WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Geesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:32.719 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:40.079 Good Evening. 8 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:44.679 In the tranquil towns of New England during the nineteen seventies, 9 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:49.079 a sinister mystery unfolded when several boys vanished without a 10 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:54.280 trace and the community's piece was shattered. With law enforcement 11 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:58.159 stymied in its search for answers. Whispers of a possible 12 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:02.880 serial killer surfaced, especially after one boy's body was found 13 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:08.000 years after his disappearance, but what happened to the others 14 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:14.079 remained a heart wrenching puzzle. In twenty thirteen, author David 15 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:17.840 mc grath, a former host on the Law Enforcement Today 16 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:23.200 Network and an investigator with a relentless drive for justice, 17 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:27.359 watched the documentary about the cold case investigation regarding the 18 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:32.480 missing boys. Himself a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and 19 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:35.519 active in his community with the sex abuse therapy group, 20 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:40.879 McGrath was struck by the number of unanswered questions in 21 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:47.680 the documentary. What followed, beginning in January twenty fourteen, was 22 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:50.319 a five year quest to find the answers to this 23 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:56.599 child abduction and murder mystery. Traveling all over the United States, 24 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.519 he uncovered a labyrinth of dark secrets just beneath the 25 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:05.120 surface and unknown to most residents of the Biccolic communities 26 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:11.039 from which the boys disappeared. Haunted by his own past, 27 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:14.680 he had to navigate these dark waters if he wanted 28 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:19.000 to bring truth and justice to the victims and their families. 29 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:24.319 The book that we're featuring this evening is Obsessed, A 30 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:27.719 Survivor's Quest to Find the Lost Boys of New England, 31 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:35.400 with my special guest, private investigator, writer and author David McGrath. 32 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:38.639 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 33 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:40.800 for this interview. David McGrath. 34 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:42.800 Thank you so much. 35 00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:45.439 Dan, so glad to be back, and I appreciate you 36 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:47.120 allowing me to come on for the second time to 37 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:48.039 talk about the new book. 38 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:48.840 I really appreciate it. 39 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:53.120 Man, Thank you so much and congratulations on this new book, Obsessed, 40 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.520 A Survivor's Quest to find Justice for the Lost Boys 41 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.919 of New England. You just mentioned that, let's talk about 42 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:03.680 the first version of this book or when you first 43 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:06.840 tackled some of this subject matter. Tell us about Monster, 44 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.560 and then tell us about the genesis of this book obsessed. 45 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:11.719 Thank you Dan. 46 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:16.599 When I wrote Monster, I had about six hundred and 47 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:21.560 fifty pages of handwritten notes over multiple notebooks. 48 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.759 And I didn't want to write you know, Warren. 49 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.000 First of all, I had no idea that you know, 50 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:31.280 when you write a book about child murder and child 51 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:34.319 rape and pedophiles, you know, you're starting to think about like, 52 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:37.080 what kind of audience would actually pick this up, you know, never, 53 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:39.280 so you have that going against you right away, and 54 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:42.159 then you have the idea of the book being, you know, 55 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:44.080 the true crime version of Warren Peace. 56 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:46.000 So I didn't want it to be that. 57 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.919 So I always kind of had an idea that two 58 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:52.599 books would be. I would have The Monster, the first book, 59 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:55.680 which really just kind of chronicles the life and crimes 60 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:00.919 of one man, in particular Wayne Chapman, with sprinkling in 61 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:04.319 of some of his cohorts like bar Jona and Charles Pearce, 62 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.199 and the new updated book was going to be more 63 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:12.759 of you know, these other child murders that happened around 64 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:16.360 the time that Chapman and Barjona and Pierce were active, 65 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:21.920 and updates on where they've all gone since I published 66 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.399 in twenty twenty two. And you know, when you publish 67 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.920 a book and you do podcasts like yours, which have 68 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.279 tremendous reach, people are going to come to you with 69 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.040 new information and you're going to have to vet that information, 70 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:37.839 chase it down, reinterview people, maybe interview some people that 71 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:39.759 you know are very close to it, like I did. 72 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:41.600 And that's really what the new book is. 73 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:45.079 It's a continuation of Monster, but also, hey, this is 74 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:46.000 what I've found out in. 75 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:47.040 The last two years. 