Speaker 1: Welcome to Truth Time with doctor Cornell West and Nina Turner.
Speaker 1: Per usual, we kind of all joy and I mean
Speaker 1: all joy, and you are here with us on this
Speaker 1: a day. Today is our teaching, the birth day day
Speaker 1: where we go deep about events or personalities that have shaped, impacted,
Speaker 1: shook up our world. And today we're talking about none
Speaker 1: other than A Jack A. Johnson now john author. Johnson
Speaker 1: was born on March thirty first, eighteen seventy eight, and
Speaker 1: he passed away on June tenth, nineteen forty six. He
Speaker 1: was nicknamed the Galveston Giant. He was an American boxer
Speaker 1: and African American boxer to be specific, who was fighting
Speaker 1: at the height of Jim Crow.
Speaker 2: Who doc he really?
Speaker 1: I mean, he messed up the minds of a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of white folks during that Jim Crow era and
Speaker 1: even beyond. I think even today he would be among
Speaker 1: some of the greatest twentieth and twenty first century of boxers.
Speaker 2: If he were alive today, he would.
Speaker 1: Have given many of them a run for his a
Speaker 1: run for their money.
Speaker 2: So he really became known as.
Speaker 1: The first black man to be a heavyweight champion, to
Speaker 1: really capture the imagination more importantly of black people who
Speaker 1: really saw the battles that he was fighting and the
Speaker 1: matches that he won as really the black community overall,
Speaker 1: winning winning against Jim Crow, winning against hatred, winning against bigotry,
Speaker 1: and to be honestly, you know, just winning against white supremacy.
Speaker 1: So black people really internalized Jack Johnson in a way
Speaker 1: that I don't think many understand. He was not just
Speaker 1: a boxer.
Speaker 2: In a ring. He was boxing for the heart, to soul,
Speaker 2: the respect, you know, giving black people something to really
Speaker 2: be proud of in a way to say he's sticking
Speaker 2: it to the man.
Speaker 3: Quite honestly, no, that's very, very real that Jack Johnson
Speaker 3: was one of the freest black men in the shit
Speaker 3: of the country. And that freedom when hand in hand
Speaker 3: with a dignity and respect that he was fighting for
Speaker 3: not just on behalf of himself, but on behalf of
Speaker 3: a black folk who terrorized and traumatized. And so when
Speaker 3: he was knocking white brothers out, that was a triumph
Speaker 3: of black dignity and black respect in a context because
Speaker 3: you think of Jim Crow America, the only space in
Speaker 3: America where black people were treated fairly, it was the
Speaker 3: boxing ring. But you got one set of rules, you
Speaker 3: got one referee. Everybody can see it because it is
Speaker 3: a national and international spectacle. So we finally have an
Speaker 3: opportunity for what taverage of fundamental fairness. And let's see
Speaker 3: who wins. And he knocks out the first Jefferies. Then
Speaker 3: he knocks out his brother, Jeffries. And when he knocks
Speaker 3: out the old man Jeffries. In July fourth, nineteen ten,
Speaker 3: as you know, ten black people were killed that night.
Speaker 3: They were riots of the country of white folk just
Speaker 3: attacking black folk because they could take the fact that
Speaker 3: a black man had eaten a white man. That's how
Speaker 3: deep and sick the white supremacy was then and continues
Speaker 3: to be in various ways. Now, Jack Johnson becomes symbol
Speaker 3: as well as literal figure of dignity, respect and freedom
Speaker 3: and triumph for black folk. And just like then and now,
Speaker 3: black foolks were hungry for dignity, hungry for respect, hungry
Speaker 3: for freedom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'sdeed got the hungry for respect, hungry for dignity,
Speaker 1: and hungry for freedom. So let us I want to
Speaker 1: rest a little bit on the race riots. We know
Speaker 1: that the bloody or the red summer, red summer of
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen or race riots broke out all over the
Speaker 1: country at the hands of white people just randomly attacking
Speaker 1: black people.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was like a disease. It was almost
Speaker 2: like the spreading of the flu or covid or something like.
Speaker 2: It was a plague. You know that that and.
Speaker 1: This country does not reckon We go enough dot that is.
Speaker 1: That's domestic terrorism for you. I mean, that stuff is real.
Speaker 1: We don't even have to go. We should always reference
Speaker 1: child of Slavery always. I really personally don't care what
Speaker 1: anybody has to say about it. You know, I agree
Speaker 1: with the fact that you know, James Baldwin once said,
Speaker 1: know from whence you came? If you know from whence
Speaker 1: you can, it's virtually nowhere that you cannot go. And
Speaker 1: you can't say you love the tree if you hate
Speaker 1: the root. That is our reference point. It's not the
Speaker 1: only reference point in the great magnificence of black people,
Speaker 1: but it is the seminal reference point in terms of
Speaker 1: our souljourn in the United States of America. Now we
Speaker 1: want to go back to the continent, the motherland where
Speaker 1: our ancestors hail from. That's a whole nother glorious story
Speaker 1: which I believe allowed us to bear the burden and
Speaker 1: the beauty of being black, because it is both of
Speaker 1: those things. But make no mistake, white supremacy and just
Speaker 1: the literal deep seated hatred for us generally speaking, is
Speaker 1: attached to that white supremacy and just hatred for no reason.
