have
Speaker 3: bought in an boarderline personality disorder are upset by this,
Speaker 3: but Catherine responds with violence. Another element of borderline personality
Speaker 3: disorder is that they will fix on their partner and
Speaker 3: they will love their partner with a similar sort of
Speaker 3: extreme passion. They are very very parts. I will do
Speaker 3: everything for you, Catsain Coked claimed washed she was the
Speaker 3: perfect sort of housewife in a way, perfect partner if
Speaker 3: you have looked the violence.
Speaker 10: Now. The other characteristics of these relationships are that she
Speaker 10: does things like accuses all of her partners. But she
Speaker 10: accuses David Kellett of cheating on her, But at the
Speaker 10: same time it's ironic that she's also accused of cheating
Speaker 10: by Dave. So tell us the real information on whether
Speaker 10: and what from your research, whether what the real situation
Speaker 10: was in terms of infidelity by both partners.
Speaker 3: Yes, David god Rest, he saw because he's dead now,
Speaker 3: he was not a faithful partner. He had a number
Speaker 3: of affairs. He had an affair with the girl next
Speaker 3: door or and almost got caught because unbelievably she left
Speaker 3: her bra in Catherine's bed, and David somehow came up
Speaker 3: with her doy to excuse that away, but naturally he
Speaker 3: was under suspicion all the time, and for quite good reason.
Speaker 3: Catherine is not prone to that sort of behavior, that
Speaker 3: sort of indiscriminate sort of sexual partner's indiscriminate cheating. What
Speaker 3: she will do, and what people with borderline personality disorder
Speaker 3: are prone to do, is swap trains. They will be
Speaker 3: absolutely in love with somebody up until the point they
Speaker 3: will meet somebody else, and then they transfer all of
Speaker 3: their affection and emotion to the next person. It's as
Speaker 3: if the last person didn't exist and they transferred totally.
Speaker 3: Catherine did that a number of times as she moved
Speaker 3: from one partner to another's through life, and yes, she
Speaker 3: ended up taking well, she left David. I don't think
Speaker 3: she was having an affair at the time, but very
Speaker 3: soon after, it's actually hard to pin down the timeline
Speaker 3: on that. Very soon after she'd taken up with another bloke,
Speaker 3: another very hard drinking mcman who worked as a mechanic
Speaker 3: in the coal mines up in the next town a
Speaker 3: chat by the name of David Saunders. Like Calott, very friendly, likable,
Speaker 3: knock about bossie By. Also, like Caltt, Saunders has died.
Speaker 3: Since Katsin has tended to outlive almost all of her partners,
Speaker 3: so must all the men in this story are dead
Speaker 3: or were not in a very good state because of
Speaker 3: her exposure to her.
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Speaker 10: just alluded to and introduced him. We're going to take
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Speaker 10: we talked introduced David Saunders, her next partner. You talked
Speaker 10: about him being a hard drinker, also another small town
Speaker 10: tough guy. Tell us what the differences were with David Saunders, despite,
Speaker 10: among other things, his stature. But tell us the differences
Speaker 10: with David Saunders and this relationship.
Speaker 3: Just before I answer your question, Mother's Day reminded me
Speaker 3: of something that I think was quite important to involved.
Speaker 3: When cal It picked Catherine up from the Influencer from
Speaker 3: the Asylumn to type her back, he was with his
Speaker 3: mother and I had Catherine in the car, and they
Speaker 3: stopped at Catherine's parents' house to pick up some things
Speaker 3: because they were going to go to live with Carlott's
Speaker 3: mother for a little while. When they got there, they
Speaker 3: pulled up the car and there was an incident and
Speaker 3: Katherine's mother saw Carlott in the car and came running
Speaker 3: out of the house and he was grabbed him. He
Speaker 3: was in the passenger seat and tried to stroddle him,
Speaker 3: tried to actually choke him for leaving her daughter, and
Speaker 3: she wouldn't let God. Catherine got out of the back
Speaker 3: seat of the car, told her to stop. She didn't
Speaker 3: stop and knocked her mother out with a single punch.
Speaker 3: Bizarre scenes, absolutely bizarre things. Calott's mother, who was from
Speaker 3: a very nice lady, from a nice background, sat there
Speaker 3: and had never seen anything like at in her life.
Speaker 3: She was in the car too. They couldn't get away
Speaker 3: from there quick enough, but there was just a little
Speaker 3: slice of life and the things Saunders. Saunders was like Callot,
Speaker 3: a hard drinking man he loved. He was a little
Speaker 3: bit taller, so not as physically intimidated by Catherine. Callot
Speaker 3: got out of the relationship reasonably lightly. He had his
Speaker 3: skull fractured by a frying pan for having come home
Speaker 3: too late from the pub one night. Saunders had a
Speaker 3: bad habit of coming home from the pub later than
Speaker 3: he said he would. Catherine's anxiety about separation would kick him.
Speaker 3: One night, he came in the front door of her
Speaker 3: house with a six pack of beer under one hand,
Speaker 3: and he opened the door with the other hand to
Speaker 3: see Catherine standing there, and she had been ironing the
Speaker 3: clothes at that point, and she greeted him with the
Speaker 3: iron and hand and punched him in the face with
Speaker 3: the iron as he walked through the door. He told
Speaker 3: me that he had burn marks with steam holes down
Speaker 3: the side of his face from the greeting from Catherine,
Speaker 3: all because he was fifty minutes late from the pub,
Speaker 3: which was about two blocks away. He had another terrible
Speaker 3: incident where she suspected he was cheating on her. She
Speaker 3: got it into a head that he was seeing another woman.
Speaker 3: I think he was. She told him that she had
Speaker 3: enough and she was going to show him what would
Speaker 3: happen to him if he ever if she caught him cheating,
Speaker 3: and she walked out the back of the house. He
Speaker 3: wasn't quite sure what she was doing. He followed her
Speaker 3: out the back and looked out. It was dark, and
Speaker 3: he had a dingo pup. I don't know if you
Speaker 3: know dingo, said, a native Australian dog, A beautiful dog.
Speaker 3: He had a dingo pup and she was holding an
Speaker 3: in her arms, and he couldn't quite understand why, because
Speaker 3: she had no affection at all for animals Katherine. In fact,
Speaker 3: there are stories of her swerving the car as they
Speaker 3: drove to hit cats and dogs. He looked more closely
Speaker 3: and Catherine had slipped the dog's throat with a kitchen
Speaker 3: knife as a warning to Saunders, what would happen to
Speaker 3: him should he have a cheek on her. Another time,
Speaker 3: one of his mates told me that he he fronted
Speaker 3: up to their house to get a lift to at
Speaker 3: work that morning and said, lookt before we go, you
Speaker 3: got to help me out if you've got a needle
Speaker 3: and thread. And the guy said, why you've torn your clothes?
