1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: I want you to picture something, the most impossible locked 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,560 room mystery you can think of. But it's not a room. 3 00:00:08,679 --> 00:00:12,199 It's a fortress. A fortress on a rock, surrounded by 4 00:00:12,439 --> 00:00:14,880 you know, freezing, deadly water. 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:16,559 Speaker 2: The end of the line, exactly. 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: It's nineteen sixty two, it's early morning. A guard is 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,079 doing his rounds at Alcatraz, the place they send you, 8 00:00:22,199 --> 00:00:25,519 and you're literally too dangerous for anywhere else. He stops 9 00:00:25,559 --> 00:00:28,239 at a cell he sees a man sleeping or what 10 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,399 looks like a man's sleeping, right, and he reaches through 11 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,119 the bars with his nightstick to wake him up for 12 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,320 roll call. He gives the pillow a little tap, and 13 00:00:34,399 --> 00:00:37,119 the prisoner's head just rolls off. 14 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,439 Speaker 2: It literally falls onto the floor. He cracks open. I mean, 15 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:41,920 can you imagine being that guard. 16 00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:44,079 Speaker 1: For a split second, you must be thinking you've just 17 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,280 witnessed the most gruesome decapitation in history. But it's not blood, 18 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,439 it's it's soap, it's dust, it's paper. The prisoner is 19 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:52,719 just gone. 20 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 2: It's a moment that just shatters the entire reality of 21 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,479 a place like Alcatraz. It's not supposed to happen. 22 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: It's impossible, or okay, let's jump back fifty years. You're 23 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,319 the captain of the Titanic, the unsinkable ship. You get 24 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,439 a piece of paper, a wireless message that says, in 25 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,400 no uncertain terms, there is a monster made of ice 26 00:01:09,599 --> 00:01:10,599 directly ahead of you. 27 00:01:10,719 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: A literal field of them, not just one. 28 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: And you do the right thing. You hand this critical 29 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,920 warning to your boss, the chairman of the whole shipping line. 30 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,319 And he doesn't call a meeting, he doesn't order the 31 00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:23,439 ship to slow down. He just puts it in his pocket. 32 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 2: Like it's a receipt for a sandwich. 33 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: Or something exactly. And that one tiny action, yeah, it 34 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,680 might be the single moment upon which fifteen hundred lives depend. 35 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:34,439 Speaker 2: It's chilling. 36 00:01:34,879 --> 00:01:38,439 Speaker 1: Or one more for you, picture a metal detector, a 37 00:01:38,519 --> 00:01:41,920 really advanced one, just screaming its head off over a 38 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,920 patch of desert in the West Bank. The readings indicate 39 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,719 there are literally tons, thirty tons of gold sitting just 40 00:01:48,799 --> 00:01:50,079 a few feet under the dirt. 41 00:01:50,159 --> 00:01:52,239 Speaker 2: And you can see the spot, you know exactly where 42 00:01:52,239 --> 00:01:52,519 it is. 43 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: But because of politics, because of borders and treaties and 44 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,439 you know, ancient conflicts, nobody is allowed to pick up 45 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:00,319 a shovel. 46 00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:03,159 Speaker 2: And that is just a maddening thing about history, isn't it. 47 00:02:03,359 --> 00:02:05,480 Sometimes the X on the map is right there, it 48 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,599 to is staring you right in the face, but you 49 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:08,400 just can't dig. 50 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,479 Speaker 1: Welcome everyone to thrilling threads today. We aren't just telling stories. 51 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,800 We are pulling at the loose ends of history, the 52 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,120 threads that have been just sort of dangling for decades, 53 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:21,439 sometimes centuries. 54 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: In some of these threads, well, we're going to tie 55 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,520 them up pretty neatly using modern science, modern forensics and others. 56 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: They might just unravel everything we thought we knew. 57 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: We're covering a lot of ground today. Our sources are well, 58 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,800 they're pretty incredible. We've got the declassified forensic reports from 59 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,280 that nineteen sixty two Alcatraz escape. We've got transcripts from 60 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,319 the official British inquiry into the Titanic disaster. 61 00:02:44,599 --> 00:02:47,159 Speaker 1: We also have the DNA results which were sealed for 62 00:02:47,319 --> 00:02:50,840 years from the investigation into the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. 63 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,360 It's an amazing collection of material, it really is. And 64 00:02:54,439 --> 00:02:57,520 I have to say, looking at this first story, it 65 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,439 just reads like a heist movie script. Good one. I 66 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:02,639 find myself, you know, almost rooting for these guys, even 67 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,039 though I know I probably shouldn't. 68 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: It definitely has that cinematic beat, the system quality, which 69 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,159 is why I'm here. I have to be the buzz 70 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:12,560 gil voice of reason, the voice of reason. Yeah, I'm 71 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,599 bringing the cold hard facts, the cold water, you could say, 72 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,919 because while the story the escape is romantic, the logistics, 73 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,680 the reality of it, it's just brutal. 74 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into it. Let's set the scene Alcatraz, 75 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,680 the night of June eleventh, leading into the morning of 76 00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:33,960 June twelfth, nineteen sixty two. The main players here, these 77 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,520 weren't just your average criminals, were they. 78 00:03:35,639 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: No, not at all. You have Frank Morris, who is 79 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,680 absolutely the brains of this operation. His IQ was reportedly 80 00:03:41,719 --> 00:03:44,080 around one thirty three, which is, you know, in the 81 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,400 superior or a gifted range. So a genius, a criminal 82 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:48,919 genius for sure. He'd been in and out of the 83 00:03:48,919 --> 00:03:50,919 system since he was a kid. He was a foster 84 00:03:51,039 --> 00:03:53,680 child who bounced around a lot, eventually started robbing banks. 85 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:56,960 But the key thing about him he was a known 86 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,120 escape artist long before he ever got to the rock. 87 00:03:59,199 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: And he wasn't alone the muscle, right, He. 88 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,479 Speaker 2: Had the Anglin brothers, John and Clarence. There are a 89 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,879 pair of bank robbers from Georgia grew up in the 90 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:09,639 swamps of Florida, so they were tough and they were inseparable. 91 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:11,759 In fact, they kept trying to break out of other 92 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,400 federal prisons like Levenworth. 93 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: So the prison system's solution was to put them all together. 94 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: It's that of incredible when you think about it. They 95 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:24,040 basically put the three most escape prone, escape obsessed men 96 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:28,199 in the entire federal system into adjacent cells in what 97 00:04:28,319 --> 00:04:30,639 was supposed to be the most secure prison on earth. 98 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: It's a huge management error in hindsight. But there was 99 00:04:33,879 --> 00:04:37,000 a fourth man, Alan West. He's the one who gets 100 00:04:37,079 --> 00:04:38,199 left behind, right. 101 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: And Alan West is maybe the most important character in 102 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,879 this story for us, the historians, because without him we 103 00:04:44,959 --> 00:04:47,240 probably wouldn't know half of these incredible details. 104 00:04:47,319 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: It's the snitch. 