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True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.239 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 32 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:49.079 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 33 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.920 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime 34 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.239 History and the authors that have written about them. It 35 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.200 is all the bodies of some of his victims in 36 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.439 ascid and poured them down the sewer. He hung grizzly 37 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:04.480 souvenirs on nails in his junkyard. Charles Canegila was a 38 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:07.519 stone cold killer who fell in with the bloodthirsty John 39 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:11.319 Gaudy crew as the infamous crime family rose to power 40 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:15.319 with the murderous trail of sex, jealousy, greed and revenge. 41 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:20.039 Carnegilia rose with them. This is the horrifying story of 42 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:22.680 a misfit who fit perfectly into the New York mafia. 43 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:27.280 In a harrowing journey inside a ruthless criminal Underworld. Underworld, 44 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:32.120 Bulletzer Prize winning reporter Anthony M. Di Stefano chronicles one 45 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:35.199 man's life in a world of depraved acts of violence 46 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:38.000 and the horrors that went with being a member of 47 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:42.560 the Gambino family. The book featured this evening is Mob 48 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:47.319 Killer with my special guests, journalist and author Anthony M. 49 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:49.879 Di Stefano. Thank you very much for agreeing to this 50 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.840 interview and welcome back to the program. Anthony di Stefano. 51 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:55.960 Thank you very much for having me again. 52 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:58.759 Thank you very much. It's going to be a very 53 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:06.120 interesting program again the inside scoop on the most infamous 54 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:09.400 mafioso characters and very very interesting book. I got to 55 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:11.360 congratulate you again ford it once. 56 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:12.039 You get very much. 57 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:17.280 Okay, first off, just for people that might not know you, 58 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:21.759 maybe you can tell us how you really came to 59 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:24.719 do this story and why you decided to write about 60 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.680 this particular case. What brought you to this story. 61 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:32.120 Well, I had been covering, you know, the federal courts 62 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:36.280 for one of the newspaper in New York and Charlie 63 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:41.680 Carnegilier's trial was one that came up into my area 64 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:46.680 and I covered the trial, and let me tell you, 65 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:50.400 it was an eye opener in many ways. And of 66 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:54.240 course my publisher was interested in the character after having 67 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:56.599 seen the book on Joe Massina that I had written, 68 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:00.000 and asked me to do it. And I was little, 69 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.240 I'm clear or uncertain in the beginning, because his life 70 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:08.080 spanned thirty years in the crime family, and it was 71 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.599 you know, here and there and everywhere. But finally, you know, 72 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:15.439 a story emerged, particularly through the trial transcript that I 73 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:20.720 spent a Christmas vacation reading, and it came together slowly 74 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:22.000 but surely over time. 75 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:29.600 Right now, tell us first, obviously, Charles Knagia is the 76 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.519 main character in this story, but there is so much 77 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:35.519 of a supporting cast here that really are very very 78 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:38.560 important to the story. So no money really is the 79 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:42.680 real focus, because it's such a tangled web and interconnected 80 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:47.879 between all these characters. So maybe first tell us about 81 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:52.079 Charles and John Carnegia and tell us what kind of 82 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:55.040 characters both of these people are, because it's very important 83 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:58.279 to the story. And you can maybe even include another 84 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:01.319 important figure in this, and that's Charles and John's mother 85 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:03.079 Genie right. 86 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:08.720 Well, John Carneglias. Some aficionados of mob history may recall, 87 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:13.040 was one of the chief confederates of the late John 88 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:17.639 Gottie and Charles. John was not that much older than 89 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:20.639 his brother Charles, but he was certainly the better place 90 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:24.600 kind of guy, the more charismatic character, and the person 91 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:28.920 who you know, he had the trampings of a regular life, 92 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.160 so to speak. He married, had some number of kids, 93 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:34.519 and you know, had a house in Howard Beach where 94 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:37.639 a lot of the guys who were in the crime families, 95 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:41.519 you know, seemed to go, would gravitate towards and Charlie 96 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.800 was kind of the misfit. He was the guy who 97 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:51.600 had drinking problems, drug problems, relationship problems. He would you know, 98 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:56.199 he was volatile, He was moody. He you know, if 99 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:58.240 he was in a bad mood, you know, watch out 100 