Speaker 3: What is a mailor you know? We work in a mind. No, no,
Speaker 3: no no, and opened his shirt and Catherine had stabbed
Speaker 3: him in the chest. He didn't want to go to
Speaker 3: the hospital, so he got his mate to sew him
Speaker 3: up there and they went to work that day.
Speaker 10: One of the characteristics of Catherine is to sort of
Speaker 10: impede any kind of investigation or any potential charge. When
Speaker 10: she assaults her mate, she actually goes to police with
Speaker 10: a story in advance to try to cover any kind
Speaker 10: of potential charges, doesn't she She's quite clever in that way,
Speaker 10: very clever.
Speaker 3: Very clever, and in fact, this has very unfortunate consequences.
Speaker 3: When she does kill her partner, she will run immediately
Speaker 3: to the police and allege that she's the victim of
Speaker 3: a domestic violence assault that happened after she killed the
Speaker 3: pop she ran to the place and said that she
Speaker 3: was in fear of her loss, that he chased her around.
Speaker 3: It happened every time there was a serious incident. What
Speaker 3: policeman is ever going to believe that these men being
Speaker 3: assaulted by their women, even if they do try and
Speaker 3: say it, you know, they just haven't got a hope
Speaker 3: of being believed. He's natural for the police to think, well,
Speaker 3: we need to protect the woman, not the man, because
Speaker 3: that's the way these things work. So it was also
Speaker 3: a reflection the fact that she's a victim. She had
Speaker 3: constructed a life for herself where she is the victim
Speaker 3: of men. It dates back in some ways to being
Speaker 3: a victim of sexual violence as a child of her
Speaker 3: You know, she alleges that her stepbrother sexually abused her.
Speaker 3: He's never denied it. I wrote it in the book,
Speaker 3: and he had every chance to deny it, but he didn't.
Speaker 3: So she often spoke about men, men getting their way
Speaker 3: with her, and how she had to protect herself and
Speaker 3: protect her children from the sexual violence of men. I
Speaker 3: actually think she believed it. I don't think she was
Speaker 3: cynical about these things. If she assaulted, then she had
Speaker 3: a very good reason to assault them, and she ran
Speaker 3: to the police, and she got protected on every occasion.
Speaker 3: Only once, I think was there a question of pressing
Speaker 3: charges against her, and that was when she had caved
Speaker 3: in Callot's skull with a skillet. She actually fractured his
Speaker 3: skull and he was in hospital. The police attended and said,
Speaker 3: we think you should press charges against her. He decided
Speaker 3: not to do it. But that was the one time
Speaker 3: in a long history of violence where perhaps the law
Speaker 3: got the right end of the tale.
Speaker 10: Now, she always used this idea that when you say
Speaker 10: that she believed it. But she did accuse all her
Speaker 10: partners of or most of them, of actual abuse of
Speaker 10: her children.
Speaker 3: That was an emerging theme. She certainly she certainly accused Price,
Speaker 3: who was the man that she murdered, of sexually abusing
Speaker 3: her children, and she did use that as a tactic.
Speaker 3: She never accused from memory, she never accused Calot of
Speaker 3: this or Thunders she was reasonably fond of those but
Speaker 3: as she became more desperate in her life, she did
Speaker 3: try those things, and she was increasingly desperate in the
Speaker 3: lead up to the crime, and was accusing the Price
Speaker 3: of sexual assault of her children. She was always she
Speaker 3: was hyper vigilant around her children. I mean, she was terribly,
Speaker 3: terribly rough with them in the way she spoke to
Speaker 3: them and treated them. The neighbors shuddered in horror the
Speaker 3: things that she heard them saying to her children. She
Speaker 3: was a very stern and stern mother. But in her head,
Speaker 3: as I said earlier, they were all potential victims of
Speaker 3: sexual answer. I don't think at any stage where any
Speaker 3: of the children sexually abused. Certainly there's no suggestion that
Speaker 3: Price had, as she accused him, sexually abused the youngest woman.
Speaker 3: She did leaven note when she killed him, alleging that,
Speaker 3: but there's no proof, no suggestion from anybody that that happened.
Speaker 10: You mentioned the thing that happens that people notice when
Speaker 10: Catherine becomes unhinged. What is the physical characteristic that people
Speaker 10: notice when she does lose her grip?
Speaker 3: Well, she's a hecessos terrible cliche, but she's a redheaded
Speaker 3: woman with freckles. She was dubbed the speckled hen By
Speaker 3: her last part.
Speaker 10: She.
Speaker 3: Would become very rare. She would flush with anger and
Speaker 3: become and become completely completely irrational with the violence. You
Speaker 3: could not go near her. If you did, you were
Speaker 3: in trouble. They were. It's probably the only sights. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: I've never seen her angry. The guys that did see
Speaker 3: are angry. As I said, Sometimes they went they just
Speaker 3: as they described these rages that she was in. But
Speaker 3: obviously she would calm down very quickly too, to actually
Speaker 3: assemble the story and get to the police and cover
Speaker 3: her track as she always did.
Speaker 10: Yeah, as you read in the book too, that these
Speaker 10: partners left in this world of chaos, but somehow or other,
Speaker 10: she in better times convinced them that everything was okay.
Speaker 10: So she had at least a couple of times where
Speaker 10: the people left when you would think, jeez, that there's
Speaker 10: no way that he's coming back. And he did come back.
Speaker 10: His partners came back, didn't they.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing that I needed to
Speaker 3: tease out in the book. And I'm not sure if
Speaker 3: I did it successfully or not, because it still baffles me.
Speaker 3: To be honest with you, and it was the thing
Speaker 3: that first struck me when I walked into the courtroom
Speaker 3: and saw her. We believe that somebody who commits a
Speaker 3: crime like Catherine did is basically a hannibal lector type.
Speaker 3: We wanted to think that they're insane, that they're an animal,
Speaker 3: and that you know they're going to be trussed up.
Speaker 3: But you walked into the courtroom, she was quite an
Speaker 3: ordinary looking woman. She wore a nice frock, her hair
Speaker 3: was done, she had a crucifix that she wore around
Speaker 3: her neck. You wouldn't have thought twice if you walked
Speaker 3: past her in the street. She could have passed herself
Speaker 3: off as a librarian. You know. She a very ordinary
Speaker 3: looking person. And what's difficult for us to actually get
Speaker 3: our heads around is that somebody who could raise four children,
Speaker 3: own their own home, lived a reasonably normal life if
Speaker 3: we excite the violence. Somebody who operated among us looked
Speaker 3: like us, perhaps was rougher than most of us, and
Speaker 3: had some edge about her that unnerved you. But that
Speaker 3: somebody could commit a crime like she did, that's what's astounding.