105 00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: He's the informant. Yes, he got stuck in his cell 106 00:04:51,079 --> 00:04:53,759 on the night of the escape. His vent grille was 107 00:04:53,759 --> 00:04:56,600 still concreted in too tightly. So when the FBI comes 108 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,920 asking questions, he tells them everything in exchange for you know, 109 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,759 not getting Punnis for his role. 110 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,079 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the plan, because this is the 111 00:05:04,079 --> 00:05:06,160 part that blows my mind. This wasn't a smash and grab. 112 00:05:06,199 --> 00:05:11,399 This was engineering. How do you possibly drill through reinforced 113 00:05:11,439 --> 00:05:14,399 concrete in a prison cell without anyone hearing you? 114 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is you don't use a drill, 115 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:19,399 at least not at first. You use a. 116 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: Spoon, a spoon from the cafeteria. 117 00:05:22,079 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: Dozens of them, stolen over months, They filed down the handles, 118 00:05:26,639 --> 00:05:30,399 sharpened them into these little makeshift chisels. But the real genius, 119 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,360 and this is a detail that often gets overlooked, was 120 00:05:33,399 --> 00:05:33,839 the motor. 121 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,759 Speaker 1: Wait, they had a motor, a power tool they did. 122 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: They managed to steal a small motor from a vacuum cleaner. 123 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,480 Some sources say it might have been a fan motor 124 00:05:42,519 --> 00:05:45,319 from the workshop and they rigged it up, probably with 125 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,000 the battery, to create this very crude power drill. As incredible, 126 00:05:50,079 --> 00:05:52,800 but mostly it was just backbreaking, manual labor. They would 127 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,000 work during the PRISM's designated music hour, ah. 128 00:05:55,639 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: So the sound of accordions and guitars would cover the 129 00:05:58,079 --> 00:05:59,319 scraping precisely. 130 00:05:59,519 --> 00:06:01,439 Speaker 2: They would just pick away at the concrete around the 131 00:06:01,439 --> 00:06:03,199 air events at the back of their cells, night. 132 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,079 Speaker 1: After night, and the prison itself, the building actually helped them, 133 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,399 didn't it I read that the salt air was a 134 00:06:09,439 --> 00:06:10,279 massive factor. 135 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,319 Speaker 2: A huge factor. You have to remember, Alcatraz is an 136 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,439 island in the middle of a saltwater bay. It's constantly 137 00:06:16,439 --> 00:06:19,319 being battered by salt spray and fog. The metal in 138 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,199 the walls, the rebar, the ventilation shafts, everything was corroded. 139 00:06:23,519 --> 00:06:26,040 The concrete was getting old and crumbly. 140 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,319 Speaker 1: So it wasn't like shipping through solid rock. 141 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:29,759 Speaker 2: Not at all. If this had been a brand new 142 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,879 facility in say the Arizona Desert, this plan fails on 143 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,240 day one. But the very infrastructure of Alcatraz was in 144 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,399 a way rotting from the inside out. 145 00:06:40,639 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: So okay, they're widening the holes night after night, But 146 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,879 how do you hide a giant hole in your wall 147 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,240 in a place where guards are walking by constantly doing counts. 148 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 2: This is where the artistry comes in, the real con 149 00:06:51,759 --> 00:06:55,959 man genius. They made fake grill covers out of what cardboard, 150 00:06:56,199 --> 00:06:59,480 Just painted cardboard. Alan West, the fourth Man. He managed 151 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,240 to steal some paint from a work detail, specifically the 152 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,800 same shade of green as the cell walls. So they'd 153 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,800 work all night chipping away, and then right before the 154 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:12,480 morning count they'd slot this fake painted cardboard grill into. 155 00:07:12,319 --> 00:07:14,879 Speaker 1: Place, and the guards never noticed, never noticed. 156 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: It's a testament to how routine the checks must have become. 157 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:19,759 You see what you expect. 158 00:07:19,399 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: To see, which brings us back to the heads, the 159 00:07:21,839 --> 00:07:23,839 dummy heads in the beds. 160 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: The decoy heads. This is the detail that just it 161 00:07:26,759 --> 00:07:29,560 gets under your skin. They use that mixture we talked about, soap, 162 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:33,439 toilet paper and the concrete dust they had been chipping away. 163 00:07:33,839 --> 00:07:36,000 They made a kind of homemade stucco. 164 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: And sculpted them into faces. 165 00:07:37,319 --> 00:07:40,639 Speaker 2: Sculpted them, painted them with flesh tones from the prison hobbykit, 166 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:41,600 put them on the pillows. 167 00:07:41,639 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: But the hair, the hair is the part that really 168 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:45,399 creeps me out. 169 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 2: It shows you the level of obsession, the meticulous planning. 170 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,279 Clarence Anglin worked in the prison barbershop. He was a sweeper. 171 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,800 Oh yes, he pocketed real human hair from the floor, 172 00:07:57,439 --> 00:07:59,879 snuck it back to the cell block and they paints 173 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,199 stakingly gluted onto these dummy heads. 174 00:08:02,399 --> 00:08:04,079 Speaker 1: Why I mean that seems like overkill. 175 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: Think about it. It's the middle of the night. A 176 00:08:05,959 --> 00:08:08,680 guard is walking in the tier. He shines his flashlight 177 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,839 into the cell. What's he going to see? He's going 178 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,800 to see the faint glint of light off of real 179 00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:17,319 hair on a pillow. It sells the whole illusion. It's 180 00:08:17,439 --> 00:08:18,600 absolutely brilliant. 181 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,199 Speaker 1: Deeply unsettling, but you're right, it's brilliant. So the night 182 00:08:22,279 --> 00:08:26,120 comes June eleventh, they put the decoy heads in the beds. 183 00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:29,120 They squeeze through the holes they've made. They're in the 184 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:30,959 utility corridor behind the cells. 185 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,279 Speaker 2: What now, Now it's a vertical climb. They have to 186 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,559 scale the plumbing pipes three stories straight up in the dark, 187 00:08:37,639 --> 00:08:39,120 in this narrow, dusty. 188 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:39,799 Speaker 1: Shaft and at the top. 189 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:41,759 Speaker 2: At the top is a roof. But to get there 190 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,600 they have to get through a ventilator shaft which is 191 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,240 bolted shut from the outside. They've been working on this 192 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:49,519 for weeks too. During that same music hour, they'd been 193 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,279 up there filing the way at the bolts. 194 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: So they get the vent open, they're on the roof. 195 00:08:53,639 --> 00:08:56,559 They scramble across and then down a drain pipe on 196 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,200 the side of the building, and now they're at the 197 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,200 water's edge. This has to be the critical failure point 198 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:03,879 for any escape from Alcatraz. 199 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: This is where every other attempt failed. The San Francisco 200 00:09:08,039 --> 00:09:10,720 Bay is not a swimming pool, The water temperature is 201 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,279 maybe fifty to fifty four degrees fahrenheit year round. 202 00:09:15,519 --> 00:09:19,039 Speaker 1: That's cold enough to induce hypothermia in less than half 203 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:19,639 an hour. 204 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,519 Speaker 2: Twenty minutes maybe less. And the currents, the currents are 205 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,639 just ripping through there at about six knots. It's a 206 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,279 conveyor belt straight out of the Pacific Ocean. If you 207 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:30,799 fall in, you were gone. 208 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,039 Speaker 1: But they didn't plan to swim. 209 00:09:32,039 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: They had a raft, the famous raincoat raft. 210 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: This part is just as ingenious as the rest. How 211 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,919 did they build a boat in a prison cell. 212 00:09:40,279 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: They stole over fifty rubberized raincoats from the prison factory. 213 00:09:44,879 --> 00:09:47,000 And this wasn't just you know, tying them together. They 214 00:09:47,039 --> 00:09:49,320 got their hands on contact cement, probably from one of 215 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,600 the workshops. They stitched the seams, and then they did 216 00:09:51,639 --> 00:09:52,320 something amazing. 