WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:02.279 I cut a lot of hair when I was in 2 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:04.519 high school. I mean I cut enough hair that I 3 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:07.440 purchased two motorcycles with my hair cutting money. 4 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:11.599 This is John Dodd. John grew up in Gilmer, Texas, 5 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:14.560 and he's not lying when he says he cut a 6 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:16.640 lot of hair back when he was in high school. 7 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:19.440 I used to cut a lot of the boy's hair 8 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:21.679 and even some of the girls hair. I used to 9 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:23.359 charge three dollars a haircut. 10 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:26.679 On the night that Kelly Wilson vanished from Gilmer, Texas, 11 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:29.600 guess what John was doing. Yeah, he was cutting hair. 12 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.759 Two of John's friends came by and their names were 13 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:34.640 Chris Denton and Marvin Pritchett. 14 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.000 It was dark by then, of course, it was January 15 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:40.679 the fifth, and so you know, it was getting dark, 16 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:44.960 probably about five o'clock in East Texas, and Marvin and 17 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.000 Chris had come over. 18 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:50.479 Chris, you probably remember, Chris Denton was one of the 19 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:54.439 first suspects in Kelly's case. Marvin is another name we 20 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:57.039 talked about earlier in the podcast, and I'll tell you 21 00:00:57.079 --> 00:00:59.560 more about him in a little bit now. 22 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:02.399 I can't tell you one hundred percent if I cut 23 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:05.319 Chris's hair that night, or Marvin's hair. But I know 24 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:07.400 for a fact they were at the house. They were 25 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:09.719 waiting for me because we were gonna go to Gilmer 26 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:12.799 and just grab some chicken or something like that. I 27 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:16.959 am guessing that it's gonna be sometime around seven, eight 28 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:21.000 o'clock or so. I got finished cutting hair and we 29 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:24.079 all went out and we got into Marvin's truck and 30 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:26.760 Marvin was sitting in the driver's seat, Chris was in 31 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:30.120 the middle, and I was in the passenger seat. And 32 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.640 before we pulled out of the driveway, Yeah, I heard 33 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:35.719 a voice tell my mind and said get out of 34 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:38.560 the car. And I told him. I said, hey, man, 35 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:42.400 you know what, I don't think I'm going tonight. And 36 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:45.159 Marvin and Chris looked at me and they said why not, John, 37 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:49.120 And I said, you know, I got homework tod And 38 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.239 they looked at me, and I looked at them and 39 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:54.920 we all laughed. And the reason why that was funny 40 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:59.560 is because Wes, I never did homework. Like my whole 41 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:04.120 high schoo career, I'd never did homework, and so they 42 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.959 knew that I wasn't going to go do homework. But 43 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:11.439 I reaffirmed and I just said, look, yeah, I'm getting out. 44 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:16.120 So John was a senior the same year as Kelly 45 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:19.840 Day Wilson, and on the night she disappeared January fifth, 46 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:23.319 nineteen ninety two, he was supposed to be in that truck. 47 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:27.919 He got out instead. And that decision to climb out 48 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.120 over homework he had no intention of doing, is the 49 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:34.919 only reason John Dodd wasn't writing around Gilmert with his 50 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.240 two friends on the last night. Anybody can account for 51 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:42.000 Kelly because of that feeling he had. John escaped the 52 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:47.199 allegations that would hound his friends, especially Chris, for years. 53 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:50.199 But John was about to get drawn into the case anyway, 54 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:52.919 and you might be surprised to learn how that happened. 55 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:57.240 Now here's where I'm telling you independent from any other 56 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:00.360 person on this planet, because I witnessed it with my 57 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:01.360 own eyes. 58 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:07.039 From Free Range Productions in association with Imperative Entertainment. I'm 59 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:21.520 West Ferguson, and this is Deviltown, chapter thirteen, the tape. 60 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:24.080 All right, let me back up and tell you more 61 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.039 about John Dodd. Most of the people who have reached 62 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:29.879 out to me about Kelly are you know, regular folks. 63 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.240 They've got a rumor, or a memory or a theory 64 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:36.439 they heard from a cousin, and I take it all seriously, 65 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.560 but I also take it all with a grain of salt, 66 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:42.879 because you know, that's the job. John is a little 67 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:45.879 different because John does this for a living. He's a 68 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:49.599 federal police chief, and he spent his entire career working 69 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:53.080 major crimes, homicides, all the serious stuff. 