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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Why we do what we do Mini. I am

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<v Speaker 1>your host, Abraham, I'm your oh, Shane. We are a

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<v Speaker 1>psychology podcast. We talk about the things that humans and

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<v Speaker 1>non human animals do, and sometimes we do both, which

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<v Speaker 1>is what we're taking on today. But this is a

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<v Speaker 1>mini which means that it's short, and we put these

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<v Speaker 1>out on Mondays. Our full length episodes come out on Wednesdays.

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<v Speaker 1>If you are joining us for the first time, then

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<v Speaker 1>welcome Thank you for being here. If you're a returning person,

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<v Speaker 1>then welcome back. We appreciate you hanging around with us.

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<v Speaker 1>Neither way. If you'd like to support us so you

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<v Speaker 1>can join us on Patreon, leave us a rating and

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<v Speaker 1>a review like subscribe, tell a friend. I'll talk more

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<v Speaker 1>about those at the end of this discussion. But we

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<v Speaker 1>kind of have a lot of content, so I want

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<v Speaker 1>to jump in here fairly quickly. But is there anything

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<v Speaker 1>that I missed or you would like to add as

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<v Speaker 1>part of our preamble before we get started, Shane, No,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think so okay. In the explosion of awareness

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<v Speaker 1>around autism and like neurodiversity more generally, into the zeitgeist.

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<v Speaker 1>Over the last couple of decades or so, discussions abound

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<v Speaker 1>about specify, in this case autism, what it is, why

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<v Speaker 1>it is, how it is, where it is a veritable

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<v Speaker 1>cornucopia of wh questions, and along with that comes wildly

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<v Speaker 1>over the top misconceptions and conspiracies. And sure, cool, glad

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<v Speaker 1>that that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess yeah, you know, it's that wonderful phenomenon where

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<v Speaker 2>people over generalize. Right now, So today we are going

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<v Speaker 2>to explore the extent to which animals can have autism,

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<v Speaker 2>what this would mean, and how we would know. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so we are simply going to apply that lens and

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<v Speaker 2>say what does it look like for autism in animals,

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<v Speaker 2>non human animals specifically.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so the whole idea this has become so widely

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<v Speaker 1>known that now we're thinking, well, maybe animals of autism

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<v Speaker 1>and humans have a long history of superimposing our experiences

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<v Speaker 1>of the world onto animate and even inanimate objects throughout history.

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<v Speaker 1>It's understandable in a sense that as we only have

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<v Speaker 1>our experiences to draw from, we don't necessarily consider that

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<v Speaker 1>these might not be universal across all living things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we tend to assume that whatever is going

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<v Speaker 2>on for all other things in the universe, it must

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<v Speaker 2>be analogous to our own behaviors and emotions in some

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<v Speaker 2>fundamental way. So this seems like a pretty audacious and

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<v Speaker 2>arrogant position to take, but it seems fairly common. We

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<v Speaker 2>are the center of the universe of course, as humans,

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<v Speaker 2>So why wouldn't that experience apply to everything in everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like, I know what it's like to have

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<v Speaker 1>the experiences I have. I am a human, and I

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<v Speaker 1>don't I'm not creative enough to think that yours might

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<v Speaker 1>be different. So yours must be similar to mine in

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<v Speaker 1>some particular way, and I'm just going to assume that

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<v Speaker 1>it is. Yeah, And among humans, I think we have

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about this awareness we have around things like neurodiversity.

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<v Speaker 1>We've gotten increasingly better at identifying and providing supports to

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<v Speaker 1>those of us who struggle with things that maybe feel

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<v Speaker 1>natural or normal to others of us, where sometimes language

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<v Speaker 1>develops a little bit different rate or in a different way,

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<v Speaker 1>or we don't necessarily find the same reinforcers in social

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<v Speaker 1>engagements and like the same motivation and desire to have

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<v Speaker 1>those And we have elected to call the way that

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<v Speaker 1>people show up differently in the world neuro divergent, which

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<v Speaker 1>of course implies that there is some normal from which

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<v Speaker 1>neurology can diverge. But anyway, that is a thing that

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<v Speaker 1>we've done, and it does help, like, it does help