217 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: What's up. 218 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: They laid the glued seams against the hot steam pipes 219 00:09:55,519 --> 00:09:57,600 that ran through the cell block. They used the heat 220 00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:00,440 to vulcanize the rubber, to melt the glo and the 221 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,639 rubber together to create a waterproof seal. 222 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: They essentially build a professional grade inflatable raft, a Zodiac 223 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:09,960 boat in. 224 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: Their prison cells. Yes, they even made life veests out 225 00:10:13,519 --> 00:10:16,480 of the leftover material and for inflation. This is my 226 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:20,519 favorite part. They took a musical instrument, a concertina, which 227 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:21,440 is like a small. 228 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,639 Speaker 1: Accordion, and turned it into a pump, turned it. 229 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 2: Into a bellows to pump air into the raft once 230 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:27,440 they got to the shore. 231 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,159 Speaker 1: It's just the level of forethought is staggering. So they 232 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,799 launched sometime around ten zero zero pm and they paddle 233 00:10:34,799 --> 00:10:36,399 off into the fog and they. 234 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: Just vanish, gone into the night. 235 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: Okay, So for years the official story was pretty cut 236 00:10:42,399 --> 00:10:45,480 and dried. The FBI investigated and they closed their case 237 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,000 in nineteen seventy nine. Their conclusion was presumed drowned. 238 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: And to be fair, there's some pretty compelling evidence for 239 00:10:51,519 --> 00:10:54,080 that theory, like what well, a few weeks after the escape, 240 00:10:54,519 --> 00:10:57,759 a Norwegian freighter spotted a body floating in the ocean. 241 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,240 It was about twenty miles past the Golden Gate Bridge. 242 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,639 The description of the clothing matched the prison blues the 243 00:11:04,759 --> 00:11:08,039 escapees would have been wearing. They couldn't retrieve the body. 244 00:11:07,759 --> 00:11:10,279 Speaker 1: Though, and there was the packet of photos. 245 00:11:10,519 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: Yes, that's maybe the biggest piece of evidence for the 246 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,519 drowning theory. A waterproof pouch containing personal photos and letters 247 00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:20,320 belonging to the England Brothers was found floating in the bay. 248 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,320 The logic is, you know, if you've made it safely 249 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,399 to shore, you don't accidentally drop your most precious personal 250 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:27,639 possessions into the water. 251 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: That's a good point. But and this is a huge butt, 252 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:34,960 the US Marshall Service never closed the case. They inherited 253 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,919 it from the FBI and they kept it open. 254 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: They did, and that's because new information kept trickling in 255 00:11:40,039 --> 00:11:40,639 over the years. 256 00:11:40,799 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the big break, the thing that really 257 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,879 shifted the narrative. It came in two thousand and three 258 00:11:45,919 --> 00:11:47,919 from a US marshal named Michael Dike. 259 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,399 Speaker 2: Dike was obsessed with this case. He went back through 260 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,159 all the old files, all the teletypes and reports from 261 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,000 nineteen sixty two, and he found something the FBI had 262 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,039 either missed or just ignored. 263 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:00,519 Speaker 1: A police report, two. 264 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 2: Of them, actually, yeah. The first was from the Marine 265 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,039 County Police Department, filed on the night of the escape, 266 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:07,799 and it said it was a report of a stolen car, 267 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,519 a nineteen fifty five blue Chevrolet. It was stolen from 268 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,480 a neighborhood in Marine County, which is exactly where Alan 269 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,519 West the informant told the FBI the plan was to land. 270 00:12:17,799 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: Okay, I have to play Devil's advocate here for a second. 271 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,639 It's nineteen sixty two, a Blue Chevy. That's got to 272 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,399 be one of the most common cars on the road. 273 00:12:25,879 --> 00:12:28,559 It's like saying a silver Honda Civic was stolen today. 274 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:30,480 Is that really proof of anything. 275 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: On its own? No? Yeah, you're right, it's circumstantial. It's 276 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:35,039 a single data point. But then you look at the 277 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,440 next report Tyke found. Okay, this one came from a 278 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,039 little bit later that night, or maybe early the next morning. 279 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,639 A motorist in Stockton, California, which is about an hour 280 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,399 and a half drive east of Marin, reported being run 281 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,000 off the road by a speeding car. 282 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:50,919 Speaker 1: Let me guess a blue Chevy, a. 283 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: Blue Chevrolet, and the motorists description of the occupants three men. 284 00:12:56,799 --> 00:13:00,159 Speaker 1: Okay, Now that that tightens it up. Three men, blue Chevy, 285 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:03,360 speeding east away from the Bay Area on a logical 286 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:04,919 route if you were trying to get out of the state. 287 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: It fits the timeline west laid out perfectly. Land on 288 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,919 Angel Island or in Marin, steal a car and then 289 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,919 head east towards the Sierra's maybe down to Mexico. 290 00:13:14,799 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: Stockton is right on that path, and weren't their family 291 00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:20,399 rumors for years the England family specifically oh constantly. 292 00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:23,919 Speaker 2: The family has always maintained the boys survived. They claimed 293 00:13:23,919 --> 00:13:26,480 they received unsigned Christmas cards for a few years after 294 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:30,200 the escape. Their mother supposedly received flowers at her funeral 295 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,120 delivered with no card, which. 296 00:13:31,919 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: Is again, it's circumstantial. You can't prove any of that. 297 00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:37,039 Speaker 2: It's all circumstantial. But when you add it all up, 298 00:13:37,799 --> 00:13:40,519 you take the incredible survival skills of these men. Remember 299 00:13:40,639 --> 00:13:42,799 England's grew up in the Florida swamps. They knew how 300 00:13:42,799 --> 00:13:45,000 to handle themselves in water. And you combine it with 301 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,080 those police reports, the probability starts to shift. It moves 302 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,000 from impossible to well. 303 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,159 Speaker 1: Maybe it's the thread that just won't break. You can't 304 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,879 prove they died because there are no bodies, and you 305 00:13:57,879 --> 00:14:00,639 can't prove they lived. It's the perfect miss Street And. 306 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 2: As long as there are no bodies, the file stays open. 307 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,519 The US Marshalls have a policy they'll keep the warrant 308 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,480 active until each of the men turns one hundred years. 309 00:14:08,279 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: Old, which would be well Frank Morris would be over 310 00:14:10,519 --> 00:14:12,600 ninety now, John and Clarence Englin would be right around 311 00:14:12,639 --> 00:14:15,399 that age two. So the clock is ticking. It is indeed, 312 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,600 all right, let's pull our next thread. We're actually going 313 00:14:19,639 --> 00:14:21,840 to stay with the water theme. We're moving from the 314 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,559 freezing fast currents of the San Francisco Bay to the 315 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,200 eerily calm, freezing waters of the North. 316 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,639 Speaker 2: Atlantic, a very different kind of water disaster, a. 317 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:34,519 Speaker 1: Very different kind. We're shifting from a story about three 318 00:14:34,519 --> 00:14:37,000 men desperately trying to get out of a trap to 319 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,919 a story about fifteen hundred people who unknowingly sailed. 320 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: Right into one The Titanic. 