Speaker 1: So the race riot. So I bring up bread Summer
Speaker 1: in nineteen nineteen just to remind people of that. And
Speaker 1: then let's talk about this race riot, the Johnson jeff
Speaker 1: Jeffries riot, which I'm sure a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: know about, probably have never heard of. But as you
Speaker 1: laid out, doctor, series of race riots that occurred throughout
Speaker 1: the United States. The African American boxer, the Galveston Giant
Speaker 1: knocked out, defeated James J. Jeffries and a boxing match
Speaker 1: termed the fight of the century. They actually called that
Speaker 1: fight the fight of the century. Wow, that's heavy to
Speaker 1: put all that on one black man.
Speaker 2: When we come forward, we will continue our teach in
Speaker 2: that Thursday.
Speaker 1: Today, doctor West and I are talking about the one
Speaker 1: and only Jack Johnson, the first African American everyweight champion
Speaker 1: of the world, who did his thing at a time
Speaker 1: where Wow, it was even more dangerous to do their
Speaker 1: to do something that he did. Oh when we continue,
Speaker 1: So glad you're here with us today on this teaching Thursday.
Speaker 1: We all know that on Thursdays, doctors and myself we
Speaker 1: go really deep talking about a luminary of people who
Speaker 1: did not liking themselves to be luminaries. Man, they ain't
Speaker 1: set out to be luminaries, but baby, did they shake
Speaker 1: in shape of the world. Or we talk about events,
Speaker 1: and this gives us the opportunity with you to go
Speaker 1: a little deeper. Today we are talking about the heavyweight
Speaker 1: champion Jack Johnson, who fought back boxing matches during the
Speaker 1: height of Jim Crow. He really set this country on fire.
Speaker 1: And so doctors, as we were now that we've come forward,
Speaker 1: we were talking about those Johnson Jeffreys race.
Speaker 2: Riots and.
Speaker 1: The fact that this that riot, you know, it was
Speaker 1: set off only because Johnson beat a white man fair
Speaker 1: and square in a boxing match that had rules set
Speaker 1: up and he beat him fair and square and the
Speaker 1: white psyche could not take it. And I'm just we
Speaker 1: wrestled with a lot on this show. I'm wrestling with
Speaker 1: the fact that they got so upset that they started
Speaker 1: rioting by being white people against black people because this
Speaker 1: black man fair and square. This wasn't no street brawl,
Speaker 1: this was in a boxing ring and he beat Jeffrey's
Speaker 1: fair and square. And that set white people off. And
Speaker 1: not only did it set them off, they felt as though,
Speaker 1: and they acted in this way, that they had card
Speaker 1: blanche to just randomly start just beating up black people,
Speaker 1: so that they felt a sense of entitlement, right, that
Speaker 1: they're always supposed to be on top, that they're always
Speaker 1: supposed to win, so much so that they go out
Speaker 1: and stoke violence against black people.
Speaker 3: That's exactly rays, exactly right. I mean the depth of
Speaker 3: the hatred rooted in a depth of insecurity.
Speaker 4: I mean there's a story right here in New York.
Speaker 3: Right after the white right after the fight, what people
Speaker 3: were looking at black folks thinking, our hustle, you think
Speaker 3: you're gonna be out beyond your position.
Speaker 4: Now now that black doubt brother Jeffery. And in a
Speaker 4: way I wouldn't even call it riot.
Speaker 3: It was a massacre of black people white be right,
Speaker 3: That's really was, And it was a massive one. And uh,
Speaker 3: I mean fascinating to me, you know, I'm inn ur
Speaker 3: Lee of course always viewed himself as an extension of Jackson,
Speaker 3: and so did so did Miles Davis. You know my
Speaker 3: great album nineteen seventy one on Jack Johnson. He said
Speaker 3: it's one of his greatest albums. That he was a
Speaker 3: boxer too, but he always felt so close to Jack Johnson.
Speaker 3: When I asked Prince who his grand American hero was, he.
Speaker 4: Said Jack Johnson.
Speaker 2: No way, Well, yeah, he.
Speaker 3: Said, Jack Johnson. This brother's in the most hate, wow,
Speaker 3: the history of the country.
Speaker 4: And he's a free man. He does what he wants
Speaker 4: to do.
Speaker 3: Of course, he got in a out of trouble in
Speaker 3: his personal life, you know, messing with the white sisters.
Speaker 3: And of course what did they do. They criminalized him,
Speaker 3: to incarcerated.
Speaker 4: Him, to.
Speaker 3: Lev spent time in Leavenworth for doing what well, for
Speaker 3: being a free man.
