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<v Speaker 1>Hey, everyone, Welcome to episode two hundred and fifty four

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<v Speaker 1>of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave

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<v Speaker 1>Park and our guest on tonight's show is former CIA

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<v Speaker 1>officer Louis Rudaph You guys missed the pre conversation that

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<v Speaker 1>we just had about the Roman Empire and ancient Greece.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe we'll get back into that one. But Lewis served

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<v Speaker 1>as the head of Operations in Iraq, chief of station

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<v Speaker 1>in New Delhi, lots of assignments in Central and South America.

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<v Speaker 1>Was there for the invasion of Grenada. I mean, a

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<v Speaker 1>very extensive career at Central Intelligence. And Lewis, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>so much for joining us tonight.

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<v Speaker 2>My pleasure, thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm going to hit you up right off the bat.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us about you know, where you grew up, how

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<v Speaker 1>you grew up, and how that took you towards the CIA.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, that's a story. I was born in Cuba. We

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<v Speaker 2>had to flee immediately after the Bay of Pigs, and

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<v Speaker 2>we ended up in Miami for a while. And there's

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<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of detail.

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<v Speaker 3>In the Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry to interrupt, but when you say I had

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<v Speaker 1>to or or your family had to flee right after

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<v Speaker 1>the Bay of Pigs. It sounds as if maybe you

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<v Speaker 1>had family members who were involved.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I had. My father and an uncle were

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<v Speaker 2>involved in what passed for the anti Castro underground on

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<v Speaker 2>island in Cuba, and the whole Bay of Pigs invasion

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<v Speaker 2>had been compromised from the get go. My father and

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<v Speaker 2>uncle were going home after work one day and some

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<v Speaker 2>women from the town they lived in right outside Havana

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<v Speaker 2>came running up and said, don't go back into town.

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<v Speaker 2>They were arresting all the men. They know what's coming.

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<v Speaker 2>So they spent the night at the cemetery and then

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<v Speaker 2>got refuge in the Brazilian embassy. After a few months

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<v Speaker 2>they let him go and they landed in Mexico, and

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<v Speaker 2>interestingly enough, at the foot of the stairs that they

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<v Speaker 2>came off the plane was a State Department councilor officer

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<v Speaker 2>from the US embassy and said, would you guys like

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<v Speaker 2>to go to the United States? And they said yes,

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<v Speaker 2>and there we were sit up there. Moved to New York.

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in an extremely anti communist household, as

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<v Speaker 2>you can imagine, with a sense that not only were

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<v Speaker 2>we engaged in a life or death struggle against communism.

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<v Speaker 2>But we owed the US a lot for having taken

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<v Speaker 2>a sin. I think every every male member the family

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<v Speaker 2>volunteered for the military got when they got asylum in

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<v Speaker 2>the US. And so I grew up with that sense

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<v Speaker 2>of I owe the country and we really are in

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<v Speaker 2>a struggle that if we lose, we're screwed. So I

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<v Speaker 2>thought of, you know, what I want to do, and

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<v Speaker 2>the agency offered that. And it also offered the ability

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<v Speaker 2>to pick up and move, move every two or three years.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I get bored easily, and it's it's hard

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<v Speaker 2>to stay at the same job or the same place

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<v Speaker 2>for long. Uh. And the agency offered to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a young guy. They offered adventure and excitement. So I joined.

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<v Speaker 1>Where did when did the idea? I mean, I understand

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<v Speaker 1>the motivation now when you describe it, like when did

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<v Speaker 1>this sort of come up on your radar? I ticket

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<v Speaker 1>when you were in college, did you interface with like

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<v Speaker 1>an agency recruiter.

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<v Speaker 2>That's very precent of you. Yes, I had a Russian

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<v Speaker 2>history professor who looks as a spin image of Teddy Roosevelt,

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<v Speaker 2>and uh he he sort of suggested and directed me

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<v Speaker 2>toward you know, I might be might be interested in

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of work in this this field. Uh, And

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<v Speaker 2>I spect he might have been spotting for the agency.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I can't say, but he steered me.

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<v Speaker 2>And in my senior year, I applied, knowing that the

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<v Speaker 2>process took a while. Usually it takes about a year

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<v Speaker 2>just to get in. And I remember having received a

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<v Speaker 2>letter from the agency and it scheduled an appointment for

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<v Speaker 2>me at the Federal Office building at that time at

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<v Speaker 2>the World Trade Center for an interview. And I went

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<v Speaker 2>down there dutifully. You know, the interview was at two

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<v Speaker 2>o'clock in the afternoon. I got there early, and I

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't find the office it was. You know, I had

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<v Speaker 2>a number, and I kept looking. There was no number.

