Speaker 1: Alrighty, welcome everybody to a live stream version of the
Reality Based podcast. Today, I'm joined by Jay Dyer, one
of my absolute favorite content creators. I spend an obscene
amount of time listening to Jay's content. Every single time
I go on a plane, I download three or four
of your videos, your long form philosophical introductions to philosophy
and talking about descartes and talking about marks and all
of these sorts of people, and it's just unbelievably informative.
So I'm an absolute nerd for Dier's analysis. So thanks
for joining me today.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, you get to hear me being mean to
a lot of idiots. Then if you hear the yeah
long debates, But.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I think, actually my favorite ones are
your long form just monologues about different philosophers and about
introduction to philosophy. And I like how you break down
philosophy into the three branches of metaphysics, ethics, and epistemology
and explain all of that, and it's just it's just
for somebody who's like learning trying to learn philosophy and
understand it, to be able to just isolate all of
the different aspects and all of the different philosophers and
all of the different branches of philosophy and understand it,
because it just goes over my head when I hear
people speaking like a lot of sort of philosophical jargon
without actually isolating it and talking about the different branches
of the tree, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think to a lot of people it's that way.
It's just kind of like anything if you're learning an instrument,
eventually it just kind of comes. But you know, decoding
the jargon it's not that difficult, and I think, you know,
if you just persevere, it'll start making sense, especially when
you get into the more abstract stuff with Plato or
Aristotle or transcendental arguments. It becomes pretty you know, secondhand,
once you're used to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So today I wanted to focus a bit on
some more mystic mystic topics, I guess, like some of
the things that we're seeing with the Pyramids at the moment,
and also get a little bit into Eastern religions and
your take on things like Hinduism. And I'm actually in
Asia at the moment and I'm seeing a lot of
these sort of spiritual practices and since reading a little
bit into orthodoxy. You can't really unsee the relationship that
they have with the quote unquote gods or demons over here.
Speaker 3: So I want to talk about little bit about that.
Speaker 1: But in regards to the Pyramids, I mean, there's so
many different theories out there. We've got the Zacharais Sitchens guy.
We've got like Magical Egypt by John Anthony West and
people like this. We've got Graham Hancock does a lot
of work in this regard. They've got the Sphinx having
all of the water damage to suggest that it's like
much older than what people think, and that there used
to be a rainforest there where the desert is now.
And then recently we've had this discovery where it may
or may not be the case that there are these
massive pillars underneath the pyramids.
Speaker 3: So how have you and Arper did that? Do you
think that there's any sort of merit to that.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, a lot of the technology that they're using,
it's all pretty new to me. I started reading about
that last week or whatever it was they first announced it.
So I don't know that I could speak to exactly
what's going on. I've tried my best to get to
the bottom of it, decipher it, and it looks like
there's something going on, you know, when you talk about
that underwater chamber. I did go and find the mister
bs video where he supposedly, you know, went down there
and got in the water. So there actually is a large,
sizeable pool of water underneath the sphinx. I think that's right,
or one of the tombs. And so to me, that
does suggest the possibility that there's stuff that we don't know.
I think it is confirmed from the paper from twenty
twenty two that there's at least some under the pyramid
chambers that were not known about until recently. But more
controversial is the claim of the yet to be here
reviewed new paper by the same people like Bondie and
the other guy, that there are these resonances that can
be shot out that pick up supposedly, you know, two
kilometer long cylindrical things underneath the pyramid. So if that
technology is real, as best I could see, it's a
real thing, and if their readings are real, it does
suggest that there's something going on. But you know, I
just I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised. I mean,
it would line up with you know, different alternative narratives
of history for these kinds of places, these kinds of
important you know, wonders of the world, and it perhaps
could suggest something like a global flood. I do think
that the Biblical narrative would line up with this. It
might suggest, you know, the Genesis six narrative that I'm
sure everybody's heard about the Nephelim and the idea that
there might have been at some point Titans that existed,
and that that might relate to you know, the ancient
world and many of the other megaliths and you know
unexplained sort of pyramids and ziggurats throughout the world. So
there's a lot of possibilities here, and you know, it's
fun to look into. I have read over the years
you mentioned West, and I've read some other people that
have written on I read Graham Hancock's book back in
the day, So yeah, I try to keep an open mind,
but I don't have any set conclusion on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's your take on like ancient civilizations, Because I
think Graham Hancock and guys like this, they have really
opened the door for this discussion to be happening that
civilization actually might be a lot older and this shit
is so fascinating when you look into it. Like even
where I'm at at the moment in Indonesia, there's a
place called Ganang Pedang, which they've they've.
Speaker 3: Done like what is it called.
Speaker 1: We just drilled down into the earth and they get
like like some sort of material from the structures below
and they combondate it and it's something like twenty thousand
years old when they when they get low enough. I mean,
do you think that civilization is a lot older? And
I want to get into the to the whole Nephelin
thing very soon, do you think the civilization is a
lot older than people would have us believe.
Speaker 2: Well, if you look at where they make that extrapolation,
people like Hancock or others. You know, when I was
in Bible College, we did a pretty in depth analysis
of the yogamesh Epic, the anuma Alish and these other
you know, ancient Ugar, Riddic and Mesopotamian texts, and they
have these really kind of wild claims about the kings
and that they were they sort of deified them in
the text that you know, King ya Unki, whoever lived
to be one hundred thousand years old or ten thousand
years old, So I don't put a whole lot of
stock in those texts because they're kind of wild and outlandish,
which is not I mean, I don't out of hand
dismiss it, but I tend to view I have a
pretty maybe outside the norm view that I tend to
think Genesis is pretty historical. So I'm kind of probably
in the minority with that view. So I tend to
favor and give precedence to the Genesis narrative over what
I would read in the Inuma a leash or something
like that. So I disagree with Hancock about, you know,
the dating, but I do think it's possible that there
are alternative narratives that are covered up about things like
the Pyramid about a global flood. In fact, that's actually
in a lot of ancient mythological traditions. If you read
the Eiching, I think the first few pages of it
discusses a global flood. Hancock even talks about in the
Dune in Peru. There's ancient Peruvian myths of a global flood.
The Mesopotamian text, the Inumalish, the the go gomesh Epic,
they also describe a global flood. So well, I do
think there's a lot of attestation to the possibilities of
alternative narratives, and maybe the timelines are not what we're
told that kind of stuff. But but yeah, don't I don't.
I tend to favor more of a Genesis account.
Speaker 1: And if Genesis were to be actually historically accurate, when
when would that be dated back to?
Speaker 2: In the Orthodox Church, we have what's called the Byzantine calendar,
and it would range from about six to ten thousand
years for the age of the earth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, And so I mean, in terms of
the Orthodox view, if you could give like an overview
of of like the history of civilization, what did I
say about that?
Speaker 2: Well, I think a great question. But I think we
have to admit that the further back we go, the
fog year. It is especially for the if you do
believe in the Genesis account, right, you have the flood
by you know, Genesis eight, nine, ten eleven, and then
you get you know, the events like the Tower Babble afterwards,
and so there's a lot of things that are not
really mentioned. We don't really know the way that that
world functioned or how it functioned. But there's two interesting
things that do speak to it that kind of relate
to tradition. One is the Book of ench which is
a fascinating text that is cited in the New Testament.
So the Book of Jude does cite the Book of Enuch,
which is one of the reasons why I do think
the Genesis six narrative is talking about angels and not
just righteous godly men that went after pagan women. And
there's other texts and what's called the Judo Kennon. This
would be like Judith or the Book of Baruk. These
texts do also mention the Titans as the offspring of
Genesis six. So if you have a Catholic or an
Orthodox Bible, you have those extra books that would also
attest to Genesis six being about angels and men and
thus the Nephilim or the Titans or the Giants. But
the Book of Enich describes specifically that this world was
very corrupted before the flood and that you had these
yeah essentially what was demonic human sacrifice that these entities required.