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<v Speaker 1>provide supports that may be needed to people who might

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<v Speaker 1>need them. So for now, I think it's pragmatic to

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<v Speaker 1>identify that there is maybe a thing called neurodivergence because

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<v Speaker 1>there are some people who need more supports than others

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<v Speaker 1>in certain areas. But that's about as much as I'm

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<v Speaker 1>willing to give that, I think.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Now, there has been an increased effort in both

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<v Speaker 2>research and in culture to further cement our anthropomorphizing of

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<v Speaker 2>animals by mapping the labels we have assigned to arbitrary

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<v Speaker 2>taxonomies of behavior onto animal behaviors. So for some reason,

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<v Speaker 2>we want animals to have the same things that we do.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is what we're saying is professional and lay

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<v Speaker 2>people are trying to make the interpretation of human behavior

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<v Speaker 2>officially the same interpretation of animal behavior, Like they're finding

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<v Speaker 2>things like diagnoses. Officially, yeah, officially, they are trying to

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<v Speaker 2>superimpose the experience of humans onto animals, and it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>quite work like.

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<v Speaker 1>That, as we'll see, And I want to clarify my

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<v Speaker 1>point in saying that, Like, how the point I'm trying

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<v Speaker 1>to make, I think with saying this thing about like

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<v Speaker 1>the pragmatism involved in using a label of their divergence,

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<v Speaker 1>the issue I have is saying that, Like, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think there's such thing as normal, And I think that

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<v Speaker 1>when we treat something as neurodivergent, we're saying it is

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<v Speaker 1>pathological and inherently flawed. And I don't think that that's

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<v Speaker 1>always the case. I'm really trying to make the case

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<v Speaker 1>that just humans are different, some of us need some

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<v Speaker 1>more supports sometimes in certain areas than others, and if

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<v Speaker 1>the label helps you get those supports, then okay, I

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<v Speaker 1>guess that's helpful. But like I guess what I'm trying

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<v Speaker 1>to say is, like I feel like we end up

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<v Speaker 1>pathologizing people who are just show up in the world

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit differently. But what does differently even mean?

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<v Speaker 1>Because it's not like there is a norm from which

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<v Speaker 1>they really can divert There isn't normal, Like, you can't

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<v Speaker 1>be different if there's nothing to be different from, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So that's the only point I'm trying to make there.

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<v Speaker 1>So the question becomes, can our pets or non human

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<v Speaker 1>animals in general have autism or other diagnoses? Some race

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<v Speaker 1>think so by taking some of the characteristic features of

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<v Speaker 1>again starting with autism, that diagnosis such as social interaction

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<v Speaker 1>quote unquote, deficits language delays, maybe a fear of new

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<v Speaker 1>things they call neophobia, or even what might be species

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<v Speaker 1>specific things such as eye blinking. Apparently, they have attempted

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<v Speaker 1>to identify behavior patterns and animals that could be labeled

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<v Speaker 1>as autistic because of the correlates that they see when humans.

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<v Speaker 1>And also what they have attempted to do is isolate

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<v Speaker 1>genetic markers associated with autism and other diagnoses and look

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<v Speaker 1>for those similar genetic markers in these non human animals.

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<v Speaker 2>So while we kind of ponder that for a second,

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<v Speaker 2>here's an ad from pet Smart.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, we're back. We've been talking about essentially the move,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess, the advocacy, the attempt that people are making

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<v Speaker 1>to superimpose human experiences onto non human animals and classify

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<v Speaker 1>their behavior patterns in ways that map on with taxonomies

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<v Speaker 1>we have of pathologies that we've identified what we call

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<v Speaker 1>pathologies for humans.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So a twenty seventeen study found that the mutations on

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<v Speaker 2>the shank three gene associated with autism have also been

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<v Speaker 2>seen in some dogs, specifically beagles with this mutation seem

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<v Speaker 2>to have lower desire to interact with people. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I have a low desire to interact with people, but

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<v Speaker 2>like you know, I'm not a beagle.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we'll get to that too. There was also a

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<v Speaker 1>study out of Japan that reported that non human primates

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<v Speaker 1>can exhibit autistic like traits, such as going back to

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<v Speaker 1>this one social interaction deficits quote unquote deficits. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>worth noting that for all of the research that has

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<v Speaker 1>started to merge, what's important is that there is no

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<v Speaker 1>actual way, there's no formal, scientific, validated way to diagnose

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<v Speaker 1>non human animals as autistic. So the current number of

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<v Speaker 1>verified autistic non human animals is zero in the whole world.