Speaker 3: And that she could have, as you say, she had
Speaker 3: three partners, she had four children with those three partners,
Speaker 3: they kept coming back. These guys, I mean the third partner,
Speaker 3: who we haven't discussed yet children with. He was very
Speaker 3: distressed when she left him. He felt like he was
Speaker 3: driving up and down. He actually became unhinged from the separation.
Speaker 3: So we're not talking about a monster. We're talking about
Speaker 3: somebody who managed to get by in an ordinary life
Speaker 3: and managed to make men love her because they did
Speaker 3: love her.
Speaker 10: Let's talk about you mentioned John Chillingworth. Tell us what
Speaker 10: was different about that relationship before we talk about the
Speaker 10: most important relationship is with John Price pricy. So what
Speaker 10: was it about John Chillingworth that was different than the
Speaker 10: other relationships and how does it lead to having Catherine
Speaker 10: with John Price?
Speaker 3: Well, I think one interesting part of the segue from
Speaker 3: Saunders to Chillingworth is that she has They have a
Speaker 3: daughter together, Saunders and Catherine, And again she jumps trains,
Speaker 3: she disappears, she takes off. He doesn't know where she's gone.
Speaker 3: He also disappears. He lays down because he doesn't want
Speaker 3: her finding him. It's a strange sort of standoff. But
Speaker 3: what she does. She tells her their daughter that her
Speaker 3: father is dead, that he's died, and it's a very
Speaker 3: strange scene. Or the Toddler when Captain's driving the daughter
Speaker 3: through muscle book one day and they stop at the
Speaker 3: light and the daughter starts to yell from the back
Speaker 3: of the car, Dad, he's not dead, Mummy. There he is.
Speaker 3: There he is. And there was her father walking along
Speaker 3: the street, the father that she thought was dead. What
Speaker 3: sort of cruelty does a woman have to tell her
Speaker 3: child that her father's dead when in fact he isn't.
Speaker 3: But he was certainly dead to Catherine. She was sick
Speaker 3: of him, and she moved on some chilling lot.
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Speaker 3: Chillingworth had very serious drinking problem had when I met
Speaker 3: him and interviewed him to the books. He joined Alcoholics
Speaker 3: Anonymous and hadn't had a drink for many years. He
Speaker 3: was a little different to the other men. He wasn't
Speaker 3: as rough. He lived at home with his mother. He
Speaker 3: didn't have a lot of experience with women. But their
Speaker 3: relationship maybe in some ways he was a little too
Speaker 3: tame for Castine because their relationship didn't endure very long.
Speaker 3: I mean she got pregnant very early. With him, as
Speaker 3: she did with all of the blokes. That was one way,
Speaker 3: it's a terrible thing to say, I think of Myst Wilbert.
Speaker 3: That was a way that she cemented her relationship with
Speaker 3: the men was by having a child, because she knew
Speaker 3: if she had a child with them, they would hang
Speaker 3: around and they wou porter and that would be their responsibility.
Speaker 3: They had a child very early, a young boy. But
Speaker 3: they had a violent relationship. But I think that he
Speaker 3: may have been one of the two who actually gave
Speaker 3: back as good as he got with Catherine. It's hard
Speaker 3: to know. She had him charge once and he was
Speaker 3: put on an abo in the end again she up
Speaker 3: and left him. She just disappeared. She jumped trains again
Speaker 3: and started the last relationship of her life, perhaps the
Speaker 3: one she'd been building two for all those years through Calott,
Speaker 3: Saunders and Shillingworth. When she met John Price, who was
Speaker 3: more her sort of man. I might say he was
Speaker 3: not a violent man, Pricey, but he was a bloke
Speaker 3: spoke as we say down here. He drove big trucks
Speaker 3: in coal mines. He was a little guy again, nuggety
Speaker 3: hard drinker, had a couple of children to an earl
Speaker 3: from an earlier relationship. Still had a very good relationship
Speaker 3: with his first partner, who loved him dearly. Everybody loved
Speaker 3: this guy. There are stories that you would pull up
Speaker 3: people were passing through Aberdeen would stop at the Bottom
Speaker 3: pub where he drank, meet him and actually stay another
Speaker 3: night or two in town because they enjoyed his company
Speaker 3: so much. He was the light of the pub, a
Speaker 3: very happy, cheerful bloke. Women loved him. They wanted to
Speaker 3: mother in. He had a reasonably comfortable life. He had
Speaker 3: a small house up the road from the pub. Just
Speaker 3: if anyone's got the book at that's his house on
Speaker 3: the front cover of the book. Unremarkable house. He had
Speaker 3: shared custody of his children. His children liked him very much,
Speaker 3: so he had three children, actually had a son, and
Speaker 3: Catherine took up with him. That was the cause of
Speaker 3: much of amusement among the town's folks, who sort of
Speaker 3: said him, do you really know what he was getting
Speaker 3: yourself employe? And of course he did. Everybody knew the
Speaker 3: Night family, and everybody had heard tales about Kastrine. But
Speaker 3: he was initially charmed by her, as everybody.
Speaker 8: Was charmed by her ability to have a hot meal
Speaker 8: waiting for him when he got home from the pub,
Speaker 8: charmed by how good she was in bed, how loving
Speaker 8: she could be.
Speaker 3: But their relationship took a sour turn, as all of
Speaker 3: her relationships did.
Speaker 10: She didn't really like the relationship he had with his
Speaker 10: former wife Colleen, and he also didn't like the idea
Speaker 10: about the house. She always thought that he might will
Speaker 10: the house to her children. She had some ideas of that,
Speaker 10: and she really did like his job as a manor
Speaker 10: because as you read in a book, it's about one
Speaker 10: hundred thousand dollars per year. So tell us a little
Speaker 10: bit more about what her disagreement was with him over
Speaker 10: the house and Colleen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, look Price very close to Colleen, as I said,
Speaker 3: she resented this. She was jealous of this. She made
Speaker 3: scenes about this situation and Price. He really didn't need
Speaker 3: this grief in his life of a woman like it
Speaker 3: reached a point where she was more trouble than it
Speaker 3: was worth. I think he liked being a bachelor. He
Speaker 3: didn't mind the occasional meal being cooked for him, and
Speaker 3: he didn't mind sex when he got it. But I
Speaker 3: don't think he was willing. He was ready for her
Speaker 3: to move into his house, which she wanted to do,
Speaker 3: and in fact, by stealth, she did move in to
Speaker 3: his house when she had a house not more than
Speaker 3: two kilometers away on the highway, so she had her
Speaker 3: own home. And I think at some point we should
Speaker 3: talk about her home. But she believed that she had
Speaker 3: a relationship with him, and because she had a relationship
Speaker 3: with him, his house was her house. When push came
Speaker 3: to shove and he said, listen, honey, that's your house.
