Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them. Geesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening.
Speaker 3: In the tranquil towns of New England during the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 3: a sinister mystery unfolded when several boys vanished without a
Speaker 3: trace and the community's piece was shattered. With law enforcement
Speaker 3: stymied in its search for answers. Whispers of a possible
Speaker 3: serial killer surfaced, especially after one boy's body was found
Speaker 3: years after his disappearance, but what happened to the others
Speaker 3: remained a heart wrenching puzzle. In twenty thirteen, author David
Speaker 3: mc grath, a former host on the Law Enforcement Today
Speaker 3: Network and an investigator with a relentless drive for justice,
Speaker 3: watched the documentary about the cold case investigation regarding the
Speaker 3: missing boys. Himself a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and
Speaker 3: active in his community with the sex abuse therapy group,
Speaker 3: McGrath was struck by the number of unanswered questions in
Speaker 3: the documentary. What followed, beginning in January twenty fourteen, was
Speaker 3: a five year quest to find the answers to this
Speaker 3: child abduction and murder mystery. Traveling all over the United States,
Speaker 3: he uncovered a labyrinth of dark secrets just beneath the
Speaker 3: surface and unknown to most residents of the Biccolic communities
Speaker 3: from which the boys disappeared. Haunted by his own past,
Speaker 3: he had to navigate these dark waters if he wanted
Speaker 3: to bring truth and justice to the victims and their families.
Speaker 3: The book that we're featuring this evening is Obsessed, A
Speaker 3: Survivor's Quest to Find the Lost Boys of New England,
Speaker 3: with my special guest, private investigator, writer and author David McGrath.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 3: for this interview. David McGrath.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Dan, so glad to be back, and I appreciate you
Speaker 4: allowing me to come on for the second time to
Speaker 4: talk about the new book.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Man, Thank you so much and congratulations on this new book, Obsessed,
Speaker 3: A Survivor's Quest to find Justice for the Lost Boys
Speaker 3: of New England. You just mentioned that, let's talk about
Speaker 3: the first version of this book or when you first
Speaker 3: tackled some of this subject matter. Tell us about Monster,
Speaker 3: and then tell us about the genesis of this book obsessed.
Speaker 2: Thank you Dan.
Speaker 4: When I wrote Monster, I had about six hundred and
Speaker 4: fifty pages of handwritten notes over multiple notebooks.
Speaker 2: And I didn't want to write you know, Warren.
Speaker 4: First of all, I had no idea that you know,
Speaker 4: when you write a book about child murder and child
Speaker 4: rape and pedophiles, you know, you're starting to think about like,
Speaker 4: what kind of audience would actually pick this up, you know, never,
Speaker 4: so you have that going against you right away, and
Speaker 4: then you have the idea of the book being, you know,
Speaker 4: the true crime version of Warren Peace.
Speaker 2: So I didn't want it to be that.
Speaker 4: So I always kind of had an idea that two
Speaker 4: books would be. I would have The Monster, the first book,
Speaker 4: which really just kind of chronicles the life and crimes
Speaker 4: of one man, in particular Wayne Chapman, with sprinkling in
Speaker 4: of some of his cohorts like bar Jona and Charles Pearce,
Speaker 4: and the new updated book was going to be more
Speaker 4: of you know, these other child murders that happened around
Speaker 4: the time that Chapman and Barjona and Pierce were active,
Speaker 4: and updates on where they've all gone since I published
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty two. And you know, when you publish
Speaker 4: a book and you do podcasts like yours, which have
Speaker 4: tremendous reach, people are going to come to you with
Speaker 4: new information and you're going to have to vet that information,
Speaker 4: chase it down, reinterview people, maybe interview some people that
Speaker 4: you know are very close to it, like I did.
Speaker 2: And that's really what the new book is.
Speaker 4: It's a continuation of Monster, but also, hey, this is
Speaker 4: what I've found out in.
Speaker 2: The last two years.
Speaker 4: Here's some loopholes that I've been able to close, and
Speaker 4: I've even named more names now and certain murders that
Speaker 4: people are going to remember from the first book.
Speaker 2: So that's what the new book is.
Speaker 4: And Monster was, you know, the original book was just
Speaker 4: get as much as the information that I've compiled over
Speaker 4: seven years out, get it out of my head and
Speaker 4: into a book that's coherent so people can digest it
Speaker 4: and understand what exactly happened from say, nineteen seventy four
Speaker 4: to nineteen seventy seven here in this region.
Speaker 3: Dam now tell us the states that are primarily involved
Speaker 3: in this story.
Speaker 4: Well, you start obviously with Massachusetts, primarily the Boston area,
Speaker 4: Providence Rhode Island, which is just about a thirty minute
Speaker 4: drive ninety five cells from Boston.
Speaker 2: You have a missing person two missing boys.
Speaker 4: In the state of Maine, which is a couple hour
Speaker 4: drive north. Still in the New England region, you have Connecticut,
Speaker 4: where multiple girls went missing in the nineteen seventies and
Speaker 4: were tied to some of these men. And you have
Speaker 4: other states too. You have Virginia, you have Ohio, you
Speaker 4: have Upstate New York. Obviously it's more just like an
Speaker 4: Eastern Seaboard type of thing, But primarily I focus on
Speaker 4: the New England region, the sixth states in New England
Speaker 4: minus New Hampshire.
Speaker 1: Dan.
Speaker 3: For audience that did not hear about Wayne Chapman, tell
Speaker 3: us a little bit about Wayne Chapman before we get
Speaker 3: into some of the other heroic and not soil heroic
Speaker 3: characters in this story.
Speaker 4: Well, Wayne Chapman was a pedophile, a totally fixated child
Speaker 4: predator who was born and raised in upstate New York
Speaker 4: and around early nineteen seventy two. Somehow, some way, Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman ended up living in the Providence, Rhode Island area.
Speaker 4: And for those of you who read the first book,
Speaker 4: you know I was theorized that the reason why Chapman
Speaker 4: ended up in Providence was because it was the at
Speaker 4: the time, it was the hub of child pornography production, sales,
Speaker 4: distribution of the.
Speaker 2: Entire United States. And it certainly was.
Speaker 4: I mean, there's FBI files dating back to the late
Speaker 4: nineteen sixties, specifically around mob boss Roy DeMeo, who worked
Speaker 4: in the out of New York, who they picked up
Speaker 4: cables of him speaking.
Speaker 2: On wiretap saying that he's selling his.
Speaker 4: Child pornography distribution business down to Providence to Raymond patriarcha
Speaker 4: who ran the Providence wing of the organized crime. So
Speaker 4: the mob was heavily involved in the production and distribution
Speaker 4: selling of child pornography here in Providence, and I believe
Speaker 4: that's how a young Wayne Chapman came to Providence. Now,
Speaker 4: a man who lived in upstate New York had been
Speaker 4: committing crimes his entire life. He had already been in
Speaker 4: prison for molesting young boys in the states of Pennsylvania,
Speaker 4: in New York and even crossed over the border. He
Speaker 4: wrote a fair amount and talked a fair amount of
Speaker 4: how he crossed over the border in New York into
Speaker 4: places like Montreal and Toronto and had been indulging in
Speaker 4: the underground sex industry there, specifically around children in the
Speaker 4: late nineteen sixties and early nineteen seventies. And you know,
Speaker 4: I always theorized that you know, did he did?
Speaker 2: He did?
Speaker 4: He just simply wake up in the morning and throw
Speaker 4: darts at maps and end up in Providence, Rhode Island.
Speaker 2: It's just you know, six hours away. How did that happen?
Speaker 4: And how it happened is these men who peddled porn
Speaker 4: here in Providence where I live, needed low level foot
Speaker 4: soldiers to go out there and produce it. And that's
Speaker 4: how Wayne Chapman ended up here. And that's how it
Speaker 4: came to be that a lot of these boys went missing,
Speaker 4: because what was happening is they were simply just doing
Speaker 4: what all pedophiles do. They were getting in positions where
Speaker 4: they could have some sort of power over children. They
Speaker 4: were making up fake four H clubs, which here in
Speaker 4: America are sort of like these boy scout clubs where
Speaker 4: you know, underprivileged, underserved children can kind of go and
Speaker 4: have like a big brother type of situation. You know,
Speaker 4: they can take them out and you know, take them
Speaker 4: to sporting events and out fishing and things like that.
Speaker 4: And I've interviewed, you know, scores of Chapman victims who
Speaker 4: were part of those fake four age clubs where Chapman
Speaker 4: would basically just make flyers and put them out around
Speaker 4: and say, hey, you know, this is the kind of
Speaker 4: club that I that I'm in, this is what I do,
Speaker 4: and I can take care of your children. And parents
Speaker 4: were handing them over to him. And what he was
Speaker 4: doing is he was separating them from their social groups,
Speaker 4: their families, and he was out there always with camera
Speaker 4: in hand, you know, performing sort of sexual acts with
Speaker 4: these children and selling them when he was caught. Dan,
Speaker 4: this is a guy who worked at as a janitor
Speaker 4: making three fifty an hour. He had state of the
Speaker 4: art camera equipment in his apartment in Providence. He had
Speaker 4: a dark room. Think about that. Think about what that
Speaker 4: would have cost in the early in the mid nineteen
Speaker 4: seventies for a guy making three dollars and fifty cents
Speaker 4: an hour, who had already been in prison, who simply
Speaker 4: had a high school education, He had no job. He
Speaker 4: was not a successful man by any measure. What it
Speaker 4: was was he was well funded. And that's how that's
Speaker 4: that was the to give you your listeners the scent
Speaker 4: of what it was like here at that time. The
Speaker 4: mob was heavily, heavily involved. It was a million dollar
Speaker 4: industry even at that time in the nineteen seventies, and
Speaker 4: guys like Chapman and his ilk were were their jobs
Speaker 4: was to get out there and produce it.
Speaker 2: And that's what he was doing.
Speaker 3: Now they even go even darker than the child porn,
Speaker 3: not allegations, the child porn evidence. You take us to Brockton, Massachusetts,
Speaker 3: and one of the boys missing is David John louise On,
Speaker 3: and so tell us about this, the events or the
Speaker 3: circumstances surrounding his being missing, and how you introduce a
Speaker 3: important character, Detective Frank Gentile.
Speaker 4: Well, Chapman was very mobile. He had an old converted
Speaker 4: bread truck, and he ended up in multiple different towns
Speaker 4: across Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: How I'll never know. I just he had sort of
Speaker 2: some sort of.
Speaker 4: In in all these different towns cross Massachusetts, which is
Speaker 4: a prevailing thing in this book.
Speaker 2: And in Brockton.
