WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:06.639 Hey, folks, my name is Spencer Claven. I'm the author 2 00:00:06.679 --> 00:00:08.919 of a brand new book, How to Stave the West 3 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:12.599 Ancient Wisdom for five Modern Crisis, available now wherever you 4 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.400 get your books, and I'm really excited to be joining 5 00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:21.160 here on the Doctor Sky Experience Talk Radio seventy seven WABC. 6 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:39.759 And welcome back, ladies and gentlemen to the exciting programming 7 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:41.880 and shows that you tell us who likes so much 8 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:46.600 on America's incredible iconic radio station, the crown jewel of 9 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:51.240 radio talk radio, seventy seven WABC, the proud home of 10 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:54.960 the Doctor Sky Experience. As we talk about amazing subjects 11 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:58.079 as you know, folks from the realms of astronomy, space, aviation, 12 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:02.240 and weather and celebrity in the mix, and also very 13 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:06.239 proud to talk about American exceptionalism and our close association 14 00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:08.359 with the good folks at Regnery. Bring us to a 15 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:11.200 brand new author and a brand new book from this 16 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.079 great publishing house, and in just a few moments we'll 17 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:17.000 meet Spencer Claven. He is the author of How to 18 00:01:17.079 --> 00:01:21.920 Save the West, Ancient Wisdom for Five Modern Crises. About 19 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:24.599 set the stage before we introduce our guests about the 20 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:27.280 subject matter Western culture is in a state of crisis. 21 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:32.159 Objective truth is replaced by virtual reality, humanity by transhumanism, 22 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:37.079 meaning by meaninglessness, religion by wholehearted devotion to scientism, and 23 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:41.040 the Republican government by the liberal internationalist regime. But in 24 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:44.519 How to Save the West, Ancient Wisdom for Five Modern Crises, 25 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:50.000 Deliwire podcaster and Oxford educated classicists, Spencer Claven outlines a 26 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:53.840 compelling plan for how to overcome each of these crises. 27 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:56.680 Before then, let's get a little bit of a bio 28 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.799 on our special guest. Spencer Claven, a scholar, writer, and 29 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:02.400 a podcaster, has a lifelong devotion to the great works 30 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:05.359 of the Principles of the West. After studying greet and 31 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.240 Greek and Latin an undergraduate at Yale, he spent five 32 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:12.879 years at Oxford, turning his doctor in Ancient Greek literature. 33 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:15.960 Now an editor at the Clarmont Institute, has written for 34 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:20.439 many outlets including The Atlantic, Los Angeles Times, City Journal, Newsweek, 35 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:24.759 The Claremont Review of Books, The Federalist, and so much more. 36 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:28.759 He's proud to hail from one of America's great cities, Nashville, Tennessee, 37 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.919 and we welcome you to the Doctor Sky experience, Claban. 38 00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:34.439 Thank you, mister Clavin. Welcome. Thank you so much. 39 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:37.039 Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much 40 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:37.560 for having me. 41 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:40.039 Well, this is an interesting book, and i'd really like 42 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:43.400 you to set the stage. Obviously, many people out there, 43 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:46.240 no matter what their political persuasion is, they realize that 44 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:50.840 there's something wrong in the entire planetary system with humanity here. 45 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:52.719 And it's a shame to talk negative. We always like 46 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:55.719 to talk positive. But in your book you bring up 47 00:02:55.800 --> 00:03:00.520 five easily an identifiable essential crises. I like get to 48 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.319 start first off by telling us a little bit more 49 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:05.520 about yourself because the Claremont Institute, I think we've had 50 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:07.520 a few guests over the twenty years that we've been 51 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:11.400 doing this, but Claaramont Institute describe it in some detail 52 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:13.639 for our listeners here on the Doctor Scutt Experience. 53 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:19.039 Oh absolutely Well. The Institute, I'm proud and grateful to say, 54 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.520 is a think tank devoted to the recovery of the 55 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:25.479 American idea. And I know that's something that's near to 56 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:30.240 your heart as well. You know, these founding documents that 57 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.439 come down to us in this country, the Declaration of Independence, 58 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:38.599 the Constitution, but also the federalist federalist papers in defense 59 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:41.960 of our system of government, articulating at great length the 60 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:45.599 rationale for it as compared to other possible ways of 61 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:48.199 doing government, as compared to other countries that existed at 62 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:52.800 the time, and digging really deeply into the prior history 63 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:58.080 of Western philosophical and political thought. These are such precious 64 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:02.520 parts of our inherentans, and the Claremont Institute exists to 65 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:06.639 put them forward, to explain them to people, and increasingly 66 