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't find it. For the life I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>was now at this point, I was late, and so

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<v Speaker 2>in desperation, I walk into a nearby office, which is

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<v Speaker 2>the Wildlife Licensing office where they give you the fishing

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<v Speaker 2>license and all this kind of stuff. And I asked

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<v Speaker 2>the lady behind the counter, I said, look, I'm looking

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<v Speaker 2>for room whatever. It was two twenty one. She goes, oh, sweetheart,

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<v Speaker 2>you want the CIA. Yeah, there in the office between

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<v Speaker 2>the the broom closet and the bathroom and and I

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<v Speaker 2>walked down there and there's this little door with a

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<v Speaker 2>tiny little number and a peep hole. And that was

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<v Speaker 2>my introduction to the agency. I went in there for

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<v Speaker 2>the interview, and the process took about a year before

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<v Speaker 2>I got the the Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>What was that part of the test to see whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not you can find the door?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't. I don't. I don't think it was because

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<v Speaker 2>the guy was kind of annoyed that I was, that

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<v Speaker 2>I was late. He had other people to talk to. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's it's you know, it's one of the things

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<v Speaker 2>we found about the agency. Uh. The quirkiness is sort

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<v Speaker 2>of a nice way to put it. There's some there's

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<v Speaker 2>some oddities that seemed to work across purposes to what

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<v Speaker 2>they want to accomplish.

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<v Speaker 4>We talked to Rick Prato, also another Cuban American, about this.

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<v Speaker 4>What about sort of the staunch anti communist you know,

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<v Speaker 4>the Cuban Americans? What was there was that represented pretty

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<v Speaker 4>well in the agency.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's you know, it's probably an exaggeration, but there

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<v Speaker 2>is a sort of quasi Cuban mafia, uh in the

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<v Speaker 2>agency specifically working Latin America. I knew a lot of people, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>and who were Cubans and had joined the agency. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's the egg. The Cuban exiles were staunchly

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<v Speaker 2>anti communists. Uh, true believers. You know. My father used

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<v Speaker 2>to tell me, look, you know they got they got

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<v Speaker 2>a name on our names on a list, and if

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<v Speaker 2>if the US loses this struggle, we're all going to

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<v Speaker 2>get lined up against the wall and shut. And so

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<v Speaker 2>there was that that deep belief that this was a

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<v Speaker 2>life or death struggle, and a lot of them joined

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<v Speaker 2>because they wanted they wanted to fight back.

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<v Speaker 1>And tell us about you know, when you show up

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<v Speaker 1>at the farm in your training, like what year was this,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know how what was your thoughts about you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the farm and in that experience, if you have any

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<v Speaker 1>any memories that stand out for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well memories Jesus. You know, George Washington was president

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<v Speaker 2>when I went down to the farm, it.

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<v Speaker 3>Was still a farm.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Uh, it's it's an interesting place. Yeah, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>really it's a very well run program, I have to say.

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<v Speaker 2>And at one point in my career I ran the program,

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<v Speaker 2>the Field trade Craft course, and as a student I

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<v Speaker 2>found The training logical and at times very challenging. It

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<v Speaker 2>is meant to build up, to start slow, get you acclimatized,

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<v Speaker 2>get you used to it, and as it builds and builds,

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<v Speaker 2>a pressure starts amount until you near the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the training and you're thinking, you know, shit, I hope,

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<v Speaker 2>I hope my job is not going to be like

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<v Speaker 2>this for the rest of my life because you're you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's like a lot of those those kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>training you're functioning on on four hours. Uh it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It is not designed to weed people out. Uh. It

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<v Speaker 2>is designed to train you. Uh. It does have it

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<v Speaker 2>does weed people out, but again that they don't They're

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<v Speaker 2>not there to harass you and break you and do this,

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<v Speaker 2>but they are there to test you. Uh. And all

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<v Speaker 2>the instructors function under the understanding that sometime in the

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<v Speaker 2>future you will work for me or with me, and

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<v Speaker 2>I have to understand that I want you there, right

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<v Speaker 2>and and uh an interesting story which is really has

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<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with all this farm. Uh hm. At

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the farm, like like most places, you

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<v Speaker 2>you put in your wishliped and you put in the

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<v Speaker 2>top three areas you want to go work for Africa,

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<v Speaker 2>Latin America, Europe where and they have a thing they

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<v Speaker 2>call Division Night on a Sunday night. Every each weekend.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a different area. Division. Latin America Division will come

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<v Speaker 2>down one night. Europe Division will come down and they

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<v Speaker 2>bring a team of people and they give you a

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<v Speaker 2>dog and pony show and explain to you why you

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<v Speaker 2>want to come and work for my division. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>one of the things that left me an impression. I

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<v Speaker 2>remember two presentations. I remember the presentation from Africa Division

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<v Speaker 2>because they brought a team that had just returned from

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<v Speaker 2>the field. Most of them look like they had died

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<v Speaker 2>in the field, they had suffered from dysentery, malaria, typhoi whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>and spent an inordinate amount of time talking about how

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful the metavac facilities were and how they blew you

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<v Speaker 2>out and they let you bring all this food because

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<v Speaker 2>you couldn't get this food, and you could walk barefoot

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<v Speaker 2>because these weavils would go up your feet, and all

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of stuff. And I thought, never, no, thank

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<v Speaker 2>you very much. And then what was se Soviet and

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<v Speaker 2>East European Division Night came and this gets into you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the anti communist thinking and the chief that division went

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<v Speaker 2>down into the arena, the auditorium and gave his presentation,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was one sentence. He said, the CIA exists

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<v Speaker 2>because the Soviet Union can wipe the United States off

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<v Speaker 2>to faith the earth in twenty minutes, any questions, and

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<v Speaker 2>that encapsulated in a nutshell. While we were here. It

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<v Speaker 2>was at least for us, we believed it wasn't the

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<v Speaker 2>fence of the United States because we had a foe