Speaker 4: It was like, it was unbelievable.
Speaker 3: That level self confidence, that level of willingness to do
Speaker 3: what one wants to do in light of one's conception
Speaker 3: of oneself is something always had a deep.
Speaker 4: Appeal to the Muhammad Ali's and.
Speaker 3: Princes and uh uh uh and and and and other
Speaker 3: black men. In fact, also Ralph Ellison, Ralph Ellison his hero,
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and his and his letters with with the
Speaker 3: with the Great uh uh, what's the brother's name, the
Speaker 3: American I can't even remember his name right now, But
Speaker 3: but in their letters they talk about how Jack Johnson
Speaker 3: was their hero.
Speaker 2: Definitely, that's that's amazing. That, yeah, that is something.
Speaker 1: And to hear that Prince, I mean Prince and Jack
Speaker 1: Johnson spoken of in the same voice that or breath, Wow,
Speaker 1: that is amade. I don't know that little muggy is
Speaker 1: gonna have everybody like saying.
Speaker 4: What I'll be murray if anybody murray.
Speaker 3: Ralph Ellison that Jack Johnson is one of the heroes
Speaker 3: in that in that letters and.
Speaker 1: Their letters and did you you know in your conversation
Speaker 1: with the Purple One, did he did he go deeper
Speaker 1: about it or just kind of put it out there?
Speaker 4: Oh? No, Shoot, he talked about the books that he read.
Speaker 3: He talked about the inspiration he felt anytime he was
Speaker 3: down and out and felt as if he could there
Speaker 3: was no way that he could make it. He would
Speaker 3: go back and read about Jack Dohnson and how it
Speaker 3: was that his brother could sustain his sense of self
Speaker 3: in the face of unbelievable attack and assault. It's the
Speaker 3: freedom and of course in some way, you know, the
Speaker 3: black folk too were very hard on Jack Johnson once.
Speaker 2: Yeah, then Booker T.
Speaker 1: Washington was one of his biggest critics, most well known critics.
Speaker 2: I believe.
Speaker 3: I could I could imagine he looked he much too
Speaker 3: much for Booker T. More respectability. You know, I'm not
Speaker 3: gonna be spending time out the club with all this swagger.
Speaker 4: And of course he got his cigar.
Speaker 3: And he got his his new new car every two weeks.
Speaker 3: And uh, I mean the sad thing is, you know,
Speaker 3: even when he did get married to the white sister,
Speaker 3: she committed suicide because it was too much pressure.
Speaker 4: Our family turned, yeah, turned the owner.
Speaker 3: And he wasn't acting right all the time either, but
Speaker 3: it was it's he he he really had a heavy, heavy,
Speaker 3: heavy burden, even though he was making a lot, making the.
Speaker 2: Whole Yeah, I stick to endure in the.
Speaker 3: White Box when he was down in Australia and beat
Speaker 3: Tommy Burns the first time he became champion. Tommy Burns
Speaker 3: got thirty thousand, he got five thousand.
Speaker 4: He's still making.
Speaker 3: Less money, but it was making a lot of money
Speaker 3: for that average person was making about eight hundred dollars
Speaker 3: a year, but still he get five thousand, and the
Speaker 3: white ca ten third, thirty thousand, and he's supposed to
Speaker 3: be satisfied and have with his position, and he's the champ.
Speaker 1: Right, So they pay Jack Johnson the champ, the heavyweight
Speaker 1: champion of the world, of the United States, of the
Speaker 1: world and the world. And he gets five thousand, and
Speaker 1: then his white probalyague term loosely received thirty thousand. I
Speaker 1: mean doct that is a micro column of how black
Speaker 1: people are treated in this society, continue to get less
Speaker 1: compared to their white counterparts. That is happening today in
Speaker 1: the twenty first century. Quite telling the pattern of white supremacy.
Speaker 1: We can predict the pattern. It's the same pattern decade
Speaker 1: after decade, century after century, year after year. Is the
Speaker 1: same pattern. So Jack Johnson, so the white community of
Speaker 1: that time. So he won the championship in nineteen oh nine,
Speaker 1: I believe, I think I'm right about that. But the
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds he wins his champion was it nineteen
Speaker 1: oh eight?
Speaker 2: Was it nineteen oh eight? Nineteen oh eight, he wins
Speaker 2: the championship, right.
Speaker 4: I thought, okay, six nineteen oh eight.
Speaker 2: Nineteen oh eight.
Speaker 1: White people lose their mind even though he's in the
Speaker 1: boxing ring, fighting fair and square.
Speaker 2: They lost their mind.
Speaker 1: So massacre and all that kind of stuff because Jeffries
Speaker 1: was considered what the Great White Hope or something like that.
Speaker 4: That's eight.
Speaker 3: They convinced Jefferies to come out of retirement and not
Speaker 3: yet Negro, to reaffirm their sense of white supremacy. He
Speaker 3: goes back into training, gets into the ring July fourth,
Speaker 3: nineteen ten, and this.