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.959 kind of character. He know, everybody sort of I guess 101 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:06.399 you know, a neer do well brother or uncle. You know, 102 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:09.800 you might be able to compare him to that. And well, 103 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:13.800 of course, with John Carneglia being tight with the Goudy 104 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:17.519 crew out of his own park, Charlie was kind of 105 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.399 a tagalong guy. You know. He would help his brother, 106 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:23.240 He would associate with a lot of the crime family guys, 107 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:26.720 and gradually, you know, got to be reliable because he 108 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:31.079 would do certain pieces of work and you know, he 109 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:33.519 was a guy they could like a fall back upon 110 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.240 if they needed somebody to be killed. And that's what 111 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:41.240 the evidence in the K showed. And the family was, 112 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:44.279 you know, his family, his regular family was not much 113 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.800 of a you know, nothing outstanding. I mean, the mother, Jenny, 114 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:50.879 was a seamstress. The father I think was a used 115 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:54.279 cross salesman. Bill. He sort of died I think sometime 116 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:59.040 maybe in the nineteen seventies or early eighties, and Jenny 117 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:03.480 became the the person Charlie and to some extent his 118 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:07.560 brother John focused on because maybe it was guilt. Maybe 119 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:09.519 they felt like they were giving us so much grief 120 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:12.319 with all their problems that you know, they had to 121 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.839 take care of her, and they did. And Charlie when 122 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:19.040 his brother got sentenced to fifty years on a drug case, 123 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:21.120 he was Charlie who was the one who was at 124 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:24.839 home taking care of mom. And as she progressed through 125 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:28.519 the years and became more in you know, enfeebled, he 126 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:30.600 was the one, you know, she had she had to 127 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:34.360 rely upon. So that was kind of a redeeming facet 128 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:37.399 of Charles, at least some people's mind, that he really 129 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:41.879 did take care of his mother. And another thing which 130 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.040 people point out is that he did like little kids. 131 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:48.759 You know, he was very sort of paternal and you know, 132 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:54.160 like toddlers, particularly like you know, like a like a 133 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:57.079 gregarious uncle towards him. He never had any kids of 134 00:07:57.079 --> 00:07:59.360 his own. He never married, although he had a number 135 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.920 of girlfriends. But you know, in his life and him 136 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:08.720 being the character, he was volatile, you know, moody drinker 137 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:12.079 and drug user. You know, these relationships were not grant. 138 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:16.079 We're not destined for anything great. So whatever relationship he 139 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.560 did have, you know, they sort of didn't go very far. 140 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:21.759 And I think he did want to marry one of 141 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:24.439 the one of the women, but you know, she didn't 142 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:26.240 want to have anything to do with it. In the end, 143 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.800 it just wasn't gonna work. He was kind of a broken, 144 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.240 valast kind of guy, you know, towards the end of 145 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:32.720 his life. 146 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.600 Right now, just for the audience, I thought it was 147 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:39.360 very interesting and I've heard this before, but it was 148 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:42.399 reinforced because it's very important to the story. Is that 149 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:47.000 when you talked about Charles being characterized by being a 150 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:51.240 drunk and volatile and unreliable, and ends up he's not 151 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:54.600 a big earner, really relative and not much of a 152 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:57.639 mobster in comparison to his brother. Will say, at least 153 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:01.120 there in three different leaks now explained for us for 154 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:06.039 the audience, how much being a drug user and even 155 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:09.879 the big rule that seems to be overlooked, but how 156 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:12.120 important it is to this story about drugs itself. Tell 157 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:13.879 us about the role of drugs. If he through a 158 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.879 drug user, and if you deal drugs, what what's the 159 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:19.639 mafia's viewpoint on this? 160 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:25.960 Well, you know, the the traditional rule was that the 161 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:28.559 mob wasn't supposed to deal in drugs, you know, certainly 162 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:32.039 back in the old days, but everybody knows, you know 163 00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:36.559 that that rule was readily ignored and it's readily ignored today. 164 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:42.159 And Charles was involved in a marijuana operation, so the 165 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:47.480 evidence showed he would use drugs himself. He would drink. 