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:11.719 today to defend them against any number of really outlandish 67 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:16.920 charges based on false or misleading accusations against the men 68 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:20.199 who wrote these texts down against the founding fathers. This 69 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:23.399 is one area of many where you will hear again 70 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.800 and again that our roots are rotten, our past is bad. 71 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.759 The racism of this country is built into its DNA 72 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:33.199 as one way of unpopular way recently of putting it 73 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:38.160 in the sixteen nineteen projects. And besides being just relentlessly depressing, 74 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.920 this idea is also incredibly arrogant and false. You know 75 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:45.199 the question that I always come up against their ask 76 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:47.240 again and again when I meet with these sorts of 77 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:49.639 accusations that I do all the time, is you know 78 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.639 who was it who taught you that all men are 79 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:56.480 created equal? Who puts the footing underneath you to criticize 80 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:58.600 the Founders on these terms, And of course it was 81 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:01.959 the founders themselves, this great tradition that they were digging 82 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:05.480 into the wisdom of Athens in Jerusalem, which makes up 83 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:08.720 the civilization that I mean when I call the West 84 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.560 that wisdom is what I'm offering to people in this 85 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:13.959 book because of how precious it is, because it really 86 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:16.800 doesn't just fall out of the sky. It comes from somewhere, 87 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:18.439 and we ought to take ownership of it. 88 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:20.600 Well well said, I mean, this is a great time 89 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.639 to discuss these problems and also solutions, and again we 90 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:27.079 like to be positive here on the Doctor Sky Experience. Again, ladies, 91 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:30.639 enter are a very special guest, a scholar, a podcaster, 92 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:33.120 and so much more. His name is Spencer Claven. His 93 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:36.759 new book How to Save the West, Ancient Wisdom for 94 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.199 Five Modern Crises. He's with us here on the Doctor 95 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:43.759 Sky Experience on the iconic radio station, the Crown Jewel 96 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.720 of Radio as we call it, off Radio seventy seven 97 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:50.399 WABC out of New York, around the nation, around the world, 98 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:54.160 and probably even out to the universe. So let's describe 99 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.079 these crises. But before we do that, you're studying an 100 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.560 insight from Plato, Aristotle, the Bible, and the found the Fathers. 101 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:03.959 Is I think so compelling and so important as we 102 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.079 explore these crises, and you also offer some very viable 103 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:11.279 solutions to how people might get in check with these problems, 104 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:14.480 and hopefully I think this book should be on everybody's 105 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.600 book list. Don't you think I mean this is important? Well, 106 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:20.879 let's describe these crises. I mean, this is interesting. I 107 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:22.959 rather you go into them and said, you know, you're 108 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:26.160 the author. The first one is and describe the first 109 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.480 crisis in order that you have listed them in the book. 110 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:31.560 I will, And maybe I'll just say at first to 111 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.199 the outset what I mean even by the word crisis, 112 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.759 because this is where we throw around a lot in 113 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:40.439 our news. We have a crisis in the supply chain, 114 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.759 a crisis, COVID crisis, and a lot of these things 115 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.519 are real and serious problems. But when I use the 116 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:49.920 word crisis, I'm actually trying to get something a little 117 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:52.519 bit deeper for people to understand what's behind a lot 118 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:55.959 of this. Greek krino is a word that means I 119 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:59.600 decide or I judge, and so a true crisis is 120 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:03.319 points the time for choosing. And what I lay out 121 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:04.879 in the book is that you know, yes, we have 122 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.079 all of these modern problems that are kind of coming 123 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:09.759 up day by day, and it's hard to understand where 124 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:13.319 they came from. But actually underlying that, what we're really 125 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:17.639 grappling with is ancient questions, fundamental questions, and we're trying 126 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.600 to find a way forward according to those you know, 127 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:23.560 basic ideas. And so this is the first crisis, is 128 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:26.000 the crisis of reality. Is there such a thing as 129 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.120 true and false? Or is it all just my truth 130 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:31.600 and your truth? And I argue that the only way 131 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.160 to form a productive society is to argue that yes, 132 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:37.319 there is absolute truth, which leads us into this second question, 133 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:39.120 which is, you know, how can we know that truth 134 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:41.920 if we're living in this world of change and decay. 