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Every 32 00:01:31.159 --> 00:01:34.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 33 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:39.480 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 34 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:42.319 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 35 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.000 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 36 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:58.280 program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime 37 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:02.159 history and the authors that are written about them. The 38 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:04.799 East Area rapist would break into middle class homes and 39 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:07.879 respectable neighborhoods in the dark of night, tie up his 40 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:10.439 victims and tell them over and over they were going 41 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:14.039 to die. Well, he didn't kill them, and didn't kill anyone, 42 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:17.120 not at first. The East Area rapists got his start 43 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:20.400 in the summer of nineteen seventy six in Sacramento County 44 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.800 and raped thirty women between June nineteen seventy six. In 45 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:28.000 July nineteen seventy eight, he moved on to Contra Acosta County, 46 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:30.599 in October nineteen seventy eight, and then continued south to 47 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:33.719 Santa Barbara and Orange Counties, where he was known as 48 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:36.840 the Knightstalker, named before his crimes were linked to those 49 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:40.759 up north. Psychiatrists helping the task force talk with imprisoned 50 00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:44.080 sex offenders who said East Area Rapist was looking for 51 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:47.400 an excuse to kill, not just a rape. They were right. 52 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:51.120 Larry Crompton was working in the crime Lab in Contracostron 53 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:55.000 the county doing crime scene investigations when East Area Rapist 54 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:59.039 arrived in late nineteen seventy nine. After Eyre's third attack, 55 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:02.360 a task force of local police agencies, the DA's office 56 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.199 and the Crime Lab was formed and Crompton was appointed 57 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:09.240 to it. First murder was a double homicide in Santa 58 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:12.479 Barbara County in December nineteen seventy nine. As attacks continued 59 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:16.159 until after another double homicide in nineteen eighty one, the 60 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:19.400 East Airy Rapist vanished for five years. He reappeared for 61 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:23.360 another double homicide and made nineteen eighty six. Larry Crompton 62 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:25.560 had retired, but in May two thousand he got a 63 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:28.879 call from a criminologist in Contra Costra County who was 64 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:31.960 working with DNA and the EAR files. Crompton gave him 65 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:34.240 the names of three rape victims, and by July it 66 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:37.639 was confirmed that the same man was behind them. Further 67 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.680 DNA worked proved in two thousand and one and six 68 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:44.199 of the ten murders then attributed to EAR were by 69 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:47.039 the same person, and in April two thousand and two, 70 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:50.120 the Orange County Sheriff's Office slew Crompton down to help 71 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:54.599 with the investigation. The East Airy rapist or original Nightstalker, 72 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:57.120 has yet to be arrested. The book we're featuring this 73 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:02.439 evening is Sudden Terror, with my special guests, police officer 74 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:07.080 and author Larry Crompton. Welcome to the program, and thank 75 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:10.719 you for agreeing to this interview. Larry Crompton, Thank you, Dan. 76 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:12.400 I really appreciate you having me on. 77 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:16.319 I apologize because I was there was a little bit 78 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.759 of confusion in what I was reading. You were retired 79 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.319 detective or lieutenant? What would you want to be considered 80 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:25.319 retired from the police force. 81 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:29.040 The main thing is retired, But I didn't retire as 82 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.639 a lieutenant, but working on the task force, I was 83 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:33.240 a sergeant. 84 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:37.920 I see, I got it. Okay, okay, now let's get 85 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:43.600 to when this happened in nineteen seventy six, Where were 86 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:48.959 you and what was your What was your impression of 87 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.920 the first when you first heard about the first rapes 88 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.240 that were heard that occurred in nineteen seventy six, Where 89 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:58.319 were you and what were you What were your thoughts 90 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:00.399 at that time? 91 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.959 I knew nothing about it. Things were different then than 92 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.720 what they are now. If you didn't live in the 93 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:09.839 town or close to it, or didn't get that newspaper, 94 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:13.639 you didn't hear about these things. Contracosta is not that 95 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:18.000 far from Sacramento, but we knew nothing about the East 96 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:22.399 area rapist and knew nothing until August of nineteen seventy eight, 97 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:25.920 when the sergeant that was in charge of their task force, 98 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:30.279 Sergeant Jim Bevans, and the Lieutenant Ray Root, came down 99 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.680 to Conquered and had a meeting with us. And at 100 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:35.800 that time I was working in the crime lab and 101 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.000 the sheriff asked if I would go to that meeting, 102 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:43.000 and one of the criminalists with me, and that's the 103 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:47.360 first time we heard about it. And again sitting there 104 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:50.519 and listening to them tell us about rapes that occurred 105 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:54.439 in Sacramento, and all we could think of is we're 106 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:56.720 in Contra cost To County. We don't have people like 107 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:58.879 that down here, so this isn't going to bother us. 108 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:04.519 We learned differently right now. 109 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:07.160 In terms of the crime scene investigation, I know that 110 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.040 as far as I know, it's you're part of a team. 111 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:14.240 What area of expertise do you have and what in 112 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:18.720 terms of your contribution and your job in this team 113 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:20.680 doing crime scene investigations. 