Speaker 4: He ended up being in Brockton one day and finding
Speaker 4: David Lewison. I don't know if Chapman set out to
Speaker 4: kill Lewison. I think, as always he was setting out to,
Speaker 4: you know, get a boy to where he could kind
Speaker 4: of get him alone, so he could take pictures and
Speaker 4: then of course, you know, hand them over to his
Speaker 4: masters so they could be produced. But every once in
Speaker 4: a while, unfortunately, of all the victims that Chapman had
Speaker 4: sexual abuse victims, some of them turned up missing. And
Speaker 4: however that happened, I'm not sure, but David Lewison goes
Speaker 4: missing in nineteen seventy four in April, if I remember correctly,
Speaker 4: and his father was a mayoral candidate. He was a
Speaker 4: very you know, he was a man that was well
Speaker 4: known in the town of Brockton. He had just ran
Speaker 4: for mayor and actually lost, but he was still had
Speaker 4: a prestigious law firm in town. And after Dave went missing,
Speaker 4: the Brockton police got together and you know, they focus
Speaker 4: hard on you know, perhaps it was a former client
Speaker 4: of his father's, or maybe somebody who didn't agree with
Speaker 4: his politics in town. And Frank Genteel, who was a
Speaker 4: sergeant on the Brockton Police department, he was a detective,
Speaker 4: always thought that the hallmarks of the Lewison thing disappearance
Speaker 4: was had a lot of hallmarks of a stranger coming
Speaker 4: into town and taken Lewis in. And there had been
Speaker 4: other cases of little boys missing. There was one much
Speaker 4: later after this that really rocked that town. It was
Speaker 4: nothing new. It's a low income area. It's sort of
Speaker 4: a town that's known to be tough in the state
Speaker 4: and Lewison. The trail went cold on Lewison for years.
Speaker 4: There was just no There was no real, real good suspects,
Speaker 4: There was no real leads. One of his little friends
Speaker 4: had mentioned something about a black man maybe named Africa,
Speaker 4: and I went into that rabbit hole a lot in
Speaker 4: the book. It wasn't until nineteen seventy six where Chapman
Speaker 4: was pulled over on the New York State Thruway. And
Speaker 4: you know, I detail the vehicle pullover in as much
Speaker 4: detail as I possibly could. You know, Chapman was pulled
Speaker 4: over and you know, there was child pornography all over
Speaker 4: his dashboard. They found reels and reels of child pornography.
Speaker 4: In the back of his truck. They found hand drawn
Speaker 4: maps of different towns, including Lawrence, Massachusetts, where Andy Paglisi
Speaker 4: would later go missing Rockton towns like that, and they
Speaker 4: eventually pulled him in and interviewed him regarding the lewis
Speaker 4: In case because they realized that they had a real
Speaker 4: child predator on their hands, and they wanted to talk
Speaker 4: to him about every missing boy case that was anywhere
Speaker 4: close to where Chapman had been. And as it turns
Speaker 4: out Chapman's they had basically gone through his garbage and
Speaker 4: they had found receipts from the town of Brockton gas
Speaker 4: receipts around that time, and Chapman had admitted multiple occasions
Speaker 4: that he was the one who took David Lewison and
Speaker 4: then recanted his confession.
Speaker 2: How far do you want to go with it? Dan here?
Speaker 4: But eventually, in nineteen eighty they did end up finding
Speaker 4: David Lewison's body. It was in the bottom of a
Speaker 4: home that was being basically put under construction.
Speaker 2: It was being renovated.
Speaker 4: It was one of those multifamily apartment buildings where you
Speaker 4: know there are nine rooms I believe if I remember right,
Speaker 4: and a young boy had basically found him and named
Speaker 4: David o'meira. And there's a lot of discussion that maybe
Speaker 4: o'meira was also a Chapman victim, maybe somebody who.
Speaker 2: Was being groomed in the book.
Speaker 4: In both books, both versions of the books, I really
Speaker 4: kind of pour over how David Lewison's body was come
Speaker 4: to be found. Frank Genteel had no luck, you know,
Speaker 4: the sort of the entire town of Brockton has no
Speaker 4: real understanding of how Lewison's body was found and how
Speaker 4: they were led to it. Was it simply just you know,
Speaker 4: happenstance that this young boy fell upon the body or
Speaker 4: did he know something, And it's just one of those things,
Speaker 4: really strange things that happen in crime cases.
Speaker 2: Dan, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I've researched the ownership history of that home for years
Speaker 4: and years to see if there's anybody in that house
Speaker 4: who was connected to Wayne Chapman, and I just could
Speaker 4: never find it. And unfortunately, David o'meier committed suicide years
Speaker 4: later and was the victim of child of sexual abuse.
Speaker 4: So there's there's it's a real mystery, and you know,
Speaker 4: the only silver lining I would say is that David
Speaker 4: Lewison's family at least were able to lay their son
Speaker 4: to rest, and his father has a place to visit
Speaker 4: him before his death, but no real answers there in
Speaker 4: the Brocton case.
Speaker 3: That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now,
Speaker 3: this book is a product of years of your particular exhaustive,
Speaker 3: incredible investigation and which you term you coin as obsessed,
Speaker 3: basically the title of this book. But this exhaustive investigation.
Speaker 3: Also in this book feature heroic people, dedicated detectives like
Speaker 3: Detective al Mints. So introduce Detective al Mints and his
Speaker 3: interactions with Wayne Chapman.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, Detective Mints was a guy who
Speaker 4: was in the Here in Rhode Island, we have a
Speaker 4: massive navy presence in Newport and a lot of men
Speaker 4: come in from out of town. And al Mins was
Speaker 4: a Florida guy who was about to end his Navy
Speaker 4: career in Newport and was simply driving around in Providence
Speaker 4: and saw a Providence police recruitment poster and said, you know,
Speaker 4: maybe I'll stay in town and join the police force.
Speaker 4: And he does in nineteen sixty eight. What al Mince
Speaker 4: didn't know is that he was in the middle of
Speaker 4: the most corrupt town in New England, maybe in the
Speaker 4: entire country.
Speaker 2: Dan I mean that and.
Speaker 4: Think about the ground that covers with Las Vegas, Chicago, Philadelphia,
Speaker 4: places like that.
Speaker 2: There is no corruption like Providence corruptions.
Speaker 4: So Mins Joins becomes a sex crime detective pretty quickly
Speaker 4: after four years. What happens was that traffic stop happens
Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy six. Chapman's pulled out of the vehicle.
Speaker 4: They find thousands of pictures of young boys, the reels
Speaker 4: the child pornography, and the New York State Police at
Speaker 4: that time, in nineteen seventy six put out a teletype
Speaker 4: with the pictures and they say, if you recognize any
Speaker 4: of these kids, can you please give us a call?
Speaker 4: And this is across the country. Now there's pictures of
Speaker 4: these young boys in Alaska and they're trying to figure out,
Speaker 4: can you guys help us with these victims. Alman's just
Speaker 4: sitting at his desk and he sees a picture of
Speaker 4: a boy taken at the Roger Williams State Park here
Speaker 4: in Providence. Now I bring my kids there often. There's
Speaker 4: a statue in the middle of the park with a
Speaker 4: gigantic dog. You can't miss it. It's been there for years.
Speaker 4: Mint sees that recognizes it. And says, oh, I got
Speaker 4: a victim. One of these kids is in Providence. He
Speaker 4: grabs a picture, he heads out. He gets the guy's name.
Speaker 4: He realized that Wayne Chapman lives in his neighborhood in Providence,
Speaker 4: an area that he put trolls. He heads over to
Speaker 4: Wayne Chapman's house. He talks to the kids in the neighborhood.
Speaker 4: You know, they tell him that, you know, they use
Speaker 4: language I won't use here, but they basically said, yeah,
Speaker 4: we know the guy's gay and he's got a dark
Speaker 4: room up in his house. So Mince goes through is trash.
Speaker 4: He finds receipts from Brockton, he finds receipts from southern
Speaker 4: Rhode Island. He finds him from Lawrence, and he knows
Speaker 4: that there's a missing boy just weeks prior to that
Speaker 4: named Andy Peglisi in the town of Lawrence and request
Speaker 4: an interview with Wayne Chapman. So Mince heads up to
Speaker 4: New York Interviews. Chapman gets him to confess to the
Speaker 4: disappearance of Lewison and Andy.
Speaker 2: Paglisi, the Lawrence boy.
Speaker 4: Now, I should back up a little bit and let
Speaker 4: people know that in August of nineteen seventy six, a
Speaker 4: little boy went missing in the town of Lawrence, Massachusetts,
Speaker 4: from the Higgins Memorial Pool. They had brought Green Berets
Speaker 4: out from the ten Special Forces Group, who is located
Speaker 4: for Devn's. They had done a massive search for this boy.
Speaker 4: It was the biggest story in the state for about
Speaker 4: a week. The police came out and said that he's
Speaker 4: probably with a family member, and the media attention died
Speaker 4: down because people believe that, Okay, he is with a
Speaker 4: family member, he'll be returned safe. The story basically dies
Speaker 4: for a few weeks. Wayne Chapman is found in possession
Speaker 4: of the boys sock at that traffic stop, and Albert Mintz,
Speaker 4: you know, questions Chapman. He gets them under sodium pentathal eventually,
Speaker 4: which is a sort of a truth serum, which is
Speaker 4: obviously an investigative technique that would never be used today,
Speaker 4: but we're talking about nineteen seventy six here. He gets
Speaker 4: him to confess to both murders disappearances, and then Chapman
Speaker 4: of course recant, So that's why he was never indicted
Speaker 4: for any of these. Mints really connected well with Chapman.
Speaker 4: You know, I've interviewed al scores of times. He's still
Speaker 4: alive and well living in Jacksonville, Florida. And you know,
Speaker 4: he always just appealed to Chapman's good sense in the
Speaker 4: sense of, you know, the town of Providence was mob run,
Speaker 4: and he made sure to make the point to Chapman that, hey, listen,
Speaker 4: you're abusing a bunch of little Italian boys. How do
Speaker 4: you think that's gonna go over when you're in prison?
Speaker 4: And Chapman agreed that I probably wasn't gonna go over
Speaker 4: too well for him, and he got him to agree
Speaker 4: to confess to a lot of things. And then you know, eventually, unfortunately,
Speaker 4: whether it be through council or discussing it with other inmates,
Speaker 4: Chapman recanted all of his confessions. And there was just
Speaker 4: never enough evidence saved to be able to put in
Speaker 4: front of a grand jury to indict Wayne Chapman for
Speaker 4: those two murders that he almost certainly did.
Speaker 2: There's no one else but him that could have done it.
Speaker 4: And just to finish up on Mints, you know, the
Speaker 4: town of Providence, like I said, is the most career uptown.
Speaker 2: In the United States.
Speaker 4: And I'll give you the perfect example regarding Mints, a
Speaker 4: few years later after this, and Alice told me this,
Speaker 4: these stories himself, These come straight from him.
Speaker 2: It's not hearsay.
Speaker 4: There was a shop that was located across the street
Speaker 4: from the Providence Police Department main headquarters here on Westminster
Speaker 4: Street in Providence, and they were selling child pornography out
Speaker 4: of a storefront and Albert Mintz came in and said,
Speaker 4: you know, hey, listen, we got to shut this down.
Speaker 4: This is obviously we can't do this as against the law.