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<v Speaker 3>Yep. That's actually I think really valid to know. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, there's skepticism about this, consider that there's natural

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<v Speaker 2>variability in how all creatures show up in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>and actually it would be flabbergasting if all animals of

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<v Speaker 2>a species behave the same way like that. Just doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>make any sense from a learning standpoint, from behavior a

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<v Speaker 2>variability standpoint, just doesn't make any sense. And this would

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<v Speaker 2>kind of defeat the ability of evolution to apply selective

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<v Speaker 2>pressure to adapt to different environments. So, are differing levels

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<v Speaker 2>of social preferences pathological or part of a natural species variability?

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<v Speaker 2>Are these behavior patterns learned as all behavior patterns are? Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>Feral animals are usually scared of humans? Is it because

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<v Speaker 2>they are autistic? That's a pretty flimsy argument to argue yes,

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<v Speaker 2>And then we can't really it's nearly impossible to make

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<v Speaker 2>that argument.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like they might not be very social because

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<v Speaker 1>they only grew up in a world where they had

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<v Speaker 1>to fight for themselves constantly. And like, does that mean

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<v Speaker 1>they're autistic? I would say no, you know, I would

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<v Speaker 1>also say no. But even if, like, even if you

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<v Speaker 1>identify these genetic markers, even if you identify that, like, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>among these other beagles, these beagles seem particularly not social,

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<v Speaker 1>Why does that have to be autism? Like, if we

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<v Speaker 1>see a gene mutation that tends to result in fewer

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<v Speaker 1>than average whatever that might mean social interactions, why can't

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<v Speaker 1>we just say there's a gene mutation that tends to

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<v Speaker 1>result in fewer than average whatever that might mean social interactions,

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<v Speaker 1>And like what is there to be gained by calling

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<v Speaker 1>it autism specifically? Right? And again, like, once we call

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<v Speaker 1>it autism, people start assigning the cause of their behavior

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<v Speaker 1>to autism when we already know that the cause and

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<v Speaker 1>this particular case is a genetic mutation. So it's like

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<v Speaker 1>we start treating the label as if that explains things

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<v Speaker 1>when we actually already know the explanation that is utterly

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<v Speaker 1>irrelevant to the label.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>The question we have to ask inside of this is

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<v Speaker 2>how effectively are we ruling out typical species behavior? I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>we're learning about new species across the world. We're discovering

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<v Speaker 2>new species all the time, let alone discovering new behaviors

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<v Speaker 2>and new things with the species that we already know,

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<v Speaker 2>So how well are we ruling out what could be

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<v Speaker 2>described as normal behavioral variation? And I think that we're

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<v Speaker 2>not even attempting to rule these things out and kind

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<v Speaker 2>of taking some leaps to human diagnoses for non human animals.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and we'll take the example of like with dogs.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, if every single dog was like super friendly

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<v Speaker 1>to every single human I'm like, that would be astonishing

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<v Speaker 1>to me. They're just there's too much variability in how

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to experience the world and show up in

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<v Speaker 1>the world and how people are going to treat them

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<v Speaker 1>for them to be that way. It just it couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>ever happen. It just couldn't. And so it's like, how

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<v Speaker 1>are we saying that, like, because it doesn't happen for

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<v Speaker 1>this one dog, that the reason is autism, Like that's right,

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<v Speaker 1>probably not the reason. It's almost certainly not the reason.

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<v Speaker 1>It's definitely not the reason. Okay, So it comes back

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<v Speaker 1>to the point that we have made time and time

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<v Speaker 1>again that I like to make on this on this

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<v Speaker 1>show because I just think asking, like, what is the

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<v Speaker 1>actual sking point of a diagnosis?

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<v Speaker 3>What is the point?