321 00:14:43,159 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: We all know the basic story, the iceberg, the ship sinking, 322 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,919 the band playing on. But I want to focus on 323 00:14:48,919 --> 00:14:52,320 one specific moment, one specific piece of paper that often 324 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,559 gets lost in the epic scale of the tragedy. 325 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:56,639 Speaker 2: I think I know where you're going. You're talking about 326 00:14:56,639 --> 00:14:57,679 the Baltic message. 327 00:14:57,879 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: That's the one. Let's set the scene. It's Sunday afternoon, 328 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,279 April fourteenth, nineteen twelve. 329 00:15:03,679 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: The conditions out on the Atlantic are well, they're deceptive. 330 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,240 The ocean is described in the logs as being like 331 00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:13,000 a mill pond, dead, calm, absolutely. 332 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: Flat, which sounds good right, smooth sailing. 333 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,399 Speaker 2: You'd think so, But for spotting icebergs, it's a nightmare scenario. 334 00:15:19,759 --> 00:15:23,000 Normally you'd have waves, even small ones, crashing against the 335 00:15:23,039 --> 00:15:25,519 base of a berg that creates a line of white 336 00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:28,279 foam that lookouts can spot from miles away. 337 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:29,399 Speaker 1: But with no waves. 338 00:15:29,799 --> 00:15:33,159 Speaker 2: With no waves, a dark blue iceberg on a black, 339 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,200 moonless sea is effectively invisible. It's a ghost. You don't 340 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,720 see it until you're right on top of it. 341 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,559 Speaker 1: So the officers on the bridge, they're already on edge. 342 00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: They should have been. The wireless room was getting warnings 343 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,120 all day. At one point four two pm, the Titanic 344 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,320 receives a very specific message from another steamer, the Baltic. 345 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:53,679 It reports icebirds and large quantities of field ice directly 346 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,039 in the Titanic's path. 347 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: A clear and present danger warning. Captain Smith receives this message. 348 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:03,240 He reads it, He understands there is a massive field 349 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,600 of ice ahead. What does he do next? 350 00:16:05,879 --> 00:16:09,519 Speaker 2: This is the moment, This is the hinge. He doesn't 351 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,360 immediately post it on the bridge for the other officers. 352 00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:15,879 He doesn't order a changing course or speed. He walks 353 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:19,440 out onto the promenade deck finds j Bruce Ismay and 354 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,879 just hands him the telegram. 355 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: Is May, being the chairman of the White Star Line, 356 00:16:23,279 --> 00:16:25,519 he's the owner for all intents and purposes. He's on 357 00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:27,840 board as a passenger, but he's really he's the boss. 358 00:16:27,879 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: He is the ultimate authority on that ship, even above 359 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:33,240 the captain in some ways. And according to the sworn 360 00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:36,360 testimony given later at the British inquiry, which was led 361 00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:39,519 by a man named Lord Mersey, is May glances at 362 00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:41,840 this critical warning and it puts it in his pocket. 363 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: Why, I mean, why would you pocket a direct navigational 364 00:16:46,639 --> 00:16:49,399 warning about a mortal danger to the ship you own. 365 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,799 Speaker 2: This is the absolute crux of the negligence argument against 366 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:55,519 the White Star Line. Lord Mersey's personal journal, in the 367 00:16:55,519 --> 00:16:57,679 notes from the Increase of just Ismy was treating it 368 00:16:57,919 --> 00:16:58,759 as a piece. 369 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: Of inter gossip, like a fun fact exactly. 370 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 2: There's testimony that he was showing it off to other 371 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,720 wealthy passengers later that afternoon, sort of boasting, you know, 372 00:17:08,759 --> 00:17:11,000 look how exciting we're sailing through the ice. It was 373 00:17:11,039 --> 00:17:12,279 a display of arrogance. 374 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: But it's more than just arrogance, right, there's corporate pressure 375 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:15,920 here too. 376 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 2: That's the heavy implication. Yeah, Ismay had that telegram in 377 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,880 his pocket for hours. It wasn't until around seven point 378 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,839 pm that a very nervous Captain Smith had to actually 379 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,720 go and ask for it back so he could finally 380 00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:29,880 post it in the chart room. 381 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: For five hours, five critical hours. The officers on watch 382 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,440 on the bridge did not have that specific piece of 383 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,759 intelligence because the boss was carrying it round at his 384 00:17:39,839 --> 00:17:40,960 tuxedo and. 385 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,319 Speaker 2: The unspoken reason. The theory is that Ismay wanted to 386 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,000 maintain speed. The Titanic was doing about twenty two knots, 387 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:50,880 which is very fast for those waters. They were trying 388 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,799 to beat the arrival time of their sister ship. They 389 00:17:52,839 --> 00:17:54,680 wanted to get to New York on Tuesday night instead 390 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:55,799 of Wednesday morning, a. 391 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: Big PR victory for the maiden voyage, a huge. 392 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: PR victory, and slowing down for some pesky ice would 393 00:18:01,559 --> 00:18:02,440 ruin the headline. 394 00:18:02,519 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: So is May pockets the warning. The ship keeps plowing 395 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,880 ahead at full speed into the dark, and then eleven 396 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,160 three nine pm happens. 397 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: Eleven three nine pm. Look out, Frederick Fleet up in 398 00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:16,480 the crow's nest, spots a dark mass ahead. He rings 399 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,839 the warning bell three times. He picks up the phone 400 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,200 to the bridge and screams iceberg right ahead. 401 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,599 Speaker 1: How much time did they have from that moment to impact. 402 00:18:24,279 --> 00:18:26,839 Speaker 2: The calculations done by the inquiry, based on the ship's 403 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:29,839 speed and the reaction times, suggests he had about thirty 404 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:30,640 seven seconds. 405 00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:33,519 Speaker 1: Thirty seven seconds to turn a ship that weighs forty 406 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:34,759 six thousand tons. 407 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,599 Speaker 2: It's a problem of physics of momentum. It's physically impossible 408 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,519 a ship that size at that speed has a turning 409 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:44,880 circle of nearly a mile. Murdoch, the first officer on 410 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,079 the bridge, he did what he could. He ordered hard 411 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,759 a starboard and the engines full of stern. 412 00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: Well it enough. 413 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 2: It may have even made it worse. Reversing the engines 414 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,279 like that actually makes the redder less effective because you 415 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,960 lose the powerful wash of water flowing over it. They 416 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,079 were doomed the moment fleet saw the berg. 417 00:19:01,079 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: And the collision itself. The sources describe it not as 418 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,920 a big crash, but more of a grinding sound. 