Speaker 4: Great White Hope.
Speaker 3: And remember remember the play, and I think they made
Speaker 3: a movie out of it too.
Speaker 2: They did.
Speaker 1: I thought it was tall. Yeah, yes, but Samuel l
Speaker 1: in that movie doc. I don't know why see Samuel
Speaker 1: L in my mind for that movie.
Speaker 3: Don't remember. That's a good question. Jones was the main
Speaker 3: character when he played Okay Johnson.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, maybe I'm mixing up movies on that one.
Speaker 2: But yeah, So the.
Speaker 1: White society goes crazy and they want to punish random
Speaker 1: black people and rain or terror as you said. So
Speaker 1: Jack Johnson, being the free black man that he was,
Speaker 1: decided that you know, he any woman from any background.
Speaker 4: That's true, that's true, Willing and Abel, you.
Speaker 2: Know, I might rock that way, and he didn't rock
Speaker 2: that way, committing.
Speaker 1: The ultimate and I mean the ultimate transgression against white men.
Speaker 4: This is exactly.
Speaker 2: That is still true today. I want to wreck man.
Speaker 1: Our audience reads doctor Francis Crest. Uh, oh my god,
Speaker 1: welles and yes, thank you dot oh my god.
Speaker 2: The book the book.
Speaker 1: Uh lost the book, doc, But she wrote a magnificent book.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna look it up about the white psychology
Speaker 1: and uh.
Speaker 2: And and and and and and.
Speaker 1: Black maleness and how in the white man's psyche he
Speaker 1: can never ever get over the attributes of black men.
Speaker 1: And the audience know who I'm going for. So it's
Speaker 1: always that fight. That is why when black men were
Speaker 1: lynched by and large, they were castrated at the same time.
Speaker 1: That is, and Francis quest well, then she welles Lane,
Speaker 1: she goes deep into the psychology of that that is
Speaker 1: still very much in the white psyche to this to
Speaker 1: this very day. So they go after Jack Johnson because
Speaker 1: he created the ultimate sin was to be in relationship
Speaker 1: with a white woman. Notwithstanding they can rape black women
Speaker 1: at will, they did rape a black woman, particularly during enslavement.
Speaker 1: Black women were always vulnerable, their daughters, their granddaughters, their nieces.
Speaker 2: Always vulnerable.
Speaker 1: We don't talk a lot about the sexual exploitation of
Speaker 1: black men. Black men were sexually exploited too, because they
Speaker 1: had absolutely no control male or female or person. Black
Speaker 1: persons had no control over their bodies whatsoever. So you
Speaker 1: got the physical abuse, the raw physical abuse in that
Speaker 1: you're working them hard and killing them off, working them hard,
Speaker 1: killing them off, working them or killing them off. So
Speaker 1: you got that kind of physical you got that physical abuse,
Speaker 1: you got the psychological abuse, and then you got the
Speaker 1: sexual abuse.
Speaker 2: Black men and black women.
Speaker 1: And because of the kind of male psyche of not
Speaker 1: really talking about it in this country, we don't talk
Speaker 1: about that a lot about how black men are violated.
Speaker 1: They have been violated, they continue to be violated. They
Speaker 1: were really violated during that time, black women especially, So
Speaker 1: so I'm thinking, Doc, you know, is it that guilt
Speaker 1: that drives them crazy? I mean, they put they put
Speaker 1: white women on a pedestal, and they a lot of
Speaker 1: the lynchings, A lot of excuses for the lynchions was
Speaker 1: they made black men to be out to be stark, raving, mad,
Speaker 1: a sexual beast and I'm using exact words, and so
Speaker 1: they violated the precious.
Speaker 2: Womanhood of white women Meanwhile, it is white men.
Speaker 1: Who were doing what they claimed that black men were
Speaker 1: doing the wonderful, truly magnificent.
Speaker 2: I'd have be well. Did all our research on this,
Speaker 2: and most of.
Speaker 1: The time it had nothing to do with black men
Speaker 1: raping white women and had everything to do with black
Speaker 1: men and black people being successful and uppity and getting
Speaker 1: out of their station as to why they.
Speaker 2: Would lynched them. But they lynched and castrated them.
Speaker 4: Doc oh, lord lord.
Speaker 2: Almost every time.
Speaker 3: They sold their parts, they sold their parts, and the
Speaker 3: private parts were the parts that they gained most money.
Speaker 3: They profited most from that. One the boys about Sam
Speaker 3: Holes when he's walking down the street and they see
Speaker 3: Sam Holes's knuckles are being told and does his research
Speaker 3: and he sees, of course, private parts are the parts
Speaker 3: that they made the most money of.
Speaker 4: And it was a public spectacle.
