Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to SOS Stories of Survivors. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Serena Dansker, and it is my absolute pleasure and honor
Speaker 1: to welcome Donna Paloma. She is the founder of Jane
Speaker 1: Joe No More. Today you are going to talk about
Speaker 1: advocacy for women who have been sexually assaulted. But more
Speaker 1: than that, Donna has turned people pain into an amazing
Speaker 1: platform where people can share their journeys. And she's going
Speaker 1: to talk to us about this movement and how she's
Speaker 1: given survivors a voice and their dignity and a place
Speaker 1: where they can feel comfortable talking about their experience. So,
Speaker 1: without further ado, please join me in welcoming Donna.
Speaker 2: Thank you Donna for coming.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Serena for having me. It really
Speaker 3: is my pleasure.
Speaker 1: I would love to just dive right in and ask
Speaker 1: you to share a little bit about your life before
Speaker 1: everything changed and what was normal for you back then.
Speaker 3: Okay, so life right before the incident was nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3: My husband and I were married for twelve years. At
Speaker 3: the time, we had two little ones, my daughter are
Speaker 3: first born and our son, and life was very busy.
Speaker 3: I was as a partner in a marketing agency. My
Speaker 3: husband was busy, busy in his family business with his
Speaker 3: three brothers, but life truly centered around the children, and
Speaker 3: life was good.
Speaker 1: Wow, and you know, and so survivors often describe a
Speaker 1: moment as a dividing line, the moment of the trauma
Speaker 1: that takes place, and for you, can you take us?
Speaker 1: I mean, are you okay talking about that?
Speaker 3: Of course, yes, of course I'm very open about what happened.
Speaker 3: So it was actually September eleventh, nineteen ninety three. My
Speaker 3: husband was away for the very first time in our marriage.
Speaker 3: And it was a Friday night the night before when
Speaker 3: I had gone to work the day before and my
Speaker 3: children had gone to school. I picked them up. We
Speaker 3: went out to children's concert and then out for pizza,
Speaker 3: and came home around nine o'clock. We were all exhausted.
Speaker 3: Tucked them in, said their prayers, and I was fast asleep.
Speaker 3: And the next thing I remember, I heard footsteps. And
Speaker 3: we lived in a two story colonial with woodstairs, and
Speaker 3: I immediately became concerned. It didn't sound like little children's
Speaker 3: of bare feet, like one of them coming to join
Speaker 3: me in our bedroom. And I was sleeping in my
Speaker 3: stomach and I looked up and a shadowy figure, a
Speaker 3: man with a covering over his head, entered the bedroom,
Speaker 3: and I had very little time to react.
Speaker 2: I screamed.
Speaker 3: He covered my mouth, cranked my arm behind my back,
Speaker 3: and said, if you don't cooperate, you're going to get hurt.
Speaker 3: And then I was coming to my senses and realized
Speaker 3: if I screamed, the children were the ones that would hear. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so I stayed quiet. He put a pillowcase over my head,
Speaker 3: bound my eyes, and tied my arm my wrists behind
Speaker 3: my back, so I was completely bound. And he cut
Speaker 3: my clothing and he raped me, and he flipped me
Speaker 3: back over, and at one point I felt the cylinder
Speaker 3: the barrel of a gun in my mouth, and he
Speaker 3: said he threatened me, and I saw my life flash
Speaker 3: before my eyes, and I thought this was it, and
Speaker 3: I pictured my children finding me. The next morning, he
Speaker 3: moved the gun to my temple and said, and I said,
Speaker 3: out loud, I mean, I thought this was it. And
Speaker 3: I said out loud to God, please absolve me of
Speaker 3: all my sins. And I waited, and finally he actually
Speaker 3: flip me back over and put the gun in my
Speaker 3: back and said, if you call the pigs. His words,
Speaker 3: I'm going to come back and kill you. And it
Speaker 3: was at that moment that I realized he might let
Speaker 3: me limp and I did anything I could to will
Speaker 3: him down those stairs. I said, listen, I'll never tell
Speaker 3: a soul. This is between you and me. I could
Speaker 3: never identify you, and miraculously I heard him walk down
Speaker 3: the stairs.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And of course my first thoughts were off my children.
Speaker 3: I could not get to them quick enough, but I
Speaker 3: was disoriented. On the bed, I was still bound. I
Speaker 3: was able to break free from the ties. I slipped
Speaker 3: one hand through and took the pillowcase off and ran down,
Speaker 3: and both of my children were untouched. And honestly, Serena,
Speaker 3: I just knelt down and sobbed and thank God. And
Speaker 3: what I felt in that moment was gratitude. Gratitude that
Speaker 3: I had survived and my children were just precious and
Speaker 3: just untouched. And I knew in that moment that we
Speaker 3: would be okay. I bought my goodness. This horrific thing happened,
Speaker 3: but I was able to survive that and the children
Speaker 3: were untouched. That was the best of a very awful situation.
Speaker 1: Wow, how fortunate that was that he actually just left.
Speaker 2: He came, got what he needed and just left.
Speaker 1: And your kids were okay exactly.
Speaker 3: It was something I could never have dreamed of. It
Speaker 3: was like, you know, your worst nightmare. I was in
Speaker 3: shock and the children were okay. So now I wanted
Speaker 3: to get help. He had cut the phone line, so
Speaker 3: I had to run to a neighbor's. This was nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety three.
Speaker 1: I didn't have an hel phone, of course.
Speaker 3: So I was like, oh my gosh, I can't have
Speaker 3: no way of communicating with outside world. So I had to.
Speaker 3: I made a really tough decision to leave my children,
Speaker 3: but was the only way to get help. I made
Speaker 3: sure they were still fine. They were settled in night right.
Speaker 3: It was in the middle of the night. It was
Speaker 3: like the wee hours of the morning. It was like
Speaker 3: two o'clock or something like that. Ran to a neighbor's.
Speaker 3: He took one look at me. I still had nylons
Speaker 3: hanging from my neck, and he's like, what happened. I said,
Speaker 3: John's not home. I've been attacked. The kids are up there.
Speaker 3: I'm frightened, And I said the perpetrator told me not
Speaker 3: to call the police.
Speaker 2: He'd kill me.