419 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: The iceberg was estimated to weigh one point five million tons. 420 00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:15,359 It was a literal mountain of ancient compressed ice. It 421 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,799 didn't move. The ship, which was just a thin steel shell, 422 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,640 just scraped along its underwater spur, the steel plates buckled, 423 00:19:22,759 --> 00:19:24,960 the rivets popped, and the Atlantic Ocean poured in. 424 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,519 Speaker 1: And if Ismay hadn't pocketed that note, if Captain Smith 425 00:19:28,559 --> 00:19:30,720 had slowed the ship down at two PM when he 426 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:32,119 first got that warning, they. 427 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: Would have arrived in New York a few hours late, 428 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,400 but fifteen hundred people would have arrived alive. That single 429 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,799 piece of folded paper in a man's pocket. It represents 430 00:19:41,839 --> 00:19:45,279 the entire cascading failure of the command structure. It wasn't 431 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:47,440 just an accident, it wasn't just bad luck. It was 432 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,680 a chain of human arrogance and wilfully ignored data. 433 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: That is a terrifying thought, the idea that valid life 434 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,319 saving information can be right there, but it's ignored because 435 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:00,480 it's inconvenient. Which actually that's a perfect brig to our 436 00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:04,480 next thread, because we're moving to a story where valid information, 437 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,319 an ID card, a biological profile, hard evidence was ignored 438 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,160 or lost this time because of bureaucracy, and it led 439 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,359 to a case of mistaken identity that lasted for decades 440 00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:18,079 and caused unimaginable pain for a family. 441 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: You're talking about the Vietnam unknown soldier. 442 00:20:20,559 --> 00:20:23,559 Speaker 1: This story is it's a tough one. It's about the 443 00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:26,759 Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington. You know, we 444 00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:29,680 grew up thinking of that tomb as a sacred, permanent void. 445 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,799 Here rests an honored, glory and American soldier known but 446 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:34,319 to God. 447 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:35,799 Speaker 2: It's a powerful symbol. 448 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: It is. But in nineteen ninety eight we learned that 449 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,119 for fourteen years, one of those soldiers wasn't unknown at all. 450 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,039 He had a name, and he had a family that 451 00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:44,039 was still looking for him. 452 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 2: This is the story of Air Force First Lieutenant Michael Blassie. 453 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: Tell us about him. Who was he? 454 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: Michael Blassie was a classic American kid from Saint Louis, 455 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,880 went to the Air Force Academy. He was a career 456 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,279 officer type, you know, very dedicated, very disciplined. He flew 457 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,839 the A thirty seven Dragonfly, which is a attack aircraft, 458 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:01,200 and he was. 459 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:02,839 Speaker 1: In Vietnam in nineteen seventy two. 460 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 2: Yes, on May eleventh, nineteen seventy two, he was flying 461 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,960 a mission over a town called Anlock, which was the 462 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,200 site of a brutal, prolonged battle. 463 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: A real meat grinder at that point in the war. 464 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely Blassi went and low to provide air support for 465 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,759 the troops on the ground. He was hit by a 466 00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:23,160 volley of anti aircraft fire. His wingman saw the plane 467 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,400 get hit, flip over and explode on impact in enemy 468 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:27,720 held territory. 469 00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: And because the fighting was so intense, they couldn't get 470 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,240 a recovery team in. 471 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 2: Not immediately, No, it was too hot. So he was 472 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,000 listed as missing in action, presumed killed. 473 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: But and here's where this thread starts to get really tangled. 474 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,759 A South Vietamese Army patrol did find the crash site 475 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:42,960 about six months later. 476 00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:45,519 Speaker 2: They did. They found the wreckage of the A thirty seven, 477 00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:49,359 They found skeletal remains, and crucially, they found a wallet. 478 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,000 Inside that wallet was Michael Blassi's military ID card. 479 00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: So case closed. Yeah, they found him, They've identified him. 480 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,319 He's no longer Mia. 481 00:21:57,559 --> 00:22:01,079 Speaker 2: It should have been that simple. The remains personal effects, 482 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,960 including the wallet, were turned over to the US military 483 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,559 and Saigon, but then they were packaged up to be 484 00:22:07,559 --> 00:22:12,319 shipped to the Central Identification Lab in Hawaii Cilhi, and 485 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,400 somewhere in that transit between Saigon and Hawaii, the wallet 486 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,359 and the ID card vanished. 487 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: They lost the ID just lost it. 488 00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: Lost or more likely stolen by someone along the way. 489 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,119 It was a common problem in the chaos of the war. 490 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,240 So what arise in the lab in Hawaii are a 491 00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:32,599 set of bones designated only by a case number unknown 492 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:33,559 x twenty six. 493 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: But they still have their remains. Can't they analyze them? 494 00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:38,839 They know they came from Blassie's crash site. 495 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,039 Speaker 2: They tried, but this is where the science of the 496 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,640 nineteen seventies really failed them. The forensic anthropologists that the 497 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,279 lab analyzed the skeleton. They estimated the height and age 498 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,319 based on the bone structure, but their reference charts were 499 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,720 largely based on like WWII populations, So their conclusion was 500 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,640 that the remains belonged to a man who was younger 501 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,519 and shorter than Michael Blassi was. 502 00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: They ruled him out based on bad data, essentially. 503 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 2: And there was another thing. They found a single human 504 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,839 hair in the flight suit that was recovered with the bones. 505 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,680 They casted the blood type of that hair follicle and 506 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,799 it came back as type. Oh, Michael Blasi's blood type 507 00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:15,599 was A So they said, well, there you go. This 508 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:16,359 can't be Blassy. 509 00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: But a single hair on a flight suit in a 510 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,559 war zone that could be from anyone. The guy who 511 00:23:21,559 --> 00:23:24,599 packed his parachute a mechanic who worked on the plane exactly. 512 00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 2: The concept of cross contamination just wasn't viewed with the 513 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,240 same kind of scientific scrutiny back then as it is today. 514 00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:36,119 So for those reasons, X twenty six was officially declared unidentifiable, 515 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,960 and in nineteen eighty four, under immense political pressure to 516 00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:43,279 have a Vietnam representative interred in the Tomb of the Unknowns, 517 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,519 the remains at X twenty six were selected. 518 00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:49,559 Speaker 1: And President Reagan himself presided over the ceremony. It was 519 00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:54,519 this huge, solemn national moment, and all the while, the 520 00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:57,880 Blassie family is watching this on television, grieving their son, 521 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,720 who they believe is still missing somewhere in the uncle's Vietnam. 522 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,759 Speaker 2: That's the absolute tragedy of it. They were watching his 523 00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:04,000 funeral and they had no idea. 524 00:24:04,079 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: So how did this finally unravel? Who was the one 525 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,359 who pulled this thread and exposed the truth. 