WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.960 Oh hey, it's last year's calendar. You don't know if 2 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:05.320 you should throw away Ali Ward And this is a 3 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:09.199 very special episode of ologies that I know so many 4 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:12.919 of you right now are losing your damn minds. Friends, 5 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:14.480 I'm right there with you. 6 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:15.800 Wow. 7 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:18.039 Over the last twenty years, this guest has written so 8 00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:22.559 many New York Times bestsellers. It's a labor to list 9 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:25.120 them all, but I will because they are glorious books. 10 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:28.719 So you may know these titles. Stiff, The Curious Lives 11 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:33.119 of Human Cadavers, Spook, Science Tackles the Afterlife, Bonk, The 12 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:37.039 Curious coupling of Science and sex, Packing for Mars, The 13 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:41.159 Curious Science of Life in the Void, Gulp Adventures on 14 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:45.439 the Elementary Canal, Grunt, The Curious Science of Humans at War, 15 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:49.640 and Fuzz When Nature Breaks the Law. This guest is 16 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:52.039 the Meryl Streep of science writing. 17 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:54.320 I looked it up. Meryl Streep has three oscars. 18 00:00:54.880 --> 00:01:00.600 This person seven New York Times bestsellers, Absolute Goat did eight, 19 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:04.079 Brain and a Notepad. This person has changed the way 20 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:07.400 the public interfaces with science now because of that. 21 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:09.439 In the first half, I just barraged. 22 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:11.840 Them with questions about science communication and how they write 23 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.680 books and their approach to storytelling in conveying science to 24 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:18.200 the public, what it's like behind the scenes. And then 25 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.599 in the second half, we really dive into your questions 26 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:24.159 on human technomorphology, which is the topic in their latest book, 27 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:28.799 Replaceable You Adventures and Human Anatomy, which comes out today 28 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:31.879 September sixteenth. I had to wait to put this up 29 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:32.640 until today. 30 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:33.560 Get the book. 31 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:34.400 Love it. 32 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:36.560 I read it in a day and a half. It's 33 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:40.079 like a bingeable book, this one. So this interview side 34 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:42.280 note had to be rescheduled a few times just because 35 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:46.879 of some tech glitches. And right after we did record, 36 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:50.159 I close my laptop and I start crying. But you 37 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.000 will find out why in a bit. But first, thank 38 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.239 you to patrons of the show who support us for 39 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:56.640 as little as a dollar a month and submit questions 40 00:01:56.680 --> 00:01:59.799 before we record. Thank you to everyone wearing things from ologies. 41 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.280 Thank you to all the caring souls who leave reviews 42 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:05.680 of the show because you know it helps and you 43 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:10.080 know I read them, including listener Recommended in Dreams, who 44 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:13.280 wrote a review saying seriously, twice now I have recommended 45 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.680 this podcast two people in a dream Recommended in Dreams. 46 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:18.280 I thank you in dreams. 47 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:21.280 Also, if you want some G rated family friendly versions 48 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:25.159 of ologies, you can subscribe to smologies which are classrooms, 49 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:28.280 safe edits. They're in their own separate feed s m 50 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.680 O l O g I e s. You can find 51 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:32.840 them at the link in the show notes or wherever 52 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:36.719 you get your podcasts. G rated good for everyone. Also, 53 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.000 thank you to sponsors of the show who make it 54 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.159 possible for us to donate to causes of the ologists 55 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.479 choosing each week get value. 56 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:47.639 You can't argue with Optesco with their amazing club card prices. 57 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.280 Serve up something special with our finest Meil deal for 58 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:52.960 two starring one main, two sides and dessert for only 59 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.039 sixteen euro like succument Board, be approved Virus Shine the 60 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.840 Striploin Stakes with peppercorn butter or delicious Virus Chicken Parmegama 61 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:02.479 served with creamy potato Great time unto a mix of 62 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:06.879 rainbow root vegetables and enjoyed Goosillionaire or Solder caramel cheesecake. 63 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:10.919 Can't argue with that shop instore or online Tesco. Every 64 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:13.080 little helps I've been able to most doores prices very 65 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:13.759 inn express. 