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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Dck. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, This is your
Speaker 2: host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, the most
Speaker 2: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 2: have written about them. On January eleventh, nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 2: the deputies outside Austin, Texas found the mutilated body laid
Speaker 2: across a cold campfire, head destroyed, hands, cut off, skin
Speaker 2: singed by fire. In less than three days, they had
Speaker 2: the kill zone a small apartment. Shy Christopher Hatton was
Speaker 2: shot at point blank range in his bed. Stephanie Lynn Martin,
Speaker 2: despite her devout Southern Baptist upbringing, was reborn as a
Speaker 2: sultry stripper and calendar girl.
Speaker 4: William M. Busenberg was a good looking wannabe living his
Speaker 4: own lies. They came together in an explosion of violence
Speaker 4: and sex. Then they decided there was only one thing
Speaker 4: missing from their romance murder. But within days they were
Speaker 4: under arrest and savvy prosecutors learned the ugly truth behind
Speaker 4: the senseless slaughter of Bussenberg's friend, How twisted fantasies of
Speaker 4: murder fueled the couple's lust and led to the unspeakable crime,
Speaker 4: and how the truth tried to cover up, how they
Speaker 4: and the and how they both tried to cover up
Speaker 4: their heinous deed until they finally ran out of lies.
Speaker 4: Wages of Sin is the book, were featured this evening,
Speaker 4: and Murder was their turn on with my special guest,
Speaker 4: Susie Spencer. Thank you for a greening to this interview
Speaker 4: and welcome to the program. Susie Spencer, thank you very much.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Now describe for our audience. First, off set
Speaker 4: the setting for this story, the Travis County near Austin, Texas.
Speaker 4: Tell us what this community was really like. Describe it for.
Speaker 3: Us please, Well, Austin's always been considered so called liberal,
Speaker 3: the only liberal city in Texas. We're known for our
Speaker 3: hippies and our politicians and the University of Texas, and
Speaker 3: that's mainly and well in our course, our rock and
Speaker 3: roll music. Right we're considered the live music capital of
Speaker 3: the world, or at least that's the way we promote ourselves.
Speaker 3: I don't know what reality is.
Speaker 4: That, right, Oh, you do certainly have that reputation. Now.
Speaker 4: The question I always ask, because I'm always curious, and
Speaker 4: I think the audience might be too, is why did
Speaker 4: you decide to write about this particular trial, and this
Speaker 4: the case, of course the subject of your book, Wages
Speaker 4: of Sin. Why'd you decide to write this book?
Speaker 3: I think the headlines just got me curious. And I
Speaker 3: always have this thing where if something happens in my
Speaker 3: life to me, that's sort of like the signal that
Speaker 3: I should do this book. And so it was already
Speaker 3: in the back of my head. And then I had
Speaker 3: been considering it. And then I was at the Texas
Speaker 3: Book Festival one day and I looked over at the
Speaker 3: booth that was next to me, because I was standing
Speaker 3: in the Writer's League of Texas booth. Looked over and
Speaker 3: I started talking to the people in the next booth,
Speaker 3: and it ended up that the girl had been a
Speaker 3: waitress at the Yellow Rose Strip club where Stephanie Martin,
Speaker 3: the killer in Wages of Sin, worked, and she said,
Speaker 3: there's this story you should really do, and it was
Speaker 3: Wages of Sin, and I went, oh, my gosh, I've
Speaker 3: been thinking about it, so that was sort of my
Speaker 3: signal to myself that I should do it. And that's why.
Speaker 4: Right well, before we get into Stephanie Lynn Martin, let's
Speaker 4: go to the other subject of your book, or one
Speaker 4: of them is Chris Hatton, and tell us about Chris
Speaker 4: Hatton his early life. What were his parents like, what
Speaker 4: was his upbringing like, where did he grow up? Tell
Speaker 4: us and our audience about Chris Hatton.
Speaker 3: Oh, he's just this drop dead cute Alabama boy that
Speaker 3: charmed everyone in Texas with his southern drawl. Because in
Speaker 3: Texas you might be able to tell with me, we
Speaker 3: have kind of a hard accent. So the southern Alabama
Speaker 3: thing really charmed people here. And the reason he moved
Speaker 3: to Texas was because he, like I say, he grew
Speaker 3: up in Alabama and his father died. They don't really
Speaker 3: know why he died, because he was running a fever
Speaker 3: and it spiked. He became delusional from that, and then
Speaker 3: the police were called into the hospital where the father
Speaker 3: had been taken because of his fever, and the police
Speaker 3: supposedly beat him trying to, you know, get this delusional
Speaker 3: man under control. And a few days later he died,
Speaker 3: so they aren't sure whether he died from the beating
Speaker 3: or from the fever. His mother, who then was left
Speaker 3: taking care of Will and his younger brother Brian, was allegedly,
Speaker 3: you know, an alcoholic with all kinds of issues, and
Speaker 3: so Will I mean, excuse me, will I mean Chris
Speaker 3: kind of went you know, a little bit wild, and
Speaker 3: so he was shipped to his uncle here in Texas,
Speaker 3: who was a police officer actually in the Sheriff's department.
Speaker 3: And so that's how he ended up in Texas, actually
Speaker 3: at round Rock High School where he was a bit
Speaker 3: older than the other students and he was in the
Speaker 3: junior rotc And he had this dream of always being
Speaker 3: a Navy seal, either that or a fashion model, because
Speaker 3: he was again so dad gom cute. I love to
Speaker 3: look at the pictures of him because he was just
Speaker 3: so cute.
Speaker 4: So what did he do about his dream about being
Speaker 4: a Navy seal other than talking about it quite a
Speaker 4: bit with his friends, and throughout his life he's still,
Speaker 4: or least in his young years, he talked about being
Speaker 4: a Navy seal quite a bit of dominated conversations. So
Speaker 4: what did he do towards his dream? Other than the
Speaker 4: rotc about being a Navy seal.
Speaker 3: Well, when he got out of high school, he went
Speaker 3: and joined the navy, but it ended up that it
Speaker 3: wasn't you know, his fantasy. He was more like busy
Speaker 3: swabbing decks the brother and I think painting the ships
Speaker 3: out in San Diego, rather than training to be a
Speaker 3: Navy seal. And part of the problem was that he
Speaker 3: was madly in love with a young woman named Lisa
Speaker 3: Pace who he had met through Junior ROTC and round Rock.
Speaker 3: And so he went a wall one night to go home,
Speaker 3: to fly back to Texas to see Lisa. Allegedly, and
Speaker 3: I don't really know if I buy this story, but
Speaker 3: allegedly he you know, packed up his clothes I think
Speaker 3: in some plastic, jumped off the side of the ship
Speaker 3: and his givies and you know, went to the swim
Speaker 3: to shore, put on his dry clothes, went straight to
Speaker 3: the airport and flew home. And so then he eventually
Speaker 3: got out kicked out of the navy because of that.
Speaker 4: What did Lisa say? When was there any talk of
Speaker 4: what Lisa said to him when she knew that he
Speaker 4: had done he had gone a wall because she had
Speaker 4: an interest in the military or the Navy as well.