Speaker 4: We're going to have to shut down this store. And
Speaker 4: within forty minutes of getting back to his office, his
Speaker 4: lieutenant had called him in and basically told them, listen,
Speaker 4: you're not gonna You're not going to bul over the
Speaker 4: pornography business in this town. You're just not going to
Speaker 4: do it. And that's when Albert mints quit. That's why
Speaker 4: his career only lasted eight years on the Providence Police Department.
Speaker 4: And to this day, dan the city of Providence is
Speaker 4: ran by the adult entertainment industry.
Speaker 2: Nothing has changed.
Speaker 4: It has the most adult nightclubs per capita of resident
Speaker 4: of any city in the United States, and most adult bookstores.
Speaker 4: And it all started in the nineteen seventies. Right there
Speaker 4: at that time, and it still remains to this day
Speaker 4: the biggest point of the economy at that time. The
Speaker 4: police department was not going to allow this sex crimes
Speaker 4: detective to put an end to that.
Speaker 2: It just wasn't going to happen. So that's why his
Speaker 2: career was very short.
Speaker 3: There incredible tell us about this Bridgewater treatment center and
Speaker 3: the reason why not only Chapman but the other cohorts
Speaker 3: were going to be talking about shortly really wanted to
Speaker 3: go to Bridgewater rather than serve a sentence in a
Speaker 3: regular prison.
Speaker 4: Sure, so Chapman doesn't get indicted for the Poglici murder
Speaker 4: or the lewis and murder. Unfortunately, the grand grand jury
Speaker 4: returned no bill on the Lewis and murder and he
Speaker 4: was never indicted for anything to do with Peglici. It
Speaker 4: was just simply he confessed for Canton and that was
Speaker 4: sort of the end of it. To this day we
Speaker 4: have no real clarity on it. But he was convicted
Speaker 4: of two rapes in nineteen seventy five in Lawrence, so
Speaker 4: he was given a fifteen to thirty year sentence. Nathaniel
Speaker 4: by Jonah, another pedophile from Worcestern Massachusetts, who had connections
Speaker 4: to Wayne Chapman, was convicted of taking two boys, attempting
Speaker 4: to murder them, rape them, and then eventually tied them
Speaker 4: up and stuck them into the trunk of his car
Speaker 4: in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts. He gets a twenty year sentence and
Speaker 4: they reconnect. In Massachusetts. We have a law on the
Speaker 4: books that is the law in some states. Other states
Speaker 4: it's not. I know Washington State California have this law
Speaker 4: where the state can basically you can be done with
Speaker 4: your sentence. You can have no commitments at all to
Speaker 4: law enforcement or the state, but you can be designated
Speaker 4: as a sexually dangerous person due to your long history
Speaker 4: of commit sex crimes, and that will earn you a
Speaker 4: spot in the Bridgewater Treatment Center, which is a treatment
Speaker 4: center located in Bridgewater, Massachusetts, which is right off about
Speaker 4: thirty minutes south of Boston. And you know, it's well
Speaker 4: known that it was a country club and Barjona Chapman
Speaker 4: and a lot of people have asked me over the years, well,
Speaker 4: how do you know that Barjona and Wayne Chapman knew
Speaker 4: each other outside of the prison walls before their long
Speaker 4: prison stints. And the reason I know this is because
Speaker 4: there's been there was communications between the two of them
Speaker 4: when they first hit jail, so they would have never
Speaker 4: cross paths in the penal system before Bridgewater. But Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman was writing often to Nathaniel Barjona telling him that.
Speaker 2: Hey, you need to get your lawyer to get you
Speaker 2: over here.
Speaker 4: In Bridgewater, which was basically a state mental hospital for
Speaker 4: sex offenders. It wasn't as you know in your listeners.
Speaker 4: I've worked in prisons, I've worked in state, I've worked
Speaker 4: in federal, and I've worked in county prison dan in
Speaker 4: my career and sex offenders and not treated well as
Speaker 4: you would imagine.
Speaker 2: They're the lowest on the totem pole of criminals.
Speaker 4: And it was quite obvious that Wayne Chapman and Bardriona
Speaker 4: were not going to last in prison. So they both
Speaker 4: eventually reconnected in Bridgewater. And I don't know if you
Speaker 4: have any specific questions to that, but there was, you know,
Speaker 4: basically a covenant of Chapman Pierce Charles Pearce, who was
Speaker 4: another man that you know probably deserves some backstory here
Speaker 4: who connected with them in prison or Bridgewater, and you know,
Speaker 4: sort of form this kind of unholy union that you know,
Speaker 4: led to a lot of suffering for other little boys.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, go ahead and tell us about this what you
Speaker 3: term serial predator necrophiliac Charles Pearce, tell us about his background,
Speaker 3: and also let's talk about soon enough about the connection
Speaker 3: you think these people have in terms of murder.
Speaker 4: Sure well, Charles Pierce, this is sort of a shadowy
Speaker 4: character and this whole thing, I think he probably deserves
Speaker 4: a book onto himself. But Pierce was a carnival worker
Speaker 4: who was from the city of Haveral, Massachusetts, was the
Speaker 4: next town over from Lawrence, Massachusetts, so.
Speaker 2: Very very close.
Speaker 4: Pierce had been abusing young children for basically his entire life.
Speaker 4: He was an older man by the time he connected
Speaker 4: with Barjona and Pierce. He had killed a little girl
Speaker 4: in the town of Boxford, Massachusetts in the late nineteen sixties.
Speaker 4: He was a main suspect and had confessed at certain
Speaker 4: times to killing a young girl in the town of
Speaker 4: tall And, Connecticut, and had basically been shipped between Florida
Speaker 4: and Massachusetts for his entire life. He lived in Hillsborough
Speaker 4: County in Tampa Bay area down south and kind of
Speaker 4: split his time between the south and the north up
Speaker 4: here in Boston, as many New Englanders do when the
Speaker 4: weather starts to get cold. He was also, like I said,
Speaker 4: a carnival worker, so he kind of traveled throughout the Midwest,
Speaker 4: in the American South. So there had been reports of
Speaker 4: another little boy that I talk about who went missing
Speaker 4: in downtown Chicago, Proper, who was more than likely a
Speaker 4: Pierce victim. And you know Pierce, Unfortunately there's not he
Speaker 4: died in nineteen ninety nine, and there's not a lot
Speaker 4: of court documents out there related to Pierce. But I
Speaker 4: will tell you that, you know, I've had a lot
Speaker 4: of discussions with state troopers detectives about Charles Pierce, and
Speaker 4: he admitted at one point to about one hundred child murders.
Speaker 2: Obviously, I don't believe that.
Speaker 4: When asked at one time, you know, how many bodies
Speaker 4: do we have out here, Charlie, he really couldn't remember.
Speaker 4: He just simply said, there's just so many. And I
Speaker 4: believe that he had connections to Barjona and Chapman on
Speaker 4: the outside before prison. And I believe that Charlie Pierce
Speaker 4: might have helped get that David Lewison's body into that
Speaker 4: steamer trunk and underneath that house for Wayne Chapman. I
Speaker 4: think that when Wayne Chapman went out to commit crimes
Speaker 4: in the mid to early nineteen seventies in New England,
Speaker 4: Charles Pearce was on his speed dial for when he
Speaker 4: needed to get rid of a body.
Speaker 2: Not Barjona.
Speaker 4: Barjona was way too recognizable. He was around three hundred
Speaker 4: and fifty four hundred pounds, scraggly beard, long hair. If
Speaker 4: you ran in Nathaniel Barjona, chances are you weren't going
Speaker 4: to forget him. Pierce was the like Chapman, you know,
Speaker 4: normal height, you know, normal to above average height, normal look.
Speaker 4: You know you wouldn't remember these two guys. I think
Speaker 4: that you know, Pierce was probably the guy who was
Speaker 4: helping Chapman get rid of some of these bodies.
Speaker 3: I really do, well, give us some more information that
Speaker 3: you think puts these people together as accomplishes, some of
Speaker 3: the skills that one person didn't have, or the intellect
Speaker 3: and another person didn't have, and maybe just the motivation
Speaker 3: for all of these people to operate with each other
Speaker 3: in the first place.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think that like any group of people, especially pedophiles,
Speaker 4: you know, they know that the rest of the world
Speaker 4: is basically disgusted by their behavior, and they're really shunned
Speaker 4: by polite society. So when you find each other, you
Speaker 4: have a tendency to stick together. And I've noticed that,
Speaker 4: as I've noted in all of my writing, I've certainly
Speaker 4: noticed that behind the prison walls with pedophiles kind of
Speaker 4: grouping together, you can kind of always find them. And
Speaker 4: that's because they're just so disgusted, you know, the rest
Speaker 4: of people are just so disgusted by them that you know,
Speaker 4: you have to find some validation in each other. And
Speaker 4: that's what I believe Pierce and Barjona did. And remember,
Speaker 4: I mean, Chapman was a like eighty IQ guy, not
Speaker 4: a guy who could who I would really, you know,
Speaker 4: consider a master criminal. But Pierce was and Barjona was,
Speaker 4: and those guys knew to deny, deny, and I believe
Speaker 4: that they coached Chapman to deny all of these you know,
Speaker 4: after those confessions, you know that Chapman made to Albert
Speaker 4: Mintz when he was honest for one time in his
Speaker 4: life and talked about how he had murdered those two
Speaker 4: boys and disposed of their bodies, and talked about certain
Speaker 4: things that you know, Andy PAGLSI was had on it
Speaker 4: that day, and certain things that David Lewison had on
Speaker 4: that day that only could be known to the people
Speaker 4: that saw them that day.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of things.
Speaker 4: There that that Chapman mentioned that could only be known
Speaker 4: to someone who had seen Andy that day. He was
Speaker 4: certainly there, multiple eyewitnesses put him there. So after those confessions,
Speaker 4: he never confessed to anything again. He just simply acted
Speaker 4: like that never happened. And I believe that's why. That's
Speaker 4: because Pierce got to him. And I think that their
Speaker 4: operation was the selling and distributing of child pornography, and
Speaker 4: anything that got in the way of that, like a murder,
Speaker 4: or brought heat upon them like a murder, was something
Speaker 4: that Charlie Peerce was going to have to deal with.
Speaker 4: And that's how I believe that they were connected. I
Speaker 4: think if Chapman never set out to murder these boys,
Speaker 4: I don't believe that he was one of those guys
Speaker 4: who had this sort of now Barjona, that's a different story.
Speaker 4: I believe that he actually got off on the pain
Speaker 4: of his victims, and that certainly can be noted on
Speaker 4: multiple occasions.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to go into that.
Speaker 4: I think Chapman was a pedophile, but really there for business.
Speaker 4: But sometimes when you're trying to create these specific sexual
Speaker 4: scenarios with little boys, specifically those who have health problems
Speaker 4: or things like that, things have a tendency to get
Speaker 4: out of hand, and their business was going to suffer
Speaker 4: if there's a bunch of bodies around. And I think
Speaker 4: that's where Charlie Pierce came into it.
