WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.399 --> 00:00:03.120 It's Maria's MutS and Stuff. 2 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:04.719 What a great idea. 3 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:13.240 On iHeartRadio, Welcome to Maria's Mutts and Stuff and with 4 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:17.519 me is author Christopher Brown. He's also a lawyer, but 5 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:20.879 he has his new book out, A Natural History of 6 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:25.079 Empty Lots Field Notes from urban edgelands, back alleys and 7 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:28.160 other wild places. I love that big, long title. By 8 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:31.640 the way, thank you so thank you for this, for 9 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:35.399 the book, and for chatting. So let's go from the beginning. 10 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:37.439 What made you decide to write this book? 11 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:41.479 I you know, I spent almost twenty years of my 12 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:47.640 adult life, initially by accident, later on purpose, exploring the 13 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:52.280 little pockets of wild space that exists in the cities, 14 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.600 and then kind of learning how to find them, saying 15 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:04.840 how much wild nature could like rebound and find habitat 16 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:08.719 in these kinds of spaces, and then learning how much 17 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:14.519 kind of interesting, charismatic, fascinating wildlife could be found there, 18 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:18.719 and you know, learning how to better go about kind 19 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:23.599 of facilitating the serendipity of having encounters with wildlife. 20 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:26.840 You know, everything from you know, coyotes and. 21 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:32.560 Raptors to more exotic creatures and even smaller creatures like 22 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:36.480 you know, fascinating little insects that flutter around on our 23 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:39.439 wildfires down here in Texas where we are, and so, 24 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:43.040 and I'm also a novelist, and I wanted to sort 25 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:46.879 of figure out a way to write a book that 26 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:51.040 helped the reader kind of experience some of the wonders 27 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:53.799 of these kinds of places, to maybe learn how to 28 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:57.519 see them, and share some of the lessons that I 29 00:01:57.640 --> 00:01:59.519 learned in there, and the hope that they might help 30 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:04.159 other people, well, you know, find some useful, actionable information 31 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:06.640 and hopefully tell an interesting story along the way. 32 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:07.280 Right. 33 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:10.479 So, I mean this whole thing started you were looking 34 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:13.000 at a house, is that correct? And then it was 35 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.199 out of your price range, and then you saw a 36 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:16.120 piece of property. 37 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:20.080 Am I following right? And then you see that yeah? 38 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:22.120 Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the big part of the story. 39 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.560 Had started just as a young dad with. 40 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:29.280 First my son and then my daughter and sort of 41 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.159 looking things to do, looking for things to do with 42 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:33.840 my kid or kids. 43 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:37.439 And instead of driving out into the countryside or you know, 44 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:39.919 going to the mall or something, I got the idea 45 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:43.759 of like exploring the little creek behind the dead end 46 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:46.360 street where we lived and seeing what we could find there, 47 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:49.520 and that one thing led to another, and we found 48 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.520 so much interesting stuff exploring these kinds of spaces, going 49 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:57.159 paddling on a little stretch of urban river, that we 50 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:01.240 decided to try to find a place where we could 51 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:05.439 live in that kind of urban wilderness and actually cultivate 52 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:08.199 that wild urban. 53 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.759 Nature right in the you know, in our own backyard. 54 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:13.360 And so I found, yeah, as you as you as 55 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:17.639 you noted, this kind of brown field lot in East Austin, 56 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.800 Texas that was bisected by an old petroleum pipeline, and 57 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:25.319 set out to rehabilitating a lot, partly by taking that 58 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.919 amazing restorative power of nature that you can see often 59 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:34.159 in the untended empty lots, and and bring back the 60 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:36.439 kind of prairie ecosystem that once was here. 61 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:38.680 And the results were pretty remarkable. 62 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:41.159 Yeah, And I mean it kind of when I was 63 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:43.319 reading your book, I just it made me feel hopeful, 64 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.560 And I think that was your intent. I mean, because 65 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.439 it's right, Yeah, Because I mean it's really easy for 66 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:51.599 all of us to just be like, oh, the environment, 67 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:56.240 oh no, and pollution and we're losing species of animals. 