1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,040
Speaker 1: There we go. Yeah, now we're just waiting on. We're

2
00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:06,400
Speaker 1: gonna get robbercy and witness protection. Also, like Peter, ask

3
00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:11,560
Speaker 1: not what your country can do for you, ask what

4
00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,240
Speaker 1: you can do for your country.

5
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,760
Speaker 2: Mister garbachaw tear down this wall.

6
00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,879
Speaker 3: It's the Ricochet Podcast with Rob Long and Stephen Hayward.

7
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,079
Speaker 3: I'm James Lillax and today we talked de roy to

8
00:00:24,199 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 3: Schera about demographics, democrats, the election, So let severs was

9
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:29,359
Speaker 3: a podcast.

10
00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:30,199
Speaker 4: Remember this.

11
00:00:31,079 --> 00:00:33,240
Speaker 5: Our enemies are your enemies.

12
00:00:33,719 --> 00:00:35,840
Speaker 6: Our fight is your fight, and.

13
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,479
Speaker 5: Our victory will be your victory.

14
00:00:40,799 --> 00:00:43,399
Speaker 2: Nothing you can come in a way of saving our

15
00:00:43,399 --> 00:00:49,159
Speaker 2: democracy that includes personal ambition. So I've decided the best

16
00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,479
Speaker 2: way forward is the past, the torch for new generation.

17
00:00:56,759 --> 00:00:58,560
Speaker 7: Welcome everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast.

18
00:00:58,640 --> 00:00:59,000
Speaker 5: Number.

19
00:00:59,679 --> 00:01:02,119
Speaker 3: Well, I've been waiting for this for years. It's the

20
00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,599
Speaker 3: number of the area code of the house where I

21
00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,480
Speaker 3: grew up, seven oh one. I still remember my I

22
00:01:09,519 --> 00:01:12,200
Speaker 3: remember my childhood, my childhood phone number seven on one.

23
00:01:12,439 --> 00:01:14,079
Speaker 3: I probably shouldn't say it, but I had the same

24
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,400
Speaker 3: My parents had the same phone number for decades, which

25
00:01:17,519 --> 00:01:19,519
Speaker 3: is a by gone A a by gone time, and

26
00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,079
Speaker 3: B a sign that I probably had a stable upbringing,

27
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 3: which I did, which makes me the high bound person

28
00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 3: resistant to change that I am today I am? Did

29
00:01:28,879 --> 00:01:32,719
Speaker 3: I say James Lilas Minneapolis? Yeah, Rob Long Gotham. People

30
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,000
Speaker 3: in New York hate when they say that.

31
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,480
Speaker 7: Too bad. Stephen Hayward is an in Frisco, so I.

32
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,200
Speaker 3: Can even complete the bicoastal injury. Steven Hayward was sitting

33
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,480
Speaker 3: in for Peter Robinson. Welcome guys, What a week again?

34
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 7: Where to start?

35
00:01:48,439 --> 00:01:51,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to go with a big cliche, and the

36
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 3: big cliche is, okay, if you had a bunch of

37
00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 3: crazy right wingers shown up in Washington, d C. With

38
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,799
Speaker 3: a giant statue of a class shade Jew with a

39
00:02:00,799 --> 00:02:03,040
Speaker 3: big nose and horns and blood dripping out of his mouth,

40
00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,840
Speaker 3: and they defaced all the monuments and wrote to angry things,

41
00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,719
Speaker 3: I think we would be having a conversation about civil order.

42
00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,879
Speaker 3: But we're not the people who do. Who descended and

43
00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,319
Speaker 3: had basically a fascist Jew hating rally and defaced a

44
00:02:16,319 --> 00:02:17,360
Speaker 3: whole bunch of things.

45
00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,599
Speaker 7: And I hate the defacement.

46
00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,960
Speaker 3: You know, some got arrested and charges dropped, and Kamala

47
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,319
Speaker 3: Harris has deplored the violence. But whether or not she

48
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,120
Speaker 3: would advocate for these people to be actually clapped in irons,

49
00:02:31,159 --> 00:02:33,759
Speaker 3: are sent off to the Who's goal is something I

50
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,639
Speaker 3: suppose we'll find in her new I forget. Has she

51
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,599
Speaker 3: reincardinated herself as the old iteration of tough on crime?

52
00:02:41,199 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 3: Or are we still in the twenty twenty mode?

53
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:44,520
Speaker 7: What do you think is?

54
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:45,039
Speaker 5: Which?

55
00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:49,879
Speaker 3: Which one are we going to see in this election cycle? Guys, Steve, oh,

56
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,159
Speaker 3: you want me? You want me to go for dicta Right?

57
00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:55,240
Speaker 6: Well, I mean I don't know.

58
00:02:55,319 --> 00:02:57,719
Speaker 1: I'm in the camp that thinks we're about to get

59
00:02:57,719 --> 00:03:01,080
Speaker 1: a rerun in some ways of the Night eighty eight campaign.

60
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,800
Speaker 1: You may remember the Ducaucus argued in his famous speech,

61
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,800
Speaker 1: this selection is not about ideology, it's about competence, which

62
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,639
Speaker 1: meant he wanted to disguise his ideology. And according to

63
00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,639
Speaker 1: some polls he was seventeen points ahead of George H. W.

64
00:03:14,719 --> 00:03:15,159
Speaker 6: Bush.

65
00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,680
Speaker 1: Bush ended up winning by eight. She had almost twenty

66
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,520
Speaker 1: five percent swing. And so right now there's a big

67
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,680
Speaker 1: surge for Harris. Her approval ratings were up fifteen points.

68
00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:28,319
Speaker 1: She's up maybe above water, above fifty. But I think,

69
00:03:28,439 --> 00:03:30,960
Speaker 1: I mean, among other things, she's going to try and

70
00:03:31,039 --> 00:03:33,400
Speaker 1: straddle her past record, and I don't think she'll be

71
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,840
Speaker 1: able to get away with that once the Trump campaigns

72
00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 1: opens up on her. And like Ducoccus, I think she

73
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,919
Speaker 1: has her own Willy Horton problem. You know, we've got

74
00:03:40,919 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 1: the receipts of her urging people on Twitter to donate

75
00:03:44,639 --> 00:03:48,280
Speaker 1: to a bail fund for the Black Lives Matter rioters

76
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,319
Speaker 1: in Minnesota in twenty twenty one of whom was bailed

77
00:03:51,319 --> 00:03:54,199
Speaker 1: out and went out and murdered someone just like Willie

78
00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:57,479
Speaker 1: Horton thirty some years ago. And I think he's going

79
00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,560
Speaker 1: to have a hard time. She'll lie about it, the

80
00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 1: media will cover up. By the way, last point, I

81
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,199
Speaker 1: you know, the media is trying to give fake news

82
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,479
Speaker 1: a bad name right now the way they're covering up

83
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,879
Speaker 1: for her past. Right, she was never called the borders

84
00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: are never But even though what Google will bring up

85
00:04:13,039 --> 00:04:16,279
Speaker 1: thirty one thousand mentions of Kamela as the borders are.

86
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,319
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. Although you know, I've been joking that maybe

87
00:04:20,319 --> 00:04:23,199
Speaker 1: they're right. You really can't be a czar unless you're

88
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,199
Speaker 1: from the Tsarist region of Mother Russia. Everything else is

89
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: just sparkling Habsburg aristocracy.

90
00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:32,920
Speaker 8: Well, she was a bizarre in the sense of the czar.

91
00:04:33,199 --> 00:04:37,120
Speaker 8: You know, they they presided over chaos. They didn't write much.

92
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:38,480
Speaker 8: So yeah, there's a little that.

93
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,600
Speaker 7: What did docacas in Was it the dandie and a

94
00:04:40,639 --> 00:04:42,120
Speaker 7: helmet in the tank moment.

95
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:42,439
Speaker 5: Or was it?

96
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,360
Speaker 8: I was also that there was no I mean, it

97
00:04:45,439 --> 00:04:47,319
Speaker 8: was a change election kind of, but there was no

98
00:04:47,759 --> 00:04:50,519
Speaker 8: argument for change in eighty eight because the things were

99
00:04:50,519 --> 00:04:57,519
Speaker 8: going great. And I mean the hard part about his

100
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,360
Speaker 8: you know, campaign histories and looking for signs in the

101
00:05:02,399 --> 00:05:07,680
Speaker 8: past for me is that we've never had so many

102
00:05:07,759 --> 00:05:10,959
Speaker 8: candidates running for higher office that so much of the

103
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:16,399
Speaker 8: country despises, not is indifferent to, not doesn't know, but

104
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 8: actively loads. And so you have this sort of bizar

105
00:05:20,399 --> 00:05:22,439
Speaker 8: the Democratic side, you have this bizarre kind of like

106
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,959
Speaker 8: a you know, cultish thrill, like they're all kind of

107
00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:28,120
Speaker 8: in their weird zone where they think it's going to happen.

108
00:05:28,439 --> 00:05:31,920
Speaker 8: Everybody loves her. They know people hate her.

109
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,480
Speaker 5: And they hate the Democrats, and they hate what they

110
00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:34,759
Speaker 5: did on the border and they what they did it

111
00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:37,160
Speaker 5: in crime and the Yeah, these Republicans saying he's gonna win,

112
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,360
Speaker 5: My guy's gonna win. Buy a landslide. Don't know, everyone

113
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,560
Speaker 5: who hated him still really hates him. That's a whole

114
00:05:41,639 --> 00:05:42,240
Speaker 5: lot of people.

115
00:05:44,199 --> 00:05:46,399
Speaker 8: So the best way, which is which is not the

116
00:05:46,439 --> 00:05:48,600
Speaker 8: case in eighty eight that nobody had ever heard of

117
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,040
Speaker 8: Caucus and people were indifferent at the worst. To George H. W. Boyce,

118
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,639
Speaker 8: they are indifferent. So this is going to be a

119
00:05:55,639 --> 00:05:58,720
Speaker 8: really interesting few months. What's fascinating about it is that

120
00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:00,839
Speaker 8: I think the one thing we're gona be able to

121
00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,240
Speaker 8: take away from historically is that.

122
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,600
Speaker 5: We now know I think.

123
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,879
Speaker 8: I mean, however Kamala Harris does, She's not gonna get trounced.

124
00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:12,160
Speaker 8: She's gonna do. You know, She's gonna either win or

125
00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,079
Speaker 8: lose by a small amount. And that's probably what Trump

126
00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:17,720
Speaker 8: will winner loses by it. Right, And we're going to

127
00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,360
Speaker 8: discover is that these things go on too long that

128
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,480
Speaker 8: you can't actually in the middle of the summer throw

129
00:06:24,519 --> 00:06:26,040
Speaker 8: in a candidate and have an election.

130
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,680
Speaker 5: Kind of other countries do this too, for a slightly

131
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:29,600
Speaker 5: less important job.

132
00:06:29,639 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 8: But like, yeah, I have an election in November a

133
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,439
Speaker 8: few months later, and everybody's happy with that. Like, I

134
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,399
Speaker 8: don't think anybody's going to be complaining, Like, well, I

135
00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:39,720
Speaker 8: really wish that had started a year ago. Like most

136
00:06:39,759 --> 00:06:42,319
Speaker 8: people are like, man, yeah, these things go on too long.