166 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:51.840 And you know, even though the big bosses and certainly 167 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:55.600 the old legendary bosses like Carlo Gambino or you know, 168 00:09:55.639 --> 00:10:00.799 Tommy Lucase and so much that Messino did liked drugs, 169 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.519 so people to deal with them, you know, it was 170 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:05.279 the fact of life in the mob, and it's the 171 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:07.960 fact of life today. A lot of the big earners 172 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:12.200 in the mob were into drugs. In fact, if Youdo 173 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.600 Genevieve himself got convicted in a drug case and sent 174 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:22.240 away ultimately, so that's a myth. These guys did use. 175 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.200 You'd be surprised at how many of the old mob 176 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.360 guys were using drugs, particularly in the Bonano crime family. 177 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:31.279 There are a number of guys who got hooked on cocaine. 178 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.799 One of John god the late John Gotti's guys, Anthony Rampino, 179 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:40.799 had a problem with heroin which affected him all of 180 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:44.679 his life. Charles had a problem with drug use. He 181 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:49.919 also had a bigger problem sees with alcohol. Normally, this 182 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.039 could get you killed because you know, you would be 183 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:57.000 seen as an unreliable guy or somebody who would get 184 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.120 into trouble and possibly flip and become a government withnes 185 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:05.679 or just talk too much or not do very do 186 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:08.879 very well in any kind of assignment you had. And 187 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.399 Charles had all these problems. But I think because his 188 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:17.879 brother was John, and I think because he had through 189 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:21.159 that channel anyway, and in with John the Lake John Gotti, 190 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:25.399 Charlie got to pass you know, he could have been 191 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:28.519 killed if he was anybody else. I think for the 192 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.440 way he abused drugs and the way he was sort 193 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.720 of a flake. Uh. Now, I'm not saying he didn't 194 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:39.240 kill people. He evid has showed that he did, but 195 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:42.360 you know, he did in a sort of a haphazard 196 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:48.519 kind of way, and his volatility confrontation with people brought 197 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:52.559 heat onto the crime family and you know, became he 198 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:55.440 became risky, but he had a he had a good 199 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:59.679 ind and he was able to survive and not many 200 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:00.440 people do that. 201 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:03.559 Now, let's talk, but we won't get too far ahead. 202 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.559 I think we can save this for a little bit later, 203 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.360 as you do in the book. But tell us who 204 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.559 Kevin McMahon is. At first, he's a homeless Howard Beach 205 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:16.039 person that Charles and John and Charles meet and befriend, 206 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:19.240 and he's been very important to the story obviously. Tell 207 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:22.279 us how it came to be that Kevin McMahon was 208 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.960 taken in by John and Charles Carnagilan. 209 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.879 Kevin McMahon was basically a street urchin. He you know, 210 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.039 in Dickens' time, he would have fallen in with Fagan's 211 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:38.919 crew probably, But here and Howard Beach. Kevin's parents mother 212 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.120 and father I think had drug issues. He was living 213 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:47.000 with his grandmother, but when he started messing around stealing cars, 214 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.720 the grandmother threw him out. So where did he go. 215 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:55.240 He lived in the cabana sort of pool house that 216 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:58.600 John Cardneglie had in his bankyard. You know, it usually 217 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:02.000 was warm months he could live there. And they discovered 218 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:04.279 him there and you know, they kind of, I guess, 219 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:09.120 took pity on him and took him into their fold, 220 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.039 as it were. He became part of the family. He 221 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:14.320 wasn't adopted in a real sense, but he became like 222 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.639 an unofficial family member. But so tight he was with 223 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:22.320 the Carneglia is that. You know, he would go on 224 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.960 vacations with him. They came to his wedding, you know, 225 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:33.159 they see about jobs for him. He became an adjunct 226 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:36.279 to the to their their blood family. And of course 227 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:41.240 with John and Charles being into the crime family, it 228 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:44.519 wasn't didn't take much for Kevin to become like a 229 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:49.840 loyal sort of servant, first, you know, to John, and 230 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:53.720 then when John got jailed with Charlie, and Charlie was 231 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:57.279 the guy he piled around with and Actually, Kevin was 232 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.919 kind of a stabilizing influence on Charles because the mobsters 233 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:05.000 wanted Kevin to keep an eye at on Charlie because 234 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:09.200 you know, once he started drinking or did drugs or whatever, 235 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.440 he needed somebody to sort of tamper him down and 236 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.240 you know, keep a handle on him, to the watch 237 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:19.159 over him. And that was Kevin's role. But by being 238 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:22.919 so close to Charlie, Kevin saw a lot, he heard 239 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.480 a lot, and in some cases he did things that 240 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:30.600 put him into contact with the criminal ventures. One of 241 