Speaker 1: Mac. I had a great open for the show that
Speaker 1: you poop pooed. So last second, I'm going to ask
Speaker 1: you what do you want to do to start the show?
Speaker 2: Uh? Goo, I would like you to tell me what
Speaker 2: you're rushmore and we'll get back to this in the episode.
Speaker 1: One second, what is a mount Rushmore?
Speaker 2: So, if you're new to the program, here, a mount
Speaker 2: Rushmore is the four nicest looking people on the planet.
Speaker 2: And then once you determine that, every year, you carve
Speaker 2: it into a mountain.
Speaker 1: Did you just come up with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Just made that up. Okay, So if you're new
Speaker 2: to that, people's hottest person on the planet every four
Speaker 2: years gets put up there. I like that, Goo, You're
Speaker 2: Mount Rushmore of comic book television shows. Now take a breather,
Speaker 2: think about it for a little bit. I'll give you mine,
Speaker 2: and then maybe you can jump back into here with.
Speaker 1: Your live action or animated.
Speaker 2: It's up to you. I would say, give me including animated.
Speaker 1: So I already have three off the top of my mind,
Speaker 1: and yes they are all Batman, but Batman the animated series.
Speaker 2: Oh I guess you'll go first.
Speaker 1: Yeh, Batman Beyond the Harley Quinn Show and then X
Speaker 1: Men ninety seven done.
Speaker 2: Okay, those are your four. I would go twenty nineteen's
Speaker 2: Watchmen on HBO.
Speaker 1: That's a great one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Loki season one is on there. X
Speaker 2: Men ninety seven is on there, and then I would
Speaker 2: probably go Batman the Animated series for my fourth. And
Speaker 2: I ask you that, gu because today we are discussing
Speaker 2: possibly an entry into that Mount rushmore so I think
Speaker 2: it's relevant.
Speaker 1: Hashtag Kim Kardashian, can you come back to me real quick?
Speaker 2: Cool? You got an addend amendment on yours?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Daredevil belongs on there, Loki does WandaVision. How many
Speaker 1: can I put on there?
Speaker 2: If you notice in the notes here I said, I'm
Speaker 2: I was considering maybe Jess Jones season one, and then
Speaker 2: I said, Aku, maybe Daredevil.
Speaker 1: For Daredevil for me is definitely on there.
Speaker 2: So if you if you had to go too and
Speaker 2: two two animated, two live action, what's you're four?
Speaker 1: So it's Batman the Animated series. I would take X
Speaker 1: Men ninety seven over the original, and then we go Daredevil.
Speaker 1: And here's the issue that we run into is that
Speaker 1: is the sum of Loki both season one and two
Speaker 1: better than the one season of one division for me.
Speaker 2: Here we go. Actually, I almost forgot this even though
Speaker 2: I wrote it down. Watchman twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: Oh, Watchmen as well, and the Boys, the Boys, Oh,
Speaker 1: the Boys. Okay, so just throw the Marvel stuff off.
Speaker 1: I'll keep Daredevil, the Boys and then the two animated series.
Speaker 2: Okay. Well, let's see if our approach approaching conversation has
Speaker 2: anything to do with the top four here.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, oh this show here. I like the penguin
Speaker 1: as well. Let's put that at the top and slid
Speaker 1: everything else down.
Speaker 3: Bang one good, three yeah, jos three, King of Queen
Speaker 3: mall Street.
Speaker 1: Entertained.
Speaker 2: I'm go and I'm Mac.
Speaker 1: What a great open by you. When's the last time
Speaker 1: you've actually done anything?
Speaker 2: Long time?
Speaker 1: I know because I was actually I was thinking about
Speaker 1: it earlier. I'm like pre show wise, Mac generally does
Speaker 1: seventy five percent of the work. You're a very good
Speaker 1: pre show. You do a lot of the notes. It
Speaker 1: gets prepared. I usually do the open and Mac sack
Speaker 1: and then anything post. Plus, I bring my award winning
Speaker 1: personality to this program. That's people. People love me. People
Speaker 1: love my opinions on witches. They love how I'm out
Speaker 1: there and putting myself out there. I'm never on the
Speaker 1: fence about anything.
Speaker 2: I think you've got to create a shirt that says
Speaker 2: witches get stitches.
Speaker 1: That's a good one, it's not bad. But I also
Speaker 1: want to want to run into a real witch and
Speaker 1: then have them put a put a spell on me
Speaker 1: or any Yeah, I wouldn't.
Speaker 2: Want that type of situation.
Speaker 1: That is not witchcraft. That is what is it called
Speaker 1: the pincushion.
Speaker 2: With the Yeah, i'd tell you that's witchcraft.
Speaker 1: I thought it like New Orleans. What is that called?
Speaker 1: It's like the bay you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Did they do a whole season of American horror
Speaker 2: story about witches of the Bayou?
Speaker 1: Didn't they?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's I'm not going to google. I
Speaker 1: don't want to google.
Speaker 2: It's called the Beignets.
Speaker 1: Beignets are delicious.
Speaker 2: Beignets are delicious.
Speaker 1: All right, that's our show, Okay.
Speaker 2: Folks, Today we are discussing what ign dot com gave
Speaker 2: a five out a ten television show that is The Penguin.
Speaker 2: The Penguin is a TV M, a gangster tragedy crime
Speaker 2: in drama, eight episodes. Totally I did. I forgot to
Speaker 2: get the minutes there, but they were roughly our episodes.
Speaker 2: Finale was a little longer, so we probably had about
Speaker 2: eight hours of programming, maybe a little less. You take
Speaker 2: the credits in the in the and whatnot out uh
Speaker 2: go on Roddy T's five percent from the critics, ninety
Speaker 2: two percent from the audience, and on Metacritic a seventy two. Now,
Speaker 2: I think that is, at least from my perspective how
Speaker 2: I'm sort of feeling about this show baseline extremely likable.
Speaker 2: But I think that's seventy two on Metacritics sort of echoes.
Speaker 2: At least. What I'm maybe feeling is it didn't quite
Speaker 2: hit those high highs of some of the past great covers.
Speaker 1: Is in seventy two really high though.
Speaker 2: Seventy two is pretty good for sure, but for example,
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen is Watchmen eighty five.
Speaker 1: So I would also I think that Watchmen, while I
Speaker 1: like the Penguin better, I would say because I love
Speaker 1: these characters, I love Batman, and I love the idea
Speaker 1: of doing more stuff with characters like this on HBO,
Speaker 1: Watchmen probably is a better show.
Speaker 2: Well, and it's sort of it was set up to
Speaker 2: be that way too, right, because this is a show
Speaker 2: in between two movies, whereas Watchmen was its own thing,
Speaker 2: and so it's more satisfying.
Speaker 1: It's David s.
Speaker 2: Pumpkins gained, and so I guess it's maybe a little
Speaker 2: unfair to the penguin. But also, when you're talking about
Speaker 2: all time great shows, these are the types of hairs
Speaker 2: you kind of have to split. Yes, So I'm interested
Speaker 2: to hear how you received the final couple episodes of
Speaker 2: this show and how the people have because early on
Speaker 2: there was a lot of talk about maybe this could
Speaker 2: be the greatest comic book show ever in the conversation
Speaker 2: for it, and to me, I don't think it quite
Speaker 2: got there, but I still thought it was fantastic.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I would put it on my
Speaker 1: rush more, but it is right there.
Speaker 2: I think it's like firmly a tier below for me.
Speaker 2: I just don't think it hit the high high.
Speaker 1: Is that a show that we're going to do soon
Speaker 1: Comic book tears, Comic book show tears earber. Maybe we
Speaker 1: do owe the people at least one tiering by the
Speaker 1: end of the year. They're pretty upset about Octierbers.
Speaker 2: That's fair. And if you're tuning into this program and
Speaker 2: have no idea what this show is attached to. This
Speaker 2: was I guess what's it called? When it's like, God,
Speaker 2: really I should know the word, and I'm forgetting like
Speaker 2: an attachment to something post something not a preamble but
Speaker 2: something like that, but post. You know, you know what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about. This is an add on to The Batman,
Speaker 2: which came out.
Speaker 1: It's a sequel series.
Speaker 2: It's a yeah, came out in twenty twenty two. I
Speaker 2: believe it was The Batman, and this show was never
Speaker 2: really meant to be when that movie came about, and
Speaker 2: then as they were developing this world, this Gotham, they
Speaker 2: sort of stumbled into this and this ended up being
Speaker 2: something that I think was certainly a worthwhile endeavor and
Speaker 2: broadened the universe and I think something they're gonna continue
Speaker 2: to do and also serves as like an appetizer and
Speaker 2: a lead into the second movie.