Speaker 4: So was there any did did they talk about what
Speaker 4: they had said to each other about this?
Speaker 3: Well, you're going to have to probably refresh my memory
Speaker 3: a little bit here, but if I recall correctly, uh,
Speaker 3: there there was a part of her that was, you know, like, oh, man,
Speaker 3: you know my guy, you know, skipped the Navy for me.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, because she was also military
Speaker 3: or you know, met they had met in junior ORTC
Speaker 3: and she was very responsible in the military, that was
Speaker 3: sort of like, oh my gosh, what have you done?
Speaker 3: So I think she had a bit of mixed emotion
Speaker 3: there about it.
Speaker 4: So now he what happens as a result of him
Speaker 4: going a wall. He gets discharged from the army, Yeah,
Speaker 4: from the Navy, yes, a.
Speaker 3: Pardon and and came back home and was feeling pretty
Speaker 3: much like a screw up, you know, because there was
Speaker 3: a part of him because he also had other problems
Speaker 3: in the Navy that he if I recall correctly, he
Speaker 3: got trouble for driving drunk and stuff like that. Because
Speaker 3: even though he had an image as a sweet little kid,
Speaker 3: you know with his family that they thought, oh he
Speaker 3: never drank or anything, he also had a heavy duty
Speaker 3: party side. So when he came back to Texas feeling
Speaker 3: like a failure that he had blown on his dream,
Speaker 3: you know, the you know, fantasy of modeling isn't one
Speaker 3: you can really pursue. In Austin, he was feeling pretty
Speaker 3: dejected and he and Lisa moved in together, were engaged,
Speaker 3: which they got engaged while they were in the Navy,
Speaker 3: or when he was in the Navy, and but he
Speaker 3: pretty much spent his time at the nightclubs partying and
Speaker 3: then would come home and at the meantime, she's going
Speaker 3: down to San Antonio for her ROTC training, and so
Speaker 3: she's working like a dog, and she's getting a little
Speaker 3: irritated that he's just going out and partying and spending money,
Speaker 3: and I probably, well, let's just go on for there,
Speaker 3: we'll come back.
Speaker 4: Well, the thing is is that they eventually do split up,
Speaker 4: and but it's it's more from the it's from his
Speaker 4: initiative that they do split He moves out of the
Speaker 4: apartment or moves her stuff. What why was there did
Speaker 4: you find the reason why they did finally break up?
Speaker 4: And and who initiated the breakup itself?
Speaker 3: Well that was sort of what I was going from
Speaker 3: the way Lisa talked to me, and she and I
Speaker 3: spent numerous hours sitting at my dining table talking. She's
Speaker 3: kind of bossy, you know, or at least she was
Speaker 3: back then. I don't know what she's like now. I
Speaker 3: don't want to, you know, condemn the person who she's
Speaker 3: out there listening somewhere. But she kind of ruled him.
Speaker 3: She controlled everything, you know, she wanted to control the money,
Speaker 3: the shopping, and so I think it was just he
Speaker 3: was kind of fed up. He wanted to go out
Speaker 3: and enjoy life, be a young man, and so instead
Speaker 3: of being tied down, and you know, he had his
Speaker 3: best buds to go out and party with him.
Speaker 4: Now, what was his character, because there is some contradiction
Speaker 4: in terms of guy that wants to party, But then
Speaker 4: you do talk about his character, at least a lot
Speaker 4: of people talk about his character of him being shy
Speaker 4: and not much of a dream. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it was really interesting because when I was writing
Speaker 3: the book, I felt like I never really got to
Speaker 3: know Chris, and finally I realized why, because he had
Speaker 3: such different images. He had one image with his family
Speaker 3: is the good, clean cut, sort of studious, good boy,
Speaker 3: And then he had this other side of him that
Speaker 3: was going a wall and was going out and drinking
Speaker 3: all the night, you know, every night, and partying in
Speaker 3: country western dancing and getting into fights. So I think
Speaker 3: that's why I felt like I didn't really know him,
Speaker 3: because I wasn't sure he knew who he was. You know, which,
Speaker 3: am I this clean cut kid who's gonna help my
Speaker 3: aunt Holly, who I'm living with, and do every good
Speaker 3: deed for her and make her happy. Am I the
Speaker 3: one who's worried about my younger brother? Or am I
Speaker 3: the one who's ticked off at my girlfriend who's you know,
Speaker 3: monopolizing my life and doesn't let me go out and
Speaker 3: drink and party in country western dance?
Speaker 4: Well, there is at some point I don't know how
Speaker 4: important it is. That you don't really explain how important
Speaker 4: this is. But Lisa finds a Yellow Rose the bar
Speaker 4: the strip yard that Stephanie Martin dances at. She finds
Speaker 4: a Yellow Rose T shirt from the t shirt and
Speaker 4: and ask him some questions. So as much as she
Speaker 4: might be boss or dominating, I know, being a guy
Speaker 4: that something like that will kind of put a damper
Speaker 4: on everything, including trust and you'll probably never hear. I haven't,
Speaker 4: but I can just imagine how much trouble you to
Speaker 4: try to explain this away or downplay this T shirt.
Speaker 4: So now, now, eventually, eventually, if.
Speaker 3: I recall correctly, he's sort of he worked for a
Speaker 3: beer company delivery company. And if I recall correctly, he
Speaker 3: planed it off as, oh, I was just doing my job,
Speaker 3: you know, and that's how I got the.
Speaker 4: T shirt right, and then he could probably try to
Speaker 4: explain why he kept it again. Still it might be
Speaker 4: an okay explanation, but I think it could add to
Speaker 4: his problems dramatically. Now, the thing is when we talk
Speaker 4: about the Yellow Rose strip bar here that it's a
Speaker 4: topless bar, isn't it?
Speaker 3: It's just a strip club. In fact, ironically, I was
Speaker 3: in touch to today with a person who used to
Speaker 3: work there.
Speaker 4: Okay, now tell us about tell us about the bar itself,
Speaker 4: the Yellow Rose, what type of you know, what type
Speaker 4: of establishment is?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 4: A diver? Is a little a little class here? And
Speaker 4: tell us about Stephanie Lynn Martin. You can go back
Speaker 4: to her early upbringing as well, because it is, as you,
Speaker 4: as we've talked about before, she comes from a Christian
Speaker 4: background and then ends up being in a in a
Speaker 4: strip bar in Texas. So tell us about Stephanie Martin
Speaker 4: from what you've learned in your research about her background
Speaker 4: and her parents, and then tell us where she got
Speaker 4: to at the and and the prominence she had at
Speaker 4: this Yellow Rose strip club.
Speaker 3: Well, let's start off with the strip club, the Yellow Rose.
Speaker 3: Back in those days, it was considered like one of
Speaker 3: the two high end strip clubs in town. It was
Speaker 3: one of the places to go, one of those type
Speaker 3: where you drive up and they have the valet service
Speaker 3: where they put the expensive cars out front, whereas you
Speaker 3: know some dive where you're going to go and just
Speaker 3: park in the back and jump in right. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: she was considered, you know, supposedly a really high end stripper.