Speaker 3: This is my house. Let's call it quits. You know,
Speaker 3: you moved back home. I'm going to stay here. It's
Speaker 3: all over. She was incensed because she had this strange
Speaker 3: sense of entitlement, and she said, well, no, this your
Speaker 3: home is partially mine, by own half of it. She
Speaker 3: knew that he'd left it in his will to his children.
Speaker 3: She resented his children, the affection he had for them.
Speaker 3: She resented the fact that they would get the house.
Speaker 3: She resented the fact that he would not give her
Speaker 3: the house. And they squabbled for some time along these lines.
Speaker 3: I mean, and it's completely bizarre. She she has no
Speaker 3: legal right to this house at all, but in her
Speaker 3: mind she does. And then she started to demand a
Speaker 3: sum of money to go away, and he was desperate
Speaker 3: to get rid of her, but found it difficult to
Speaker 3: make the break, and she would reappear in his life,
Speaker 3: you know, sliping in the middle of the night, and
Speaker 3: he would be drunk and they would have sex and
Speaker 3: it was all very good, and she'd make him breakfast
Speaker 3: in the morning and go to work, and then he think,
Speaker 3: how am I going to get her out of my
Speaker 3: house again? You know, it was a very difficult situation
Speaker 3: and he became very stressed over it and by her behavior.
Speaker 10: Now you talk about in the book an incredible story
Speaker 10: because we'll I'll get you to explain what happens after
Speaker 10: all of this. But he tells her to get out,
Speaker 10: so she takes a video camera films a bunch of
Speaker 10: things that he has in the home. Also about what
Speaker 10: these things are and where she sends this video and
Speaker 10: what is the result of sending this video to someone.
Speaker 3: This is again it's her sense of and he's leaving her.
Speaker 3: He needs to be punished, So she borrows the family's
Speaker 3: video camera. She goes to the shed and he has
Speaker 3: some old first aid an old first aid kit in
Speaker 3: there that he's taken from the place where he works.
Speaker 3: The mind where he works. She videos this first aid
Speaker 3: hidden a couple of other little things at sort of
Speaker 3: petty theft, and sends the video to his boss, and
Speaker 3: he loses his job, a very very good job, a
Speaker 3: very high paid job in the coal mine. She had
Speaker 3: no qualms about doing this because he had upset her
Speaker 3: by wanting wanting her to leave, so she got back
Speaker 3: at him. That was one of her first acts of
Speaker 3: revenge towards him.
Speaker 10: Now, of course, he loses his job, and it's not
Speaker 10: like he can just get another job that easily. This
Speaker 10: is a prime job. And it's you talk about later
Speaker 10: that the abattoir business in Aberdeen just drives up. But
Speaker 10: what remarkably happens with Pricy and the relationship with Catherine.
Speaker 3: Well, he does get another job, and like everybody else,
Speaker 3: he well, I don't know if he takes it back
Speaker 3: so much as he doesn't really have the strength to
Speaker 3: keep her away because she's very persistent. But he gets
Speaker 3: another job at a place called Bowditch's from Google's. And
Speaker 3: because he's a very good worker. You could set your
Speaker 3: watch by this seller. He was illiterate, couldn't read or write,
Speaker 3: but he ended up having quite a senior job there,
Speaker 3: and he would arrive at work forty minutes before everybody else.
Speaker 3: He worked very hard. He was a very reliable employee,
Speaker 3: never missed a day's work in his life. But he
Speaker 3: started to get very concerned about her behavior. She was saying,
Speaker 3: if you don't give me this money, I won't go away.
Speaker 3: She was then threatening violence against his children. He knew
Speaker 3: as well as anybody that she was capable of extreme violence,
Speaker 3: and one night they end up having a fight. They
Speaker 3: rolling around on the floor in front of the television,
Speaker 3: scratching and clawing and god knows what. At some point
Speaker 3: he has grabbed her breast and bruised her breast with
Speaker 3: his fingers. At another point, she grabs somehow goes. She
Speaker 3: gets up, grabs a knife and chases him out of
Speaker 3: the house with an ice. He goes to report this
Speaker 3: to the police, but unfortunately he's been She has also
Speaker 3: gone to the police. She has photographs. She's very good
Speaker 3: at documenting any evidence or we don't know. She made
Speaker 3: it up a lot, but in this case, she had
Speaker 3: photographs taken of the finger marks on her breast as
Speaker 3: proof of the violence against that he traded against her.
Speaker 3: He took we have a thing called an av oh here,
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you have them in America apprehended
Speaker 3: violence order, which you can get taken out by the
Speaker 3: police or a magistrate to have somebody kept away from you.
Speaker 3: He tried to get one taken out against her because he,
Speaker 3: by this stage was convinced that she was going to
Speaker 3: kill him. There was some confusion and it ended up
Speaker 3: that the AVO was served against him, not her. He'd
Speaker 3: had a very very disturbing experience after the incident was
Speaker 3: the knife where he had woken up and she was
Speaker 3: standing at the end of his bed staring at him
Speaker 3: with her hands behind her back, and he knew that
Speaker 3: she had a knife behind her back, and he believed
Speaker 3: that she was possibly contemplating killing him there. And then
Speaker 3: he became so frightened that about this that he told
Speaker 3: a couple of people. He took a day off work.
Speaker 3: They were very worried about him. At work, his boss,
Speaker 3: he told his boss what was going on. His boss said,
Speaker 3: you can stay there's an apartment at the earth moving business,
Speaker 3: or you can stay at my house. You've got it.
Speaker 3: You can't go back to your home. He said, I
Speaker 3: have to go back. I can't If she doesn't get me,
Speaker 3: she'll get my children. He took the day off work.
Speaker 3: He went to the magistrate to try and sort out
Speaker 3: the avo. The magistrate said, the clerk there said, look,
Speaker 3: you know you're going to have to come back two weeks.
Speaker 3: This is a difficult process. He sort of took it
Speaker 3: on the chin, had a laugh at the bloke. He said,
Speaker 3: I don't know if I'm going to live that long.
Speaker 3: Coal He ran into his neighbors across the road, Collison's.
Speaker 3: They he went in there, the husband and wife. The
Speaker 3: wife there was very fond of him. He had a
Speaker 3: few drinks there that night. She could see that he
Speaker 3: was very disturbed. She said, what's going on. He told
Speaker 3: then the story of what had happened, with her being
Speaker 3: chased out of the house with the knife, and then
Speaker 3: waking up with her at the end of his bed
Speaker 3: with a knife. They told him not to go home.
