WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.120 Wait, the Lucky land Slots. You can get lucky just 2 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:04.080 about anywhere. 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.799 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:09.759 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 5 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.039 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 6 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:15.720 just these cash prizes add up quick, So I suggest 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:17.719 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 8 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:18.839 start getting lucky. 9 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.559 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 10 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.320 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 11 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.280 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 12 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.039 Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an 13 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:35.399 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 14 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:38.280 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 15 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.039 counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That 16 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:43.560 is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. 17 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:47.000 Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games 18 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:51.159 you can play for free, anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. 19 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:53.719 That's your brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot, so 20 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:57.119 sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck 21 00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:00.000 Casino dot com. Nope, we're not necessary, daid, everyboy lows 22 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:01.200 you're regative at play. 23 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:03.920 Block to Padian. 24 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:16.400 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 25 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:19.519 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:26.879 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 27 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:30.599 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:34.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.760 host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:53.239 Good Eating. Hiring is challenging, but there's one place you 31 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:56.959 can go where hiring is simple, fast and smart, a 32 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:01.239 place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates. That place 33 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:06.480 is ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. Zip Recruiter sends your 34 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.560 job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards, 35 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:13.520 but they don't stop there. With their powerful matching technology, 36 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:16.919 zip Recruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with 37 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:19.879 the right experience, invites them to apply to your job. 38 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:25.120 As applications come in, ZipRecruiter analyzes each one and spotlights 39 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:27.960 the top candidates so you never miss a great match. 40 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.680 ZipRecruiter is so effective that four out of five of 41 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:35.039 the employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate 42 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:38.960 through the site. Within the first day and right now 43 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:43.000 my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive 44 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:49.759 web address ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. That's ZipRecruiter dot com, 45 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:58.240 slash mur der, ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. Zip recruiter 46 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:04.280 the smartest way to Higher Like a real life Hannibal Lecter, 47 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:08.439 the psychopathic murderer from Thomas Harris's Silence of the Lambs, 48 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:14.400 Charles Hatcher was cunning, sadistic, and totally remorseless. He was 49 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:18.439 a man with no conscience. He killed sixteen people, three 50 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:22.199 of them children. Hatcher was also responsible for a different 51 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:25.639 kind of tragedy, the conviction and imprisonment of an innocent 52 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:29.360 man who was mercilessly hounded by the police, the prosecutor 53 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.879 in the community for a brutal murder that Hatcher himself committed. 54 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:37.960 A nomadic doctor Jekylinister Hyde who manipulated the legal system 55 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:41.840 with gruesome skill. Charles Hatcher was the embodiment of evil, 56 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:46.080 the devil's emissary on Earth. His nemesis was the lone 57 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:49.879 fbi man in Saint Joseph, Missouri, who risked his career 58 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.680 to end Hatcher's reign. Of terror. Innocent Blood is the 59 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:56.719 true story of Charles Hatcher and his life of crime. 60 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:01.479 A powerful and blood chilling glimpse into the darkness between 61 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:06.319 sanity and madness. It also chronicles a justice system gone wrong. 62 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:10.439 Throughout his criminal career, Hatcher was able to fool dozens 63 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:14.319 of psychiatrists who repeatedly failed to identify him as a 64 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:18.839 multiple murderer. Hatcher's astonishing skill was not just in his 65 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:22.519 ability to murder an escape imprisonment. He became an expert 66 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:28.879 at manipulating the criminal justice system. Overall, he outwitted police, prosecutors, psychiatrists, 67 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:33.560 and judges in twelve cities and eight states. Terry Gainey 68 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:35.680 first covered this story as a reporter for the Saint 69 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:39.680 Louis Post Dispatch. Later, he spent four years researching the 70 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:43.160 material for this book, interviewing over seventy five people. In 71 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:48.439 reviewing thousands of documents, court transcripts, prison files, police reports, 72 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:52.040 and mental health records, what emerges is the fascinating and 73 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:56.920 horrifying portrait of a mass murderer at large in America. 