Speaker 1: Yeahp. But the one thing that I'm not a huge
Speaker 1: fan of is it took us two years to get
Speaker 1: this show. It's gonna take us two more years to
Speaker 1: get the Batman movie. I hope that they're able to
Speaker 1: not rush, but at least like get into the next
Speaker 1: show a little bit quicker than the amount of space
Speaker 1: between the Batman and the Penguin.
Speaker 2: I agree the Batman two should have been this year.
Speaker 2: The Penguin should have been last year. Give me one
Speaker 2: a year and that would would be more appealing, I
Speaker 2: think for.
Speaker 1: Me, even if it's every three years. Actually yeah, because
Speaker 1: they're gonna start shooting The Batman two in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: So even if there's three years between the movies and
Speaker 1: then somewhere nestled in between is a television show.
Speaker 2: Cool, Well that's what we got here. I would like
Speaker 2: that condensed a little bit more.
Speaker 1: No, because The Batman Too isn't gonna come out until
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, right, Oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, you're right correct. As I was gu
Speaker 2: the creator slash showrunner of this show is Lauren la
Speaker 2: front I think it's just Lefrank, but I like saying Lafran.
Speaker 2: You would know her as a writer on the show Chuck,
Speaker 2: which I've ever seen an episode of, but was somewhat popular.
Speaker 2: She was also a writer on Agents of Shield and
Speaker 2: something called Impulse that has decent grades. I don't know
Speaker 2: what her connection was to this universe or to Matt Reeves,
Speaker 2: but for someone that had never been a showrunner, or
Speaker 2: at least to this magnitude. I thought this show was
Speaker 2: really well done, amazingly well written. She was a writer
Speaker 2: on the show as well. And that's really I think,
Speaker 2: and that's a credit to Reeves for starting this universe
Speaker 2: in the first place. But the writing and the character
Speaker 2: development this show was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I also think for having eight episodes, like that's a
Speaker 1: real good number of episodes. They don't really waste any time,
Speaker 1: and everything on the show has a purpose.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he will get to that in a few but
Speaker 2: like borometer wise, you are pretty well gripped. Yeah, most
Speaker 2: of these eight hours. It wasn't too many wasted moments
Speaker 2: in here, if any. So they did a wonderful job.
Speaker 2: Synopsis of The Penguin, following the events of the Batman
Speaker 2: Oz Cobb aka the Penguin makes a play to seize
Speaker 2: the reigns of the crime world in Gotham. Pretty good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty good. It's pretty concise.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mention two of the other main characters, but
Speaker 2: it's good enough to sell you right.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean Gotham is I would say there's four
Speaker 1: main characters. Gotham is one of them.
Speaker 2: Okay, no, that's fair that's definitely fair go. This show
Speaker 2: stars Colin Farrell as Oz Cobb Slash the Penguin, of course,
Speaker 2: reprising his role from The Batman, Kristin Miliati as Sophia
Speaker 2: fl Cone aka Sophia Gigante. And before we get any further,
Speaker 2: this was her show as good as Colin fara and
Speaker 2: Ferrell is is Oz Cobb. You almost not cares is
Speaker 2: not what I'm meaning. But she is so good she
Speaker 2: becomes the like the eye of the storm, the center
Speaker 2: of the show here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if they do and they are gonna do
Speaker 1: another show with another villain of Batman, another Rogues Gallery character,
Speaker 1: like I'm so curious, like not who they choose for that,
Speaker 1: but who they shoehorn in there as the secondary character
Speaker 1: that we're gonna fall in love with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna be hard to live up to Kristin Miliati,
Speaker 2: that's for sure. Renzie Felise plays Victor Aguilar aka Vic,
Speaker 2: and the showrunner Lafrant describes Vic as the heartbeat of
Speaker 2: this show. I think that's pretty apt to. I think
Speaker 2: he is more the common man. We're more going through
Speaker 2: it the way he is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of outlets and I agree with this.
Speaker 1: They describe his character as the Penguins Robin.
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, that's I think that's kind of dumb down.
Speaker 2: But that's good enough. That's good enough. I think Dardrew
Speaker 2: O'Connell as Francis Cobb Ozit's mother Carmin and Jogo as
Speaker 2: Eve Carlo the swearter, love interest slash friend of a Yeah,
Speaker 2: theo Rossi is doctor Julian Rush, which will have a
Speaker 2: little thing on him and spoilers. Clancy Brown as Salvatore
Speaker 2: Maroney who was named in The Batman, but we didn't
Speaker 2: see him on screen. The one thing I'll say is
Speaker 2: Clancy Brown is almost always a little too much for me.
Speaker 2: He's he's just he's a little too much for me.
Speaker 2: But Michael Kelly is Johnny Vetti who gets tied up
Speaker 2: in this er so jealous of that, and then go
Speaker 2: gets some cameos. No spoilers here, uh, people we saw
Speaker 2: from The Batman. Mark Strong plays Carmine Falcone. He replaces
Speaker 2: John Touturo because John Totro I think was shooting uh
Speaker 2: severance instead of this, and he was good, you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's fine. He was only the way. I agree.
Speaker 2: I agree because Mark Strong was almost too mean. Totro
Speaker 2: wins you over a little bit, a little more playful.
Speaker 2: Craig Walker is Detective Marcus Wise. We saw him as
Speaker 2: one of the correct policemen in the movie. He comes
Speaker 2: back in here and does a very nice job. Con
Speaker 2: O'Neill as Chief Mackenzie bach Goo's favorite character in the
Speaker 2: whole universe. Hey, what are you doing? Your family?
Speaker 1: What are you doing Sophia?
Speaker 2: And then we get a couple couple scenes in here
Speaker 2: with Jamie Laws and Asbella real who is the mayor
Speaker 2: elect as we've seen at the end of the batmano
Speaker 2: Laura lefranc again the show I'm gonna keep saying her
Speaker 2: name as often as I can describes this show primarily
Speaker 2: as a tragedy. I know there are other themes in
Speaker 2: whatnot that are picked up in this, but it's hard
Speaker 2: not to agree with therk because this really is by
Speaker 2: the end of it, this show really is a tragedy everything.
Speaker 1: So, first off, all oz Ever wants on this show
Speaker 1: is validation, and that is from everybody, and he will
Speaker 1: say anything to anybody to get what he wants. And
Speaker 1: he almost just keeps on making up his own rules
Speaker 1: for himself as he goes where by the end of it,
Speaker 1: yes he gets what he wants, but he doesn't. It's
Speaker 1: like tragedy. He's there, but the way that he is,
Speaker 1: he thinks that he has finally appeased certain people, but
Speaker 1: his mind, his mind is warping, like the reality to
Speaker 1: the point of like nothing that he actually set out
Speaker 1: to do is there, but in his mind he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I did it.
Speaker 2: Best part about this show, what makes this show so
Speaker 2: fucking awesome is the dichotomy between Oz and Sophia and
Speaker 2: where they're at. Certain points are at the same level.
Speaker 2: One goes up, one goes down, the back and forth
Speaker 2: and where they all end up, and ultimately it works
Speaker 2: really well because one is striving for what the other has, yeah,
Speaker 2: and the other one that has it doesn't want that,
Speaker 2: trying to get rid of that, trying to get away
Speaker 2: from that, and that this vicious cycle of that is
Speaker 2: really what makes the show go.
Speaker 1: It's also the great rags to riches story where it's
Speaker 1: almost like when a poor person comes and like wins
Speaker 1: the lottery and then they just buy a bunch of
Speaker 1: shit and like rich people are like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: still really like Sophia calls everything in his apartment tacky
Speaker 1: and trashy and stuff. But then when he has like
Speaker 1: people that aren't from high society, they're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is really nice stuff.
Speaker 2: Uh good. I mentioned at the top, and we've this
Speaker 2: has been a top conversations surrounding this series. When this
Speaker 2: series was first conceived, Matt Reeves began thinking about this
Speaker 2: series during post production of the first movie. The original
Speaker 2: plan once he was getting going with this Penguin stuff
Speaker 2: was to have the story that we saw play out
Speaker 2: over these eight episodes essentially be the first act of
Speaker 2: the sequel. But he didn't really know how to put
Speaker 2: that together. And before he had even put pen to paper,
Speaker 2: HBO had approached him and said, hey, like, we're looking
Speaker 2: for a show from your universe, is there anything like
Speaker 2: can you give us anything? Like don't save all the
Speaker 2: good stuff for the movies, And he started talking about
Speaker 2: this ODZ story and it was actually an HBO executive
Speaker 2: named Casey Bloyse he's the CEO, was like, that's it,
Speaker 2: that story, that's the show. So credit to HBO and
Speaker 2: HBO always does this, but credit for them to them
Speaker 2: for finding the niche here. This in between that worked
Speaker 2: so well.