Speaker 3: He said, I have to. He'd also told some people
Speaker 3: in the pub that night, and he went home the
Speaker 3: next morning. That night they heard her car pulling up,
Speaker 3: and they heard some movement around the place. They didn't
Speaker 3: think too much of it, but the next morning they
Speaker 3: woke up and they looked out and his truck was
Speaker 3: still in the driveway, his work boots were still on
Speaker 3: the front porch, and he hadn't gone to work. They
Speaker 3: would have been more surprised if the sudden hadn't come up,
Speaker 3: because he was a guy who was extremely punctual, as
Speaker 3: I said, And they became very concerned at this moment
Speaker 3: that something was wrong in the house across the road,
Speaker 3: and calls his work were ringing trying to find out
Speaker 3: where he was. It was most unusual. Another neighbor was
Speaker 3: contacted and people started to gather. His friends started to
Speaker 3: gather at the property just see what was going on,
Speaker 3: and they knocked on the door. There was no answer.
Speaker 3: They could hear the air conditioner ringing, and then they
Speaker 3: noticed blood around the doorstep, and I think they all
Speaker 3: knew immediately that their mate was in and they banged
Speaker 3: the place.
Speaker 10: Now before we talk about Detective Bob Wells, and he's
Speaker 10: a central figure in this book as well. Incredible result
Speaker 10: of this crime and an effect of him seeing this
Speaker 10: crime scene and new describe it and incredible detail. What
Speaker 10: does where are the children and what did Catherine do?
Speaker 10: Which was unusual in regards to the children. This just
Speaker 10: hours before.
Speaker 3: Yeah the World jump. Pross was explaining he sees to
Speaker 3: various people that evening, Catherine gathered together her daughters and
Speaker 3: took them out for Chinese meal at the local restaurant.
Speaker 3: It was a little unusual, but she gathered them all around.
Speaker 3: And before she did, she did something that they weren't
Speaker 3: made some videos of herself playing with her granddaughter and
Speaker 3: blowing rasberries on its stomach, and you know, images of
Speaker 3: a normal, loving grandmother. But when she was alone in
Speaker 3: the room, she put the video camera on top of
Speaker 3: the television and sat in a chair and began to
Speaker 3: make a video of what sounds like a last will
Speaker 3: and testament. It's telling the children that they own this,
Speaker 3: and don't they own that, and don't let anybody take
Speaker 3: you know. It's this again, this sense of entitlement. Don't
Speaker 3: let anyone take this off you or that off you,
Speaker 3: you know, and said, I love my children very much
Speaker 3: and I hope to see them again one day. And
Speaker 3: then somebody walks in the room and she turns off
Speaker 3: the video came and that's the end of that video.
Speaker 3: They go out for dinner, they separate, the go home.
Speaker 3: She goes back to her house earlier in the day,
Speaker 3: she's gone to a local charity shop and she's bought
Speaker 3: a black neglige, a black lacey underwear type thing, and
Speaker 3: she goes around to Price's house and she puts on
Speaker 3: this black neglige and looks into his bedroom and they
Speaker 3: have sex. We wonder what's going on in John Price's
Speaker 3: mind at this stage. He's told everybody he can in
Speaker 3: the town that he believes that Catherine's going to kill
Speaker 3: him at some point. Instead, she arrives and she walks
Speaker 3: into the bedroom and has sex with him. He has
Speaker 3: nowhere else to go. He can't run away because he's
Speaker 3: worried that she will track down his children, not her children,
Speaker 3: and kill them, as she's threatened to. And she's actually
Speaker 3: accused his eldest daughter of raping her son, which is
Speaker 3: an extraordinary accusation. She's done to very young herself, this girl.
Speaker 3: And from there we know from the forensic evidence. Oh,
Speaker 3: we know from some evidence in fact, that they have sex,
Speaker 3: and that John is lying in bed, probably on his back.
Speaker 3: She goes out, she goes to the toilet. She comes
Speaker 3: back with a knife and she proceeds to attack him
Speaker 3: in I don't know how much they tell you want
Speaker 3: me to go into it. Do we have squeamish listeners?
Speaker 10: Oh no, we don't. We do not have any tell
Speaker 10: us about the stabbing and will stop there. How many
Speaker 10: how many times does she stab him at least and
Speaker 10: then tell us about the circumstances that he is discovered
Speaker 10: and that will introduce Detective Bob Wells and some other
Speaker 10: police officers.
Speaker 3: Well, we believe the first time she stabbed him, and
Speaker 3: this is with again with the minds from the alatur
Speaker 3: while he's asleep, she stabbed there. She stabbed him in
Speaker 3: the neck and severs the carrocid artery, and there's a
Speaker 3: great spray of blood in the bedroom. He naturally, he
Speaker 3: waits in fright. This hasn't killed him. He begins to
Speaker 3: flee down the hallway of the house. She chases him.
Speaker 3: She's stabbing him as he runs down the hallway. The
Speaker 3: massive blood sprays down the hallway. Sometimes she stabs him
Speaker 3: with such violence that the knife, it's a big knife,
Speaker 3: actually passes right through his body. Wow. She continues to
Speaker 3: stab him. He reaches the front door. He opens the
Speaker 3: front door. He actually gets outside the house, but she
Speaker 3: pulls him back in and continues to stab him until
Speaker 3: we presume he dies. There were thirty seven puncture wounds
Speaker 3: between the bedroom and the front that he's suffered between
Speaker 3: in the bedroom and the front door, and he bleeds
Speaker 3: to death. He dies just in the little hallway behind
Speaker 3: the front door of this brick suburban country home. But
Speaker 3: she's not finished there. And it's a murder in two parts,
Speaker 3: and it's sort of this is perhaps what's interesting about her.
Speaker 3: The stabbing was angry, it was revenge, it was violent,
Speaker 3: it was heated, it was it could have passed for
Speaker 3: a murder of passion, of an inflamed passion of anger.
Speaker 3: But what she does next is what makes Catherine so fascinating.
Speaker 3: Her anger stated, the fact that she's killed him. She
Speaker 3: becomes very calm. I believe the judge refers to the
Speaker 3: calmness of what she does next. She actually decides to
Speaker 3: indulge all those perverted fantasies that she's had all the life,
Speaker 3: but which she lived out at the Avatar in particular,
Speaker 3: and she goes back to work on his body. She
Speaker 3: skins him. She skins him cleanly with an incision down
Speaker 3: the back, down his spine, peels the skin from his
Speaker 3: torso in one piece. The forensic evidence was said it
Speaker 3: surprisingness that it probably weighed about fifteen kilos the skin.
Speaker 3: She hung the skin on a butcher's hook in the
Speaker 3: doorway of the lounge room. She's moved the body sorry
Speaker 3: by this time, into the lounge room. She decapitates him.
Speaker 3: The forensic signers say that this she did this with
Speaker 3: It was an anatomical dissection. She did it very carefully.