135 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.040 You know, we have these bodies that break down and die, 136 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.639 and preaching me it seems as if people want to 137 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:50.319 transcend them. The transgender movements, the transhumanist movement, which is 138 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.360 even more extreme, a notion that we should get out 139 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:55.959 of our bodies is actually very old, and I present 140 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:58.800 some ancient wisdom for kind of dealing with ourselves and 141 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.920 our humanity in a sane or away, understanding ourselves as 142 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:06.439 embodied souls rather than just you know, kind of define sparks, 143 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:10.399 dealing with these uncomfortable encumberances called the body. Then we 144 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.600 move on to these two crises, the crisis of meaning 145 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:14.600 and religion, which is really where we get to the 146 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:16.680 heart of the matter, because in all of this, I 147 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:18.800 think we're trying to find out is there anything that 148 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:22.160 you know gives life meaning and direction? And a lot 149 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:24.959 of our modern scientists, and I'm not talking about people 150 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:28.319 that do science, people who believe that science is the 151 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:31.079 full description of all the world, is all just matter, 152 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:35.360 there's nothing else. There's a pervasive narrative that that's the 153 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:38.039 only way to understand ourselves. But that's not enough. We 154 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:41.240 don't actually believe that. We don't live that way. And 155 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:43.679 so in the second part of the book, I'm talking 156 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.399 about what you know, what is beyond just the physical 157 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:48.960 fleshly here and now, And I'm arguing that the tradition, 158 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:52.080 which shows us that God is worthy of worship is 159 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:55.559 still the best tradition for thinking about these things. Then finally, 160 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:58.519 you know your listeners, and you and I both care 161 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:00.960 a lot about the American regime, and that's what this 162 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:04.039 last section is about what to do what America has 163 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:06.799 founded to be, and how we can have hope for 164 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:10.720 saving this great nation that we are all blessed to 165 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:11.240 be a part of. 166 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:13.679 Well well said, and I want to jump into one 167 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.600 of these, particularly the crisis of Reality. And I found 168 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:19.279 that most compelling because it kind of gives me a 169 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:21.399 little jerk in the knee here and it breakes my 170 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.480 It makes me wake up to think about a problem 171 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:27.159 called virtual reality. And in the book, without stealing your 172 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:30.039 thunder sirt, you go into great details about what I 173 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.559 consider to be in your interpretation and writing and my interpretation, 174 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:38.200 the dangers of the metaverse and describe this because I 175 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:40.320 think this can be a great thing. I mean, let's 176 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:43.759 say surgeons can use this technology to even explore ways 177 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:46.799 to help doing surgeries better. But you go into a 178 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:49.799 much more powerful explanation and a warning I would say, 179 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.000 if I'm correct, about the dangers of the metaverse. Describe 180 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:55.840 that in light of what Facebook has been trying to 181 00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:59.159 do and this whole metaverse? What say you on this 182 00:09:59.240 --> 00:09:59.960 an important topic? 183 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:03.399 Yeah, that's right. You know, there's so much that's good 184 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:06.320 that we could do with this technology. And whenever you 185 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:08.960 start talking about the dangers of digital tech or the 186 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:12.519 dangers presented by this era, it's easy to fall into 187 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:14.639 the trap of being accused of just trying to turn 188 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:18.159 back time right, trying to unmake the future. And this 189 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:20.080 stuff is coming and there's no way out of it. 190 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.440 But what I'm proposing in the book is there's it's 191 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.639 one thing for technology to be advancing, but it's another 192 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:29.639 thing for people to make a sales pitch based on 193 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:34.000 that technology. And it's very telling that when we started 194 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:37.759 to develop the ability to create virtual reality goggles or 195 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:40.840 these sorts of things, and there was immediately this big push, 196 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:44.120 this offer from a certain corner of our elite, to 197 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:46.519 turn this into the whole world, to just swallow up 198 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.240 human life into a kind of imaginary space. And what 199 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:54.000 I'm suggesting in the book is that proposition that idea 200 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:57.440 that's not