Speaker 1: And yes, is this similar? Is this character similar, say
Speaker 1: to a Tony soprano? Sure? Sure, everything is similar to
Speaker 1: everything nowadays.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you're talking gangster crime, mob movies, you're
Speaker 2: never gonna have a new idea. It's just not possible.
Speaker 2: So you know, I guess there's appropriate critiques there. But
Speaker 2: having that set with the backdrop of Gotham and in
Speaker 2: a Batman universe, obviously it plays it up a little
Speaker 2: bit more gout before we get too deep into things,
Speaker 2: just to make the timeline clear. Actually the timeline is
Speaker 2: not clear, but to figure out where we're operating is
Speaker 2: the first episode takes place about a week after the
Speaker 2: end of the movie, a week after the flood and whatnot.
Speaker 2: And then in that in Batman's final monologue of that movie,
Speaker 2: he says, it's Wednesday, November sixth, and I have to
Speaker 2: think what takes place over our eight episodes. It has
Speaker 2: to take place over a couple of months of time frame.
Speaker 1: Do they celebrate Thanksgiving on this show? Did they?
Speaker 2: It's a great question. I didn't see a Thanksgiving episode
Speaker 2: in there, but some of the timelines and some of
Speaker 2: the shit we see, there's no way could have happened
Speaker 2: over a week or two weeks and had to been
Speaker 2: a few if not a month or two, So that's
Speaker 2: pretty unclear. I think we'll get a more stable timeline
Speaker 2: once we get into the second movie. Maybe we're like
Speaker 2: end of December and New Year type of situation. Now,
Speaker 2: and this whole show gets kicked off and we get
Speaker 2: introduced to the ful Cone family in this show, because
Speaker 2: not only was Oz tied in with him, but in
Speaker 2: the first.
Speaker 1: Of the entire Falcone family we obviously meet Carmine in
Speaker 1: the battle.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, obviously Oz is tied in with them anyways.
Speaker 2: But why this becomes an odds and fl Cone story
Speaker 2: is because in the first fifteen minutes of the show,
Speaker 2: and it's what sort of ropes she in, Oz kills
Speaker 2: Sophia's brother Alister.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's all because, and this is what I
Speaker 1: love about it, he made fun of him, Yeah, to
Speaker 1: a t.
Speaker 2: It's really what Oz is and what Oz has been
Speaker 2: fighting against his whole life, this idea that he's not
Speaker 2: good enough. Yes, and when he gets belittled by Alberto,
Speaker 2: he snaps, And that's that little character trait that really
Speaker 2: defines who Oz is.
Speaker 1: I also love the way he walks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's perfect. I don't I don't know how how
Speaker 2: many different walks he tried. The way Carl Farrell does
Speaker 2: it is perfect.
Speaker 1: I think it was the end or the beginning of
Speaker 1: episode five they show him walking away from a car
Speaker 1: and it's like really exaggerated and like, that is a
Speaker 1: fucking penguin. It's great, it's a penguin. This also has
Speaker 1: a lot to do with class warfare as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I think also is like pretty well tied
Speaker 2: into like mob stories, people trying to be made men
Speaker 2: or work their way up the ladder. That has a
Speaker 2: lot to do with class warfare, and especially with the
Speaker 2: fallout from the Batman, how the shittier the poor areas
Speaker 2: of town aren't getting attention and the rich areas.
Speaker 1: Are so two things there. Number one, they start a
Speaker 1: lot of scenes by showing off the bridge that separates
Speaker 1: the rich and the poor and Gotham, and then they
Speaker 1: also show a lot of starting with like a skyline
Speaker 1: and then going down like four or five levels to
Speaker 1: really show how low the penguin is here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, The bridge shots and things like
Speaker 2: that always remind me of Yeah, I don't know if
Speaker 2: if you remember this or know anything about Rio de Janeiro,
Speaker 2: but this was especially underlined when they held the Olympics
Speaker 2: there or World Cup something like that. Rio is pretty
Speaker 2: famously known for literally just sectioning off the poor area
Speaker 2: with a gigantic wall, so thirty feet away, rich Highway
Speaker 2: whatever behind that, it's all poor and slums. And they
Speaker 2: build Gotham out in a pretty similar manner in this world.
Speaker 1: I also think so. I think Christopher Nolan did a
Speaker 1: pretty good job of it. But this show and the
Speaker 1: movie has done the best job of building out like
Speaker 1: a rich like you understand Gotham.
Speaker 2: I think already one movie's worth. And of course the
Speaker 2: show Gotham is more central to this story than it
Speaker 2: ever I know, I'm summarizing what you're saying, is more
Speaker 2: central to this story in this universe than it ever
Speaker 2: was in Nolan's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think Nolan did a pretty good job.
Speaker 1: I think Burton didn't really focus on it, Schumacher, I
Speaker 1: can't even think back to anything Gotham wise besides, like
Speaker 1: the motorcycle races and Coolio in the streets. The animated
Speaker 1: series did a pretty good job as well too, But
Speaker 1: oh up, credit where credit is due the first Joker
Speaker 1: movie does a pretty good job as well.
Speaker 2: Agreed, I'll agree with you on that for sure. Definitely.
Speaker 1: I guess that's the end of the podcast. We gave
Speaker 1: a compliment to Joker. Let's get to the I've nonagone here,
Speaker 1: Mac and fun factor. There is a lot of I think,
Speaker 1: the backstabbing on this show because to sum up the
Speaker 1: penguin in one word is weasel. He is a weasel.
Speaker 1: You can't trust. It's just called weasel. You can't trust
Speaker 1: a word he is saying to anybody.
Speaker 2: The double talk. He's always whatever he says is never
Speaker 2: the truth.
Speaker 1: He's a true hype man. He's trying to hype everybody up,
Speaker 1: but he doesn't believe any of it, or maybe he
Speaker 1: does and he just goes back on it.
Speaker 2: He's constantly cupping the balls.
Speaker 1: That's all he's doing.
Speaker 2: Good to that point, this show has a lot of
Speaker 2: fun with come up and revenge. Like that's the fun
Speaker 2: factor in this show. The anticipation of someone you fucking
Speaker 2: hate getting theirs. That's a lot of what drives the
Speaker 2: fun behind this show.
Speaker 1: Satisfactor and I was extremely satisfied with not only how
Speaker 1: the show ended, but the entire eight episode run.
Speaker 2: I think everything surrounding Sophia for eighty percent of this
Speaker 2: season is incredibly satisfying. Watching her become Sophia Jigante is great.
Speaker 2: I do feel like the last couple of episodes did
Speaker 2: not satisfy me enough when it came to the Oz
Speaker 2: stuff or the overarching Gotham stuff number one, because it
Speaker 2: was pretty obvious where they were going and number two,
Speaker 2: which we'll get in more so in spoilers. There is
Speaker 2: a glaring, glaring hole in all.
Speaker 1: Of this, so I think that maybe you aren't adding in,
Speaker 1: Like I think the relationship with his mother is extremely
Speaker 1: satisfying and how this character is gonna be. And I
Speaker 1: also think that moving forward in the next movie or
Speaker 1: when he shows up again, he's gonna be a completely
Speaker 1: different character. He's not gonna be as like, you know,
Speaker 1: low level, uh, low class. He's gonna be a little
Speaker 1: bit He's gonna fit in more with society.
Speaker 2: Gou, I hear you, And I'm not saying you're wrong.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying all this stuff with his mother was
Speaker 2: established really early, and you had a pretty good idea
Speaker 2: of where that was gonna end up. So by the end,
Speaker 2: all I know.
Speaker 1: Not with her feelings on the boy.
Speaker 2: Ah, you knew that was gonna crack at some point,
Speaker 2: you knew that was coming.
Speaker 1: No, And then also how he responds to it is
Speaker 1: the best.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I I to me like that was sort of telegraphed.
Speaker 2: But that's if if it worked better for you, that's fine.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say it shouldn't you calm me, stupid.
Speaker 1: I think we should both start acting like the penguin
Speaker 1: moving forward is that whenever you perceive like you're being
Speaker 1: slighted in the littlest just fucking attack the other person.
Speaker 2: Just shoot the other person.
Speaker 1: By the way, and this has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: the penguin. I was watching an interview with Steve Carell
Speaker 1: earlier and someone asked him about the improv scene on
Speaker 1: the office where he kept on pulling out a gun,
Speaker 1: and he said that when I was at Second City,
Speaker 1: there was someone that always did that and we thought
Speaker 1: it was the funniest thing, and the teacher one day
Speaker 1: had to ask him for all of his guns.
Speaker 2: The teacher in that scenes ken Jong, right, I believe so,
Speaker 2: or he's in the class. That's so good. Michael Scarrn.
Speaker 1: Barometer. I was not bored.