66 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:17.319 Okay, let's get into how and why we modify the 67 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:20.759 human body, past, present, and future as we talk to 68 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:23.199 this author and journalist who has gone to actual ends 69 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:26.960 of the earth to interview the finest experts with the 70 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:30.120 best stories. So prep your flesh for figuring out how 71 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:33.400 to write a book, getting to fourth base in a lab, 72 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:36.879 organs from critters, how to find the best nuggets of 73 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:42.080 a conversation, bugs on drugs, bendable genitals, elective amputation, gene 74 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:46.960 tweaked pigs, vacuum chambers, beating hearts, leftover tendons, and so 75 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:51.439 much more with replaceable you, author, science communicator, lauded journalist, 76 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.560 my personal career hero. I like them so much it's embarrassing. 77 00:03:55.879 --> 00:04:00.759 The icon and writer on human technomorphology, mar Roach. 78 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:22.040 My name is Mary Roach, and my pronouns are she and. 79 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:26.279 Her and Mary Roach, an icon a legend. I've read 80 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.560 all of your books, including I got an advanced copy 81 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:31.399 of book coming out. Your book will come out the 82 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:34.759 day this is released. And when it comes to your books, 83 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:38.360 does the name come first? Does the subject come first? 84 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:41.160 Do you have leftover pieces from another book that you 85 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:44.519 realize I'll fit into a new book? How did you 86 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:45.360 decide on the topic? 87 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:49.639 You know? I wish I had a really cool inspiration 88 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:54.040 story because I'm usually not inspired, and it's not like 89 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:57.720 there's a moment of inspiration. It's rather like a period 90 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:02.240 of random flailing. I was just like, what about this? 91 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:03.879 I don't know, I think this might work. Nope, that's 92 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:05.519 not going to work. And then I move on to 93 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:08.079 something else. But what normally happens is I stumble onto 94 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:12.040 something that I think is kind of cool and interesting, 95 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:14.480 it would be a good scene in a place to go, 96 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:17.879 and then I kind of build. I think, well, what 97 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:21.399 would be the book that goes around this nugget, you know? 98 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.519 Or sometimes there's two nuggets, like for packing for Mars, 99 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:27.920 I had years and years ago for Vogue magazine, of 100 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:31.160 all places, because look at me. I assurd that I 101 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:33.680 wrote for Vogue magazine. I was a contributing editor at 102 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:36.439 Vogue Magazine. It was hilarious. I would hide when I 103 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:38.800 went to meet my editor, like I was like, don't 104 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.160 let me run into Anna Wintour. She'll ban me. 105 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:45.399 And you have no style or a sense of fashion. 106 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.160 So anyway, I was doing this story about osteoporosis, you know, 107 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:51.839 I was like, this isn't all that interesting. What should 108 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:53.680 I do to kind of punch it up, and I thought, Okay, 109 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.720 I'll talk to an astronaut, because you know, you lose 110 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.319 bone in space, and it's something that astronauts have to 111 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:02.399 deal with and if they discovered how to deal with 112 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:05.639 it in space, we old ladies like me who are 113 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:08.439 losing their bone could have a cure. And so okay. 114 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.680 So I'm on the phone with a guy. He's like, 115 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:15.040 it's an interesting conversation, but not really that interesting, and 116 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.480 we get to talking about other things, and inevitably, with space, 117 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:22.160 it comes around to what's the toilet scenario. He tells 118 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.480 me that there's this at NASA, kind of like a 119 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:29.480 training potty. It is a toilet with a camera down 120 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:33.600 in the bowl facing up nice with a closed circuit 121 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.800 TV next to the toilet showing you what that video 122 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:41.560 camera is seeing. So it's like this view of something 123 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:44.480 you know very very intimately, but you've never really seen 124 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:45.399 it from that angle. 125 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:50.800 Probably hopefully, Yeah, although if dream come true for certain people, 126 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:52.560 I'm sure yeah. 127 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:53.199 Yeah. 128 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:55.079 Did she write about this for Vogue? 129 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:58.000 No? Could she get it out of her mind? Of 130 00:06:58.040 --> 00:06:58.439 course not. 131 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:00.560 So it was kind of a lot in the back 132 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.120 of my head, and I'm like, someday I will write 133 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:06.959 about that video toilet. I will sit on that video toilet. 