inevitable, it's not baked into the technology. It's 201 00:10:57.440 --> 00:10:59.960 something that our elites belief, which is that there is 202 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:01.679 no such thing as true and false, and so it 203 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:04.159 would be better if they got to choose what exists 204 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:07.360 and what doesn't according to their imaginary world. And that's 205 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:10.360 a very very old proposition. I trace it back to 206 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:14.320 at least the beginning of Greek philosophy with Socrates and 207 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.240 his engagement with his own reality crisis, when it was 208 00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:19.679 very fashionable back in the day to say, you know, 209 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:21.600 there's no such thing as true and false, or it's 210 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.279 all just what you perceive and what I perceive. We 211 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.159 think this sort of stuff is new, but it's very 212 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:29.120 very old. And one thing that means is that we're 213 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:32.360 not alone, because in fact, people have wrestled with these issues. 214 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:36.840 Socrates themself wrestled with these issues, and he shows us 215 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:40.360 that there's really nothing to do but believe that there's 216 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:43.399 something outside of us that is true and false. That 217 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:46.799 this promise of liberation, this promise of uploading ourselves into 218 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:50.679 a virtual reality, it's an old promise and it always 219 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:53.120 fails because if there's no such thing as absolute truth 220 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.720 and absolute falsehood, well then it's all just power. It's 221 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:57.759 all just power politics. And that's why you start to 222 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:01.399 see people fighting to control the narrative, to censor people online. 223 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.360 It's because unless we believe in true or false, there's 224 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.600 just the will of this stronger as the ancients might 225 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:12.039 have said, and that's really not a recipe for success. 226 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:14.919 Clinging to this socratic notion of the truth, I think 227 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.639 is so crucial, especially if this virtual reality tech becomes 228 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:20.080 more and more advanced. 229 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:23.279 Sponser Claven's our guest today here on the Doctor Sky 230 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:27.080 Experience on Talk Radio seventy seven WAPC proud to call 231 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:29.519 him a friend here. He's a scholar, writer, and a podcaster. 232 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:32.399 And most important, it's a brand new regnary book that 233 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.120 we recommend, ladies and gentlemen, you go out there to 234 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:38.840 deep soul search on these very topics that we're talking 235 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:41.519 about today. The book is entitled How to Save the West, 236 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:46.759 Ancient Wisdom for Modern Crises. I wanted to see if 237 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:49.799 you could give us a better understanding of the term transhumanism. 238 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:52.759 I've heard many other people explain this to me, some 239 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.759 rushed and some so detailed that not to put us 240 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:59.080 to sleep, but your interpretation of transhumanism and what are 241 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:01.960 the dangers that you might see there as you apply 242 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.440 some of the knowledge that you have, the great knowledge 243 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:09.559 from the you know, are ancestors like Plato, Aristotle and 244 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:11.759 so many others talk about transhibanism. 245 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:15.159 Sure, yeah, I think it's something which this is another 246 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:16.799 good example of one of those things. It seems to 247 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:18.799 just come out of nowhere, right, came out of left field. 248 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:20.840 A lot of people I talk to you think, oh man, 249 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.720 you know, even just transgenderism. Right, this kind of sudden 250 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.639 uptick in young people feeling discomfort with their biological sex, 251 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:31.039 feeling like they want to do all sorts of really 252 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.720 horrible things to their bodies to change their bodies. You know, 253 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:38.200 it's easy to feel like this is kind of from 254 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.279 out of nowhere, But if you start to dig into 255 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:43.840 the philosophical roots of it, you find once again that 256 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:46.440 we're actually up against a very ancient problem, and that's 257 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:48.600 the problem of the body and the soul. You know, 258 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:50.840 they teach kids now in school they have you know, 259 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:53.080 a biological they have a body, but then they have 260 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.759 something called a gender identity, and this is like sort 261 00:13:55.759 --> 00:14:00.399 of a floating abstract entity that lives outside of their bodies, 262 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:02.080 and they need to kind of change their bodies to 263 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:06.080 conform to it. That idea is very, very old. It 264 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:09.480 goes back at least to the Neoplatonists, who are a 265 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:12.960 kind of branch of philosophy aster Plato, who basically said 266 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:14.720 that you know, the body is just a burden or 267 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:17.679 an accident, and where we really live is in this 268 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:21.519 pure space of the divine, all the good, the true. 269 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:23.600 What I show in the book is that this has 270 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:26.159 always failed. This is a bad idea, and it always 271 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:28.960 ends us up doing horrible things to ourselves. And the 272 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.360 attempts to get out of to crawl out of our bodies. 