Speaker 2: No, I it is. My gripes with this show really
Speaker 2: don't have anything to do with Barometer Halloween.
Speaker 1: Will this show wanne over time? I don't know how
Speaker 1: much of a rewatchable show this will be, maybe going
Speaker 1: back to pick up on some of the Sofia stuff,
Speaker 1: because I think that she's gonna play a bigger role
Speaker 1: moving forward too much Like when I was watching this,
Speaker 1: I had to go back and rewatch The Batman once again.
Speaker 1: So maybe it's just when something new comes out, it's
Speaker 1: just picking up more of these breadcrumbs as they're leaving behind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if there's gonna be much rewatchability here.
Speaker 2: And part of that goes into my overarching critique is
Speaker 2: that it does lack this satisfying conclusion or this big
Speaker 2: pants tent moment like that was satisfying that it sort
Speaker 2: of needed at the end. It doesn't make the show
Speaker 2: like it doesn't really diminish the show because it had
Speaker 2: to fit in a window. But again, when you're looking
Speaker 2: for something to go back and rewatch, there's not a
Speaker 2: ton here.
Speaker 1: O quater World. Is this television show better than the
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five hit movie, Yes, it was profitable. Water
Speaker 1: World indeed it is, although it is dealing with a flood.
Speaker 2: Is water World in the DCU, Well.
Speaker 1: I know that Aquaman is very similar. That's true, Max
Speaker 1: credit Union. Who are you giving credit.
Speaker 2: To so obviously Kristin Miliatti, Christine Milliod. I still don't
Speaker 2: know how I've heard it both ways. That's a podcast.
Speaker 2: It's a good one, overarching though it and it echoes
Speaker 2: the Miliati stuff. Whoever is in charge of casting in
Speaker 2: this universe and especially for this show nailed it, fucking
Speaker 2: crushed it. Every character, even down to characters when they
Speaker 2: saw a couple times during the season, were so good
Speaker 2: and then the big players all absolutely demolished it. The
Speaker 2: casting amazing.
Speaker 1: Who is the mobster that Oz looks up to? What's
Speaker 1: his name? The guy's got a real sour puss.
Speaker 2: In the Falcone family.
Speaker 1: No, no, when he's a kid, Rex you're talking about? Yes, Rex,
Speaker 1: thank you? So like plemenade wise, I think he'd be
Speaker 1: someone that would be a candidate. But like you're talking about,
Speaker 1: like the casting and this, like even I thought he
Speaker 1: was great in the episodes that we go and you
Speaker 1: picked up on like why someone like Oz would idolize
Speaker 1: this person and then want to be this person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it had a little bit of a broxtail to it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: now as you can't leave like that moment was something
Speaker 2: that really resonated with Oz.
Speaker 1: I'll give him plemonade, because when life gives you plemons,
Speaker 1: you make plemonade. We only saw him for roughly He
Speaker 1: was in two ish episodes, and he wasn't like a
Speaker 1: big character in those episodes, but I know you have here,
Speaker 1: dear Day O'Connor, who plays Deirdre.
Speaker 2: Deirdre O'Connell really nailed that. Deirdre O'Connell is Francis Cobb,
Speaker 2: the mother fuck that. I'd say the main three had
Speaker 2: too much screen time to really do Plemonade. And she
Speaker 2: was probably in five or six of these episodes, but
Speaker 2: she's only in a few scenes per episode. She did
Speaker 2: an incredible job. And there's also a whole like, you know,
Speaker 2: mental things she's got going on, some sort of dementia
Speaker 2: type of situation, and I thought she did a really
Speaker 2: good job conveying that.
Speaker 1: The writing on that as well is very good and
Speaker 1: the storytelling all that. I forget which episode it's the
Speaker 1: one where Vick is watching her and you see all
Speaker 1: the post it notes around to remind her to do stuff.
Speaker 2: And she would end scenes. She would go from clear
Speaker 2: all their alert and oriented to jumping back. She'd have
Speaker 2: these episodes. It's a very specific kind of dementia that
Speaker 2: they depicted in this I forget what it's called, but
Speaker 2: I thought it was really good and the actress did
Speaker 2: an amazing job.
Speaker 1: Oh also give credit too, because I hated this character
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this feels like a real person. That
Speaker 1: kid squid, Yes, yeah, I was like, oh fucking blow
Speaker 1: this guy's head.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yes, please.
Speaker 1: Pants ten City, Excite Mike Mania. What on this show
Speaker 1: got you going?
Speaker 2: Pretty clearly, Sophia tying people up was all I ever
Speaker 2: needed her yellow dress in That was that episode four
Speaker 2: when the come up and sappens for the Falcons. That
Speaker 2: was probably the high point of the season. Great moment
Speaker 2: for the character, But I must admit this show did
Speaker 2: lack a true standout moment, true stand up scene, and
Speaker 2: I think that's maybe what we'll keep it from being
Speaker 2: talked about as one of the all time greats.
Speaker 1: I think it was Pete Blackburn from the What Chaos
Speaker 1: podcast that said he would love for Kristin Miliatti to
Speaker 1: put out a cigarette on him.
Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more. I'm pretty sure. I retweeted that.
Speaker 1: I think the end of episode four, where she gets
Speaker 1: her revenge is pretty good.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Yes, great, Yeah.
Speaker 1: For those of you tarty to the Mac and Goop party,
Speaker 1: we rate everything on a forty hot dog rating system.
Speaker 2: Mac.
Speaker 1: First off, big ups to everyone involved on this show
Speaker 1: for having a show, a Gotham show with no Batman,
Speaker 1: a Batman show with no Batman, and still being wildly entertaining, gripping,
Speaker 1: great characters, taking its time, and not to take jabs
Speaker 1: at other people, but like, take note, Sony Verse, take note.
Speaker 2: Joker, It's possible to do these things.
Speaker 1: It's possible to do these things. So that's the big thing. Yea.
Speaker 2: All that said, we'll get into Yeah, we'll talk that complicate,
Speaker 2: it does.
Speaker 1: But Colin Ferrell's amazing in this. I think he is
Speaker 1: such a good penguin. And yes, it does come off
Speaker 1: a little bit more as like a joisy guy that's coming,
Speaker 1: and but I think it works well for this character,
Speaker 1: especially when we think of like where Gotham might be
Speaker 1: in America. I think his mother is amazing in this.
Speaker 1: Chris and Miliatti steals the show. The episodes that are
Speaker 1: dedicated entirely to her, you'd be saying, wait a second,
Speaker 1: this is in the Batman universe and it's called the Penguin.
Speaker 1: Where are these characters. We don't need them. We have
Speaker 1: Sophia fl Cone, we have Sophia to Jagante, and probably
Speaker 1: episode four, which is her episode where they do that
Speaker 1: is the best episode of the season. All the mobsters,
Speaker 1: they're all different and each gang has a different personality.
Speaker 1: I love that about the show too. The kid who
Speaker 1: played Vic is very good in this. You understand why Penguin,
Speaker 1: who's dealt with stuff with his foot his whole life
Speaker 1: and not being not wanting to be looked down upon,
Speaker 1: goes with Vic, who has a starter, and he kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, sides with him, and he understands that like
Speaker 1: people kind of look down upon him as well. They're
Speaker 1: also both they both grew up with nothing and they've
Speaker 1: kind of built to where they are now, and Penguin
Speaker 1: wants to help him continue to build up even further
Speaker 1: than that. I really love this show. There is something
Speaker 1: that I do think takes away from where they're located,
Speaker 1: not even the storytelling, because you don't need Batman but
Speaker 1: you need the fear of Batman, and I don't think
Speaker 1: the fear of Batman was here.
Speaker 2: That's that's for sure.
Speaker 1: Thirty seven hot.
Speaker 2: Dogs, Okay, Yeah, I'm in the same range as you. Gou.
Speaker 2: Like you said, the acting fantastic. The world they build
Speaker 2: or build out underneath this world, the lower levels of
Speaker 2: Gotham is great and really is going to help the
Speaker 2: movies going forward and help you know, Oz become this
Speaker 2: Penguin villain going forward. I think, though, the two biggest
Speaker 2: things that bother me here is number one, the thing
Speaker 2: hanging over this whole Gotham that we'll expand upon. But
Speaker 2: the Batman stuff, the more you think about it, the
Speaker 2: more it starts to hurt the show. Now, I'm not
Speaker 2: too sure people were thinking about it in the moment,
Speaker 2: but by the end of the season it had become
Speaker 2: a pretty pretty reasonable discourse online.
Speaker 1: I texted you telling you all this, and you're like,
Speaker 1: you're making too big of a deal out of this,
Speaker 1: And I don't want a nitpick. I think this is
Speaker 1: a wonderful show. It is, but when you're in Gotham
Speaker 1: and you have streets exploding, whole city blocks, something's got
Speaker 1: to give.