137
00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 8: We're gonna this is this is an experiment in that

138
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,199
Speaker 8: and I suspect that I don't know how we how

139
00:06:48,199 --> 00:06:50,480
Speaker 8: far you can take this in terms of political logic,

140
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,000
Speaker 8: But I suspect that we'll discover that they go on

141
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,879
Speaker 8: too long and that it and I think there's a

142
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:03,240
Speaker 8: secret desire, not to desire, but I think they're happy. These

143
00:07:03,519 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 8: political operative class of people are happy to have the

144
00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:11,839
Speaker 8: candidates despised. It's easier because then you're only going to

145
00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,959
Speaker 8: win by like a few points anyway, right, that's their

146
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,399
Speaker 8: whole goal in the in the brain trust of the

147
00:07:17,439 --> 00:07:19,839
Speaker 8: Democratic Party Republican Party. That point is that I want

148
00:07:19,839 --> 00:07:21,560
Speaker 8: to win by one. Right, That's how smart I am.

149
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 8: I can win by one.

150
00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 5: So if you do that much except run negative bads,

151
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,879
Speaker 5: you can see the guy which everybody prefers because it's easier.

152
00:07:32,399 --> 00:07:35,759
Speaker 8: So I feel like we're in a really good political

153
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,839
Speaker 8: science laboratory right now.

154
00:07:37,879 --> 00:07:40,600
Speaker 5: That will be interesting to see it unfold.

155
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,879
Speaker 3: Well, when you say that everybody despises them, wrong, I

156
00:07:44,879 --> 00:07:49,959
Speaker 3: think you've completely misjudged the electorate. Everybody loves Kamala Harris.

157
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,879
Speaker 3: This is what we've learned in the last week we're

158
00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,560
Speaker 3: besotted by her. We had an opinion piece in my

159
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,199
Speaker 3: paper today which began the antidote to Mega is feminist

160
00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:02,240
Speaker 3: laughter right away, sort of coming up against the contant

161
00:08:02,399 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 3: an oxy North make America.

162
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,920
Speaker 5: The joke, how many feminists to take the Screon light

163
00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:08,360
Speaker 5: bulb right?

164
00:08:08,439 --> 00:08:11,519
Speaker 7: That's not funny, that's not funny. That's right.

165
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 3: So her laughter, says the piece has become a national

166
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,199
Speaker 3: contagious laughter, has become a national symbol of collective healing,

167
00:08:19,439 --> 00:08:22,079
Speaker 3: affirming the powers of joy to unite community across bitter

168
00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,360
Speaker 3: divisions of culture and identity. So the fact that she

169
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,360
Speaker 3: laughs and it's not put down as a Hillary cackle,

170
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 3: I guess, is going to be the thing that carriers

171
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 3: her to mass affirmation. So I think you're misjudging that,

172
00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:35,639
Speaker 3: just as you're misjudging the fact that a lot of

173
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,039
Speaker 3: people who are voting for Trump are doing so with

174
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,320
Speaker 3: complete admiration of his messiah like stature. I mean, in

175
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,360
Speaker 3: other words, yes, I think you're absolutely correct. I mean,

176
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,320
Speaker 3: one of the big things on Twitter this week is

177
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,600
Speaker 3: the strange things that jd Vance has been saying about

178
00:08:51,639 --> 00:08:53,840
Speaker 3: women and cat ladies and single cat ladies and the

179
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,039
Speaker 3: rest of it, as if this is a demographic that's

180
00:08:56,039 --> 00:08:58,440
Speaker 3: on the costpin. You know, he could just need a

181
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,440
Speaker 3: little nudge to shove him over to vote Trump. But

182
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,639
Speaker 3: now he's done it. Now anyway, Stephen, Well.

183
00:09:05,159 --> 00:09:08,559
Speaker 1: Look, it was nice having an honest and objective news

184
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,240
Speaker 1: media for at least a month. I think we can

185
00:09:10,279 --> 00:09:13,519
Speaker 1: file it away for the future. Right now they're back

186
00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:16,440
Speaker 1: to their old mode. Look, I do think also I

187
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,960
Speaker 1: was going to say this about people despising Trump. Certainly

188
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,399
Speaker 1: the Democratic base in the media do. But you know,

189
00:09:22,519 --> 00:09:25,600
Speaker 1: his approval ratings have actually been rising a bit ever

190
00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,399
Speaker 1: since the shooting. And I think for the same Reagan

191
00:09:28,519 --> 00:09:31,240
Speaker 1: reason that Reagan's did in nineteen eighty one. The knock

192
00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:33,879
Speaker 1: on Reagan was he's a Hollywood cut out, He's not

193
00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:36,639
Speaker 1: really a real person, he's a creature's staff. And his

194
00:09:36,759 --> 00:09:39,840
Speaker 1: response to that dispelled all that. And likewise, with Trump,

195
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,279
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people who may not like

196
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,039
Speaker 1: him still, but they don't they no longer think that

197
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: he's also a fraud of some kind. I mean, he showed,

198
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,399
Speaker 1: you know, as we saw that day, we saw the

199
00:09:49,399 --> 00:09:52,279
Speaker 1: real Trump emerged, I think, and more people respect that

200
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,519
Speaker 1: and That's why I think you still give him the advantage.

201
00:09:56,399 --> 00:09:58,399
Speaker 5: I would say, probably give him the advantage.

202
00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:01,279
Speaker 8: But I mean, I just I think all the Trump

203
00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,120
Speaker 8: supporters and the Kammala supporters have the same kind of

204
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 8: delusional quality that when they're surrounded by people who love

205
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,840
Speaker 8: the guy or love their guy, they just think that's everybody,

206
00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:13,519
Speaker 8: We're going to win, and they just forget that these

207
00:10:13,519 --> 00:10:19,799
Speaker 8: are polarizing politicians who have very very very poor, clumsy

208
00:10:19,879 --> 00:10:24,399
Speaker 8: maladuat ways of appealing to the center, and they turn

209
00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:27,960
Speaker 8: people away, they turn the Democrats and the Republicans, and

210
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 8: it's a hard thing because you wake up and it's

211
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,559
Speaker 8: down now, it's going to be August through September. You're

212
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,799
Speaker 8: running in general, and you wake up and you're like, okay,

213
00:10:34,799 --> 00:10:37,080
Speaker 8: well now I got to get those people back. And

214
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,679
Speaker 8: the goal of the opposing campaign is to point out

215
00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:45,320
Speaker 8: that you are an extremist and a weirdo, and often

216
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,639
Speaker 8: that's unfair. But in this case, I think both of

217
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,200
Speaker 8: these campaigns have a very good point. They've got a

218
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,080
Speaker 8: lot they can talk about, and I just, you know,

219
00:10:56,399 --> 00:10:58,919
Speaker 8: running for the presidency is not running for them to

220
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,720
Speaker 8: be the you know, the lead on a Fox News

221
00:11:02,759 --> 00:11:05,159
Speaker 8: show or the lead on the view well.

222
00:11:06,639 --> 00:11:07,279
Speaker 5: People to vote.

223
00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,480
Speaker 3: But I think this is I don't want to say

224
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,759
Speaker 3: bubble dog, but maybe the people who look at this

225
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,720
Speaker 3: a lot and think about it a lot think this way.

226
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,440
Speaker 3: I think the average Trump and the average Harris voter

227
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,639
Speaker 3: do not think that everybody is absolutely raw run thinks

228
00:11:19,639 --> 00:11:23,039
Speaker 3: that person is great. They're probably where most most Trump

229
00:11:23,159 --> 00:11:26,600
Speaker 3: voters know that half the country doesn't like them, and

230
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 3: most of the Harris voters know likewise. I think, you know,

231
00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:37,000
Speaker 3: the absolutely gung ho people guess may be subject to illusion,

232
00:11:37,039 --> 00:11:40,320
Speaker 3: but so it ever is I mean, well.

233
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,200
Speaker 8: I mean the good news for the good news for

234
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 8: the people for the Trump side, I mean the sunniest

235
00:11:45,879 --> 00:11:49,399
Speaker 8: perspective on the Trump side is that they actively they

236
00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:54,679
Speaker 8: realized that the abortion issue was a killer and a

237
00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:57,879
Speaker 8: killer for the Republicans, especially in those swing states, and

238
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,840
Speaker 8: so they in the platform they try, I can neuter it.

239
00:12:00,919 --> 00:12:03,279
Speaker 8: And so the Democrats are now trying to resurrect it

240
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,799
Speaker 8: and make it still an issue, and it kind of

241
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,440
Speaker 8: isn't is because at the top of the ticket, there's

242
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 8: some there's some there's some daylight between the two of

243
00:12:10,039 --> 00:12:12,399
Speaker 8: these guys. So that that is that I'm just talking

244
00:12:12,399 --> 00:12:15,000
Speaker 8: about pure politics, right. That was actually kind of smart

245
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,399
Speaker 8: on the Republican side to come up with it to

246
00:12:17,399 --> 00:12:20,519
Speaker 8: try to tame their weirdness a little bit. And then

247
00:12:20,519 --> 00:12:22,360
Speaker 8: on the Democrats is up to them to attain their

248
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,879
Speaker 8: weird It can be harder because their weirdness is basically

249
00:12:24,879 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 8: the city of San Francisco and which you could never

250
00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:30,039
Speaker 8: put or the state of California, which you can't point

251
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:31,240
Speaker 8: to really for any reason.

252
00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 4: You know.

253
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,679
Speaker 8: So there, but but I again, I think the problem

254
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,000
Speaker 8: with both these parties is the same, which is that

255
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,519
Speaker 8: they they love show business so much that they think

256
00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:45,879
Speaker 8: they're in show business. So they think that having a

257
00:12:45,919 --> 00:12:48,639
Speaker 8: really popular being a really popular Fox News talk show

258
00:12:48,639 --> 00:12:51,480
Speaker 8: host or being you know, getting clappier on the view

259
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,279
Speaker 8: is going to be as a sign of some kind

260
00:12:53,279 --> 00:12:57,679
Speaker 8: of political momentum, which it's not. You need seventy million

261
00:12:57,759 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 8: people to lose the presidency. The other guy's gonna get

262
00:13:01,879 --> 00:13:05,039
Speaker 8: seventy five or eighty, right, So that's a lot of people,

263
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,519
Speaker 8: and those people aren't watching cable news.

264
00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:10,120
Speaker 5: They are normal and they are sort of in the center.

265
00:13:10,759 --> 00:13:14,200
Speaker 1: Well, okay, but it's gotta hard if you do the

266
00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:17,639
Speaker 1: last two election cycles in twenty sixteen, the double haters,

267
00:13:17,639 --> 00:13:19,799
Speaker 1: the people who didn't like Hillary or Trump, they broke

268
00:13:19,879 --> 00:13:22,159
Speaker 1: for Trump by you know, five to three or even

269
00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:24,600
Speaker 1: two to one. In twenty twenty, just the reverse, the

270
00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:27,360
Speaker 1: double haters maybe didn't hate Biden as much as they

271
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,240
Speaker 1: should have, but went the other way. They retired to

272
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,200
Speaker 1: Trump and the chaos and all the rest, and Trump

273
00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:35,000
Speaker 1: still almost won. So now it's where those double haters

274
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:36,639
Speaker 1: are going to go. I think you're right, Robin. A

275
00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:38,879
Speaker 1: lot of those double haters are not cable news and

276
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,639
Speaker 1: view watchers. But I do think you are seeing not

277
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,759
Speaker 1: only is Cambella trying to move to the center, but

278
00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:46,840
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party is trying to help her out. Two

279
00:13:46,919 --> 00:13:49,240
Speaker 1: things in the last couple of days. One is Gavin

280
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,480
Speaker 1: Newsome yesterday.

281
00:13:50,919 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 6: Issuing on the border.