Speaker 3: Dan, that's just as that's an opportunity to stop to
Speaker 3: hear these messages. Now you talked about that Charles Pearce
Speaker 3: confesses on his deathbed then directs authorities to a field
Speaker 3: in lawrence, let's talk about some of the potential misdirection
Speaker 3: that these guys employ with law enforcement and also the
Speaker 3: idea that they may just be confessing just to get
Speaker 3: to a hospital setting.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I you know, my opinions have sort of evolved on that. Dan,
Speaker 4: that's a great question. Thank you for asking it. You know,
Speaker 4: in the beginning of this, you know, I used to
Speaker 4: think that while this guy is making these confessions because
Speaker 4: he's this brutal child murderer, and it's all true, and
Speaker 4: you know, these criminals are not that sophisticated, but you know,
Speaker 4: the evidence beares out the exact opposite.
Speaker 2: I just think that.
Speaker 4: Charles Pearce was doing hard time in a Florida prison
Speaker 4: down in Tampa Bay, where as somebody who's worked for
Speaker 4: the Florida doc in my past and knows that, you know,
Speaker 4: those summers with no air conditioning and a cell block
Speaker 4: can be tough. And I've lived it and I know,
Speaker 4: and there is a lot of motivation to get the
Speaker 4: hell out of there and get and confess to a
Speaker 4: crime in Massachusetts and get yourself extradited to a mental
Speaker 4: hospital that is well known for having, you know, carnivals
Speaker 4: inside the hospital. That's not a joke, that's not over,
Speaker 4: that's not me adding fluff. That is literally what they
Speaker 4: would do. They would have carnivals with pedophiles running the rides.
Speaker 4: So I don't believe any of Pierce's confessions, especially to
Speaker 4: these fields that were dug up in Lawrence. There were
Speaker 4: certainly no bodies ever found and no more murders. Pierce
Speaker 4: went down for one murder, that's it, the Michelle Wilson
Speaker 4: murder in Boxford, which he absolutely did anything else I have,
Speaker 4: I don't believe hardly any of it, because there's just
Speaker 4: no evidence that Charles Pierce ever killed another child in Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: So nobody's ever turned up. It's just simply his conjecture,
Speaker 4: and I think he just liked to play games with police.
Speaker 4: And the only other murder that I can absolutely, in
Speaker 4: my heart of hearts tie to Charles Pierce would be
Speaker 4: that Chicago murder of that little boy went missing during
Speaker 4: the carnival. And you know, i'd keep a lookout for
Speaker 4: some of the work that I'm doing right now because
Speaker 4: I think that we're going to get some finality to
Speaker 4: this old cold case very very soon. So yeah, to
Speaker 4: answer your question, Dan, I just think that he, unlike Chapman,
Speaker 4: was a somewhat sophisticated criminal and could kind of gain
Speaker 4: the system to work for him a little bit if
Speaker 4: he confessed to these murders that he didn't do.
Speaker 3: Let's talk a little bit more about Nathaniel bar Jonah
Speaker 3: and that's not his original name, and their contact contact
Speaker 3: with Chapman in Bridgewater, but also that you have correspondence
Speaker 3: between Nathaniel bar Jonah's friend, a Doc Bowman, and so
Speaker 3: very interesting correspondence that you talk about and write about
Speaker 3: in this book.
Speaker 4: Well, Barjona was born just the quickest backstories born and Worcester,
Speaker 4: which is a central Massachusetts large city, ended up committing crimes,
Speaker 4: you know, at a breakneck pace. Basically the first crime
Speaker 4: he ever committed was a day of his high school graduation.
Speaker 2: He was a pedophile who did prefer boys.
Speaker 4: He often would mistake little girls with short haircuts for boys.
Speaker 4: He ends up abducting a child on the day of
Speaker 4: his high school graduation, ends up being a female child
Speaker 4: with a short haircut. Once he realizes that she's a girl,
Speaker 4: you know, he beats her nearly to death in the
Speaker 4: front seat of his mother's vehicle, and then it kind
Speaker 4: of just goes from there. He ends up getting abducted,
Speaker 4: excuse me, ends up getting indicted on a kidnapping charge
Speaker 4: where he put those two boys into the back seat
Speaker 4: of his trunk, excuse me, into the trunk of his
Speaker 4: car in Shrewsbury. He ends up also in Bridgewater. There's
Speaker 4: a lot of correspondence between him and Chapman about you know,
Speaker 4: how could they have known each other unless they knew
Speaker 4: each other on the outside.
Speaker 2: So that's how I sort of started putting that together.
Speaker 4: They'd never cross paths in the prison system, so they
Speaker 4: certainly couldn't become friends then. So let's just fast forward
Speaker 4: to Bowman. You know, bar Jonah does you know, about
Speaker 4: ten years of that sentence and ends up getting released
Speaker 4: in the early nineteen nineties out of Bridgewater, and you know,
Speaker 4: he immediately comes out in the town of Dudley, Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: He's found in you know, a mother had and her
Speaker 4: son had gone to a post office, and you know,
Speaker 4: the mom had ran in really really fast, and you know,
Speaker 4: did horrify all your parents out there? She she comes
Speaker 4: out to her son basically with a three hundred pound
Speaker 4: man sitting on top of him.
Speaker 2: Wow. And Barjona and you know I mentioned earlier that.
Speaker 4: He he liked to inflict terror on his victims, unlike Chapman.
Speaker 2: I really believe he got off on the terror.
Speaker 4: So you know, the mom had shoot Barjona away and
Speaker 4: called the local authorities. The local authorities had already had
Speaker 4: an idea of who Barjona was. He was just such
Speaker 4: a prolific criminal that one of the local cops recognized
Speaker 4: his his description and ended up over at his mother's house.
Speaker 2: They grabbed him.
Speaker 4: He gets out that afternoon and he takes a cab,
Speaker 4: and you know, he had read the police report on
Speaker 4: the woman who turned him in, had her address, So
Speaker 4: he takes a cab that afternoon.
Speaker 2: Mind you, he had just gotten out of prison.
Speaker 4: He had just done almost a decade for you know,
Speaker 4: in a mental institution for abduction of two little boys.
Speaker 4: He's out, you know, a week, and he's taking a
Speaker 4: cab to this woman's house and he just simply stood
Speaker 4: at the front door and scared the living hell out
Speaker 4: of the mother and father and a.
Speaker 2: Little boy, obviously.
Speaker 4: And the very next day he's in court and they
Speaker 4: basically say, you know, the judge doesn't put him back
Speaker 4: in jail.
Speaker 2: They give him probation.
Speaker 4: He tells the judge, listen, my brother owns a bunch
Speaker 4: of property in the town of Great Falls, Montana. I
Speaker 4: am out of Massachusetts. And the judge is basically just
Speaker 4: happy to see him. Go listen, get the hell out
Speaker 4: of here. Great you're leaving the state. Check in with probation,
Speaker 4: make sure that they get squared away with the probation
Speaker 4: office in Montana, and.
Speaker 2: You'll be good to go. Barjona never does that.
Speaker 4: He just simply walks out, hitches this trailer and heads
Speaker 4: off with his mother to the town of Great Falls, Montana.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 4: Now, when he gets there, he picks up a charge
Speaker 4: pretty immediately for allegedly molesting a young boy who he
Speaker 4: was babysitting. He meets a man named James Doc Bowman,
Speaker 4: who is a sort of At the beginning of my investigation,
Speaker 4: I thought that he wasn't going to be such a
Speaker 4: central figure.
Speaker 2: But as I began to look.
Speaker 4: Into Doc Bowman more, I realized dan that he had
Speaker 4: actually lived in Massachusetts as well.
Speaker 2: He had been a founding member of the Nambler.
Speaker 4: Group, which is operated, unfortunately to our great disgrace and
Speaker 4: my home state, since the mid nineteen seventies. We can
Speaker 4: certainly get into that. That's probably a discussion onto itself.
Speaker 4: So I'm really curious as to how bar Jona and
Speaker 4: Bauman got together. I think there's much more there. I
Speaker 4: think there might even been some pre planning there. I
Speaker 4: think that they absolutely knew each other at one point,
Speaker 4: and maybe a cross paths back here before ending up there.
Speaker 4: Either way, they're both now unfortunately problems of the state
Speaker 4: of Montana, and they begin to get into a bit
Speaker 4: of a love triangle with a ten year old boy
Speaker 4: named Zach Ramsey in.
Speaker 2: The town of Great Falls. This boy goes missing.
Speaker 4: It's a long, convoluted story of just how bar Jona
Speaker 4: what he did to this boy allegedly. Unfortunately, again, which
Speaker 4: is a recurring theme in this book, to my great anger,
Speaker 4: they just could never get enough evidence to indict Nathaniel
Speaker 4: Barjona on the murder of Jackary Ramsey.
Speaker 2: Eyewitnesses put him.
Speaker 4: As the very last person ever see him on the
Speaker 4: day of February eighteenth, nineteen ninety four. Bowman, who was
Speaker 4: also a pedophile, a long standing with years and years
Speaker 4: in history. I mean, I had traced him back to
Speaker 4: the nineteen sixties Dan where he was this character Doc Bowman,
Speaker 4: he had been a music teacher in the town of Denver,
Speaker 4: Colorado in the late nineteen sixties, and he basically had
Speaker 4: a mob with pitchforks at his door running him out
Speaker 4: town because so many boys had complained that he had
Speaker 4: groped them and molested them. The amount of victims that
Speaker 4: this man had was just it's unbelievable, and it's unbelievable
Speaker 4: how he's still on the streets in nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 4: all these years later, you know. So he tells Barjona
Speaker 4: of his plan. You know, they're going to take He's
Speaker 4: going to take Zach. He's going to pretend that he's
Speaker 4: his grandfather. He's going to drive to the Canadian border,
Speaker 4: and he's going to take this boy away forever. Barjona
Speaker 4: had other ideas, and that morning Zach Ramsey went missing.
Speaker 4: The last person to be seen with Zachary Ramsey was
Speaker 4: a Nathaniel Barjona in an alleyway in Great Falls, Montana,
Speaker 4: which I had been to multiple occasions in the investigation
Speaker 4: of this book. Barjona's Montana activities are really incredible when
Speaker 4: you look at them in totality, the amount of boys
Speaker 4: who had complained about him molesting them he had oftentimes
Speaker 4: he to the point dan where he had and then
Speaker 4: impersonating a police officer as basically a school resource officer.
Speaker 2: Which is a common thing in the States.
Speaker 4: Not too sure if it's common in Canada, but a
Speaker 4: lot of schools in the States will have a police
Speaker 4: officer dedicated to that school, where he's a uniformed officer
Speaker 4: who's in that school all day.
Speaker 2: The kids begin to know him, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 4: Barjona had spent so much time at the local elementary school.
Speaker 2: Now think of this.
Speaker 4: This is a convicted pedophile with years and years of
Speaker 4: history of violent crimes.
Speaker 2: Towards children, and nobody ever questioned it.
Speaker 4: Nobody knew that he actually wasn't a police officer and
Speaker 4: he was actually just a pedophile trying to get closer
Speaker 4: to kids. You know, Ramsey disappears. A detective from Gray Falls,
Speaker 4: Montana man named James Cameron, who worked with me good
Speaker 4: amounts for this book and was excellent with this time,
Speaker 4: always suspected Barjona of it.