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<v Speaker 2>that can destroy us. And that left an incredible impression

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<v Speaker 2>on me.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's the CIA's job to prevent strategic surprise.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and so you know that was it. That's where

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to go. I wound up in Latin America

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<v Speaker 2>because we were fighting the wars in Central America and

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<v Speaker 2>like most places, they had a draft on they were

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to take half the class. Yeah, I mean Tagusigappa,

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<v Speaker 2>Honduras was the largest station in the world at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, this is like nineteen eighty five six.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah yeah, let me see, I got a eighty three.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, yeah, we were right macdeb in the middle

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<v Speaker 2>counter insurgency in Guatemala and Salvador insurgency in Nicaragua, and

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<v Speaker 2>plus we had all the other programs in Afghanistan and

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<v Speaker 2>gold and everything. So the agency was hopping and what

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<v Speaker 2>they had done at the time. In addition to the

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<v Speaker 2>operations course, which runs a little over four months, because

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<v Speaker 2>the agency was managing so many COPD action program they

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<v Speaker 2>felt that the case officers, the operations officers, should understand

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<v Speaker 2>and POWA military operations. So they ran us through a

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<v Speaker 2>four month paramilitary course. It was good and was bad.

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<v Speaker 2>It was bad because it came after four months of

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<v Speaker 2>being down there and then they turn you around and

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<v Speaker 2>bring you down to another four months and you just

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<v Speaker 2>really don't want to go there. But it was great,

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<v Speaker 2>let me tell you it was. It was splendiferous.

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<v Speaker 1>You got a couple it was then uh huh, you

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<v Speaker 1>got a couple jumps in.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and that just that. They had an armory

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<v Speaker 2>in the back that had weapons from WAW two on.

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<v Speaker 2>I got to fire MP forty's, car ninety eight k's

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<v Speaker 2>and every other kind of weapon you can imagine. Light

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<v Speaker 2>machine guns, heavy machine guns, mortars, rocket launchers, we get

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<v Speaker 2>air operations, maritime uper It was you know, if it

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<v Speaker 2>was for the fact that you were gone for another

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<v Speaker 2>four months, it was. It was a blast. But everybody

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<v Speaker 2>got a lot of paramilitary experience at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I want to ask you about Central America, but

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<v Speaker 1>before we get to that, I want to ask you

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<v Speaker 1>about the nineteen eighty three invasion of Grenada in your

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<v Speaker 1>role there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I had been overseas at that point for three

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<v Speaker 2>months and I was home and I got a phone

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<v Speaker 2>call one night about ten o'clock from the secretary at

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<v Speaker 2>the office asking if I could come in. So I

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<v Speaker 2>went in final Okay, showed up and the chief was

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<v Speaker 2>there and he handed me a ticket and said, you're

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<v Speaker 2>flying out to Barbados tomorrow. We're invading Grenada. Okay, my

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<v Speaker 2>first invasion. Do I hate to bring anything? Well, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, but bring your soup, just like Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll be a very well dressed invader. And I got there.

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<v Speaker 2>Somebody met me at the airport. They took me and

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, we're going to fly you in that night.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was I think it was emblematic of a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of experiences I had with the agency that it

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<v Speaker 2>is small, inelegant, but gets the job done. And so

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<v Speaker 2>these guys said, we're going to take you to the airport,

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to fly you to Grenada, and we were

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<v Speaker 2>driving down toward the airport and I noticed we missed

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<v Speaker 2>the two exits to the airport, and I said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>we just we just missed the exits. No, no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not going there. And we pull up to the

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<v Speaker 2>back of the airport by the chain link fence and

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<v Speaker 2>there's a hole cut into the fence. Because go through

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<v Speaker 2>the hole. See that plane there with no lights on.

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<v Speaker 2>That's ours. Get on that plane and we get on

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<v Speaker 2>the I get on the plane and you take off.

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<v Speaker 2>There's no there's no lights, there's nothing, totally blacked out,

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<v Speaker 2>and we're flying over Grenada. And the guy, the crew chief,

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<v Speaker 2>hands me envygs and it says, take a look. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know, remember this was my first time it never

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<v Speaker 2>been in the military anything. And I put my the

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<v Speaker 2>MVGS on. I looked down and tracers are going back

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<v Speaker 2>and forth and bombs are going and the US is

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<v Speaker 2>just blowing the ship out of the place. And I'm thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>that's going to be wasted on this thing. Uh. And

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<v Speaker 2>I spent the next two weeks debriefing, uh, you know, exploitation,

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<v Speaker 2>finding documents and things in whatever where they were located,

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<v Speaker 2>and living kind of kind of rough in a in

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<v Speaker 2>a house with sixty guys, but it was it was interesting.