70 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.000 Just f y. I'm a child friendsic interviewer. I've been 71 00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:00.439 doing it since two thousand and nine. And listen, I 72 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:02.400 am an evidence based person. 73 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:03.159 I have to be. 74 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:06.080 I don't have the luxury of just believing people because 75 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:10.159 they kail me something right. My job requires us to 76 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:13.039 provide evidence. And one of the reasons why in the 77 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.560 past I haven't ever got involved is because some of 78 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:18.839 the cases that I've worked in my career. I'm a 79 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:22.879 federal investigator, and I mean, I've spent my career doing 80 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:23.800 this kind of stuff. 81 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:27.199 So this is kind of John's whole thing. He's a 82 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.439 guy whose entire career is built on not getting carried away, 83 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:34.399 on not deciding what happened first, and then going out 84 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:38.079 looking for proof. He'll actually tell you more than once 85 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:40.480 that he's careful about what he'll swear to and what 86 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:43.680 he won't. And that's part of why for thirty years, 87 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:47.600 John mostly stayed out of this. He had a demanding job, 88 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:51.079 a life out west, and a healthy suspicion of the 89 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:54.959 kind of storytelling that had already turned Kelly's case into 90 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.959 an absolute circus. But John is not a stranger to 91 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:03.560 this story and close his father is John Melvin Dodd. 92 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.879 If you've been with me for a while, you know Melvin. 93 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.000 He's one of the founders of the Justice for Kelly 94 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:13.319 Wilson Committee, the group of folks in Gilmert who never 95 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:17.560 stopped pushing, never stopped believing there was more to this 96 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.720 than the official version. I interviewed Melvin at least once, 97 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:23.319 maybe a couple of times. 98 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:26.120 You're gonna write a book about this or what? 99 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:28.800 No, sir, I'm making a podcast series. 100 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.639 Okay, okay, I'm gonna have to after a phone here, 101 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:38.600 I take me long? Hello, What. 102 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.319 Didn't So? 103 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:49.759 John is extremely familiar with all of this, and even 104 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.439 more than that, he grew up with the people who 105 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:55.240 ended up at the center of it. He told me 106 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.680 he had three best friends in high school, and one 107 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:01.920 of them was Christentton. Now, Christen has often been described 108 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.480 as Kelly's boyfriend. The people that know them say that's 109 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:09.399 not true. They just had, like, you know, a hookup basically. 110 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:14.120 But for thirty years, Christenton was law enforcement's favorite suspect 111 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:18.000 in her disappearance. Chris died back in two thousand and four, 112 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.399 and we spent a good chunk of an earlier episode 113 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.920 or two on him, and just so we're clear, no 114 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:27.600 one ever proved that he actually had anything to do 115 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.920 with her disappearance. But we do know that Chris was 116 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.160 in that truck that night cruising around Gilmer when Kelly disappeared, 117 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:38.480 and so was Marvin Pritchett, another kid from that same circle. 118 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:42.240 These guys were John's friends, which brings me back to 119 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:46.120 his Grandma's driveway because when John tells that story about 120 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.319 the voice saying get out of the car, my first instinct, honestly, 121 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.680 is probably the same as yours. It's a good story, 122 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:56.920 but it's just a feeling a hunch. How much can 123 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.600 you really hang on that? And then John told me 124 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.959 why he listened to that voice. In nineteen eighty eight, 125 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.680 John and Chris's older brother, Allan were in a horrible 126 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:07.199 car wreck. 