Speaker 3: Over fifteen thousand and sick folks were out there to
Speaker 3: watch the lynching as they then cut up his body
Speaker 3: and sold various parts of his body. And that kind
Speaker 3: of thing was not abnormal. See we're talking about levels
Speaker 3: of sickness. He had levels of pathology. The great E
Speaker 3: Franklin Fraser wrote an essay called White Supremacy as social
Speaker 3: pathology came out in nineteen twenty seven, they ran him
Speaker 3: out of town. It was in Atlanta, Atlanta University came
Speaker 3: out and they ran him.
Speaker 4: Out of town. This is in an academic journal, and
Speaker 4: they lynching folk.
Speaker 3: And he just calls it pathology and can tell the
Speaker 3: truth that he's the one to get run out of town.
Speaker 4: See, this is part of the.
Speaker 3: Scope and breadth of the sickness and pathology. And somebody
Speaker 3: got to tell about it. Somebody got to be canned
Speaker 3: about it. Somebody got to be courageous enough to say,
Speaker 3: this is beyond sickness, y'all.
Speaker 2: And and this is probably some of the reasons.
Speaker 1: I mean, we could fast forward to today, the twenty
Speaker 1: first century real quick, because we go in and out
Speaker 1: of history because we want people to understand the relevance.
Speaker 1: If you want to understand why the criminal the legal
Speaker 1: system treats black people differently, all we got to do
Speaker 1: is go back to the root. You know, all of
Speaker 1: these things are not happening in isolation. And that's what
Speaker 1: we need people to know. Is connected, all intricately connected. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: So it is a pathology. It is a sickness. You know,
Speaker 1: even when black people were being lynched. I mean they
Speaker 1: would bring out the whole community then and take pictures
Speaker 1: and take the photograph.
Speaker 2: They were posed with the bodies. They would even have
Speaker 2: their babies out there. Doc, they have their little kids
Speaker 2: out there pose. It was like a community gathering.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah the picture.
Speaker 1: Yes, just you know what, when we come forward. When
Speaker 1: we come forward, we will continue this conversation. This discussion
Speaker 1: is teaching really about the great the first black heavyweight
Speaker 1: champion of the world, the one and only Jack Johnson.
Speaker 1: He was heavyweight champion from nineteen oh eight to nineteen fifteen.
Speaker 1: He gave Black people so much pride and he shook
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Yes he did.
Speaker 1: When we continue, you are listening to Truth Time with
Speaker 1: Doctor Cornell West and Nina Turner. Today is our teaching
Speaker 1: Thursday Day, and as we do every Thursday, we bring
Speaker 1: somebody to the four something for you to think about,
Speaker 1: either an issue or a person. Today we are talking
Speaker 1: about the Great Jack Johnson, the Galveston a giant, the
Speaker 1: first black man to be heavyweight champion.
Speaker 2: Of the world. He was all of that.
Speaker 1: He and doctor in your words, he was a symbol
Speaker 1: of dignity, respect, and triumph. Let's gone point bring that
Speaker 1: back into the room. He was all of that for
Speaker 1: black people. Black people were living areousleep through Jack Johnson.
Speaker 1: He had so many burdens on him. He had to
Speaker 1: carry ten everything on his back, like pride, like dignity,
Speaker 1: black respect, but also how white America felt about black people.
Speaker 2: He had to carry.
Speaker 1: Both of those, both of those weights, doc, and those
Speaker 1: are heavy, very heavy. If you just joining us, please
Speaker 1: make sure that you download the KBLA so that you
Speaker 1: can go back and listen to the beginning of this doc.
Speaker 1: You laid some really good surprises on us that the
Speaker 1: one and only Prince the Purple One himself Admyer Jack Johns.
Speaker 1: I can't get over that right now. I just cannot.
Speaker 1: I can't let it go.
Speaker 4: No, it's it's true.
Speaker 3: But Miles Davis, Miles Davis was so crazy about Jack Johnson.
Speaker 3: Miles in the state, wasn't Jack Johnson in the world
Speaker 3: of the white supremacist music industry? Because the music industry
Speaker 3: is very much like the industry of athletics. You've got
Speaker 3: some of the greatest geniuses and talents in the industry,
Speaker 3: none of them making the most money. Because the most
Speaker 3: money is made by the owners. The most Moneys made.
Speaker 3: We're in control of the industry. So here Miles coming along,
Speaker 3: and he is the major figure. I love Training, I
Speaker 3: love Monk, I love man Lou Williams, but Miles, everybody
Speaker 3: know what's the great symbol. And so everybody's coming at him,
Speaker 3: trying to make money on him, trying to getim into
Speaker 3: the studio, produce albums, so they get most of the
Speaker 3: money from the albums. And he looks at Jack Johnson
Speaker 3: as one of his sources of inspiration prints same thing.
Speaker 4: You know, genius in the music industry.
Speaker 3: Most of the money of his albums doesn't go to him.
Speaker 4: He put slave on his he did, doesn't go to him.
Speaker 4: Ooh no, nothing else.
Speaker 3: Jack Johnson has an impact across time and a generation.