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<v Speaker 4>Did they did they tell you what your mission was,

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<v Speaker 4>what what they wanted, what information they wanted you to find,

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<v Speaker 4>or was it just go see what you can get?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was a lot of the stuff is it's

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<v Speaker 2>on the fly, you know, and this is this is

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<v Speaker 2>clearly to military operation. The military has its its mission

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<v Speaker 2>and whatever, and we're sort of there to to support

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<v Speaker 2>that and support US policy. And US policy was find

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<v Speaker 2>whatever you can get your hands on. From the agency's

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<v Speaker 2>point of view, there was a Cuban presence. Uh, So

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<v Speaker 2>our goal was to find out anything we could about

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<v Speaker 2>the Cubans. Who were they, what did they have, what

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<v Speaker 2>their intentions were, what their capabilities had been. Uh. We

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<v Speaker 2>were trying to find out the details of what had

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<v Speaker 2>happened because you know, remember they've had they had a

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<v Speaker 2>socialist slash communist revolution and then they had had a

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<v Speaker 2>counter revolution where they killed Maurice Bishop who was a

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<v Speaker 2>prime minister and were taking over. And we did not

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<v Speaker 2>know whether that was a genuine, uh internal movement, whether

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<v Speaker 2>that had been directed by the Cubans or the Soviets.

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<v Speaker 2>We need to find out what the intents they were

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<v Speaker 2>building this airport in Grenada that would have handled the

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<v Speaker 2>largest Soviet transport aircraft. So we wanted to know was

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<v Speaker 2>that indeed the intent were they going to use that

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<v Speaker 2>as a launch point. So we were looking, we were

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<v Speaker 2>looking for stuff and whatever we get our hands on.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you find any evidence of you know, Soviet or

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<v Speaker 1>malign you know, communist influence and Grenada as you're doing

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<v Speaker 1>your job out there, Yeah, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, it's It's one of the things I have learned

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<v Speaker 2>through my almost thirty year career. Just like beauty is

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<v Speaker 2>in the eye of the beholder, malign is in the

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<v Speaker 2>eye of the beholder. Yeah, there was communist influence. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>the Cubans were there. The Grenadians wanted them to be

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<v Speaker 2>there to help them because nobody else was going to

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<v Speaker 2>help them, so they thought, you know, they could help

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<v Speaker 2>with this that We didn't find any hard evidence that

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<v Speaker 2>the Russians or the Cubans were going to use Grenada

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<v Speaker 2>as a jump off point to some larger nefarious plot.

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<v Speaker 2>They were sort of like, you know, reacting like the US. Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>here's an opportunity, let's take advantage of it. See what

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<v Speaker 2>comes out of this. But there was no overarching plan

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<v Speaker 2>the Cuban presence. You know, everybody was, oh, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>Cuban combat troops. Yeah, no, there really wasn't. There's about

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<v Speaker 2>thirty five Cuban military advisors because they were trying to

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<v Speaker 2>build a Grenadian military and the rest were Cuban construction units. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like all Cubans, they were trained as a

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<v Speaker 2>paramilitary force, a reserve force. They all knew how to

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<v Speaker 2>use an AK forty seven. That was about it. I

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00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:43.400
<v Speaker 2>talked to these guys, and you know, they were pure

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<v Speaker 2>construction workers and wanted nothing more than to get the

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<v Speaker 2>hell out of there because they went in there. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a bulldozer operator, I pour concrete, I do this.

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<v Speaker 2>Have you been trained the military, Well, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>get two weeks a year how to fire in AK. Yeah. Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So it wasn't the threat that it was brought out

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<v Speaker 2>to be, but it was a potential long term threat,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's one of the things that we looked at.

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<v Speaker 2>It's you know, today, it's not a problem, but next

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<v Speaker 2>week you never know.

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<v Speaker 3>So how how long have you been on the job

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<v Speaker 3>at this point?

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<v Speaker 2>I think six months?

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<v Speaker 3>Six months? Yea, How was it for you?

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<v Speaker 4>Because I don't know when if you had interacted much

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<v Speaker 4>with the military prior to this, But how was it

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<v Speaker 4>for you to be kind of thrown in this environment

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<v Speaker 4>and now interfacing with the military wanting to, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>to to debrief their you know, their pow stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I did my first time really dealing with the military.

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<v Speaker 2>I've done that extensively throughout my career. Uh. And I

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<v Speaker 2>gotta tell you, it's it's it's it's great. I've never

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00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.920
<v Speaker 2>had any problems dealing with the military. Uh. It is.

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<v Speaker 2>The military speaks a very different language than we do.

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<v Speaker 2>H and they look at things slightly different. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, their their goal is to is to destroy things.

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<v Speaker 2>Our goal is to sort of just not be seen

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<v Speaker 2>and go and move around. But our objectives are pretty

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<v Speaker 2>much the same and they sort of go hand in hand.

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<v Speaker 2>I enjoyed it. I found the US military to be professional, direct. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we all have our assholes, no doubt about it. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're human beings. But overall, it was it was great.

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<v Speaker 2>They were very supportive of us. We did what they

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<v Speaker 2>needed us to do for them. It was good.

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<v Speaker 1>And while we're at it, please also consider supporting the

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00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.200
<v Speaker 1>show there's a link to our Patreon down the description.

348
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.519
<v Speaker 1>If you subscribe to us, you get all these episodes

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<v Speaker 1>ad free. And we really appreciate all of our supporters

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<v Speaker 1>out there. So Lewis, I apologize for the for the interruption.

351
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<v Speaker 1>I think I'd like to jump off, if it's okay,

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<v Speaker 1>on sort of a larger conversation about your time in

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<v Speaker 1>Central and South America, if we were to move a

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<v Speaker 1>little further forward, or let's say, from eighty three into

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<v Speaker 1>the into the mid to late eighties. You know, it's controversial.