Speaker 2: Spent years and years, to the detriment of his.
Speaker 4: Marriage and his career, really lost it all to prove
Speaker 4: that Nathaniel Barjona was the one who abducted an eventually
Speaker 4: cannibalized zach Ramsey. And the reason why the cannibalization alleged,
Speaker 4: why that comes into play, is because Bowman and Barjona had.
Speaker 2: Written notes back and forth to each other.
Speaker 4: Where they talked in code about zach Ramsey's body and
Speaker 4: they called it deer meat d e ar as.
Speaker 2: In deer as a term of endearment or your wife.
Speaker 4: And a detective with the Great Falls Police Department told
Speaker 4: me on the record that with his first initial search
Speaker 4: of Nathaniel Barjona's apartment. He opened the freezer and there
Speaker 4: was a there was a ton of bag meat and
Speaker 4: it smelled horrible, and he shut it and he said,
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ, this guy needs to clean out his freezer.
Speaker 4: He thought it was just bad meat. And what he
Speaker 4: didn't realize was he was probably staring at the body
Speaker 4: of Zachary Ramsey and maybe could have closed the case
Speaker 4: right then and there. It's just a lot of luck
Speaker 4: or bad luck, depending on how you look at it.
Speaker 4: And unfortunately, the murder of zach Ramsey will never ever
Speaker 4: be solved because Nathaniel Barjona is long dead and anyone
Speaker 4: who knew about it. You know, I recount the story
Speaker 4: in the book Dan of how Bowman was going to
Speaker 4: basically confess to James Cameron, the detective on the case
Speaker 4: that Barjona had had taken Ramsey, killed him and cannibalized him.
Speaker 4: And the day that they were supposed to meet, James,
Speaker 4: Doc Bowman at a heart attack on the stairs of
Speaker 4: the Great Falls.
Speaker 2: Police Department and died. Incredible, incredible story, you know, yeah, incredible.
Speaker 3: That's just as an opportunity to stop we're second to
Speaker 3: hear these messages. Now, we talked about this incredible claim
Speaker 3: of cannibalism, but we also talked about Charles Pearson necrophilia.
Speaker 3: And I have to say that this is the first
Speaker 3: time I've ever seen an author make the connection from
Speaker 3: all the way from nambla to child porn to molestation
Speaker 3: and rape to necrophilia. Can you make that connection?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and real quick, Dan, if you and you know,
Speaker 4: just so people understand, you know, the nambuok this, these
Speaker 4: these connections are all if someone was to do wanted
Speaker 4: to do the work, you could certainly make the connections
Speaker 4: no problem.
Speaker 2: By reading the court documents, we know.
Speaker 4: That Barjona had, you know, the the FBI had come
Speaker 4: in on the a special agent named James Wilson had
Speaker 4: become obsessed. He was part of the Montana Resident Agency
Speaker 4: of the FBI. He in fact still lives to this
Speaker 4: day and we just saw each other not too long ago,
Speaker 4: and he's a guy who's still obsessed. In fact, Barjonah
Speaker 4: had written a bunch of codes a lah you know,
Speaker 4: the Zodiac killer, and he and he and he kind
Speaker 4: of kept them with them in his notebook and a
Speaker 4: lot of those codes were broken and they were recipes
Speaker 4: basically little boy stew things like that. So he had
Speaker 4: an interest in human flesh. He had expressed that multiple times.
Speaker 4: And this FBI agent actually the last time we spoke
Speaker 4: years later. After all this has kind of faded from
Speaker 4: public memory. Barjone has been dead since two thousand and eight.
Speaker 4: He still kept Barjon his codes in his wallet. It
Speaker 4: was incredible. That's how much this case can drag you in.
Speaker 4: You know, it really does kind of just it's all
Speaker 4: encompassing once you start to get a handle on it.
Speaker 4: And the Namblet connection is again mostly is just from
Speaker 4: court documents they you know, and I don't know how
Speaker 4: much you want to hit on this, but if you're
Speaker 4: talking about a sign of the sort of the period
Speaker 4: of what it.
Speaker 2: Was like in New England in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 4: Just you know, minutes, you know, miles away from where
Speaker 4: Andy Baglisi disappeared, you know, twenty minute drive away from
Speaker 4: where David Lewison disappeared. In the town of Revere, Massachusetts,
Speaker 4: which is a beach town north of Boston, there was
Speaker 4: a sex ring that was broken up adult males, specifically
Speaker 4: one named Richard Paluzzo, who was an advertising executive who
Speaker 4: worked at his father's company. It was a massive company
Speaker 4: in the fifties, sixties and seventies called Plue Uzzoh Advertising,
Speaker 4: which was started by his father. Now, neighbors had complained
Speaker 4: as early as nineteen seventy five that there were young
Speaker 4: boys outside of Paluzzo's home all hours of the night,
Speaker 4: days times, drinking alcoholic beverages, smoking marijuana, and eventually the
Speaker 4: police broke it up and what they found was address
Speaker 4: books and victims willing to come forward that had been
Speaker 4: pimped out by Paluzzo to very famous and affluent men
Speaker 4: all around town in New England, and.
Speaker 2: A lot of them.
Speaker 4: Some of them were headmasters of schools, police officers, head
Speaker 4: of endercinology cancer research in Boston hospitals. These were men
Speaker 4: of all walks of life, and so Paluzzo had gotten
Speaker 4: a thirty year sentence for his role in pimping out
Speaker 4: these young boys. And some local prominent gay activists who
Speaker 4: wrote for certain rags had written extensively about how this
Speaker 4: was a witch hunt against gay men. Specific a man
Speaker 4: named David Brill who was a very very prominent at
Speaker 4: the time gay writer and activist, and he had written
Speaker 4: constantly about how this was a witch hunt. There were
Speaker 4: really no victims. And Dan, I've seen these court documents.
Speaker 4: These kids lived on the fringes of society. Some of
Speaker 4: them were orphans, had no family, and these men simply
Speaker 4: scooped them.
Speaker 2: Up and destroyed their lives.
Speaker 4: And these guys had just all of them, I mean,
Speaker 4: certain guys that I mentioned from those core documents when
Speaker 4: I dug into their past and interviewed people.
Speaker 2: Who knew them.
Speaker 4: You know, there was a man who was a headmaster
Speaker 4: at a school called the fesson In School, and it
Speaker 4: was a boarding school, an elite one in a very
Speaker 4: affluent town called Newton, Massachusetts. And this man I've interviewed
Speaker 4: scores of people who lived under this guy's rule at
Speaker 4: the fesson In School. One boy recounted to me how
Speaker 4: you know, he would get him high and drunk, and
Speaker 4: he would hang him from the ceiling and he would
Speaker 4: abuse his body. He would whip him, I mean, and
Speaker 4: it was just known. And when the FBI finally came
Speaker 4: in and arrested some of these men at the Fessenden School,
Speaker 4: the kids got up and cheered in the middle of school.
Speaker 4: I mean, it was incredible when you look at it.
Speaker 4: Who was involved in this sex ring. But circling back
Speaker 4: to Nambla, Reil had written about it so long and
Speaker 4: he had whipped up the local gay community into thinking
Speaker 4: that this was a witch hunt. And in nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 4: while Paluzzo and one of the main curators, a man
Speaker 4: named Frank Domiano, who had a history it's such a
Speaker 4: long history of abusing boys dating back to the late
Speaker 4: nineteen fifties in California, you know, I talk about him
Speaker 4: extensively in the book, they organized what was essentially a
Speaker 4: stand in at the Bridgewater Home for Sexually Dangerous the
Speaker 4: mental hospital that we mentioned earlier, and they had done
Speaker 4: a big standout in nineteen seventy seven in response to
Speaker 4: the Bridgewater excuse me to the revere sex cases being adjudicated,
Speaker 4: and that evening is when the original Namble meeting took
Speaker 4: place all the as it's called the twenty two Nambla meeting,
Speaker 4: and that's how that group was formed, which was called
Speaker 4: in Time magazine the most hated group in America. They'd
Speaker 4: come into national prominence. The FBI eventually infiltated traded their group.
Speaker 2: I had spoken to a.
Speaker 4: Man named Bob Hamer for the book, who was an
Speaker 4: FBI agent who was assigned to infiltrate NAMBLA.
Speaker 2: He did so very effectively.
Speaker 4: Recounted one story to me of how he was at
Speaker 4: a toy store in New York City with about a
Speaker 4: dozen NAMBLA members and they were making some very suggestive
Speaker 4: comments towards boys who were there shopping with their families.
Speaker 4: And Bob told me, Dave, if I had a grenade,
Speaker 4: I would have pulled the pin right there. And you
Speaker 4: know this is a man who Hamer, who he he
Speaker 4: got so far into this group, Dan, that he was
Speaker 4: writing for their newsletter. Literally he was putting out NAMBLA
Speaker 4: newsletters and they were very they were huge on putting
Speaker 4: out communications. I have them all dating back to the
Speaker 4: mid nineteen seventies. Their first ever clubhouse or main office,
Speaker 4: if you will, located just half a mile away from
Speaker 4: Fenway Park down the North Station area, Boston. But you
Speaker 4: know the point of it is the Nambler connection can
Speaker 4: be drawn right to its affirmation was right there at
Speaker 4: the Revere Sex Ring in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 2: That's where it was created.
Speaker 3: Dan, you have continued to investigate the crimes of Wayne Chapman,
Speaker 3: Nathaniel Barjona, and Charles Pearce. But you say that someone
Speaker 3: that kept the story alive of her friend Andy Pooh Glsi.
Speaker 3: She made an award winning documentary Have You Seen Andy?
Speaker 3: So you say that she continued with her journalism to
Speaker 3: keep the story in the public spotlight and also to
Speaker 3: continue her own investigation.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, if it weren't for that documentary, we certainly
Speaker 4: wouldn't be talking, probably wouldn't know the story. You know,
Speaker 4: I first saw Have You Seen Andy? Back when my
Speaker 4: first son was born around twenty thirteen, and that's what
Speaker 4: got me into you know, I never spoke to Melanie.
Speaker 4: You know, obviously we know each other how but you know,
Speaker 4: I had never once reached out to her when, you know,
Speaker 4: I told myself, Okay, I'm going to take on looking
Speaker 4: at this myself. And I figured that would just be
Speaker 4: like the easy way out, because Melanie certainly seemed to
Speaker 4: know everything. You know, she grew up with Andy, she
Speaker 4: lived there, she was at the pool that day. I
Speaker 4: can't be Dan. I wasn't born until nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 4: I wasn't even alive when all this happened. You know,
Speaker 4: the bottom line is, you know, she lived it. She
Speaker 4: can't tell it. She can tell it better than I
Speaker 4: can from that perspective, you know what I mean. But
Speaker 4: you know, I never spoke to her in the research
Speaker 4: for any of these books because I just figured, you know,
Speaker 4: what are you gonna do? Go to somebody and tell me, Hey,
Speaker 4: tell me everything?