74 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:00.439 The book that we're featuring this evening is Innocent Blood, 75 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:03.879 a true story of obsession and serial murder with my 76 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:08.519 special guest, journalist and author Terry Gainey. Welcome to the program, 77 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:10.439 and thank you very much for a green this interview. 78 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.319 Terry Gainey, thank you, Dan. 79 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:16.439 I'm happy to be here. 80 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:23.279 Thank you very much. This is one incredible book, I 81 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:26.639 have to say that, incredible and perfect for this. 82 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:29.279 True murder. 83 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.399 As we mentioned, just initially, give us a little bit 84 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:39.000 of your background, why you wanted to be involved in 85 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.399 writing this Innocent Blood, how you were in a position 86 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:43.240 to do that. Tell us a little bit about where 87 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.639 you were and what you were doing that you were 88 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:48.120 in this position to write this book. 89 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:54.480 I was a reporter for the Saint Louis Post Dispatch, 90 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:58.680 and I was covering state government in the capital of 91 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:05.600 Missouri City and Jefferson City is also the place where 92 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:12.040 the Missouri State Penitentiary was located. And I became familiar 93 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:16.720 with this story through the release of a prison inmate 94 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:21.959 from the penitentiary by the name of Melvin Reynolds. Reynolds 95 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:27.519 was an innocent man who was sentenced to life imprisonment 96 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:32.519 for second degree murder of a child in Saint Joseph, Missouri. 97 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:37.000 But it turns out he was innocent and the true 98 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:42.600 killer later admitted that he had committed this child murder. 99 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:47.560 And this is Charles Hatcher, the serial killer who becomes 100 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:52.040 the focus of my book because the murder that he 101 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:56.199 committed in Saint Joseph was not his only murder, and 102 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:00.600 I began researching his life of crime throughout the country. 103 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:08.279 Now, let's talk about the Christian Eric Christian murder that 104 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:13.759 is attributed to as you say, Melvin Reynolds, Let's talk 105 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:17.279 about that crime itself as you do, as you write 106 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:20.279 in a book, May twenty six, nineteen seventy eight. And 107 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:23.639 there's a babysitter named Karen Carter tell us about this. 108 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:31.959 Well. Although Charles Hancher's life of crime began many years earlier, 109 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:37.279 I focused on the disappearance and murder of Eric Christian 110 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:42.759 as a way of beginning the narrative. Dan Eric Christian 111 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:46.560 was a little, blonde haired five year old boy who 112 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:51.079 disappeared at a playground on the shopping mall in Saint 113 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:56.839 Joseph shortly before Memorial Day in nineteen seventy eight. It's 114 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:04.240 a babysitter. Karen Carter was also employed at a major 115 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:07.879 wood products company in Saint jo and she was responsible 116 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:14.160 essentially for watching the boss's son that day, and she 117 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:18.040 had gone into a store to buy an American flag 118 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:21.199 to desproy, and the little boy wanted to play on 119 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:25.759 the slide outside, and while she went into the store, 120 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:29.079 she left him alone for a few minutes, and when 121 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:32.600 she came out of the store, he had disappeared. And 122 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:39.039 this begins a story of a city in the grips 123 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:44.039 of a terrible crime, the death of this little boy 124 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:49.080 in a city of about seventy five thousand in those days, 125 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:53.759 and the family is a well known Saint Joseph family. 