Speaker 3: I mean, one of the sad things about Jack Johnson
Speaker 3: was that, you know, he does himself get knocked out
Speaker 3: in nineteen fifteen by Jess Willard White Brother, and then
Speaker 3: he goes to jail, comes back, goes back to jail,
Speaker 3: and he lives another, oh almost twenty six years. And
Speaker 3: when Joe Louis gains the title in nineteen thirty seven,
Speaker 3: white folkus said, will never ever have a black champion again.
Speaker 3: So between nineteen fifteen and nineteen thirty seven, it was
Speaker 3: all white Joe Louis comes back. But when Joe Louis
Speaker 3: comes back, Jack Johnson can't say a good word about it, no,
Speaker 3: he you know, And Joe Louis had to keep an
Speaker 3: image that was the opposite of Jack Johnson. Never take
Speaker 3: a picture of any white woman, never say nothing political,
Speaker 3: never be too a thirty you know, much more quiet
Speaker 3: him and so forth, and so Yeah, Johnson really didn't
Speaker 3: give Joe Lewis the kind of encouragement that I would
Speaker 3: have liked.
Speaker 1: Se was he jealousy, you know, I don't know what
Speaker 1: it was.
Speaker 2: He's an old man and he's bitterness.
Speaker 3: Or form, and Joe Lewis was trying to keep distance
Speaker 3: from him because he was just too evocative.
Speaker 4: So it's Joe Lewis's fault part.
Speaker 3: But I would have thought, as an older man with
Speaker 3: a younger brother, I think you and me young people,
Speaker 3: you want to do all you can to encourage them,
Speaker 3: no matter how different they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had to carry a lot. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna lean towards the Galveston I'm just gonna lean towards him,
Speaker 1: just given all that he had to go through sometimes
Speaker 1: different pressures. So black people as a whole are always
Speaker 1: under pressure, but there's certain times in our history where
Speaker 1: that pressure cooker.
Speaker 2: Is higher, higher than other times.
Speaker 1: And I would say that Jack Johnson had to endure
Speaker 1: the highest level of the heat, you know, telling how
Speaker 1: he was feeling.
Speaker 2: Now, that doesn't mean that I.
Speaker 1: Agree with everything that you said in terms of him
Speaker 1: being the elder in this situation, and he could have
Speaker 1: been more magnanimous than he was.
Speaker 2: But my god, all that he had to endure in
Speaker 2: his lifetime, you know, sometimes you just don't think, you
Speaker 2: can't think straight. You know, we're all human.
Speaker 1: Everything that he had to carry in every black athlete
Speaker 1: to a certain extent, even to today, still have to
Speaker 1: carry the burden and the beauty of being black judged differently,
Speaker 1: different set of rules. If they make a mistake or
Speaker 1: they act out, you know, society comes down harder on them,
Speaker 1: even to this very moment.
Speaker 4: You know, Oh, Nook, no, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 3: But you remember there's a brother named Frank Chiles who
Speaker 3: was the greatest black boxer. When when Jack Johnson was
Speaker 3: young and he was he took Jack Johnsons under his wings,
Speaker 3: taught him the science of boxing encouraged him, and finally
Speaker 3: Jack Johnson beat Frank Childs. But Frank always viewed him
Speaker 3: as somebody he could pour the best of him into
Speaker 3: Jack Johnson and went through a lot too.
Speaker 4: But he's still poured put into the young brother.
Speaker 3: And the thing is, it's important for older folks that
Speaker 3: just keep pouring. We got to keep pouring into these
Speaker 3: young folks, no matter how confused they are, what we think,
Speaker 3: they off the wall, are different than us and so on.
Speaker 4: You know what I mean. That's how you keep the
Speaker 4: tradition alive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do that. Then you gonna have to remind
Speaker 2: me of that.
Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna be a little like Jack Johnson looking
Speaker 1: at some of these younger people sideways.
Speaker 4: That's not true.
Speaker 2: I mean I'm a mentor.
Speaker 1: I pour into young people all the time, but sometimes
Speaker 1: I get in my feelings about what in that, what
Speaker 1: y'all do?
Speaker 4: What is going?
Speaker 2: What is going on? What is going at Homes?
Speaker 3: He poured into Larry Homes. Homes was a young brother.
Speaker 3: He picked up on the camp boxing and practicing. Next thing,
Speaker 3: you know, knocking muhammadad out in the ring, world champion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, we we go lift up brother
Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali, and there is only one Ali.
Speaker 2: So we will on one.
Speaker 1: Of our future teaching Thursdays talk about float like a butterfly,
Speaker 1: sting like of me, the one and only Muhammad Ali.
Speaker 1: All of these athletes, in their own way, some really
Speaker 1: put a lot on the line. Jack Johnson is certainly
Speaker 1: one of those people having to be that kind of symbol.
Speaker 2: So I want to go back to the so the whole.
Speaker 1: You know how he was vilified not only for what
Speaker 1: he did in the ring, but how he comported himself personally.