Speaker 3: The neighbor immediately picked up the phone dial nine to
Speaker 3: one one. He went up to the house to protect
Speaker 3: the children, and he stayed in front of the house
Speaker 3: until the police arrived, just to have someone be there,
Speaker 3: and I told the police what happened. A police officer
Speaker 3: met me there before that, I was able to use
Speaker 3: the working phone at my neighbors to call family and
Speaker 3: they said, we'll be right over. And the officer there,
Speaker 3: I was following him. He asked me if I had
Speaker 3: a key. I said, yes, here it is, and I
Speaker 3: was following him and he said I had to stay there,
Speaker 3: and I said, please, my children are up at the
Speaker 3: house by themselves. I don't want them to be frightened.
Speaker 3: Can I please come with you? He said, no, you
Speaker 3: need to wait here, and I obeyed. No one came
Speaker 3: for me, Serena. The separation anxiety was off the charts.
Speaker 3: I finally I grabbed a knife from the drawer in
Speaker 3: my neighbor's home and ran back up by myself, and
Speaker 3: it was like five houses away. Right by the time
Speaker 3: I got there, I saw siren, the lights, police lights
Speaker 3: that were there, and officers were on the scene. Family
Speaker 3: members starteds who arrived. I was just by that time like,
Speaker 3: so drained and just my only thoughts were.
Speaker 2: On the fi.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you were in shop too, I can imagine that. Yes,
Speaker 3: And so I was able to go. They let me
Speaker 3: roam freely, as they let other family members roam freely.
Speaker 3: And I checked the kids and they remained asleep. It
Speaker 3: was a mee, a miracle. But I thought I had
Speaker 3: done everything right. That night I went to the hospital.
Speaker 3: By that time, my eye was throbbing. Turned out I
Speaker 3: had a scratched cornea. My eye was patched, there were
Speaker 3: lacerations on my wrists that were noted, and a sex
Speaker 3: crimes kit was conducted and DNA for the perpetrator was found,
Speaker 3: And yeah, it was. It was just it was hard
Speaker 3: to even explain what that night.
Speaker 1: Was, like, Wow, that's just crazy. And your husband. Were
Speaker 1: you able to reach him and let him know what happened?
Speaker 3: I did not want to. He was out of state
Speaker 3: in Colorado at a friend's wedding. We had all planned
Speaker 3: to go, but for some for because of business reasons,
Speaker 3: I couldn't go. So at any rate, I had told
Speaker 3: his brothers. I said, we're not going to tell John
Speaker 3: until he comes home. What good could it do for
Speaker 3: him to know? This a thousand miles away, and then,
Speaker 3: you know, have to deal with that without anyone to
Speaker 3: comfort him and let him know that I'm okay and
Speaker 3: the kids are fine. And so we broke the news
Speaker 3: to him the next day, and needless to say, he
Speaker 3: was devastated. He he's a kind of guy that you
Speaker 3: you know, you would imagine a good family man and
Speaker 3: protective and he could not imagine that the one time
Speaker 3: he was away that someone would come and do harm
Speaker 3: to his family. But I was pulling my family through this.
Speaker 3: I am a strong person with a strong faith, and
Speaker 3: I said, John, I'm okay. I am really, I'm okay.
Speaker 3: I was back to work within a few days. And
Speaker 3: you know, of course you lived differently. We had dead
Speaker 3: bolts and alarms installed, and of course it was very
Speaker 3: difficult for me to sleep in that house and the
Speaker 3: sounds and all of that. But I was getting through,
Speaker 3: and I literally was pulling my family through. When one
Speaker 3: month after the crime, the lieutenant in that was handling
Speaker 3: my case put me in a small interrogation room at
Speaker 3: the police department and sat me down. He had a
Speaker 3: tape recorder on his desk. Back then, it was real
Speaker 3: to reel and He pressed play and record, took out
Speaker 3: a little white piece of paper and began reading me
Speaker 3: my Miranda rights. What Yeah, you have the right to ream.
Speaker 3: I looked at him and I said, what are you doing?
Speaker 3: He said, this is the way I'm going to handle it.
Speaker 3: I said handle what? What are you talking about? He said,
Speaker 3: why don't you tell me what really happened that night?
Speaker 3: And I looked at him and I said, I told
Speaker 3: the police that were there that night. I told you
Speaker 3: everything I could possibly remember from that night. And he
Speaker 3: went on and on, and of course, had I known
Speaker 3: then what I know now, I would never have taken
Speaker 3: that revictimization, that emotional trauma heaped up on me over
Speaker 3: and over. But I did no better. And I sat
Speaker 3: there for an hour while he told me he had
Speaker 3: rock solid evidence that I purposefully lied to the police
Speaker 3: and that I had to come clean. He told me
Speaker 3: I had everything to lose, and he held up his hand.
Speaker 3: He said, your children, your husband, your career, your reputation.
Speaker 3: Unless you tell me right now what happened. Oh my god,
Speaker 3: it was, I said. I begged him. I said, please,
Speaker 3: I've done nothing but tell the truth. We have countless
Speaker 3: interviews and photographs that proved you were lying. I said,
Speaker 3: show them to me. I can explain anything, all to
Speaker 3: no avail. Finally, at the end, I was crying and
Speaker 3: I looked at him and I said, what could you
Speaker 3: be thinking of doing this to me? He looked at
Speaker 3: his watch and said, I'm thinking of what I'm going
Speaker 3: to have for lunch.
Speaker 2: What estard?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean really it was.
Speaker 3: I thought I was in an alternate reality. I'm like,
Speaker 3: this cannot be real. And at the end, when I
Speaker 3: had nothing left to say, I was just sitting there
Speaker 3: and afraid he was going to arrest me. He said
Speaker 3: to me, I'll tell you what. I will let you
Speaker 3: leave under the condition that you come back here this afternoon.
Speaker 3: You tell me what really happened. This tape goes in
Speaker 3: the desk and I close the case, or I will
Speaker 3: find you. I will arrest you, and your picture will
Speaker 3: be in tomorrow's paper. I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: I didn't know what to do, and I left there
Speaker 3: feeling worse. He said to me, I have twenty seven
Speaker 3: cases on my desk, and one way or another, this
Speaker 3: case is getting closed today.