134 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.240 Fast forward many years now, I'm writing books. They're looking 135 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:13.920 around for an idea, and I'd come across the Bedrest Facility, 136 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:16.480 which is a very cool place where people are paid 137 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:19.319 to lie in bed for months. It's like an analogue 138 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:22.560 for losing muscle and bone in space. You know, you 139 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:25.879 kind of create those situations and they can find countermeasures 140 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:28.319 and do tests anyway, weird place. So now I have 141 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:33.199 two chunks, two chunks nuggets, and I'm like, what the 142 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:38.040 book that goes around this? So that's how packing for 143 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:41.879 Marspea because I sort of realized that what happens here 144 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.160 on Earth in terms of NASA is kind of more 145 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:49.040 interesting than what happens up in space. But that's usually 146 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:52.639 how it happens. You know, it's rare that I have 147 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:56.720 a desire to write a book about a certain topic. 148 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:00.879 There used to be these ads for cooler faucets. Faucet company. 149 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:04.800 There's this ad where this couple comes into an architects 150 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.920 office with a color faucet and they put it on 151 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:12.680 the architects desk, So what can I do for you? 152 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:18.920 And they go design a house around this. I'm like, 153 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:24.800 what assholes? But anyway, like the toilet was my coler. 154 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:27.279 Faucet, it was the seed. 155 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:29.959 Build a book around this. 156 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:35.279 What was the seed? The germ of the replaceable U? 157 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:36.759 The colar fawcet? Yes? 158 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:39.360 What was your color faucet for replaceable you? 159 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:42.840 Yeah, the color faucet for this one. I'd been thinking 160 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:46.080 about fat as a topic. I didn't go in that direction, 161 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.519 but I was speaking to this woman who actually works 162 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.120 in a stem cell lab. Leahbellas is her name. She was. 163 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:54.120 We were just sort of talking and bouncing things around, 164 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.159 and in the course of this conversation she told me 165 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.440 about a the surgeon who had taken a man's middle 166 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:08.759 finger and constructed a penis using the finger. And I 167 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:13.960 of course imagined just the finger being like taken as is, 168 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:16.799 you know, and put that like you know, and also 169 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:20.720 which is quite anatomically improbable, thinking that it had been 170 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.720 hooked up and that the man could now kind of 171 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:31.279 like beca and come over here, baby. And of course 172 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:35.720 that's not true. It was used inside skin is a 173 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.759 rigidity element. But I'm like, I will meet this man. 174 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:42.559 I will go there wherever this is turned out to 175 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:43.840 be in Tibelisi, Georgia. 176 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:46.360 This was in the nation of Georgia, and your Turkey 177 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.279 and Armenia. And in Replaceable You, Mary notes that instead 178 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:53.720 of commercial penilel implants supporting the rigidity, it's the patient's 179 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:57.200 middle finger, and that the digit is skinned but otherwise 180 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:01.200 implanted whole, and Mary continues to describing a sort of 181 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.240 skin log lying in a small surgical basin, and she 182 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.840 wistfully notes, quote, I'm reminded of a Vienna sausage, a 183 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:11.919 canned meat product I enjoyed as a child, the same 184 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:16.320 approximant color and circumference, the same blunt ends. And then 185 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:19.840 it undergoes a second and more cosmetic follow up surgery, 186 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:24.159 and then a life of penal satisfaction and probably a 187 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:28.320 lot of boner jokes. But no pinicure, no nail on it, though, 188 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:29.759 right they take the nail off. 189 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.639 No, Well, it seemed to me that the whole fingering 190 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:34.120 is that a fulangy. 191 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:39.399 Means metatarsal something yet Okay, so the palm bones are 192 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.440 actually called the metacarpals, but in this case the phalanges, 193 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:47.360 and then after the wrist bones area of this gentleman's 194 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.519 body got a promotion, and they got a job transferred 195 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:52.399 to a down South. 196 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:55.120 Anyway, the whole thing, not just the bone, you know, 197 00:10:55.159 --> 00:10:58.440 with skin from often here under side of the forearm 198 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:02.159 gets used because it's hair, although this guy's there was 199 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:05.559 some hair there. But I'm getting ahead of myself. 200 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:07.759 We've all been there now, yeah exactly. 