282
00:13:53,519 --> 00:13:54,399
Speaker 7: Camps stunning.

283
00:13:54,519 --> 00:13:57,320
Speaker 8: Okay, wait, can we just can you just explain that

284
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,080
Speaker 8: to me because I was reading it today and I thought, well.

285
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,759
Speaker 6: What, yeah, Well, I think it's two things.

286
00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:05,159
Speaker 1: One is, you know, new some to his credit, did

287
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,000
Speaker 1: call for the Supreme Court to reverse the old Boise

288
00:14:08,159 --> 00:14:11,240
Speaker 1: case that prevented governments from and so that was what

289
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 1: was done by a Supreme Court. Now Newsom kept silent

290
00:14:14,039 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 1: and by praising them, but he's now acting on the

291
00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:18,799
Speaker 1: new legal regime that they're allowed. I think that means

292
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,039
Speaker 1: that he's a trying to help Kamala Harris in the

293
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,919
Speaker 1: meantime by saying, see, we can fix California or b

294
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,080
Speaker 1: he thinks he's going to be the candidate in twenty

295
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,360
Speaker 1: twenty eight and he needs to help fix California or

296
00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:30,879
Speaker 1: he's doomed. But another little one that probably got by

297
00:14:30,919 --> 00:14:34,120
Speaker 1: most people is Shared Brown in Ohio, the incumbent liberal

298
00:14:34,159 --> 00:14:38,159
Speaker 1: Democrat is in great trouble there, tough race. He came

299
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,519
Speaker 1: out a couple of days ago saying he would vote

300
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 1: against the Biden Administration's climate plan because it would hurt

301
00:14:44,799 --> 00:14:47,879
Speaker 1: Ohio energy workers and manufacturing people. That's the sign of

302
00:14:47,919 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 1: a Democrat in trouble, trying to run away from the

303
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,879
Speaker 1: progressive agenda, which they always do in election years. But

304
00:14:52,919 --> 00:14:55,679
Speaker 1: I thought, ah, they're trying to neutralize some of their

305
00:14:55,759 --> 00:14:56,919
Speaker 1: progressive baggage.

306
00:14:58,559 --> 00:14:59,720
Speaker 7: Well, we'll get to that in a second.

307
00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:03,240
Speaker 3: By what we should do right now is be grateful

308
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,519
Speaker 3: that we have a fascinating person to talk to.

309
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 7: Rui Tu Sierra. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. I'm

310
00:15:09,759 --> 00:15:11,399
Speaker 7: you know, from North Dakota to what Do I Know?

311
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,519
Speaker 3: Roy is the Senior Fellow of the American Enterprise institutionary

312
00:15:14,559 --> 00:15:17,480
Speaker 3: focuses on the transformation of party coalitions and the future

313
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,000
Speaker 3: of American electoral politics. Co founder and politics editor the

314
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,200
Speaker 3: Substack newsletter The Liberal Patriot.

315
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 4: Welcome right sar having me interesting times?

316
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 3: Know that they are Chinese. Curse all that. Well, let's

317
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,679
Speaker 3: go back to two thousand and two, which seems like

318
00:15:34,879 --> 00:15:39,919
Speaker 3: another era, another civilization. You co authored The Emerging Democratic Majority. Now,

319
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,120
Speaker 3: last year you and John Judas teamed up again. You

320
00:15:42,159 --> 00:15:45,120
Speaker 3: published Where have all the Democrats Gone? The Soul of

321
00:15:45,159 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 3: the Party in the Age of the Extremes? So what

322
00:15:48,879 --> 00:15:52,879
Speaker 3: were you noticing in the early aughts and why did

323
00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 3: the demographic trends do what they did over the past decade.

324
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,639
Speaker 9: Well, in the early book, the two thousand and two book,

325
00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 9: The Emerging Democratic Majority, we're looking at the ways in

326
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 9: which the sort of underlying terrain of American politics was

327
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,279
Speaker 9: changing in ways that seemed to favor the Democrats in

328
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,879
Speaker 9: terms of demographic shifts toward non wide voters, the rising

329
00:16:16,759 --> 00:16:20,600
Speaker 9: importance of professionals and their realignment toward the Democrats. Shifts

330
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,360
Speaker 9: among women voters, shifts in the more dynamic metropolitan areas

331
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,559
Speaker 9: of the country, the fact that Republicans seem to be

332
00:16:27,639 --> 00:16:32,000
Speaker 9: at a step with sort of increasingly liberal social attitudes

333
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 9: and were doubling down in a sort of uncomplicated Reganism

334
00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 9: or almost libertarian approach to economics that really wasn't consistent

335
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 9: with where a lot of these voters were coming from.

336
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,519
Speaker 4: We thought that would give them a bit of an advantage.

337
00:16:45,799 --> 00:16:49,039
Speaker 9: Then we described what might be their emerging philosophy as

338
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,919
Speaker 9: progressive centrism, which could take advantage of these changes and

339
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,559
Speaker 9: make them an attractive package to the shifting availability of voters.

340
00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:02,799
Speaker 9: But we also had a caveat in the book which

341
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,839
Speaker 9: is widely ignored, about how you still needed to maintain

342
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,880
Speaker 9: a very significant share of white working class voters because

343
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,839
Speaker 9: they were still a huge sector of the electorate, particularly

344
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,680
Speaker 9: in some very important states, and even though their relative

345
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,759
Speaker 9: weight in the electorate was declining, you still needed to

346
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,400
Speaker 9: maintain a strong minority and not lose too much ground

347
00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 9: among these voters. So that was widely ignored and sort

348
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,519
Speaker 9: of the triumphalism of say, the Obama victory in two

349
00:17:31,519 --> 00:17:34,599
Speaker 9: thousand and eight, and essentially what our book is about

350
00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:37,279
Speaker 9: the new book is about whereof all the Democrats Gone,

351
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,200
Speaker 9: is tracing the ways in which Democrats have kind of

352
00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:45,559
Speaker 9: blown in a sense, their opportunity because they're losing so

353
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,799
Speaker 9: many working class voters, not only white working class voters,

354
00:17:48,839 --> 00:17:51,519
Speaker 9: but now non white working class voters, and they've just

355
00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:54,920
Speaker 9: become a party this much more dominated by the views

356
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,319
Speaker 9: and culture and priorities of relatively liberal, college educated voters,

357
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 9: and that makes some less attractive to working class voters

358
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,599
Speaker 9: who aren't as enthusiastic about how the country has evolved

359
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,759
Speaker 9: in their fate in life as some of these Democratic

360
00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:09,599
Speaker 9: supporters are.

361
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 4: So that's a.

362
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 9: Very broad brush where we're at today, where the Republicans

363
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 9: are increasingly a working class party and the Democrats increasingly less.

364
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,400
Speaker 5: So, hey, really, thanks for joining us.

365
00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:27,960
Speaker 8: In my career in TV, we used to say that

366
00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,319
Speaker 8: the only way to become a number four network is

367
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,160
Speaker 8: you first have to be a number one network.

368
00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:34,880
Speaker 5: That's how you go. You go from number one and

369
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:35,640
Speaker 5: number four. You don't go.

370
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 8: You don't slip down the ladder because you just suddenly

371
00:18:38,519 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 8: you wake up one day and you've lost. And so

372
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,279
Speaker 8: I did you mention Obama? Because I think it's fascinating.

373
00:18:43,279 --> 00:18:46,319
Speaker 8: A two thousand and eight smashing popular vote victory fifty

374
00:18:46,319 --> 00:18:51,799
Speaker 8: three plus percent, and then in twenty twelve he lost

375
00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:54,359
Speaker 8: a lot of votes. But you know, you start, you know,

376
00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:57,400
Speaker 8: it's like you start with twenty billion dollars and you

377
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,799
Speaker 8: lose five billion dollars, you still got fifteen you know,

378
00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:02,920
Speaker 8: you don't notice. It did seem like there was some

379
00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:07,160
Speaker 8: leakage there in twenty twelve that in twenty sixteen became fatal.

380
00:19:08,279 --> 00:19:11,160
Speaker 8: Still pretty tight, and we were just talking before you

381
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 8: got here, Steve and I were talking about like twenty

382
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,039
Speaker 8: six twenty sixteen, twenty twenty, still pretty tight.

383
00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:18,119
Speaker 5: Elections ten it was seventy eight thousand.

384
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,039
Speaker 4: Another type one this time. I wouldn't be surprised.

385
00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:26,559
Speaker 8: But you're also that also matches something else happening in

386
00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:30,880
Speaker 8: the country, which is an incredible volatility. I mean, I believe,

387
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,559
Speaker 8: fifty nine years old, most of my life there was

388
00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 8: one speaker of the House, tip On, you know, and

389
00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 8: there was one party that ran the House, and that

390
00:19:39,519 --> 00:19:43,880
Speaker 8: was the Democrats. And since then, yeah, that's ninety four, right,

391
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 8: it's been Yeah, Nancy, Nancy Pelosi has been speaking of

392
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 8: the House twice, like that's crazy, you know, goes back

393
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 8: and forth, and we talk about on election night and

394
00:19:54,079 --> 00:19:56,079
Speaker 8: even in the in the midterm elections, we talked about

395
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:57,640
Speaker 8: the control of the House and the Senate the way

396
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,119
Speaker 8: we never used to do that. We entering because of

397
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 8: these demographic ships. Is just a period or are we

398
00:20:05,039 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 8: in it or are we coming out of it? Or

399
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 8: is it just about to get a lot more interesting

400
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,839
Speaker 8: of just political volatility that we haven't seen in this

401
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,759
Speaker 8: country for a century and a half almost, That's what.

402
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,599
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, I think we're we're basically in that era

403
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,599
Speaker 9: and it's not clear when we're going to get out

404
00:20:19,599 --> 00:20:22,640
Speaker 9: of it. I'm writing doing a big paper now with

405
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,839
Speaker 9: my colleague you Ball even at at Ai on the

406
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,440
Speaker 9: evolution of party coalitions. We call it party politics without Winners,

407
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,400
Speaker 9: tracing the history of party coalitions in the United States

408
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,519
Speaker 9: and the general tendency of politics to be you know,

409
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,640
Speaker 9: sort of reflected in there being a dominant majority coalition

410
00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 9: and a coalition that's trying to become the dominant majority,

411
00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 9: but nevertheless you know, the dominant majority in print. It's

412
00:20:49,559 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 9: but as political pallprint what's going on, and it's sort

413
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,799
Speaker 9: of widely acknowledged to be to be such. But we're

414
00:20:56,839 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 9: out of that era now, and we have been for

415
00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 9: an era like that for quite some time. Going back

416
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,039
Speaker 9: to the cut points you were talking about, where basically

417
00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 9: we're sort of fighting on the fifty yard line of

418
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,079
Speaker 9: American politics. Things can swing back and forth, you know,

419
00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:14,799
Speaker 9: many times, just because nobody really does have a dominant majority.

420
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 9: And what's peculiar and interesting about our current eras you

421
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 9: could argue that, and we do argue this that not

422
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,039
Speaker 9: only does neither party seem like they're forming a dominant majority,

423
00:21:27,079 --> 00:21:29,759
Speaker 9: they don't necessarily even seem that interested in it. I mean,

424
00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:33,319
Speaker 9: they're so beholden to the extremes of their own parties.

425
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 9: The people who dominate those parties are not really thinking

426
00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:41,640
Speaker 9: very strategically and clearly about how to form a dominant majority.

427
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,279
Speaker 9: So the strategies that could lead to that are sort

428
00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:47,759
Speaker 9: of closed off intellectually in other ways. And I think that,

429
00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 9: you know, that's where we are now.