Speaker 4: Wow, oh my.
Speaker 2: Gosh, that's crazy.
Speaker 3: It was absolutely crazy. I was thrown into a world
Speaker 3: I knew absolutely nothing about. I was always raised is to,
Speaker 3: you know, have the utmost respect for law enforcement, that
Speaker 3: they're there to protect and serve, and they're there to
Speaker 3: help you in your time of need. And it was
Speaker 3: just incredibly damaging and devastating. I could remember it was
Speaker 3: in October, like we're in October now. It was an
Speaker 3: October day and I had a light raincoat on. I
Speaker 3: went to my parents' house and I could not I
Speaker 3: was in such a state I couldn't even remove my coat.
Speaker 3: And my husband and my father went to that police
Speaker 3: station and demanded to see this lieutenant. They were told
Speaker 3: her story is full of holes, and yes there is
Speaker 3: the threat of her arrest, so that we're just as
Speaker 3: don't found it. We're like, what is going on?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: So truly that is what started at all. Serena and
Speaker 3: I had to really learn so much much more about
Speaker 3: what types of stigmas are associated with these types of crimes.
Speaker 3: And I was devastated for a long time. I couldn't
Speaker 3: eat or sleep. I couldn't believe that not only that
Speaker 3: the horrific night had happened, that an armed mass intruder
Speaker 3: broke into our home, but then that the police were
Speaker 3: attacking this lieutenant attacked me. We reported it to his
Speaker 3: superior all to no avail. We actually had to get
Speaker 3: legal help. We demanded that an internal affairs investigation be conducted,
Speaker 3: which was a joke. It took a year and it
Speaker 3: came back congratulating the officers on a thorough investigation. It
Speaker 3: was the only thing he was reprimanded for was he
Speaker 3: was unable to produce a working copy of the tape
Speaker 3: because apparently he set it to the wrong switch and
Speaker 3: it didn't record.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, seriously.
Speaker 3: It's just it's just nuts. And so we our attorney,
Speaker 3: I said, we can't let this ride like this, because
Speaker 3: what I learned during that time was that most victims
Speaker 3: are under the age of twenty one, and you know,
Speaker 3: most don't report, and you could.
Speaker 1: See because you're afraid that you're going to be blamed
Speaker 1: for you. I mean, look, I grew up in the
Speaker 1: eighties and and girls that were victim of victims of
Speaker 1: sexual assault or abuse or rab or any of this
Speaker 1: that was like, well, you were wearing really short shorts
Speaker 1: or what were you wearing, or what did you do?
Speaker 2: How did you look at that guy?
Speaker 1: Did you ask for it, and so we were always
Speaker 1: taught you don't say anything because you're going to be
Speaker 1: the one that's going to be in the newspaper.
Speaker 3: And it's so ridiculous, the victim blaming. It's still true
Speaker 3: to this day in many cases, and that's why most
Speaker 3: victims don't report. And of course, you know, I learned
Speaker 3: that most victims are under the age of twenty one
Speaker 3: and that they're suffering and devastating silence because of this,
Speaker 3: and it's just so incredibly harmful. So we decided to
Speaker 3: sue law enforcement. Good I had nothing but the truth
Speaker 3: on my side, and my attorney was wonderful. She has
Speaker 3: since passed away, but she was like, Donna, this is
Speaker 3: going to be very difficult when you sue law enforcement.
Speaker 3: You went back sue the city, the entire city, because
Speaker 3: they're city employees. It took seven years to go to trial. Wow,
Speaker 3: sven years. They tried to stop me at every turn,
Speaker 3: But in that time I reached out to the best
Speaker 3: and the brightest people that I knew. I reached out
Speaker 3: to doctor Henry Lee, who resampled the DNA in my
Speaker 3: case because I didn't trust anything at that point that
Speaker 3: they had, and I actually created a twelve point list
Speaker 3: of things that need to occur in crimes like this
Speaker 3: and the actions that should be taken by first responders
Speaker 3: law enforcement. And the first one is that every victim
Speaker 3: should be treated with dignity and respect. Absolutely, that is
Speaker 3: just so critically important. And to know the training that
Speaker 3: needs to occur, which these officers were supposedly trained they
Speaker 3: headed up the sexual crimes unit. It was it was
Speaker 3: incredible to me so to be trauma informed, to understand
Speaker 3: that no victim of a trauma like this is going
Speaker 3: to act in a way that you can predict. Some
Speaker 3: may be quiet, some might be screaming, some might be hysterical,
Speaker 3: and that does not mean that they're not truthful, and
Speaker 3: so helping them put their preconceived notions aside at any rate.
Speaker 3: After seven years, we finally did go to trial, and
Speaker 3: it was a month long trial. These officers all covered
Speaker 3: for one another impact one of the most devastating things.
Speaker 3: One officer on the scene that night wrote in his report,
Speaker 3: She's wearing the nylons around her neck and wrist as
Speaker 3: if they were a stage prop. I had nylons that
Speaker 3: I had been bound with on my wrist and neck,
Speaker 3: and I didn't even realize I had them on. But
Speaker 3: when I had them on, when I ran to my neighbors.
Speaker 3: At the neighbors, when I talked to the officer there
Speaker 3: on the call, he said, do not wash, do not
Speaker 3: remove anything, and.
Speaker 2: I said and everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I simply did what I was told. They thought
Speaker 3: it was odd that on that call, when I was
Speaker 3: talking about the perpetrator, I said, the gentleman that did
Speaker 3: this to me, I use the word I'm I was
Speaker 3: an executive in marketing, that I'm a business professional, and
Speaker 3: I'm in a state of shock. So I'm just there's
Speaker 3: scrutinizing everything I did and said and the way I looked.
Speaker 3: It was absolutely insane. But aficer after officer testified until
Speaker 3: finally doctor Henry Lee took the stand and he testified
Speaker 3: about the proper handling of a crime scene, how the
Speaker 3: entire perimeter of the home should have been cordoned off,
Speaker 3: and how fingerprints and photographs should have been taken, none
Speaker 3: of which were done. And then doctor David Johnson, who
Speaker 3: I saw treatment from at Yale Post Traumatic Stress Center,
Speaker 3: talked about the fact that I was a strong person
Speaker 3: and that I was back to work and well on
Speaker 3: my way to healing. And that second attack at the
Speaker 3: Waterbury Police Department by that lieutenant a place where I
Speaker 3: was I thought was another safe harbor, just like your
Speaker 3: home and when you're in your bed. And that second
Speaker 3: attack was in many ways more damaging than the rape itself.