Speaker 2: You know? You know, I mean, that's lazy. So yeah,
Speaker 2: her work.
Speaker 4: I feel like, you know, my work has expanded on
Speaker 4: Melanie's work. Not one uped it or made it any better.
Speaker 4: It is simply just put it out there for more
Speaker 4: to see that.
Speaker 2: Listen.
Speaker 4: You know, in the nineteen seventies we had a real
Speaker 4: problem here with a lot of missing kids, and to
Speaker 4: this day, you know, other than maybe one that I
Speaker 4: talk about in the book that I think we had
Speaker 4: a big hand in, and that's the case in Webster,
Speaker 4: Massachusetts and Andrew Motto, none of these cases are never
Speaker 4: mind solved, and they're hardly even known about.
Speaker 2: And how's that possible? You know? That's why I think
Speaker 2: Mel's such a hero.
Speaker 3: You take us back in the book to this harrowing
Speaker 3: scene August twenty second, nineteen seventy six. Again you say
Speaker 3: that Wayne Chapman is at the Higgins Memorial Pool. But
Speaker 3: you say that he didn't have any fear of being
Speaker 3: recognized even though he had salted these boys a year
Speaker 3: before at the same Poolredit you say that there was
Speaker 3: multiple based on your research, there was multiple offenders at
Speaker 3: the pool that day, and you think that you have
Speaker 3: an idea of specifically offenders that were at that pool
Speaker 3: that day assisting Wayne Chapman.
Speaker 4: Well, there was five sex offenders based off the Lawrence
Speaker 4: Police Department reports of who was present that day. Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman was one of them. And how I know this
Speaker 4: is Wayne Chapman had a childhood bout with polio. He
Speaker 4: walked with a limp, as many kids of the forties
Speaker 4: and fifties unfortunately did until we developed the vaccine which
Speaker 4: saved many many lives. But unfortunately Chapman had had some
Speaker 4: side effects from it and walked with a slight limp.
Speaker 2: He also had a scar on his forehead.
Speaker 4: So you know, just going back, you know, the year
Speaker 4: prior he had you know, committed rapes, he had raped
Speaker 4: two boys in the woods behind the Higgins Memorial Pool.
Speaker 4: Melanie Perkins again just to you know, she was friendly
Speaker 4: with both of those boys as well and had a
Speaker 4: big hand and helping those boys as the years went on,
Speaker 4: and she deserves.
Speaker 2: Her kudos for that.
Speaker 4: So, like you said, Chapman had absolutely no fear of
Speaker 4: coming back to that pool where you know, you'd just
Speaker 4: raped two boys a year prior. And I believe the
Speaker 4: reason why he did that, Dan is because he had
Speaker 4: help in that area. And one thing that has been
Speaker 4: brought to light since the book, the first version of
Speaker 4: this book was published, is there was a store which
Speaker 4: I've visited now multiple times, right around the corner from
Speaker 4: the Stadium housing projects where the Higgins Memorial.
Speaker 2: Pool was located.
Speaker 4: This store was owned and was known to sell and
Speaker 4: distribute child pornography out of the storefront, much like the
Speaker 4: Providence store that we mentioned earlier. The two men who
Speaker 4: ran that store, who you know presumably made you know
Speaker 4: thousands off of being the neighborhood child porn dealer, were
Speaker 4: both Providence based men. They both lived in Providence, Rhode Island,
Speaker 4: and I believe that those two men were Chapman's plug
Speaker 4: into the Lawrence area. And that's something that has just
Speaker 4: been brought to light to me. Unfortunately in the last
Speaker 4: two years, so much more to come on that. I
Speaker 4: definitely touch on it in the new version of the
Speaker 4: book and give some alternative theories to how Chapman got there,
Speaker 4: but either way, he was comfortable in the Lawrence area,
Speaker 4: even after committing crimes that would put him in jail
Speaker 4: for thirty years. So that said, after Polici went missing,
Speaker 4: there was a lifeguard that was interviewed who worked the
Speaker 4: day of the crime and worked the next day. You know,
Speaker 4: the next day there's a massive search going on for Andy.
Speaker 4: There's military, there's police, they're canvassing the neighborhood. And the
Speaker 4: lifeguard described Wayne Chapman. Came up to her and asked
Speaker 4: her have they found anything on the missing boy, and
Speaker 4: she described Wayne Chapman to a t, as did multiple
Speaker 4: other witnesses. Now, there were five sex offenders at the
Speaker 4: pool that day, and I believe that based off of
Speaker 4: witness Remember when Andy went missing, there.
Speaker 2: Was a little boy with him and it was a boy.
Speaker 4: Named Ray Clark who was a friend of Andy's who
Speaker 4: did not come forward with his story until years later.
Speaker 4: He was abducted with Andy and taken into the woods
Speaker 4: and Ray ran away. He left his friend there and
Speaker 4: had turned around at one point, and he said that
Speaker 4: when he turned around, he saw Andy Paglici under a
Speaker 4: rock getting hit with a rock by a man, Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman and another unidentified man. And I believe that man
Speaker 4: was Charles Pearce, and especially if the rock, if there
Speaker 4: is validity to that, which I have absolutely no reason
Speaker 4: to not believe.
Speaker 2: Ray Clark.
Speaker 4: We know that he had done the very same thing
Speaker 4: to that little girl, Michelle Wilson in Boxer, Massachusetts. He
Speaker 4: had beaten her with a rock and killed her, kept
Speaker 4: her body in the truck, and he had a van
Speaker 4: much like Chapman's. He admitted to Beliee signed Affi David's
Speaker 4: under under penalty of perjury, that he kept Michelle Wilson's
Speaker 4: body in that truck for weeks after she was dead,
Speaker 4: and he had sex with the body. So I believe
Speaker 4: that's way that Charlie Pearce was there trolling for victims.
Speaker 4: And you know, once Chapman was done doing whatever he
Speaker 4: had to do to get his pictures, Charlie Pearce kind
Speaker 4: of took over, or however that worked.
Speaker 2: I'm not too sure.
Speaker 4: I've only known to the people who are there in God,
Speaker 4: but I believe that he was his. He was Wayne
Speaker 4: Chapman's accomplice on that day, not bar Jona, because Barjona.
Speaker 2: Was just way too recognizable, as we mentioned earlier.
Speaker 4: So that's what I believe happened, Dan, and I believe
Speaker 4: what they did with Andy's body. There's a lot of
Speaker 4: different opinions out there. If you ask Melanie, and I
Speaker 4: respect her opinion as the utmost authority on this subject.
Speaker 4: She believes that he was buried somewhere out in the
Speaker 4: woods behind the stadium housing projects. I've always rejected that
Speaker 4: theory until last summer. Me and Melanie went out there
Speaker 4: and walked through the woods together again. We visited this
Speaker 4: crime scene, we visited the pool together. I walked the
Speaker 4: entire route that Wayne Chapman would have walked with Andy Buglisi.
Speaker 4: And I get to tell you, Dan, those woods are
Speaker 4: so dense that it could absolutely be possible that you
Speaker 4: could bury somebody there and nobody would fall upon it.
Speaker 2: It is not the type of place where you'd go
Speaker 2: walk your dog.
Speaker 4: It could be in the exact same spot that it
Speaker 4: was from nineteen seventy six. But my theory always was,
Speaker 4: and it's the theory of the Providence Police Department as well,
Speaker 4: is that they took Andy's body put it in the
Speaker 4: back of Wayne Chapman's van and brought it here about
Speaker 4: a mile from where I lived. To Miriam Hospital where
Speaker 4: Wayne Chapman was a janitor. He had keys, and the
Speaker 4: manipulation of the furnace downstairs, the burner where they burned
Speaker 4: body potts after amputation, they burned rats, and I believe
Speaker 4: that's what they did with Andy's body.
Speaker 2: And has it ever been confirmed? It just can't be. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: we're just never going to know.
Speaker 4: There's no real bow that I can put on this
Speaker 4: for anybody, but I will tell you this. Albert Mintz
Speaker 4: went to the Merriam Hospital just days after they realized
Speaker 4: that Chapman may have been involved in this disappearance, and
Speaker 4: he found that there was an unauthorized burn the night
Speaker 4: that Andy P. Gleasey went missing, and there was human
Speaker 4: DNA that Unfortunately, now again this is a there could
Speaker 4: been a ton of human DNA in there.
Speaker 2: There burn a lot of body parts that day.
Speaker 4: I don't know, but all these burns, and I've been
Speaker 4: to Miriam, I've been there multiple times. I was just
Speaker 4: there a few weeks ago pulling Chapman's HR file to
Speaker 4: look at the days that he was off and called
Speaker 4: in and I wanted to cross check myself on a
Speaker 4: few things that I had always kind of thought but
Speaker 4: didn't know. Those furnaces were turned on by keys. You
Speaker 4: had to literally put keys in a slot and turn them.
Speaker 4: And Chapman's bosses and administration there would have had to
Speaker 4: have known that, And unfortunately nobody knew ahead of time.
Speaker 4: It just happened, and nobody can really tell you what happened.
Speaker 4: And I think that that's really an interesting thing that
Speaker 4: unfortunately will just you know, only could be known to
Speaker 4: the people were there at the time.
Speaker 2: What investigation the.
Speaker 4: Hospital did in to why a janitor who wasn't on
Speaker 4: shift that night came in and performed an unauthorized burn
Speaker 4: and for what reason?
Speaker 3: Dan, Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to
Speaker 3: hear these messages. One thing left for the Gleasy case
Speaker 3: was that you mentioned that there was some socks, bloody
Speaker 3: socks found in Charles Pearce's van, and those were linked
Speaker 3: to Andy's sister.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was actually sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 3: Dan, pardon me. So anyway, these socks what happened in
Speaker 3: terms of being tested for DNA.
Speaker 4: So it was actually not it was actually in Chapman's van,
Speaker 4: not not Pierce's yep. And what had happened was that
Speaker 4: morning that was the hottest day of the year. August
Speaker 4: twenty second, nineteen seventy six was the hottest day in
Speaker 4: the history in the city of Lawrence for that calendar year.
Speaker 2: It was around one hundred and three degrees at the height.
Speaker 4: And Andy's mother had grabbed him and said, are you
Speaker 4: really going to wear those socks to the pool? You know,
Speaker 4: his sister, you know, went to a Catholic school, had
Speaker 4: these high knee like knit socks, you know. And he
Speaker 4: was like, yeah, whatever, I'm just gonna take him off anyway.