201 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:11.399 So Yeah, it's basically like finger wrap it up, kind 202 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:14.600 of a pig and a blanket scenario. But you know, 203 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:19.159 I saw the final product and it was very realistic. Yeah, 204 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:22.720 And it could bend up like you could cook your 205 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.559 you could bend it up. It was like a gumby 206 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.480 thing that's handy, so he can put on his pants, 207 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:30.120 he can sort of bend it, fold it out of 208 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:34.840 the wood. It was more of a convenience situation, like. 209 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:37.440 Those razor shooters pop in the back back you're out. 210 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:38.919 Of there, exactly, or a Murphy bed. 211 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.360 Yeah, out of sight, out of mind. Yeah. 212 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:44.240 One thing I love about all of your books is 213 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.720 how much we get to like tag along with you 214 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:49.759 and the taxi drivers you talked to, and the receptionists 215 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:52.279 that you talk to, and what the lobby looks like. 216 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:58.080 And I'm always wondering how you can capture these moments 217 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:02.200 with all of these different scientists in labs, and you know, 218 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:07.120 smearing pesto on facaca. How are you recalling everything? Do 219 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.480 you have like a secret those ray band spy cameras, 220 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:11.720 Do you have a videographer? 221 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:13.279 How are you recalling all of it? 222 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.759 Well? I am always doing a what is it? The 223 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.679 Brits say belts and braces, right, so yeah, like a 224 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.039 belt and suspenders. I have a notebook and I'm writing 225 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.000 down the things that I see and what's going on. 226 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:30.399 But if it's a situation where interesting things are coming 227 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:33.519 my way verbally quickly, I turn on a tape recorder, 228 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.039 and if things kind of wander off in a direction 229 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:42.080 that isn't interesting, I sort of subtly turn it off 230 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:45.080 because I don't want to transcribe that shit. I still 231 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.879 transcribe stuff. It's a weird thing. I still want to hear. 232 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.159 I mean, I know you can do it with transcription stuff, 233 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.039 but it's the documents too long. I edit as I go, 234 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:56.480 and anyway, so i'm recording, I'm turning it off and 235 00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:00.879 on pausing, on pausing. I tend to forget to take photographs, 236 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.320 but I've gotten better about that, just so I can 237 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:05.720 remember what somebody looks like, but I'm not you know, 238 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:07.440 shooting the whole room or anything. 239 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.519 You don't have a tripod with like an influencer style, 240 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:12.039 just video. 241 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:14.440 I do you know? I don't if people have said, 242 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:16.519 you know, well what why don't you do? You know? 243 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:19.200 You could be shooting video as you go and there 244 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:22.759 could be a TV show and I'm like, that's no. 245 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.559 I don't want to be the person going let me 246 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:28.240 stop you there. The lighting isn't very good here, and 247 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.200 can we start over? You know? I can't because the 248 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:34.399 moment's gone. Yeah, Like, what if that happened right when 249 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:39.200 the woman in the office in Tiblisi had been showing 250 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.000 me the slide of the penis sort of bent up? 251 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:45.960 It was actually holding a ceramic water pitcher, Like what 252 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:47.480 if I'd had to go, oh, can we take that? 253 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:49.159 Can we do that again? I don't know. It's just 254 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:50.840 because it was this moment I was. 255 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:56.600 Like, oh wow, look at that so irreplaceable you. Mary 256 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:01.840 offers more details, writing that this hand painted picture is 257 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:05.000 white with a red and green floral pattern, and she 258 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:09.039 envisions the man maybe pouring iced tea for a lover, 259 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.519 this jug dangling from his member, and she continues, it's 260 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:17.360 not full, says the surgeon. He means the picture this 261 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:22.120 is just to show the resistance. It's very strong, effectively penetrative. 