Speaker 3: But like you say, we'll get to that in a moment.
Speaker 3: Stephanie kind of like like Chris, is a bit of
Speaker 3: a dichotomy. Dichotomy and that she did have this Southern
Speaker 3: Baptist devout you know background, where she was in church,
Speaker 3: She went to church camp. Her parents were very very
Speaker 3: involved in the church. I was just noticing a while
Speaker 3: ago that I opened the section of the book about
Speaker 3: her where she's lost her cat.
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Speaker 3: And the cat comes home, and then her mother's going
Speaker 3: cleaning up her room, and this discovers this note that
Speaker 3: Stephanie had written saying, Dear God, please bring kitty home safely.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: And so she had this reputation of being so loving
Speaker 3: to animals, but it seemed like from the beginning of
Speaker 3: time she had this exhibitionist, you know in her. That
Speaker 3: makes me sort of question what all went on in
Speaker 3: her background, because when she was in the sixth grade,
Speaker 3: and you have to remember, this is you know, back
Speaker 3: a few years ago. I think she was born in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two, This wasn't a time that it was
Speaker 3: as liberal as it is now, and so like in
Speaker 3: sixth grade, she was pulling little girls into the bathroom
Speaker 3: and kissing them and feeling up with you know, being
Speaker 3: sexual with them, right, And then she would go off
Speaker 3: to church camp. And then she would show up at
Speaker 3: school and say, oh, look, old, I accidentally forgot to
Speaker 3: put on.
Speaker 4: My underwear, right.
Speaker 3: And so it was. And she's charming, she's personal, she's
Speaker 3: out going. She loved to dance. She took dance lessons
Speaker 3: from you know, her childhood on up and was a
Speaker 3: competitive dancer. And so her parents will sort of present
Speaker 3: this image as she was this good daughter. I believe
Speaker 3: she was the youngest of the three kids. But then
Speaker 3: she was also getting in trouble all the time, Like
Speaker 3: she won a dance competition in that same year, she
Speaker 3: was pregnant and smoked her first joint, and she would
Speaker 3: like go and you know, go to school at the
Speaker 3: community college. But then I remember that she was telling
Speaker 3: me something about toying with the occult that, you know,
Speaker 3: with Luigi boards and with the cats and stuff. You
Speaker 3: know here she supposedly loves animals, but I remember they
Speaker 3: would talk. I think it was more like a fantasy
Speaker 3: land or something that about the torture of cats, and
Speaker 3: and she she seemed to me that she loved to
Speaker 3: create drama that you know, supposedly, well, when we talk
Speaker 3: about her boyfriend will Boozenberg, who presented himself as a
Speaker 3: CIA hip man, which we'll get to in a minute,
Speaker 3: Stephanie bought into this, but I really think she wanted
Speaker 3: to buy into it. There's no way I believe that
Speaker 3: she believed he was really a CIA hip man, except
Speaker 3: it fed into her desire to have this flashy, big,
Speaker 3: bold life, you know, like supposedly when they went to
Speaker 3: try out at the strip club at the Yellow Rose
Speaker 3: to dance, I think she tries to present it where oh,
Speaker 3: they were pulling her there, when in reality, she was
Speaker 3: the one saying, oh, let's go, let's go, let's try this.
Speaker 4: Out, right, So she was the good girl trying to
Speaker 4: be a bad girl or vice versa.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: What was interesting too, is that to lend to say
Speaker 4: maybe the parents being in denial or being naive, or
Speaker 4: a domination of both. Apparently, according to your book, the
Speaker 4: father didn't know she worked at this Yellow Rose.
Speaker 3: If I remember correctly. One of his coworkers mentioned that
Speaker 3: he thought he saw Stephanie there and then she just said, Oh,
Speaker 3: I'm a cocktail waitress or something but you know, the
Speaker 3: father had some issues, if I'm again recalling correctly, I
Speaker 3: think he sometimes had a little bit of a gambling problem,
Speaker 3: and I think he had some mental health issues and
Speaker 3: battled with depression a lot. And so my I had
Speaker 3: always been curious whether he had more mental health issues
Speaker 3: than he allowed us to know, and that maybe that
Speaker 3: was going on with Stephanie, that she also had some
Speaker 3: mental health issues that would encourage her into these fantasies
Speaker 3: that you know she kind of created.
Speaker 4: Right now, Well, how did Stephanie and Chris meet and
Speaker 4: what was their relationship exactly?
Speaker 3: Well, she'll always say that they didn't get along. They
Speaker 3: met through his room mate, Will Buzenberg, who eventually became
Speaker 3: Stephanie's boyfriend. And I believe they met at the Yellow Rose,
Speaker 3: because you know, the Yellow Rose in Austin, back in
Speaker 3: those days, was where all young men went. It's I
Speaker 3: always equate that the place has the A girls and
Speaker 3: the B girls. The B girls are the ones that
Speaker 3: dance in the daytime. The A ones are the ones
Speaker 3: at night, and the lack the A plus ones don't
Speaker 3: even bother to come in until ten o'clock at night.
Speaker 3: Because I remember when I was doing my research, and
Speaker 3: I would go to the club and you know, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm a writer, I'm not a partier, and
Speaker 3: so I'd be there, you know, seven eight o'clock and
Speaker 3: the place is dead, and then by ten o'clock, I'm
Speaker 3: exhausted and want to get out of there, and that's
Speaker 3: when it's just starting to go. So a lot of
Speaker 3: the girls, like Stephanie would only come in then. And
Speaker 3: at that point, the young men who come in at
Speaker 3: that at that time are very serious on getting drunk
Speaker 3: and seeing the girls dance.
Speaker 4: Right now, Will Bussenberg, we won't get into. We will
Speaker 4: get into what he did say to Stephanie, what he
Speaker 4: did tell Stephanie about his life and who he was
Speaker 4: and his father. And so tell us about what Will
Speaker 4: Bussenberg told Stephanie Martin we taught, we already alluded to it,
Speaker 4: that he told her he worked for the CIA. Tell
Speaker 4: us the whole incredible story that she had to swallow
Speaker 4: and accept.
Speaker 3: Well, he's sitting in the club, and she says that
Speaker 3: she was mesmerized by him because he was one of
Speaker 3: the few that when he would talk to her, he
Speaker 3: would look in her eyes instead of her check and
Speaker 3: that when she would offer to give him a lap dance.
Speaker 3: He'd say, no, no, no, I just want to talk
Speaker 3: to you, and then would tipper like crazy just to talk.
Speaker 3: And so she totally loved that. And she says that
Speaker 3: he was really hard to get to know, that she
Speaker 3: had to really pull out information from him.
Speaker 1: Then.
Speaker 3: The information that she allegedly pulled out from him was that,
Speaker 3: you know, he was this wealthy guy I think grew
Speaker 3: up on a ranch or something and was had this
Speaker 3: cover working for an orthopedic company here in town. And
Speaker 3: but that was just his cover because he was really
Speaker 3: a CIA hit man. And so he was this good
Speaker 3: guy killing for his country.