Speaker 2: Yep. And it wasn't even the end of the season,
Speaker 2: so he had plenty of time to pop up. He
Speaker 2: doesn't even need to show up. You just need a
Speaker 2: batsy clock. Yes, couldn't agree more so. I think that
Speaker 2: puts a damper on the whole thing overall. And that
Speaker 2: lack of like standout scene in the second half of
Speaker 2: the show I think hurts it a little bit. And
Speaker 2: I also think the show sort of became a victim
Speaker 2: of its strength the character development. Sophia becomes such an
Speaker 2: amazing character it almost hurts the show because it's not
Speaker 2: it's not her show.
Speaker 1: No, where she ends up is such a good place,
Speaker 1: though I agree.
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about that. I'm saying because her character
Speaker 2: became so great, I cared less about Oz and where
Speaker 2: he ends up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you also so if you want.
Speaker 2: To I'm not. I'm all I'm saying is she is
Speaker 2: so good. It sort of took away from the stuff
Speaker 2: because I cared less about him.
Speaker 1: But if they went into this saying we want to
Speaker 1: tell this sofiafl Cone story, but they can't go to
Speaker 1: HBO and be like, hey, we have this Sophia fl cones.
Speaker 1: I agree, you needed at least to have the penguin
Speaker 1: who is a recognizable character. I'm not Batman at.
Speaker 2: Least as Don't get me wrong, I'm mora killed the
Speaker 2: show for me. It just hurt it a little bit,
Speaker 2: a little bit so good. I think I'm at thirty
Speaker 2: six hot dogs. Okay, I think it's just a tear
Speaker 2: below greatness, really really fucking good. Borderline loved it, loved
Speaker 2: most of the show most of the season, like episodes three, four, five,
Speaker 2: six were great, that the middle part of the season
Speaker 2: was great. I just have a hard time. And this
Speaker 2: goes into the Halloween stuff. It's hard to remember or
Speaker 2: have that great love affair with the show when it
Speaker 2: doesn't end on the high that it achieved in the
Speaker 2: middle of the season. So that's that. Let's get into
Speaker 2: spoiler spoke.
Speaker 1: Can I just mentioned one thing in spoilers So we've
Speaker 1: already mentioned a couple of times here that the show
Speaker 1: just it needed not even like, say, if the penguin
Speaker 1: thinks too highly of himself that he'll be caught by Batman.
Speaker 1: Maybe he's and he's already run into Batman, but say
Speaker 1: it if he thinks so highly of himself that he's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get caught. I don't even need to
Speaker 1: think about him, his cronies, the people working underneath Sophia,
Speaker 1: under Maroney Street. Then you should at least be like, hey,
Speaker 1: what if he shows up? That's the only line I needs.
Speaker 2: It was not apparent, and to your credit, two weeks
Speaker 2: ago you texted me about this whole Batman plot hole
Speaker 2: in this whole series. I started to think about it
Speaker 2: a little bit, started seeing it, but more online. I
Speaker 2: didn't rewatch The Batman until after I had finished the season.
Speaker 2: I'm glad I waited. Fifteen minutes into The Batman, I
Speaker 2: texted you and I said, oh boy, the Penguin's got
Speaker 2: a Batman problem, because fifteen minutes into that show, Jim Gordon,
Speaker 2: who we don't see in this show that's a detriment,
Speaker 2: puts the bat signal up for Batman, and over the
Speaker 2: course of the next thirty minutes they specifically talk about
Speaker 2: how those two put the Maronis behind bars so directly
Speaker 2: ties them into this mob, this crime story that Oz
Speaker 2: is tied into, and it really really hurts the end
Speaker 2: of this show that Batman does not pop up or
Speaker 2: is not mentioned.
Speaker 1: It just I'm mentioned.
Speaker 2: Isn't in there in those last couple episodes. Having it
Speaker 2: come up at the very end made no sense, and
Speaker 2: it just bothered me because it was like, Okay, they
Speaker 2: just threw it in there to please the fans. The
Speaker 2: bat signal should have come up weeks before that, way
Speaker 2: before that, and especially in episode seven when a whole
Speaker 2: fucking city block gets blown up. That that was it,
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: That was That was the breaking point for me, because
Speaker 1: they had done a very good job establishing that Oz
Speaker 1: was really good at working underneath everything and keeping everything
Speaker 1: as quiet as possible, but he's also someone that wants
Speaker 1: the spotlight and wants people to know what he's doing,
Speaker 1: So he might be someone that also wants Batman to
Speaker 1: know what he's doing too. Yeah, even in the movie
Speaker 1: he mentions the Batman, you know my reputation, right, and
Speaker 1: he's proud of it.
Speaker 2: The fact that Oz is at once even just shuddered
Speaker 2: by the fact that the bat that man might appear
Speaker 2: is bothersome when you rewatch the movie or remember what.
Speaker 1: Happened in the opening scene of the movie, not like
Speaker 1: the Riddler stuff for him investigating. When they show the
Speaker 1: lower level goons doing crimes, they're all looking over their
Speaker 1: shoulders because Batman's been doing it for a year and
Speaker 1: he's been beating the piss out of people.
Speaker 2: It's really bothersome. And also Gordon not popping up is bothersome,
Speaker 2: especially when he's tied into the mob stuff. That's a
Speaker 2: secondary thing to Batman.
Speaker 1: Are we being poopy pants fan boys right now? No?
Speaker 2: No, No, it's a big thing. It's a big thing.
Speaker 2: And again we scored the show still super high. But
Speaker 2: it is a big thing hanging over this show because
Speaker 2: like all you had to do was even have the
Speaker 2: bat signal in the background. It may pretend like he
Speaker 2: was doing something else. There was bigger fish to fry
Speaker 2: at the time, but they don't mention him. It's not
Speaker 2: in the back and just throwing it there at the
Speaker 2: end just to like, huh, tolgays here. That pissed me off.
Speaker 1: There was another Easter egg as well, not even an
Speaker 1: Easter egg, but like something that they should have mentioned
Speaker 1: in there is when so Fia was learning about the
Speaker 1: women that her father killed. Yeah, they should have had
Speaker 1: Selina Kyle's mother in there as a I hint toward
Speaker 1: the letter that she gets at the end of the show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's also this whole thing where the
Speaker 2: police are investigating the Falcone deaths, this big thing you
Speaker 2: probably would have called in Gordon and or Batman there,
Speaker 2: that's part of it. I don't know, it's just I
Speaker 2: don't it doesn't make sense secondary to that go And
Speaker 2: of course Reeves this in lefranc have been asked these questions.
Speaker 2: I think it's more a Reeve's question than is Lefron,
Speaker 2: because she was just given a task to make this
Speaker 2: show in between the movies. Reeves said and I quote
Speaker 2: that introducing Batman crossing in would mess with the narrative
Speaker 2: of the show, and with Oz, I think it had
Speaker 2: an adverse effect. I think not having him cross in
Speaker 2: at all sort of messed up the narrative of the
Speaker 2: show and of Oz. It did. It didn't make sense,
Speaker 2: it didn't jive, and I'm just bothered by it. I
Speaker 2: think we're harping on this because the show could have
Speaker 2: been even better, and it's just something that's lingering in
Speaker 2: the minds of almost everyone that watched this show.
Speaker 1: Outside of the well being of his mother. He had
Speaker 1: no fear in this show, right, right, and.
Speaker 2: He's clearly fearful of the Batman in the movie. So
Speaker 2: it's just those two things, those two ideas can't coexist.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're really sorry about that. This is a really
Speaker 1: good show. It's a very good show.
Speaker 2: Very good. Let's get to the finale.
Speaker 1: Good Okay.
Speaker 2: We find out at the beginning of this finale that
Speaker 2: Francis Oz's mom was going to have her own son
Speaker 2: Oz killed by Rex once she figured out he was
Speaker 2: responsible for her two other sons death. That's pretty fucking dark.
Speaker 1: Yeah, really, And I love how obsessed with his mother
Speaker 1: they made him in this show.
Speaker 2: And it's a real Oedipus complex.
Speaker 1: It is, and all he wants. His goal the entire
Speaker 1: time we learn of it, I think at the end
Speaker 1: of episode seven, is to put his mother in the
Speaker 1: highest building in Gotham. We're she can look over the city,
Speaker 1: and it's one of those you finally have time, you
Speaker 1: can read all the books, but your glasses break. She
Speaker 1: is no longer able to she's no longer able to move,
Speaker 1: she's she had a stroke. She's not really there, and
Speaker 1: he's not She's not able to enjoy it.
Speaker 2: What he worked for.