430
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,559
Speaker 8: It sometimes seems to me that they misunderstood what the

431
00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:56,759
Speaker 8: president office of the presidency is that you you're not

432
00:21:56,799 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 8: the prime minister. You win the election and you take

433
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 8: the office, and all.

434
00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:02,839
Speaker 5: The people do is can yout the microphone you only

435
00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 5: get the gabble, you get the microphone. Now you have

436
00:22:04,759 --> 00:22:08,759
Speaker 5: to You are by definition a wheeler dealer.

437
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 8: You know, a moderate Democrat, Rhino Republican. If you want

438
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,599
Speaker 8: to be successful, you need the party as the president

439
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 8: of the United States. We also also have heard for

440
00:22:19,559 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 8: years that demographics is destiny. That's something that was demographics

441
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 8: is destiny. But if you look at the you look

442
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 8: at the the map right now, if you're a Republican,

443
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 8: you're looking at a lot of second third for even

444
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 8: first generation Hispanics voting Republican. You're looking at this large

445
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,279
Speaker 8: South Asian population seems to be leaning conservative.

446
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 5: Our demographics destiny definitely not.

447
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,599
Speaker 4: And that was a widely.

448
00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 9: Mooted about this interpretation of what John and I rot

449
00:22:55,279 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 9: and some other people.

450
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 4: We never thought demographics was destiny.

451
00:22:58,799 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 9: We never thought that Democrats, because of these changes, had

452
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,599
Speaker 9: a sort of lock on the presidency and political domination

453
00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:10,279
Speaker 9: generally going forward. There was a question of the terrain

454
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,839
Speaker 9: changing in such a way that favors you, but you

455
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 9: still have.

456
00:23:13,279 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 4: To take advantage of it.

457
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,039
Speaker 9: And one way to think about this mathematically is, in

458
00:23:18,079 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 9: a sense, demographics is destiny only makes sense if you're

459
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,319
Speaker 9: thinking about it in all else equal.

460
00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:25,039
Speaker 4: Context.

461
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,559
Speaker 9: In other words, if the groups that favor you are

462
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,279
Speaker 9: increasing and the groups that don't favor you are decreasing,

463
00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 9: then all else equal, that's very good for you. However,

464
00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:39,599
Speaker 9: even if say the amount of non whites in the

465
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,279
Speaker 9: voting electorate is increasing, if their support level for you,

466
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 9: their margins go down, that can cancel out the effect

467
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 9: of having more people in that bucket.

468
00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 4: And that's what people.

469
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,039
Speaker 9: Repeatedly forget about this, you know, the sort of the

470
00:23:54,079 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 9: issue of demographics and how they affect politics. You really

471
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 9: have to take intoccount not only just of how many

472
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,519
Speaker 9: people are in a bucket, but how many how those

473
00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:04,799
Speaker 9: people in the bucket are voting, and whether it's changing

474
00:24:04,839 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 9: from what it was before, and if it is, that

475
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 9: can really change, you know what the calculus, so to speak,

476
00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 9: that as these changes manifest themselves in the electorate. And

477
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 9: I don't know how many times I've explained this to

478
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 9: various reporters or what have you, but.

479
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 4: It seems to I don't know, there's some problems with it.

480
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 4: They just like, there, isn't that great for the Democrats?

481
00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:32,079
Speaker 9: Well, okay, yes, all else equal, but look at what's

482
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 9: happening on the ground. Look at where these voters are

483
00:24:34,519 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 9: coming from. Look at how they view the Democratic Party.

484
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 9: Look at their margins.

485
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 5: I mean, look at I mean, isn't it part? I mean,

486
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 5: don't you?

487
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,599
Speaker 8: I mean I'm going to change. I have one question

488
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,519
Speaker 8: for you about Trump in a sense, because I feel

489
00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 8: like Trump represents a psychic break with the Republican past

490
00:24:53,759 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 8: in a lot of ways. Sure that probably if you

491
00:24:56,519 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 8: are running, we're just talking about Sure, pure branding. If

492
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,599
Speaker 8: you're running, a brand is a good thing, right, because

493
00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:03,279
Speaker 8: there are people who are going to vote for Republican

494
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 8: for the first time that wouldn't have voted for you know,

495
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 8: some Republican who looks and sounds like me. So that's

496
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 8: probably a good sign for the branding of the Republican

497
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 8: Party that it is changing and shifting. The downside for

498
00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 8: the Democrats seems to me that they're doubling down on

499
00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:24,839
Speaker 8: the stuff that got them into trouble and has got.

500
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,599
Speaker 5: Them into trouble for years, which is the kind of

501
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 5: twee academic stuff that Jim carvill I think rightly and

502
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:38,799
Speaker 5: correctly identifies as the killer Yeah, Alcolie lounge talk, right.

503
00:25:40,559 --> 00:25:42,839
Speaker 5: I guess my larger question is, if you're.

504
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 8: If you live in a culture that is obsessed with

505
00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:54,599
Speaker 8: race and obsessed with demographics. There's a lot of downside that,

506
00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 8: but one of them is if you're a political professional,

507
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 8: you tend to just think that that's your job is

508
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,079
Speaker 8: to identify who the people are live in this district,

509
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 8: and you already know how they're going to vote, instead

510
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 8: of marching around and knocking on doors and finding out

511
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,839
Speaker 8: what those people really believe. So, if you are a

512
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 8: politician running for the mayor here in New York City,

513
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 8: and Eric Adams is a terrible mayor, but he was

514
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 8: a fantastic campaigner, marched around it and he talked to

515
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 8: a bunch of older black ladies and he said, what

516
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 8: do you care about? And they said crime. He said,

517
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 8: what else do you care about? They said no, no, no,

518
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 8: it's crime.

519
00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:29,559
Speaker 4: Crime.

520
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 5: And he ran on that very successfully. He seems like

521
00:26:36,519 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 5: the only.

522
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 8: I think democrat on a national stage who has actually

523
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 8: listened to voters instead of putting it in a category.

524
00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:50,599
Speaker 5: Is that. I know, that's interesting.

525
00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 9: I think there are others who they're not quite as

526
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 9: much national figures. I mean, Charrelle Parker and Philadelphia ran

527
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 9: in a pretty similar way.

528
00:26:58,960 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 4: For some of the similar reason.

529
00:27:01,279 --> 00:27:03,279
Speaker 9: But I think it is true that in terms of

530
00:27:03,279 --> 00:27:07,559
Speaker 9: people have a national profile, we've seen very little, a

531
00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 9: lot of reluctance to say things that are really off

532
00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:15,799
Speaker 9: the reservation as far as today's Democratic Party and its

533
00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 9: activists and you know, the certain we call the shadow

534
00:27:18,519 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 9: Party in our book John Judas and I who you

535
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,279
Speaker 9: know that, the number of foundations, NGOs, activist groups, you know,

536
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 9: the various parts of the media who the moment you

537
00:27:28,319 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 9: deviate from, you know, the current consensus about how to

538
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 9: approach an issue like crime or immigration or race or gender,

539
00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 9: they're on you like a ton of bricks.

540
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,279
Speaker 4: So there's there's a reluctance to do that.

541
00:27:39,319 --> 00:27:41,759
Speaker 9: I mean, you can look at even people like Gretchen

542
00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 9: Whitmer or Josh Shapiro, who have you know, sorts quasi

543
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 9: national profiles, and you know, if you look carefully at

544
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,319
Speaker 9: what they say, they strike a moderate tone, in a

545
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 9: pragmatic tone at times, but really it's hard to see

546
00:27:56,039 --> 00:27:59,039
Speaker 9: the areas in which they've really in a big way

547
00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 9: departed from the Democratic consensus. And that's certainly true of

548
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 9: the leaders in Congress, your Schumer's and your Colosia Now

549
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,839
Speaker 9: hackem Jeffries and so on and so forth. I mean,

550
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,079
Speaker 9: the Democratic Party in a national level is dominated by

551
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 9: an approach on a whole vector of issues that is

552
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,599
Speaker 9: actually pretty far from the media and working class voter

553
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 9: and they're very reluctant to And why do they do that? Well,

554
00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 9: I think you know, there's pressures within the party. I mean,

555
00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:29,319
Speaker 9: part of it is too, I think, never underestimate. You know,

556
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,799
Speaker 9: where do people live and who do they talk to? Right,

557
00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:34,079
Speaker 9: they live in a bubble, you know, they don't talk

558
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,039
Speaker 9: to people who have different points of view than them

559
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 9: very often, And the extent they're aware of them, they

560
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 9: tend to write them off as you know, the great unwashed,

561
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 9: the deplorables, the reactionaries in the heartland. They're racists, they're sexists,

562
00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 9: they're transphobic whatever.

563
00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 4: I mean, this is like not a really.

564
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,599
Speaker 9: Productive way to understand what voters in America really think.

565
00:28:55,839 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 9: That on the one hand, you're talking to people who

566
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,799
Speaker 9: agree with you all the time, but on the other

567
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,359
Speaker 9: ignoring the other people because you know they're they're not

568
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 9: even worth talking to. They're not they're not they're not

569
00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:08,319
Speaker 9: some of the good people, they're the bad people. So

570
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,079
Speaker 9: I just think that that really handicaps the Democrats in

571
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,319
Speaker 9: terms of taking advantage of the ways in which while

572
00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,279
Speaker 9: Trump has been a path breaker in terms of making

573
00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 9: the Republicans more of a working class party, breaking apart

574
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 9: the old three legged stool that included sort of more

575
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 9: libertarian economics, you know, it's them. I mean, people forget

576
00:29:28,759 --> 00:29:31,319
Speaker 9: about how important it was what he said about Medicare

577
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 9: and social security in twenty sixteen, and of course what

578
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,319
Speaker 9: he said about trade and you know, manufacturing and offshore.

579
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,319
Speaker 4: I mean, these were things that are pretty different than the.

580
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:45,319
Speaker 5: It was to be crazy as a classical liberal.

581
00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 9: I'm like, no, yeah, yeah, said, well that's bad juju.

582
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 4: But it really worked with the owns.

583
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 5: He totally did it, totally did quiet their rob.

584
00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 9: But but then the other side of it is Trump

585
00:29:56,279 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 9: is Trump, and they're not able to to sand off

586
00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 9: the rough edges of some of the pro working class

587
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,599
Speaker 9: appeals and sort of present a more moderate but nevertheless

588
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:07,599
Speaker 9: pro working class.

589
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 4: Right. I mean it's hard to do.

590
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:11,759
Speaker 9: I mean, or in classes frantically trying to push them

591
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:14,119
Speaker 9: in that direction. But you know it's not under his

592
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 9: control basically to try. The Republicans need you know, less

593
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,519
Speaker 9: trumpy Trump.

594
00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:26,759
Speaker 1: Really it's a Steve Hayward out in California, and I

595
00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: want to draw back and take a longer term perspective

596
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,119
Speaker 1: on things and not just the current moment. I always

597
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,519
Speaker 1: enjoy listening to you in reading you, not because you

598
00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: necessarily say things I agree with, but because it seems

599
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,319
Speaker 1: to me you have the disposition of the older optimistic,

600
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,799
Speaker 1: happy warrior liberalism of John F. Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey.

601
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,039
Speaker 1: And that's why I want to bring up your book

602
00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: that you published in twenty seventeen, you know, at the

603
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: beginning of the Trump Darkness, your book The Optimistic Leftist Right.