And so one of the reasons for the flood is
that that they've become so corrupt and they seem to
have set up this sort of something to do with
zigarots and pagan worship such that it required human sacrifice,
which is a pretty universal ancient thing. Amongst all the cultures,
most of them practice human sacrifice, which I do think
again kind of attests to the biblical narrative. And then
outside of the biblical stories or the tradition of the
Book of Enoch, you have Plato. And Plato has two
places particularly where he talks about ancient anti what could
be antidiluvian civilizations. It's particularly the Timaeis, which is the
most fascinating of all of Plato's discourses, and it's the
one that's the cosmology, cosmogony of the universe, and it's
very esoteric. He says that he got this tradition from
a man who went to the priests in Egypt who
handed him down this ancient tradition. And there's also a
mention of Atlantis, and I think Priido is the other.
There's two dialogues, I think Crido and tomaas mentioned these
ancient civilizations. Now Plato doesn't give it like any kind
of weird you know, he doesn't say they had UFOs
or you know, advanced technology per se, but he says
it was like a concentric a city of concentric circles
that were like rivers and lakes, and they were very powerful.
And he says that like in one day, like they
were just destroyed by a flood. So that's another ancient
attestation to the possibility of these other types of civilization
and you know, lost civilization, so to speak. And one
last thing too that a lot of people don't know about.
If you read the Fayeta, which is another one of
the Platonic dialogues, this lesser known In that dialogue, Socrates
talks about that there are undiscovered realms and places deep
below the earth that could inclose or could include inhabitants
or vegetation things like that. He doesn't say that there's
like hollow earst people, but it sounds like he's talking
about the hollow earth theory, which a lot of people
don't know. That's in Plato. So I'm not saying that
that means it's true. I'm just saying that, you know,
there could be all kinds of ancient civilizations that we
don't know about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you do through the Book of Enoch because
I always find that really fascinating. Was that Billy Billy
Carson always talks about the Book of Enoch, and so
Enoch was Enoch was someone's uncle.
Speaker 2: Well, Enoch in the book. He's in Genesis early on,
and we don't we're not told much about him. But
in Genesis, after you have canaan Abel, you have like
basically two lineages that split from Adam and Eve. One
line of people are the wicked, and then another line
of people are the righteous, and so that they constitute
the church of that time from the Orthodox perspective. And
amongst the righteous, one of them was a guy named Enich,
and we're not told a whole lot about him, but
that he walked with God and was apparently translated or taken.
So he along with he's mentioned in the New Testament
along with Elijah because of the two people that have
not yet undergone physical death, and so they actually make
an appearent appearance in places in the New Testament where
it talks about, you know, people that have not yet
even undergone a physical death. So there's this tradition in
the Church that there is something going on with the
person of Enoch in the Book of Genesis, and the
Book of Enich is a older than the New Testament.
But it's not exactly we don't exactly know where it
comes from. It's kind of a mysterious text. It's not
part of the Orthodox canon, but it's part of loosely,
as you could say, part of our tradition because it's
cited again in the New Testament in Jude three. So
the book basically describes the state of the world before
the flood, and it does attribute the existence of the
Nephelin to some sort of intermixing or interbreeding or intermarriage
between the sons of God or the angels and women.
And so Jude then rebukes anyone who would leave their
natural state to go after something unnatural, and we know
it's unnatural because he likens the sons of God going
after human women as something that was improper to their
rank or their classification. So that I think is definitely
what the New test was talking about when it talks
about that in June three. But I think that the
Book of Enoch describes it pretty hillacious. It's almost like
hell Raiser type of world where you have these you
have these beings that are basically requiring humans worship them
as deities and then you know, sacrifice other humans to them.
And thus some people would then argue that the legends
that we have in Greek mythology about the Titans, sons
of the gods, the giants, et cetera, that that led
that that mythology of the Titans, or perhaps you know
the story of Hercules or something like that. You know,
these might be aberrations or traditions that come from this
primeval antediluvian before the flood world.
Speaker 1: And why do these like modern day mystics or whatever
like these these people like Billy Carson, et cetera, Why
did they always talk about the Book of Enoch and
why are they always referring to to this book was
so important to them?
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I think that if you I mean,
I viewed Billy Carson as kind of a con man.
So I think that it's kind of like anything to
do with the UFOs or you know, the paranormal, it's
very sensational. People find that to be very you know,
people love that stuff. You know, it's it's it's it's fun,
it's entertaining. It's a lot more interesting, you know, like
the end time stuff in the Bible versus you know,
Jesus parables or proverbs or whatever. So I think I
think it's a it's a sexier topic to talk about
for for one reason. But I think in his case,
I haven't listened a whole lot of his stuff. I
listened to his debate with Wes Huff and some other clips.
I mean, he usually tries to tie it into you know,
gnostic messages of the gods and you know, we was
Kings type stuff.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and in terms of the nephylum, because I've
heard this this sort of like referenced a lot, what
exactly the nephilin they're like an ancient species of giants.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the the idea is based on Genesis six,
and then other texts like Barrack, which is a dudocononical book,
Judith duderocononical book, Book of Wisdom, another dudoconical text, Jude three,
Book of Enich. This inter marriage into relationship that happened
produced aberrations. Again, we're not told a whole lot except
that they were giants in the Book of Enoch. They
had a lot of abilities, I guess you could say,
and so they had some degree of technological know how,
they had some degree of prowess, you know, just due
to their stature, and they utilized that in a very
tyrannical way. And so there's this idea that they required
not just human sacrifice, but the consumption of blood, blood, rituals,
this kind of stuff. And that might be why the
flood was so universal, was that this was pretty much everywhere,
to the point that it would have almost destroyed the
entire creation. And so there was cleansing baptism, so to speak,
as the New Testament speaks seven terms of the flood.
But again it's very speculative. I mean, it's not like
you know that that's a very few verses in the
Bible that allude to this, so it's not like it's
a central aspect of the story. And there is a
lot of debate as to what it means. A lot
of people, church fathers and saints have been split over it.
I mean, you have some that believe that it's these aberrations,
these titans, and then you have other church fathers who
believe that it's just speaking of the sons of God
being the righteous people of that time, being corrupted by
marrying into the three or fours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I got ya. And I think a lot
of the time when people look at these stories. They
look at them as like really sort of mystical and
woo woo. And also, if God doesn't make mistakes, then
the argument would be, then how were these sort of
beings created and why and why are these sort of
demons able to run right on the earth.
Speaker 2: And Jesus, you're right that in terms of the original creation,
there's no mistakes. The creation was good, it was pronounced good,
it was in a state of testing and free will.
So we wouldn't necessarily say that free will and the
ability to be tested as a defect, because in God's
fore knowledge and in terms of his divine providence, he
of course knew that the outcomes eventually would be even
better with the incarnation of the Messiah. But we would
say that the source of the entropy, the decay, the mortality,
the corruption is the fall, which was a free will
decision on the part of Adam and Eve to make
a compact with the fallen being Lucifer, the layton who
fell prior to the events of Genesis. We know that
other Texas scripture described the testing of the angels happening
before the testing of Man, and the angels that rebelled
would become the leading forces that would then test and
try to deceive and corrupt Man. And unfortunately Adam and Eve,
our forefathers, did choose to go along with that rebellion,
and that's what introduced the corrupted state of reality, where
human beings are now subject to mortality, death, decay, etc.
And the world is also obviously corrupted. So you get
a total change in the metaphysics and the functioning even
to the created order. In the Orthodox perspective and the
orth actual perspective here is unique. It's a little more
flushed out. I would say in this regard that rather
than the typical sort of Latin Western Protestant view, which
just kind of focuses on, well, we send, we did
bad things and so now we're vanished from the garden,
we actually think that it altered the entire structure of
the universe. So the whole universe was situated under Man
as kind of the steward or the covenant head of
the universe. He would have been Adam would have been
a priest to the entire universe had he been righteous.