76 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:49.680 Here's some loopholes that I've been able to close, and 77 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.240 I've even named more names now and certain murders that 78 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:54.959 people are going to remember from the first book. 79 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:56.600 So that's what the new book is. 80 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:59.439 And Monster was, you know, the original book was just 81 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:03.199 get as much as the information that I've compiled over 82 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:05.920 seven years out, get it out of my head and 83 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:09.560 into a book that's coherent so people can digest it 84 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:13.720 and understand what exactly happened from say, nineteen seventy four 85 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:16.639 to nineteen seventy seven here in this region. 86 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:21.600 Dam now tell us the states that are primarily involved 87 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:22.600 in this story. 88 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:27.800 Well, you start obviously with Massachusetts, primarily the Boston area, 89 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:30.839 Providence Rhode Island, which is just about a thirty minute 90 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:32.839 drive ninety five cells from Boston. 91 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:35.879 You have a missing person two missing boys. 92 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.120 In the state of Maine, which is a couple hour 93 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.720 drive north. Still in the New England region, you have Connecticut, 94 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.399 where multiple girls went missing in the nineteen seventies and 95 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:47.480 were tied to some of these men. And you have 96 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:50.839 other states too. You have Virginia, you have Ohio, you 97 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:53.959 have Upstate New York. Obviously it's more just like an 98 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:56.879 Eastern Seaboard type of thing, But primarily I focus on 99 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:59.959 the New England region, the sixth states in New England 100 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:00.879 minus New Hampshire. 101 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:01.079 Dan. 102 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:05.959 For audience that did not hear about Wayne Chapman, tell 103 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:09.240 us a little bit about Wayne Chapman before we get 104 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.959 into some of the other heroic and not soil heroic 105 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:14.360 characters in this story. 106 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.720 Well, Wayne Chapman was a pedophile, a totally fixated child 107 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.480 predator who was born and raised in upstate New York 108 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:27.439 and around early nineteen seventy two. Somehow, some way, Wayne 109 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:30.240 Chapman ended up living in the Providence, Rhode Island area. 110 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:31.879 And for those of you who read the first book, 111 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.759 you know I was theorized that the reason why Chapman 112 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:41.680 ended up in Providence was because it was the at 113 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:46.240 the time, it was the hub of child pornography production, sales, 114 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:48.240 distribution of the. 115 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:50.560 Entire United States. And it certainly was. 116 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:53.639 I mean, there's FBI files dating back to the late 117 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:59.680 nineteen sixties, specifically around mob boss Roy DeMeo, who worked 118 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.279 in the out of New York, who they picked up 119 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:04.560 cables of him speaking. 120 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.199 On wiretap saying that he's selling his. 121 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:11.160 Child pornography distribution business down to Providence to Raymond patriarcha 122 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:16.120 who ran the Providence wing of the organized crime. So 123 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:21.720 the mob was heavily involved in the production and distribution 124 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:24.959 selling of child pornography here in Providence, and I believe 125 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:28.360 that's how a young Wayne Chapman came to Providence. Now, 126 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:31.600 a man who lived in upstate New York had been 127 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:34.319 committing crimes his entire life. He had already been in 128 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:38.000 prison for molesting young boys in the states of Pennsylvania, 129 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.120 in New York and even crossed over the border. He 130 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:43.720 wrote a fair amount and talked a fair amount of 131 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:45.639 how he crossed over the border in New York into 132 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:49.560 places like Montreal and Toronto and had been indulging in 133 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:54.480 the underground sex industry there, specifically around children in the 134 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.800 late nineteen sixties and early nineteen seventies. And you know, 135 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:00.519 I always theorized that you know, did he did? 136 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:01.079 He did? 137 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.120 He just simply wake up in the morning and throw 138 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:05.600 darts at maps and end up in Providence, Rhode Island. 