604
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: And I have a couple of particular questions about that book,

605
00:30:58,279 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: and I think it's playing out. But in addition to

606
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: I want to add a different fort of field theory

607
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,759
Speaker 1: of what ails the Democrats that that doesn't disagree with

608
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,279
Speaker 1: faculty lounge dominance.

609
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:10,319
Speaker 6: Of the party.

610
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: I actually think the turn that hurt the Democratic Party

611
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,599
Speaker 1: happened in the seventies when it went from being the

612
00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: party of you know, you know, the doctrine under John F.

613
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: Kennedy was growth liberalism. That was the doctor of their

614
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: political economy. And again Humphy the same way in the seventies,

615
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: you started getting Jerry Brown, Jimmy Carter talking about the

616
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: limits to growth, and I think that accelerated what was

617
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:38,039
Speaker 1: already a you know, a latent strain of redistributionism in

618
00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: democratic politics. But I think that I think that has

619
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,039
Speaker 1: made the Democratic Party more sour than it used to be.

620
00:31:45,519 --> 00:31:47,559
Speaker 1: And now, is that too broad a generalization or do

621
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:50,039
Speaker 1: you think some of that maybe is onto something.

622
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,559
Speaker 4: No. I think that's that's actually pretty fair.

623
00:31:53,599 --> 00:31:55,519
Speaker 9: And first of all, Steve, I want to thank you

624
00:31:55,559 --> 00:32:00,079
Speaker 9: for being aware of that book and abeat it. I

625
00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 9: had a bombed basically it came out after you know,

626
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 9: Trump got elected, and so I mean, I'm optimistic, laughtist,

627
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,279
Speaker 9: but I do think you're capturing some of what the

628
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:13,519
Speaker 9: book was trying to talk about. And I think, you know,

629
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 9: in retrospect, I was way too optimistic in a sense

630
00:32:16,759 --> 00:32:19,599
Speaker 9: about the ability of the Democrats to pick up on

631
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 9: what you might call a pro growth, optimistic approach to

632
00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 9: political economy and toward reaching voters. I thought they would

633
00:32:29,839 --> 00:32:32,039
Speaker 9: maybe do a better job. I don't think they did.

634
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:34,559
Speaker 9: As we've seen, They've gone down various rabbit holes which

635
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:36,759
Speaker 9: don't have much to do with that. But I think

636
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 9: the fundamental point that I was making is the connection

637
00:32:41,599 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 9: between in a sense, growth and.

638
00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 4: Progressivism, growth and the good society.

639
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 9: If you want people to feel good about their fellow humans,

640
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,279
Speaker 9: if you want to have enough resources available to do

641
00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 9: the good things you want to do in terms of,

642
00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:56,759
Speaker 9: you know, sort of making the country a better place,

643
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 9: you goddamn well need you know, relatively fat as economic growth,

644
00:33:02,359 --> 00:33:04,279
Speaker 9: and you need to figure out a way to do that.

645
00:33:04,359 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 4: Now, you know, I might dissent a little.

646
00:33:05,839 --> 00:33:07,799
Speaker 9: Bit from my own prescriptions in the book about how

647
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 9: to do that, but I think the fundamental idea is

648
00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 9: very sound, right. And Democrats, I think, as you're pointing out,

649
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,519
Speaker 9: they're really not that interested in growth quad growth anymore.

650
00:33:17,559 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 4: They disparage it.

651
00:33:18,759 --> 00:33:21,799
Speaker 9: They think it's you know, it's like consumer society man,

652
00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 9: and it's ruining the earth man. I mean all that

653
00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 9: kind of stuff. But you know, this is like should

654
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,759
Speaker 9: be mother's milk. This is this is how you know,

655
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,559
Speaker 9: the sort of the boom after World War two has

656
00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 9: a very non trivial relationship to all the good things people.

657
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,119
Speaker 4: Like about that thirty year period.

658
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 9: It doesn't happen without that level of economic growth.

659
00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:42,519
Speaker 4: So so I do think that and you know, I

660
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:43,759
Speaker 4: look at Kamala.

661
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,079
Speaker 9: Harris, right, I mean back to today, I mean, is

662
00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:50,119
Speaker 9: she the pro growth candidate? I don't even know she

663
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,759
Speaker 9: ever at the word even you know, passes her lips, right,

664
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 9: I mean, it's just not her thing, and it's not

665
00:33:56,519 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 9: really for I think most leading Democrats what they think

666
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,319
Speaker 9: about a lot and certainly I mean they're I mean,

667
00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:04,799
Speaker 9: in a sense, what I was writing in twenty seventeen

668
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 9: was a precursor of what is now called abundance economics. Right,

669
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 9: supply side progressive is so it's basically coming out of

670
00:34:12,039 --> 00:34:14,159
Speaker 9: that same bag, you know, a little bit early. You

671
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:18,199
Speaker 9: never as a premature you know, like supply side progressive

672
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 9: or something, but definitely on the side that you know,

673
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,039
Speaker 9: we need growth and we need a lot more of it.

674
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it was Ghima yoursing.

675
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:29,199
Speaker 3: But you actually have as studies of d growth now

676
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: which people use people their fingers and figure out how

677
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: to wait and make our lives less abundant. How what

678
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,679
Speaker 3: I want to know is how much of the Democratic

679
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 3: Party at the at this point is completely infected by

680
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,199
Speaker 3: the idea of scarcity in abundance and how much of

681
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 3: them are just simply paying lip service to it because

682
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 3: they believe that that's the thing that they should be saying.

683
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:48,519
Speaker 4: Now.

684
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,639
Speaker 9: Well, I think the latter definitely is a big part

685
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 9: of it. There's a lot of preference falsification going on

686
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 9: there and sort of a b a sense to what

687
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,559
Speaker 9: people think they need to say aboutomic issues and about growth.

688
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 9: But I do think there's a ton of people out

689
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,119
Speaker 9: there who who believe in this stuff, and I think

690
00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:09,639
Speaker 9: a lot of it is driven by something I've written

691
00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:10,079
Speaker 9: a lot.

692
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 4: About climate catastrophism. I mean, it is very difficult to overestimate.

693
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 9: The influence of the whole climate issue on the changing

694
00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:23,559
Speaker 9: attitudes with the Democratic Party toward energy and economics. I

695
00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:27,599
Speaker 9: mean it's totally hegemonic, right. I mean, you don't get

696
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,079
Speaker 9: Joe Biden saying this is you know, this is an

697
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 9: existential risk. This is worse than nuclear war. We've got

698
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:36,639
Speaker 9: ten years to solve it. I mean these are absolutely

699
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:42,079
Speaker 9: bonkers points of view on energy and economics. But because

700
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 9: they dominate the Democratic Party and because they have such

701
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 9: a strong relationship to the issue of growth and how

702
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 9: do we get it, I think it does cast a

703
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:53,639
Speaker 9: p number of negativity am on the very idea of

704
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 9: growth because you know, God, I mean, you don't have

705
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 9: to be like know a lot of energy economics, their

706
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 9: economics area to at least have an intuitive sense. Our

707
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 9: growth is based on fossil fumists. They will not disappear

708
00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:08,559
Speaker 9: very fast, and in fact, if you try to zero

709
00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 9: them out fast, they'll actually be bad. So if you're

710
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,159
Speaker 9: you know, sort of halfway aware of the world around you,

711
00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:16,559
Speaker 9: I mean, your attitude as a Democrat who thinks climate

712
00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:19,079
Speaker 9: change is the most important issue might be well, so

713
00:36:19,199 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 9: be it. Then we'll have less growth. No, you know,

714
00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 9: that's that's fine, will save the planet. Yeah, and yeah,

715
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 9: as you're pointing out, you know, the growth, right, maybe

716
00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 9: that's really what we need, you know, like, which, of course,

717
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 9: is is so insane that you know it's it's amazing

718
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 9: anyone affiliated with the major political party would.

719
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 4: Think these things.

720
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 7: Deep is a booming is a booming thing?

721
00:36:40,159 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 4: Yes?

722
00:36:40,599 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: Well, well it's well right now, really the the what

723
00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:46,519
Speaker 1: I mean I'm following with great interest the abundance economics

724
00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: or supply side progressivism, but that caucus right now is

725
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: really you Matty Glacias ez Recline, our friends at the

726
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: Breakthrough Institute and small but mighty well that's right, I think,

727
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the parallel would be you may

728
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: not like this, parent, Well, it's a little bit like

729
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: the supply side economists on the conservative side of the seventies.

730
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 6: I said, hey, we should be for growth and tax

731
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 6: cut out of theory.

732
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: Okay, one of the things in your book is that

733
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: you say, I mean, the broad banner was we need

734
00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: to think about ways of reforming capitalism.

735
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,159
Speaker 6: And so here we are about seven eight years later

736
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 6: or nine years later.

737
00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 1: And you know, I've been joking that if rip fan

738
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,119
Speaker 1: Winkle were rewritten by Washington Irving today, the figure would

739
00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: wake up with Karl Marx's beard, because all of a

740
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: sudden you have a lot of conservatives, at least the

741
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,679
Speaker 1: trumping nationalists, attacking finance capitalism, attacking big corporations.

742
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,679
Speaker 6: I'm like, this is where I'm be a little bit

743
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 6: like Rob. I'm like, what has happened here?

744
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,679
Speaker 1: So anyway, either there's some observations about that, or maybe

745
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,519
Speaker 1: say a little bit about one or two things about

746
00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: about reforming capitalism.

747
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,679
Speaker 6: And then I have one more last question after that

748
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 6: for you.

749
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 9: Right, well, the really I mean the big question I

750
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,639
Speaker 9: mean on the you know, sort of going off from

751
00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:02,079
Speaker 9: the growth theme is how do we what should what

752
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 9: are the policies that we need to develop you know,

753
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:12,039
Speaker 9: high productivity growth capitalism, right, not just you know growth

754
00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 9: per se, because you actually just had a lot of

755
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,559
Speaker 9: people labor force, like we're doing a immigration and you

756
00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:18,639
Speaker 9: know that gets you some growth right there. But no,

757
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 9: we need you know, a dynamic period of rapid productivity

758
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 9: growth that will then you know, allow for you know,

759
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:29,039
Speaker 9: the rise and living standards of the great majority of

760
00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 9: the population.

761
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 4: So how do we do that? Now?

762
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 9: I think, you know, I would argue, and I did

763
00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 9: in the book, and I think, uh, you know, certainly

764
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 9: the people like Lauren Cass and so on, or are

765
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 9: close to those some of those national conservatives would say,

766
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,119
Speaker 9: we do need to reform capitalive and change the way

767
00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 9: it works.

768
00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 4: We do need an industrial.

769
00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 9: Policy, We do need different policies toward the working class,

770
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 9: and so on and so forth. If we're going to

771
00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 9: do this, we need different trade policies. So I think

772
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 9: it's all a very healthy conversation. I'm not sure that

773
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 9: anybody's really figured it out. I mean, you could argue,

774
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 9: I mean the Democrats have made a big deal, for example,

775
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 9: out of and it's true they have made a sort

776
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,079
Speaker 9: of break from what is loosely called neoliberalism. You know,

777
00:39:11,119 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 9: it's kind of a very vexed term if this avariety

778
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 9: really knows what it means. But they're definitely doing something different.

779
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,119
Speaker 9: I mean, they're definitely changing their economic philosophy and the

780
00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:23,599
Speaker 9: amount of money they spent, the so called investments they've made.

781
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 9: I mean, it does represent a kind of industrial policy

782
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 9: and a new new approach to American political economy. But that,

783
00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:34,599
Speaker 9: as I've said many times, just because you know it's

784
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 9: industrial policy doesn't mean it's the right kind of industrial policy.