Speaker 4: And there was another part too that he even though
Speaker 4: he was young, he I think he'd lied about his age,
Speaker 4: or at least he lied about his education, that he
Speaker 4: had a pre med to and he also had thirty
Speaker 4: years of age. Just to top everything off, he was
Speaker 4: going to inherit millions of dollars.
Speaker 3: So, yes, from this man who taught him how to
Speaker 3: shoot and you know, taught taught him basically how to
Speaker 3: be a hit man. And so he was, yeah, poor Will,
Speaker 3: he's one of these that well Will and Chris to
Speaker 3: me never really had a chance where Stephanie grew up
Speaker 3: in a comfortable, middle class family where her dad worked
Speaker 3: for an oil company at Oklahoma. You know, Will had
Speaker 3: an uh, well, let me go back, Chris had you know,
Speaker 3: this father who died, a supposedly abusive alcoholic mother, and
Speaker 3: then he shipped away, and Will's family was just, according
Speaker 3: to Will, really screwed up. The family split up supposedly
Speaker 3: because the father was a drug addict and abused the
Speaker 3: kids physically and emotionally. And by split up, I mean
Speaker 3: that they were living in one state and part of
Speaker 3: them moved to Texas and part of them stayed behind
Speaker 3: because the family was so abusive. And Will was just
Speaker 3: spent his life looking for someone to love him and accepting.
Speaker 3: And then he got involved in the church, and his
Speaker 3: family was very against that, you know, but he loved
Speaker 3: the church because he felt like he had a family,
Speaker 3: and so he was sort of torn between the family
Speaker 3: he wanted, which was, you know, he wanted to be
Speaker 3: loved by his real family but couldn't get that at
Speaker 3: least the way he needed, and the church family, which
Speaker 3: loved him the way he wanted but wasn't his real family.
Speaker 3: So I don't know, I always felt sorry for Will,
Speaker 3: but I also felt like he had after this happened
Speaker 3: and he realized what he had done. I always felt
Speaker 3: like he got his act together simply because he refused
Speaker 3: to talk to me, and I thought that was really
Speaker 3: smart of him.
Speaker 4: Right now, obviously Chris and Will are living together. He's
Speaker 4: in some contact with Lisa Pace, but for all intensive purposes,
Speaker 4: a relationship is over, and I know they were still
Speaker 4: communicating with each other at that time. But at the
Speaker 4: same time, Will is having a relationship with Stephanie Lynn
Speaker 4: Martin and they are roommates, Chris and Will. And according
Speaker 4: to Will, there's information that he has about Chris that
Speaker 4: he doesn't like about Chris, certain information, negative information. What
Speaker 4: does Will tell Stephanie about Chris, Well, he.
Speaker 3: Basically tells him that he stole a bunch of money
Speaker 3: from him. If that's what you're thinking about, That's what
Speaker 3: I remember. And so he is, you know, just basically
Speaker 3: referring to him as, oh, this loser. I remember that
Speaker 3: Stephanie would walk into the house or to the apartment
Speaker 3: and Chris would be glued to the TV and he
Speaker 3: would be watching a video and she'd say, what is it?
Speaker 3: And it was his video of when he was graduating,
Speaker 3: you know, and navy I'm forgotten what you don't call
Speaker 3: it navy boot camp, but whatever that is. And so
Speaker 3: he was just really depressed. And they would sit there
Speaker 3: and they'd have a dart board and they'd throw things
Speaker 3: at it, you know, the darts at it. I remember
Speaker 3: that there were holes in the walls from it. And
Speaker 3: Will just constantly told Stephanie what a depressed loser basically,
Speaker 3: you know, Chris was. And then he came home and
Speaker 3: because Chris was I mean, Will was always telling Stephanie
Speaker 3: he had all this money, like you say, coming in
Speaker 3: and that he made millions of dollars for these hits
Speaker 3: for the CIA, and you know, bragged about how much
Speaker 3: money he would make from these hits. But yet he
Speaker 3: was always broke, and so when he didn't have the money,
Speaker 3: he started blaming, oh, Chris stole my money. And that
Speaker 3: supposedly made Stephanie mad, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he talked about Chris. Basically, Will said that he
Speaker 4: supported Chris and had given him money to pay utility.
Speaker 4: So he said that the utilities weren't being paid, that he
Speaker 4: was spending his money and just defying him constantly. And
Speaker 4: then it was something very important where he had certified
Speaker 4: checks and apparently the only person could steal that check
Speaker 4: would have been Chris, and so he told her that
Speaker 4: they needed to knock him out and search the room
Speaker 4: to find this check, and so tell us a little
Speaker 4: bit about that. They did go to this and find
Speaker 4: a strong box apparently or Will had said he'd found
Speaker 4: the strong box and there was credit cards, So go
Speaker 4: from there, please.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean Will was just always basically lying. Well,
Speaker 3: I say lying, I don't know the actual facts because
Speaker 3: who knows. One thing you learn in true crime that
Speaker 3: there is the killer story, the victim's story, there's the
Speaker 3: judge's story, there's the prosecution story, there's a defense story,
Speaker 3: and the reality is a combination of all of that.
Speaker 3: So as a true crime writer you just try to
Speaker 3: piece it together the best you can to figure out
Speaker 3: what the facts are. So it's you know, I think
Speaker 3: everybody was basically lying and it was just whatever would
Speaker 3: feed Stephanie to make her feel good is what they
Speaker 3: would tell. So they eventually decided because we're missing one
Speaker 3: of the big facts I think in this, and tell
Speaker 3: me if I'm getting ahead of this, is that one
Speaker 3: day when Will was telling Stephanie one of his you know,
Speaker 3: glorious stories about killing someone, where he would talk about, Oh,
Speaker 3: I climbed up in this tree and I had to
Speaker 3: wait there for hours and hours, and Stephanie would be
Speaker 3: on edge, going really, really tell me more, tell me more,
Speaker 3: and that she said, you should say, what does it
Speaker 3: feel like to kill someone? I want to know what
Speaker 3: it feels like to kill someone. So when this happened,
Speaker 3: that they're angry at Chris for allegedly stealing this money
Speaker 3: that you know, obviously Will didn't really have because what
Speaker 3: his real job was was polishing orthopedic parts that an
Speaker 3: orthopedic manufacturer in town, right, so he wasn't making the
Speaker 3: big bucks. But he would try to present to Stephanie
Speaker 3: he was tipping her big, taking her on trips, that
Speaker 3: they decided to kill Chris so that Stephanie could know
Speaker 3: what it felt like to kill someone. Am I getting
Speaker 3: too ahead of the story for you? No?
Speaker 4: No, I think it's important. I just wanted you do
Speaker 4: talk about how you know, it's hard to say what
Speaker 4: actually happened, and you spend quite a bit of the
Speaker 4: book trying to get to that because you interview everybody
Speaker 4: you possibly can and you asked, and you ask all
Speaker 4: these questions. I just didn't really know if that was
Speaker 4: part of what was really generally accepted as fact that
Speaker 4: she had actually said that. I know that she admitted
Speaker 4: that she probably could have said.