127 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:11.279 Alan and I had just dropped his girlfriend off in 128 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.600 Longview at her house, and we were driving back in 129 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:18.759 his little low nineteen eighty something Ford Escort, little two door, 130 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:21.920 and I remember I was in the back seat after 131 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:24.439 because we were wasted, and I'm talking about I'm laying 132 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.759 across the back seat and so I'm curled up lane 133 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:31.639 there and then her boye tell me, he said, get up, 134 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:33.920 get the front seat. And I woke up and I 135 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:36.480 saw Alan. He was on the front porch, kissing the land. 136 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.519 And I crawled over and got in the passenger seat, 137 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:42.800 and I laid my chair all the way back and 138 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.439 I went right back to sleep. And we're driving from 139 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.639 Longview back to Gimberg. And there was two ways to 140 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.000 get to my house. One way you could turn left 141 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:55.120 and you could go by the old Dean Lake and 142 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.759 go to my house that way. The other way was 143 00:07:57.800 --> 00:07:59.759 you had to go in through town. Well, when we 144 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.680 pulled up, I woke up. The reason why I'm telling 145 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.319 you this, though, West, is because you remember certain things. 146 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.279 And this is why I remember this very vividly, that 147 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:10.920 little voice. This is probably the first time that I 148 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:14.800 recall every hearing a voice to somebody or something talking 149 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:17.680 to me into my mind. And we pulled up to 150 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:20.279 two seventy one from three hundred, and a voice tells me. 151 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.560 It says, turn left, and I said, hey, Alan, wyon't 152 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:24.240 we turn left? And you look at me, You're like, 153 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:26.519 what're for? And I was like, uh, never mind, now 154 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:29.120 let's just go, you know whichever. And I fell back 155 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.959 to sleep and we got hit by another car going 156 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.919 sixty miles an hour, and I got ejected from the vehicle. Okay, 157 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:38.679 I would wear in my seat belt and I broke 158 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.799 my left side of my face. I had reconstructed surgery 159 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.879 on my face. I got screwed up and glass all 160 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.320 over my body, my head, my back, you know. I mean, 161 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:53.000 it screwed me up pretty good. And so I remember 162 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:56.919 I told them. I said, man, I heard a voice 163 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:00.679 tell me to get up, get in the front seat, 164 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.279 and then to turn left instead of turning right. And 165 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.639 I didn't listen to it. I said, I listened to it, 166 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:10.080 but I didn't convince Allan, you know. And I said, 167 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:12.000 I'll never do that again. If I ever hear that 168 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.320 voice in my head telling me to do something, I'm 169 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.159 gonna do it. I'm gonna listen. Well here it was 170 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:21.320 years later, this time, I'm a senior anywhere the fifth, 171 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.240 I go hop in the car. All we're doing is 172 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:25.120 we're going to town. We're going to JRS at that 173 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:28.320 gas station. You know. I was just probably gonna go 174 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.600 eat some chicken and eat some potatoes, you know. And 175 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.000 the next thing, you know, that same voice came to 176 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:38.000 me and said get out, and I was like, oh snap, 177 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:40.639 I remember that. Now. 178 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:42.639 I'm not here to tell you what that voice was. 179 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.240 John's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of 180 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.679 Latter day Saints, and to him, this is a spiritual thing. 181 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.360 So you could believe that or not believe it. That's 182 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:54.960 totally up to you. What I can tell you is 183 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:57.799 that it's not something John made up for a podcast. 184 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:00.360 His dad told me a version of this the same 185 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.840 story several years ago before John and I had ever spoken. 186 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:05.879 Is back in episode ten. 187 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.799 And John said he just got a strong impression don't go. 188 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.639 So you told him, James of mine, I'm not going. 189 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:18.080 So they stopped me got up and he's the only 190 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:22.159 reason my son, John was not a Ben Gilmer with BAM. 191 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:27.039 Then I think Kelly Wilson disappeared, So that's John. 192 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.120 But none of that, the voice, the driveway, the wreck, 193 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.279 none of that is why John finally picked up the 194 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:36.679 phone and called me after thirty years. He called me 195 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:39.360 because of something, he says that he saw with his 196 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:42.840 own eyes, something on a piece of evidence that's been 197 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:45.720 sitting at the center of this case since the very beginning. 