262 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.039 She concludes, She's just this is just a day on 263 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.799 the job for Mary in the Caucus Mountains. You always 264 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:32.440 tend to travel for your books, and this one took 265 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:37.720 you to Mongolia to talk to ie surgeons. How much 266 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.200 time are they giving you before they'll let you see 267 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:46.279 an you know, orthopedic surgeon hammering into someone's knee or 268 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:49.840 jamming a cataract out of an eye, like? Does that 269 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:51.679 usually happen on the first day or do you have 270 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:53.559 to coax? Do you have to charm your way into that? 271 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:57.679 No? I make sure ahead of time to let people 272 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.080 know that I need to have something to see, you know. 273 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.039 I just I'm very straightforward. It's almost like I'm scouting 274 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.679 locations for a documentary. I need place, I need people, 275 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:11.159 I need conversation. I need things happening. You know, a 276 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.879 power point is of no use to me. 277 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:16.559 Get it out of here. 278 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:21.679 I have a zero tolerance policy for power points. I 279 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.159 need stuff going on. What do you got, what's coming up? 280 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.120 What can I see? You know? Sometimes that's been difficult, 281 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:30.679 you know, for my third book, Bonk, which had to 282 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:36.360 do with the study of sexual physiology. People researching sexual physiology, well, 283 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:39.399 that means people coming into a lab and you know, 284 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.000 being aroused and having orgasms and you know, and then 285 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:45.159 I'm like, oh, I can I be there with my 286 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:49.639 notepad and my tape recorder. It's like really awkward. 287 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:52.159 Or in your case, can you get in an MRI 288 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:54.360 and bone? 289 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.120 Yeah? Yeah, yeah. It was actually ultrasound, which is even worse. 290 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:03.279 At least with an MRIU would have some privacy, right, Yes, 291 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:05.360 that's like the guy with the white coat with the 292 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.279 wand the ultrasound wand on my belly and my husband 293 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.879 is behind me, and really like, I can't even believe 294 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:15.799 why did I can't even believe that we did that. 295 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:18.159 I mean, it's a while ago, that was two thousand 296 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:20.759 and eight, but at the time I thought this is 297 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.480 going to be really fun to write up. And it 298 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:27.360 was incredibly awkward and embarrassing and weird. But at the 299 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.039 same time, I was like, this is going to be 300 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:30.679 a fun. 301 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.720 Chapter and to enjoy that chapter in its fullest. You 302 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.879 can see her bestseller Bonk, The Curious Coupling of Science 303 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:41.039 and Sex, in which she describes a research physician beginning 304 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.240 with taking still images, for which quote, we must hold 305 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.279 still for several seconds, like Victorians posing for a tin type, 306 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.960 only not like Victorian's posing for a tin type. She 307 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.720 continues that the doctor says, now, please make some sort 308 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.559 of movement, and then in case it's not clear, in 309 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.200 case her husband might be contemplating flap an elbow or 310 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:05.200 saluting the flag, the doctor adds in and out. The 311 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:08.079 doctors pleased with this result. Again, this is from the 312 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:11.799 book Bonk. In cases like not already in your shopping cart, 313 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:14.480 no one quite hops in as much as you do, 314 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.160 and you even go in an iron lung in this book, 315 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.359 which was a really heartwarming story. But what I loved 316 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.079 about reading this is it runs the gamut from just 317 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:31.160 tissue and cells to mechanics and having to rely on 318 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:35.720 these machines. When you were writing it, were you trying 319 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:38.039 to kind of parse out if this was going to 320 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.720 be a book more about machines and what they could do, 321 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:43.720 or more about cell cultures and what we can do 322 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:45.960 on a cellular level, or was it all just sort 323 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:47.680 of like, let's try to fix what's wrong. 324 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:54.240 It was a situation where I initially really didn't want 325 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:58.920 to go into stem cells and bioprinting. It's just it's 326 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:04.079 very complic and I don't have a background in genetics, 327 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:07.279 even if I'm a Liberal arts major, and I'm like, 328 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:08.839 I don't even know if I want to take this off. 329 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.240 You know, science is like the era of bodies on 330 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.839 slabs is gone. We're talking protein receptors and genomes and 331 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:20.559 things that can't easily be described visually for people in 332 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:22.359 the way that I like to do it. But then, 333 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:25.279 you know, you immerse yourself in a topic, and very 334 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.680 quickly I realized that's absurd. You really have to cover 335 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:32.279 that to some extent. So initially