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Speaker 4: It's something that she was curious. I just don't it
Speaker 4: seems very convenient for Will to say that. Of course,
Speaker 4: and we'll find out more as the story goes on. Anyway,
Speaker 4: I just I didn't want I didn't know that that's
Speaker 4: what exactly what we're gonna we're gonna speak about, because
Speaker 4: but anyway, it's I'm glad you brought it up. Now,
Speaker 4: the thing is is that they're talking about wanting to
Speaker 4: do this for the experience, or let's let's put it
Speaker 4: this way. They both Will has a reason to do
Speaker 4: this and she has a reason to do this. Maybe
Speaker 4: it's her experience. Uh, they both think Chris is as
Speaker 4: a dirt ball or weirdo, deserves to die put him
Speaker 4: out of his misery. They even used, Uh, they've even
Speaker 4: spoke about that. So tell us about their plan, their
Speaker 4: initial because there's a conspiracy and then there's a actual murder,
Speaker 4: So tell us about their original plans and to deal
Speaker 4: with Chris Hattens.
Speaker 3: Oh, well, at one point they were just I think
Speaker 3: going to you know, load him up with sleeping pills,
Speaker 3: and she she was very specific on when I say she,
Speaker 3: obviously Stephanie was very specific about the kind of sleeping
Speaker 3: pills that they tried, and you know, went to the
Speaker 3: store and read the labels carefully and picked him out.
Speaker 3: And the sleeping pills supposedly didn't work. So I believe
Speaker 3: at one point they were going to put rat poison
Speaker 3: in his burrito, and so I think Will came by
Speaker 3: with the burrito and Chris wasn't there, so he left
Speaker 3: it for him. But I don't know why. I don't
Speaker 3: know if I made this up in my head, but
Speaker 3: I have this thing in my head where Will brings
Speaker 3: the burrito there and it's and Chris is it there,
Speaker 3: so he eats it himself, so it's it's good. Like
Speaker 3: maybe they've bought the rat poison, but I don't think
Speaker 3: it ever actually made it in there, even though Will
Speaker 3: may have told the Stephanie that or what. But no,
Speaker 3: they tried several several times to allegedly to kill him
Speaker 3: before finally giving f on it.
Speaker 4: And now from everything that you know, and so that's
Speaker 4: where we'll just skip a little bit ahead. Tell us
Speaker 4: about the actual murder itself, and tell us what you
Speaker 4: think really actually happened, Who did what and why? But
Speaker 4: tell us about the actual murder.
Speaker 3: God, I hate to tell what I actually thought. Some
Speaker 3: ois scared I'm gonna get sued, but.
Speaker 4: It's hard to do ken we don't have that much
Speaker 4: of a budget.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's well. Bottom line is, if I recall correctly,
Speaker 3: Chris was lying in bed and they came in and
Speaker 3: took a shotgun and blasted him. Now Stephanie will say
Speaker 3: she wasn't there and that Will killed her then, but
Speaker 3: when they were arrested, she said, no, that I shot
Speaker 3: him because he Chris tried to rape me. Because in
Speaker 3: Stephanie's eyes, everyone was always wanting her, and supposedly she
Speaker 3: constantly and it seemed to something that her mother had
Speaker 3: to these fears of rape, which again makes me wonder
Speaker 3: what happened in her background. But so she I mean,
Speaker 3: she was constantly throwing out this rape scenario with me, like, oh,
Speaker 3: I went with this guy after work, but I was
Speaker 3: scared he was going to rape me. She brought this
Speaker 3: line up a lot, so when the police arrested them, eventually,
Speaker 3: again I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead a little bit, she said, oh,
Speaker 3: Chris tried to rape me, so I shot him in
Speaker 3: self defense. And then later on she said, no, that
Speaker 3: Will shot him. And one of the things I will
Speaker 3: never forget is how the police were describing to me
Speaker 3: the blood in the room when they did the luminol,
Speaker 3: because Stephanie and Will tried to some degree to clean
Speaker 3: up the crime scene. They shot him in the bedroom
Speaker 3: at the apartment, and they then they came and came
Speaker 3: after the murder, came back and tried to do a
Speaker 3: little bit of a paint job to cover it up.
Speaker 3: And the police said when they they spread the luminol,
Speaker 3: you know, spread the luminol and turned off the lights,
Speaker 3: that it was just glowing everywhere with blood dripping everywhere,
Speaker 3: that they had never seen anything like it. And if
Speaker 3: I call because of the blood being between two layers
Speaker 3: of paint, it would kind of flash like lightning in
Speaker 3: the room.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, the thing is he was his head was
Speaker 4: blown off from the shotgun blast. And then they took
Speaker 4: this body eventually out of that apartment. They drained the blood. Yeah,
Speaker 4: they drained the blood in the bathtub the rest of
Speaker 4: the blood, so you can imagine that there still was more.
Speaker 4: And then, regardless of whatever Stephanie Martin said of not
Speaker 4: being there, she does say admitted that regardless she did
Speaker 4: go and help transport this body, clean up the body.
Speaker 4: She was there to witness soon after the murder. Regardless
Speaker 4: of whether she was there or not, whether anybody believes that.
Speaker 4: So they did try to dispose his body, What did
Speaker 4: they do? Where did they put the body and in
Speaker 4: what condition did the police find the body? Finally, well, they.
Speaker 3: Wrapped it up and carried the body out like it
Speaker 3: was a rug or something. Put it in the back
Speaker 3: of Wells pickup truck and drove around Austin in the
Speaker 3: middle of the night trying to find the perfect place
Speaker 3: to dump the body. And they would like, go, no,
Speaker 3: this place isn't right. That place isn't right. This place
Speaker 3: isn't right. And they finally drove I'm guessing it's probably
Speaker 3: twenty thirty miles outside of town to Lake Travis, to
Speaker 3: a place called Pacebin Park, which is a nice, peaceful,
Speaker 3: happy place. I'm back at one point. I think it
Speaker 3: was the Texas version of the Hell's Angels used to allegedly,
Speaker 3: you know, have killings out there, but nowadays it's, you know,
Speaker 3: a nice happy camping ground where people go for picnics
Speaker 3: on the holidays and stuff. And it was a warm
Speaker 3: January night and in the middle of the night they
Speaker 3: drove to Pacebin Park by Lake Travis, meandered down toward
Speaker 3: the shore and at one of the barbecue pits, lit
Speaker 3: it up and put Chris on top of it. Actually
Speaker 3: I think they put the firewood, put Chris on top,
Speaker 3: and then Stephanie took a hack saw which they had
Speaker 3: brought with them, and started sawing off the hands and
Speaker 3: allegedly This was because Will said, we've got to get
Speaker 3: rid of the hands because of the fingerprints, which does
Speaker 3: not make any sense at all, because hey, we've got
Speaker 3: you know, teeth, all this kind of stuff that could
Speaker 3: identify him, but they didn't. They didn't want him to
Speaker 3: be identified by the hands. So Stephanie took the hack
Speaker 3: saw and started sawing off the hands. And I remember
Speaker 3: her specifically when I was interviewing her, telling me about
Speaker 3: how difficult it was to sew off the hands, that
Speaker 3: she couldn't get a good groove going, so she kept
Speaker 3: having to start doing this again. And it's really weird
Speaker 3: because a few weeks ago I was in my backyard
Speaker 3: pruning trees and I was using a hack saw, and
Speaker 3: every time I would do a limb, I would think
Speaker 3: about Stephanie Wow, because the limbs I was cutting off
Speaker 3: were about the size of a bone, and the hands
Speaker 3: or the arms, the wrist, and I just kept thinking
Speaker 3: how hard this mutive must have been because I was
Speaker 3: working so hard to cut off that tree limb. And
Speaker 3: you know, a tree limb that's only you know, a
Speaker 3: few inches in diameter is not going to be as
Speaker 3: strong as a bone, right, Yeah, And what and what
Speaker 3: makes it. It would have been understandable if you could,
Speaker 3: if you had gone, Oh, these people were on drugs,
Speaker 3: but they weren't. There were stones sober. And so then
Speaker 3: once she I think they got like one a hand
Speaker 3: off or something, and then just got tired and gave
Speaker 3: up because they was you know, I think the sun
Speaker 3: was getting close to rising or something, and so they
Speaker 3: wanted out of there, and so they set the body
Speaker 3: on fire and left the hands there that they had
Speaker 3: to cut off so they couldn't be identified. Well, they
Speaker 3: just left the hands there, tucked it under the body.