When he failed, that sort of introduced a giant fissure
in the very fabric of the entire cosmos. So that's
why there's entropy in decay and catastrophism all throughout the
stellar heavens that we see and on Earth as well.
So even things like mosquitoes in the Orthodox view, wouldn't
have functioned in the same sort of predatory cycle way
that we see death and decay functioning. So I don't
mean to go off track, but there's a reason why
I say all that, and that's to get to your
point about the nations where we see these sort of
spirits still being worshiped or or people still being sort
of enslaved to them. You're talking about, you know, places
in Southeast Asia and those kinds of countries where you
see the ancient pagan tradition is still alive and vibrant.
That's the ancient world, right, Like that's how human beings,
generally speaking, we're functioning in the ancient world and the
pre fall or pre flood world after the fall, that's
the way Genesis describes it. But we actually get a
really deeper insight into this, not just in Genesis, but
also in Deuteronomy, where we have the things like the
Song of Moses and then the Psalms, where we have
descriptions of the nations being underneath various fallen rulers or entities.
So it's almost like when mankind fell and after the
Tower Babbel incident, the nations who are now pagan nations
essentially are underneath various beings or demonic spirits, and that's
why we see the universality of idolatry human sacrifice, you know,
basically pagan practices throughout the entire ancient world. And again
I think that's something that Genesis attests to, and even
secular history pretty much attests to that. One other thing
i'd say about the civilizations and the megaliths and this
kind of stuff, I would I would I mean, this
doesn't prove anything necessarily, but I would say that if
the biblical narrative is true, it actually does make sense
why you would have these sort of unexplained megaliths and
lost civilizations, because it's this primeval pre flood world that
was ravaged, and the flood actually does quite a bit
to explain that sort of ravaging, especially like you mentioned,
like if Giza was underwater at some point other places
as well that seemed to defy explanation, and perhaps you
had you know, titans or beings like this involved in
the construction of some of these ancient you know, Easter
Island heads. We don't know how they got there or
what they are. You know, they seem to be they
seem to defy explanation, as do some of the other
megalith sites. I'm not saying all of them defy explanation.
I'm sure if some of them were constructed by humans
and could be reconstructed by humans, but some of them
do defy explanation. So you've got you know, underwater pyramids
off the coast of Japan that no one knows what
they are. They just found an entire underground city in
China years ago.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, and no one, Well, that is a site.
Speaker 2: That people debate, but I think it's the Long long
U Caves something like that. It's a gigantic cave system
that was found I think maybe twenty years ago, and
it was accidentally found because they drained the village uh
water cisterns and somebody found like a door and they
went down to the door and they found an entire
underground city and there's giant columns and just it's it's crazy.
It's massive, and no one knows what it does. No
one knows who built it, what civilization built it, where
it came from. It's just a completely unknown undergrad Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well that's the same with the one in Turkey. Have
you seen that that at that ancient city, that underground
city in Turkey? And the debate that people have is like,
why the hell did they build this thing? Because in
one sense they I think that like the generic understanding
of it is that the Assyrians were going to invade
and then that these people in Turkey had to make
these cities to avoid capture. But it's like that's it, Like,
in the time that would take to create that whole city,
why couldn't they just sort of like relocate? But I
don't know what could both be the other explanation for
underground cities.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I mean there's all kinds of I guess
speculations that we could come up with. Maybe they believed
in some sort of you know, false prophecy that the
world's going to be destroyed, or I mean, who knows, right,
maybe they thought if they if they were invaded by it,
you know, an outside and to be forced, this would
be the best way to hold up and hide. I
had no idea. It's a great question. I mean there's
actually a lot of these. I mean, I mean if
you researched into this topic, which I'm not like an
expert on it, but like this kind of stuff gets
discovered even all the time. They just found a giant
tunnel network of the Mayans or the Hasteg so like
a few weeks ago, which nobody knew what they were
or where they were, and a lot of times this
stuff that they find, like with underneath the pyramid, there
are long standing legends of these things, right, There's these
legends that there's you know, caverns and something underneath the
pyramids that no one knows about. There's these legends that
the Aztec, whether it was my Astec, I don't remember,
but that they have these passageways in secret cities or
whatever and then they just turn up. So I think
that the Japanese underwater Pyramid was discovered like in the
eighties and the nineties. So I think with the technology
that we have now, it's going to it makes a
lot more sense with you know, satellites and whatnot, that
this kind of stuff could be much easier to find
than prior to this technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they think that the Amazon used to have
a bustling population of like ten or twenty million or
something like that. The Amazon used to be actually thriving.
And the crazy thing about the Amazon is that they've
got that Terra Parada soil that's man made. It's actually
like a man made soil, and the whole entire Amazon
is essentially man made. And that there used to be
these sort of bustling, thriving civilizations there until things like
I think smallpox and these other diseases were introduced by
the Europeans whatever. But that's insane information about the Amazon
being man made.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've got lost civilizations that just just the
entire groups of people that disappear the Ana sause the
growing up colony. No one knows what happened. They just disappeared,
like you would think there would be some you know,
somebody leaving some kind of message like, hey, we all
died because of the plague. You know, if you don't
find it, so but nothing found, that's that's odd. Yeah.
I think that, you know, there's a lot of mysteries
when it comes to this stuff. And I would add
too that keep in mind that when it comes to
the ancient world, even texts like Plato or Aristotle when
they discussed to some degree this kind of ancient history.
I think a lot of people assume that we have
Plato's books. No, we don't have Plato's books. The oldest
version of Plato is medieval monastic translations in the West,
so like Middle Ages, like eleven hundred something like that.
That's the oldest version of Plato. So we're it's still like,
you know, fifteen hundred years removed from actual Plato. And
now I'm not saying that that means that we should
doubt Plato. I don't think there's reason necessarily to doubt
that it was faithfully transmitted. But what it shows is
that the further back we go, historians, and I'm speaking
as somebody with that was I have a history degree,
historians do a lot of guesswork. They don't there's a
lot they don't know. So when it comes to these
ancient civilizations and all the different theories, it's like when
you hear the sort of normy historians telling you as
if they know everything, like all the there's tons of guesswork,
we don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just let everyone knows well in the chat.
We are going to be reading super chests at the
end of the stream once we're finished with the discussion.
But I find out this stuff really interesting. And you
mentioned that these civilizations just sort of go missing, these
whole people groups just go missing. And it's the same
with information as well, because when these civilizations go missing,
all of the information knowledge that they've acquired. That's why
you know, Billy casting forbidden knowledge, you know, forbidden secret knowledge.
That's how they say all these sorts of things. But
like you know, there would be a lot of just
knowledge that's just gone missing. You've got the Library of
Alexandria and the Library of Baghdad and all these places
that have just been wiped out throughout histories. Like we
didn't even know what kind of what kind of knowledge
could have been lost over the years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's entirely possible that some of these ancient
megaliths and sites, perhaps they were built with technology that
we don't know about. I don't know that, there's no
way to prove that. It's just again kind of a mystery,
but you know, one of the texts in Genesis does
talk about the ungodly line of Kin and his descendants
they actually did pioneer quite a bit of things like
metallurgy and the organization, organization, building of cities, you know,
even farming technology. According to the Genesis account is from
the ungodly line of Cain, and it's entirely possible that
because they engaged in the worship of those beings that
the Book of nic talks about. If the Book of
Inuch is telling us some kind of tradition that's accurate,
then it also has this principle, this point in it
that the Nephelim gave to their worshipers things like technology.
Now that doesn't mean spaceships necessarily or something like that,
but it means like the ability to do metallurgy would
have then perhaps come from the knowledge that these beings had.