126 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:58.960 Many workers were employed at the wood products company that 127 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.840 Eric's father or was in charge of. So for two 128 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:09.080 days they search the area around the city, and finally 129 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:13.840 the second day after he disappeared, they find his body. 130 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:19.559 And it's a little confusing about how he actually died, 131 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:24.879 but it was later determined that he was strangled. And 132 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:34.600 a special task force is empowered to investigate this terrible 133 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.960 murder of this little boy. The city is in Greece 134 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:42.480 and the police are under the gun to solve this 135 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:48.519 terrible crime, but the task force is unable to come 136 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:53.720 up with the perpetrator. In fact, in the force of 137 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:59.159 searching for the person who actually did it, they arrested 138 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:02.440 or took him custody, a janitor by the name of 139 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:06.559 Harry Fox. Some police officers said there's no way Harry 140 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:09.240 Fox could have done this crime because the body was 141 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:12.440 found in a wooded terrain on the hill side that 142 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:15.639 somebody would have to be pretty agile to get to. 143 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:21.679 Harry Fox was an overweight aged janitor who just couldn't 144 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.960 begin to climb the hill where the boy's body was found. 145 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:29.200 But nevertheless, they brought it in for questioning, and during 146 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:35.159 the questioning he went into convulsions and died. And it 147 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.159 was a fine that the police were very aggressive in 148 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:44.200 their tactics and trying to solve this murder, but they 149 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:48.600 couldn't come up with the person who did it. Well. 150 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.080 Several months go by and a new police chief comes in, 151 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:56.200 a fellow by the name of Hayes. Chief Hays is 152 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.440 bound and determined to solve the crime, and the police 153 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:04.759 begin to focus on a gay man, a well known 154 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:08.440 police character, a young man in Saint Joseph by the 155 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:14.039 name of Melvin Reynolds. And when they first brought Melvin 156 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:19.480 in for questioning, he denied killing the boy, but he 157 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:23.039 told interviewer, I'll say I did it if you want 158 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:29.200 me to. He was very his intellectual capacity was diminish. 159 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:32.879 He was a type of person who wanted to please everybody. 160 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:37.480 He had had a troubled background, and this is the 161 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:43.639 person they begin focusing on as the man who had 162 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:50.399 murdered little Eric Christian. You write about a couple of 163 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:54.480 witnesses and also the people that come into play in 164 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:59.679 terms of law enforcement and become major characters. You write 165 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:05.120 about the incredible effort the search, and also the use 166 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:09.519 of hypnotism and the use of truth serum. Again much 167 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.799 different for people reading this today in today's forensic world. 168 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:17.440 I guess in reality, you talked about a person named 169 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:20.480 jeff Davey, and you talked about a Carl Simpson, and 170 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:26.200 you talked about, of course, Detective Agent Holtztegg from the FBI. 171 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:30.919 So tell us a little bit about the two witnesses 172 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:35.240 that I mentioned, Carl Simpson and Jeffrey Davey, and the 173 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:37.679 police interaction with them and what they had to say 174 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:46.360 to police. Early in the investigation, the police had to 175 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:53.080 determine the root that whoever abducted Eric from that shopping 176 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:57.080 mall would have taken to get to the place where 177 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:03.000 his body was finally discovered, and they walked the route 178 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:08.559 and began questioning people who might have seen the perpetrator, 179 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:14.240 the abductor, and the little boy. And they came across 180 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:18.559 a couple of people who were witnesses and saw an 181 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:23.879 elderly man leading a little boy by the hand. They 182 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:29.240 were walking, not running, or he wasn't carrying the little boy. 183 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:32.679 They were just walking. It might have been the scene 184 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:39.200 of a grandfather walking his child, his grandson along the 185 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.759 street and then along some railroad tracks to the spot 186 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:48.279 where Eric's body was finally discovered. And one of the 187 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:52.759 one of the people who saw them was Carl Simpson, 188 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:57.279 who was getting off work. He saw them from his 189 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:01.679 not from his carved from a parking lot where his 190 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:04.840 car was parked. And another fellow by the name of 191 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:10.080 Jeff Davy was doing some excavating. He was digging some 192 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:12.600 dirt for a plumbing job. He was a plumber and 193 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:15.759 he needed some dirt to fill a hole and he 194 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:19.919 was taking it from a cliff side along the railroad tracks, 195 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:24.039 and he saw a man with a little boy. And 196 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:31.120 they believed that if anybody saw the murderer taking Eric Christine, 197 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:36.120 it was probably Jeff Davy, so he gave a description 198 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:43.559 to the police, and they brought in a hypnotist from 199 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:49.559 Kansas to try to elicit more details from Jeff Davie's memory. 