139 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:08.759 It's just you know, six hours away. How did that happen? 140 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.279 And how it happened is these men who peddled porn 141 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:17.240 here in Providence where I live, needed low level foot 142 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.160 soldiers to go out there and produce it. And that's 143 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:23.160 how Wayne Chapman ended up here. And that's how it 144 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:25.759 came to be that a lot of these boys went missing, 145 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.120 because what was happening is they were simply just doing 146 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.480 what all pedophiles do. They were getting in positions where 147 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:33.159 they could have some sort of power over children. They 148 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:35.480 were making up fake four H clubs, which here in 149 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:39.399 America are sort of like these boy scout clubs where 150 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:42.200 you know, underprivileged, underserved children can kind of go and 151 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.840 have like a big brother type of situation. You know, 152 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:46.960 they can take them out and you know, take them 153 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.000 to sporting events and out fishing and things like that. 154 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.919 And I've interviewed, you know, scores of Chapman victims who 155 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.919 were part of those fake four age clubs where Chapman 156 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.919 would basically just make flyers and put them out around 157 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:01.440 and say, hey, you know, this is the kind of 158 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:04.279 club that I that I'm in, this is what I do, 159 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:06.639 and I can take care of your children. And parents 160 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:08.720 were handing them over to him. And what he was 161 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:12.360 doing is he was separating them from their social groups, 162 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.360 their families, and he was out there always with camera 163 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.600 in hand, you know, performing sort of sexual acts with 164 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.080 these children and selling them when he was caught. Dan, 165 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:23.960 this is a guy who worked at as a janitor 166 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:26.679 making three fifty an hour. He had state of the 167 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:29.399 art camera equipment in his apartment in Providence. He had 168 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:31.960 a dark room. Think about that. Think about what that 169 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:34.759 would have cost in the early in the mid nineteen 170 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:37.000 seventies for a guy making three dollars and fifty cents 171 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.360 an hour, who had already been in prison, who simply 172 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:41.799 had a high school education, He had no job. He 173 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.320 was not a successful man by any measure. What it 174 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:48.240 was was he was well funded. And that's how that's 175 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:52.320 that was the to give you your listeners the scent 176 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:55.320 of what it was like here at that time. The 177 00:09:55.799 --> 00:10:00.519 mob was heavily, heavily involved. It was a million dollar 178 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.440 industry even at that time in the nineteen seventies, and 179 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.759 guys like Chapman and his ilk were were their jobs 180 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:09.480 was to get out there and produce it. 181 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:10.879 And that's what he was doing. 182 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:15.480 Now they even go even darker than the child porn, 183 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:24.200 not allegations, the child porn evidence. You take us to Brockton, Massachusetts, 184 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:30.320 and one of the boys missing is David John louise On, 185 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:36.120 and so tell us about this, the events or the 186 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:41.759 circumstances surrounding his being missing, and how you introduce a 187 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:45.200 important character, Detective Frank Gentile. 188 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:49.600 Well, Chapman was very mobile. He had an old converted 189 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:52.440 bread truck, and he ended up in multiple different towns 190 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:53.600 across Massachusetts. 191 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:56.840 How I'll never know. I just he had sort of 192 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:57.559 some sort of. 193 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:01.159 In in all these different towns cross Massachusetts, which is 194 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:02.559 a prevailing thing in this book. 195 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:04.799 And in Brockton. 