785
00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 9: Industrial policy is a long history in the United States.

786
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,599
Speaker 9: Some have been successful, some have not. In some ways,

787
00:39:43,639 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 9: You've had an industrial policy practically ever since the founding,

788
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 9: but it's done in different ways, and it's had differential effectiveness.

789
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,679
Speaker 9: So just because Democrats are willing to break with, you know,

790
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 9: so called ioliberalism and do stuff that's different, doesn't mean

791
00:39:57,519 --> 00:39:58,559
Speaker 9: it's necessarily going to work.

792
00:39:58,559 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 4: I mean, look at the whole.

793
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 9: A vector of things that supply side progressivism is concerned

794
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 9: about it have essentially been untouched. We still have the

795
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,519
Speaker 9: same regulatory environment that we've had. We still have you know,

796
00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 9: it's still too damn hard to build stuff in the

797
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 9: United States, and there's still all this crazy like climate

798
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 9: you know, change overlay among all that policy, which just

799
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,639
Speaker 9: doesn't make any sense. I mean, it's not that's not

800
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 9: how you produce high productivity, high growth capitalism. It's the

801
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 9: way you satisfy the various you know, lobbyists andos and

802
00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 9: now emerging economic interests that are very committed to this stuff.

803
00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 9: So so, but then on the Republican side, I mean, look,

804
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,079
Speaker 9: Orn guests can say whatever he wants, but what Trump

805
00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:41,159
Speaker 9: does and what his administration does are probably going to

806
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:42,199
Speaker 9: be very different things.

807
00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:44,559
Speaker 4: And I'm not even saying Orn has figured it out.

808
00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:47,159
Speaker 9: Are people like him, but I think there they make

809
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 9: interesting points in their serious thinkers, But I think the

810
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 9: problem is a vehicle that they're in a sense attached to,

811
00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 9: you know. I mean, I think it's a real leap

812
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 9: of faith that think. You know, if Trump gets in

813
00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 9: the next four years, we'll see a renaissance of you know, effective.

814
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 4: Policy thinking on economics, because I.

815
00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 9: Just think the party is too fragment and disorganized and

816
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 9: that's too many different strands of economic thinking in And

817
00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 9: then besides, it's going to be headed by Trump and

818
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:14,159
Speaker 9: you know.

819
00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 4: What that means.

820
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,599
Speaker 1: Well, one last broad question for you, Ruie. It's an

821
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:22,119
Speaker 1: old question I want to reask. You probably won't remember this,

822
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: but I think if I have this right, about fifteen

823
00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: years ago, when I was an AI and you came

824
00:41:27,519 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 1: over one day for a panel, right, and so that's

825
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: you know, that's when Obama's in office, riding high and

826
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: Donald Trump was not yet even a glimmer in Roger

827
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: Stone's eye. And I asked you the following question. I

828
00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:41,559
Speaker 1: want to see and I remember your answer. I want

829
00:41:41,559 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 1: to see if your answer is the same hour has changed.

830
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,559
Speaker 9: You're holding me to it if I ever said what

831
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 9: you you think I said.

832
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:52,599
Speaker 4: This is funny.

833
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: The question was what are conservatives right about an issue

834
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,679
Speaker 1: or domain that liberals may not pursue very clearly?

835
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,199
Speaker 6: And you gave me an interesting answer, and I want

836
00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:03,159
Speaker 6: to reverse it on you also.

837
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:05,559
Speaker 5: Do you remember well I.

838
00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:08,119
Speaker 4: Do not remember, but you bet you better tell me.

839
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 6: I'll tell you.

840
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 1: You said you said the family conservatives were right about

841
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: the importance of the family, And I think maybe you

842
00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: had in mind sort of you know, sixties and seventies

843
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:21,199
Speaker 1: leftists who not necessarily the feminists but people who thought

844
00:42:21,199 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: the family was like less important than something or other,

845
00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 1: and I thought, yeah, that.

846
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 4: Was all boloney. Yeah, well, the question I agree with myself.

847
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know if there's a is there a

848
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,199
Speaker 1: new issue you think conservatives are right about? Well, however,

849
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: you understand conservatives these days?

850
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, sure, Well, I mean I think there are a

851
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 9: couple of obvious things to add to that that I

852
00:42:42,559 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 9: probably wouldn't have said at the time because it was

853
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,079
Speaker 9: a different era. I mean, I think it's almost a

854
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 9: little hard to remember how quickly the Democrats.

855
00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 4: Have evolved from like old school.

856
00:42:56,039 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 9: Anti discrimination kind of liberalism to the kind of illiberalism

857
00:43:00,559 --> 00:43:04,199
Speaker 9: we have today and the highly ideological approach to issues

858
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,639
Speaker 9: like race and gender. And you know, I mean back then,

859
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,039
Speaker 9: I mean you could actually envision Democratic politicians talking about

860
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 9: law and order, talking about border security. But over that

861
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 9: period between when you ask that question and today, the

862
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,639
Speaker 9: Democrats have evolved in such a way as a lot

863
00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 9: of issues are off the table. The whole language in

864
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 9: which you have to talk about things has changed. I mean,

865
00:43:25,559 --> 00:43:28,519
Speaker 9: for one of a better word, wokeness of some variety.

866
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:32,639
Speaker 9: It's really taken over the Democratic Party. So conservatives criticize that.

867
00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:36,039
Speaker 4: All the time, and you know what, they're right, Well,

868
00:43:36,679 --> 00:43:37,599
Speaker 4: they're just right about this.

869
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 9: The second thing, I'll add a second thing here, which

870
00:43:41,519 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 9: I definitely over underestimated at the time and wasn't thinking

871
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 9: about a lot. Was I do think that some of

872
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 9: the criticisms of the excessive regulation of the economic system

873
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:55,159
Speaker 9: and the barriers that were to development in a lot

874
00:43:55,199 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 9: of places and to economic dynamism were correct out all

875
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 9: of it, because I think there was a certain let's

876
00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 9: just blow blow everything up kind of.

877
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 4: Attitude and regulation.

878
00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:10,679
Speaker 9: But the idea there was too much, particularly environmental domain,

879
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 9: I think, is what is a sound criticism.

880
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 4: And I agree with a lot of conservatives on that.

881
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:16,679
Speaker 6: Well, I know we have to let you go.

882
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,639
Speaker 1: But the follow up question is I often ask conservative

883
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: thought leaders what is the left right about or partially

884
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,519
Speaker 1: right about that we don't perceive. So I'll let you

885
00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: ask you what are conservatives not get that liberals believe

886
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,559
Speaker 1: that you think we conservatives have wrong or I'll just

887
00:44:32,599 --> 00:44:33,119
Speaker 1: stop there.

888
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 4: Right.

889
00:44:34,559 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 9: Well, it's a little Yeah, it's hard for me with

890
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 9: to do this, I think just because I'm too immersed

891
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,079
Speaker 9: in that world. But I do think that some conservatives

892
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,079
Speaker 9: don't really give liberals enough credit for you know, having

893
00:44:48,159 --> 00:44:52,159
Speaker 9: some serious ideas about uh, you know, sort of how

894
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 9: how economies work, the role of public investment, the role

895
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,199
Speaker 9: of trum, you know, the importance of the safety net.

896
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,199
Speaker 9: I mean, in a sense, I think they just think

897
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 9: all liberals want to do is spend money, right, It's

898
00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:10,039
Speaker 9: just their thing. They're just like they're crazy that way.

899
00:45:10,519 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 9: But there's actually a method to their madness. There's a

900
00:45:13,039 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 9: rationale for it, and that's not completely crazy, and it

901
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,679
Speaker 9: does have a lot of historical backing, and in a

902
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 9: way it's you know, it just one should assume good

903
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,119
Speaker 9: faith rather than bad fit. These people are just all

904
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:30,039
Speaker 9: grifters and hustlers. There are people who are trying to

905
00:45:30,119 --> 00:45:34,119
Speaker 9: seriously think about the way in which society can be better,

906
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 9: and you know, then you know, it sort of bleeds

907
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 9: eventually into not only what do I mean in a sense,

908
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 9: it's not just what conservatives may don't understand that well

909
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 9: enough about liberals, but this just gets to core political, economic,

910
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 9: philosophical differences between conservatives and liberals, which get on my

911
00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:54,519
Speaker 9: soapbox here a little bit. I think we'd be much

912
00:45:54,599 --> 00:45:58,639
Speaker 9: better off debating those fundamental questions, you know, and trying

913
00:45:58,679 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 9: to figure out you know, here's your view, here's my view.

914
00:46:01,039 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 4: We got a little bit.

915
00:46:01,679 --> 00:46:05,079
Speaker 9: Different economic philosophy rather than you know, that's your tribe,

916
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 9: this is my tribe. You know, you're a tool of state. No,

917
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,039
Speaker 9: you're a tool of Satan, you right, I mean, just disagreements, sir,

918
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:17,119
Speaker 9: and we did, like actually talk about them, because people

919
00:46:18,079 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 9: to talk.

920
00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:20,079
Speaker 5: Can I get a little philosophical though?

921
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:20,639
Speaker 9: Sure?

922
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 8: Absolutely I agree with that all that the policy debates

923
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 8: are great, I like that, But there has to be

924
00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:38,079
Speaker 8: a fundamental I guess agreement that that the future is

925
00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 8: going to be better than the past, that the American

926
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,679
Speaker 8: future is always something to look forward to.

927
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,039
Speaker 6: Really is subtitle to his book.

928
00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: I should have said that subtitle optimistic Leftists is why

929
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,119
Speaker 1: the twenty first century will be better than you think?

930
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and also but also think why today is better

931
00:46:58,119 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 5: than you think?

932
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 8: And if you can't look at the world around you

933
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,159
Speaker 8: now and realize, oh, actually, the best day to be

934
00:47:05,199 --> 00:47:07,119
Speaker 8: alive on the planet and the history of the planet

935
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 8: is today, and tomorrow will probably be incrementally better than

936
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:11,159
Speaker 8: yester than today.

937
00:47:13,119 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 5: We used to have that.

938
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 8: That was the bedrock of every presidential campaign every national

939
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 8: leadership fight, it was I've got a better future a

940
00:47:22,559 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 8: plan for you than this guy.

941
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 5: But no one said, boy, are we in big trouble?

942
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 8: Boy is this are we a Nobody ever said, boy

943
00:47:31,199 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 8: are we a nation of criminals who've stolen land and

944
00:47:36,639 --> 00:47:38,159
Speaker 8: terrible and almost all those things?

945
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 4: Right? Hey, check your privilege, dude, you know right right

946
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 4: where we're exactly.

947
00:47:42,559 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 8: But where where can we go to get that back?

948
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 8: I mean, I hear a lot of that on the

949
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,159
Speaker 8: Republican side, a lot of the sort of doom constantly.

950
00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 8: I mean here, of course, that's that's the mantra of

951
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,679
Speaker 8: the Democratic Party, is their national anthem, which is that

952
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 8: we suck, so to speak.

953
00:47:57,519 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 5: Where do you where do you go to get that back?

954
00:48:01,199 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 9: Well, that's a great question, you know, I think Steve

955
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,199
Speaker 9: will probably recall from my book, I was all over

956
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 9: that whole general idea that we've lost our optimism, and

957
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,079
Speaker 9: related to that that people vastly underestimated.

958
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 4: How much better things are today than they used to be.