Speaker 4: They did panic, though, because they did hear some dogs barking,
Speaker 4: so they abandoned their plans and left the body there. Now,
Speaker 4: who discovered the body or how was the body discovered?
Speaker 4: Not specifically who's discovered, but how was it discovered? And
Speaker 4: then what did the how did the police proceed from there?
Speaker 3: Oh, this was just so sad. There was a young
Speaker 3: man with his son, I think, if I recall correctly,
Speaker 3: the son was like three years old, maybe five, I
Speaker 3: think three to five, and they were looking for a
Speaker 3: great camping spot because they were planning on a fun
Speaker 3: father son evening. And they look up and they see something.
Speaker 3: The dad's like, uh oh, So he goes in looks for,
Speaker 3: you know, a law enforcement guy in the park and
Speaker 3: gets out of the car and saying, look, I don't
Speaker 3: want my son to hear this, but I think there's
Speaker 3: a dead body down there. And the law enforcement guy's
Speaker 3: going yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard this story all the time.
Speaker 3: It's just a dead deer or something. And the guy's
Speaker 3: going no, no, no, you know, come look you know,
Speaker 3: or you know, let me tell you where it is.
Speaker 3: And the law enforcement guy, because it's sunset the next day,
Speaker 3: getting close to sunset, the guy, the law enforcement guy saying, man,
Speaker 3: if you don't show me where this is, we're never
Speaker 3: going to find this before dark. You have to take me.
Speaker 3: And the guy who's found it's like no, no, no,
Speaker 3: I don't want my son to see this. I'm going
Speaker 3: to get out of here, and he's going, no, you
Speaker 3: have to take me. So they drive up and the
Speaker 3: law enforcement guy is like seeing this and going, oh,
Speaker 3: this isn't a dead deer. Maybe this is a mannequin
Speaker 3: because he's just seen this white white skin because like
Speaker 3: I say, it's in January. And he pulls up and
Speaker 3: he's going, oh no, this does what human And the
Speaker 3: kid is in the truck going and they're they're they're saying, oh,
Speaker 3: just yell that this was a mannequin or something, and
Speaker 3: so that my son will hear this. And the sun's
Speaker 3: in the truck going or I think it was a
Speaker 3: van was going. No, but Dad, I saw hair on
Speaker 3: the legs. It wasn't that. Just oh that poor kid.
Speaker 3: So that's what started going where Then the law enforcement
Speaker 3: guy got on the radio and called in his superiors
Speaker 3: to you know, identify that this was this young man.
Speaker 3: And the way they actually identified him as you know,
Speaker 3: I had said that they wrapped his body in uh,
Speaker 3: you know, basically a sleeping bag, and it was identified
Speaker 3: by Chris Hatton's military you know markings on there with
Speaker 3: his name and I think part of the social security number.
Speaker 3: And then you know, all of this was so law
Speaker 3: enforcement oriented because here Chris Hatton was the you know,
Speaker 3: nephew of a sheriff's officer. I think it was the
Speaker 3: guy who found the body. I think he was involved
Speaker 3: in law enforcement. And then the cop it's like, if
Speaker 3: you're gonna shoot somebody, don't kill the nephew of a
Speaker 3: cop is also the aunt this aunt Holly that was
Speaker 3: married to you know.
Speaker 2: His uncle.
Speaker 3: She was cop too, so of course with this, you
Speaker 3: know the cops are going to be all over it.
Speaker 4: Now. The thing is that how did police? I know
Speaker 4: police put this together pretty quickly, but how did what
Speaker 4: was the key to them putting this together? Obviously they're
Speaker 4: going to want to go talk to Chris Hatton's roommate,
Speaker 4: but how did police get turned on to these two
Speaker 4: people so quickly?
Speaker 3: Well, they went to after the body was identified, they
Speaker 3: went to the apartment and so then they were doing
Speaker 3: the luminol and see, you know that this is definitely
Speaker 3: a crime scene, and they noticed that, oh, this crime
Speaker 3: scene isn't completely cleaned up. They're going to be back.
Speaker 3: So they basically just waited for them to show up,
Speaker 3: which they did, wow. And then they took them in
Speaker 3: for questioning. And you know, Stephanie said, oh, I did it.
Speaker 3: You know, he tried to rape me and so I
Speaker 3: shot him.
Speaker 4: You did when you did interview her later on in
Speaker 4: the end of the book, you talk about how she
Speaker 4: said that they had a few precious minutes where against
Speaker 4: police procedure, the two accused were left alone in the
Speaker 4: car together and that's where she hatched that plan. She
Speaker 4: admitted about the rape and murder. M Yes, that was interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's what I find interesting is every case that
Speaker 3: I have worked on where the Travis County Sheriff's Department
Speaker 3: has been involved and as opposed to the Austin Police Department,
Speaker 3: there have always been what seemed like really screw ups
Speaker 3: in the investigation. And that's not coming simply from me.
Speaker 3: That's coming from the attorneys that I have interviewed about
Speaker 3: the case who have been involved in it. And so
Speaker 3: what I discovered because I used to live in an
Speaker 3: area that was patrolled by the Sheriff's department and as
Speaker 3: opposed to the Austin Police, and what I saw was
Speaker 3: that they're really good people who try really hard and
Speaker 3: want to do their jobs well. But at that point,
Speaker 3: and it may have changed I mentally, they just weren't
Speaker 3: trained well.