196 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.240 He ended up being in Brockton one day and finding 197 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:12.000 David Lewison. I don't know if Chapman set out to 198 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:14.799 kill Lewison. I think, as always he was setting out to, 199 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:17.840 you know, get a boy to where he could kind 200 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.720 of get him alone, so he could take pictures and 201 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:23.559 then of course, you know, hand them over to his 202 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:26.039 masters so they could be produced. But every once in 203 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.799 a while, unfortunately, of all the victims that Chapman had 204 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:31.440 sexual abuse victims, some of them turned up missing. And 205 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:35.720 however that happened, I'm not sure, but David Lewison goes 206 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.519 missing in nineteen seventy four in April, if I remember correctly, 207 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:43.039 and his father was a mayoral candidate. He was a 208 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:45.039 very you know, he was a man that was well 209 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:46.960 known in the town of Brockton. He had just ran 210 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:49.960 for mayor and actually lost, but he was still had 211 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:53.519 a prestigious law firm in town. And after Dave went missing, 212 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:56.399 the Brockton police got together and you know, they focus 213 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.000 hard on you know, perhaps it was a former client 214 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.320 of his father's, or maybe somebody who didn't agree with 215 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:08.360 his politics in town. And Frank Genteel, who was a 216 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.399 sergeant on the Brockton Police department, he was a detective, 217 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:17.159 always thought that the hallmarks of the Lewison thing disappearance 218 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:20.600 was had a lot of hallmarks of a stranger coming 219 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:23.879 into town and taken Lewis in. And there had been 220 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.840 other cases of little boys missing. There was one much 221 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:30.240 later after this that really rocked that town. It was 222 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.399 nothing new. It's a low income area. It's sort of 223 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:36.559 a town that's known to be tough in the state 224 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.480 and Lewison. The trail went cold on Lewison for years. 225 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:46.120 There was just no There was no real, real good suspects, 226 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:49.480 There was no real leads. One of his little friends 227 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.600 had mentioned something about a black man maybe named Africa, 228 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.440 and I went into that rabbit hole a lot in 229 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:59.519 the book. It wasn't until nineteen seventy six where Chapman 230 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:02.759 was pulled over on the New York State Thruway. And 231 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:07.360 you know, I detail the vehicle pullover in as much 232 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.440 detail as I possibly could. You know, Chapman was pulled 233 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:13.320 over and you know, there was child pornography all over 234 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:17.360 his dashboard. They found reels and reels of child pornography. 235 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:20.159 In the back of his truck. They found hand drawn 236 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:24.559 maps of different towns, including Lawrence, Massachusetts, where Andy Paglisi 237 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:28.120 would later go missing Rockton towns like that, and they 238 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:32.200 eventually pulled him in and interviewed him regarding the lewis 239 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:34.799 In case because they realized that they had a real 240 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:37.399 child predator on their hands, and they wanted to talk 241 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.080 to him about every missing boy case that was anywhere 242 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:43.200 close to where Chapman had been. And as it turns 243 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.000 out Chapman's they had basically gone through his garbage and 244 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:50.679 they had found receipts from the town of Brockton gas 245 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:55.159 receipts around that time, and Chapman had admitted multiple occasions 246 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.120 that he was the one who took David Lewison and 247 00:13:58.159 --> 00:13:59.639 then recanted his confession. 248 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.120 How far do you want to go with it? Dan here? 249 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:05.600 But eventually, in nineteen eighty they did end up finding 250 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:08.960 David Lewison's body. It was in the bottom of a 251 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.399 home that was being basically put under construction. 252 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:13.919 It was being renovated. 253 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.600 It was one of those multifamily apartment buildings where you 254 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.600 know there are nine rooms I believe if I remember right, 255 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:24.960 and a young boy had basically found him and named 256 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.240 David o'meira. And there's a lot of discussion that maybe 257 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.080 o'meira was also a Chapman victim, maybe somebody who. 258 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.399 Was being groomed in the book. 259 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:38.360 In both books, both versions of the books, I really 260 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:42.799 kind of pour over how David Lewison's body was come 261 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:46.720 to be found. Frank Genteel had no luck, you know, 262 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.840 the sort of the entire town of Brockton has no 263 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:54.240 real understanding of how Lewison's body was found and how 264 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:56.559 they were led to it. Was it simply just you know, 265 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.600 happenstance that this young boy fell upon the body or 266 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:03.919 did he know something, And it's just one of those things, 267 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.000 really strange things that happen in crime cases. 