Speaker 3: It would have taken some time. She's not and I
Speaker 3: told you what I'm saying. You know, what the judge
Speaker 3: is saying in the fens of science is that this
Speaker 3: isn't There's no frenzy involved anymore. The frenzy is gone.
Speaker 3: She is calm, she's collected, and she's very purposeful and
Speaker 3: at times evidence suggests that she stops for a cigarette
Speaker 3: to sort of survey the work that she's doing. But
Speaker 3: she's not finished because she decides to make a meal
Speaker 3: from her lover. She removes the head, She puts it
Speaker 3: into a large pot with onion vegetables and makes a
Speaker 3: soup from the head. She removes part of his buffets
Speaker 3: and nice meal with the meat. She claims vegetables, she
Speaker 3: cooks marrow and pumpton and potato. She makes gravy, and
Speaker 3: then she sets out the table with two plates, two
Speaker 3: plates with the mate, the vegetables, the gravy, and she
Speaker 3: is roughly written place maps America.
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Speaker 3: Visit one for his son and one for his daughter,
Speaker 3: saying here's your dad. This is revenged because for you
Speaker 3: to the daughter, he says, for what you did to
Speaker 3: my to my son, which which is a complete invention.
Speaker 3: And the the meals were never meant to be eaten.
Speaker 3: Those children weren't there, they were never going to come home.
Speaker 3: It was the middle of the night. And then cutting
Speaker 3: back to where we've when the police arrives, they Catherine
Speaker 3: is in the bedroom asleep, she has a she's had
Speaker 3: a shower, she's changed, and she's in the bedroom. She's
Speaker 3: taken a token overdose of pills, not enough to kill her.
Speaker 3: In no way would they kill her. And when they
Speaker 3: end to the crime scene, which is absolutely horrific as
Speaker 3: you can imagine, they can hear a noise from the
Speaker 3: master bedroom and it's Catherine snoring in bed. So they
Speaker 3: have and this is a very calculated act by her
Speaker 3: because she has decided she's planned this murder. She's hinted
Speaker 3: that she would do that, she would murder him and
Speaker 3: get away with it because everybody will think that I'm mad.
Speaker 3: It's the phrase she uses, because she's indulged this sick fantasy,
Speaker 3: you know, saying people don't behave like this, do they?
Speaker 3: And she hasn't tried to flee the scene. She's acted
Speaker 3: and she pleads that she has some sort of amnesia
Speaker 3: about what's happened, that she was lads and she believes
Speaker 3: that she will get away with this crime. She doesn't
Speaker 3: need to run away.
Speaker 10: Now. What Bob Wells finds out and what we see
Speaker 10: is that somewhere during this the murder, the stabbing to death,
Speaker 10: and then the butchering of this person and display this
Speaker 10: careful dissection and the cooking of him, she went to
Speaker 10: the ATM machine and took out as much money as
Speaker 10: she could in this you know, in this very lucid
Speaker 10: mind to be able to go there and be able
Speaker 10: to go to this ATM machine and take out this money. Now,
Speaker 10: talk about Bob Wells like you do in the book.
Speaker 10: Obviously he has this adverse, very dramatic reaction to what
Speaker 10: he sees in that house, doesn't he?
Speaker 3: Yes, and he's not a lot Bob sageant. He drives
Speaker 3: up from Newcastle that we talked about before, when he
Speaker 3: gets their local place about saying the forensic scientists throughout
Speaker 3: the same there are people documenting it. He arrives, they're
Speaker 3: all on the front law and nobody wants to be
Speaker 3: in his house. And one of them said, you will
Speaker 3: not believe what's in here. Yeah, yeah, I mean Bob's not.
Speaker 3: And I might point out Bob's not a homicide detective.
Speaker 3: He's not, but he's seen enough in his life. But
Speaker 3: everybody is standing and as pale, and there is not
Speaker 3: one person, not one person associated with the police who
Speaker 3: attended that crime scene, who is the same person when
Speaker 3: they leave it. Many of them didn't go back to work.
Speaker 3: A forensic scientist submitted his paperwork that afternoon, drove home
Speaker 3: and never returned, never spent another day in the police force.
Speaker 3: Almost every one of them's been diagnosed with some psychiatric
Speaker 3: reaction to what happens. And I suppose this is what
Speaker 3: makes Bob such a compelling figures that the homicide aren't
Speaker 3: interested in the case because the woman's pled. They've got
Speaker 3: They've got the woman straight away, it's cut and dried.
Speaker 3: There's he has no support. He's a lone police officer,
Speaker 3: and he's told you go you, you do the report
Speaker 3: for the coroner. You do the report, and when it
Speaker 3: gets the trial, be cut and dried. It's all yours.
Speaker 3: But he's very concerned that she won't be convicted of
Speaker 3: murder because it looks like an act of madness. And
Speaker 3: that's what at some point in his investigation he finds.
Speaker 3: He discovers that prices as there's one thousand dollars been
Speaker 3: taken out of Price's bank account after he's murdered on
Speaker 3: that night. So at some stage we presume she's had
Speaker 3: a shower, she's driven to the next town, which is
Speaker 3: about twenty kilometer drive, she's gone for an ATM and
Speaker 3: she's taken out five hundred dollars, which to that point
Speaker 3: in time was generally about the limit of what you
Speaker 3: could take out from a tower machine. She's then two
Speaker 3: minutes later gone back to the tower machine and taken
Speaker 3: out another five hundred dollars. This intrigues me, this act
Speaker 3: because it suggests to me that perhaps she wasn't alone,
Speaker 3: and that perhaps another member of her family is with
Speaker 3: her and has driven her to the tower and told
Speaker 3: her that no, no, no, you could get a thousand
Speaker 3: dollars out of his account. Maybe I'm reading too much
Speaker 3: into that, but there is a suggestion that somebody else
Speaker 3: was involved at this point, not at the murder. But
Speaker 3: this is critical evidence to the police because this and
Speaker 3: to what they present to the judge, because this proves
Speaker 3: that she's thinking very clearly. She's not a woman in
Speaker 3: some sort of psychological fob who's disassociated from her actions.
Speaker 3: Here is this is another act of revenge. The defilement
Speaker 3: of the bo is an act of revenge, but the
Speaker 3: stealing of money is an active revenge and gets to
Speaker 3: that point I've made a few times about her sense
Speaker 3: of entitlement. She couldn't get half the house, she couldn't
Speaker 3: get the ten thousand dollars she was asking. She couldn't
Speaker 3: break his relationship with his first wife and children, so
Speaker 3: she killed him. But she did get a thousand dollars,
Speaker 3: so you know, I think that made her quite happy.
Speaker 3: We don't actually know what happened to the money either,
Speaker 3: which has further to that theory that perhaps she dropped
Speaker 3: it off to another family member.