Speaker 3: And then Neil O'Leary, who was in law enforcement at
Speaker 3: the Waterbury Police Department, the same department with these other men,
Speaker 3: took the stand and he testified he was raising in
Speaker 3: the ranks. I believe he was deputy chief at the time,
Speaker 3: and he said there was not one shred of evidence
Speaker 3: to prove I had done anything but tell the truth.
Speaker 3: And these officers were found negligent.
Speaker 1: And that is unbelievable that they actually found them negligence.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it truly is. After all that that they were
Speaker 3: found negligent. It was the beginning of an amazing turnaround
Speaker 3: of events, and Neil O'Leary became chief of police. And
Speaker 3: this was in two thousand and one. The trial ended
Speaker 3: in two thousand and one. In two thousand and four,
Speaker 3: now we knew the perpetrator was out there. This happened
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three and eleven years we had no
Speaker 3: idea who he was. In two thousand and four, a
Speaker 3: man in our community attacked a coworker and he attempted
Speaker 3: to sexually assault her. She was able to break free,
Speaker 3: but he was going to be arrested for unlawful restraint
Speaker 3: in that case, and Chief O'Leary asked the man, John Reagan,
Speaker 3: for a voluntary DNA sample, and he swab of saliva
Speaker 3: was taken and we would find out later two months
Speaker 3: later it was a perfect match to the DNA in
Speaker 3: my case.
Speaker 2: Wow, how lucky was that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was, it was. It was unbelievable, but it was.
Speaker 3: His name was John is John Reagan. He is. He
Speaker 3: was thought to be a happily married, church going father
Speaker 3: of three who had grown up with my husband since
Speaker 3: kinder garden ball together in high school. We had gone
Speaker 3: to each other's weddings. The betrayal my poor husband. I mean,
Speaker 3: it was unthinkable that this man did this.
Speaker 1: He was knew you, he knew where you lived.
Speaker 3: And yes, yes, and it just was so shocking. But
Speaker 3: here we had irrefutable DNA evidence. It was no longer
Speaker 3: he said, it was irrefutable. I would have never in
Speaker 3: a million years dreamed it could have been him, and
Speaker 3: he couldn't be arrested for rape because of a statute
Speaker 3: of limitations that had run out five years prior. Oh
Speaker 3: my god, yep, So he was arrested for kidnapping because
Speaker 3: that had no statute and it was going to be
Speaker 3: difficult to prove. He came from a wealthy family. He
Speaker 3: was a board of the best attorneys that money could buy.
Speaker 3: He was out unbonded three hundred and fifty thousand dollars
Speaker 3: bond for one year while we awaited trial. I didn't
Speaker 3: know if my husband was going to find him and
Speaker 3: kill him, or if he John Reagan would find me
Speaker 3: and kill me, as he threatened to multiple times that night,
Speaker 3: and so it was a really scary time. We never
Speaker 3: made it to trial because John Reacan crossed state lines
Speaker 3: and went to Sarah Togas Springs High School parking lot
Speaker 3: seeking his next victim, which was a seventeen year old
Speaker 3: girl who was leaving track practice and he had parked
Speaker 3: his van right next to her car. She it was
Speaker 3: parked so close that she had to kind of shimmy
Speaker 3: to get to her driver door. He opened the sliding
Speaker 3: door of his van and grabbed her around the torso
Speaker 3: in the mouth and tried to pull her into his van,
Speaker 3: but thankfully Lindsay is strong. She kicked and screamed, and
Speaker 3: she broke free. Shut up, don't tell anyone. And he
Speaker 3: got back in his van very calmly and started driving,
Speaker 3: but the coaches heard her cries. One of them jumped
Speaker 3: in his car. John Reagan was already now on the
Speaker 3: streets of Saratoga, but the coach found him and pulled
Speaker 3: him over. The police and Lindsay identified him. The van
Speaker 3: was taken into into evidence, and the back seat had
Speaker 3: been pulled out. There was a tarp, a noos, a sedative,
Speaker 3: a syringe, a picture of me, pictures of the coworker,
Speaker 3: pictures of women he had been stalking in Connecticut and
Speaker 3: New York without their knowledge. That is what it finally
Speaker 3: took to put him behind bars.
Speaker 2: God, thank god.
Speaker 3: I mean, Lindsey, Oh my gosh. And she's doing so good.
Speaker 3: She's a mom of five or six children. Now, I mean,
Speaker 3: it's just it's a miracle that the way it all happened, truly, gosh,
Speaker 3: it was just incredible. That's incredible.
Speaker 1: It is, that's incredible that And but he was a
Speaker 1: serial rapist, yes, yes, and oh my gosh, and to
Speaker 1: know then to your your husband, to know him, and yeah,
Speaker 1: and that that's that's that's balls.
Speaker 2: I really got to say that.
Speaker 3: I know, it is, it is, it is, it's it's
Speaker 3: unbelievable that he could do something like this. He's obviously
Speaker 3: a very mentally ill individual, and we're so happy that
Speaker 3: he is. He's not able to harm anyone else.
Speaker 2: Thank God for that.
Speaker 1: Now you are you are a strong woman, Donna, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, but I I know that not every day
Speaker 1: is easy to get through. And and because you're you
Speaker 1: are so strong, I'm sure you are trying to help
Speaker 1: your husband deal with the fact of Can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we are married forty four years and
Speaker 3: now I guess next next week, so it's a long
Speaker 3: long time and we both love and respect each other
Speaker 3: so much, and we heal very differently. I obviously it
Speaker 3: started Jane, don't know more. I'm very open about sharing,
Speaker 3: and my husband is it's very difficult for him to
Speaker 3: hear the story, to talk about to talk about it.