114 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.759 Well, what my job was was to go to crime 115 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:30.399 scenes and we would process them fingerprints and photographs and 116 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.639 things like that. And also one of the things that 117 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:38.360 I had to do in homicides was to go to 118 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:45.879 the take pictures of the murdered victim as the doctors 119 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:49.319 are working on them doing the autopsies and I would 120 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:53.399 have to photograph them. But mainly it was to go 121 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:58.879 to the scene and do the processing of the scenes. 122 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:03.199 Prior to that, I had no experience in it at all. 123 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:05.560 I got to the crime lab, saw some of the 124 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:07.800 books that they were reading and I couldn't even pronounce them. 125 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:12.199 But the crime Libe in Contra Costa County was an 126 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:14.920 excellent one and the people that were in there were 127 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:18.639 excellent and worked with me very well, and took me 128 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:22.319 under their arm and taught me what I needed to know. 129 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:26.839 Now, you say there was things were different in those days. 130 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:29.959 If a crime occurred in a certain county. Were we 131 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:33.720 talking for those people that don't know the expanse of 132 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:39.319 distance in California? The difference between northern and southern California 133 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:42.959 in terms of distance between where he started in Sacramento 134 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:47.000 and where you were. What kind of mileage are we 135 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:50.079 talking about? How many counties away or what's the distance? 136 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:54.120 Well, there's only one county between us in as Solano County, 137 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:59.759 so you can get there within well because of the traffic, 138 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:01.759 and California is going to take a little longer than 139 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.319 what you would think, but within a couple hours you 140 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:04.879 could be there. 141 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:11.519 Okay, okay, So take us back to June seventeenth. I 142 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:14.360 know that you just mentioned that you really didn't know 143 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:17.000 about that, But take us back like you were there 144 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:19.680 in June seventeen, nineteen seventy six, because you do a 145 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:25.160 great job of Obviously there are ten murders here, but 146 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.160 there's also a multitude of rapes and then you talk 147 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:32.120 about the escalation. So where he started and where he 148 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:37.080 ended up as a rapist, killer, serial rapist killer. But 149 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.000 June seventeenth, you talk about Carry Frank and tell us 150 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:43.679 about Carry Frank, and this is an amazing part of 151 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.919 the book where you have the opportunity because she survived 152 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:50.320 and it gives you the details, and you've written about 153 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.120 that in the book, So tell us about Kerry Frank 154 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:54.600 And June seventeenth, nineteen seventy six. 155 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.960 Well, Carrie was home alone. Her father was out of 156 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.600 town and she didn't expect him back for a while, 157 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:09.120 and she thought that she was being watched in May 158 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:14.080 of nineteen seventy six, and she received several hang up 159 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:20.000 phone calls for two weeks before the attack, and she 160 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.080 felt that somebody was watching her. But because of the 161 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:29.559 phone calls, she was very, very nervous. And this night 162 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:34.000 when he did come in, when she first was awoken, 163 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:37.440 she thought it was her father, but obviously it wasn't. 164 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:42.000 And prior to him getting in, he tried to cut 165 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:45.600 the phone line going into the house, and that is 166 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:49.840 something that he did in many of the attacks, is 167 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:52.320 that he would disable the phone so that they couldn't call. 168 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.639 He tied her up, like he did all of them 169 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:02.080 after that, and one thing about this is his modus 170 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:07.639 of doing this. In the first attack he got a 171 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.320 little more sophisticated, but it was the same way. He 172 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:16.679 tied her hands behind her back extremely tight. He tied 173 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:21.799 her ankles very loose, and he talked through clenched teeth, 174 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:27.759 told her that all he wanted was food and money, 175 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:31.080 and didn't want to hurt her and wasn't going to 176 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:38.720 hurt her, and he didn't blindfold her. In other ones 177 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:42.240 he did he started blindfolding, but in this one here 178 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:45.600 he asked her do you have money? He ransacked the house. 