Speaker 10: Now you talk about Bob Wells and how it affects him,
Speaker 10: is that he's affected with post traumatic stress disorder in
Speaker 10: nightmares and this incredible anxiety because again he figures that
Speaker 10: the prosecution will give him some kind of give her
Speaker 10: a plea bargain. But he is in his investigations, is
Speaker 10: finding a lot of people that have said that she
Speaker 10: has said, I will kill him, I'll kill the kids.
Speaker 10: So he's gathering a lot of that kind of information.
Speaker 10: But at the same time, you talk about how ridiculous
Speaker 10: it it would seem to anybody like ourselves that she
Speaker 10: would be considered insane by the standards. Once she's in
Speaker 10: the hospital, she's sticking with this amnesia and there's a
Speaker 10: doctor the pronunciation you'll have to help me out with.
Speaker 10: But he is taught is buying into what she is saying, so,
Speaker 10: tell us a little bit about this psychiatrist for the
Speaker 10: defense that speaks to her and seems to be believing
Speaker 10: her story.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, yeah, I mean it's not uncommon. Psychiatrist shocking
Speaker 3: if you want a defense. I'm not sure that's exactly
Speaker 3: what happens in this situation. But he does believe this story.
Speaker 3: He believes that she has a disassociation on this not
Speaker 3: that is his mister Jeffrieda. That disassociative amnesia, I think
Speaker 3: it's called. And he says that she is not of
Speaker 3: right mind when she kills Price, and that insanity. You know,
Speaker 3: she can use that as a defense against a murder charge.
Speaker 3: This really upsets Wells takes this case personally. I think
Speaker 3: Wells in a way identifies with Price. He can't he
Speaker 3: can't get it out of his mind, the fear and
Speaker 3: the horror of what happened to Price that night. He particularly,
Speaker 3: he can't get out of his mind the crime scene.
Speaker 3: Every time he closes his eyes he sees the crime scene.
Speaker 3: He's a man in a terrible psychological trauma after that,
Speaker 3: But he was. The more he research is the case,
Speaker 3: the more he becomes convinced that it follows an arrhis
Speaker 3: that I've given you because very much I followed in
Speaker 3: Bob's footsteps that she was a woman, she was a woman,
Speaker 3: a violent, evil woman, that she planned to kill her
Speaker 3: husband because she told she told her family members that
Speaker 3: she'd killed him and getting away with her, and the
Speaker 3: family member told that. To Bob Wells, there was a
Speaker 3: critical piece of evidence, and he really felt felt like
Speaker 3: he had to do the right thing by John Price
Speaker 3: and make sure that this woman was convicted of murder
Speaker 3: and didn't get away with it, just as she got
Speaker 3: away with her violence, her her whole life. And it became,
Speaker 3: you know, it became a quest for Bob. He was
Speaker 3: suffering from He wasn't very healthy at all at the time.
Speaker 3: I've forgotten the words that she said when you get
Speaker 3: had a very sore foot, so I forgot the name
Speaker 3: of this disease was thank you. He was walking without
Speaker 3: one without a shoe on. He was driving here, he
Speaker 3: was driving there. He'd become quite maniced. I became I
Speaker 3: spent a lot of time with him and his wife
Speaker 3: at the time after the murder, and I had a
Speaker 3: conversation with her a few years ago because eventually their
Speaker 3: marriage broke down and she said to me, you know, Pete,
Speaker 3: Bobby never came home that day. She said, that man
Speaker 3: that you know now wasn't the man that left the
Speaker 3: work that day. He was forever changed by what he
Speaker 3: saw and haunted by it. You know, she still had
Speaker 3: a lot of affection for him, but that scene, and
Speaker 3: this is not uncommon with police officers to have post
Speaker 3: traumatic stress disorder, and it's you know, it is one
Speaker 3: event that will tip them over the edge, but it's
Speaker 3: a compilation of things that they've endured through their careers.
Speaker 3: And you know, Bob told me stories of the terrible
Speaker 3: road accidents that he'd attended on country roads where he
Speaker 3: sat holding victims, you know, skull together for an hour,
Speaker 3: waiting for an ambulance to camp and being chased by
Speaker 3: men with knives. I mean, it wasn't just this crime
Speaker 3: that had got the bold, but it was this crime
Speaker 3: that tipped him out of the edge, and he ended
Speaker 3: up needing a lot of psychiatric help.
Speaker 10: Actually, now the prosecution gets a doctor Robert Delaforce, and
Speaker 10: Dela Force has a different diagnosis. After speaking with her
Speaker 10: for almost nine hours, what is his conclusions regarding her
Speaker 10: mental illness or lack of.
Speaker 2: Will.
Speaker 3: He basically says, yes, she is a woman who suffers
Speaker 3: from borderline personality disorder, but what she did that night
Speaker 3: was not an expression of her disease. It was an
Speaker 3: expression of her personality. He says. She enjoyed what she did.
Speaker 3: It was she lived out of fantasy. And they found
Speaker 3: they found horror videos in the house, and there was
Speaker 3: one I watched it back in the day. It's called Resurrection,
Speaker 3: where a serial killer goes around and hangs people on
Speaker 3: butcher's hooks and dismembers them, and Dalla Force believed that
Speaker 3: there were some there was some correlation with the crime there,
Speaker 3: with the butcher's hooks and the skin hanging on the
Speaker 3: from the butcher's hook. He basically said, she knew exactly
Speaker 3: what she was doing and she was having a very
Speaker 3: good time. He believed that she'd actually planned for months.
Speaker 3: She dreamt of killing him. And one of the key
Speaker 3: Captain was that I mentioned earlier. She owned her own home.
Speaker 3: It was an old weatherboard, it was a shop front
Speaker 3: on the highway, nothing fancy. But she loved her as
Speaker 3: most people will. And she didn't love her home because
Speaker 3: she planted flowers and had birds in cages and there
Speaker 3: were doilies and you know, pretty pictures on the wall.
Speaker 3: She loved her home because she felt calm there. And
Speaker 3: why she felt calm, she had decorated almost every surface
Speaker 3: inch of the living area with dead things, with things
Speaker 3: that were related to death. There were skulls, there were pelts,
Speaker 3: there were horns, there were knives. It was, as Delaforce says,
Speaker 3: a place of death and destruction. This was how she
Speaker 3: decorated the place where she felt the safest. She said,
Speaker 3: you know, this was a place where I felt calm.
Speaker 3: Sitting among there were stuffed animals. She found some. It
Speaker 3: was almost like a necrophilia. She was comforted by death
Speaker 3: and by being around death, and by killing things, by
Speaker 3: seeing living things become dead things. And that's why she
Speaker 3: enjoyed so much that defilement of John Price's body on
Speaker 3: the night. That's why she did it. But it had
Speaker 3: a double purst It had a dual purpose. She fulfilled
Speaker 3: the fantasy and at the same time, she's very cunning woman.