Speaker 3: You know that my story aired on Dateline a couple
Speaker 3: of times and he was interviewed, and that that took
Speaker 3: so much out of him. But he knew it was
Speaker 3: important to help others to upstand about these crimes, and
Speaker 3: he did it for me, and I'm so grateful. But yeah,
Speaker 3: we're totally different in the way that we heal, but
Speaker 3: we respect and love each other very much and we
Speaker 3: have a very strong marriage. So I'm very grateful.
Speaker 1: And it's like, and yeah, you're strong in areas that
Speaker 1: he's not in the strong in areas that you're not.
Speaker 1: That's that's like my husband and I. That's that's it's
Speaker 1: good to be that way.
Speaker 3: I guess it is. It is, it really is. And
Speaker 3: you know, our children are grown now and they are
Speaker 3: doing so well, and that brings us joy. You know
Speaker 3: what is that saying you're only as happy as you know?
Speaker 2: And I know happy child? Right?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And so at any rate, you know, I just after
Speaker 3: that journey, I just had to do something I could
Speaker 3: easily spiral downward, but I wanted to take that energy
Speaker 3: and do I never even thought about these types of
Speaker 3: crimes until it happens, you know. I mean, it's an
Speaker 3: ugly topic. Who wants to think or talk about that?
Speaker 3: But I learned so much and we have to normalize
Speaker 3: the conversation around this. In order to prevent these crimes
Speaker 3: from happening, in order to let other victims who are
Speaker 3: trying to grow to be survivors know that they're not
Speaker 3: alone and they're not to blame. They shouldn't bear the
Speaker 3: shame that unfortunately society often heaps on them. And so
Speaker 3: I had to do more. And my husband, you know,
Speaker 3: let me. You know, he supports Jane Do No More,
Speaker 3: but he does it from afar. He can't be there
Speaker 3: when I do my speaking or anything like that. But
Speaker 3: that's okay, you know, because he knows that we're helping people.
Speaker 3: And that's what's the most important thing.
Speaker 1: That is so amazing that you went from personal survival
Speaker 1: and getting through everything you went through to public advocacy
Speaker 1: and so what was the spark that led you to
Speaker 1: create Chane Do No More.
Speaker 3: It was the experience and the crazy things that happened,
Speaker 3: like the fact that you know, there's DNA evidence and
Speaker 3: he can't be arrested for the crime he committed. So
Speaker 3: the first year that I started Jane Do No More,
Speaker 3: I went to Hartford to advocate and I talked to
Speaker 3: legislates lats and explain that our laws need to keep
Speaker 3: up with the science that is now available and that
Speaker 3: this is irrefutable evidence. And I'm so happy to say that.
Speaker 3: In two thousand and seven, M. Jody Rell, the governor
Speaker 3: at the time, Governor Reil, came to the Waterbury Police Department,
Speaker 3: the very building where I was revictimized, and with me
Speaker 3: by her side, she signed into law the removal of
Speaker 3: the Statute of limitations on sex crimes with DNA and Connecticut.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's amazing. I'm getting theery from it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a great, great day, and it's a
Speaker 3: great thing for survivors from two thousand and seven going
Speaker 3: forward here in Connecticut. It wasn't retroactive, but I can
Speaker 3: tell you that, by some miracle, John Reagan finished his
Speaker 3: sentence in New York State. He was supposed to finish
Speaker 3: it in Connecticut, but he finished it in New York
Speaker 3: State early, which initially I was like, so I couldn't
Speaker 3: believe he was getting out. However, New York has something
Speaker 3: called civil Management Law, which Connecticut does not have, and
Speaker 3: it's for the worst of the worst offenders. Probably only
Speaker 3: three percent fall in this category that even though they
Speaker 3: have finished their sentence, if they can be held, if
Speaker 3: a jury there's a trial and if they are found
Speaker 3: to have a mental abnormality and likely to reoffend if
Speaker 3: they're set free. And that's exactly we went through that
Speaker 3: process and during COVID, I actually testified at the trial,
Speaker 3: and other victims were found, several of us testified, and
Speaker 3: a jury of twelve her testimony from survivors, testimony from
Speaker 3: medical professionals, and they determined that, in fact, he did
Speaker 3: have a mental abnormality and if he were to be released,
Speaker 3: he would likely reoffend. And so he's confined in that
Speaker 3: system to this day.
Speaker 2: Thank god.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's what they need. I mean, he should
Speaker 1: not be set free. That's a monster, right, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And thankfully the jury recognized that, you know this,
Speaker 3: this man would be a danger if he were let out.
Speaker 3: And so I'm very grateful to New York State for
Speaker 3: that law. I'm grateful to the jurors who and you know,
Speaker 3: everyone who did in those brave victims who testify to So.
Speaker 1: Wow, So let's talk about the name Jane don do more. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what does that symbolize for you?
Speaker 3: So, Jane Doe and even the logo, the Jane Doe
Speaker 3: is typewriter type, if you would the Jane and then
Speaker 3: the no more is in script. It's actually my handwriting
Speaker 3: because I was Jane Doe in newspapers and medical reports,
Speaker 3: and that's typical with sex crime victims. But it also
Speaker 3: I can understand, it shields them. They have anonymity. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, people that read about these types
Speaker 3: of things, they read Jane Doe. It's a faceless, nameless
Speaker 3: victim that they cannot relate to. And and hence no more.
Speaker 3: I should not have to hide my identity. I have
Speaker 3: done nothing wrong, and you know, just having gone through
Speaker 3: what I did, I wanted to say no more, no
Speaker 3: more blame, no more shame, no more fear.
Speaker 1: So you are a badass. I love it so amazing.
Speaker 1: You are blazing trails.
Speaker 3: So I'm trying. I'm trying, but we have an amazing team, Serena.