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:37.080 them was the assassination of Louis de Bono, who angered 242 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:41.000 the John Gotti Sr. By not coming to a meeting 243 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:45.360 when he was called. So Kevin was kind of a 244 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.519 He wasn't a shooter or anything, but he was involved 245 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.799 in procuring the car, I think even driving to the 246 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:57.399 ultimate assassination scene. So Ken, you know, by not doing 247 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:02.080 anything too heavily criminal, he implicated himself with some bad 248 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:05.399 things by being close to Charles. So when Kevin got 249 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:10.320 into problems, the fans were able to target him. And 250 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:15.080 once Kevin got targeted, uh, you know, it was a 251 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:17.759 short time before you know, they were able to make 252 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.159 a cooperating witness out of him. 253 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:23.200 Okay, before we get into that, let's let's try to 254 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:27.200 draw the for our audience the lines between this Gambino 255 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:29.960 family and John Gotti, so that everyone's clear. 256 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:30.720 Uh. 257 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:35.759 We've spoken already about John Gotti receiving a sense of sentence. 258 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:39.960 And then there's of course Gotti Jr. John Jr. Who 259 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:45.360 effectively takes over, uh takes over the crew or takes 260 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:49.039 over the work of his father. But some people are 261 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.279 not so happy about that and are not true. 262 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.919 John Gotti, as you I think you're well aware, was 263 00:15:57.960 --> 00:15:59.759 the head of the family, and he got there by 264 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:06.080 this coup with the assassination of Forecastellano I think it 265 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:11.039 was late nineteen eighty five. Gotti, of course, was the 266 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:18.639 ascendant power. John Carneglia was under John Gotti, and by association, 267 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:23.720 Charlie was part of that orbit as it were. When 268 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.960 when John Gotti Sr. Was convicted and sent away, the 269 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:31.919 family went into a state of flux, and there were 270 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.120 a number of people running it, this sort of an 271 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.759 acting committee, if you will, and one of them was 272 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:45.159 Gotty's son, John what I called John Junior. Some people 273 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:50.519 weren't happy with that. They thought it was just pure nepotism, 274 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:55.200 and even Charlie was not happy with that. But after 275 00:16:55.240 --> 00:17:00.919 a while, Charlie had to be aligned with somebody and 276 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:03.759 he became, the evidence showed in the case, under the 277 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.160 wing of John Gotti Junior. So he was part of 278 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.799 John Junior's world at least for a time. And that's 279 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:15.079 how this all wines up. You had Senior the top 280 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.720 dog until he goes away, and then his son, Junior, 281 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:21.960 at least for a short period anyway, was running some things, 282 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:27.799 and then ultimately the captain of Charlie and Charlie for 283 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.759 a while anyway was under it was under Junior. That's 284 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:31.599 how that breaks out. 285 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:35.839 Now, why tell us about Vincent and Peter Gotty and 286 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.480 why and what were their roles and why why were 287 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:42.200 they not able to take control of this family? 288 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:47.880 Well, you know Peter John Gotti Senior's brother. 289 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:52.759 Hello, it is Ryan, And we could all use an 290 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:55.079 extra bright spot in our day, could we just to 291 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.000 make up for things like sitting in traffic doing the dishes, 292 00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:00.480 counting or steps, you know, all the Monday and stuff. 293 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.240 That is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. 294 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.720 Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games. 295 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:10.880 You can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses 296 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.400 that should brighten your day. 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But Peter, ultimately, 318 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.720 i think, because of just that there were so few 319 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:21.680 people left through indictments and murders or whatever, ultimately did 320 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:26.279 take over as head of the family, and in fact, 321 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:30.759 law enforcement now carries him officially. We've seen this in 322 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:32.759 a number of trials as the head of the Gamebino 323 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.119 crime family at least a name. But he's in jail 324 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.440 for life. So it's really a sort of a sort 325 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:42.119 of a hollow position. There's really nothing to do. There 326 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.960 was a brother, Vincent, a little lesser known brother who 327 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:49.519 had it seeing his own drug problems, really wasn't thought 328 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:53.039 about very well on the street, and he got convicted 329 00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:59.359 in the same case essentially with Charles. Ultimately, the Charles 330 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:03.000 was undoing. So you had Vincent Gotti sent away, you 331 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:08.880 had Peter Gotty sent away. John Gotti Senior dead and 332 