So that is in the Enuch text, which is interesting,
and that's probably where people like Billy Carson are pulling
the you know, advanced technology claims.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is a lot of those tales if you
look into like I read the book Musicians the Gods
by Graham Hancock, and a lot of these ancient texts
throughout history have the same sort of theme occurring, which
is civilization bringers. You've got these people who I can't
remember what it was. It might have been one of
the ancient like American ancient American civilizations, the Mayans or
whatever that have this idea of there being a great
catastrophe and then there being civilization bringers like the people
who survived the catastrophe, it still retained the knowledge and
then and then went around the world and spread that
knowledge to everyone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and fingerprints of the Gods. He has that interesting
chapter about in Peru the Nazca lines, which are again
kind of a mysterious thing. We don't really know what
their purpose was, because it looks like it would only
make sense if you're, you know, from a god's perspective
looking down at these birds and beings that are drawn
there at a very large scale. But he also talks
in that chapter about this entity that this person or
this being angel or we don't know exactly it was,
but it's this entity called Veraicocha, and Vericocha came and
supposedly left this this myth or this legend of basic
moral principles that they should live by not to kill
each other, which I guess they didn't follow that, but
be good people, don't kill each other. And I think
it was something to do with mentioning the flood as well,
that there was a global flood and that eventually other
civilizations would come, which perhaps the Peruvians believe would be
the white Europeans coming to to meet them, because I
think they described Vericocha as someone, you know, Caucasian or
white incountenance, and so they thought when the Europeans were coming, oh,
this is the you know, these are the people that
Vericocha talked to us, told us about. So you have
these really interesting, almost prophetic, sort of seated messages and
a lot of these stories and myths, and you also
have some fascinating stuff about North America as well, which
I don't know a whole lot about that, but a
couple of books that i've right on this do discuss
sort of mysterious unknown landmarks in North America, like a
lot of these sort of burial mounds that I mean,
we know that the Indians, you know, obviously had burrel mounts,
but they they they still discover like underground pyramids to
this day. In fact, there was a pyramid. I just
watched a documentary on this a few days ago. I
forget where it was, but it was a documentary about
the supposed Serbian pyramid. If you heard of this, no,
So there's a debate about this giant mountain that actually
looks like a pyramid, and people are trying to figure
out it's debated there. It does have apparently tunnels underneath it,
which doesn't necessarily mean it's a pyramid. You could have
tunnels in a mountain. But it looks a lot like
a pyramid, I have to say, and a lot of
people think that it is. And it even looks more
like a pyramid than I think the pyramid of quetzal Cotal.
If you look at the ol pictures before they kind
of scraped the dirt away, the pyramid of Queticicota looks
like just a hill. It looks like a giant burial
mount and then when they cleared away all the stuff,
you know it's actual like Ziggarott underneath there. And the
Serbian pyramid, whatever it is, looks more like a pyramid
than the Queticota one did. There's also the odd mountain
or pyramid in Antarctica, which is people have been debating
that one for a while. To me, it looks pretty pyramidal.
I mean, I guess it's possible that it's Paradolia and
it's just a mountain that looks like a pyramid, but
it looks pretty symmetrical, so you know that one's another
fascinating one. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why pyramids though, I mean, uh, like, what's the
story there?
Speaker 2: My guess would be that the fallen beings or the demons,
for whatever reason, have preferred that form or that geometrical structure.
Not that any not than a triangle is inherently evil,
but I think it points to or it's a kind
of a react reenactment of Babbel. Whatever the tower Babbel was.
I don't think that it was literally like they thought
they could climb into heaven. But it was a tower,
a giant, you know, Ziggarot built in defiance of the
God of Heaven. That's the way it's described in Genesis.
And so Nimrod becomes this sort of one world ruler
person who wants to build and create a one world
civilization and pyramid where he's worshiped essentially and perhaps human
sacrificed as well. And believe it or not, the first
paper I ever wrote in Bible College back when I
was eighteen, it was actually about this was about the
Tower of Babel, because my argument in the paper was
that the reason that all of these world imperial you know,
civilizational sites, whether it's Egypt or whether it's the zigg
I mean, it's all that pyramidal structure because it's kind
of a re enactment of what Babbel is. They want
to represent the worship of man in the place of
the worship of the True God.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it's just fascinating how it's happening all
over the world. And you also see in a lot
of these places where the pyramids are and are being discovered,
you also see a lot of pagan worship as well.
So that story actually kind of does check out in
a way. One other thing I've been looking into recently
that I've been interested in and I don't really know
much about is the Ark of the Covenant. You know,
we've all seen Indiana Jones, but like, what is the
Ark of the Covenant and why is that such a
significant thing that people want to find and why is
there so much folklore and historical sort of I guess
like guesses that people have about who had the Ark
of the Covenant, how it was moved around and is
there actually like a verified story about this.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean again, if you believe that the Old Testament,
you know, significant portion of the Torah is dedicated to
the worship of the Temple. At first, it's a tabernacle
when the Jews are in the wilderness and they're kind
of moving about before they reach the Promised Land, they
have a tabernacle, and then later on they build the
temple when David conquers Zion, and then in the Temple
you have a you know, a fixed form of worship
that's centrally located for all the Israelites. And the inside
the Temple, in the Holy of Holies is this box,
which was you know, a decent size sort of a
you said, treasure chests of sorts. But what it's actually
supposed to be not a lot of people know this
unless you kind of go deep into the biblical theology,
but it's supposed to be kind of a symbolic chariot.
And so like in the ancient world you would have
rulers and kings that would sort of ride in a
victory chariot, right if they want a war or something
like that. And the God of Israel is spoken of
a lot of times in the Old Testament as a
god of war, the Lord of Saba, of Lord of Hosts,
and so he rides, especially if you read the Book
of Ezekiel, a chariot and it's a throne chariot, so
it's both at the same time. And so the arc
is this box which has two seraphim, which are angelic
beings on the top like you see in the Niana Jones,
and it's got polls on it to be carried, so
you're not supposed to touch it, right, because it's holy.
But the reason it's holy is because it's this sort
of seat, a mercy seat or a redemption spot where
man and God are reconciled. And in the Old Testament,
the presence of God, which is a sort of glory cloud,
this manifestation or a theophany would sort of situate itself
above the ark in the Temple, and the Israelites, for example,
sometimes when they would go to battle, David's going out
the battle, they would carry the arc around in front
of them, and it was this sort of symbolic image
of the presence of the Lord of Hosts with them
in battle. For the Christian Church, for Orthodox Christians, all
of that is for us pointing to Christ because in
Ezekiel one through eleven, the one like a son of Man,
we think that's Jesus. In the Old Testament, he's pictured
as writing on this celestial chariot. The chariot is the
living beings, these angels. So Jesus rides an angel chariot. Basically,
what I'm trying to say, that's what.
Speaker 3: The arc is.
Speaker 2: The arc is the symbol, and then what Christ is
is the reality that corresponds to the typological foreshadowing symbol.
So when He comes and the work that he does
in terms of death, row, resurrection, ascension, et cetera, that's
all the fulfillment of not just the temple, but also
the arc itself. We also think that Mary, his mother,
is the arc. She, for example, was the house from
which God came forth. God dwelt in her, was born
from her, and so she becomes a kind of arc.
And there's actually direct parallelism in the Book of Luke
in the first couple of chapters that parallels a lot
of the imagery of the arc in the historical books
of the Old Testament. So Mary is a new arc.
Jesus himself is the arc.
Speaker 3: Also, what do you mean by by arc?