356
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<v Speaker 1>The Contras were not a perfect partner for us, for

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<v Speaker 1>the United States. But at the same time, Daniel Lrdego

358
00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:29.039
<v Speaker 1>is going to Moscow and receiving Soviet military aid, which

359
00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.039
<v Speaker 1>got the United States involved in the in the conflict

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<v Speaker 1>in Nicaragua. Could you tell us a little bit about

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<v Speaker 1>your perspective and what you experienced while you were down there.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm still processing the Breakfast for Life Free. Well yeah, sure, Ah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know it's I do think about Central America somewhat

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<v Speaker 2>often nowadays. Uh, and it's it's it's one of those

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<v Speaker 2>very difficult subjects.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Sandinistas, uh and the Salvador fmlen were communists, Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>they were hell bent on installing communist regimesh Yet at

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<v Speaker 2>the same time, we were supporting regimes that were brutal

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<v Speaker 2>and killed their own people and slaughtered and tortured and

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<v Speaker 2>and trying to put myself in the shoes of of

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<v Speaker 2>everyday Central Americans. And it's and it's one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things I think that case officers try to do is

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<v Speaker 2>to understand all the different sides and necessarily agree with them,

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<v Speaker 2>but you have to understand, uh, what their thought process is.

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<v Speaker 2>You're facing a choice of I have a government now

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<v Speaker 2>that is pretty much oppressing and trying to kill me,

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<v Speaker 2>versus the government's gonna come in and oppress me and

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<v Speaker 2>trying to kill me, right, and a lot of these people,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, were we're taking the choice of, well, I'd

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<v Speaker 2>rather get the ones that are coming in to kill me,

382
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<v Speaker 2>because I know these guys have killed me and my

383
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:26.279
<v Speaker 2>family and this kind of stuff, and I want revenge.

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<v Speaker 2>We were not we were not helping ourselves to drum

385
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<v Speaker 2>up support against the fml N or the Saint Denistas

386
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:40.319
<v Speaker 2>by supporting regimes that would be no better than what

387
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:43.960
<v Speaker 2>we're going to come in. And we were not offering

388
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:49.559
<v Speaker 2>the people a real choice. It was you can you

389
00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.160
<v Speaker 2>can have hell or you can have hell. Take your

390
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:57.440
<v Speaker 2>choice instead of you know, eventually we got around to

391
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.759
<v Speaker 2>giving Salvador some degree of of democracy where they eventually

392
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:04.559
<v Speaker 2>had a free and fair election. But I think it

393
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.359
<v Speaker 2>would have gone better for us if if we did

394
00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:13.039
<v Speaker 2>that from the get go. There was in a I'll

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<v Speaker 2>give you an example of one of the things that

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<v Speaker 2>I did admire about the other side. And they worked

397
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:27.720
<v Speaker 2>their insurgency much more different than we did. We took

398
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:31.079
<v Speaker 2>the contras and you know, we created this, and we

399
00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:35.440
<v Speaker 2>we equipped them, we managed them, we did all this stuff.

400
00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:41.839
<v Speaker 2>The Cubans were faced with five different insurgent groups and

401
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.359
<v Speaker 2>the Cuban attitude and what they told them was, okay,

402
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:50.480
<v Speaker 2>here's two things. We will give you. Aid if you,

403
00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:53.359
<v Speaker 2>as an insurgent group, can survive on your own for

404
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:56.880
<v Speaker 2>two years, and that way what they were doing is

405
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:01.000
<v Speaker 2>this becomes a viable group. It's not something we're imposing.

406
00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:04.440
<v Speaker 2>They can survive their viables that will support them. And two,

407
00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:08.160
<v Speaker 2>we will support you if you join the Umbrella organization.

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<v Speaker 2>If you don't, we'll make sure you don't get you

409
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:13.920
<v Speaker 2>starved of everything, and we'll crush you but if you

410
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.359
<v Speaker 2>come into the umbrella you have survived, then we'll help you.

411
00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:24.440
<v Speaker 2>And and they created they helped create viable, sustainable organizations.

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<v Speaker 2>We created groups that could not survive without us and

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<v Speaker 2>who had a hard time developed being the support among

414
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.160
<v Speaker 2>the population because they were, you know, they were viewed

415
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<v Speaker 2>as as alien, these guys, these American tools.

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<v Speaker 1>They had bourgeois leadership that was hanging out in Miami exactly.

417
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<v Speaker 2>And it's not like the fml L leadership was any better.

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<v Speaker 2>They're all, you know, sitting in Mexico or Havana and

419
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.599
<v Speaker 2>not living hard. But the fact that they have sustained

420
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.440
<v Speaker 2>themselves over time and they had to live among the

421
00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:03.240
<v Speaker 2>people gave them a degree of cachet among the population,

422
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.640
<v Speaker 2>which made it easier for them and harder for us.

423
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:09.640
<v Speaker 1>What can you tell us about your own experiences down there?

424
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:11.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you mentioned you did a couple of trips

425
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:12.720
<v Speaker 1>down to Guatemala.