526 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: It was a combination of people, but primarily a CBS 527 00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:16,440 journalist named Vince Gonzalez and a determined Vietnam veteran named 528 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,240 Ted Sampley. In the early nineteen nineties, they started digging 529 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,920 into the old declassified paperwork and they found the original 530 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,920 field reports from that South Vietnamese patrol, the ones that 531 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,519 mentioned finding the wallet and the ID card, the very 532 00:24:29,559 --> 00:24:32,960 ones they were able to connect the dots. They proved 533 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,079 that the remains labeled X twenty six originated from the 534 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,279 exact crash coordinates of Michael Blassie's plane. They published their findings. 535 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,759 The Blassie family read it and immediately said, that's our son, 536 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,119 that's Michael. 537 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: In that tomb, and they demanded a DNA test. 538 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: They demanded a DNA test. Now, this is nineteen ninety eight. 539 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,519 DNA technology has made incredible leaps, but you're still dealing 540 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:55,519 with bones that have been buried for fourteen years. 541 00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:56,559 Speaker 1: So how did they do it? 542 00:24:56,759 --> 00:25:00,319 Speaker 2: They used something called mitochondrial DNA or mt DNA. Unlike 543 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,400 nuclear DNA, which degrades pretty quickly, ntdnas passed down directly 544 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,799 from the mother to her children, and it's much more 545 00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:09,519 resilient in old bone samples. They were able to extract 546 00:25:09,559 --> 00:25:11,720 it from the remains and compare it to blood samples 547 00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:14,279 from Michael Blassi's mother and his sister Patricia. 548 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: And what was the result. 549 00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:18,559 Speaker 2: It was a one hundred percent match, no doubt whatsoever. 550 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:21,519 Speaker 1: I just I can't imagine the feeling for that family. 551 00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:24,799 Is it relief, is it anger at the decades of 552 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:25,480 not knowing? 553 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 2: I think it was all of those things. His sister, 554 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,519 Pritricia Blassi, she fought so incredibly hard for this. When 555 00:25:31,519 --> 00:25:35,359 the results came back, the Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, 556 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,839 ordered the tomb to be opened, which was completely unprecedented. 557 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: They exhumed the unknown soldier. 558 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 2: They did, They removed Michael's casket, flew him home to 559 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,880 Saint Louis, and he was finally buried under a headstone 560 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,240 bearing his own name, surrounded by his family. 561 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,839 Speaker 1: And Patricia Blassi had that incredible quote that just sums 562 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,279 it all up. He wasn't unidentifiable, he was just unidentified. 563 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 2: It's a powerful distinction. In that case. It changed everything. 564 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,960 It forced the military to prioritise accurate scientific identification above 565 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,240 all else. Because of modern DNA technology, there will likely 566 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,839 never be another unknown soldier from an American conflict. 567 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,039 Speaker 1: Which is an amazing victory for science and for military families. 568 00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:16,799 But it does, in a way, it closes a chapter 569 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,880 on a certain kind of national memorial. 570 00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: It does. It really does. 571 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: All right, Let's let's take a breath. We've done a 572 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,680 prison break, a maritime disaster, a forensic military mystery. Now 573 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,720 I think it's time we go full Indiana Jones. 574 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 2: I had a feeling this was where we were heading. 575 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,519 Speaker 1: We are going after the ark of the Covenant. 576 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,279 Speaker 2: The ultimate lost heart effect, the ultimate historical thread. 577 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,039 Speaker 1: But we're not talking about melting faces or you know, 578 00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:44,039 Nazis in the desert. Well, we'll actually get to the 579 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,960 Nazis a little later. We are talking about a very 580 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,279 specific modern investigation led by a fascinating man named Jim Barfield, 581 00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:55,680 and his whole quest revolves around one of the Dead 582 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,400 Sea scrolls. 583 00:26:56,559 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 2: But not just any of the Dead Sea scrolls. This 584 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,000 one is completely unique. 585 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: Tell us about the copper scroll. 586 00:27:01,839 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: Okay, so in the nineteen forties and fifties, these ancient 587 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:07,599 scrolls were found in a series of caves near an 588 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,920 archaeological site called Cumran on the shore of the Dead Sea. 589 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,960 All of them are made of parchment or papyrus, you know, 590 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,039 animal skin or plant paper, and their religious texts the 591 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:19,000 Book of Isaiah, Psalms, things like that. 592 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,759 Speaker 1: But one scroll, found in a place called Cave three, 593 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:22,680 was different. 594 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,039 Speaker 2: He was made of metal, ninety nine percent pure copper, 595 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,880 rolled up into a sheet, and you just don't write 596 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,559 a religious text or a grocery list on solid copper. 597 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,160 You use copper for something you want to last forever, 598 00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:39,759 something you need to survive, a fire, a flood, and invasion. 599 00:27:39,799 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: And it wasn't scripture. It was an inventory. 600 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: It was a treasure map, plain and simple. It's a 601 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,160 list of sixty four locations where the treasures of the 602 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,000 Temple of Jerusalem were supposedly hidden right before the Babylonians 603 00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:53,720 sacked the city and destroyed the temple in five eighty 604 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,319 seven BC. And it lists staggering amounts of gold and silver. 605 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,559 Speaker 1: So enter Jim Barfield. He's a retired fire marshall, an 606 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,839 Arson investigator from Oklahoma, not your typical archaeologist. 607 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 2: And that's his superpower in this story. He's not bogged 608 00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:09,880 down by academic dogma. He reads a translation of this 609 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,240 copper scroll and he decides he's going to solve it. 610 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:13,839 He decides to treat it like a cold. 611 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,799 Speaker 1: Case, an Arson investigation exactly. 612 00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 2: He looks for points of origin, for physical landmarks, for 613 00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:21,720 concrete descriptors, and he develops the theory that the scroll 614 00:28:21,799 --> 00:28:26,000 isn't talking about sixty four vague locations all across ancient Israel. 615 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:31,559 He believes it's describing sixty four very specific hiding places 616 00:28:31,599 --> 00:28:33,920 in and around the ruins of Kumran itself. 617 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,759 Speaker 1: Let's walk through some of his evidence, because a few 618 00:28:35,759 --> 00:28:38,160 of these matches are they're just. 619 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: Spooky, they really are. He focuses on the most specific descriptions. 620 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,000 For example, one entry on the scroll says, in the 621 00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:47,400 ruin which is in the valley of Acre, under the 622 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,400 steps heading east, which are forty cubits long, a chest 623 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,240 of silver and his vessels. 624 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,359 Speaker 1: Steps heading east forty cubits law. That is very very specific. 625 00:28:56,359 --> 00:28:57,920 A cubit is what about eighteen. 