200 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.679 And it was one of the more exotic efforts the 201 00:14:53.799 --> 00:15:00.639 police employed to try to solve this mysterious crime. They 202 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:09.960 also used a behavior a behavioral expert from the FBI 203 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:14.480 in Quantico, Virginia, who took all of the facts dan 204 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:21.200 of the case, the time of day, motives, opportunity, and 205 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:25.799 all of the things that might help to determine the 206 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:31.200 type of person who would do this crime, and they 207 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:36.200 developed a behavioral sketch that they gave to the police 208 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:41.320 of Saint Joseph, Missouri to come up with the type 209 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:45.720 of person they should be looking for. Probably somebody working 210 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:51.919 in menial jobs, probably somebody who was not very well educated. 211 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:57.200 The fact that the person had to climb an embankment 212 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:02.639 where the body was discovered would indicate that he was 213 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:09.320 somewhat physically, fairly adequate and rather muscular to get up 214 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:14.279 this embankment where the body was found. And they also 215 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.320 said that given the fact that this was a child abduction, 216 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:24.519 there might be cases of similar abductions of children being 217 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:29.320 taken away for sexual purposes, and that they should be 218 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:33.879 looking for somebody a man who has been convicted or 219 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:39.320 accused of similar crimes in nearby areas. So they came 220 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:45.639 up with this sketch of a potential potential abductor, a 221 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:51.399 potential perpetrator of the crime. And Joe Holpslag was the 222 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.960 FBI agent on the scene who tried to help the 223 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.840 local police in figuring out this crime. He was in 224 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.679 an advisory capacity because it wasn't considered to be a 225 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:09.079 federal crime at the time, and he was among the 226 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:13.240 members of the task force who were trying to discover 227 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:20.640 who had had murdered Eric Christian. You write about this 228 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:26.759 confession despite reservations from some people when you talked about 229 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:30.559 police Chief Hayes, and then the prosecutor in scope wasn't 230 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:37.279 initially so convinced. Tell us what happens despite some inaccuracies, inconsistencies, 231 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:42.720 and lack of detail sometimes in Melvin Reynolds's confession. What 232 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:50.359 happens with that confession, Well, Melvin is questioned eleven times 233 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:57.039 by police officers who continually come to his house, pick 234 00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:59.839 him up and bring him down to the police station, 235 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.480 and then interrogate him, and in one case they use 236 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:07.440 a zodium amatol, a truth serum, in an attempt to 237 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:12.519 discover what is in his head. And the thing about 238 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:18.279 Melvin was that he wasn't as sharp as those investigators 239 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:24.720 questioning him, and he gave them some stories about where 240 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:28.480 he was that turned out not to be true. Melvin 241 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:31.480 probably didn't know where he was on the day Eric 242 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:36.240 Christian was abducted and murdered, and as a result, the 243 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:40.400 police thought he might be if he's giving them wise 244 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:43.880 in their questioning, he might be the person who did it, 245 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:48.119 so they kept coming back to him continually. But people 246 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:53.319 who knew Melvin, including a police officer who had gone 247 00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:57.319 to school with one of Melbourne's sisters, said he's not 248 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.079 the type of character who would have done it. You 249 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:05.000 would say anything to any police officer trying to please them, 250 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.480 just trying to get out of the questioning session. And 251 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:15.119 a woman who was aware of wealth of where Malcolm 252 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:20.160 was on the day Eric was abducted said she saw 253 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:23.160 him not far from her house and there was no 254 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:27.000 way that he could have been in two places at once. 255 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.759 So there were doubts among people in the community that 256 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:36.880 Melvine was good for this crime. But eventually, under police questioning, 257 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:41.559 he signed statements and gave details of the crime. The 258 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:46.680 convinced officers that he was the person who was behind it. 259 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:52.799 The prosecutor, as you mentioned, Mike Inscow, was at first doubtful, 260 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:57.759 but the pressure was on to solve this crime. The 261 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.160 police were under the gun to come up whoever did it, 262 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:06.640 and Melvin was caught in this trap that eventually found 263 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:13.480 himself signing a statement, finding a statement that he had 264 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.119 killed the little boy in the commission of a sexual act. 265 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:25.119 So he's a victim of aggressive police tactics and a 266 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:28.440 town that wants to solve a crime and somebody asked 267 00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:31.359 to be good for it, and Melton turned out to 268 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:36.480 be the patsy that police he is committing the crime. 