Speaker 2: Just quickly, it's a it's a box. Basically, it's a
golden box that has three elements within it. The pot
of manna from the Jews ate in the wilderness. The
rod of Aaron, which symbolizes the authority of the priesthood
that blossoms miraculously. That's for us an image of the
cross or the direction in the Ten Commandments. So you
know Moses' ten commandments and said, those three things inside
the arc of the covenant, and they're all the central
images and symbols of God's covenant with Israel. And again
for us, all of that is the person of Christ
who becomes a physical arc. His body is the arc
ok and he's the fulfillment of all those things. The potom,
he's the manna, the breath, the bread that wet, he's
the rod of authority of the priesthood that blossoms miraculously.
And he's the living Torah or the living tank commandments
not just written on stone. So that's what the ark is. Now.
The Book of Jeremiah prophesies in i think chapter two
or three that when the Messiah comes. This is interesting.
The arc won't be known or spoken of. So it's
supposed to be one of the signs that there's no
longer an arc of the Covenant in the Old Testament
sense of the box, the fulfillment's here, okay. And after
seventy a d. When the Temple was destroyed by Titus
Vespasian under the Roman Empire when they came and sacked Jerusalem.
This is forty years after Christ right. Jerusalem gets destroyed
in seventy eighty by the Roman Empire, nobody has known
about an arc. So that's one of the signs, according
to Jeremiah, that the Messianic Age is here, is that
you don't have or you don't know about the arc. Now,
I mean, is it possible that someone could find the arc?
It's possible. I mean you have people claiming to have
found that, you know, Ethiopian, the Telwahido Church claims that
they have it. My godfather's actually been there. He's been
to Ethiopium many times on different missions and whatnot. He
has an open mind about it, but he doesn't really
think that that's It's very likely, and.
Speaker 1: So is The Covenant is definitely a historical thing. It
definitely like existed.
Speaker 2: Even if you're an atheist in the sense, like even
if you didn't believe any of the miraculous testimonies, Like
the Jews had an arc of the Covenant.
Speaker 1: Right right, Okay, and then the ark of the Covenant
symbolically becomes Christ because Christ represents all of those different
factors within the Ark of the Covenant.
Speaker 3: But in human form.
Speaker 1: So in a sense like Jesus actually sort of abrogates
that arc of the Covenant in a way, and it
become it becomes sort of obsolete orsar.
Speaker 2: It becomes fulfilled in Christ, in his mother in a us.
So like a lot of the Orthodox Saints point out that,
like we're the living arcs now, because it's God's presence
amongst the It's there's a word for God called the Emmanuel, right,
God with us, and the true Emmanuel is the Son
of God literally among us in a body. Right, So
the arc was a a typological embodiment of God's presence
amongst the Israelites, and in the New Testament that's fulfilled
in the person of Christ taking on an actual human body,
which is a living arc.
Speaker 3: Okay, yep.
Speaker 1: And so isn't there some sort of like a folklore
about the Knights Templar, their mission being to protect the
Ark of the Covenant and to store it around in
different places around the world, or to take it from Jerusalem.
Speaker 2: Moore. There could be I mean, I remember reading about
the Templars maybe ten years ago. I read several books
on that back then, and there's a lot of legends
and stories and myths, and to be honest with you,
I'm not exactly sure what the true story of the
Templars is. The main line story is that they were
becoming too wealthy and too powerful, and the King of
France basically decided that they needed to be put to
an end, and so, together with the I think it
was one of the Frankish popes, they had a Council
of v enn I forget what year, it was, thirteen something,
but they alleged that the Templars had become a Satanic
sect and that they engaged in these sort of bizarre
rituals and kissed a button, worshiped the cat head as
really weird stuff. But it's also possible that the King
of France wanted their wealth as well. So, I mean,
there's a lot of different possibilities here, and we don't
really know what was true and it was false, But
it does seem like they became a very powerful order.
They supposedly were like the inventors of a checking system,
like writing a check, so they presumably had a lot
of wealth. But as to how deep they got into
esoteric philosophy, some people theorized that they were influenced by
cabalistic rabbis and they were reading cabalistic texts, and so
they were not really Christian anymore, but some kind of
something else. I guess all those things are possible, and
I think that legend is what contributed to later esoteric
groups like the Freemasons forging a link with the Templars.
Whether that's really there or not, who knows.
Speaker 1: Do you think the Freemasons are just a gentleman's club
around the world, or do you think that the Free
Masons are actually some sort of a spiritual movement that
once you reach the upper echelons of that they have
some sort of like a like a religious practice or
esoteric practice.
Speaker 2: I think all the above. In fact, speculative Freemasonry, which
starts to spread in Europe in the fifteen hundreds and
the sixteen hundreds, gets solidified under the British Empire when
the Grand Lodge of London is created in the early
seventeen hundred, seventeen thirteen sixteen, I forget the exact year,
but at that time. And there's actually a great historical
non conspiracy book on this by Jessica Harland Jacobs. It's
called Builders of Empire. She points out that in the
seventeen hundreds, in the eighteen hundreds, the Masonic lodge system
is kind of the British Empire's espionage network. And if
you want a movie that kind of hints at that,
there's actually a really good it's a Masonic movie, believe
or not. It's called The Man Who Would Be King
with Michael Caine and Sean Connery and they play to
Masonic I guess you could call them spies, and they
try to go and dupe a bunch of Pagans and
the Himalayas into thinking that Sean Connery is the reincarnation
of Alexander the Great. So it's it's actually a pretty
good movie, but it has a Masonic philosophy to the movie,
and it presents them as these sort of you know,
spies or you know, operatives of the British Empire. So
I think that's what the that's what masonry was historically
when the British Empire had its apex of power. And
then I think that as it waned, Masonry continue to
exist as an institution with a lot of different spin
offs and fringe groups and splits and sex and you know,
in Europe, for example, you have very extreme versions of Masonry,
like Grand orient Lodge masonry that played a big role
in the French Revolution, and you know, rabid Jacobin atheist
type philosophy. So I think that, yeah, at a high
level it's atheistic, but there's also fringe pathways that people
can take in terms of irregular lodges. Like if you
study the Alistair Crowley stuff, that's considered high level of
Masonic stuff, but it's not accepted Masonry. It's like graduate
level outside of the box masonry, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got a friend on Facebook I used to
be like you used to know when I live in London.
He's just become a free Mason and he's always posting
like Mason life, you know, like Mason traditions, and he's
posting these photos of him in his like.
Speaker 3: Like you know that outfit that they wear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they look like it's like almost like the guys
who stand outside the Queen's the Queen's tower, now the
king they're what's it called again where they live in London,
bucking the Bucky and Palace. Those guys who stand outside
of Bucky and Palace. The Mason outfits almost look like
those dudes, right the King's gallot. But yeah, I mean,
so you don't think that the Freemasons really have that
much power anymore, or they're not this sort of like
like movers and shakers underground society.
Speaker 2: I mean, there are a lot of powerful, wealthy people
who are still involved in Freemasonry, but I don't think
that they have the power and the influence that they had,
you know, one hundred hundred and fifty years ago. In fact,
I think the younger of the generations are the less
they're interested in that kind of stuff. So as I
understand that Masons are like not getting the recruits that
they used to get, but that doesn't mean that the
is not still you know, very high level, very powerful,
you know, thirty third degree Scottish Rite Freemasons out there.
I mean, the Duke of Kent, if he's still alive,
like he was one of the heads of Masonry along
with the Queen, So I mean they have power.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, I want to get up too Eastern religions soon,
but just quickly. One other thing that I've been curious
about recently is gnosticism, because you hear a fair few
people talking about Nassism as if it's some sort of
like a forbidden knowledge about Christianity, and that these people
actually had it right and they understand the spiritual components
of Christianity a lot better than the actual like Orthodox Christians.
So what exactly is gnosissism and like is where does
that tradition come from.