Speaker 1: But you know, he a free man. He should be
Speaker 1: able to comport himself as long as he not violating anybody.
Speaker 1: She should be able to walk around and do and
Speaker 1: date and marry whoever he wants to date and marry.
Speaker 2: But oh no, that was not so. I just want
Speaker 2: to go back to that dock.
Speaker 1: On October eighteenth, nineteen twelve, Johnson was arrested on the
Speaker 1: grounds that his relationship with Lucy Cameron.
Speaker 2: Violated the Man Act.
Speaker 1: I need our listeners to understand that this government, this
Speaker 1: is the United States of America, created a whole a
Speaker 1: whole rule changes similar to what we see going on
Speaker 1: right now.
Speaker 2: See all this stuff is connected.
Speaker 1: They change the rules of the game. So the man
Speaker 1: acts briefly transporting women, they might as well just gonna
Speaker 1: put white women in there. But transporting women across state
Speaker 1: lines for immoral purposes.
Speaker 2: The nerve, the nerve, doc, I mean the nerve. You know,
Speaker 2: my grandmother would probably say more nerve than the brass
Speaker 2: a monkey.
Speaker 1: The nerve transporting women across state lines for immoral purposes.
Speaker 1: Do you know how many black women were transported across
Speaker 1: the Atlantic Ocean.
Speaker 2: For immoral purposes? The nerve, the nerve, doct.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's it. They arrested him. They arrested him
Speaker 1: due to her being an alleged prostitute. So now they
Speaker 1: have made the white woman a prostitute and said that
Speaker 1: the black man was transporting her across state lines.
Speaker 2: For moral purposes. Basically, they was calling him a pimp.
Speaker 4: That's true.
Speaker 2: Changing the rules because this man beat.
Speaker 1: Them in the boxing range that I don't know, you
Speaker 1: do something with it.
Speaker 2: Oh you know what that we got, we got we
Speaker 2: gotta come forward. When we come forward, I want to
Speaker 2: hear what doctor Wells's gonna do and what we just
Speaker 2: laid out. You're listening to truth, Tom.
Speaker 1: They is teaching Thursday one of our favorite days, doctor West,
Speaker 1: and ask myself, we really love doing our teaching Thursdays,
Speaker 1: and we know you enjoy too the feedback that we
Speaker 1: get about teaching Thursdays, so we really do appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Today we're talking about the heavyweight, the first African American
Speaker 1: heavyweight champion, Jack Johnson, known as the Galbleston Giant. He
Speaker 1: was born in eighteen seventy eight. He went to the
Speaker 1: ancestral plane in nineteen forty six. He was heavyweight champion
Speaker 1: from nineteen oh eight to nineteen fifteen. So that we
Speaker 1: were talking a little bit about the Man Act and
Speaker 1: how the white power structure changes the rules of the
Speaker 1: game when black people are gaining, you know, and I'm
Speaker 1: using the word gaining loosely because use the four hundred
Speaker 1: years would have been had been done to us over time.
Speaker 1: I don't even know we ever will catch up, but
Speaker 1: but we oft to try, you know, we really want
Speaker 1: to try.
Speaker 2: So the Man Act.
Speaker 1: Lucy Cameron, white woman that Jack Johnson was in a
Speaker 1: relationship with, they created a whole act saying that he
Speaker 1: was transporting women. It was illegal to transport women across
Speaker 1: state lines. For more purposes. They made Cameron a prostitute
Speaker 1: and basically him a penmp. So, Doc, that's that's how
Speaker 1: we left.
Speaker 4: What say you, I'll tell you Yeah.
Speaker 3: Because the Man Act itself, supposedly when it was first established,
Speaker 3: was trying to keep track of the interstate trafficking of women,
Speaker 3: specifically women involved in a.
Speaker 4: Certain kind of slavery.
Speaker 3: They used Act against him in part because her parents
Speaker 3: said that it was against her will. When they asked her,
Speaker 3: she said, it is not against my will.
Speaker 1: My crazy because she was a black man, so she
Speaker 1: got to be crazy.
Speaker 3: They said, what other category could we use Chile that
Speaker 3: we raised, namely crazy because she fell in love with
Speaker 3: Jack Johnson, John one of the most intelligent, charming, stylish,
Speaker 3: smiling brothers you ever want to meet in your life.
Speaker 3: Ain't no doubt about that, just like Miles Davis, just
Speaker 3: like Prince, just.
Speaker 4: Like Muhammad Ali.
Speaker 3: Now it's not granted, you know, it's gonna be a
Speaker 3: whole lot of women who fall in love with Muhammad Ali, Prince,
Speaker 3: Miles Davis, because these are lovable brothers.
Speaker 4: Ain't no doubt about that. They very lovable.
Speaker 1: Attraction to power, The attraction power is attracting.
Speaker 2: It's a magnet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we still got these situations going on to
Speaker 1: this day.
Speaker 2: We could do a whole teaching you know what, not Tiffany.