68 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:58.199 And then I read. 69 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:00.439 Your book and I'm like, oh, he did this, and wow, 70 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:03.319 you can find this bug and he found you know, 71 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:07.159 this this animal or or this insect like you said, 72 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:08.520 And it was just I don't know, I just got 73 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:13.319 the feeling that it's a feeling of hope that not 74 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:17.000 everything is lost, not everything just because big glass, ugly 75 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:18.079 buildings are going up. 76 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:19.519 It's it's not the end. 77 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:23.439 There's you know, there's positive stuff down the road. 78 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:25.319 And that that was what I got out of it. 79 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:27.160 Oh, I'm so glad to hear you say that, because 80 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:28.839 that was absolutely the intent. 81 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.240 Well, at the same time, taking a clear eyed view 82 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.000 of like you know what, of how out of balance 83 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:41.240 sometimes our relationship with nature is sure providing the reader 84 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.920 a way to like see that the way we think 85 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:48.079 about the climate future, which sometimes feels like it's like 86 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:50.240 we don't even think there's going to be a future 87 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:54.160 so dire, right, and we all feel such a lack 88 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:56.319 of agency in what's going on. 89 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:59.560 We're sort of waiting around for you know, the. 90 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:03.519 Big institutions that kind of control our lives in a 91 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.439 way to take action. And kind of a lesson of 92 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:10.639 this book is that one you don't have to get 93 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:12.920 in your car and drive out to a national park 94 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:17.680 to find wild nature it's actually right nearby wherever you live. 95 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:21.079 And two that you don't have to wait for others 96 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:22.680 to take action to start. 97 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.399 Healing some of the damage we've caused. 98 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:30.240 Whether you're talking about climate, you know, warming or biodiversity 99 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.480 lass you can do that. Whether you have a little 100 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:36.600 apartment with the balcony or you know, do you want 101 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:39.079 to do a little gorilla gardening like my friend who 102 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.560 does it, you know, a patch of dirt under the 103 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:43.079 untrained queens. 104 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.560 Where I love that you got to work every day, 105 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:46.319 right or. 106 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:52.519 Yeah, or you know, a conventional backyard. And people are 107 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:54.439 doing this kind of stuff all over the place. 108 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:55.959 People are doing it in their businesses. 109 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:59.560 People are putting green roofs on buildings not only because 110 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:03.800 they're you know, green and beautiful, but because they have 111 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:09.040 you know, economic and thermal benefits. And people are and 112 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:13.480 you know, in both projects large and small, going. 113 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:16.399 About these kinds of rewildings where you bring. 114 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.360 Back you know, you just cultivate a bio you know, 115 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:24.800 your own particular flavor of biodiversity wherever you are, usually 116 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:29.160 with native plants to start, but and very quickly you 117 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.160 find just astonishing results and it can kind of feel 118 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:33.879 like Avatar and so. 119 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:36.600 Sure if more people, as more people start. 120 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:40.720 Doing that kind of thing, yeah, the impacts can really 121 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:42.319 be profound. 122 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:45.439 Right, And I think you're positive, Yeah, and positive, And 123 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:48.279 I think that's where your book really shows that it 124 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:49.160 can be done. 125 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:49.600 Yeah. 126 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:53.720 I mean I'm not a I'm not a professional gardener, no, right, right, 127 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:59.759 I'm not a scientist. I'm a like lawyer who writes books, right, 128 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:04.519 who practices law, whichever order you want to put it in. 129 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:08.639 And I didn't know anything about how to like make 130 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:09.480 up prairie. 