198 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:48.840 After the break, John gets his hands on the bank 199 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:53.360 video and he takes it somewhere. No other investigator ever. 200 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:58.679 Did as plain as day as I'm looking at the 201 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:02.919 sun right now. In Yeah, James Brown was the one 202 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:05.120 who was in that vein. 203 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:18.639 All right, So to understand what John says he saw. 204 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.039 I just want to quickly remind you about the bank 205 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:23.879 video because we talked about it all the way back 206 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:27.639 in episode two. So here's the short version. The night 207 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:30.600 that Kelly disappeared, part of her job at that video 208 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:33.120 store was to take the day's cash to the bank 209 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:35.759 just a couple blocks away and drop it in the 210 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.080 night deposit box. And there was a surveillance camera at 211 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.039 the bank and it captured a few vehicles coming through 212 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:44.279 around the time that Kelly would have made the drop. 213 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:47.559 The problem was that back in nineteen ninety two, that 214 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:52.039 footage was well, it was terrible, grainy, dark, low quality. 215 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.279 Sergeant James Brown, the Gilmour police officer who ran the 216 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:59.440 search for Kelly, told the media that the video showed 217 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:03.519 Kelly make that deposit, even though from everything we've been 218 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:07.200 able to tell, the camera didn't really show that clearly 219 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:10.360 at all. And here's a refresher on James yorke Brown. 220 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.480 Two years after a Kelly vanished, Brown himself got arrested 221 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.879 and was charged as part of that alleged satanic cult, 222 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:21.360 along with the Kerr family and several others. And then 223 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:23.960 the Texas Attorney General's Office came in. They took the 224 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.159 case apart, found no real evidence behind any of those charges, 225 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:32.320 and dropped every charge. Brown has always maintained he had 226 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.480 nothing to do with Kelly's disappearance and he was never 227 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:39.279 convicted of anything. As far as the law is concerned, 228 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:43.000 and as far as I'm concerned, James yorke Brown is 229 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.879 an innocent man. And here's James himself from an interview 230 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.679 we played earlier in the season where he's talking about 231 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:52.720 those first days searching for Kelly. This is back from 232 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:53.399 episode two. 233 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:56.759 There's a lot of interviews that were done with the 234 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:00.399 last people that had contact, and from there you start 235 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:03.240 nearing your focus and of course I was a loan 236 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:05.080 in the investigation. 237 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:07.440 For a long time in this story, that's who James 238 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.080 Brown was the officer running the case. So I want 239 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:13.600 to be crystal clear before I tell you this next part, 240 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:17.120 because this next part is John Dodd looking at that 241 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:21.200 same grainy video and telling me he sees that same 242 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:25.360 man somewhere he was never supposed to be. And how 243 00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:28.039 did John, this high school kid at the time, or 244 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:30.039 maybe fresh out of high school, end up with this 245 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.000 bank tape at all? He says, it came through the 246 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:37.200 back door. Kelly's father had hired a private investigator down 247 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:40.759 in Louisiana, and that PI somehow got hold of a 248 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:44.080 copy of the surveillance video, and he's the one who 249 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:47.200 handed his material over to the Justice for Kelly Folks, 250 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:50.200 and a copy of the bank video made its way 251 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:50.639 to John. 252 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:54.759 I take that copy over to my cousin, Jeff Dodds. 253 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.080 Jeff had gotten his degree at brig Up Young University, 254 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.399 and it has something to do with graphic design, and 255 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.799 he had a brand new, state of the art computer. 256 00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:10.159 We took and I say we, myself, Sam Robinson Denny 257 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:14.080 Pilcher went over at Jeff's house with this video We 258 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:18.240 had Jeff analyze this on this computer and he blew 259 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:20.399 it up. He was able to remove some of the 260 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.039 static and stuff off of this and he blew up 261 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.440 this video and the still shots taken from the surveillance video. 262 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:33.039 So picture this. It's the mid nineties. Four young guys 263 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:37.159 crowded around a computer in somebody's house watching a blurry 264 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.840 frame of video get bigger and clearer line by line, 265 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:44.080 and John says, what came into focus is the thing 266 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:46.639 he's been carrying around for thirty years. 