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:12.960 of course jailed and died in prison. John Gotti Junior, 333 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.599 at least for a time up until maybe nineteen ninety nine, 334 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:19.279 was involved in the crime family. I mean he's more 335 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:22.799 or less admitted that in his own federal trials, but 336 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.599 as you're probably well aware, and he had four miss 337 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.480 trials on a federal case, and he claims he's out 338 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:34.279 of the crime business and has been for quite some period. Sure. 339 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.480 Now, that's another fascinating thing. I think you mentioned in 340 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:40.359 the book too, that a lot of people are very 341 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.240 aware of this story, maybe not knowing the sort of 342 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:45.880 victim's name, but they know of the story where John 343 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:50.720 Gotti's youngest son, Frankie, is accidentally killed by a man 344 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:54.279 named John Favera. And tell us about that whole story, 345 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:55.720 because of course it's very important to what. 346 00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:58.240 Yeah, it's one of the great legends of mob Loore, 347 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:03.759 you know, in a nutshell, a little Frankie Gotti, I 348 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.160 think it was twelve or thirteen at the time, was 349 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.839 on a motorbike in the Howard Beach area and he 350 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:14.440 got hit run over by a car driven by John Favarro, 351 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:18.240 happened to be a neighbor of the Gotti family. It 352 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:19.920 was a great you and cry, and it was of course, 353 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:24.559 it was a great tragedy for the family. And it 354 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:26.880 didn't of course, not only did it not sit well 355 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:32.359 with John Gotti and his own family. But John Favara, 356 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:34.839 it seemed sort of, at least from some of the histories, 357 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:43.599 aggravated the family by really not showing much contrition. And 358 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.200 you know, this is of course open to some debate, 359 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:51.680 but ultimately the bad blood persisted and it really sent 360 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.400 a lot of the John Gotti himself into depression and 361 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:01.440 it seemed perhaps some anger. So ultimately John Favara disappeared, 362 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:07.839 and it seems as though if John Gottie Senior didn't 363 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:11.680 order his death, people close to him did take care 364 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:14.920 of John Favara. He disappeared. A lot of speculation as 365 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:17.680 to what happened to that hapless sort of driver of 366 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.880 the vehicle. But you know, there was speculation that he 367 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.359 his body was dumped at sea in some concrete. There 368 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.160 was talk to that was chopped up and put in 369 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:31.039 a car and then pressed into some you know, metal 370 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:35.200 yard or something like that. And in Charlie's case, the 371 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.960 witnesses came forward to say that based on what Charles 372 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:42.720 told him, Charles was given the task of dissolving the body, 373 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:47.119 and it was actually Angela Rogiro, the late Angela Roggeiro, 374 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.799 who gave him the task of dissolving John Favara's body. 375 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:55.160 Charlie at first sort of screwed it up. He didn't 376 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:58.920 use the right acid, according to the witnesses said in 377 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:03.839 the case. Ultimately he did get it right, the witnesses said, 378 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:10.680 and then took some of the bones of John Favara 379 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:12.240 to show that he could do the job. He took 380 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:15.440 some of the bones to the diner where Angela Roggiario 381 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:18.519 was having soup and dropped some of the bones into 382 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.000 the soupo and I said, listen, I was able to 383 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.559 take care of it. That's what the witnesses told us. 384 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:27.960 That's what they told the government. That came out at trial, 385 00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:30.440 came out in the context of the case in filings 386 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:35.480 a boy the government, and it was really rather amazing 387 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:38.079 story when the first surface, because that was always the 388 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.599 mystery what happened to John Favara. And although we don't 389 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.960 know for sure who killed him, it's likely that John 390 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:51.200 Gottie Senior had a role in this and got the 391 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:54.920 ball rolling Angela Rogeiro. It seemed the late Angela Rogiro 392 00:23:55.880 --> 00:24:00.400 was involved. Everybody involved was dead more or less, and 393 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:05.480 the disappearance of John Favara. But it seems that Charlie 394 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.000 was tasked with getting rid of the body. And that 395 00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:12.240 is the story that came back through various government court 396 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:16.000 documents that we saw filed in the case and some witnesses. 397 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.240 Now there's a few, quite a few more characters, and 398 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.759 we'll go through them because they become very important at 399 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.160 the trial, and of course into Charles Carnegila and all 400 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:31.519 the other mafioso members' lives. Can you tell us about 401 00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:35.599