131 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:09.800 You know. 132 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:10.560 I bought this. 133 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:13.879 Kind of gnarly, you know, little urban acre that I 134 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:16.519 could affordably because it was so gnarly, and it was 135 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:20.160 like the death of the financial crisis, right, And I was. 136 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:22.959 Like, oh, but turns out it's pretty easy, you know. 137 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:26.480 You. I mean, it was basically like we put black 138 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.680 plastic on the ground for one season and it sort 139 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:32.120 of all the invasive plants came up and they found 140 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:33.399 no sun and they sort of. 141 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:34.240 Died in the ground. 142 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:37.879 And then we tilled it and put these you know, 143 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:42.120 bags of like a mix of native seeds of the 144 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:44.800 prairie archetype that used to cover a ninety nine percent 145 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:47.319 of the region where we live or used to cover 146 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:51.279 hundred percent, and now nine percent is gone. And and 147 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:55.000 and within six months we had our own little successional 148 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:59.720 prairie right outside our back door. And it's just it's 149 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:02.319 a remarkably easy thing to do. So it really is 150 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:05.759 very much within anybody's accessibility, I. 151 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:06.600 Think, right right. 152 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.240 And I think they would learn like I did from 153 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.199 your book if they want to do it the same way. 154 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:15.759 I was just some things I was like, oh, I 155 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:17.079 would never even think of that. 156 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:19.160 And I'm thinking particular. 157 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:22.680 When you came upon a dead animal, and it's like, 158 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:24.399 what do you do about that? 159 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:27.480 So let's talk a little bit about that, about that experience. 160 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:31.000 Well, I came upon I mean, I've come upon dead animals, 161 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:33.240 and I've come up upon like wounded animals. 162 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:35.919 It's the wounded animals that are the heartest. 163 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.279 Exactly like the owl you said, right. 164 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:42.639 Yeah, I found a barred owl, you know, not long 165 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:45.720 after I'd had my first like encounter with a healthy 166 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:47.159 bard owl, kind of down. 167 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:48.879 In the woods behind a door factory. 168 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:52.840 Go figure sitting on a branch of a willow tree 169 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:59.159 over a little sort of anthropocene lagoon where like drainage 170 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:02.120 pipes emptied out at the in the floodplant of an 171 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.519 urban river, and I was like, well, that's a really 172 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:07.320 exceptionally beautiful animal. 173 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.279 And yeah, when you have those encounters with. 174 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:13.639 These creatures, it's sort of it's and you're sort of 175 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.320 you know, having a little momentary stare down with them. 176 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.399 It really gives you a connection with them and an 177 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:21.200 investment in their presence. 178 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:22.039 It's profound. 179 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:25.639 And so then when a few months later, like driving 180 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:28.360 back from dinner with friends, my wife and I encountered 181 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:31.159 this owl like stranded at the side of the road, 182 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:35.399 we perhaps unwisely to turn around, stop and pull our 183 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:37.399 car and to start her card in the middle of 184 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:41.559 a toll way bridge with no shoulder and put the 185 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:44.159 hazards on and try to save this owl. And found 186 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:49.639 that that's also not that unlike bunting a payer in 187 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:52.039 your yard. Maybe isn't a thing to do as an amateur. 188 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:55.320 It's a little more challenging, but it gave us a 189 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:59.399 sense of like how hazardous the city can be. 190 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:02.200 For a while, sure, I mean, yeah, you see we 191 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:04.080 all for bust of us. 192 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:07.320 Our main experience of you know, urban wildlife anymore is 193 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:13.960 with seeing roadkill while driving to work. But it also 194 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:16.759 gives you a sense of how resilient this wildlife is. 195 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:19.240 Not just the way that eventually that owl was able 196 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:22.879 to recover without me fiddling with it and take off 197 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.960 and fly away, but the way things like, you know, 198 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:30.399 everything from the raccoons, which we're all familiar with in 199 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:34.320 the American landscape. One of our weirder native animals have 200 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:38.759 like learned to evolve more rapidly than their country cousins 201 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:42.720 because they're constantly adapt figuring out how to adapt to 202 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:46.000 the challenges the city presents them, like how to get 203 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:51.480 bunging cords off a trash can. Things like that, how 204 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:55.080 the cardinals that nest in the eaves of our green 205 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:58.879 roof used like industrial materials they harvest from the nearby 206 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:02.720 factories to build their nests, you know, like insulation used 207 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:03.639 from packaging. 