Speaker 3: You know, I started out I started Jay No No
Speaker 3: More to improve the way society responds to victims of
Speaker 3: sexual crimes, because I knew how how crazy it is
Speaker 3: that you not only you know you have you you're
Speaker 3: a victim of a crime, but then you have to
Speaker 3: fight your way and overcome all these barriers just for
Speaker 3: people to believe you and take you seriously. So so
Speaker 3: that's how it started out. And I shared my story
Speaker 3: and unbelievable how many others since I've shared my story
Speaker 3: will come forward. And I can't even tell you how
Speaker 3: many older women will just come up to me and
Speaker 3: hold my hand and say, we all have stories. Thank
Speaker 3: you for what you do, and men too. We can't
Speaker 3: forget about the men. And so we started the Survivor's
Speaker 3: Speak program, where survivors of sexual crimes work with professional
Speaker 3: coaches and we help them to articulate their story and
Speaker 3: that many of them just feel empowered and feel like
Speaker 3: they're not alone, and it becomes part of their healing
Speaker 3: process and it's just so inspiring to see and to
Speaker 3: hear them speak and find their voice, and it just
Speaker 3: it's it's incredible. And then we pay it forward by
Speaker 3: educating others in the schools, in the communities. I mean,
Speaker 3: everyone should hear this message, because there's no such thing
Speaker 3: as not in my neighborhood. This is a global epidemic.
Speaker 3: It really is.
Speaker 1: It really does, and you're changing lives. You're bringing awareness
Speaker 1: to something that like mental health issues, people just didn't
Speaker 1: talk about, right, And that's that's amazing. What do you
Speaker 1: I mean you've started this whole nonprofit. You've written a
Speaker 1: book as well, right.
Speaker 3: Yes, I worked with an investigative journalist and William Phelps,
Speaker 3: and we together wrote the book, Jane Do No More.
Speaker 3: He tackles it each chapter from an investigative standpoint, and
Speaker 3: then I put my comments in the at the end
Speaker 3: of each chapter from a victim growing to be a
Speaker 3: survivor's standpoint, and there's oh gosh, I just shared just
Speaker 3: quite a bit, but not there's all kinds of twists
Speaker 3: and turns throughout that even more in the book. And
Speaker 3: it's wonderful because a lot of professors will use it
Speaker 3: as in they're victimology classes, you know, and then I'll
Speaker 3: come in and talk to the class and it's it's
Speaker 3: so cool to to to actually see these these students
Speaker 3: that are interested in becoming law enforcement officers or social
Speaker 3: workers and you know, give helping them to understand the
Speaker 3: trauma of sexual crimes and and how important it is
Speaker 3: as a first responder, as someone who interacts with that
Speaker 3: victim at that point, everything matters your eye contact, your
Speaker 3: body language, the way you speak to them. And we
Speaker 3: used to say start by believing, but for you know,
Speaker 3: law enforcement, I get it. They have to get the
Speaker 3: facts and everything. But at least start by supporting. Even
Speaker 3: if you have questions in your mind, like oh, that
Speaker 3: doesn't sound right, do not make it appear that way.
Speaker 3: You know, start by supporting and look and look that
Speaker 3: victim in the eye. Build a trusting relationship, and it's
Speaker 3: only going to benefit you because they're going to be
Speaker 3: more forthcoming. So if you can build that trust, they
Speaker 3: will remember things more and they will work with you
Speaker 3: to hopefully solve that case.
Speaker 1: That's that's incredible. Now that's from the law enforcement standpoint.
Speaker 1: Now what about like high school students or young people?
Speaker 1: How do we protect them more, educate them more on that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it needs to be done cautiously and
Speaker 3: it needs to be an age appropriate language. But we
Speaker 3: have a few programs. We have something called Safety for Me,
Speaker 3: which we partner with Drew Serrano and East Coast Training Systems,
Speaker 3: and we've been partner since two thousand and nine. The
Speaker 3: Safety for Me program is fairly new for us. It's
Speaker 3: we want to start in the earlier grades and this
Speaker 3: is for ages five through eleven where we talk to them.
Speaker 3: It's a shorter program, but we talked to them about
Speaker 3: using your power voice, about trusting your gut, how you
Speaker 3: know if something just doesn't seem right, and you know,
Speaker 3: about how how to be aware if someone approaches you,
Speaker 3: because these these perpetrators are so manipulative, you know, they
Speaker 3: they you know they lure you with with them present.
Speaker 2: Yes, you see all of that on TV.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's crazy out there. So we you know,
Speaker 3: again we're walking that fine line. We don't want to
Speaker 3: scare them, but we want to prepare them and alert
Speaker 3: them and you know, to stay you know, within groups
Speaker 3: and all those kind of safety things. And then we
Speaker 3: have something called our Safe Student Initiative, which begins in
Speaker 3: middle school and we do it all the way through college,
Speaker 3: talking to students getting them to engage in crucial conversations
Speaker 3: about healthy relationships, about in the older grades, about consent
Speaker 3: and you know, rape culture, and how you can be
Speaker 3: a part of changing things, and how you can actually
Speaker 3: become an active bystander if you see something, how to
Speaker 3: to intervene safely, like you can delegate, you can go
Speaker 3: find you know, some person of authority and say, you know,
Speaker 3: I think something's happening over there. How do how we
Speaker 3: can all work together to create a safer world and
Speaker 3: look out for one another.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be something?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: We need more of that serena. We need We can't
Speaker 3: rely on others. We have to work. The good people
Speaker 3: have to stand up and really work together to create
Speaker 3: meaningful change.
Speaker 2: You do.
Speaker 1: I remember when my kids were little, we sing a
Speaker 1: song called you know, hey, don't touch me there.
Speaker 2: This is my no no square.
Speaker 3: Yeah oh I never heard that one, but yeah, no.
Speaker 3: We absolutely talk about you know, safe touch and unsafe
Speaker 3: touch and the bathing suit area. We really need to
Speaker 3: instill this in these kids because unfortunately, and this is
Speaker 3: just reality of the survivors who have gone through our program,
Speaker 3: our Survivors Speak Program, there's over seventy of us now.
Speaker 3: Most are victims of child sexual abuse in the home
Speaker 3: by someone they loved and trusted, and you know, for
Speaker 3: so many it's like, how could that be? It is
Speaker 3: and many of our men that in our on our
Speaker 3: team are victims of child sexual abuse by a person
Speaker 3: and authority. A Catechism teacher, you know, it just.
Speaker 1: Boised out something exactly, or even a teacher in a
Speaker 1: school a lot of times.
Speaker 3: Teachers in every profession there there are, unfortunately, these perpetrators.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. So how do you support survivors and
Speaker 1: reclaiming their voices and their identities? And I know we
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about that, how how you have
Speaker 1: them go through coaches and things like that, But how
Speaker 1: can we get the public to I guess better understand.