Speaker 3: She was constructing a defense for herself.
Speaker 10: Now in terms of her imprisonment. What does she tell
Speaker 10: people about her imprisonment? What does she does she like
Speaker 10: it or hate it?
Speaker 3: I get she's not open to discussing her in prison
Speaker 3: with me. She's quite hostile towards me. I hear various
Speaker 3: stories some people, some prisoners report that she is the
Speaker 3: victim of a history of domestic violence and abuse, that
Speaker 3: she snapped and that she killed this man because she
Speaker 3: was a victim herself and she was protecting herself. And
Speaker 3: this is this is a story that she's this is
Speaker 3: a story that she has was for herself and for
Speaker 3: members of her family if they want to, if they
Speaker 3: want to accept that story and get along with her.
Speaker 3: There are others there. I have some communication with some
Speaker 3: of the guards who looked after her, and they tell
Speaker 3: me that she is a dangerous, frightening woman who does
Speaker 3: appear calm, who at one point she was very keen.
Speaker 3: I mean, she made her own clothes, She was very you.
Speaker 3: She was a dressmaker of sorts and amateur dressmaker. She
Speaker 3: made very sexually outfits for herself. She was very fond
Speaker 3: of short skirts and hot pants, and she was a
Speaker 3: very sexual woman. And she's very she's very into craft
Speaker 3: in the prison, but they've had to be very wary
Speaker 3: of what tools she uses because they do not trust
Speaker 3: her in the prison system. Somebody obtained for me some
Speaker 3: paintings that she'd done, which at first glance are not
Speaker 3: very remarkable. She paints clowns, but if you look very carefully,
Speaker 3: very very disturbing clowns. These are evil clowns they have.
Speaker 3: She's quite skillful. These bloodshot ouryes, these evil eyes setting
Speaker 3: to a sort of normal crown size. There's a series
Speaker 3: of these tintings. It looked like something out of a horribley,
Speaker 3: very very disturbing.
Speaker 10: We've only got a few minutes, but I wanted to
Speaker 10: make sure that we spoke about after trial. As you
Speaker 10: talk about in the book, doctor Wilfrida his they don't
Speaker 10: realie even call him as a witness. The defense you
Speaker 10: have Dela Force, and you also have the defense parton me.
Speaker 10: The prosecution brings in another psychiatrist which goes even further
Speaker 10: than Dela Force does and says that there is no
Speaker 10: personality disorder and basically she knew what she was doing
Speaker 10: and maybe even enjoyed it. What was Catherine Knight's demeanor
Speaker 10: at trial, well, at the sentencing, I should say, because
Speaker 10: she's pleaded guilty, so well.
Speaker 3: Actually she yes, disturtublish it. She pled not guilty and
Speaker 3: a trial started, but once the evidence started to be
Speaker 3: presented in the court case, and once she was confronted
Speaker 3: with what she did, she called off the trial. She
Speaker 3: changed and she pled guilty. At this stage, Justice O. Keith,
Speaker 3: we're very concerned that she might not be doing the
Speaker 3: right thing, and he spoke to he consulted with her
Speaker 3: lawyers and said, we need to take a break for
Speaker 3: a few days, see if your client really does want
Speaker 3: to plead guilty. And she pled guilty. And we believe
Speaker 3: she pled guilty because she did not want to be
Speaker 3: confronted by the evidence of what she did. At one
Speaker 3: point where she seems at times she seemed absolutely fascinated
Speaker 3: by the psychologist's evidence and their accounts of what happened
Speaker 3: to her and her life of her childhood. She wet
Speaker 3: the bed as a child because she lived in fear
Speaker 3: of the dark. I mean, she was a traumatized child,
Speaker 3: you know, and how that led to the broaderline personality
Speaker 3: disorder and what was going on when she put Melissa
Speaker 3: on the train. Tax She was fascinated by this evidence.
Speaker 3: But when evidence of the crime was presented and they
Speaker 3: played the crime scene video to a closed court, she
Speaker 3: began to scream hysterically and have a fit and throw
Speaker 3: herself about. That happened on at least one occasion and
Speaker 3: she had to be removed from the court. But the
Speaker 3: fit passed very quickly when she was given a cup
Speaker 3: of tea with sugar in it and she calmed down.
Speaker 3: And O'Keefe really wasn't buying this from Catherine and said,
Speaker 3: it's put on. I don't care how she carries on.
Speaker 3: She's sitting there. We're getting through this. The crime scene video,
Speaker 3: which I've seen, is the most terrific video you have
Speaker 3: ever seen in your life. I know you can imagine
Speaker 3: a skinned torso, the skin the At one point, the
Speaker 3: forensic detective takes the lid off the pot on the
Speaker 3: stove and John Price's John Price's head is looking at
Speaker 3: John Price is looking up at you. His head there,
Speaker 3: his eye is staring at the camera. This goes on
Speaker 3: and she sound guilty. She is given a sentence never
Speaker 3: to be released. We don't have the death sentence in Australia.
Speaker 3: She has appealed against this on two occasions, the appeals
Speaker 3: being rejected. So she's going to spend the rest of
Speaker 3: her life in jail. In a funny way as you
Speaker 3: asked earlier. She finds jail a little bit comforting because
Speaker 3: of the routines and strangely enough, the security of it all.
Speaker 3: Her life's ed and organized, but there's there's no doubt.
Speaker 3: She also thinks that she she was a victim protecting
Speaker 3: herself from a violent man, from a string of violent
Speaker 3: name and poor old Price was the one who paid
Speaker 3: for all those that came before him.
Speaker 10: Yes, well, you've captured it all in this amazing book, Bloodstain.
Speaker 10: I want to thank you very much, Peter for coming
Speaker 10: on and talking about this, this true story of Catherine Knight.
Speaker 10: For those that may want to contact you or find
Speaker 10: out more information about other work that you have done.
Speaker 10: Do you do Facebook or do you have a website or.
Speaker 3: Oh yes I'm on Facebook, and yeah they can find
Speaker 3: me there. But this was my one and only true
Speaker 3: crime book. I've done a lot about that. This was
Speaker 3: the only one for true crime fans, right well, I
Speaker 3: think once was enough.
Speaker 10: I was gonna say it wouldn't be too eager to
Speaker 10: do another one. I mean, god, you might end up
Speaker 10: like Bob Wells.
Speaker 3: So yeah, incredible.
Speaker 10: I want to thank you very much Peter for coming
Speaker 10: on and talking about incredible tale. And thank you very
Speaker 10: much and have a great day. Thank you all.
Speaker 3: Once said it was a pleasure, that it was very
Speaker 3: kind to you to have me.
Speaker 10: Thank you, thank you very much, Peter, good night,