Speaker 1: You know, my Tiffany was was you know, her significant
Speaker 1: other was you know, ventured into professional athlete world and
Speaker 1: in football, and some of the stories that Tiffany shared
Speaker 1: with me about these women, it's real, you know, not
Speaker 1: not to say that some of the athletes don't take
Speaker 1: advantage of women who are attracted to this. However, tif
Speaker 1: tiff got me straight on it. She said, straight up,
Speaker 1: it's an industry where women deliberately Okay, they owned the prow.
Speaker 1: They absolutely owned the prow. You hardly listening to True
Speaker 1: Time with Doctor Cornell West and Nina Turner. We are
Speaker 1: engaged in our teaching Thursday, lifting up, Lifting up the
Speaker 1: life and the legacy of the one and only Jack job.
Speaker 2: Today on our.
Speaker 1: Teaching Thursday, Doctor West and I were talking about Jack Johnson,
Speaker 1: known as the Galveston a Giant. He was the heavyweight
Speaker 1: champion from nineteen oh eight to nineteen fifteen. As Doc
Speaker 1: has laid out, he certainly was a symbol of dignity,
Speaker 1: respect and triumph for black people who were living out
Speaker 1: all of their hopes and their dreams through this man in.
Speaker 2: The boxing ring.
Speaker 1: He reached the height of prominence during the Jim Crow era,
Speaker 1: which every era for black people is tough, but Baby,
Speaker 1: that era was a hard era. As he defeated white
Speaker 1: men in the boxing ring, the white world lost their
Speaker 1: minds and they took out that vengeance on the Black
Speaker 1: community time and time again, and the system itself found
Speaker 1: a way to try to stop halts, slow down, and
Speaker 1: even destroy the Galison Giant. But he held up strong
Speaker 1: doc through it all. In our remaining moments, just what
Speaker 1: of an incredible light? He was an incredible human being.
Speaker 1: He was not perfect, most are perfect, but he came
Speaker 1: and he was that symbol that black people really desperately needed.
Speaker 2: At that time.
Speaker 4: That's exactly right.
Speaker 3: And he showed that black excellence is always a threat
Speaker 3: to white supremacy, that black freedom.
Speaker 2: Doctor, you say that? Can you say that one more time?
Speaker 2: Black excellence is always.
Speaker 4: A threat, always a threat to white supremacy.
Speaker 3: Black freedom always a threat to white supress and black
Speaker 3: dignity is always a threat to black.
Speaker 4: To white supremacy.
Speaker 3: And that's why that Jack Johnson, this princess, the Miles
Speaker 3: Davis is in their excellence, tied to dignity and freedom
Speaker 3: is subversive to any white supremacist order, and that's why
Speaker 3: they often occur.
Speaker 2: And always being in the pressure cooker, you know.
Speaker 3: Oh lord, yeah, oh lord, yeah.
Speaker 1: And even now how black people have internalized how we
Speaker 1: must comport ourselves. But it's also a survival it's a
Speaker 1: survival mechanism.
Speaker 2: Too, that's been passed down.
Speaker 1: That's right, because you would get killed, like physically killed,
Speaker 1: mouth off. You couldn't look white people in the face.
Speaker 1: You had to cross the street, you know, get off
Speaker 1: the sidewalk.
Speaker 2: If there were sidewalks, move out the way.
Speaker 1: Any white person, regardless of their age or station could
Speaker 1: call your boy or girl and if that that instinct
Speaker 1: to protect and defend yourself rapped up, you could be killed.
Speaker 2: They were killed, many were killed.
Speaker 4: That's exactly.
Speaker 1: So we had to comport ourselves a certain way, we
Speaker 1: had to dress a certain way, We had to be
Speaker 1: extra just to survive, just to survive, doc, that's that's something.
Speaker 4: It will.
Speaker 3: So you don't have to gilling you to be attacked, assassinated.
Speaker 3: You could be Jack Johnson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could be Jack Johnson. That is it. That
Speaker 2: is it. I want to. I want to, John Carlos, Yes,
Speaker 2: all of that. All of that well, in the words
Speaker 2: of the immortal.
Speaker 1: Jack Johnson, love is the answer at least for most
Speaker 1: of the questions in my heart.
Speaker 2: Why are we here? And where do we go? And
Speaker 2: how comes so hard? I'll come.
Speaker 1: It's so hard that Jack Johnson the Galveston a giant
Speaker 1: living from eighteen seventy eight to nineteen forty six, was
Speaker 1: the heavyweight champion from nineteen oh eight to nineteen fifteen.
Speaker 2: All of us owe a great.
Speaker 1: Debt of gratitude for the courage, conviction, style, and gifts
Speaker 1: of the one and only Johnson. You've been listening to
Speaker 1: Truth Time with Doctor Know What's and Nina Turner. We
Speaker 1: want you to live on purpose, live your purpose, and
Speaker 1: remember always the titles are good, the purpose is better.