208 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:04.240 Wow. 209 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:08.240 Or the way that coyotes have like completely overtaken the 210 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:10.720 urban spaces that you know, when I was a kid 211 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:14.799 in the seventies used to be like occupied by stray dogs, 212 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.879 mostly gotten under control, and now like even you think, 213 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:20.720 like Chicago, who knew. 214 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:22.720 But there are I think thousands of. 215 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:27.120 Coyotes living in Cook County, and hundreds of them right 216 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.480 in the heart of the loop, not scavenging like the 217 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.240 straight dogs did, but hunting the smaller mammals that you know, 218 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:36.879 live off our trash. So it's a it's a fascinating 219 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:39.679 lessen in resilience once you start paying attention to this stuff. 220 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:40.720 It is it is. 221 00:11:40.919 --> 00:11:42.919 And so what was it like for you the first time, 222 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:44.919 your first coyote sighting? 223 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:47.000 What was that like, I mean, my. 224 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:51.600 First coyote sighting, especially in the city, was it was 225 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:58.080 really it was slightly scary, super intense, a little bit mystical, 226 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.519 even because coyotes, when you see them in my experience 227 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:04.759 at least, they have a way of like you can 228 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:08.720 see why the indigenous peoples of the America is often 229 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.159 you know, ascribed to them the powers of tricksters, because 230 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:14.000 they have a way of even like there's like this 231 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:18.120 silver undertone to their coat mixed with other colors, and 232 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.679 they have a way of kind of camouflaging themselves in 233 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:21.919 the woods, but. 234 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:22.759 Also in the city. 235 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:26.159 They like or especially in the winter, they like almost 236 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:28.639 like baffle the light and sometimes you won't even notice 237 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:30.559 that it's a coyote kind of moving through your frame 238 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:32.799 until they sort of stop and look at you and 239 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:35.840 let you kind of see their eyes and rostrum and 240 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:39.360 snout and then if you have a really like physically 241 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:44.960 near encounter, right, you see how Yeah, I kind of begged. 242 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.399 They often are at least the healthy ones, right, and 243 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:51.879 their wolf like right, it's just like and they just 244 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:55.799 like that experience of like, oh, like is still possible 245 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:59.039 in this world to encounter an animal that, you know, 246 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:03.360 another predator that bit in the right circumstances be able 247 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:06.720 to make hewits prey, right, And it just kind of 248 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:08.759 gets you out of your head and just seeing a wild, 249 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.840 wild animal like that, Like I saw My first one 250 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.440 I saw in the city was like crossing the railroad 251 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:20.480 tracks behind an Amtrak station on a Sunday morning at 252 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.519 the edge of downtown Austin, Texas. Wow, you know, fastest 253 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:27.639 growing city of an America. And here's the like walking 254 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:30.960 with my son to go get you know, get some breakfast, 255 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.240 and here's this canvity crossing our path, and it really 256 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:36.840 it takes you out of your head and kind of. 257 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.080 Put your life in a in a different context. If 258 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:41.720 that makes sense. 259 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:43.039 No, it totally does. 260 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.360 And I think it sort of takes away and not 261 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:49.000 saying that you are but the arrogance of humans when 262 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:51.120 you know what I mean, like, well, where's a arrogon 263 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:52.480 and where a top of the food chain. 264 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:56.759 But oh wait, there's a coyote near me? You know that? 265 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:01.559 Yeah, well, yeah, one coyote is an intense two or 266 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:06.600 three cooties, which I've experience is a lot more intense 267 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:09.279 because they really could take you. Then on it sure 268 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:11.679 you're hungry, and that's you have a little kid with 269 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:12.440 you or something. 