Speaker 2: That's a great segue to the far Eastern stuff, because
the earliest mentions that we have of what becomes known
as Gnoscissism is actually Paul's letter to Timothy. Well there's two,
but in the letter to Timothy, he mentions that he's
just beware of those who call themselves those who have
gnosis or knowledge. And there's a warning there because already
at that time there was this I guess you could
say far Eastern mystic influenced idea that Christ was perhaps
a Brahmin or another you know, yogi or something like that. Already,
even in the days of the Apostles, there's another tradition.
I don't know how legitimate that is. It may just
be a tradition, but some of the Gnostic groups claimed
that Simon Magas. In the Book of Acts, you have
this character named Simon Megas who sees the Apostles preaching,
and that he sees them doing an exorcism, and Simon
Megas comes up to Peter and says, how much for
that power? I'll pay you for it? And Peter curses
Simon Magas and says, you, son of the devil, purchase
the gift of God. And that's where we get the
term simony. So for the rest of the history of
the church, the crime or the sin of simony is
trying to buy a religious office. But it comes from
Simon Megas. And many early groups that claim to be
Gnostic trace their lineage or claim to have a trace
ilineage from Simon Vegas. The first real extensive history that
we have of Gnostics comes from Saint Aarnais, probably the
most famous theologian along with Tertullian of the second century.
He wrote a gigantic book called Against Heresies in one
point eighty and the first two or three hundred pages
of Against Heresies is literally just Arnaeus describing all the
Gnostic groups in his day. So within one hundred years
of the Apostles or so, you had just endless sects,
mystery cults, gnostic groups, just dozens and dozens of them,
and he describes them at length and in detail all
their beliefs, and they're different leaders, and he mentions different
many different Gnostic groups. He mentions the Valentinians, the Basilidians,
the there's a bunch of them anyway. But long story short,
the commonalities that the Gnostics all have are basically, the
God of the Old Testament is an evil, demonic being.
He's the false God, the Satan of what Christians called Satan.
The Gnostics call that Jehovah right. And so that evil
God is the source of the created world, physical matter, flesh,
and so the Gnostics then saw Jesus as this liberator
who comes to save mankind from physicality, time and space
and some return to pure spirit. And it varies from
that to all kinds of goddess type stuff. That Jesus
has a cohort or a consort named Sophia and just
really wild sort of mythologies that mix it with Egyptian philosophy,
mixing it with Plato and Platonism at times.
Speaker 1: I mean, so, do they believe that Jesus was man
or he was like ephemeral in some way.
Speaker 2: All the above. So there would be groups who believe
that perhaps he did appear, but probably most of them,
because they tended to think that matter was evil, they
would believe in a form of what's called dakatism, which
is that Jesus didn't have a physical body. It appeared
to be a body, but it was just sort of
a ghost, so a phantasm. So probably most of them
believed that he was just a phantasm.
Speaker 1: Interesting, and you still get so obviously gnostic gnosis. They
believed some sort of a like a knowledge that they've got.
But like you said that they believe that the Old
Testament God is like an evil, capricious God. But if
he's God, then what does that make Jesus because God
is obviously going to be so much more powerful than
just some sort of like a ghost being in Jesus.
Speaker 3: I don't really understand how they well.
Speaker 2: I think they would see Jesus as this sort of
liberating messenger to free people from the evil creator God.
And you could see how this could play into like
the matrix. Like these kinds of movies are influenced by
Gnostic thought because the message of Jesus then becomes one
where we're trapped in a hell world and the evil
God put us here, and Jesus comes to liberate us
from this metaphysical dimension basically, and that might be done
through rituals with some of the groups, it might be
done through ascetic practices, never having sex, never drinking alcohol,
and never eating meat. I mean, there's all kinds of
you name it, there was some version of it. But typically, yes,
the key to salvation was secret knowledge that the Gnostic
group had. So in contrast to normal sort of Roman
Empire Byzantine Christianity, where salvation is repentance, baptism, participating in
the sacraments, living moral life, et cetera, salvation becomes joining
a kind of secret society with secret knowledge or nosis
that will help you escape this domain.
Speaker 1: Interesting, all right, So in terms of the Eastern religions, I,
like I said, I'm currently in Southeast Asia, and once
you sort of start to look into it, you really
can't unsee a lot of the this this idea that
these people are being constantly petrified by demons and trying
to appease these gods. And recently I had this they
had this silent day here, which means that everybody stays
silent for a day, and what they do is they
build up these big effigies of demons, all these terrifying
looking demons, and then they parade them through the streets
and then they end up burning them, and everybody goes
silent for a whole day in order to try and
cleanse the place of like dark spirits. But the one
thing that I obviously noticed with in terms of Christianity,
it's like we obviously like we contend with with demons
and all these sorts of things as well, but not
to the extent where they sort of like rule our
lives and where we're so terrified by them and everything
we do is sort of this constant Do you know
what I'm saying? Like these people they tend to have
like a grasp on them. Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, as you know, Athanasius, the famous Church fathers,
and Athenasius said that now that Christ has come, the
idols are destroyed and the demons are losing their grip
and enslavement of humanity. So what he meant was that
prior to Christ, you know, you really only had the
existence of prophets and truth amongst the Israelites. But now
the crisis come, that's been opened up to all the nations,
and so the grip that the devil and his minions
had on humanity throughout these different pagan nation states, as
you're talking about, that's being loosed and being destroyed through
the freedom that comes through the preaching of the Gospel.
So yeah, that's exactly what at least in the Old
Testament and in the days of the Apostles, the idea
of the Gospel is is that it really is this
sort of spiritual confrontation between the forces of good, spiritual
forces of good, including angelic beings Michael Gabriel, et cetera,
and these real you know, beings or entities that have
a hold on people through these deeply ingrained ancient superstitious traditions.
And one of the things about superstition is that people
that are in that mindset are enslaved to things that
man was never meant to be enslaved to. So one
of the things that's overlooked and idolatry people think about it.
Dolatry is like I'm bowing to a statue and I'm
you know, sacrificing an animal to the deity or whatever.
I mean, that's all part of it, but it actually
becomes an enslaving thing, like you're talking about. It's a
spiritual enslavement to a delusion, to a falsehood that really
doesn't allow those people or the civilizations to progress. They
kind of get stuck. You know, think of India right
where you've got starving people, but you've got cows walking around,
but they won't eat it because of some bizarre cow
god position that goes all the way back even to Exodus,
where the Israelites start worshiping the cow god right when
they when they fall after Moses frees them, and then
they say, here's our god, it's a giant cow. Right.
I think that also speaks to what you see kind
of a remnant of that tradition in India, and so
it's the same where you are. It's like they believe
that there's this power that they have to placate to
even survive and that's not what we were meant to be,
as you know, made in the image of God. We're not,
as Paul says in their Testament, that we were not
meant to be enslaved to the worldly elements. And that's
precisely what happens in these kind of superstitious positions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you see a lot of that. I mean,
just the difference of when you go to a very
Christian country and the way that they worship and the
way that their churches look, and and the way that
they speak about people and about God and about Jesus
and all these sorts of things is so different to
the spiritual practices over here. But I'm telling you, Jay,
the white girls with their much a tea get just
hooked in hook line and sinker to these places. They
think that they have found the alternative. They think that
they have found this sort of higher moral of this
higher sort of level of consciousness.
Speaker 3: That's what they all say.
Speaker 1: I've just done a different level of consciousness. I'm elevating
my consciousness. But to me, it's just so apparent this
is not a more moral system. This is actually like
pretty demonic. And the practices in themselves, like even yoga
for example, a lot of the moves that they're doing
are representing these sort of battles from the back of
d Keta and these and these like Vedic traditions and everything.