179 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:53.159 And one thing that in this attack and the ones afterwards, 180 00:10:54.159 --> 00:11:01.440 he always lubricated himself. And this victim here carry Frank, 181 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.440 and all ones after that all said that he was 182 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.559 very small, in doubt, very tiny, and never did have 183 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:16.480 a full erection in any of these attacks. She she 184 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.919 could describe him only that he wore a dark T 185 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:25.639 shirt and dirty white or gray ski mask with holes 186 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:28.039 for the eyes. And when he woke her up, he 187 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.600 had no pants on. He did have his tennis shoes on, 188 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:36.159 but no pants. And this is something that he did 189 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:41.639 in rapes after that also, but not in everyone. 190 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:44.679 Now did he say right from the very first with 191 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:47.559 carry Frank, you're going to die. He threaten. Did he 192 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:48.799 threaten her? Yes? 193 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:54.000 He did. He threatened every one of them. And my 194 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:57.559 feeling is that is what he wanted to do right 195 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:02.360 from the start, was to kill, but did not. And 196 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:07.399 in talking to a psychiatrist later on at the Vacaville 197 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:12.399 Medical Center, she told me she had talked to her 198 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.559 sex offenders at the medical center and they all said 199 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:18.799 you had better catch him because he wants to kill. 200 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:25.279 And I asked her why hasn't he and she said, well, 201 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.720 he does not yet have the justification. Once he gets 202 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:30.960 the justification, he's going to kill. And I said, will 203 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:33.279 he kill every time? And she said no, but the 204 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:38.240 justification will be less each time. So Carrie Frank that 205 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:42.879 was the one thing that she really had in her 206 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:47.639 mind during all of this was she was going to die. 207 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.759 And that's what he put in each one of their minds, 208 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:54.080 whether it was the woman or the man, and the woman, 209 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:57.240 they were going to die. 210 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.720 Now was Carrie compliant to his orders? Was she? Or 211 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:04.960 was she struggling? What was no? What would she ought 212 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:05.200 to do? 213 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:09.519 She was compliant because she was extremely frightened. She did 214 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.519 what she had to do to stay alive. And in 215 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.320 talking to some of them. That's what I told him, 216 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.840 that you had to go along with it. If not, 217 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.960 you would have died. And that's the way it was 218 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.440 up until he started the killings. 219 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:33.360 What was the general size of this man in terms 220 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:35.919 of her just carry Frank's description of him, sort of 221 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:36.559 weigh and height. 222 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:41.600 He was about five nine five ten and probably about 223 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.399 one hundred and seventy pounds. And they all come out 224 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:52.200 about the same way and felt that he was not old, 225 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:58.360 could have been anywhere from nineteen twenty five years old. 226 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.200 And other than that, they couldn't really tell because they 227 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:06.240 didn't see him. He always wore the mask, he always 228 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:12.000 wore gloves. We never get fingerprints from him, and never 229 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:15.759 got a real good description of him. And what he 230 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.960 would do is he would use a flashlight to wake 231 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.759 them up a lot of times, and he would either 232 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:27.000 tap on the doorsill or he would say something to 233 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:32.000 them and shine the light in their eyes. And then 234 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.639 a lot of times he would blindfold them. But he 235 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:38.120 would put them on their stomachs and tie their hands 236 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:43.080 behind their back extremely tight, and on Carrie Frank along 237 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.919 with the rest of them, it cut the blood circulation 238 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:50.120 off to their hands very very painful. 239 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:59.120 No, how long did the attack? How long would this 240 00:14:59.159 --> 00:14:59.960 attack last? 241 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.639 It would depend It could last two to three hours. 242 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:10.919 It depends on what was going on. If it was 243 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:14.600 a single female, then obviously it didn't take as long 244 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:17.799 as if there was a man in the house. And 245 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:24.440 sometimes what you'll find in reading the book, sometimes if 246 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:28.000 things were not going exactly the way that he wanted 247 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:35.080 them to, he would leave and he had this system 248 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:36.600 going and he had to follow it. 249 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:41.360 Now, getting back to carry Frank, how is it that 250 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.320 she escapes and she believes that she's going to die, 251 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.759 so she acts accordingly when she has an opportunity. He's 252 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.519 ransacking the place. Tell us what happens. 