426
00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:15.400
<v Speaker 2>I was I was a signed I did Guatemala for

427
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:23.279
<v Speaker 2>about five years. Yeah, uh, you know, it's I like

428
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:33.279
<v Speaker 2>the country. I enjoyed my time there. I have to say,

429
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:36.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a point where you start to realize

430
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:45.440
<v Speaker 2>you are supporting a horrendously brutal regime. Ah, you know

431
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:51.400
<v Speaker 2>it was. I gotta tell you it was. There was

432
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:53.799
<v Speaker 2>a part of Guatemala this and this was before I

433
00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:56.079
<v Speaker 2>got there, And this is a story I had been

434
00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.000
<v Speaker 2>told by guatemalas Uh. There was there was an insurgery

435
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.519
<v Speaker 2>insurgency operating in the Patent, which is one of the

436
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:08.799
<v Speaker 2>regions in Guatemala, and the zone commander in the p

437
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:13.000
<v Speaker 2>ten had offered a bounty fifty dollars was a lot

438
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:17.559
<v Speaker 2>of money then in Guatemala for each pair of ears

439
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:23.839
<v Speaker 2>belonging to gorillas that you brought back. They brought back

440
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:29.880
<v Speaker 2>three thousand pairs of ears. The insurgent group was estimated

441
00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:35.400
<v Speaker 2>at one hundred and fifty. And you have to ask yourself,

442
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:40.039
<v Speaker 2>what are we doing? Right? Yeah, right, we are not

443
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.000
<v Speaker 2>going to win these people over, and we're you know,

444
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:45.960
<v Speaker 2>you can stand in the halls of Congress and spout

445
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson and democracy and shit, but you get down there

446
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:52.480
<v Speaker 2>and that's not what's going on. And the people know that,

447
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:55.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, they they may be uneducated peasants, but you

448
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:59.200
<v Speaker 2>can't fool them. They see exactly what's going on. And

449
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:02.480
<v Speaker 2>you start looking and say this is this is a

450
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:05.599
<v Speaker 2>no win situation for us. We have we have chosen

451
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:06.599
<v Speaker 2>the wrong side.

452
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.359
<v Speaker 1>I sense, and correct me if I'm wrong, lewis that

453
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:15.119
<v Speaker 1>you're excuse me, your heritage is you know, being a

454
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:20.200
<v Speaker 1>devout anti communist a little bit conflicting with your values

455
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:24.119
<v Speaker 1>as an American. And I think that, and I mean,

456
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.160
<v Speaker 1>I want you to hear your opinion, but I mean,

457
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.880
<v Speaker 1>I think that conflict there really is, you know, that

458
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:33.640
<v Speaker 1>defines the nature of our presence in Central America at

459
00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:36.319
<v Speaker 1>the time, This conflict between these two, these two values.

460
00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's yeah, it's I can be as as as ruthless,

461
00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:49.880
<v Speaker 2>as amoral as an ex guy. Yeah. And uh, if

462
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.359
<v Speaker 2>I look at it coldly leaving leaving those issues aside,

463
00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:56.880
<v Speaker 2>it strikes me as a no win situation.

464
00:28:57.279 --> 00:28:58.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

465
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:01.400
<v Speaker 2>And and we are we are digging a hole for

466
00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:04.079
<v Speaker 2>ourselves that we don't need to dig and we shouldn't

467
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.319
<v Speaker 2>be in. If you bring the moral aspects in it,

468
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:12.119
<v Speaker 2>it's like, okay, you know, it's something that the US

469
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:17.319
<v Speaker 2>has struggled with, right for decades. Right now, at the

470
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:20.440
<v Speaker 2>end of the day, I believe for all the faults

471
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:24.079
<v Speaker 2>we have, and we have many, uh, the fact that

472
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:27.480
<v Speaker 2>the US exists is one of the reasons this, this

473
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:29.599
<v Speaker 2>world hasn't turned into a bigger pile of shit than

474
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:33.000
<v Speaker 2>it is now. Uh. And you know, I'll tell you.

475
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:35.599
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you a story. There was two Egyptian journalists

476
00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:39.880
<v Speaker 2>talking when the US invaded Iraq, and and one turned

477
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:41.759
<v Speaker 2>to the other and said, oh my god, what are

478
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:44.680
<v Speaker 2>going to do? The Americans are just they're out of control.

479
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.039
<v Speaker 2>They're bombing everywhere, they're invading everywhere. What do we do?

480
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:49.519
<v Speaker 2>And the other one turn said, we do what we

481
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.000
<v Speaker 2>always do. We wait till the Americans fixed themselves and

482
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.759
<v Speaker 2>and and for me, that's always been the thing. Eventually

483
00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:58.240
<v Speaker 2>we will look and say, okay, this is not this

484
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:00.200
<v Speaker 2>is not the way to go, and we try to

485
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:03.559
<v Speaker 2>do we try to do better. Unlike a lot of

486
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:05.920
<v Speaker 2>other countries where they sit there and they look at

487
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:07.680
<v Speaker 2>the look at the Russians in the Ukraine, they're just

488
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>going to dig themselves in and they're never just just

489
00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:12.359
<v Speaker 2>gonna walk away. We'll look and say, okay, this is

490
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.480
<v Speaker 2>not the right way to go. Uh. But that haven't

491
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:21.640
<v Speaker 2>been said. You know, we we have chosen sides in

492
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:25.160
<v Speaker 2>battles where you clearly look and say this is a mistake,

493
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:28.039
<v Speaker 2>this is this is not what we are supposed to

494
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:31.359
<v Speaker 2>stand for. Uh. And this is not what's going to

495
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:34.000
<v Speaker 2>give us the victory that we need to stop the

496
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:38.200
<v Speaker 2>other side. Yeah, there's a there's a conflict, and I

497
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:42.640
<v Speaker 2>think anybody who has who has a shred of of

498
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:48.519
<v Speaker 2>has a moral compass, will say, yeah, Okay, I'll do

499
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:51.319
<v Speaker 2>what I gotta do, but this is not the right

500
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:51.839
<v Speaker 2>way to go.