959
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 9: People didn't have much real understanding of the actual changes

960
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 9: in living standards, that changes in you know, sort of

961
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,119
Speaker 9: discrimination whatever. I mean, like, actually, this is there's a

962
00:48:28,199 --> 00:48:31,199
Speaker 9: lot of things that have been improved, and you have this,

963
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,679
Speaker 9: like and I wrote about this in that book, you

964
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 9: have this bizarre situation where even though things are obviously better,

965
00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 9: I mean.

966
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 4: Obviously there's been rising inequality.

967
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 9: Okay, there's some problems here, but they've just they've taken

968
00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:49,119
Speaker 9: leave of their senses in terms of understanding how most

969
00:48:49,159 --> 00:48:52,199
Speaker 9: people live their lives in this great country of ours.

970
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,559
Speaker 9: And I used to be at the Economic Policy Institute,

971
00:48:54,599 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 9: which fervently documents the underside of the American economy. And

972
00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 9: I and I was okay with that in the sense

973
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,079
Speaker 9: that I think, you know, they were Their data was solid.

974
00:49:05,199 --> 00:49:07,639
Speaker 9: There is an argument there to be made, there were problems,

975
00:49:08,039 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 9: but the general, the general approach seemed to be denied

976
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 9: that anything ever got better at any time. And I

977
00:49:14,519 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 9: just thought that was whacking. I mean, most people, you know,

978
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 9: believe in the American dream. They want the American dream

979
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 9: to come true. They have optimism they will attain it,

980
00:49:23,599 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 9: and you're not speaking to that. People want to believe

981
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 9: in the future. And if you're telling them, you know,

982
00:49:29,679 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 9: not only is today terrible, the past was terrible, and

983
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 9: the future is likely.

984
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,599
Speaker 5: To be terriblen and the rising seas I mean this is.

985
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:39,599
Speaker 9: Not how you I mean back to the issue of

986
00:49:39,639 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 9: how you form a dominant coalition, right, You don't form

987
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 9: a dominant coalition off of you know, that kind of approach.

988
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,119
Speaker 9: You really you unite people around their quests. Were a

989
00:49:49,199 --> 00:49:52,280
Speaker 9: better tomorrow. This is not rocket science, you know, but.

990
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 4: That we have lost we have lost track of that.

991
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 9: And part of the mythology that underpins the incorrect approach

992
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 9: is what you're alluding to wrong, that nothing ever gets better,

993
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,119
Speaker 9: you know, it's all it all sucks all the time.

994
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,519
Speaker 9: And besides, we stole the land from the Indians and

995
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 9: there were slavery and stuff like that.

996
00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 7: So it's the classic Walt Disney approach.

997
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 3: There's a bright, new, beautiful tomorrow, and I agree with that,

998
00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 3: and I agree with Rob at the same time, though, Yeah,

999
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 3: I mean overall, yes, trends are up, things are great,

1000
00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 3: all these you know, the arrows are pointing in the

1001
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 3: right direction.

1002
00:50:23,159 --> 00:50:26,679
Speaker 7: It's great. But in the last four years, the light

1003
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 7: today twenty twenty four in my city is not better

1004
00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:32,559
Speaker 7: than it was in twenty nineteen.

1005
00:50:33,159 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1006
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 3: The combination of COVID and the social violent street upheavals

1007
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 3: that ripple through the whole country after the death of

1008
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 3: George Floyd have made this an empirically provable worse place

1009
00:50:47,079 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 3: than it was before.

1010
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,599
Speaker 7: It's not unlivable. It's a beautiful place and I love

1011
00:50:50,639 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 7: living here, but it's not what it was before.

1012
00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:59,119
Speaker 3: So telling people, actually, you know, things are better because life, expectancy, discrimination,

1013
00:50:59,199 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. These things are all getting better.

1014
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 3: That's true. That's a head thing. The hard thing and

1015
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:09,639
Speaker 3: so many people in America is that there are corrupting elements.

1016
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 3: There are things that have just fallen apart from disuse

1017
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:19,119
Speaker 3: or indifference, and that that optimism has to be measured with,

1018
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 3: you know, not to sit back, but roll up our

1019
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 3: sleeves and we have to figure.

1020
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,119
Speaker 4: Out that it's fair. I completely agree with that, and.

1021
00:51:26,599 --> 00:51:28,679
Speaker 3: I agree with you you're saying before about how having

1022
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,519
Speaker 3: policy discussions, but I don't think that right right now

1023
00:51:31,679 --> 00:51:34,119
Speaker 3: is having a policy discussion. Wants to have a discussion

1024
00:51:34,199 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 3: on the existence of the safety net. It is the

1025
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 3: nature of it and the knock on effects of it.

1026
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,079
Speaker 3: I mean, so we can have a discussion, for example,

1027
00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:45,119
Speaker 3: about what happened to the nuclear family in cities when

1028
00:51:45,199 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 3: the state stepped in and took the role of the

1029
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,039
Speaker 3: fathers to say that is not to delegitimize the idea

1030
00:51:50,079 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 3: of having a safety net a welfare system to help

1031
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:52,639
Speaker 3: the poor.

1032
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 7: But we can't have that argument because.

1033
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 3: That argument somehow turns into cultural hegemonism and a whole

1034
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 3: bunch of bad ideas that we're not supposed to say.

1035
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 3: In other words, what I mean is we need another well,

1036
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 3: we need another you lots of views, and we need

1037
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 3: another and we probably need another twelve hours. So we'd

1038
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 3: like you to commit to a series of marathon podcasts,

1039
00:52:14,039 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 3: right yeah.

1040
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,159
Speaker 9: All right, yeah, yeah, Okay, we'll figure it all out

1041
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 9: then we will.

1042
00:52:21,639 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 3: But thank you for coming today. And I know we've

1043
00:52:23,519 --> 00:52:25,159
Speaker 3: taken a lot of your time and we want to

1044
00:52:25,199 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 3: take more of it more of it in the future

1045
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 3: as well. So the book, which everybody should now go

1046
00:52:32,079 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 3: out and read because you have an appetite for it,

1047
00:52:35,559 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 3: is Where have all the Democrats Gone? The Soul of

1048
00:52:39,519 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 3: the Party in the Age of Extremes? Roy, thanks for

1049
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 3: being with us today, Hey.

1050
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,519
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. It was a really fun discussion.

1051
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, great fun. And I know I did my typical

1052
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,639
Speaker 3: thing there by making a speech in the form of

1053
00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:56,079
Speaker 3: a question and then get getting rid of the guests,

1054
00:52:56,679 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 3: so that I can have the I can have the

1055
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 3: illusion of the intellectual superiority and challenged just to hang

1056
00:53:03,519 --> 00:53:06,159
Speaker 3: in the air there family like a perfume. Before we go, though,

1057
00:53:06,159 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 3: we got a couple of things and one I'm going

1058
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 3: to hand off to Rob, which tells you that Ricochet

1059
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,119
Speaker 3: is not just a bunch of guys yammering on a podcast.

1060
00:53:15,639 --> 00:53:18,559
Speaker 5: It's human beings who what is that? Let's be honest,

1061
00:53:18,599 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 5: it is it is.

1062
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 4: It is that.

1063
00:53:20,599 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 3: But it's also human beings who get together and have

1064
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 3: fun and probably talk about anything except politics.

1065
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,519
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, look, I mean the great thing about

1066
00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:30,519
Speaker 8: Ricochet is that it exists as a kind of a

1067
00:53:30,599 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 8: thing you can listen to, which was this, and we

1068
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:33,039
Speaker 8: hope you enjoyed it.

1069
00:53:33,079 --> 00:53:35,119
Speaker 5: And it also exists as a thing on the line,

1070
00:53:35,599 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 5: on the on the internets, which we hope you join.

1071
00:53:38,039 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 5: But it also exists. These are nice people and they

1072
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,079
Speaker 5: want to get together. We have meetups.

1073
00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:45,199
Speaker 8: Is a German Fest meetup in Milwaukee last weekend of

1074
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,559
Speaker 8: this month, so actually it's this coming weekend, and then

1075
00:53:48,639 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 8: we have one schedule in Saint Louis in early October.

1076
00:53:52,119 --> 00:53:54,519
Speaker 5: That's gonna be amazing too. Saint Louis a great city.

1077
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,519
Speaker 8: The way to do this is to show up, and

1078
00:53:59,639 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 8: if you can't make it to one of those, join

1079
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,039
Speaker 8: Ricochet and put up a little note and say, hey,

1080
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 8: how about a meet up in my region at this date,

1081
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,079
Speaker 8: at this time, and people will show up because Ricochet

1082
00:54:09,159 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 8: members won't get together and the last couple of meet

1083
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:19,559
Speaker 8: us have gone to I think, and Perry may correct me,

1084
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,519
Speaker 8: or Charlie may correct me. I think we talked about

1085
00:54:22,559 --> 00:54:26,039
Speaker 8: politics for like an hour an hour and a half.

1086
00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:27,760
Speaker 5: We were in New Orleans, and there's a lot to

1087
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,599
Speaker 5: talk about New Orleans, a lot to do in New Orleans.

1088
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:32,639
Speaker 5: So it is a way to sort of like, you know,

1089
00:54:32,679 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 5: there's a big, wide world out there, and it's a

1090
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 5: lot about life that is not about politics, although you

1091
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:38,079
Speaker 5: know I would.

1092
00:54:39,039 --> 00:54:40,679
Speaker 8: There's another more fun that's sitting around with a bunch

1093
00:54:40,679 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 8: of people who are smart and funny talking about politics.

1094
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 5: So there's that too, but no, we're more about more

1095
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 5: than that. So if you've enjoyed this podcast, join Ricochet

1096
00:54:51,639 --> 00:54:55,159
Speaker 5: and join us irl as a kid, say, and you

1097
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 5: never know who.

1098
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 3: Will show up, because you never know who's out there

1099
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:02,199
Speaker 3: in the Ricochet podcast audience, I mean audience podcast. I said, podcast.

1100
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 3: That's maybe the best word I'm going to use for

1101
00:55:04,519 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 3: us going forward, podcastic podcast. Steve, you're a music guy,

1102
00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:10,559
Speaker 3: and I know Rob is too, but I don't think

1103
00:55:10,639 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 3: of Rob as a music guy, which is I don't

1104
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:13,559
Speaker 3: know what.

1105
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:14,559
Speaker 6: I don't know why.

1106
00:55:14,599 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 7: Perhaps because we've never discussed it, or he's a show

1107
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:17,519
Speaker 7: tunes guy.

1108
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 5: You've never heard me singing. That's the thing.

1109
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:21,519
Speaker 7: We'll go to keep it that way.

1110
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 10: So.

1111
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 3: But I have talked back and forth with Stephen about

1112
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 3: various elements of pop music, the more cerebral elements, mind you,

1113
00:55:30,119 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 3: the progressive groups, the Italian progressive groups. I mean, you

1114
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 3: can have an we could have an hour long podcast,

1115
00:55:35,559 --> 00:55:38,199
Speaker 3: Steven and I quote about progressive influences in the seventies

1116
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,599
Speaker 3: and such. But Steve, let me ask you this. When

1117
00:55:40,639 --> 00:55:43,280
Speaker 3: you look back to the music of your youth, when

1118
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 3: you look back to the groups that you followed, were

1119
00:55:45,519 --> 00:55:47,599
Speaker 3: you one of those guys who noticed what kind of

1120
00:55:47,679 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 3: instruments they were playing.