Speaker 4: Right now, in your book, quite a bit as dedicated
Speaker 4: to the you know, the incredible trial and the investigation
Speaker 4: of what actually went on, because you have so many
Speaker 4: pathological liars here, at least a couple of them anyway,
Speaker 4: where it's hard to sort out what actually happened, and
Speaker 4: so you spend quite a bit of your book, trying
Speaker 4: to find out exactly what did happen, and the police
Speaker 4: are aided, I guess, and but overly complicated by so
Speaker 4: many people coming forward and so many people willing to
Speaker 4: talk against Stephanie and against Will Bussenberg. So tell us basically,
Speaker 4: without going into all the names. But they did speak
Speaker 4: to Lisa Paced, they did speak to a follow stripper
Speaker 4: at the strip club. They did speak to Will Busenberg's inmate,
Speaker 4: Buddy mac o'para. So what did basically a litany of
Speaker 4: people say, a group of people say about Stephanie and
Speaker 4: about Will and this murder.
Speaker 3: Well, if I remember correctly, they were just basically that
Speaker 3: these are two crazy, screwed up people. And one thing
Speaker 3: I have failed to mention about Stephanie is while all
Speaker 3: this was going on, the Yellow Rose every year at
Speaker 3: least back then would do a calendar and she was
Speaker 3: the cover girl of the calendar. So while she's being arrested,
Speaker 3: they're like distributing, you know, calendars of her with this gorgeous,
Speaker 3: you know, sultry look. So to see her in prison
Speaker 3: compared to the gorgeous Southern Baptist stripper, you know, it
Speaker 3: was kind of a change. But you know, there are
Speaker 3: a lot of people who don't believe she did it.
Speaker 3: For example, her parents, they are one hundred percent, you know, innocent.
Speaker 3: But basically Will didn't have a lot of friends because
Speaker 3: he burned a lot of bridges. For example, when he
Speaker 3: was in high school and his family life was so bad,
Speaker 3: he was taken in by the Round Rock Baptist Children's Home,
Speaker 3: which is a fabulous, wonderful, loving place. I've known about
Speaker 3: this place since I was like five years old, and
Speaker 3: then getting to go in and get a tour of
Speaker 3: the home and see how they lived. They really do
Speaker 3: great work. And Will's goal, even though he initially wanted
Speaker 3: to get there, go there, was get out, get out,
Speaker 3: get out, And so anyone who had tried to help
Speaker 3: him had sort of turned against him, I mean, he
Speaker 3: had turned them against him. So neither one of them
Speaker 3: had a lot of friends, with the exception of Stephanie's
Speaker 3: best friend Roxy and her parents, and Will basically had
Speaker 3: no one.
Speaker 4: Right And when it came time to get an attorney
Speaker 4: for himself to defend him, he also was destitute too
Speaker 4: and had to go through just the public defender, whereas
Speaker 4: Stephanie's parents did arrange for a lawyer and did have
Speaker 4: a gentleman named Ira Davis.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they immediately went as soon as they got the
Speaker 3: phone call that she was arrested. Her dad was saying,
Speaker 3: don't talk to anybody. Don't talk to anybody. And she
Speaker 3: had already given a statement and he called up, you know,
Speaker 3: members from their church and said who do you recommend?
Speaker 3: And they recommended Ira Davis and go ahead.
Speaker 4: Now, despite Ira Davis's attempt to minimize the damage, like
Speaker 4: you say, from the statement that she already made to
Speaker 4: police as well as Will's Bussenberg's attorneys as well or attorney,
Speaker 4: these people still continue to correspond while they're in prison,
Speaker 4: isn't that correct?
Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember that Stephanie would talk to me about
Speaker 3: the love letters that he would send her, and it
Speaker 3: seems like I even had copies of the love letters.
Speaker 3: I remember going through his psychological medical records, you know,
Speaker 3: from his time at the children's home when he was
Speaker 3: going through therapy, and reading all of that, as well
Speaker 3: as reading the love letters that he would send her.
Speaker 3: You know, I think, in my opinion, because you were
Speaker 3: asking my opinion, I think he truly loved her. Obviously
Speaker 3: if he was willing to kill for her and that
Speaker 3: she was just totally using him the entire time to
Speaker 3: learn to see what it felt like to kill someone.
Speaker 4: Right, There was a lot of friends that came forward
Speaker 4: that said that she had mentioned to them that she
Speaker 4: had stated that she wanted to experience the thrill of
Speaker 4: killing someone, that she could kill someone. There was a
Speaker 4: lot of people that came forward to say that. And
Speaker 4: in Will's case, there were people that came forward to
Speaker 4: make statements against him as well, like this former inmate
Speaker 4: and other people as well. So, now, how does this
Speaker 4: play out in court in terms of just how are
Speaker 4: they trying to how are each one of the lawyers
Speaker 4: trying to frame this as he said, she said, they
Speaker 4: try to blame each other. How it was the court
Speaker 4: dynamic exactly.
Speaker 3: And what happened is Stephanie was getting ready to make
Speaker 3: a plea bargain when Will beat her to the punch.
Speaker 3: So you know, he as what happens when most cases
Speaker 3: when there's a male and a female involved, that the
Speaker 3: female usually gets the harsher sentner. Well, this happened in
Speaker 3: this case in part because Will beat her to the
Speaker 3: punch and got the better deal because he was going
Speaker 3: to testify against her.
Speaker 4: But it also was as a result of the prosecution
Speaker 4: not believing her story of her innocence and not being there.
Speaker 4: They did really believe that she did want to kill
Speaker 4: so that's why they did. They were anxious to make
Speaker 4: a deal with Will because they did want to prosecute
Speaker 4: her fully for those crimes as well.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, and I understand why they felt that.
Speaker 3: In fact, today I was talking to a man who
Speaker 3: recently read the book, and he one of the first
Speaker 3: things he said to me is, I think she really
Speaker 3: did pull the trigger. And I'm like, ah, so, I
Speaker 3: you know, I kind of think that too, and I
Speaker 3: don't want to think that, but it just the story
Speaker 3: doesn't make sense otherwise.
Speaker 4: Right now, The thing is is that the plea bargain
Speaker 4: that we're talking about is not so good for Will,
Speaker 4: but it certainly is. It's obviously not the death penalty.
Speaker 4: But the thing is, what type of plea bargain did
Speaker 4: he actually get in exchange for his testimony and providing
Speaker 4: evidence against her.
Speaker 3: Well, if I remember correctly, he got twenty years and
Speaker 3: she got thirty, and if I remember correctly, neither one
Speaker 3: of them could appeal the sentence, right, And what was
Speaker 3: interesting is after this all went to trial, Stephanie's in prison.
Speaker 3: I went to interview her several times, as you know,
Speaker 3: as a reporter, and then after the book was turned in,
Speaker 3: she put me on her visitor list and I went
Speaker 3: to see her a few more times. And it is,
Speaker 3: I'm sure you've talked to other true crime writers where
Speaker 3: it gets. It is just so emotionally draining to go
Speaker 3: to prison then and visit with these people. And so
Speaker 3: I finally kind of quit going. And then a long
Speaker 3: time afterwards, out of the blue, I got a letter
Speaker 3: from her wanting me to help her with her appeal,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, well, that was one of the conditions
Speaker 3: of your yeah, And so I never answered her letter
Speaker 3: and never heard from her again.