501
00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.319
<v Speaker 1>How did you feel when the elections were held in Nicaragua,

502
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 1>I think it was nineteen eighty nine when the Sandinistas law.

503
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Did you see that as a victory or did you?

504
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:03.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what what was your view of that?

505
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? It was it was a short term, tactical victory.

506
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:07.640
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

507
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.759
<v Speaker 2>I tend I tend to look at things because I

508
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:14.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, I did study history and and I tend

509
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:19.240
<v Speaker 2>to look at things long term. Uh. And I don't

510
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:25.000
<v Speaker 2>think the history and the victory of Central America has

511
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:28.279
<v Speaker 2>been written yet. But I saw the elections where the

512
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:32.319
<v Speaker 2>Sanistras are thrown out as as a victory. But now

513
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:35.079
<v Speaker 2>we're faced with the same thing. The Santinists are in power,

514
00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:38.480
<v Speaker 2>and the Sanisis are not going to let go of power. Uh.

515
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:41.759
<v Speaker 2>And unless something gets done, Uh, you know, they're going

516
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:43.519
<v Speaker 2>to stay in power for as long as they can,

517
00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:46.359
<v Speaker 2>and you could you could see the whole thing repeating itself,

518
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:48.880
<v Speaker 2>and eventually it will be another revolution and someone will

519
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.759
<v Speaker 2>try to oust them. And you know, depending on who's

520
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:54.599
<v Speaker 2>in the White House at the time, you know, do

521
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.119
<v Speaker 2>we get involved, do we not get involved? Let it go.

522
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:00.920
<v Speaker 1>It's it's just it's just like it's a history of

523
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:03.920
<v Speaker 1>personal fiefdoms. And you know, I've had people tell me

524
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:05.880
<v Speaker 1>to this day, if you go down there and you

525
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.400
<v Speaker 1>buy off the right generals, you can do whatever you want.

526
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:12.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, In Guatemala, there were three hundred families that

527
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:18.720
<v Speaker 2>control the country. They they owned all the businesses you

528
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.119
<v Speaker 2>had to deal with them. They owned the land, they

529
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:25.480
<v Speaker 2>owned the farms, and with these people they funded everything.

530
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:30.079
<v Speaker 2>And between them and the twenty or thirty generals who

531
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>ran the military, that was it. That was a power structure.

532
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:36.759
<v Speaker 2>Nobody else had to say in what happened. You know,

533
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:38.160
<v Speaker 2>the CIA gets.

534
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:42.759
<v Speaker 4>Hate sometimes along with like special forces working with indigenous

535
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:44.960
<v Speaker 4>and the sense of like the contrast. You know, it

536
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:50.759
<v Speaker 4>is promoted as these CI run desk squads. But you know,

537
00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:54.359
<v Speaker 4>I would you say that America goes into these situations

538
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.200
<v Speaker 4>sort of with the same repeating sort of naivete.

539
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.799
<v Speaker 3>You know that they see us take a strategic purpose.

540
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:06.880
<v Speaker 4>And they imagine that the people that are against the communists,

541
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:09.920
<v Speaker 4>the bad guys, the terrorists, whomever it is, are by

542
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:12.119
<v Speaker 4>by the very the very nature, going to be the

543
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:12.680
<v Speaker 4>good guys.

544
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:14.160
<v Speaker 3>And that's not always the case.

545
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:18.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's you know, that's a very good question. Uh.

546
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:22.119
<v Speaker 2>And and I could do an entire entire show on

547
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:23.960
<v Speaker 2>that on that issue. Uh.

548
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:25.119
<v Speaker 3>You know.

549
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.200
<v Speaker 2>One of the problems with yeah, we are naive. Uh

550
00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:32.119
<v Speaker 2>and and we are simplistic in our views, like, as

551
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:37.079
<v Speaker 2>you pointed out, communists bad, anybody against them good? No,

552
00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:40.480
<v Speaker 2>not no, there's it's it's we like black and white.

553
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:44.119
<v Speaker 2>We like the movie High Noon and Gary Cooper walking

554
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:46.759
<v Speaker 2>down the street, and they're the bad guys. Life isn't

555
00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:50.920
<v Speaker 2>like that, and it is. It is messy, it is dark. Uh,

556
00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:56.880
<v Speaker 2>there are there are usually other choices, but we tend

557
00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:00.319
<v Speaker 2>to pick the easiest choice. But these guys here, they're

558
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:03.920
<v Speaker 2>anti communists, they're in charge. Let's go with them. Uh.