Speaker 4: So it's stuck in his mother's mind that, hey, Andy
Speaker 4: wore these wolf socks to the pool today. One wolf
Speaker 4: sock matched it perfectly to what you know when when
Speaker 4: when it was found, they kept it in New York
Speaker 4: and they sent it down to Providence. Albert Mince went
Speaker 4: and got Andy's mother, drove her up to Providence, and
Speaker 4: she about fainted when she saw the sock. She said, Yep,
Speaker 4: that's andy sock. That's my daughter's sock. That's the last
Speaker 4: sock that I saw Andy wearing. And it ends up
Speaker 4: in Wayne Chapman's van a serial predator who had been
Speaker 4: by multiple witness accounts at the pool that day and
Speaker 4: had been there the year prior, raping boys by his
Speaker 4: own admissions. So a lot of things are starting to
Speaker 4: come together circumstantially for Chapman being the at least the
Speaker 4: main suspect in the disappearance of Paglisi. Unfortunately, Dan, you know,
Speaker 4: a key part of this book is, you know, I
Speaker 4: think that we tend to put these police in detectives
Speaker 4: on a pedestal. You know, they have badges, they have
Speaker 4: power over people. By the end of the day, they
Speaker 4: really are just people, and they're really kind of can
Speaker 4: fall into the same pitfalls that all human beings can.
Speaker 4: They make mistakes, they're sloppy, etc.
Speaker 2: Etc. And that was certainly the case here.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, those socks were never tested when DNA testing came
Speaker 4: around because they were simply just lost. Nobody knows really
Speaker 4: what happened to the sock. I've never gotten a good answer,
Speaker 4: But somewhere between the transfer of evidence from Providence Police
Speaker 4: Department to Lawrence, the socks were lost. The sock was lost,
Speaker 4: The key piece of evidence never saw the light of day.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 3: You chronicle a lot of what you might call police
Speaker 3: missteps through all of these investigations, lenient sentences and these
Speaker 3: dangerous offenders not being recognized as such. You talk about
Speaker 3: Lawrence Brewhot, a Boy Scout leader, about Lawrence brew Hat
Speaker 3: and also the Doctor. Did you call a chapter called
Speaker 3: the Doctor?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, when I first when I first got
Speaker 4: on the ground reporting on this stuff, Dan, people would
Speaker 4: tell me a lot of things.
Speaker 2: You know, people tell you a lot.
Speaker 4: Of things when you're talking to them face to face,
Speaker 4: and they think that the conversation is only known to
Speaker 4: you and them, you know, And I really that's kind
Speaker 4: of my way of reporting. I'm going to go right
Speaker 4: to the source and just talk to people on the ground.
Speaker 4: And when I started doing investigations into the Revere sex case,
Speaker 4: a lot of people had brought up to me a
Speaker 4: sex ring that had been going on in the town
Speaker 4: of Wakefield, Massachusetts, which is not too far from Revere,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe ten to fifteen minutes away from Revere.
Speaker 4: And that's how I fell upon Lawrence Brijo, who was
Speaker 4: a Boy Scout leader who had been raping young boys
Speaker 4: in the Scouts for fifteen years, to the point where
Speaker 4: there was a class action lawsuit regarding Brehout's troop that
Speaker 4: almost bankrupted the boy Scouts. To this day, you'll see
Speaker 4: commercials on TV.
Speaker 2: Hey were you a boy Scout? Were you sexually abused?
Speaker 4: Call this number get a part of this class action lawsuit.
Speaker 4: And that all comes to back to the Wakefield Boy
Speaker 4: Scout Troupe Peer in Massachusetts, where Lawrence Breho was abusing
Speaker 4: boys at just incredible paces. Unfortunately, Briho dropped dead in prison.
Speaker 4: He got a fifteen year sentence. You know what they
Speaker 4: found in Briho's how home was what was most interesting
Speaker 4: to me. He had a dark room, very simpler to
Speaker 4: just Chapman's. He had state of the art camera equipment.
Speaker 4: He had a address book of what was called very
Speaker 4: influential people, specifically gay men and the state of Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: And none of those men wherever brought into requestioned. You know,
Speaker 4: no police reports, no court records regarding as far as
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 2: Dan, they were never questioned.
Speaker 4: And you know, the question I asked in the book
Speaker 4: is simply, you know, what secrets did Lawrence Brijo take
Speaker 4: with them to the grave. You know, this was a
Speaker 4: guy who worked as a school teacher, you know, wasn't
Speaker 4: paid very handsomely, but again, much like Chapman, he had
Speaker 4: state of the art camera equipment, the pictures of young boys,
Speaker 4: a dark room set up in his own home, a laundry,
Speaker 4: list of men in an address book, and no questions asked.
Speaker 4: And I find that to be beyond suspect. You know,
Speaker 4: when they brought Richard Paluzzo in for interviewing the Revere
Speaker 4: sex ring leader, you know, I have the transcripts of
Speaker 4: the interview. I printed him in the book, and they
Speaker 4: ask him, you know what famous influential people were involved,
Speaker 4: and Richard Paluzzo tells him, Look, I'll have a hit
Speaker 4: out all my life if I tell you guys what
Speaker 4: exactly how much? The depth of who's involved in this
Speaker 4: sex case. And that's a key question in this book
Speaker 4: regarding Brijo, the doctor who will talk about in a
Speaker 4: minute and the Revere sex ring is.
Speaker 2: I don't really think we know any you know, I
Speaker 2: don't think we know one percent of what really happened there.
Speaker 2: I don't think we do.
Speaker 4: And that's the key point of my reporting is to
Speaker 4: shine some sunlight on what exactly these guys were doing
Speaker 4: and who was involved in that's most important. It doesn't
Speaker 4: you know, it's injustice for all, not injustice for some.
Speaker 3: Dam M tell us about doctor Reardon and some of
Speaker 3: the disturbing information and material they find police.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, when I was doing my big
Speaker 4: Chapman investigations, you know, between like twenty fourteen and twenty eighteen,
Speaker 4: people had been telling me that Chapman was connected to
Speaker 4: some doctor who lived in Connecticut. This doctor had long died.
Speaker 4: A family had bought their dream home in the town
Speaker 4: of West Hartford, Connecticut, about an hour's drive from where
Speaker 4: I am now in Providence, you know, a couple hours
Speaker 4: from Boston, and they had been remodeling their basement and
Speaker 4: they knocked down a wall, and you know what it
Speaker 4: fell out was the to this day, Dan, the biggest
Speaker 4: cachet of self produced child pornography that has ever been
Speaker 4: entered into evidence at any American police department ever. You're
Speaker 4: talking upwards of fifty thousand self produced reels of child pornography, pictures,
Speaker 4: the actual abuse material. And again you know, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: harp on. You know, I'm in possession of cutout pictures
Speaker 4: of Reardon. Again, no abuse material depicted, of course, but
Speaker 4: the pictures of the men performing the abuse are right
Speaker 4: there in front of your face. You're looking at unidentified
Speaker 4: men who abuse children with this doctor filming it and
Speaker 4: no answers on who they are.
Speaker 2: So this family handed over all this.
Speaker 4: To the West Hardford, Connecticut Police Department, and as it
Speaker 4: turned out, this doctor who was the chief of endercinology
Speaker 4: at a hospital and now you're talking an executive who
Speaker 4: makes upwards of three hundred thousand dollars a year, one
Speaker 4: of the most respected doctors in the entire hospital, and
Speaker 4: he had been sending out fake flyers to parents all
Speaker 4: over the Hartford area saying, hey, we want your kids
Speaker 4: to get involved in this growth study that I'm doing,
Speaker 4: and I need to see them one on one. You
Speaker 4: set out in the waiting area and he was abusing
Speaker 4: these kids, boys and girls, I mean by the hundreds load,
Speaker 4: and taking pictures of them. And he printed his pictures
Speaker 4: on a specific type of paper that the Connecticut detectives
Speaker 4: who to this day continue to call me to discuss
Speaker 4: it because they're obsessed with figuring out who exactly reared
Speaker 4: and worked with. Because there's tons of different men in
Speaker 4: these pictures and who they are is very important.
Speaker 2: They could be out there right now. We don't know.
Speaker 4: This wasn't that long ago, Dan, He only died in
Speaker 4: two thousand and six. So you know, this guy had
Speaker 4: been terrorizing kids forever. And you know, the connection I
Speaker 4: was looking for was does he have any New York
Speaker 4: connections to maybe upstate where Wayne.
Speaker 2: Chapman grew up.
Speaker 4: As it turns out, Dan, they had rated a summer
Speaker 4: home that doctor Reardon owned and it was in upstate
Speaker 4: New York, about twenty minutes for when Wayne Chapman grew up.
Speaker 4: And again they found a slightly smaller but still massive
Speaker 4: cachet of child pornography located in the walls of these homes.
Speaker 4: And they were all self produced. These pictures weren't bought
Speaker 4: at some store. These were self produced and printed in
Speaker 4: his home. And they knew that because the specific paper
Speaker 4: that he used to print it. They had not seen
Speaker 4: that anywhere. That was very specific to Reard, and he
Speaker 4: used the specific paper. So this doctor, you know, I
Speaker 4: touch on it on the book because again, it's very
Speaker 4: hard and all encompassing to make this a story that's
Speaker 4: so convoluted, with so many players, into a coherent storyline
Speaker 4: for people to follow. But it's what this guy did
Speaker 4: and who he worked with and who he may have
Speaker 4: had connections to. Is really kind of fascinating to me
Speaker 4: and deserves its own and maybe deserves its own book, Dan,
Speaker 4: who knows, maybe we'll be talking again. But this guy's
Speaker 4: crimes are incredible, the breath of them, incredible.
Speaker 3: Authorities were very suspicious and did perform ground penetrating radar
Speaker 3: but didn't have any results to find bodies. You title
Speaker 3: the last chapter the end for now, and you talk
Speaker 3: about Wayne Chapman in Bridgewater, but you really talk about
Speaker 3: the desire for you to face Wayne Chapman face to face.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately it didn't bear the type of fruit that
Speaker 4: you think about. But I had read a book by
Speaker 4: a guy named James Renner, who's one of my favorite
Speaker 4: true crime authors, and he had written a book about
Speaker 4: disappearance of a girl that he had went to school
Speaker 4: with named Amy Mahalovich, and he had chased down this
Speaker 4: guy to flow. You know, the details I don't remember
Speaker 4: one hundred percent now, but you know, it kind of
Speaker 4: struck a chord with me. And I told myself, if
Speaker 4: I ever get the chance to see Chapman and talk
Speaker 4: to him, I'll try and do it. And you know,
Speaker 4: I'll spare you the details. But anyway, I tried to
Speaker 4: do it, and we did. We did get face to face,
Speaker 4: and I just told him, you know, I'm gonna use
Speaker 4: I just thought to myself, I'm gonna use a ruse.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna tell him like, you know, hey, uh, I'm
Speaker 4: gonna tell him like they found Paglici's DNA at the hospital,
Speaker 4: you know, and they didn't know that. And and when
Speaker 4: I told him that, you know, I kind of leaned
Speaker 4: in and told him, uh, you know, and.
Speaker 2: Again I describe it in the book.
Speaker 4: You know, I've been around a lot of bad people,
Speaker 4: you know, I've been around Caliban and al Qaeda and
Speaker 4: Hakhani network terrorists in Afghanistan, and I've been around I've
Speaker 4: worked on death row Dan, I've worked on juvenile boot camps.
Speaker 4: I've worked all over and been with a lot of
Speaker 4: bad people, and I've never seen you know, Chapman was
Speaker 4: like a reptile.