253 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:58.360 Well, while he is ransacking, she is listening, but she's 254 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:07.000 not doing anything. And she was just that night. She 255 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.240 was just looking forward to a good night. And then 256 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:11.000 he comes in. 257 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.600 Okay, round two. Name something that's not boring. 258 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:20.399 Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire. 259 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:25.919 Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for chumba casino. 260 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:27.559 Chum. 261 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.480 That's right, chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino 262 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:32.840 style games joined today and playing for free for your 263 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:34.720 chance to redeem some serious prizes. 264 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:40.399 Chum Chumba Casino dot com eighty plus stirs the conditions 265 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:40.919 the busy. 266 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:48.080 Website retails, and it just was horrible. For the house 267 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:53.320 obviously was lonely because her father was not there, and 268 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:59.320 she fell asleep in the room, and just out of 269 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:06.119 the darkness, this figure came in. And when he stood 270 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:10.359 in the in the house, like I say, it's just uh, 271 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:15.759 he was half naked, moved through the house and went 272 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:20.279 to her room. And in this case, he tapped on 273 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:25.519 the uh on the doorway and that woke carry up, 274 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.559 brought her out of a sound sleep, and her bedroom 275 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:34.799 light flashed on. He turned that on, and she was 276 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.720 just scared to death. Dulled her senses, and she said 277 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.079 she looked into his eyes, although like I say, he 278 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.920 had a mask, but she could see into his eyes. 279 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:47.319 She could see the knife that he had. She knew 280 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:51.720 that he uh had gloves on, and he just continued 281 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:56.960 tapping against the door frame, and he had an erect penis, 282 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:03.200 and that obviously her attention. But again she described it 283 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:07.400 as very small, and she said that she was unable 284 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.440 to form thoughts. And he leaped onto her bed and 285 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:13.599 she tried to pull the covers up over her head. 286 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:17.720 And to protect herself from what she felt was like 287 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:23.559 an awful nightmare. And unfortunately the nightmare didn't leave, and 288 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:29.359 he took the blankets off of her and he just 289 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:38.599 stared at her and her she said her ears were ringing, 290 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:41.400 and he told her if you make one move, if 291 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:44.279 you make one sound, I'll stick this knife in you. 292 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:49.279 And she said that when he talked, and she mentioned 293 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.720 the same as others, that it seemed like he was 294 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:58.160 talking through clenched teeth. And he just moved to the 295 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.599 side of her bed and pointed at her nightgown and 296 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:08.359 said take it off. And unfortunately, at that time it 297 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.680 was her period, and he told her to take the 298 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:14.680 tampacts out. It didn't seem to bother him in the least. 299 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:19.240 He just whispered take it out. And they told her 300 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:24.359 told her to roll over and grabbed her arms and 301 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:28.079 she could feel the gloved hands and the rope just 302 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:31.240 bit into her wrists like it does with all of them. 303 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:36.880 From then on, she kept her eyes closed, said she 304 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:39.079 didn't want to open them, she didn't want to look 305 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:43.440 at him. She just wanted to go away, and said 306 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.160 it wasn't the rape that she would remember most. It 307 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.240 wasn't the rape that would make her want to scream 308 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.880 and leave in the middle of the night. It was 309 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.279 a terror he left her with, and that terror was 310 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.000 that she was going to die, and that was one 311 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.319 one of the things that she could not get out 312 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:07.079 of her mind. And he kept asking her, do you 313 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.640 have money? Do you have money? And when she tried 314 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:14.279 the answer, he told her to shut up. And she 315 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:18.319 could hear him rummaging in the bedroom, and this is 316 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:25.480 things that he did, and just tied her ankles up 317 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:28.519 so she couldn't get out of bed, and then rummaged 318 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.319 some more in the bedroom, and and he put the 319 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.119 knife near her eye and said, don't make a move 320 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.480 while I'm here, or I'll kill you. And he kept 321 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:44.119 telling her, I'll kill you, I'll kill you, and she 322 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.880 just the way that he did on this one here 323 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.599 we believe, and we're pretty sure of this. He talked 324 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.240 as though there was somebody else in the room with him, 325 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:01.480 in the house with him, But I don't think that 326 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:04.920 that was happening. I think it was him and this 327 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:11.359 was just something that he tried, and that was it. 328 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:16.960 And it's kind of interesting that he must have been 329 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:21.359 interesting the police that he wasn't that interested about DNA. 330 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:24.279 But then we're talking about nineteen seventy six though, But 331 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.039 he's not very cautious. He doesn't use a condom. 