273 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:36.240 Now we're still doing that now, and we're doing it 274 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.799 in this kind of trans genderism, you know, craze. But 275 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:43.200 that transgenderism craze itself kind of points onwards to this 276 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.679 bigger idea, which is transhumanism, and that is the notion 277 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:50.799 that our technology can help us to get past our humanity, 278 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:53.679 that our humanity is kind of outdated, our bodies are 279 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.960 a burden, and we need to update ourselves using all 280 00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.519 this different kind of tech, or even just upload ourselves 281 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:02.000 into the cloud so we'll live in a pure space. 282 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:05.080 And since this is an old idea, it has an 283 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:07.919 old solution, and that is they know we're not actually 284 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:10.519 you know, ghosts in the machine. We're not just these 285 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:14.200 kind of floating abstractions. What we are is embodied souls. 286 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:17.600 This is this ancient Greek concept referred to as hylomorphism 287 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:22.960 meaning form in matter. And whereas you know transgenderism transhumanism 288 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:26.360 take us out of ourselves. Hylomorphism says no, you are. 289 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:29.799 Your body is not an accident, and your soul is 290 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:32.960 not an illusion. The two are wed together as one, 291 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.799 they are fused, and the body is the language in 292 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:38.919 which the soul is expressed. This is a much much 293 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.559 staner way for understanding ourselves. Even as the technology develops. 294 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.480 It will help us to be healthier and to regard 295 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:49.320 ourselves with more peace rather than this endless craze for 296 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:51.360 transgenderism and transhumanism. 297 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.720 As you've explained that we've explained briefly in your bio. 298 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.519 You spent five years at Oxford University and earned a 299 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.960 doctorate an ancient Greek literature. So you're the right person 300 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.000 to ask this, and I'd certainly like to do that 301 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.200 with the ancient thinkers out there. What would you think 302 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:09.840 is one of those ancient thinkers that really comes closest 303 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.320 in all ways possible. I mean, maybe this is too 304 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:14.559 too difficult the question to answer because there's so much 305 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:17.639 material out there, but who strikes you is probably one 306 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:20.960 of the best of all examples to study and learn 307 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.879 about what's going on in this world and describe that 308 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.759 person to us as one of the ancient scholars. 309 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.399 Absolutely. Well, you know, it's not quite antiquity, But I 310 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.919 think a lot about Thomas Aquinas, think Thomas Aquine medieval 311 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:40.000 Christian think these days especially, you know, as different challenges 312 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:43.679 present themselves, different thinkers become more urgent, more important, and 313 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:46.519 a Quinas to somebody that comes up for me again 314 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:50.639 and again. He's the author, most famously of the Summa Theologica, 315 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:54.960 which is this big dictionary encyclopedia, as he says, you know, 316 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.480 all matters in questions pertaining to the Christian faith. And 317 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:00.600 it's I think a lot of people get scared off 318 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:01.799 by that because they think you have to read it 319 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:03.399 from cover to cover. You really don't. 320 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:03.639 You know. 321 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.160 Aquinas is a great guy to go to for answers. 322 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.799 And one reason he's great is because he was up 323 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:11.279 against this question that the Church that had to face 324 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.440 for a while, which is, what does you know pagan wisdom? 325 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.880 What can Greek philosophy contribute to the traditions of Jerusalem? 326 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:22.480 And he does this wonderful job of marrying these two 327 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.680 pillars of our civilization, the kind of religious side of things, 328 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.799 if you like, you know, the scriptures and the literature 329 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:33.200 of Judaism and Christianity and bringing them together, meeting them 330 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.119 with people like Aristotle, which is where I got that whole, 331 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:39.519 you know, hylomorphism thing. This kind of really rich way 332 00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:43.960 of thinking about humanity and fusing those two things together, 333 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.359 I think is a beautiful thing that Aquinus does, and 334 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:50.000 it helps ground us, you know, as we feel so disoriented. 