269 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:43.960 You introduce a character, a public defender that I was 270 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.839 surprising was very, very experienced and is a major character 271 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:56.200 in this story. His name is Doms, and he wanted 272 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.680 to represent him and plead not guilty by reason of 273 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:06.160 mental disease. Tell us a little bit about this public defender, 274 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:10.640 Doms and his concern for Melvin Reynolds and what did 275 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:11.400 he do as a result. 276 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:19.559 Well, Doms was the local public defender and he was 277 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:27.319 overworked and underpaid, but he was interested in defending Melvin 278 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:33.720 to the greatest extent possible. Dick Doms was formerly a 279 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:39.359 judge in the Buchanan County court system that he had 280 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:42.640 been voted out of office and he was looking for 281 00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:46.680 some kind of way to keep a job and the 282 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.599 the court system of Buchanan County in Saint jo And 283 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:55.599 so he became the public defender. And he knew the 284 00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:00.079 ins and outs of law enforcement in the community. He 285 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.839 was aware of how things took place, and he was 286 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.799 convinced that Melvin was innocent. And he had done some 287 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:12.880 preliminary work on the case and had identified witnesses who 288 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:16.359 would have said Malvin does not match the description of 289 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.200 a person seen leading the little boy away from them. 290 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.480 With lucky lancelots. You can get lucky just about anywhere. 291 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:27.720 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 292 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:28.559 the bride and groom? 293 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:30.640 Sorry, sorry, we're here. 294 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:32.799 We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost 295 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:33.359 track of time. 296 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:36.880 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 297 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:40.039 quicker than he guess registered in that case, I pronounce 298 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:41.480 you lucky k. 299 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:45.000 For free lucky landslots dot com. Daily bonuses are waiting, 300 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:47.880 no purchase necessary board We're prohibited by lockey team plus 301 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:50.200 terms and conditions of flag see website for details. 302 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:55.559 All people said Simpson and Jeff Davies said, he was 303 00:22:55.640 --> 00:23:01.400 an older man, heavy set, thick shoulders. That's the person 304 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:04.880 that police should have been looking for. Melvin was skinny, 305 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:12.359 he was underweight. He was kind of a meet, not aggressive, 306 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:17.119 assertive kind of person. And doms knew that he had 307 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:20.480 been set up for this time. But the family, the 308 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:24.759 family of Melvin Reynolds, believed he needed a high powered 309 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:30.160 defense attorney to stand up for Melbourne in court in 310 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.319 Buchanan County, so they hired a well known defense lawyer 311 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:38.119 from Kansas City. Saint Joe, Missouri is about an hour's 312 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:41.880 drive from Kansas City, and they hired a fellow by 313 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:45.000 the name of Lee Nation who was a criminal defense 314 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:50.920 lawyer in Kansas City. And Nation came in to represent Melbourne. 315 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:54.880 And it probably would have been better if they would 316 00:23:54.920 --> 00:24:00.720 have stuck with doms because doms knew the community. As 317 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.880 I said, he knew the background of the police, he 318 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:08.640 knew what it had transpired in the crime. And Nation 319 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:13.559 came in as an outsider and didn't have the same 320 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:19.799 skills that Doms did in representing the defendant before a 321 00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:27.599 jury in Buchanan County, and with the trial really focused 322 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:33.400 on the issue of Melvin's confession. Melvin had told police 323 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:35.960 that he had taken the boy from the ball, he 324 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:40.720 had done these things to him, and he did it. 325 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.519 It was an accidental death and the way it went down. 326 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:52.000 And Nation was hoping to keep those statements that Melvin 327 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:58.039 made out of the court record and attempted to object 328 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:04.440 it during the trial that Melvin was giving statements that 329 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:08.759 the police had led him to come to certain conclusions. 