267 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:50.360 Now here's where I'm telling you that I know of 268 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.200 myself independent from any other person on this planet, independent 269 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.919 from Melvin Dodd, independent of any other person, because I 270 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:03.200 witnessed it with my own eyes. We blew those videos up, 271 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.279 those steal shots up, those frames up, and as plain 272 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.840 as day as I'm looking at the sun right now 273 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:16.200 in the sky. James Brown was the one who was 274 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.000 in that van. There was another person who was sitting 275 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.679 in the passenger seat who I could not identify because 276 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:27.879 you couldn't see his face. But Geneva Kerr was in 277 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:28.519 the back. 278 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:33.080 Geneva Kerr, the woman the state once accused of being 279 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.200 at the head of that satanic cult, the one who 280 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.480 charges like Brown's got dropped for lack of evidence. John 281 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.360 says he saw her and James York Brown in a 282 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.879 van at the bank the night Kelly disappeared, not making 283 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.279 a deposit like Kelly was supposed to do. John says 284 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.919 the van pulled up first around eight point fifteen, and 285 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.519 the driver leaned out and dropped an envelope in the 286 00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:00.440 night deposit. Now here's something else important. John's own father, Melvin, 287 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:04.240 has told this video story publicly for years, but when 288 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:07.159 John describes it, he actually corrects his dad on the details. 289 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:09.840 I had a talk with my dad. I said, Dad, 290 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:11.879 James never got out of the car. Well, he most 291 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:16.399 certainly did, said Dad, James never got out of that vehicle. 292 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:19.720 He leaned out, That's why we could see him. And 293 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:21.759 he never got out. And I said, Dad, he wasn't 294 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:23.080 wearing the police unit for him either. 295 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:24.440 He was wearing a jacket. 296 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.720 Now Dad was inaccurate when he said that you could 297 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:31.399 see her through the window. Through the glass, No, James 298 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:35.759 Brown had the window of that dark colored van rode down, 299 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:41.159 he leaned out. Geneva was sitting directly behind him in 300 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:44.279 the back seat, and she leaned up and stuck her 301 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.320 face in between the seat and the door jam, and 302 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:51.720 she is looking directly at whatever James is doing, but 303 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.200 her face is as plain as day in the camera. 304 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:58.679 Melvin has been telling this story one way. But John, 305 00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.919 the trained investigator, the guy who was actually in the 306 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.039 room when they enhanced the footage, is gently telling his 307 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.240 own father he got the details a little wrong. Brown 308 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.440 leaned out, He didn't get out. A jacket, not a uniform. 309 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.519 Geneva's face at the doorframe, not against the. 310 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:20.680 Glass plane as day. I saw this, Jeff Dodd saw it, 311 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.680 Denny saw it, Sam saw it. 312 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:25.440 Now I have to be honest with you about what 313 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:29.400 this is and what this isn't. This is just John's account, 314 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:32.960 his memory, and his read on a piece of grainy 315 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.920 video from thirty years ago. No investigator, no prosecutor, no 316 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:41.759 jury has ever confirmed what John says he saw. James 317 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:45.559 Brown was cleared, Geneva Kerr was cleared. And I'm not 318 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:47.559 gonna sit here and tell you that John is right. 319 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.720 But I also can't quite let go of the question 320 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.359 John keeps coming back to, because whatever you make of 321 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:57.440 the voice in the driveway, John is not some guy 322 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:01.039 with a wild theory he's a professional, and he has 323 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:02.680 one question that really bugs me. 324 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.279 Here's what's so disturbing to me. How come a twenty 325 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:09.079 four twenty five year old, you know, if I was 326 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:11.440 that age but somewhere between twenty three and twenty five 327 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:15.480 years of age. How come I can take a video 328 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:22.119 and go make an absolute, definitive identification on who the 329 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.920 driver was? And how come that was never done by 330 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.680 the investigative parties. How Come that's never been done by 331 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:28.240 the FBI. 332 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.759 How Come nobody with a badge and a budget ever 333 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.960 did what four kids did around a computer one afternoon. 