Speaker 1: How about survivors and their healing?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know. Our website No No More
Speaker 3: dot org is full of different resources and there's blogs
Speaker 3: that are written by survivors. There's podcasts that we do
Speaker 3: on our Voice to Change monthly podcasts, And it's just
Speaker 3: it's so important because these crimes I believe are the
Speaker 3: most misunderstood and therefore underreported. So we have to do
Speaker 3: this for others to understand. Until it happened to me,
Speaker 3: I did not understand. So I don't blame people for
Speaker 3: not understanding. But I'd liken it to breast cancer years
Speaker 3: ago if you wouldn't remember. But Betty Ford, first Lady
Speaker 3: Betty Ford, came forward years decades ago and she said
Speaker 3: she had breast cancer. At the time, believe it or not,
Speaker 3: you can say breast cancer. It was a woman's issue.
Speaker 3: You couldn't say breast You couldn't say breast cancer. And
Speaker 3: people were a gas that were like, oh, why is
Speaker 3: she doing that? But she wanted to come forward, expose this,
Speaker 3: that this happened. And think about that she was a pioneer.
Speaker 3: She was a trailblazer. And think about now in October,
Speaker 3: which is Breast Cancer Awareness Month, everything is lit up
Speaker 3: in pink. More importantly, think about early detection and the
Speaker 3: lives saved because we're talking about it, because we're doing
Speaker 3: something about it. Well, Jane do No Moore has set
Speaker 3: up to do that same thing about sexual crimes, to
Speaker 3: talk about it, to help others to understand it can
Speaker 3: happen to anyone. It can happen to you or your
Speaker 3: loved one, and we need to do more to prevent it.
Speaker 3: We also do self defense classes for women and girls
Speaker 3: and all of our programs are at no costs. This
Speaker 3: self defense program is amazing. It's with Drew Surrana, who
Speaker 3: I mentioned before. We have over six thousand women and
Speaker 3: girls have gone through our self defense program. It's a
Speaker 3: four hour free class. There's an education component and then
Speaker 3: there's a physical component and you work with elite trainers
Speaker 3: who are super experienced and you get that one on
Speaker 3: one and it's just it's incredible, it's empowering, and it's
Speaker 3: it's just really important. At mothers and daughters will do
Speaker 3: it together. And again, we do them all over the
Speaker 3: state of Connecticut and they're free of charge, but registration
Speaker 3: is required.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's just amazing.
Speaker 1: And we can find all of this information out on
Speaker 1: the Jane dono More website right.
Speaker 3: Yes, And we're also very active on social media. We
Speaker 3: are on Facebook and Instagram LinkedIn.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1: So I'm sure that there's probably many survivors listening to
Speaker 1: our show today. What would you say directly to them?
Speaker 3: For them? I just want them to know that they
Speaker 3: are not alone, and to please know that there are
Speaker 3: resources and that you do not have you do not
Speaker 3: have to just suffer in silence. We also have a
Speaker 3: Facebook closed group specifically for survivors of sexual crimes. It
Speaker 3: has grown to over five hundred and fifty people across
Speaker 3: the country and it's called JDNM, which is the acronym
Speaker 3: for Jane No No More j DNM survivors and anyone
Speaker 3: who is a survivor, female male can can be part
Speaker 3: of this group if they're so willing. It's a no
Speaker 3: judgment zone and people just reach out to comfort one another,
Speaker 3: to share some tips about, you know, how to get
Speaker 3: through the days on a dark day, what works for them,
Speaker 3: And it's just it's important to feel a part of something,
Speaker 3: because so many of these victims feel alone.
Speaker 1: Right especially, you know, I find a lot of the
Speaker 1: young high school college students who you know, they were
Speaker 1: in a relationship but they said no, or maybe they
Speaker 1: had alcohol or were roofeed or something, and they're trying to.
Speaker 2: Come to terms with that.
Speaker 3: Oh, for sure, it's a very difficult thing to process
Speaker 3: and to come to terms with. And you know, I
Speaker 3: think therapy is also so incredibly important. We are not Jane,
Speaker 3: Do No More is not a crisis counseling organization, but
Speaker 3: there are plenty of therapists and to find that right
Speaker 3: one that will, you know, help you through this because
Speaker 3: you can't do it alone. You really can, and you shouldn't.
Speaker 1: Where do you see the movement heading in the next
Speaker 1: five to ten years.
Speaker 3: Oh, the world is in such a place right now.
Speaker 3: I honestly don't know. But I can tell you that
Speaker 3: there are people that will support and believe victims and
Speaker 3: you can grow to be a survivor. And I am
Speaker 3: still hopeful. I started Jane Do No More as a
Speaker 3: story of hope that you can get suit through some
Speaker 3: awful things and you can find a path forward and
Speaker 3: you can go on to have a wonderful life. And
Speaker 3: by sharing my story, I know that I'm helping others
Speaker 3: and that becomes part of my healing process. So it's
Speaker 3: full circle. And I just want to create a safer
Speaker 3: world for my children and my grandchildren.
Speaker 1: If you had unlimited resources, what's the dream project or
Speaker 1: change you'd bring to the world.
Speaker 3: Well, we actually have a dream project right now. There
Speaker 3: was a musical, a theatrical production that was performed at
Speaker 3: Ridgefield Playhouse in twenty nineteen. It was written by Daniel Levine,
Speaker 3: who is the artistic director at Act of Connecticut in Ridgefield.
Speaker 3: He interviewed survivors on our team, including myself, and wrote
Speaker 3: this beautiful show. And David Friedman, who is a renowned
Speaker 3: music composer, wrote a beautiful song and he donated that
Speaker 3: song and other many many songs that were part of
Speaker 3: this show. We now want to turn this show into
Speaker 3: a film.