270 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:13.159 Oh my goodness. 271 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:17.919 Yeah, it's it really ignites primal feelings. Of course, well 272 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:19.919 in the one time, and then on the one hand 273 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:23.240 it's a little bit scary, but it's also like, oh afterwards, 274 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:25.360 you're like, oh, I feel a little bit more alive. 275 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:26.759 I knew you were going to say that. 276 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:29.240 Yes, yeah, of course, because it was like your brush 277 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:33.320 with nature. I'm sure like all your nerve endings are 278 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.080 you know, all flaring, but it's your brush with nature 279 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:38.720 and yeah, invigorates you. 280 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:42.159 Yeah, and you just you stop like actively thinking in 281 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.440 the way we kind of go through our lives. It's 282 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:47.960 you're not language and words are no longer in your head. 283 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:51.360 You're not kind of looking at yourself in some orbital mirror. 284 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:58.039 You're just like in this immediate sensory experience and all 285 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.240 encounters with nature. I think when you're sort of at 286 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.679 least opening yourself. 287 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:07.320 Up to them, even in like extremely urban environments, they 288 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.440 can have that impact. Maybe none of the scary, but 289 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.600 just like that get you out of your own self 290 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:17.240 absorption and to just see the wonder of what's around 291 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:20.200 you and see your place in the world, whether it's 292 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.120 your places the descendant of Haman d who had to 293 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.039 worry about the big leopards, you know, coming and taking 294 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.320 them from their tree and having them for dinner, right, 295 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:33.240 or just as you know, seeing how those insects that 296 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.440 are pollinating the plants along the street in front of 297 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.399 your house are actually like sustaining the entire ecosystem around you. 298 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:40.600 Yeah, no, it's true. 299 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:44.879 I mean I just remember interviewing years ago someone about birds, 300 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:47.519 and she said, just go for a walk in the 301 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:50.960 morning and pay attention to the birds, and you're going 302 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:54.039 to hear so many different birds and different calls, and 303 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.120 they're all talking if you pay attention. And I feel 304 00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:59.759 like that's the same thing that you said that you 305 00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:01.960 can across in this book. You just need to we 306 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:05.879 need to pay attention to nature because it's there it's 307 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:09.759 just I guess in our urban lives or just busy lives, 308 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:14.159 most people just kind of ignore it instead of embracing it. 309 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:16.799 Yeah, and absolutely. 310 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:19.919 And also there's a problem that I think a lot 311 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.840 of us feel like we're taught that you have to 312 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.759 have some special knowledge to be able to experience nature. 313 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:29.720 Like you you go out, you talk about birders, and 314 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:32.799 if you're not a burder and you go out with 315 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:34.360 a bunch of burders, you may. 316 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:36.960 Find that many of the serious birders. 317 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:38.799 Are going to kind of almost have a competition to 318 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.720 show who can name right that particular species faster than 319 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.399 the others, and who has more command of the book knowledge, 320 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:49.440 so that field or with plants or insects, so you 321 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:50.799 name it trees. 322 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:53.960 Right, yeah, and so but you don't need to You 323 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:57.559 can just go out like some eighteenth century naturalists and 324 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:02.039 have your own experience and that's right. What the heck 325 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:04.039 is that? That's really interesting? 326 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:08.240 Yeah, and then you can go look it up right exactly? Yeah, Yeah, no, 327 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:08.839 I agree. 