330 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.319 But TATEE that they played for the jury was the 331 00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:16.000 third tape that had been made in the series of interviews, 332 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:20.440 in a session that had gone eleven hours. One of 333 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:24.480 the questioning sessions. It was a marathon session that by 334 00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:28.200 the end of which Melvin was making statements on the 335 00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:31.440 tape that the police had sort of led him to 336 00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:35.960 say after having questioned him about the same facts in 337 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:41.000 earlier interviews. So these were the statements that Nation hoped 338 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.400 to keep out of the court trial. He was unsuccessful, 339 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:47.920 and it was based on what was on those tapes 340 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.799 that the jury convicted Melvine of murdering the Christian boy 341 00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:59.119 Nation did not call any of the witnesses who had 342 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:05.079 seen somebody of a different description leading Eric from the ball, 343 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:11.160 and as a result, Melvin was convicted and the sentenced 344 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:14.720 to life in prison. And the Missouri State Penitentiary. 345 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:20.640 You talk about and bring the reader right into the 346 00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:25.119 life of Melvin Reynolds. As a result, he is told 347 00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:28.319 that he is likely, because of the charges that he's 348 00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.640 been convicted on, that he is in risk good of 349 00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:36.359 being killed. But despite this he goes into the general population. 350 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:46.240 What happens in general population with Melvin Reynolds, Well, Melvin 351 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:51.839 was incarcerated in the meanest lock up in the state 352 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:56.359 of Missouri, maybe one of the toughest places of. 353 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:01.680 Prisons in the country, the Missouri Date p Aitentiary. It's 354 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:05.599 closed now, but in those days it was a terrible 355 00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:12.640 place of the conditions were horrible, the inmates were tough, 356 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:18.240 and the guards and correctional officers in charge of the 357 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:24.599 place were under staff, and Melvin was subject to brutal 358 00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:32.880 sexual attacks. He was pushed off garbage truck he was 359 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:35.319 working on the garbage detail and he was hanging on 360 00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:39.400 the side, and he constantly had to deny that he 361 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:43.079 had killed this little boy. But in the prison system, 362 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:49.000 somebody who is convicted of doing the crimes that Melvin 363 00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:52.960 did or was accused of doing, would be the lowest 364 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:57.680 on the ladder, the lowest rung of the prison system, 365 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:02.160 and he was always subject to brutality, even though he 366 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:05.279 was always denying that he had committed these crimes. And 367 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:08.359 he was told that, you know, if you go into 368 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:13.319 the Missouri State Penitentiary with a record like yours killing 369 00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:16.720 a little boy, it's likely that somebody's going to take 370 00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.920 revenge on you and you're going to be killed yourself. 371 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:24.759 And that's what Melvin feared when he was in the 372 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:29.680 Missouri State Penitentiary, and oftentimes he came close to being 373 00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:34.319 killed during these fits and gang rates and things that 374 00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:38.720 took place. And it is in that section of the 375 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:44.279 book that I switch to the character of Charles Catcher, 376 00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:48.799 because he had been in that very same penitentiary many 377 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:54.039 years earlier, and he had been the perpetrator of killing 378 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:59.519 another young man in the institution, in the Missouri State Penitentiary. 379 00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:07.839 Right now, you talk about that killing to compare what 380 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:12.920 Melvioyn Reynolds was fearing and what could have been his fate. 381 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.960 Fortunately wasn't. Then you introduced Charles L. Hatcher and his 382 00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:24.559 criminal career stealing cars the violence tell us a little 383 00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:28.440 bit as you write about his background growing up and 384 00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:30.480 how he came to this life of crime. 385 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:37.559 That Charles Thatcher had been born in nineteen twenty nine, 386 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:42.759 and he grew up in an impoverished part of Missouri 387 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:48.400 to a very poor family that had several other boys. 388 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.839 He was the youngest. His father had spent time in 389 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:59.680 the penitentiary on various charges assault feeling. He had an 390 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.079 un people who had also been in the Missouri State Penitentiary. 391 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:09.839 His mother was an alcoholic, and Charles Hatcher just didn't 392 00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:15.119 have an upbringing that could lead him to a life 393 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:19.880 of prosperity. He was poorly educated, even though he was 394 00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:24.519 a smart little boy. According to his grade school teachers. 395 00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:29.559 The people who remembered the Hatchers from going to school 396 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:33.240 in those little communities north of Saint Joe. We called 397 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:38.200 about how poor they were and how their shoes. Sometimes 398 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:41.160 they didn't have shoes. And of course he was born 399 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:44.240 at the time of the depression. 400 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:44.079 And. 401 00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:52.359