268 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:07.039 Dan, I don't know. 269 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:11.440 I've researched the ownership history of that home for years 270 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:13.600 and years to see if there's anybody in that house 271 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.720 who was connected to Wayne Chapman, and I just could 272 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.919 never find it. And unfortunately, David o'meier committed suicide years 273 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:22.919 later and was the victim of child of sexual abuse. 274 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:26.600 So there's there's it's a real mystery, and you know, 275 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:28.799 the only silver lining I would say is that David 276 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:30.960 Lewison's family at least were able to lay their son 277 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.759 to rest, and his father has a place to visit 278 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:36.600 him before his death, but no real answers there in 279 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:37.720 the Brocton case. 280 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:43.320 That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, 281 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:49.879 this book is a product of years of your particular exhaustive, 282 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:55.759 incredible investigation and which you term you coin as obsessed, 283 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.879 basically the title of this book. But this exhaustive investigation. 284 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:07.519 Also in this book feature heroic people, dedicated detectives like 285 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:13.399 Detective al Mints. So introduce Detective al Mints and his 286 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:15.480 interactions with Wayne Chapman. 287 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.279 Yeah, I mean, look, Detective Mints was a guy who 288 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.200 was in the Here in Rhode Island, we have a 289 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.960 massive navy presence in Newport and a lot of men 290 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.120 come in from out of town. And al Mins was 291 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:30.759 a Florida guy who was about to end his Navy 292 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.720 career in Newport and was simply driving around in Providence 293 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:37.200 and saw a Providence police recruitment poster and said, you know, 294 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:39.240 maybe I'll stay in town and join the police force. 295 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.120 And he does in nineteen sixty eight. What al Mince 296 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:44.279 didn't know is that he was in the middle of 297 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.080 the most corrupt town in New England, maybe in the 298 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:48.720 entire country. 299 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:49.720 Dan I mean that and. 300 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:53.039 Think about the ground that covers with Las Vegas, Chicago, Philadelphia, 301 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:53.720 places like that. 302 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:57.039 There is no corruption like Providence corruptions. 303 00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:01.080 So Mins Joins becomes a sex crime detective pretty quickly 304 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:05.839 after four years. What happens was that traffic stop happens 305 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:08.599 in nineteen seventy six. Chapman's pulled out of the vehicle. 306 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.160 They find thousands of pictures of young boys, the reels 307 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:15.599 the child pornography, and the New York State Police at 308 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.480 that time, in nineteen seventy six put out a teletype 309 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.680 with the pictures and they say, if you recognize any 310 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:23.519 of these kids, can you please give us a call? 311 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.119 And this is across the country. Now there's pictures of 312 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.559 these young boys in Alaska and they're trying to figure out, 313 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:33.000 can you guys help us with these victims. Alman's just 314 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:35.640 sitting at his desk and he sees a picture of 315 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:38.759 a boy taken at the Roger Williams State Park here 316 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.359 in Providence. Now I bring my kids there often. There's 317 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.079 a statue in the middle of the park with a 318 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:47.920 gigantic dog. You can't miss it. It's been there for years. 319 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:50.920 Mint sees that recognizes it. And says, oh, I got 320 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.599 a victim. One of these kids is in Providence. He 321 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:55.920 grabs a picture, he heads out. He gets the guy's name. 322 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:59.200 He realized that Wayne Chapman lives in his neighborhood in Providence, 323 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.640 an area that he put trolls. He heads over to 324 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:05.319 Wayne Chapman's house. He talks to the kids in the neighborhood. 325 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.200 You know, they tell him that, you know, they use 326 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:11.400 language I won't use here, but they basically said, yeah, 327 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:14.200 we know the guy's gay and he's got a dark 328 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.759 room up in his house. So Mince goes through is trash. 