626 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,279 Speaker 2: Inches roughly yees So we're talking about a stairca it's 627 00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:03,240 about sixty feet long. So Barfield goes to the ruins 628 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:06,640 at Kumran. He finds a set of ancient excavated stairs 629 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:09,160 and he gets out of tape measure they're exactly forty 630 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,599 kep its long bleinch. 631 00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:13,279 Speaker 1: Okay, that's one heck of a coincidence, but it's still 632 00:29:13,359 --> 00:29:13,680 just one. 633 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,039 Speaker 2: So he moves to the next clue on the scroll. 634 00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:19,680 It describes a location in the cave of the column 635 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,480 of two openings facing east. He uses the other clues 636 00:29:23,519 --> 00:29:26,920 as a kind of geometric map, triangulates a position and 637 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,319 he finds a case at that spot with a natural 638 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,200 killer a column splitting its entrance into two openings. 639 00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:36,079 Speaker 1: This is getting good, but the big one, the one 640 00:29:36,079 --> 00:29:38,200 that really gets the pulse racing, is a place the 641 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,519 scroll calls the Hill of Culiff. 642 00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:43,319 Speaker 2: This location is mentioned as the hiding place for a 643 00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:46,240 massive amount of gold, and some scholars believe it could 644 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,960 be the hiding place of the Ark of the Covenant itself. Barfield, 645 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,640 using his map, identifies this one particular mound near the 646 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,240 Kumran Ruins that just looks wrong. It doesn't match the 647 00:29:57,279 --> 00:29:58,880 geology of the surrounding cliffs. 648 00:29:59,000 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: He thinks it's man made. 649 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 2: He suspects it is, so he gets permission to take 650 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,240 a small sample of the rock from the face of 651 00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:06,720 this hill. He sent it to a lab and the 652 00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:10,599 report comes back identifying the material not as natural limestone, 653 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,880 but as a form of ancient man made mortar. 654 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,559 Speaker 1: It's a plug. Someone sealed a cave entrance with it. 655 00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:18,079 Speaker 2: It's a massive man made plug. So we have a 656 00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:21,200 treasure map made of indestructible copper. We have a set 657 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,680 of stairs that perfectly matches the ancient measurements. We have 658 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,279 a cave with a column, and now we have another 659 00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:30,319 cave that's been deliberately sealed. Why hasn't somebody just blown 660 00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:33,079 the door off this thing. Well, this is where it 661 00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:38,799 gets both exciting and incredibly frustrating. Barfield knew he needed 662 00:30:38,799 --> 00:30:42,279 more proof. In twenty fourteen, he brought in a team 663 00:30:42,359 --> 00:30:44,880 with a very advanced piece of equipment, a type of 664 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,640 molecular frequency. 665 00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: Scanner, a deep penetrating metal detector, basically a. 666 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:52,599 Speaker 2: Very very sophisticated one. It can be tuned to detect 667 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,880 this specific atomic resonance of different elements like gold or 668 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,240 silver deep underground. But first he had to calibrate it. 669 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: How do you do that? 670 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: This is great. He actually buried thirty pounds of silver 671 00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:05,519 bars in his own backyard in Oklahoma to establish a 672 00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:08,359 baseline to see what a known quantity of precious metal 673 00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:09,400 look like to the machine. 674 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: That's brilliant. So he takes the calibrated machine to Kumaran. 675 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:15,119 Speaker 2: He takes it to the hill of Koulith. He runs 676 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,799 the scanner over the spot where he believes the sealed 677 00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:22,640 cave entrances, and the machine signal goes completely off the scale. 678 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,480 The operator said it indicated a massive quantity of non 679 00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:29,599 ferrous metal gold or silver estimated in the She's tones plural. 680 00:31:29,839 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: So the map says it's there, the geology says it's there, 681 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,160 the high tech spanner says it's there. 682 00:31:35,319 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: The government says stop. Kumaran is in the West Bank. 683 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,640 It is politically one of the most sensitive pieces of 684 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,720 real estate on the planet. It's disputed territory. Can you 685 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:48,240 imagine the geopolitical explosion if you start digging there and 686 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:50,400 you actually find the arc of the covenanty oh, my god? 687 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,319 Speaker 1: Who owns it? The israelis the Palestinians, Does Jordan have 688 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,480 a claim? It would be it would be a political ball. 689 00:31:56,599 --> 00:31:59,079 Speaker 2: A bomb doesn't even begin to describe it. So the 690 00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:02,119 Israel Antiquaries authority, they listened to Barfield. They were intrigued 691 00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:06,480 by his evidence, but ultimately the permit to excavate was denied. 692 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,079 The thread is just it's dangling right there. We can 693 00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:11,599 see it, we can almost touch it, but we can't 694 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:12,000 pull it. 695 00:32:12,359 --> 00:32:14,839 Speaker 1: That is just agonizing to think that the answer to 696 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,079 a two and a half thousand year old mystery could 697 00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:20,279 be sitting right there, just behind a few feet of 698 00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:21,039 ancient mortar. 699 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 2: It is the ultimate historical cliffhanger, So close, yet so far. 700 00:32:26,279 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: Speaking of mysteries involving bunkers and bad guys, we have 701 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,920 one last thread to pull today and it is definitely 702 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:34,920 the darkest one. 703 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 2: I think I know where we're going. We're heading to 704 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,559 a bunker in Berlin, April nineteen forty five. 705 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,359 Speaker 1: The death of Adolph Hitler. 706 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,839 Speaker 2: Or as the Internet would have you believe, the death 707 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,680 of Adolf Hitler. The conspiracy theory that absolutely will not die. 708 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: And I get why it doesn't die, I really do. 709 00:32:50,559 --> 00:32:52,599 At the core of it is one simple fact. We 710 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,160 never saw a body. The official story is that he 711 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,799 shot himself. Eva Braun took Cyanide and their loyal staff 712 00:32:58,839 --> 00:33:01,279 carried the bodies outside, doused them in petrol and burn 713 00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:02,240 them in a shell crater. 714 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 2: And that lack of a corpse, that empty space, it's 715 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,640 a vacuum that conspiracy theories just loved to fill. If 716 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,079 there's nobody, there's no proof. 717 00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:11,599 Speaker 1: Plus, and this is the part that really fuels the fire. 718 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,119 The Russians lied about it for years. Stalin's forces got 719 00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:19,279 to the bunker first, and Stalin, for his own political reasons, 720 00:33:19,559 --> 00:33:22,880 told Truman and Churchill at the Potsdam conference that Hitler 721 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:23,519 had escaped. 722 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,359 Speaker 2: Stalin was playing a game of four D chess. He 723 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,880 knew Hitler was dead, but it served his purposes to 724 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,720 keep the Nazi threat alive. It justified a massive Soviet 725 00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:37,319 military presence in Eastern Europe, ostensibly to hunt down fugitive fascists. 726 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:40,599 So he deliberately spread rumors that Hitler was in Spain 727 00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:44,119 or Argentina, or living on a secret U boat base 728 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:44,920 in Antarctica. 729 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: But let's look at the actual forensic evidence that was collected. 