So but they just don't see it that the white gills,
they just fall for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a long social engineering process of importing
far Eastern philosophies into the West, and that was done
by design, it was done on purpose. Tavistock played a
key role in that. Promoting the Beatles in the West
played a key role in that because the Beatles were
very much into transittal meditation, so they were going and
doing these photo shoots and photo ops with Maharishi Mahi
Shiogi that pushed Hinduism in the West. The Rockefaller family
famously also was a big fan of Swami Vivikananda and
they helped to push these kinds of ideas. And so
you could never have the New Age movement in the
West without these Western figures like Madam Blovatski who's the
creator of theosophy, or Crowley in his sect. You know,
people think of Crowley as like the Satanist magician guy,
which is true, but Crowley was a huge devotee of
yoga and together with Bolovatski, like they're the two champions
of yoga being popular in the West. You have never
had yoga without them, and arguably Swami Nificantnanda and rock
Filler support. So I believe that a lot of that
was by design to alter the fabric and the structure
and belief systems of the West to make it more
amenable to a future sort of globalized world citizens situation.
And so you know, people who study these topics that
are malicious, they do ethnographies, right, the CIA sends people
to do ethnographies, and they go to these countries and
you study how they function, how the belief systems affect
the people. It's called worldview warfare Belton Schunks Creek. And
you can use that knowledge, that research and use it elsewhere,
right where it works, where it's applicable. And if an
ideology like a Far Eastern philosophy, which for example, doesn't
value individuality, particularity or the one or the many, it
will always sort of favor the one or unity or
the collective the whole. Now I'm not saying that the
whole or the collective is necessarily bad, but philosophies that
favor the just the big blob are very useful in
fact alto sexually. Even says this in Perennial Philosophy, one
of his books. He says that the whole reason that
we would push far Eastern philosophy in the West is
to create a malleable, controlled, collective mindset for the West
like people in the East have. So even have Huxley
saying that that's the purpose of it, and that's yeah,
of course it appeals to you know, white girls and
yoga pants who think that they're getting mystical insights, and
really none of it makes any sense. It's like, well,
the mystical insights of yoga are actually about you doing
God forms, right, So you're actually putting yourself in a
god form to invoke that spirit or entity, right. That
being so, it's it's inherently polytheistic. I mean, I think,
I think there's anything wrong with pilates, but yoga is
intentionally a spiritual practice. So it just doesn't make any sense.
Why would you even do that, right, what's the point
of a spiritual practice that is bound up with the
invocation over the evocation of some of these gods or entities.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty creepy and all of these like breath
work things that they do. Like last year, for example,
I had the most insane experience. It's hard to even explain,
but I had a friend who came over right from Australia,
where I'm from, and he's really into his breath work
and everything, and he was like to me, man, you
should go and do this breath work. It really helps
me with my stress relief and all these sorts of things.
And I was like, I don't want to be closed minded,
so I'll come along and I'll check out your breath
work thing. Not something i'd normally get into. So he
went there and I got there and it was this
pyramid structure, right, They're all done in these pyramids, and
I was like, okay, that's a bit creepy, but whatever.
You went inside and you've got all these mats laid
down right, and you go on the mats and then
they start teaching you this breathing technique. I was kind
of just ignoring it. And then this yogi dude, typical
YOYI like in his forties, long hair, looks like a
character from Dragonball Z or something, and he starts teaching
you this, and then you start doing the breathing techniques.
They're playing this weird like Hindu sy trance music in
the background, and then he starts saying, Oh, we need
to do some mantras, so we're going to say some mantra,
and he goes, first mantra is I love myself. I'm like,
I'm obviously not going to say that's pride, so I
didn't say it. And then the next mantra that he goes,
he goes, all, right, now I want to welcome in
the feminine gods, welcome in the feminine spirits. And I
was like, fuck, no, I'm not welcoming in any pounded spirits.
I'm good, Yeah, totally checked out. At this stage. I
look over at my friend and he looks like he's
sort of similar to me, not really getting into it
that much. I look away, and then thirty seconds later
I look back at him and he is having a
full on like seizure, his arms up like that, He's
gone stiff as a board. And I looked at the dude,
the instructor, and I was like, do you want to
come over here? And he tries to come over my
friend and do some sort of like reiki. It doesn't work,
so I just like pushed him away, put my friend
in a recovery position and was holding him there for
like like a good few minutes, just hitting pressure points
and trying to like sort of keep him engaged. But
he was I've seen people have seizures before, and I
was like, oh, it looks like he's having a seizure.
He's foaming from the mouth, he's going blue and anyways,
but then out of nowhere, after a few minutes of this,
he looks up at me, like I snaps into attention,
and he attacks me. Like, and I've seen how people
have seizures before, right, And if you have a seizure,
your body is cooked after it, you can't move. People
are bedridden for days after this. So he looks up
at me and he attacks me, and we went five
rounds in the middle of this pyramid, me and my friend.
I'm bleeding everywhere, my shirt's all ripped. He has this
retard strength, and eventually I managed to like subdue him,
and a few other guys sort of like helped me
with his legs. I was terrified that he was going
to kill some little Asian lady, but yeah, fully attacked me,
and then out of nowhere, he just snaps back to
it and he looks up at me. He goes, Jake,
we need to get out of here. And I was like, dude, like,
do you know what just happened? He had no memory
of it.
Speaker 2: Heated through that whole thing.
Speaker 1: He had no memory of it whatsoever, still has no
memory of it. But he fully attacked me like he
wanted to kill me, making all of these demonic noises.
So after that, I was thinking, Okay, well, like it
couldn't have been a seizure, because I know what happens
when you have a seizure and you can't.
Speaker 3: Move after it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, what else could possibly explain that
besides that they actually did welcome in the feminine feminine
spirits and that there was some sort of possession happening there.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so what it sounds like to me. I had
a friend who went backpacking in his twenties to Europe
and he took another friend with him. I wasn't there
for this, but he told me the story, and they
decided at a hostel to do some shrooms, and the
one guy who was kind of the main guy he
had done it before, but his friend that he took
had never done it. And when he as soon as
he took shrooms, he like literally turned into a monster
and tried to bite the other guy. They had to
call the ambulance to come and give him a shot
of something to kind of wake him out of it.
And yeah, he had completely dissociated. He had no idea
what had happened. He didn't know he was trying to
eat the other dude. So it's like, I mean, yeah,
like this, I've never seen that, but I did. I
have seen a person one time that I genuinely believe
was possessed. It was somebody I know very well, and
I mean, you know, things were being said that they
don't remember saying, and it was wild. So that not all,
it doesn't have a lot, But like probably you know
in places where you are, where you do have this
sort of ancient, latent paganism still there, that's vibrant, I
would I would imagine it's probably more pronounced or more
vivid in terms of manifestations in places like where you're
talking about versus maybe the West. But I also think
that like we're starting to see more and more people
you know in the West in America too, with the
rise of people getting into witchcraft, Satanism, and the occult,
I think we're seeing more and more people being possessed
in the West as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that if there is some sort of
a door that's being opened up, then that's yeah for sure.
But like, isn't it meant to be that people who
have more holy like church fathers for examples, and priests
and guys who have achieved sainthood have more interaction with
these spirits and I have more sort of like sensitive
to these spirits. And actually there's stories of church fathers
who have had physical fights with these demons and spirits
as opposed to people who are not. But like, I mean,
I think that they're more vulnerable to being sort of
influenced by them. But these church fathers have had like
proper fights and spirits, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a long history of that kind
of stuff in terms of prayer and fasting in the church.
You know, I was just reading not too long ago,
remember the name of that. I can't remember the name
of the text, but it was like one of the
more recent Orthodox bishops had written a famous treatise and
he was actually warning the people, you know, before you
go intensely into fasting and these kinds of practices that
you will experience, you know, persecution in a spiritual way.
So yeah, I would say that's definitely, that's very well known,
and that's that's absolutely part of the Orthodox tradition. There's
a long, you know, history of that kind of stuff.
And I mean even in the Orthodox Church. You know,
every baptism has a exorcism with it. Now that doesn't
mean that they're going to manifest in a demonic way,
but you do the what's called the prayers of exorcism
as part of the baptism right in the Orthodox Church.