328 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:10.839 I joke in the book that I say that like 329 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:15.119 taxonomy can be the enemy of wonder, meaning like having 330 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.079 to like name the thing first often like gets in 331 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:19.119 the way. 332 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.839 Of just experiencing. Sure yeah. 333 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:24.880 And so I think it's fun to just go out, 334 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:27.559 like you say, and just listen to see what you see. 335 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:28.240 Sure yeah. 336 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.400 And I think it goes full circle back to the 337 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.680 arrogance of being a human. You know, let's compete with 338 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.960 each other to see who can identify the most birds. No, 339 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.799 just open your eyes and open your ears, you know, 340 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:43.400 and just like take use all your senses and take 341 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.039 in nature, because it is out there. Whether you're in 342 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.559 suburbia or you're in a you know, an urban city, 343 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.839 it's out there. And you know, your book describes it 344 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.160 and explains to us really how it's it's very much 345 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.759 out there, regardless of you know, whoever's listening to this 346 00:17:58.880 --> 00:17:59.759 right now where. 347 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.240 They are, absolutely and it's easy to find it. You know. 348 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:07.960 There's like easy little tricks like look for the nearest creek. 349 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:12.039 Yeah, look for the nearest bit of watered other watershed. 350 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.400 Look for that empty lot or that sort of building 351 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.160 that hasn't been getting a lot. 352 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:22.680 Of care, and you know, go to the edges of 353 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:24.319 the park, not that they kind. 354 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:26.519 Of you know, maybe step off the trail a little bit, 355 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:28.599 or step off the sidewalk and see what you see. 356 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:32.480 But those places are out there, yeah, as you noted 357 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.880 every city and often like much closer than you think, 358 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.599 and you see them once you start looking for them. 359 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.359 So I gather, and of course that you feel positive 360 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:45.960 about our future, yes, with nature and the environment. 361 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:51.039 Yeah, I mean, I feel like people are waking up 362 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:56.519 to the importance of like living in balance. I think 363 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:03.880 that the experience during COVID lockdown, where so many people 364 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:09.720 were suddenly and kind of abruptly liberated from the daily 365 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:14.400 grind of going into the office and the constant you know, 366 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.799 human bubble of our eyes on each other, the kind 367 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:20.160 of constant surveilance of each other in a way that 368 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:23.079 we do, and contemporary urban life. 369 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.839 That were free to like, oh, like I could like 370 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.599 take a little break now and go for a long Yes, 371 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.319 structure my own day and go outside and see what's there. 372 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:36.519 I think that really awakened people on a kind of 373 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.559 a mass basis to like how easy it is to 374 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:42.599 without giving up you know, you know, you can still 375 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:46.240 get your work done, but you can integrate into daily life, 376 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:50.799 even if it's just for a few minutes, little experiences 377 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:51.400 of nature. 378 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:52.519 It's out there to. 379 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:57.400 Be enjoyed, and that doing so can really bring tremendous 380 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.240 balance to life. And that by doing the additional work 381 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:05.440 of like attending to our capacity to be better stewards 382 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:08.839 of nature, to help do these little healing kinds of 383 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:13.400 rewilding projects, you find you not only like helping nature, 384 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:15.480 you're kind of helping yourself run a way. It makes 385 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.200 you feel better and sure, and so I feel hopeful 386 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:22.480 that absolutely that. I mean, people are just in the 387 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:27.759 United Kingdom this earlier this year, they enacted legislation, this 388 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.200 was under the Conservative government before the elections. Are they 389 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:36.279 enacted new rules that for any new housing project or 390 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:40.640 office real estate project bigger than a single home, you 391 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.480 have to demonstrate after you finish the project that you've 392 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:47.519 achieved a ten percent net gain in biodiversity. 393 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:50.119 Oh wow, it's like wow, Well. 394 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.839 That's like, you know, not a bunch of you know, 395 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:55.599 you know, greenpeace types. 396 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.519 These are like, you know, kind of conservative politicians. 397 00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:02.079 Yes, and so if and so if we put in place, 398 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.200 you know, and like in this country, we have we 399 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:08.119 have a real housing crisis, right especially an affordable housing crisis. 400 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:12.640 And if we but you're seeing people talking about policy 401 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:16.039