332 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.240 Well, we didn't have DNA back then, We didn't know 333 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:35.720 about DNA back then, so there really wasn't a problem 334 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:40.799 that way. There was nothing that could have helped the 335 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:43.680 only thing that we did find out was that he 336 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.480 was a non secretor, and non secrets about twenty percent 337 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.920 of the population, and through non secrets you can't get 338 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:55.920 the blood type through any secretion, So I'm sure he 339 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:59.839 didn't know he was a non secret But other than that, 340 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.880 if we had not kept this evidence, we never would 341 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.599 have been able to figure out anything about him. And 342 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:12.079 so he didn't have to worry about that, and he 343 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:15.880 didn't worry about it. And like I say, he lubricated 344 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:21.599 himself on these attacks, and sometimes he brought the lubricant 345 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:23.640 with him, and sometimes he used what they had in 346 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:28.119 the bathroom. Sometimes he would break into the house when 347 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:33.119 they weren't home and set it up and leave shoelaces 348 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.400 hid in someplace and leave a door or a window 349 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:41.279 unlocked that normally wasn't unlocked, and then he would come 350 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:45.920 back later and when once they fell asleep, same thing 351 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:50.359 with Kerry Frank. He waited until she was asleep. I'm 352 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:55.200 sure he was outside that house for a long time 353 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.200 waiting for her to go to sleep. This isn't something 354 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.599 that that he would just arrive at the house and 355 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.759 go in and with carry Frank and with others. The 356 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:10.599 hang up phone calls that they received is something that 357 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.160 showed up in a lot of them also, so we 358 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:18.440 know that he was in the neighborhoods. He was canvassing 359 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:23.799 the neighborhoods, and he would see somebody that would get 360 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:26.720 into his mind and that's where he was going to go. 361 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.759 And my feeling is that once he made up his 362 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:34.759 mind who he was going after, he would get that person. 363 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.359 And like I've said, I believe that if he had to, 364 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.400 he would have gone down the chimney. But he was 365 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:44.119 going to go into that house one way or the other, 366 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:46.200 and he was going after that person. 367 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.200 Now we just talk about carry Frank, but you were 368 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.200 talking about already talking about the similarities. Did he use 369 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:57.480 sort of carry Frank or did it seem like the 370 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:02.319 first rapes were sort of attempt Late he seemed to 371 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.119 work out whatever little challenges he had. And then but 372 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:11.599 you say he proceeded fairly methodically and carefully, and if 373 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:14.640 he thought something was off, he would leave. So tell 374 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:21.160 us as it progresses in nineteen seventy six, what becomes 375 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.640 his sort of You've already talked about his m O. 376 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:26.160 But is it very similar? And were the first rate 377 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:28.960 sort of a template of success? And so he continues 378 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:30.839 like that, tell us how it really works. 379 00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:34.319 Well. My feeling on it is that he had to 380 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:36.279 have known what he was going to do before he 381 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:42.440 put this together. As I got into it and was 382 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:45.079 working on the task force, I thought nobody could have 383 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.599 just started out this way, And we know through psychiatrists 384 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:50.559 and all that that most of them start out with 385 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:58.359 leaving Tom's and then maybe go to killing animals or 386 00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:01.599 whatever and then get into this. But my feeling was 387 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:04.559 that because of the way that he did it and 388 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.759 the template that he had, it was a good thing. 389 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.000 That maybe he had been in prison for something else 390 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.319 and had worked this out with other prisoners and figured 391 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:17.200 out the best way to do it. Because of that, 392 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.640 I got the names of pearl Lees over a six 393 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:22.039 month period and went through them. Didn't do me any good, 394 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:25.519 So maybe that wasn't it. But he did have this 395 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:31.119 plan worked out and he stayed with that plan. Now, 396 00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:34.160 when he first started, obviously it was a single female, 397 00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:38.799 and I think he wanted to be known. He wanted 398 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:43.039 this out there, he wanted the publicity, and as the 399 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:46.799 newspaper did finally pick it up and put in there 400 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:51.720 that there was always single females and no male in 401 00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:55.279