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<v Speaker 1>Like in humans, it tends to be that a diagnosis

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<v Speaker 1>provides access to supports, specifically to people who need those

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<v Speaker 1>supports at best. That tends to be how we use

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<v Speaker 1>them now medically speaking differently, but we're talking about behavior

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<v Speaker 1>psychological things, that's how it's used. There are some people

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<v Speaker 1>who like having that label has them feel more accepting

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<v Speaker 1>of their behaviors, which could potentially be a good thing.

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<v Speaker 1>So there could also be that point there, But what

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<v Speaker 1>does it do for non human animals?

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<v Speaker 3>Right?

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<v Speaker 1>Like, crucially, the diagnosis doesn't even give any direction as

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<v Speaker 1>to what those supports might be. It doesn't give you

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<v Speaker 1>any direction as to what to expect from their behavior.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're going to try and do anything about this,

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<v Speaker 1>you would do it through an assessment, most effectively, a

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<v Speaker 1>behavioral assessment. Like the whole point being here, like that

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<v Speaker 1>diagnosis barely does anything for humans. It does do something

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of the time, but like not a ton

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<v Speaker 1>Like so we said, like if you've met one person

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<v Speaker 1>with autism, you've met one person with autism, right Like,

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<v Speaker 1>if I were to see on intake paperwork that of

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<v Speaker 1>a person I'm going to be working with that they

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<v Speaker 1>have an autism diagnosis, I know exactly nothing about what

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<v Speaker 1>to expect from their behavior because of the variability that

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<v Speaker 1>exists in an existing diagnosis. Like that's how much variability

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<v Speaker 1>there is. Like let alone with an animal who it's

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<v Speaker 1>like they certainly don't feel any differently about their own

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<v Speaker 1>behavior when we say that they're autistic. I know that

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<v Speaker 1>it feels maybe like a stretch, but I guarantee you

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<v Speaker 1>that it is the case, right, us calling them autistic

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<v Speaker 1>does not change how they feel about their own behavior,

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<v Speaker 1>I promise you. And then the other thing is like

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't inform trutment or provide access to supports. So

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<v Speaker 1>what is that's the point?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and it's a fair question. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So now, if you have a behavior that causes the

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<v Speaker 2>behaving organism suffering, a diagnosis does not help you change

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<v Speaker 2>that behavior. The diagnosis is irrelevant in that situation. So

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<v Speaker 2>you identify the behaviors and functions and intervene at the

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<v Speaker 2>level needed. And if you had a dog or cat

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<v Speaker 2>with some challenging behaviors, a diagnosis doesn't help you change

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<v Speaker 2>the behavior. It's not intervention. It's arguably not information for

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<v Speaker 2>a non human animal.

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<v Speaker 1>Except in so far as it might be medical and

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<v Speaker 1>medical situation sometimes there are like interventions that are needed

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<v Speaker 1>because sure, part of their behavior is like they have

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<v Speaker 1>some internal pain, that is like that they tend to

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<v Speaker 1>maybe be a little more aggressive when they're hurting internally.

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<v Speaker 1>That could make sense, So like they're medical diagnoses, but

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<v Speaker 1>again we're talking about psychological behavioral diagnoses, right, And to

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<v Speaker 1>be fair, I think some people might hear this and argue,

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<v Speaker 1>like and they're right there, might be some medications that

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<v Speaker 1>could help in some instances, But a counterpoint I would

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<v Speaker 1>say is that we already really don't actually know how

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of psychiatric medications work in humans. Like this

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<v Speaker 1>might be scared to unders in this, but talk to

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<v Speaker 1>a pharmacist that they will tell you we don't actually

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<v Speaker 1>know why this works or how. We know the effect

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<v Speaker 1>that it has most of the time, but we don't

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<v Speaker 1>actually know why or how. And at best, what would

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<v Speaker 1>happen is we give some drug that has some behavior

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<v Speaker 1>changing effect in a non human animal, but actually have

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<v Speaker 1>no idea what else we're potentially doing. And like, just

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<v Speaker 1>because we can sedate them and calm that down, is

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<v Speaker 1>that all we wanted out of this? Like that's all

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<v Speaker 1>we needed to do, is just like have them be lethargic.