Speaker 1: Oz is able to put her in the highest room
Speaker 1: in Gotham, where she's able to look out, but she's
Speaker 1: not able to enjoy it.
Speaker 2: But because I actually that go ahead, that's he is
Speaker 2: purposefully putting her through that torture because of what she
Speaker 2: says to him in this finale episode.
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think that he's I think
Speaker 1: he's doing it because no, but he always wanted to
Speaker 1: get her approval and he always wanted her love. And
Speaker 1: he's like, this is what I summis to you, and
Speaker 1: this is what I promised you, and you pretty much
Speaker 1: said that if I do this, you're gonna love me.
Speaker 1: And while she wasn't able to talk, he had the
Speaker 1: prostitute dressed as his mother.
Speaker 2: Yeah and bizarre, but to that point, I think part
Speaker 2: of that why he's showing her and keeping her alive. There, mom,
Speaker 2: I did it. But now he's bragging about it because
Speaker 2: she also doubted him, which is what he finds out
Speaker 2: in this episode. Now he's sticking it to her. He's
Speaker 2: not he's not show.
Speaker 1: She did not doubt him. She wanted him dead. She
Speaker 1: fucking hates him.
Speaker 2: She said that, yeah, but didn't believe in him, and
Speaker 2: that is revealed in this episode.
Speaker 1: That's pretty me beyond doubt and not believing she wanted
Speaker 1: him dead.
Speaker 2: I know, but Oz doesn't find that out until this episode.
Speaker 2: So I think that that culmination her on the hospital
Speaker 2: bed on the eighty seventh floor, I think is him
Speaker 2: his last laugh to her, him sticking it to her.
Speaker 2: I do like that that club that they show Monroe's
Speaker 2: Club in the past and the present, that plays a
Speaker 2: big role on this That was a nice little setting.
Speaker 2: I am so so so glad that Sophia fal Cone
Speaker 2: didn't get killed. Where she ends up back in Arkham
Speaker 2: is so much better and so much worse for her character.
Speaker 2: I loved that scene. She was ready for death, she
Speaker 2: was accepting death. Fine, do it, I'm over it. I'm
Speaker 2: happy where I am. I'm happy with who I've become.
Speaker 2: And instead she's going back to Arkham. And on top
Speaker 2: of it, all of that exonerates Oz from everything, and
Speaker 2: it's a quote unquote a fate worse than death. She's
Speaker 2: going to hell, She's back in Arkham.
Speaker 1: I could have used a better Easter Egg at Arkham,
Speaker 1: like a character than Magpie.
Speaker 2: Sure, I don't even know who that is, but.
Speaker 1: You know what, maybe a young doctor named Harley and Quinzel.
Speaker 2: Well, I do think there is some some people are
Speaker 2: a little over the joker Harley Quinn thing. So I'm glad.
Speaker 1: I'm saying more like, she's not Harley Quinn yet, she's
Speaker 1: just the doctor there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, sure. We get a couple of snippets here
Speaker 2: of Bella Reale. You know, they're at the courthouse or whatever,
Speaker 2: at the whatever, which is nice because you know she
Speaker 2: has a decent relationship with Bruce in the movie. So
Speaker 2: that'll I'll come back to Goose Point. Oz thinks he's
Speaker 2: made out like a bandit in this finale, comes to
Speaker 2: find out his mom has begun a carrot. She's a vegetable.
Speaker 2: She's not She's not able to really enjoy anything in
Speaker 2: life anymore. She's essentially brain dead. She's there, but she's not.
Speaker 1: And she made a point either episode one or two
Speaker 1: being like, don't let me get to this point. Kill me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this all plays in that's that was in
Speaker 2: you know what I'm I'm thinking about sort of stumbling
Speaker 2: upon now when I think about it in my head.
Speaker 2: Ultimately this ruins the series of Dexter. But in Dexter
Speaker 2: Final ruins Dexter when Julie Ben's gets killed. That was
Speaker 2: the last tether Dexter had to being a human being
Speaker 2: in this The last tether that Oz had was his
Speaker 2: mother and the well being of his mother. And what
Speaker 2: happens in the first scene after he finds out his
Speaker 2: mother isn't there, he kills Vic. And what a visceral
Speaker 2: seeing that as it was heart wrenching, obviously emotional. I
Speaker 2: think we all start coming, right, we all knew this
Speaker 2: was the end game. I don't know.
Speaker 1: The first thing he says is you're like family to me,
Speaker 1: and then he Moid is him.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what Oz is realizing.
Speaker 1: He can't have family, That's what he realized.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he realizes Vic is a weakness for him, the
Speaker 2: way his mother was someone that could hold him back.
Speaker 2: And the extra thing there is I think also Oz
Speaker 2: is a little worried that Vic is too similar to
Speaker 2: him and eventually Vic might try to overthrow him the
Speaker 2: way Oz did with all the people of authority in
Speaker 2: his life. So it was twofold. There a very very
Speaker 2: visceral scene and really shows you he becomes the penguin
Speaker 2: in this moment. Right, he was Oz and now he's
Speaker 2: the penguin.
Speaker 1: He starts going.
Speaker 2: And then he fucking robs him afterwards.
Speaker 1: That was the best part of it, though brutal. Thanks
Speaker 1: for the twenty bucks, kid, I can go get some
Speaker 1: slush puppies.
Speaker 2: We see Sophia back in Arkham and what's his face?
Speaker 2: Doctor Julian Rush comes in with a letter addressed to
Speaker 2: her from her half sister, and go call me a
Speaker 2: fucking moron. I completely forgot It's a major part of
Speaker 2: the Batman and I hadn't rewatched it.
Speaker 1: I know that you don't like listening to me, but
Speaker 1: I mentioned it on a news dump roughly four weeks ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wasn't paying attention. I completely forgot that her
Speaker 2: half sister is Selena Kyle. So Selena Kyle shoots her
Speaker 2: a telegram at Arkham, and I guess this is a
Speaker 2: pretty decent storyline in the comics, so they're gonna obviously
Speaker 2: play with this. I would be surprised if Selena doesn't, like,
Speaker 2: maybe try to break Sophia out of Arkham or something
Speaker 2: like that. That'd be kind of interesting to see going forward.
Speaker 1: Maybe there is a lawyer that can help them, maybe
Speaker 1: a da Maybe there is a RV.
Speaker 2: Dent hey, hey, And again, compare these or contrasting these
Speaker 2: two characters as we talked about Oz is seeking the
Speaker 2: way that people look at Sophia in this world the hangman.
Speaker 2: Oz is seeking that and Sophia is trying to get
Speaker 2: away from it. It's a great back and forth. And
Speaker 2: then secondary to that, Oz has learned he wants no family.
Speaker 2: But by the end of this Sophia is like comforted
Speaker 2: by the fact that she still has family left. Yes,
Speaker 2: she desires that, she seeks that, and it's just funny
Speaker 2: to see how these two are thrown into the same
Speaker 2: blender and they end up in completely different spots.
Speaker 1: Really like that how at the end of episode four
Speaker 1: when she murders her whole family and she embraces being
Speaker 1: the hangman and she stops wearing stuff around her neck
Speaker 1: and then you have like the the little things around
Speaker 1: her neck. She's not afraid to show him off anymore
Speaker 1: because if that's what people want, that's what she'll give them.
Speaker 2: And I also like like because in that scene, what
Speaker 2: she's realizing is they aren't her family that might be
Speaker 2: by blood, and that's why she goes by Jigante after that.
Speaker 2: They weren't her family members, they just happened to be
Speaker 2: related to her, So that that's why that episode was
Speaker 2: the best episode of the season, and that's why Sophia
Speaker 2: Falcone is the best character in this show. Good We
Speaker 2: get as he walks into this whatever one hundred and
Speaker 2: four penthouse, he's holding the top hat, puts it down
Speaker 2: next to the umbrella, and we see he's wearing the
Speaker 2: tuxedo as well. He's in his full penguin ensemble. They
Speaker 2: don't really beat you over the head with it, but
Speaker 2: it's a nice little nod to what the character generally
Speaker 2: looks like.
Speaker 1: In the comments, I wanted him to pick up an
Speaker 1: umbrella to shoot someone. And then it opens and there's
Speaker 1: a carousel on there and he says, ah, a trick umbrella.
Speaker 2: We get to the final scene with him and Eve
Speaker 2: and him and his mother. Eve is wearing his mother's dress.
Speaker 2: It's a very bizarre scene speaks to how insane Oz is,
Speaker 2: and again Oz gets everything he wants wants ultimately, but
Speaker 2: it's a tragic end because he works so hard to
Speaker 2: get where he has and now his mom can't even
Speaker 2: reap the benefits of it. All his loved ones are
Speaker 2: dead ye and it's just him and Eve has this quote,
Speaker 2: nothing's standing in your way now, and then we get
Speaker 2: the bat signal.