335 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.920 Aquinus kind of stands in this unique place in the 336 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:56.279 tradition between Athens and Jerusalem. Who can and he can 337 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.000 show us that we can take ownership of these traditions, 338 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.079 that they are not just kind of outdated. We come 339 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.599 from somewhere. These ideas don't fall out of the sky. 340 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:06.119 They have a history in a tradition, and that tradition 341 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:08.279 is ours. He passes it along to us, just as 342 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:10.839 so many other great thinkers do. So there's of course 343 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:12.440 a lot of people in the book that I refer to, 344 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.559 but Aquinas is a great one to think about these days. 345 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.599 Well said, Now, I know in college, I remember taking 346 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.279 classes and philosophy, and we studied very briefly, albeit not 347 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.240 like yourself as we described these ancient scholars, But I 348 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.279 remember as an astronomer, we studied Ptolemy in the book 349 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:33.000 called the Alma Jester the Alma Justine. But have many 350 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.279 of these, maybe I'm a little off subject here, have 351 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:37.359 many of these great works? I know there was a 352 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:40.559 big fire in Alexandria a long time ago when we 353 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.079 lost a lot of material. So are some of the 354 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:46.240 things that you're talking about relevant to these particular scholars 355 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.160 that we may have lost over time. And imagine if 356 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:51.880 we did lose it, just how more impacting they would 357 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:55.680 be from their already great treatises and books themselves. What 358 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:56.480 say you on that? 359 00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.359 Yeah, it's quite something to think about, isn't it. I 360 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:02.200 mean the fire at Alexandria, the Library of Alexandria's most 361 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:05.759 famous part of this. But there are all sorts of 362 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:10.240 terrible losses in history, manuscripts that didn't get passed forward, 363 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:14.119 works that were lost. I mean, you mentioned Polemy, and 364 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:16.680 you know the kind of role that leads on to 365 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:18.559 the kind of the role that some of the medieval 366 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.079 Arabic scholars had in preserving some of these texts. You know, 367 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.640 while the West was you know, struggling and suffering its 368 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.319 own kind of difficulties and you know, there are so 369 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.720 many things that look, at least from a specular perspective, 370 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:35.160 like accidents of history, so many tragedies, for instance, that 371 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.000 we'd love to have from ancient Greece, whereas we only 372 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.640 have a small handful about thirty plays that come down 373 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.200 from the classical period from three authors. And just think 374 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:47.240 of the wealth of things that we could have, you know. 375 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:49.359 But one thing that that tells me is kind of 376 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:53.640 a weirdly comforting thought, is that this grand tradition, even 377 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.720 as beautiful as it is, even as magnificent as these 378 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.039 texts are, and you know, they have so much to 379 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:03.599 guide us, they're always being rescued. We're always up against 380 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:06.839 the world. The world is always falling apart, and many 381 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.319 of these texts were rescued from the flames, you know, 382 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:11.759 and by people who aren't even sure if they were 383 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:13.680 going to live to see tomorrow. 384 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:13.920 You know. 385 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.039 In the book, I talk about Saint Jerome, who both 386 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:19.319 watches the fall of Rome but also translates the Bible 387 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:22.720 into Latin, you know, carrying that language forward as kind 388 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:26.319 of the cornerstone Christianity in the West. And it's very 389 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:28.759 partning and encouraging to me to think you know, even 390 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:32.039 though our problems may be very dire, we are part 391 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:36.000 of a long tradition of carrying that flame through difficult 392 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.319 and stormy circumstances. We're not alone in that either. 393 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.000 Well, this is interesting. In the few more moments we 394 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:43.680 have with you, we could go on for hours here 395 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:46.759 a fascinating subject. Again, our very special guest on the 396 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:51.039 Doctor Scry Experience today, Spencer Claven, a scholar, writer and podcaster. 397 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.680 And as you've heard, and we'll repeat many times during 398 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:56.519 the interview, a brand new regnary book entitled How to 399 00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:01.079 Save the West Ancient Wisdom were five modern crises, and 400 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.680 let's get back to those crises. As you describe these crises. 401 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.519