1121
00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:53,119
Speaker 1: Yes, in the case of a couple of semi obscure

1122
00:55:53,199 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: prog rock bands like Gentle Giant, they played like seventeen

1123
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,559
Speaker 1: different instruments, the five of them in the band. By

1124
00:55:58,599 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: the way, progressive rock is Jody Boondam put it was

1125
00:56:01,119 --> 00:56:04,119
Speaker 1: rock and roll that went to college, yes, which I like, right,

1126
00:56:04,519 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 1: so right, yeah, I didn't pay attention to that.

1127
00:56:06,559 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 5: I don't rock and roll that had pronouns, right.

1128
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,079
Speaker 3: I don't mean whether or not they had a fife

1129
00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:16,639
Speaker 3: and a sack butt. I mean whether what what kind

1130
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 3: Like that's a rickenbacker that he's flying. Yeah, that's what

1131
00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 3: I mean.

1132
00:56:21,519 --> 00:56:23,559
Speaker 5: Do you do you play an instrument, Steve?

1133
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 6: No, My wife does several, but I don't.

1134
00:56:26,599 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 7: James, you what do you play?

1135
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 5: You play something?

1136
00:56:28,519 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 3: Right, keyboards and guitar as a matter of fact, although

1137
00:56:31,679 --> 00:56:34,159
Speaker 3: nowadays it's mostly just pounding away on since and the

1138
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 3: rest of it. But I mentioned that because you know,

1139
00:56:37,199 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 3: in those days, it was incredibly important to know exactly

1140
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 3: what those guys were playing and what kind of sound

1141
00:56:41,039 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 3: they got out of it, and what I mean, like,

1142
00:56:43,559 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 3: there's my man, he's got a Gibson SG with a

1143
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,639
Speaker 3: double cutaway. That's got that's that's got a certain sound reason,

1144
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,199
Speaker 3: or he's got a strat and he's got a strat

1145
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:53,599
Speaker 3: with a twang bar. And then Elvis Costello shows up

1146
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:56,159
Speaker 3: with the telecasters like what's with that weird little neck

1147
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 3: thing there. I only mentioned this because there's a Ricochet

1148
00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 3: listener here in front of the podcast who sent me

1149
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,159
Speaker 3: a song that he wrote and performed and did the

1150
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,199
Speaker 3: video for too, And I'm looking at it and I'm saying,

1151
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,320
Speaker 3: I remember Beck when you played a Gibson, and now

1152
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:18,079
Speaker 3: you here you are with us with a Fender. Anyway,

1153
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:21,679
Speaker 3: the Guy's Blue Oyster Cult basically, I mean, I mean

1154
00:57:21,719 --> 00:57:23,519
Speaker 3: there are other members of it that, but you cannot

1155
00:57:23,599 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 3: have called without Buck Dharma. And when Buck Darma sends

1156
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,119
Speaker 3: you a text and says, hey got a new new

1157
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 3: one the would you like to hear it? Yes, I

1158
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 3: would like to hear it. And I told him, well,

1159
00:57:35,519 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 3: first of all, my next Diner episode is sort of

1160
00:57:38,559 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 3: all about music and how the people that you meet

1161
00:57:41,639 --> 00:57:44,119
Speaker 3: change what you listen to. And I advise everybody to

1162
00:57:44,159 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 3: listen to that because we're going to lead. You know,

1163
00:57:46,159 --> 00:57:49,079
Speaker 3: I realized I'm spoiled where that particular episode is going.

1164
00:57:49,199 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 3: But since we have more of a reach here, I

1165
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,559
Speaker 3: want everybody to know that Buck Dharma's got a new

1166
00:57:54,679 --> 00:57:57,599
Speaker 3: song out. It's called the End of Every Song, and

1167
00:57:57,679 --> 00:58:01,559
Speaker 3: it has this melancholic feeld with this of not just

1168
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 3: a song but the song being this civilizational project in

1169
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,559
Speaker 3: which we all have such an investment, not that it's over,

1170
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,639
Speaker 3: but that sometimes when you feel that there's something diminishing

1171
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 3: in the greater country around you, it's time to redouble

1172
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 3: your efforts to preserve and keep and reinflame those cities

1173
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 3: of civilization. City's unflame with a rock and roll. So yes,

1174
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,079
Speaker 3: we're going to go out with a song, and it's

1175
00:58:27,239 --> 00:58:30,119
Speaker 3: I advise everybody to go to YouTube and listen to

1176
00:58:30,239 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 3: it and admire the little video that he that he

1177
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:37,159
Speaker 3: put together for it, and thank him for being a

1178
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,039
Speaker 3: Ricochet listener, and thank all of you for being a

1179
00:58:40,119 --> 00:58:42,719
Speaker 3: Ricochet listener. And that doesn't mean that everybody has to

1180
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 3: send us a song and.

1181
00:58:44,039 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 5: We'll play it, but you know it, that's what it means.

1182
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,599
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, Rob it right, Rob is right. Send us

1183
00:58:49,639 --> 00:58:50,679
Speaker 7: the song. We will play it.

1184
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,079
Speaker 3: After all, after seven to one hundred and one podcast,

1185
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:55,639
Speaker 3: we're going to need something for the next seven hundred.

1186
00:58:55,679 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 3: So yeah, send us your songs, send us your reviews.

1187
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 3: If you will, go to the Apple podcast thing or

1188
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 3: the spot of where wherever you get your podcasts and

1189
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:04,599
Speaker 3: give us those five stars because it helps service that

1190
00:59:04,719 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 3: and of course as Rob, one of the founders, would

1191
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,079
Speaker 3: tell you go to Ricochet and join go to the

1192
00:59:10,159 --> 00:59:13,119
Speaker 3: member side and find out the conversation of the community

1193
00:59:13,119 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 3: you've been looking for all your years on the interweb.

1194
00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 3: I go there every day. I'll see you there, Stephens.

1195
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:21,639
Speaker 3: Oh yes, Rob, go before we go yep.

1196
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 5: Predictions because it's okay, we say this is Friday prediction

1197
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 5: one pm. Oh, who's what do we want? On going

1198
00:59:30,039 --> 00:59:32,239
Speaker 5: to choose for be her running mate?

1199
00:59:33,599 --> 00:59:34,199
Speaker 6: A white guy?

1200
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:35,719
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1201
00:59:37,159 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 6: Right, that's an easy part.

1202
00:59:40,639 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 5: Is the first smart political move she's made in a

1203
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 5: long time.

1204
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's talk that she wants our guy here, the

1205
00:59:46,639 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 3: governor of Minnesota, Yeah, which I find interesting because he's

1206
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 3: I guess he's seen outside the state and outside the party,

1207
00:59:54,559 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 3: is just the most you know, white bread, kind of cool, smart,

1208
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,239
Speaker 3: he's a teacher, he's got National Guard experience, to all

1209
01:00:00,239 --> 01:00:03,599
Speaker 3: the boxes. But I'm of the opinion that I think

1210
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:07,599
Speaker 3: probably Minnesota is going to go for her anyway, and

1211
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 3: so the enticement of the locals wouldn't be that great.

1212
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 3: So I don't know what he brings to the ticket necessarily.

1213
01:00:13,559 --> 01:00:15,199
Speaker 7: Hmm, we'll see. I don't know.

1214
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 3: I have I mentioned that to my wife the other day,

1215
01:00:17,519 --> 01:00:19,519
Speaker 3: and she thought that I was that I was just

1216
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:24,719
Speaker 3: huffing tester's glued from a plastic sack.

1217
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 7: It's like, what are you kidding me? I said, no,

1218
01:00:27,039 --> 01:00:28,199
Speaker 7: you're seriously being considered.

1219
01:00:28,239 --> 01:00:30,119
Speaker 3: And then I had to show with the stories, and

1220
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,519
Speaker 3: she once again realized that she should listen to me

1221
01:00:33,719 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 3: in our household.

1222
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 5: And my guess is.

1223
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,519
Speaker 1: It'll be Roy Cooper from North Carolina. People say Shapiro,

1224
01:00:38,679 --> 01:00:42,119
Speaker 1: but I've said this before. I don't think today's Democratic

1225
01:00:42,199 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: Party can tolerate a Jewish running mate.

1226
01:00:44,679 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 7: And isn't that a strange thing to say? Yes, well,

1227
01:00:47,639 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 7: it could be Shapiro, but unfortunately the party hasn't.

1228
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 11: Unfortunately, yeah, right, who again, the parties have switched a

1229
01:00:55,079 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 11: lot that was that was definitely a Republican theme in

1230
01:00:58,039 --> 01:01:02,159
Speaker 11: the well forever, well including now, except for later.

1231
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:03,679
Speaker 6: I don't know.

1232
01:01:03,719 --> 01:01:05,639
Speaker 5: I think Mark Kelly, I'm gonna say a bailon.

1233
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:07,039
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the other possibility.

1234
01:01:07,079 --> 01:01:10,079
Speaker 5: Astronaut, you know, veteran, you know.

1235
01:01:11,639 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 3: All right, So all right, so just to our producer,

1236
01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 3: we've we've done that. Now let's redo it and do

1237
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 3: all the other names, and then you can cut in

1238
01:01:18,519 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 3: the one.

1239
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 7: And she choosers. Yeah, here's me.

1240
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:27,239
Speaker 5: We'll just drop in the correct one.

1241
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, here's me, three two one. I know you're gonna

1242
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 3: think it's crazy, but I'm pulling for Tim Walltz. I

1243
01:01:32,079 --> 01:01:34,599
Speaker 3: think it's just gonna happen. Okay, so drop that in

1244
01:01:35,159 --> 01:01:35,719
Speaker 3: and then we'll do.

1245
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,559
Speaker 5: You have to say things like, here's what I'm hearing, James, Well, James,

1246
01:01:38,599 --> 01:01:39,159
Speaker 5: what I'm hearing.

1247
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 7: What I'm hearing.

1248
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:41,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I don't know what you're hearing, but here's

1249
01:01:41,559 --> 01:01:43,519
Speaker 5: what I'm hearing. As if we're hearing anything. That's what

1250
01:01:43,599 --> 01:01:45,719
Speaker 5: every reporter always sys. It drives me insane. Here's what

1251
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,639
Speaker 5: I'm hearing. You're not hearing anything. You're on Twitter like

1252
01:01:47,679 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 5: everybody else.

1253
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 7: But we're still live. Yeah we are still never mind,

1254
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:54,519
Speaker 7: never mind, never mind. We'll see all the comments, said

1255
01:01:54,599 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 7: Ricochet for a point, but bye. The fire is.

1256
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 10: Out and spent the warth barol. This is the end

1257
01:02:16,559 --> 01:02:27,239
Speaker 10: of every song man sings the golden wine drunk. The

1258
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,119
Speaker 10: dregs remain.

1259
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:38,119
Speaker 12: As bitter as worm wood and salt as pain.

1260
01:02:43,519 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 4: This cisy hell over res.

1261
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 13: This sisy.

1262
01:02:50,599 --> 01:02:56,679
Speaker 4: Resound, see yellow resol.

1263
01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:19,639
Speaker 10: And help and hope have gone away of love into

1264
01:03:19,719 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 10: the dream oblivion of most things goes to go along

1265
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 10: with us until the end. This was a loved woman,

1266
01:03:39,599 --> 01:03:42,039
Speaker 10: This perhaps a friend.

1267
01:03:47,880 --> 01:04:18,119
Speaker 13: Cyri City, sizy Sele.

1268
01:04:46,119 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 12: With pail and indifferent eyes, we sit and wait for

1269
01:04:55,440 --> 01:05:10,159
Speaker 12: the drop curtain and the closing gait. M. S. S.

1270
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:31,639
Speaker 6: Ricochet joined the conversation.