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<v Speaker 1>Like I feel like that's not actually getting after what

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<v Speaker 1>the issue is probably is going on for them. Like

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<v Speaker 1>if it was medical, that certainly is problematic because now

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<v Speaker 1>they're not even responding to a medical emergency that they

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<v Speaker 1>might have. And if it's behavioral, there are better in

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<v Speaker 1>different ways to go about helping provide supports than just

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<v Speaker 1>calling it autistic or ADHD or something else.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, right, Right, so ultimately, can our pets have autism?

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<v Speaker 2>It's possible maybe, but it kind of doesn't really matter,

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<v Speaker 2>especially at this point, because we just don't have any

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<v Speaker 2>information on it and it doesn't need anything, right, So

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<v Speaker 2>I think that the motivation to assign these labels is

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<v Speaker 2>largely born out of a desire to super impose our

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<v Speaker 2>experiences onto our non human counterparts. I mean we do

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<v Speaker 2>this for everything, not just diagnoses. We think our dogs

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<v Speaker 2>are smiling, We think our dogs are we say happy,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, there are beavers to indicate that stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>but like we don't. But we were assigning that because

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<v Speaker 2>it's you know, it's one of those things.

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<v Speaker 3>Where we just like to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah it feels better, Yeah, it feels better, and maybe

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<v Speaker 2>that's like easier to explain, like certain situations.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But for some there is a desire to elevate

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<v Speaker 2>these animal status in our minds to be closer to humans,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a kind thing to do, we could say.

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<v Speaker 2>But for others, I think it is an attempt to

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<v Speaker 2>try to understand the things that we observe when we

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<v Speaker 2>don't otherwise understand them, and when we find comfort in

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<v Speaker 2>applying labels to things as if those labels explain them.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's kind of.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, I don't have better language to describe this, so

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<v Speaker 2>this is sufficient to describe this thing. So I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to use this label to describe this thing because I

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<v Speaker 2>don't have a better way to describe it.

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<v Speaker 1>To me, it's it's as useful as saying it's a

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<v Speaker 1>ghost like. It's as objectively true and as useful, like

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<v Speaker 1>why are they behaving this way? A ghost That's why?

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<v Speaker 3>Ghost like?

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<v Speaker 1>It just doesn't like, what are you gonna do about that?

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<v Speaker 1>Go find a ghostbuster like? It just doesn't It doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>do anything. So anyway, that's what I have to say

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<v Speaker 1>about this. Probably some of you disagree with me, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry kind of, but feel free to tell us your thoughts.

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<v Speaker 1>You can email us directly at info WWDWWD podcast dot

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<v Speaker 1>com or reach us on the social media platforms, and

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<v Speaker 1>I do look forward to hearing from you. I'm always

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<v Speaker 1>open to constructive criticism, but if you just want to

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<v Speaker 1>send hate mail, then I just won't even bother with it.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, don't bother yourself. But otherwise we look forward

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<v Speaker 1>to hearing from you, And if you'd like to support us.

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<v Speaker 1>You can join us on Patreon. It really helps us out.

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<v Speaker 1>I will read your name at the end of our

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<v Speaker 1>full length episodes or some bonus content early episodes, ad

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<v Speaker 1>free episodes, that sort of thing. You can also leave

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<v Speaker 1>us rating and review, like subscribe and to a friend.

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<v Speaker 1>As I mentioned before, all of this stuff really helps

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<v Speaker 1>us and gets us into the algorithms of more people.

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<v Speaker 1>So do that thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you to team of people without whom I could

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<v Speaker 1>not make this episode. Thank you for recording with me today.

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<v Speaker 3>Shane, Hey, thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Anything else that I'm mister you'd like to add before

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<v Speaker 1>we sayah, goodbyes?

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<v Speaker 3>Uh Nope, I don't think so. I think I'm good

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<v Speaker 3>at this one.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, go forth, be skeptical. This is Abraham, this

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<v Speaker 1>is Shane. Why we Do what we Do? Mini is out.

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<v Speaker 3>Bye. You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.

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<v Speaker 2>You can learn more about this and other episodes by

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<v Speaker 2>going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and

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<v Speaker 2>we hope you have an awesome day.