Speaker 4: Right now, the thing is is did she was she
Speaker 4: in approval over the tone of your book? Did she
Speaker 4: ever get to read the book? Or what do you
Speaker 4: what do you know about her personality and concerning this book?
Speaker 4: What what did she what would she think and did
Speaker 4: she have any comments about the book or its content
Speaker 4: or anything.
Speaker 3: I'm guessing she absolutely loved it, because if you go
Speaker 3: to Amazon and look at some of the reviews, or
Speaker 3: maybe it's Barnes Andoble dot com, one of the two.
Speaker 3: Someone wrote on there, I'm reading this book because it
Speaker 3: was recommended to me by Stephanie Martin. And Stephanie was
Speaker 3: on one of those websites where you you know, date
Speaker 3: a girl in prison or something like that, and so
Speaker 3: she had I think maybe one of her Yellow Rose
Speaker 3: cover girl, you know photos on there, because I remember
Speaker 3: that the picture on the website looked nothing like what
Speaker 3: she was in prison, because when I interviewed her, she
Speaker 3: kept her hand over her mouth, and that's because she
Speaker 3: had gotten in a fight in prison and had her
Speaker 3: tooth knocked out right. And her mother was just irate
Speaker 3: that the prison people that this wasn't like you know,
Speaker 3: going to your private dental person then you call up
Speaker 3: the doctor and get an emergency appointment. She was like
Speaker 3: furious that, hey, she's in prison and she can't get
Speaker 3: dental care immediately. You know, it's this h.
Speaker 4: What you did talk about visiting her numerous times in prison.
Speaker 4: What is her demeanor in prison when you do have
Speaker 4: these visits.
Speaker 3: She's pleasant, sociable, she wants to come across, is very good.
Speaker 3: She doesn't seem to realize that how incriminating so much
Speaker 3: of what she says is how it makes her look bad.
Speaker 3: She thinks it makes her look good, and I think
Speaker 3: I'm put it in the book. One of the things
Speaker 3: I remember is that when I was interviewing the cops
Speaker 3: one time, and they were had just gone to Quantico
Speaker 3: for some FBI training, and they talked about how when
Speaker 3: a person goes uh a lot, that they're making up
Speaker 3: their stories how they go along exactly. And so when
Speaker 3: I was interviewing with Stephanie, I noticed that she was
Speaker 3: constantly going mmmm. And I put that in the interview
Speaker 3: a lot, and it drove a lot of people crazy.
Speaker 3: But the reason I did that was to show how
Speaker 3: she was making things up as she went along. If
Speaker 3: you go by what the FBI.
Speaker 4: Says, sure you know, and it's the way people talk too.
Speaker 4: It's certainly if you because I've seen transcripted conversation, you
Speaker 4: start a sentence, there's a certain certain way that people
Speaker 4: normally talk, and when they're trying to be deceptive, I
Speaker 4: know what you're speaking of. It seems to be more plotting,
Speaker 4: and they're establishing things as they go along, and it
Speaker 4: almost sounds you can almost hear the wheels turning as
Speaker 4: they're coming up with this, as they're sort of establishing
Speaker 4: it with you and giving themselves enough time to immage
Speaker 4: or create the rest of it. So it does very Yeah.
Speaker 3: And with criminals, or at least with murderers off, I've
Speaker 3: found that they have their storyline and they have to
Speaker 3: stick with that story. So what I always do is
Speaker 3: I let them talk that storyline long enough that they
Speaker 3: feel I'm totally buying into it, and then I will
Speaker 3: stop them and back them up or shoot them toward
Speaker 3: the end of the story or back to the front,
Speaker 3: so that I get them out of order. And when
Speaker 3: you do that, they almost always say something that they
Speaker 3: don't intend to.
Speaker 4: Interesting. Yes, And so your conclusion too, is that this
Speaker 4: woman was just pathological our pardon me, psychopathic in her
Speaker 4: desire to experience this, and that is evidenced by, like
Speaker 4: you say, she loves all the attention, she's recommending the
Speaker 4: book to her friends. That certainly doesn't seem the person
Speaker 4: that's ashamed or humiliated by what they did and very
Speaker 4: very remorseful and wants to put it in the past.
Speaker 3: And a contrast to Will, who just tried to disappear,
Speaker 3: you know, he tried to disappear in prison, so that like,
Speaker 3: let me do my time, and you know what I
Speaker 3: did was wrong, let me pay for it, whereas she's
Speaker 3: still saying no, no, no, I didn't do this, and
Speaker 3: you know, would send me recipes of how they make
Speaker 3: cheesecake or whatever in prison. You know, it's just sort
Speaker 3: of a party to her. And I hate saying that
Speaker 3: because I want to be respectful to her parents, who
Speaker 3: I know that if they heard this conversation tonight, they
Speaker 3: would be so absolutely devastated by what I'm saying. And
Speaker 3: I think it's important that when people realize that when
Speaker 3: there is a murder, there aren't just the victims of
Speaker 3: the murder, victim of their friends and the families that
Speaker 3: the killers, their families are victims too.
Speaker 4: Oh, certainly, I've done so many cases where you have
Speaker 4: the Bernardo Hamolco case in Canada where the daughter was killed,
Speaker 4: and yet still the family, in light of all the
Speaker 4: information that came out of trial, was still in support
Speaker 4: of their other daughter, who in effect helped murder their
Speaker 4: younger daughters.
Speaker 3: Well. In fact, lots of people have referred to Stephanie
Speaker 3: and will in the same vein as that case.
Speaker 4: Wow. Yeah, it's incredible when you do. I think it's
Speaker 4: the scariest thing is obviously the person that has the
Speaker 4: capacity to kill and kill without any remorse. What's even
Speaker 4: more shocking and more terrifying is when people can find
Speaker 4: a soulmate of sorts to live out their fantasies together.
Speaker 4: It's even more frightening, I think. So.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a photograph in the book that Stephanie had
Speaker 3: made for me when I went and visited her on
Speaker 3: her visitor list, and to me, it just sort of
Speaker 3: sums her up. She's in prison. She's in her prison
Speaker 3: wide standing before a sign that says Happy Easter, and
Speaker 3: you know they're smiling for me. That she went and
Speaker 3: had a photo made in prison for me so that
Speaker 3: I could run it in the book.
Speaker 4: Yeah, incredible, Well, it is an incredible book. Wages of
Speaker 4: Sin Murder was there, turn On. I want to thank
Speaker 4: you very much for this interview of Susie. It was
Speaker 4: a it's a great read, and thank you for a
Speaker 4: great interview.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 4: You've been listening to the program True Murder, the most
Speaker 4: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 4: have written about them with my special guest Susie Spencer,
Speaker 4: author of Wages of Sin Murder was their turn on.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much, Susie, and have yourself a good evening,
Speaker 4: you too. Okay, good night, good night,