Speaker 2: He wasn't even like a human being. You know, he
Speaker 2: just sort of lived like a like a.
Speaker 4: Crocodile, just just he's just there to eat, and he
Speaker 4: really doesn't care about you know, there's no ability to feel,
Speaker 4: you know, and there's there's people like that when you
Speaker 4: come across them, you know it, you know.
Speaker 2: And and I told him that, and he didn't have
Speaker 2: much of it.
Speaker 4: He just simply told me, I've never met Andy Puglici,
Speaker 4: and I've never and I don't even you know.
Speaker 2: He basically told me, I don't know much about the case.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 4: And and I said, you're going to live with that,
Speaker 4: that denial for your entire life, huh. And then he
Speaker 4: and then we were all kind of pushed apart from
Speaker 4: each other. And you know, at that time, I wasn't
Speaker 4: really doing well mentally, you know. You know, Frankly, Dan,
Speaker 4: it's these when I talked about James Cameron, the Great
Speaker 4: Falls Detective. I think at some point he just kind
Speaker 4: of it just overtakes you, and he kind of just
Speaker 4: he gave up on taking care of himself. And you know,
Speaker 4: and I don't mean brushing his teeth in the morning.
Speaker 4: I mean like basic things. I mean like, hey man,
Speaker 4: you got to eat where, you gotta freaking you gotta
Speaker 4: go to bed, you got to have a night out
Speaker 4: with your wife. You know, you got to do stuff
Speaker 4: other than worry about this freaking crazy people on the streets,
Speaker 4: you know, And that's kind of where I was at
Speaker 4: that time. Am I saying that's a good idea?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: Am I encouraging other investigators and authors to do the same.
Speaker 4: Absolutely not, But at the time that's I thought that
Speaker 4: was a good idea. And you know, as a forty
Speaker 4: year old man now who's a little bit smarter and
Speaker 4: a little bit you know, more seasoned, I don't I
Speaker 4: wouldn't do that, but it's what I chose to do.
Speaker 3: Then you talk about John Cameron and the toll that
Speaker 3: it had on him, sticking to this investigation and trying
Speaker 3: to nail Nathaniel bar Jonah for far more than he
Speaker 3: had already been nailed for. You talk about al Mins
Speaker 3: taking things very very seriously, and of course yourself and
Speaker 3: this book title obsessed. Is that what you meant by
Speaker 3: the title obsessed?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's could have been, frankly the only title for
Speaker 4: this book, you know, and it is definitely an obsession.
Speaker 4: You know, everybody kind of has their thing. And Dan,
Speaker 4: you've written a true crime book, you know, you there's
Speaker 4: no such thing as writing a book or doing an investigation.
Speaker 4: Half asked or excuse my language, or or with one
Speaker 4: foot in you're diving in that water and you're immersing yourself.
Speaker 2: You know, you're living it, you're breathing it, you're eating it.
Speaker 4: You're talking to people who were involved in it, you're
Speaker 4: talking to victims, you're talking to families.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: In the new book, I write a chapter called Unmasked.
Speaker 4: You know, if I could just speak on this, Dan,
Speaker 4: I don't know if it was going to be a question,
Speaker 4: but I think it's the most important part of the
Speaker 4: new book. Is there was a boy who disappeared, four
Speaker 4: year old boy named Andrew Motto in the town of.
Speaker 2: Webster, Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: And this happened in nineteen seventy eight, so Wayne Chapman
Speaker 4: and Barjona and Pearce were already locked away and they
Speaker 4: couldn't have hurt any more children. But when I started
Speaker 4: researching the case, I found a lot of fodder online
Speaker 4: that Nathaniel Barjona was the one who abducted little Andrew Motto,
Speaker 4: and the police had tied it to him, and basically,
Speaker 4: you know, it was just a faded complete that Barjona
Speaker 4: was the one who did it. And you know, I
Speaker 4: knew that that could not have been true because Barjona
Speaker 4: was already long gone, as I said, So you know,
Speaker 4: I set out to sort of correct that misinformation. And
Speaker 4: you know, the town of Webster is pretty close to
Speaker 4: where I live. It's easy for me to get there,
Speaker 4: and so you know, I just started looking into that case.
Speaker 2: And what I.
Speaker 4: Found was there was actually a man in nineteen ninety
Speaker 4: nine in the town of Burval, Rhode Island, which is
Speaker 4: the next time and over from Webster, different state, but
Speaker 4: that's New England geography. You're one foot in mass you're
Speaker 4: one foot in Connecticut, and you don't have to really
Speaker 4: go too far. You know, we're all kind of close
Speaker 4: to each other. So when I started looking into it,
Speaker 4: I noticed that, you know, a man had actually confessed
Speaker 4: on his deathbed to abducting Andrew and burying his body
Speaker 4: behind his house on a need some power lines in
Speaker 4: a very rural area of Rhode Island in Burrowville. But
Speaker 4: that man's name was never released. And between nineteen ninety
Speaker 4: nine and the time that I produced this book in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty two and now this new book here in
Speaker 4: twenty four I scoured death record Dan. I must have
Speaker 4: spent a year in my life in the town of
Speaker 4: Webster in Burrowville, Rhode Island. Looking through online obituaries, I
Speaker 4: knew that this man had died of cancer, and you know,
Speaker 4: I spent so much time just trying to get somebody
Speaker 4: who fit that death, who could have died of cancer
Speaker 4: and could have been alive. In nineteen seventy eight, when
Speaker 4: Andrew I disappeared, and I actually went on a YouTube
Speaker 4: show about a year and a half ago, a live show,
Speaker 4: and I had discussed how, you know this has been
Speaker 4: fuddled me. I had never been able to get this
Speaker 4: man's name, and Dan, you know, the power of the Internet.
Speaker 4: Within an hour, the man's daughter was in my inbox
Speaker 4: explaining to me that, you know, not just you know
Speaker 4: sometimes when you're in the public sphere and I know,
Speaker 4: you know this dand people come out of the woodwork,
Speaker 4: and then maybe they're not credible and you get to
Speaker 4: kind of sift through that. But immediately she offered me
Speaker 4: photo evidence of her father's house being dug looking for
Speaker 4: Andrew's body. You know, we unmasked that man in this
Speaker 4: in this book. You know, it's a real loose end
Speaker 4: that's tied up in a disappearance of another young boy
Speaker 4: in the state of Massachusetts, and just how it happened
Speaker 4: and why it happened. And you know, I'll give you
Speaker 4: another one, Dan, This boy, the clothes that he was
Speaker 4: wearing ended up sixty miles away in the town of Wooburn,
Speaker 4: which is right next door to the town of Wakefield,
Speaker 4: and also a very short drive from the town of Revere. Right,
Speaker 4: I mean, they're all sort of right there. So how
Speaker 4: did that happen? There's so many mysteries there. And again
Speaker 4: it's this book, more than anything, is a period piece, Dan.
Speaker 4: This is what happened between these years. Here's where the
Speaker 4: men that were involved, and how the hell did we
Speaker 4: let it all happen? And how don't people know about it?
Speaker 4: That's what it is.
Speaker 3: In this incredible investigation. You walk the streets where these
Speaker 3: young victims walked. You try to get in the head
Speaker 3: of the offenders. You speculated, you looked at inferences, You
Speaker 3: study the material, the codes, the letters of the correspondence.
Speaker 3: You looked at everything, and you vow in the end
Speaker 3: of this book to continue and to never stop looking.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean I don't think it's I think when
Speaker 4: you when you write, ye, now, two books on a
Speaker 4: specific period of time and specific crimes with specific families.
Speaker 4: It's very hot. You're always tied to that, you know.
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot more to be known. You know,
Speaker 4: new things have come to light. You know, on the
Speaker 4: night Andy Piglici disappeared, just think of this, witness came
Speaker 4: forward now and it said and now again, you know,
Speaker 4: we've all kind of done this a long time and
Speaker 4: probably know that people come forward and the human memory
Speaker 4: is faulty, and sure it's not always you can't take
Speaker 4: what everybody says at face value, right, you just can't.
Speaker 4: And unfortunately that's just the way it is. Nobody gets
Speaker 4: convicted on witness statements. It's you need evidence too, and
Speaker 4: you know, but someone did come forward on the night
Speaker 4: that Peglici disappeared and said that a police officer from
Speaker 4: the town of Lawrence and a marked vehicle was struggling
Speaker 4: with a young boy trying to get him in to
Speaker 4: his police car. And this was located in the Project
Speaker 4: housing project where Andy Perglici lived. Chasing that thread to ground,
Speaker 4: what we uncovered was there was a school resource officer
Speaker 4: from the town of Lawrence who was caught after Andy
Speaker 4: Polici disappeared with another young boy in his vehicle and
Speaker 4: was fired from the force, and it admitted to sexually
Speaker 4: abusing that boy from that school. And that was the
Speaker 4: same exact area that Andy Poglici lived in. So there's
Speaker 4: was certainly at least one predator located on the Lawrence
Speaker 4: Police Department at the time that Andy Pivli disappeared, And
Speaker 4: that offers some other alternative thoughts to maybe what happened
Speaker 4: that night. Me to that day now, I'm still utterly
Speaker 4: convinced that Japman was the perpetrator. He said so himself
Speaker 4: multiple times, But there's more to be known about what
Speaker 4: exactly was going on in that town at that time,
Speaker 4: and that's the type of material that keeps me looking
Speaker 4: into this harder. And you know, I don't think I'll
Speaker 4: ever stop until I hear of some task force being
Speaker 4: set up to investigate what exactly happened in the seventies more.
Speaker 4: I think that'll be the day that I finally say,
Speaker 4: you know what, David's time to move on to a
Speaker 4: new story.
Speaker 2: But I still haven't really found that validation.
Speaker 3: Dan, Yes, incredible. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 3: for coming on and talking about your extraordinary book, Obsessed,
Speaker 3: A Survivor's Quest to find Justice for the Lost Boys
Speaker 3: of New England. For those that might want to find
Speaker 3: out more information about this book, can you tell us
Speaker 3: about a website or any social media that you do.
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, I'm really not on Twitter, but you can
Speaker 4: find me. You can find me directly at Dave dot
Speaker 4: McGrath substack dot com. Just type in David McGrath. You
Speaker 4: can message me there, email me there, read all my
Speaker 4: writing there, specifically on this case and specifically many other
Speaker 4: cases that I'm interested in. I try to update it
Speaker 4: least twice a week. You can find me there, and
Speaker 4: of course the book is everywhere. A kindle great audio
Speaker 4: version of the book coming on for those of you
Speaker 4: know nowadays like to listen to audio. I think the
Speaker 4: narrator is excellent and the story kind of really unfolds
Speaker 4: like a drama. And I'm really it's my first audio
Speaker 4: book and I'm really proud of the way it turned out.
Speaker 3: Dan, Oh, great, sounds great. Thank you so much David
Speaker 3: McGrath for coming on and talking about Obsessed, a Survivor's
Speaker 3: Quest to find Justice for the Lost Boys of New England.
Speaker 2: Thanks Dan, Thanks to all your listeners talk soon.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, good night,