730 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,319 Because the Soviets did find remains in that garden. 731 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 2: They did. In early May of nineteen forty five, a 732 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,400 Soviet counterintelligence unit smirsh which means death despise. They sifted 733 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,359 through the dirt in that shell crater. They found a 734 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,839 job bone and part of a skull. The bodies were 735 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,880 almost completely incinerated, but teeth. Teeth are incredibly resilient to fire, and. 736 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,679 Speaker 1: Dental records are as good as a fingerprint. 737 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: In some cases, they're even better. The esnirage agents tracked 738 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,000 down a woman named kath Heyserman. She was the dental 739 00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:18,880 assistant to Hitler's personal dentist, a man named doctor Blashka. 740 00:34:18,559 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: And she had the records, the X rays. 741 00:34:21,039 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 2: She did one better. The records had been destroyed, but 742 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,119 she drew a detailed diagram of Hitler's teeth from memory. 743 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,280 And Hitler had terrible teeth. He had a very distinctive, 744 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,360 very complicated bridge on his right jaw, yet abscess his 745 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,559 gum disease. It was a mess. Her drawing from memory 746 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,559 was a perfect one to one match with the jawbone. 747 00:34:41,599 --> 00:34:44,119 The Soviets, it dug out of the dirt. They knew 748 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:46,800 in May nineteen forty five that they had him, They 749 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,320 just didn't tell the rest of the world the full 750 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,800 story for another decade. 751 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,039 Speaker 1: So Forensically it's a slam dunk, but people still love 752 00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:56,280 the Argentina theory, the gray wolf idea that he escaped 753 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,960 on a U boat and lived out his days as 754 00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:58,599 a wealthy. 755 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 2: Rancher, or the monk theory. That's another popular one. There 756 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,519 was a famous claim by a Spanish stonemason that he 757 00:35:03,559 --> 00:35:06,079 personally saw Hitler living as a monk at the Seamost 758 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,239 Monastery in Spain in the nineteen fifties. 759 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that for a second, because 760 00:35:10,119 --> 00:35:13,039 beyond the forensics, you have a very strong opinion on 761 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:14,840 the psychology of that idea. 762 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: I do look. Most conspiracy theories rely on the subject 763 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,239 acting rationally to save their own life. But Adolf Hitler 764 00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:25,920 was not a rational actor in that sense. He was 765 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,760 a narcissist on a scale that is almost impossible to comprehend. 766 00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:33,079 He didn't just lead Germany. In his mind, he was Germany. 767 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: So the idea of him living quietly, as you know, 768 00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:38,599 Senor Schmidt on a farm in Argentina, it would have. 769 00:35:38,559 --> 00:35:41,199 Speaker 2: Been a fate worse than death for him to be anonymous, 770 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,639 to be powerless, to have to hide who he was 771 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,320 and watch him a distance as the world rebuilt itself 772 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,360 without him. It's preposterous. His entire psychological profile screams that 773 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,679 he wanted a Agnerian ending, a good Er Dameron, the 774 00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:55,719 Twilight of the Gods. He wanted to go down in 775 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:56,719 flames with the Reich. 776 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,679 Speaker 1: Suicide wasn't an escape, it was the final act of control. 777 00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 2: Precisely he had seen what happened to Mussolini. Just days 778 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,079 before Mussolini was captured, executed, and his body was hung 779 00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:09,119 upside down from a meat hook and a gas station 780 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,559 plaza in Milan. People threw rocks at it. Hitler was 781 00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:16,599 absolutely terrified of that kind of public humiliation. He gave explicit, 782 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,159 repeated orders for his body to be burned to ash 783 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,360 so that he could not be made a trophy. Running 784 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,320 away is an act of cowardice that his monumental ego 785 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:25,679 could simply never sustain. 786 00:36:26,119 --> 00:36:29,559 Speaker 1: So the forensic evidence says he died, the psychological profile 787 00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:32,440 says he died. The only thing keeping him alive is 788 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,800 our own deep seated distrust of the official narrative, and 789 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:36,239 I think. 790 00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:38,559 Speaker 2: Our desire for a different kind of justice. We wanted 791 00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:41,119 to see the villain caught and punished in a courtroom. 792 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,000 Suicide feels like he cheated, he got away with it, 793 00:36:44,199 --> 00:36:46,800 So we invent these elaborate stories where he is eventually 794 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,599 hunted down and brought to justice because it's a more 795 00:36:49,679 --> 00:36:51,400 satisfying ending. Wow. 796 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 1: We have pulled on a lot of different threads today. 797 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,400 We've gone from the paper machet heads of Alcatraz to 798 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,679 the pocketed telegram on the deck of the Titanic, from 799 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,679 the last a d card of Michael Blassy to the 800 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,519 copper treasure map of the Arc, and finally to the 801 00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:08,760 burnt jawbone in a Berlin garden. 802 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,079 Speaker 2: And if there's a single theme that connects all of them, 803 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,079 it's that history isn't this solid, monolithic block of stone 804 00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:18,400 we imagine it to be. It's fragile, It's contingent. It 805 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,360 turns on the smallest, most human details. A rusty ventilation grill, 806 00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:27,840 a lost wallet, a piece of paper in a pocket. 807 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: It really makes you wonder, you know what threads are 808 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,239 dangling around us right now? What small details are happening 809 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,880 today that historians fifty years from now will point to 810 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,719 as the moment everything changed. 811 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 2: That's the thrill of what we do. The threads are 812 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,320 always there if you know where to look. 813 00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:43,119 Speaker 1: Before we go, I want to pose a question to 814 00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:46,880 everyone listening. We talked about two huge potential discoveries today, 815 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,320 two places where a shovel could potentially change the world. 816 00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:53,480 You have the sealed cave at Kumran that might hold 817 00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:54,880 the ark of the Covenant. 818 00:37:54,679 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 2: And you have the grounds of the Samos Monastery in Spain, 819 00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:01,440 where some people believe you might find the of Adolf Hitler. 820 00:38:01,559 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: So here's the question for you. If you personally have 821 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,440 the authority to sign one and only one excavation permit 822 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,239 to force one dig which one do you choose? Do 823 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,760 you want to uncover the sacred biblical treasure or do 824 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,559 you want to definitively hunt the Nazi ghost? 825 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,159 Speaker 2: Which truth do you actually want to know more? 826 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,159 Speaker 1: It's a tough one. Let us know your answer in 827 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:22,519 the comments, we read all of them. 828 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 2: A really tough choice, the sacred or the profane? 829 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,079 Speaker 1: It is. Thank you all for joining us on thrilling 830 00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:29,559 threads and keep pulling.