Speaker 1: Right, And he also something that he always wanted was
Speaker 1: that he wanted to be like Rex, and he wanted
Speaker 1: the admiration and the love of his.
Speaker 2: He wants to be like Sophia.
Speaker 1: Well, he wanted to be more like Rex. He wanted
Speaker 1: the admiration and the love of his community. He wanted
Speaker 1: to be the person that everyone goes to. But he
Speaker 1: also made the point of like he's cut ties with
Speaker 1: everybody now and he hasn't quite gotten that. So he's
Speaker 1: using you know, his female friend there to just just
Speaker 1: tell him what he wants to hear in his warped
Speaker 1: mind of what he now believes the world is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and going forward here, I guess we'll start with
Speaker 2: the Oz stuff. I think it's pretty clear with him
Speaker 2: in that scene in the courtroom, in the Mayor's chair whatever,
Speaker 2: they're going to pursue this whole Mayor Penguin, mayor ODZ
Speaker 2: storyline that's popped up a couple times before, and I
Speaker 2: think that definitely lays the groundwork for Court of Vowel stuff, right,
Speaker 2: Like that's gonna have to.
Speaker 1: Play any buy like, yeah, Batman three or a show
Speaker 1: or something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe in between but I think you'll get the
Speaker 2: groundwork laid for that in the second movie. Dude. One
Speaker 2: of the biggest questions or theories online is that doctor
Speaker 2: Julian Rush, who we see help Sophia and still his
Speaker 2: kind of helping Sophia at the end, You're not quite
Speaker 2: sure is he gonna be a meaningful character going forward.
Speaker 2: There were some Scarecrow talk right away, but I think
Speaker 2: I think you might be on to what he really
Speaker 2: is gonna be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think that he might be the Mad Hatter.
Speaker 1: I think that they're gonna go a little outside the
Speaker 1: box here and just not use all the same Christopher
Speaker 1: Nolan characters as well. But the Mad Hatter is a
Speaker 1: master hypnotist, which we see in most of the episodes
Speaker 1: here with him, he has those red red lights that
Speaker 1: people kind of thought, oh, that's like a fear talks
Speaker 1: and no, it's.
Speaker 2: It's not giving Scarecrow at all.
Speaker 1: No, he's a Gotham City adversary of Batman. Jarvis Tech
Speaker 1: is the character's name. He's delusional and believes that he
Speaker 1: is the incarnation of the Hatter from Alice in Wonderland.
Speaker 1: But they could also kind of make that more of
Speaker 1: a reality thing where he believes that he's something more
Speaker 1: than he is. And I know in certain comics or
Speaker 1: in the Batman the animated series, he obsesses over a
Speaker 1: woman named Alice. You could just substitute that with he
Speaker 1: obsesses over Sophia.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And we've already seen this universe change names a
Speaker 2: little bit. We've seen it in the Spider Man movies.
Speaker 2: You know, mj isn't Mary Jane. Like, I'm perfectly fine
Speaker 2: changing names of most characters. It doesn't fly to me
Speaker 2: too much.
Speaker 1: Actually, Julian Rush not that far off. We're looking syllables
Speaker 1: with Jervis Lush. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Close. Another thing people were talking about online, and I
Speaker 2: don't really subscribe to this because I think it's pretty
Speaker 2: definitive at the end there people were wondering if vic
Speaker 2: is one hundred percent dead again? This is a comic
Speaker 2: book franchise. After also, is anyone really dead to me?
Speaker 2: I think so yes, But they think he could come
Speaker 2: back and play something down the line.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because people were saying of Victor Zaz but was
Speaker 1: that just because of his name?
Speaker 2: Probably? Yeah, yea, that makes sense. And then of course
Speaker 2: we get this Sophia Selena storyline that's brewing and I
Speaker 2: think I think for sure what we'll get the groundwork
Speaker 2: laid for in the second movie and maybe see in
Speaker 2: a second show is Sophia Selena's stuff or maybe that
Speaker 2: comes up in the movie, and then Oz and court
Speaker 2: of Owl's type of stuff more more of the politicking,
Speaker 2: behind the scenes stuff of Gotham that we haven't seen
Speaker 2: too too much yet.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that you could do and
Speaker 1: we're gonna get to this more on your sack, but
Speaker 1: I think that you could do an amazing job with
Speaker 1: a character that we have seen many times, but given
Speaker 1: eight episodes, Harvey Dent, you could really flesh out that character.
Speaker 1: Like think to the Dark Night. We we got a
Speaker 1: lot of Harvey Dent, not a lot of two face.
Speaker 2: The only thing I'll say to that, Ku and this
Speaker 2: will we will have to see who the villain's going
Speaker 2: to be in the second movie. But I don't want
Speaker 2: to happen, which happens a ton in third movies of trilogies,
Speaker 2: as them throw like eight villains on the last movie
Speaker 2: because there's so many people in play, so they sort
Speaker 2: of have to concentrate, you know, pick a couple of
Speaker 2: lanes here. They can't do too much. Well.
Speaker 1: No, but even if you have a bunch of villains
Speaker 1: that you show in the shows or like even to
Speaker 1: show for a second in the movies, they don't have
Speaker 1: to be central characters to the movies.
Speaker 2: No, I know, but once you introduce them, you kind
Speaker 2: of have to sort of see that through.
Speaker 1: No, because if you do a ton of Harvey Dent
Speaker 1: and then you end two face and then you just
Speaker 1: put them in Arkham, then you're all set.
Speaker 2: Well, then you're like, why did we even do this?
Speaker 1: Well, if you're giving me more Sophia fl Cone, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna take it.
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, all right, God, I don't think we need
Speaker 2: to run through episode by episode. I think we kind
Speaker 2: of hit everything.
Speaker 1: No, but I will mention I do love the slush
Speaker 1: puppy stuff from the first episode end.
Speaker 2: Of the first episode. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I do like the flashbacks to Arkham with Sophia in
Speaker 1: her episodes.
Speaker 2: That was episode three or episode four.
Speaker 1: Actually, I also love seeing her breaking point of when
Speaker 1: she's like, fuck it, I'm gonna start killing people. Vic's
Speaker 1: crown point backstory was very good, and then also when
Speaker 1: he took the penguin's mom there and she's like fuck
Speaker 1: him back and Crown Point. Are we serious right now?
Speaker 2: I think too there could have been born here. But
Speaker 2: because they wrote the characters so well, we were so
Speaker 2: invested in these characters that all this backstory stuff and
Speaker 2: all this flashback stuff really worked. We see that done
Speaker 2: in other shows that it doesn't work because you don't
Speaker 2: care about the characters, but it worked for this show.
Speaker 1: Two things. Actually, there's a really good in Crown Point.
Speaker 1: You can see where the water level was, like where
Speaker 1: it hit with like the discolorations on the buildings and
Speaker 1: on the houses there. And then also I love how
Speaker 1: if there's a big crowd of people, kind of like
Speaker 1: a protest, you'll see random posters for the Riddler in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, still a thing.
Speaker 1: Episode four is the best of the episodes. I would
Speaker 1: say Episode five has the cooking with Maroni and Sophia.
Speaker 1: He makes that delicious egg plant soup.
Speaker 2: I believe it was the most fotherly experienced she had
Speaker 2: ever had, which was which was nice for the character.
Speaker 1: Episode five I believe kills Squid I Hate Squid might
Speaker 1: be episode six actually, I think.
Speaker 2: I think it was, uh yeah, somewhere in there when
Speaker 2: Vic just gets sick of him and finally shoots some
Speaker 2: of the face.
Speaker 1: And then I believe Episode five is when him is
Speaker 1: when Oz and Vic finally cut ties. Come Actually, episode
Speaker 1: three is when he cuts ties with Sophia because uh
Speaker 1: Vic hits the Marony's and leaves Sophia for dead pream.
Speaker 2: They jumped the flashback at the at the end of
Speaker 2: episode three. Beginning of four, episode five, Oz has TikTok. Well,
Speaker 2: TikTok's on the phone. I don't know if Oz has TikTok.
Speaker 1: I was like a check out my scroll. He starts
Speaker 1: scrolling through by dance. Uh oh the drug Layer. I
Speaker 1: love how he goes his drug layer is where he
Speaker 1: killed his brothers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really fucked up thing. We already harped
Speaker 2: on it again. I guess no one really knows where
Speaker 2: the bat Cave is, but seemingly building your drug layer
Speaker 2: in an underground tunnel system where Batman is lingering is
Speaker 2: a bad idea.
Speaker 1: I also love when Maroney dies and Oz is like,
Speaker 1: you fuck, I'm supposed to kill you. Don't die of
Speaker 1: a heart attack.