334 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:37.680 I don't have a great answer for that, and John 335 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:40.319 doesn't either. But he'll be the first to tell you 336 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:43.039 that his answer, even if he's one hundred percent right 337 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:46.799 about what he saw, doesn't actually prove anything on his own. 338 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.119 After the break, the catch the one thing John's entire 339 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:53.759 theory depends on, and it leads me to a name 340 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.319 I had never heard before. 341 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:58.759 It's not John Dodd telling you what I saw, because Wes, 342 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.480 you haven't seen it. You're not convinced, right. 343 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:14.839 So here's where John, to his credit, turns this whole 344 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.039 thing on himself, because he knows what I was thinking 345 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.039 he knows that a guy saying I saw James York 346 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.359 Brown on a tape thirty years ago is not the 347 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.359 same as proof. Far from it. 348 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:30.680 Here's the thing, though, I'm telling you, as an experienced investigator, 349 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:35.079 that if you were ever to get your hands and 350 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:40.200 to solve anything, your key is the video. It's not 351 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:42.640 John Dodd telling you what I saw because Wes, you 352 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.160 haven't seen it. You're not convinced. Right. I can get 353 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:48.119 up in front of a damn jury all day long 354 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:51.319 and rant and rave and tell you and cry and 355 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:54.000 everything else and say, oh my god, it was James, 356 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:58.279 you know. But until the jury sees that video to 357 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.960 confirm that that individual is in fact without I mean 358 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:07.119 beyond a reasonable doubt, James, it's irrelevant. 359 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:10.519 I really respect that a lot of people who come 360 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:13.279 to me with a theory want me to just believe them. 361 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.759 John wants me to go check, and there's one particular 362 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:19.400 thing he wants me to check, because it's the piece 363 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.599 his whole theory rests on. Remember, the official story was 364 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.480 that the car at the bank was Kelly's making that deposit. 365 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:30.240 John says, no one of those vehicles that came through 366 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.720 at eight thirty one PM. Was a white Ford Mustang 367 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.039 and it didn't go to the deposit box. It pulled 368 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.400 up to the ATM, and John says he knows exactly 369 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.799 whose mustang that was. It belonged to a classmate of 370 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:46.200 his and Kelly's, a girl named Stacy. 371 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.640 James Brown insisted in his case that that was Kelly 372 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.680 Wilson who drove her Dodge through there and made the 373 00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:58.359 not deposit. But that's inaccurate. That was Stacy in her 374 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:02.519 white Ford Mustang and her boyfriend, and she testified to 375 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:05.240 that to the grand jury. That wasn't Kelly, that that 376 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:05.640 was her. 377 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:08.839 Okay, Now hang on, because this is a big deal. 378 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.480 John's whole case comes down to this. If the car 379 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.799 at the bank wasn't Kelly, then the official timeline falls 380 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.559 apart and the door opens to everything else John is saying. 381 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:23.960 And it's proof that it wasn't Kelly, would be Stacy. 382 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.880 John says. Stacy stood up in front of a grand 383 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:29.880 jury and swore it was her at the bank, not Kelly. 384 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:32.039 He says he saw her there. 385 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:35.359 I got called in front of the grand jury. Okay, 386 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.000 I remember seeing Stacy there at the grand jury. 387 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:42.119 John says that even years later, He and another Justice 388 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.720 for Kelly member named Glenn Leech tracked down Stacy in 389 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.160 Houston and interviewed her, and she said the same thing again. 390 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:55.240 That is a very specific, very checkable claim. And here's 391 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.000 a surprising part. Across everybody I talked to, I had 392 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.759 never once heard the named Stacy. John could not believe that. 393 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:05.759 I can't believe that this is the first time you've 394 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.319 ever heard the name of Stacy. So this is insane 395 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:08.519 to me. 396 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:12.880 So I did what John asked. I went and found her. Actually, 397 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.880 Jennifer Dean, a friend of Kelly's that you've heard from 398 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:18.559 many times throughout the show, helped put us in touch. 399 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.359 And I want to be straight with you, Stacey was 400 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:23.640 a little nervous about being on the show at all. 401 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.240