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so we actually formed a separate LC which
Speaker 3: is wholly owned by Jane Do No More. The nonprofit
Speaker 3: five oh one C three and we're hoping to We're
Speaker 3: we're getting donations for the film and we're hoping to
Speaker 3: raise enough to be able to film this and that
Speaker 3: way we can showcase it to the world, to show
Speaker 3: our story of hope, that you know that every survivor
Speaker 3: is different and unique, but they can find a path
Speaker 3: so forward.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that there is hope, but that that's what
Speaker 1: we all hold on to, that we have to we
Speaker 1: have to. Oh my gosh, what an amazing story. I'm
Speaker 1: going to lighten it up a little bit now and
Speaker 1: thank you. A little fun questions for you. Maybe what's
Speaker 1: one word that describes you today who you are?
Speaker 3: I guess persistent is a word because you know, I know,
Speaker 3: I've heard know a lot, I've been disbelieved, but I keep,
Speaker 3: you know, one foot in front of the other, and
Speaker 3: I have a strong faith, and so I am persistent
Speaker 3: in this cause because I'm so passionate about it and
Speaker 3: I know that we so much work needs to be done.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to keep one foot in front of
Speaker 3: the other and keep going.
Speaker 1: That's how you get through the storm, right.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1: What's a book or a quote that's carried you through.
Speaker 3: So I was drawn to this statement. It's not so
Speaker 3: much a book or a quote, but it's a statement
Speaker 3: that courage is actually fear hanging on a moment longer.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because so many times I'm like scared today, I'm like,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I can't i can't share this with
Speaker 3: all these people. I can't. And but you just keep going,
Speaker 3: you know, and you just hang on a moment longer.
Speaker 3: And that's where the courage comes in.
Speaker 1: I love that, I might steal that.
Speaker 3: I love you you do.
Speaker 1: Wow, courage is fear hanging on a moment longer.
Speaker 3: And and it's true, so you know, you don't have
Speaker 3: to think, oh wow, they're so brave. No, they have
Speaker 3: fear too, but they were going forward. They're persevering and
Speaker 3: they're determined. And that's what I tried to be.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's you.
Speaker 1: You are how put a song that lifts your spirits
Speaker 1: no matter what's going on.
Speaker 3: So I mean I'm an old soul. So I love
Speaker 3: What a Wonderful World by Louis Armstrong, you know, because
Speaker 3: despite everything, you can always find wonder And you know,
Speaker 3: I have to say we have now three grand babies
Speaker 3: and they're young and They're just so much fun and
Speaker 3: just looking at the world through their eyes and seeing
Speaker 3: them experience things for the first time. It is a
Speaker 3: wonderful world. It really is. When you look at it,
Speaker 3: you know the way you should.
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I am so inspired by you
Speaker 1: your journey. It just it reminds us that from deep
Speaker 1: down comes the greatest strength when you go through some
Speaker 1: of the hardest things. And no survivor has to ever
Speaker 1: remain in silence, nor should they because by sharing our
Speaker 1: stories and building these platforms, we're allowing these voices to
Speaker 1: be heard and to be recognized, and we need to
Speaker 1: tell the world Jane do no more.
Speaker 3: It's just thank you, Serena for helping us share our
Speaker 3: story and our work.
Speaker 1: Real gosh, And I want to just ask one final
Speaker 1: question of you. What legacy do you hope to leave
Speaker 1: four survivors and future generations.
Speaker 3: I hope, I know would love a world that is
Speaker 3: free of sexual assault and rape of child sexual abuse,
Speaker 3: but I know that's probably not likely. But I hope
Speaker 3: that in the future people will be trauma informed and
Speaker 3: will look at survivors and help them on their journey
Speaker 3: so that they can heal because they have hopes and dreams,
Speaker 3: just like each and every one of us, and it
Speaker 3: is up to us as a society to put them
Speaker 3: on that path to healing after such a horrific event.
Speaker 1: So well said, I mean it just beautiful. I always
Speaker 1: end my shows with a poem from my son.
Speaker 2: Scottie, who's passed, and.
Speaker 1: I try and make the poem be related a little
Speaker 1: bit to the story. And this is a hard one
Speaker 1: with him. But he did write a poem about a
Speaker 1: girl that I guess got his heart broken with, and
Speaker 1: it's called Echoes of Regret, and I'd just like to
Speaker 1: share it with you. My brain feels condensed, my feelings
Speaker 1: are compressed, my body is dense. The energy that once
Speaker 1: surged through me refined me, made me me left. Even
Speaker 1: though I know what I did was right, Why it's
Speaker 1: feeling so wrong? Like an effing fraud. She made me
Speaker 1: feel safe and warm. I never wanted anyone more. When
Speaker 1: I had her in my arms, I felt the highest
Speaker 1: I've ever been, the proudest I've ever been. It felt
Speaker 1: as if I was flying, never crying. She took away
Speaker 1: my deepest demons, replaced them with her love and affection.
Speaker 1: But she'd just be giving others the same attention. Now,
Speaker 1: I ain't saying that's wrong. She's so great. I couldn't
Speaker 1: even imagine keeping her all to myself. But she told
Speaker 1: me she wanted me, just me, and she had me.
Speaker 1: I thought I had her, but obviously we didn't have
Speaker 1: the same vision. I see she whit my heart with
Speaker 1: a belt. She couldn't control how she felt, just like
Speaker 1: how ice cream melts. She taught me so much about myself.
Speaker 1: I couldn't be more glad she felt how she felt.
Speaker 1: I will never be more happy I met her and
Speaker 1: won't ever forget her. This is from He was fifteen
Speaker 1: years old when he wrote its, and he died by
Speaker 1: suicide at sixteen years old. And I just I think
Speaker 1: that he had so much inside of him and we
Speaker 1: can all relate to what he was going through. And
Speaker 1: I try and use my platform so that I can
Speaker 1: offer hope to people out there and to our listeners today,
Speaker 1: I just want you to know that if you are
Speaker 1: a survivor sexual assault, there is help out there. Please
Speaker 1: please seek help. You can go to Jane Donomore's website.
Speaker 1: She has a soul much to offer and is just
Speaker 1: an outstanding pillar of the community and trying to make
Speaker 1: a difference, and if you want to support her, please
Speaker 1: go to her website. If you'd like to support our show,
Speaker 1: so SOS Stories of Survivors, please go to Sosradio dot live.
Speaker 1: And please remember that survival sparks the soul. Thank you
Speaker 1: for joining us, and thank you so much Donna for
Speaker 1: being here today.
Speaker 4: Oh thank you. Sh