I'm always more interested 336 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.559 in the human elements of things. You know, this book. 337 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:40.680 In addition to the finger I had also around that time, 338 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.799 the other cooler faucet was I'd gotten an email from 339 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:48.519 a reader, Judy Berna, who said, your next book needs 340 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.200 to be about professional football referees, which made no sense 341 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.400 to me at all. I don't watch football, I never 342 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:56.720 talked about football anyway. That was what she thought. But 343 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:59.759 we started communicating because I wrote back to her because 344 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:03.960 I intrigued by why she thought that. Anyway. She hasn't 345 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.920 to mention that she's an amputee, and I said, oh, well, 346 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:10.759 what's new in the world of amputation, and as one does, 347 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.680 and she said, well, I'm actually I'm an elective amputee. 348 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:20.880 Elective amputation meaning somebody who makes a decision or wants 349 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:26.079 to have a limb cut off because it's not performing 350 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.400 its functionality as compromise. But it is a healthy foot 351 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:31.759 or hand or whatever it is, and so it's very 352 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.759 hard for her to find a surgeon willing to take 353 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:35.680 off her foot. 354 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.799 Mary writes that she has found herself at the Amputee 355 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.480 Coalition National Conference, and she quotes a passage from the 356 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:46.279 memoir of Judy Berna, who is an elective amputee born 357 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:50.440 with spina bifida and having complications with her foot that 358 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:54.359 twisted as it grew. Mary writes that her childhood was 359 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:58.480 dense with surgeries and stubborn infections, and then in her 360 00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:01.880 memoir Just One Foot, Judy wrights my foot had become 361 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.559 a science experiment, a mess of flesh and bones but 362 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:09.279 few working nerves. And Judy told Mary that even though 363 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.759 this foot exhausted and limited her, she'd watch people with 364 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.359 prosthetic limbs managing things she struggled with but the surgeon said, like, 365 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:19.759 now we want you to keep it. 366 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:21.720 Because it's just like this is healthy tissue, you know, 367 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.640 and it's like there's a finality to amputation. You're not 368 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.960 going to put that foot back on. And she it's 369 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.720 spent a long time trying to find somebody who would 370 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.799 agree to take it off. And I thought that was 371 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.079 really interesting that we don't have the power over our 372 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:38.400 own bodies in that way. 373 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:38.680 You know. 374 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.519 It's also has to do with that bias for wholeness, 375 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.240 this sense that you're just better off with all your parts, 376 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.839 especially if we on the outside of all this, if 377 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:50.880 we see you, we want you to look hole that 378 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.599 kind of thing, and it's absurd. You know, she's much 379 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.680 better off. And there's a lot of people who have 380 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:57.960 like foot drop or things that cause them to kind 381 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.279 of shuffle. They can get around, but they can't run, 382 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.200 they can't hike, they can't do things that they want 383 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:07.759 to do. And particularly with a below the knee amputation, 384 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:09.720 the things that you can do. You could get all 385 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.960 these different attachments for different sports. You know, you can 386 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.039 pretty much do whatever you want to do. 387 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:18.599 And I think that you touched on it really well 388 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:21.920 in the book of well, don't you just want to 389 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:24.759 print another leg or don't you want to do something 390 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:28.000 that looks much more life like rather than what's more functional, 391 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:30.039 and how that's much more for the comfort of the 392 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.039 people around them, Like can you not look different than me? 393 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.279 Because that freaks me out? And meanwhile it's it's not 394 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:39.079 as useful or as hand yeah at all. 395 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.519 Oh yeah, I mean think back to the artificial limbs 396 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.920 from the earlier half of the nineteen hundreds that just well, 397 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.759 even probably into the sixties and seventies, those flesh tone, 398 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:55.079 stiff kind of mannequin parts that people were using. You know, 399 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:57.839 the whole idea was to pass you know that somebody 400 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.440 couldn't tell. And now people go around wearing shorts with 401 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:06.440