329 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.279 He finds receipts from Brockton, he finds receipts from southern 330 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.240 Rhode Island. He finds him from Lawrence, and he knows 331 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.640 that there's a missing boy just weeks prior to that 332 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:33.920 named Andy Peglisi in the town of Lawrence and request 333 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:39.720 an interview with Wayne Chapman. So Mince heads up to 334 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:44.240 New York Interviews. Chapman gets him to confess to the 335 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.000 disappearance of Lewison and Andy. 336 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.000 Paglisi, the Lawrence boy. 337 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:50.359 Now, I should back up a little bit and let 338 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:53.920 people know that in August of nineteen seventy six, a 339 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:57.119 little boy went missing in the town of Lawrence, Massachusetts, 340 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.960 from the Higgins Memorial Pool. They had brought Green Berets 341 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.079 out from the ten Special Forces Group, who is located 342 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.240 for Devn's. They had done a massive search for this boy. 343 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:08.559 It was the biggest story in the state for about 344 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:11.079 a week. The police came out and said that he's 345 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:15.559 probably with a family member, and the media attention died 346 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:17.799 down because people believe that, Okay, he is with a 347 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:23.039 family member, he'll be returned safe. The story basically dies 348 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:28.160 for a few weeks. Wayne Chapman is found in possession 349 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:33.680 of the boys sock at that traffic stop, and Albert Mintz, 350 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.400 you know, questions Chapman. He gets them under sodium pentathal eventually, 351 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.599 which is a sort of a truth serum, which is 352 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:44.759 obviously an investigative technique that would never be used today, 353 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:47.839 but we're talking about nineteen seventy six here. He gets 354 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:52.519 him to confess to both murders disappearances, and then Chapman 355 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.039 of course recant, So that's why he was never indicted 356 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:58.200 for any of these. Mints really connected well with Chapman. 357 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.119 You know, I've interviewed al scores of times. He's still 358 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:06.319 alive and well living in Jacksonville, Florida. And you know, 359 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.559 he always just appealed to Chapman's good sense in the 360 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:13.440 sense of, you know, the town of Providence was mob run, 361 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:17.400 and he made sure to make the point to Chapman that, hey, listen, 362 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:19.559 you're abusing a bunch of little Italian boys. How do 363 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.440 you think that's gonna go over when you're in prison? 364 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.200 And Chapman agreed that I probably wasn't gonna go over 365 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:27.960 too well for him, and he got him to agree 366 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.680 to confess to a lot of things. And then you know, eventually, unfortunately, 367 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:35.640 whether it be through council or discussing it with other inmates, 368 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.759 Chapman recanted all of his confessions. And there was just 369 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:43.720 never enough evidence saved to be able to put in 370 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:46.799 front of a grand jury to indict Wayne Chapman for 371 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.000 those two murders that he almost certainly did. 372 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:52.319 There's no one else but him that could have done it. 373 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.160 And just to finish up on Mints, you know, the 374 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.759 town of Providence, like I said, is the most career uptown. 375 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:01.440 In the United States. 376 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.200 And I'll give you the perfect example regarding Mints, a 377 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:08.200 few years later after this, and Alice told me this, 378 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:10.599 these stories himself, These come straight from him. 379 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:11.519 It's not hearsay. 380 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.119 There was a shop that was located across the street 381 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.400 from the Providence Police Department main headquarters here on Westminster 382 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:23.279 Street in Providence, and they were selling child pornography out 383 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:27.960 of a storefront and Albert Mintz came in and said, 384 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.559 you know, hey, listen, we got to shut this down. 385 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.720 This is obviously we can't do this as against the law. 386 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.599 We're going to have to shut down this store. And 387 00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:39.839 within forty minutes of getting back to his office, his 388 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.119 lieutenant had called him in and basically told them, listen, 389 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.279 you're not gonna You're not going to bul over the 390 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:49.119 pornography business in this town. You're just not going to 391 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.960 do it. And that's when Albert mints quit. That's why 392 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.880 his career only lasted eight years on the Providence Police Department. 393 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.400 And to this day, dan the city of Providence is 394 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:00.000 ran by the adult entertainment industry. 395 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:01.400 Nothing has changed. 396 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:05.559 It has the most adult nightclubs per capita of resident 397 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:10.960 of any city in the United States, and most adult bookstores. 398 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.079 And it all started in the nineteen seventies. Right there 399 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:16.160 at that time, and it still remains to this day 400 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:18.880 the biggest point of the economy at that time. The 401 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.559