Speaker 2: And then he shoots him like three times. Oh. Here's
Speaker 2: the big thing with the timeline that I really felt
Speaker 2: like it had to have taken place over a couple
Speaker 2: of months. So he gets that underground layer and what
Speaker 2: are we maybe a week two weeks into the show,
Speaker 2: it cuts to later the whole layer is filled with
Speaker 2: mushrooms that had to have taken weeks to grow all
Speaker 2: that shit. So this show for sure had to have
Speaker 2: taken place over like six weeks to two months. And
Speaker 2: if it's any less than that, I'm gonna have a
Speaker 2: hard time believing the timeline here I am.
Speaker 1: I think we're good. I think we're good. On Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love the show. I enjoyed it greatly, but mentioned Batman.
Speaker 1: Please let's get into Maxack and Mac Sak could be
Speaker 1: anything that could be a boat, and we will look
Speaker 1: at what is coming up in this universe. What did
Speaker 1: Matt Reeves say? Mac?
Speaker 2: Of course, coming off our award winning Figy says, we're
Speaker 2: here with Reeves says Goo. Reeves says The Penguin Season
Speaker 2: two is now being discussed. I think this began as
Speaker 2: a one off mini series, and now I think because
Speaker 2: people like this show so much and because there's more
Speaker 2: story to tell, they're beginning to discuss the second season
Speaker 2: of this. I ask you, do we need it? Do
Speaker 2: we want it.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I need it. I think I
Speaker 1: would prefer getting other characters. Do I want it? Sure,
Speaker 1: I would definitely watch. I know. At the beginning of
Speaker 1: the season, Colin Ferrell made a point of like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to do a season two. This is a
Speaker 1: lot of makeup and a lot of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've told our Oz Penguin story here.
Speaker 2: I don't think we need a penguin season two. I'm
Speaker 2: happy to watch him pop up in other stories in
Speaker 2: this universe. I don't think I need it. I don't
Speaker 2: think I want it. I think it's just going to
Speaker 2: diminish what we've already gotten to that point. Carlin Ferrell
Speaker 2: has already revealed that he has five or six scenes
Speaker 2: in The Batman two and is attached to star in
Speaker 2: that third movie. Yeah, so we already know he's not
Speaker 2: going to die into which makes sense. I think he's
Speaker 2: still gonna be kind of playing behind the scenes in
Speaker 2: the second movie. So maybe there is ram for season
Speaker 2: two between movie two and three. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Colin Farrell was also on Hot Ones. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it was recently, whatever it is, but he was
Speaker 1: talking about how actors always talk about you know, you
Speaker 1: do one artsy movie for yourself and then a blockbuster
Speaker 1: for you know, for the money or for the fans,
Speaker 1: and it's like, no, this is this is all for
Speaker 1: you because you get the money from that movie and
Speaker 1: then you get to act it up in this one.
Speaker 1: And so stop saying one for you, one for me,
Speaker 1: It's all for you.
Speaker 2: Eat both twigs.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love Colin Ferrell.
Speaker 2: He's pretty great.
Speaker 1: So then the question that I hear for you, Mac
Speaker 1: is if we're not going to get a Penguin, which
Speaker 1: I don't know if we need another Penguin season, what
Speaker 1: Batman character would you like to see get their own
Speaker 1: season of television.
Speaker 2: So I think it'll tie in well, and you've already
Speaker 2: mentioned Tim, I think it would tie in well with
Speaker 2: what they're building underneath. The overall story is this Gotham
Speaker 2: and the politics and the corrupt politics. Really feels like
Speaker 2: a Harvey Dent Court of Vowel situation would play out
Speaker 2: really well. So I do think like a two faced
Speaker 2: Harvey Dent type of season would would work really well.
Speaker 2: I feel like this second movie, the closure we get
Speaker 2: to it, I'm starting to feel like more and more
Speaker 2: it's gonna be mister Freeze as the villain, and we're
Speaker 2: dealing with a winter type of setting. It's been awfully
Speaker 2: silent on the villain front with this movie, and we
Speaker 2: have introduced and talked about other villains. So I'm starting
Speaker 2: to think Freeze is going to be the primary villain
Speaker 2: of The Batman too.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say because I would love a mister
Speaker 1: Freeze television show. I don't know how cost effective that
Speaker 1: would be though, because his power is the cgi the
Speaker 1: effects that you would need for that character. I would
Speaker 1: love a Heart of Ice type of story.
Speaker 2: But I think that backstory you can do in a movie.
Speaker 1: No, No, you can still do it in the movie.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I want mister Freeze. I would really
Speaker 1: like mister Freeze. I think if you're looking to spend
Speaker 1: the same amount of money, like you know, not a
Speaker 1: ton of effects. More a dialogue driven show, a character
Speaker 1: driven show, Harvey Dent makes a lot of sense because
Speaker 1: you can just pick up this story with Harvey Dent
Speaker 1: and how he'll now deal with these characters. I really
Speaker 1: would love, and I don't think they would do. This
Speaker 1: is a clayface television show. I think there is a
Speaker 1: lot that you can do with this actor who is
Speaker 1: aging and then gets into a car accident disfigured, much
Speaker 1: like this substance relies on something to make him good
Speaker 1: looking again, and then this starts to warp his body
Speaker 1: in his mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that's a bad idea. They just
Speaker 2: haven't laid the groundwork for any of that, so it
Speaker 2: would catch me by surprise if they went that route.
Speaker 1: You also need a big enough name, like maybe you
Speaker 1: could do a clay Face in the background. Could do
Speaker 1: I don't even think you could do a Mad Hatter show.
Speaker 1: You would need him to be a background character.
Speaker 2: That's why I also starting to think because to me,
Speaker 2: like Riddler is not a tier B tier villain, which
Speaker 2: is why I loved Readler in the first movie. And
Speaker 2: I think Freeze is in that same tier, which is
Speaker 2: why it's starting to feel more and more like that.
Speaker 1: I think you could name a show Freeze. I think
Speaker 1: you could name a show two Face. I think that
Speaker 1: there are characters like that. I don't want a joker show.
Speaker 1: I'm all set with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree, but we're joking out for now.
Speaker 1: I think you need at least a B level villain,
Speaker 1: someone I think you need a villain that popped up
Speaker 1: many times on the Adam West Show or someone that
Speaker 1: was in the Burton Schumacher verse. Those are pretty well
Speaker 1: known villains. I think once you go deeper into the
Speaker 1: CD level, that might be a tough sell for HBO.
Speaker 2: Well. Yeah, and they also haven't really gotten into the
Speaker 2: you know, souped up power types like poison Ivy, So
Speaker 2: I don't think we're gonna deal with and Ivy in
Speaker 2: this universe. You know, something would have to happen. Maybe
Speaker 2: the free stuff gets that roll in a little bit.
Speaker 2: But like because it has been very real realism has
Speaker 2: been part of this Reeves verse, so it'll be interesting
Speaker 2: to see if they cross that line at all and
Speaker 2: get into some of that more supernatural shit.
Speaker 1: I also would have loved really anyone from the bat family,
Speaker 1: whether it be any of the Robins or Batgirl, but
Speaker 1: we're in year two of Batman, possibly getting closer to
Speaker 1: year three, we wouldn't have any of those characters yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hush is the other one that everyone wanted when
Speaker 2: the first movie can't finished. There there's a lot of
Speaker 2: talk of that, so I think, to me, it's down
Speaker 2: to Hush to freeze for this for the second movie,
Speaker 2: and hopefully we'll have that answer within the next few months,
Speaker 2: right once they start shooting and we're gonna have a
Speaker 2: good idea of where the villain is.
Speaker 1: All right, Mac, where can the people find us?
Speaker 2: You can find us on x and on Instagram, at
Speaker 2: Mac and goop podcast every other platform. We are mac
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Speaker 2: your tuning, Castbucks, speak of Google Play. I alright, radio.
Speaker 2: We are on Spotify, but more importantly we're on Apple Podcasts.
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Speaker 1: Tepupk dot com check us out. At the beginning of
Speaker 1: next week four a news dump. And then we're getting
Speaker 1: close to movies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have uh I know next weekend Gladiator, Gladiators
Speaker 2: next week, I believe, so we'll see oh yeah, and
Speaker 2: Wicked right Wicked, Yeah, So I guess we'll probably do
Speaker 2: Gladiator at some point.
Speaker 1: Let's just do a fucking feature and we'll call it
Speaker 1: one of those dumb names that everyone has.
Speaker 2: What's it called clicked, clicked or or Wadiator.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go Watiator. I like that better. Okay, all right, sure,
Speaker 1: so check us out. Then Tam Burton by ye please
Speaker 1: flip the cassette over to side B to continue the adventure.
Speaker 1: Now it's time for girls jumping on trampolines.