So it's a little bit different in the Orthodox Church
versus the way that people think of it maybe in
the Roman Catholic Church, where you have this this order
of people called exorcists that doesn't really exist in the
Orthodox Church, like any priest or even laity could conceivably
exercise a person in that situation. In the Roman Catholic tradition,
they have this, you know, the priest who is the
exorcist like in the movie. You know, so it's a
little bit different in the West. But yeah, I think
I mean, I know I've not talked to him directly,
but you've probably seen Father Deacon En and I as
on my channel. He's good friends with a pretty well
known Orthodox exorcist, so that does exist.
Speaker 3: Yo, yeah, insane?
Speaker 1: All right, Jay, Well, we'll end the audio version there
and then we'll get into some super chats. So a
couple of new channel members. We've got Travis Moulden, Trent Allen,
and Brett Elway. If you guys want to get your
super chats in now, it's going to be a great
time to ask you a question if you'd like to.
And if you guys are becoming channel members, we have
got a bunch of exclusive content for members only on
the channel.
Speaker 3: At the moment.
Speaker 1: We've got all of these live streams that eventually just
become not this one, but all of the other streams
that I do where I'm just doing debate reviews and
that sort of stuff, they are going to be members only.
Speaker 3: So Cole Marshall for.
Speaker 1: Two bucks says thank you for talking with me and
DMS much love nowhere as Cole is an interesting chat.
Jimmy min five bucks says, cheers, Jake, I caught Jay
and Jimbob's discussion on Mormonism complete with animation.
Speaker 3: What was that?
Speaker 2: Jay? Well, I had had a few Mormons call in
on recent open debate sessions, and Jim Bob had an
idea to just do a deep dive on it, and
we did about a four hour string the other day
and it was a lot of fun. We had a
good I think I think we pretty much completely showed
the I mean, speaking of Gnosticism, I mean Mormonism is
very influenced by Gnoscissism, so a lot of weird stuff
in that cult.
Speaker 1: Joel Dalton for five bucks says, question for Jay, did
the Hebrews take some of their stories from the Babylonians
while in captivity?
Speaker 2: This is a little nuanced question. I would say that
in terms of the Bible, in the way that Christians
view the Bible, we don't believe that what's in divine
revelation in the Bible is Babylonian captivity stories but or pervert.
But in Jeremiah, Jeremiah says in his day in the
Babylonian captivity that there were scribes who were already beginning
to pervert the message and the truth. It doesn't say
that the texts were altered just as they were perverting
the truth. The pen says, the pen of the scribe
is lying. And so by the time of Christ you
have the same rebuke of the Pharisees for these rabbinic
traditions that were supplanting the word of God as Jesus
in Matthew twenty three, that's what develops into the Talmud
in the fourth fifth, sixth century. That's the Babylonian Talmud,
for example. So I would say that, yeah, there are
traditions in Rabbinic Judaism that do perhaps derive from Babylonian captivity.
But for Orthodox Christians, when we cite the Book of
Hebrews or Jeremiah or Isaiah, we don't believe that that
is a Talmudic perversion.
Speaker 3: Gotcha.
Speaker 1: And this is actually a good question here from Michael
fits for two Canadian dollars, which I mean is probably
five cents, Jay, how do you differentiate myth from history?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess it depends ultimately on your basic presubpositions.
I mean, if you believe in Vine revelation, if you're
an Orthodox Christian, that's your governing set of presubpositions. That
will kind of dictate what you do and don't accept.
So if it's in divine revelation for us as Orthodox,
we would consider that normative and true. Anything outside of
that is fair game. Who knows. But I also think
that we do have God did give us reasoning faculties
and you know, the ability to think things through and
you know, to be able to suss out you know,
superstition from you know, real valid spiritual practice. So I
guess the case by case basis, but my governing presuppositions
are going to determine some of that.
Speaker 1: And also in a way like myth is a part
of history as well, and we're not really as in
touch these days with the way that ancients communicate, And yeah,
I think that they kind of did use myths to
tell deeper truths in a way.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Radl Sneak TV gifted five memberships, so very generous from
Radl Sneak TV. A new member in Mud. Good to
see you becoming a member. Mud got the last question here, guys,
last chance if you wanted to ask anything, this is
going to be the last one otherwise, So Mud for
ten buck says, can we get a quick prayer for
jim Bob, not because he's traveling, but because he will
most likely be exposed for having shoulders narrow than most
of the girls on the Weever podcast on Sunday. So
prayers going, prayers going out to Gah.
Speaker 2: We'll pray for Jimbob's shoulders. Maybe we can get him
in some shoulder pads or like a yeah, in nineties
double breasted sport code or something.
Speaker 1: I didn't actually know that Jimbob was going going on whatever,
but that'll be He's My prediction for that is that
Jimbob just going to lose his temper. I'm telling you,
from the outside, it looks like it looks like, you know,
just a regular conversation, but it's infuriating when you're in
there and you're having these conversations with brick walls, and
when you're having these people who just constantly gaslight you,
and then what you don't see on camera is that
like oftentimes they're rolling their eyes and slouching and putting
their face on the microphone like that when they're not
getting attention is absolutely infuriating.
Speaker 2: So well, I enjoyed you and Jimbob debating not so
erudite and that feminist veteran guy. That was a hilarious debate.
I had a lot of fun. Why how watch the
whole thing. It was a blast. I'm trying to get
not so aerudite to do a debate with me. She
said that she would set it up on whatever as well,
so maybe I can have the same experience. We'll see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll say about that because she pulled out
from my debate the other day. Well meant duo one
on one, and I'm pissed off about it.
Speaker 2: Well, she did the same thing original Originally, I said,
why don't you come on my channel, let's have the
same debate that you had with Jake and Jimbob, And
she said, yeah, I'll do that, and then she said, no,
I can't. Let's do it on whatever. Okay, sure, whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And last one here from Michael fits for two
bucks another five cents.
Speaker 3: You didn't mention science. What is science?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: What is science? Jay?
Speaker 2: Science is perhaps well the word science means knowledge, I
mean to know something, but ciantia. But the scientific method
is a tool for studying the natural world, which I
definitely believe in. But I also think it has limitations,
so you know, it can't. It can't tell you the why,
but it can tell you the how in some cases.
Speaker 1: Right Tech twenty three to five bucks is here? Hey,
j what is the deal with Mormons and Sasquatch? How
is it related to Gideon and Canaanites?
Speaker 2: So I didn't know this, but apparently one of the
Mormon prophets they believe that they have kind of an
ongoing succession of living apostle prophets that run the church.
One of the more recent ones, some decades ago, believed
and posited that Sasquatch is Caine from the Book of Genesis.
How that relates to Gideon, I'm not sure, but Canaanites,
I guess relate to Cain. And so apparently their bigfoot
is part of Mormon theology.
Speaker 1: Well, you just never know what the Mormons are going
to bring out. Really, that's fascinating, Yeah, Sasquatch?
Speaker 3: All right? Well, Jay, thank you.
Speaker 1: I always appreciate your time, man, And if anybody is
watching it and wants to go and absolutely get lost
in a wormhole, then Jay's channel is the place to go.
So thanks again for the jumping on with me, man,
and I'll see you very soon. Once when when's your
when's your like seft release of people coming out?
Speaker 2: It looks it's looking like it's quicker than we thought,
you know, the publisher said July to September. But he's
already further on in the second draft, so I would
I would venture to say maybe even a month or two.
Speaker 1: All right, dude, Well, as soon as it's got like
a pre order or whatever, then we'll jump back on
and we'll talk all that esoteriy Hollywood.
Speaker 2: Definitely. Man, thanks for having me. It was a good chat,
all right.
Speaker 3: See a load of you guys, have a good day.