559
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:07.720
<v Speaker 2>And it's easier because despite the fact that we're democracy,

560
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:12.119
<v Speaker 2>it's a mess dealing with the democracy. Holy shit, I mean,

561
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, you got one policy going the next next year,

562
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.719
<v Speaker 2>there's an election, the policy changes and who's up who's

563
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:20.079
<v Speaker 2>down this kind of thing. Here, we got a dictator

564
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:23.079
<v Speaker 2>and that ain't gonna change. And it makes it easier

565
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:28.440
<v Speaker 2>for US policy. But again that's not necessarily the right

566
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.679
<v Speaker 2>the right way to do it. Uh, to your to

567
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:35.039
<v Speaker 2>your comment about you know, CIA funded desk squads and stuff,

568
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:39.000
<v Speaker 2>it's it's one of my pet peeves.

569
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:39.400
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

570
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:43.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's it's because that idea, you know, oh,

571
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.440
<v Speaker 2>the CIA overthrow this government. The CIA did that is

572
00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:52.920
<v Speaker 2>only partially correct. The more accurate statement is the US

573
00:34:53.079 --> 00:34:56.320
<v Speaker 2>of a over through that government. The CIA doesn't run

574
00:34:56.360 --> 00:34:58.119
<v Speaker 2>around sitting there. You know, we're sitting there on a

575
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.199
<v Speaker 2>Friday afternoon having a few drinks and said hey, let's

576
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:06.519
<v Speaker 2>overthrow the government at the right. Yeah, exactly. It comes

577
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:08.199
<v Speaker 2>down from the White House. And I said, we don't

578
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.679
<v Speaker 2>like this. I mean Chile is a great example. The

579
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:13.159
<v Speaker 2>White House came and said we don't like these guys.

580
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:16.920
<v Speaker 2>And the agency said, you want to come after that.

581
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:20.880
<v Speaker 2>We think it's a bad idea. What comes after them

582
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.519
<v Speaker 2>is going to be worse. And they said we don't care.

583
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:27.039
<v Speaker 2>We want these guys. We want Allende and his crew. Okay,

584
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:29.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, at the end of the day, we salute

585
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:32.800
<v Speaker 2>and we go do the job. But it's it's not

586
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:35.639
<v Speaker 2>a you know, the CIA executes it, but it's not

587
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:38.239
<v Speaker 2>the CIA's policy. It is the White House policy to

588
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:40.880
<v Speaker 2>use government policy. And at the end of the day,

589
00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:45.039
<v Speaker 2>which is something I always say, which probably does not

590
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.400
<v Speaker 2>make me popular, it's the American people's fault. We live

591
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:52.480
<v Speaker 2>in a democracy. You chose these guys. This is what

592
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:55.559
<v Speaker 2>they did. You don't like it, get off your ass

593
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:00.800
<v Speaker 2>and get them out. You know, it's it's we as

594
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:05.039
<v Speaker 2>a people bare degree of responsibility and representative democracy.

595
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:05.719
<v Speaker 3>Right.

596
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:08.320
<v Speaker 1>And this was a topic that would rear its head

597
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:13.159
<v Speaker 1>many years later for you in Iraq, but we'll get

598
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:17.039
<v Speaker 1>to that. But after after Guatemala, I mean, you had

599
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:19.920
<v Speaker 1>some other interesting assignments in like South America. I was

600
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:21.639
<v Speaker 1>wondering if you if you could talk a little bit

601
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:21.960
<v Speaker 1>about that.

602
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:27.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, after you know, after the Central American Wars,

603
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:32.960
<v Speaker 2>narcotics reared it's ugly head. I mean, it's always been there,

604
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:37.519
<v Speaker 2>but it becomes the flavor of the month. And it's

605
00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:40.679
<v Speaker 2>one of the things I've I've noticed that a lot

606
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:47.159
<v Speaker 2>of this stuff is driven by domestic politics, and so

607
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:51.400
<v Speaker 2>if there's you know, some domestic political gain to be had,

608
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:55.400
<v Speaker 2>or there's a problem in the States, it'll eventually start

609
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:58.960
<v Speaker 2>making its way overseas. And that's what happened with narcotics.

610
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:03.360
<v Speaker 2>And then the US government, including the Agency, the State Department,

611
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:10.119
<v Speaker 2>the Defense Department, DA engaged in decades long war against

612
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.920
<v Speaker 2>narcotics cartels, and I spent a lot of time doing

613
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:20.039
<v Speaker 2>that in South America, in Central America, because everything once

614
00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:27.559
<v Speaker 2>the Central American Wars were over, everything shifted toward counter narcotics.

615
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:35.840
<v Speaker 2>Like most government agencies, organizations, private sector stuff, everything moves

616
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:39.559
<v Speaker 2>where the money is, and there was money in counter arcotics.

617
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:43.280
<v Speaker 2>They were dumping billions and everybody got money. Everybody got

618
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:47.639
<v Speaker 2>directed to do this, and so huge programs were created

619
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:53.679
<v Speaker 2>and everybody chased archittists. For me, aunt narcotics was the

620
00:37:53.719 --> 00:38:00.000
<v Speaker 2>most frustrating job I've ever had. You know it is

621
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:05.559
<v Speaker 2>it's a proverbial whack a mole. For every every narcotics

622
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:09.079
<v Speaker 2>organization you dismantle and guys put in jail, there's one

623
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:14.599
<v Speaker 2>hundred people waiting to take their place. There's nothing you

624
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:18.519
<v Speaker 2>can do in that regard. They're willing to die for

625
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:23.039
<v Speaker 2>that kind of money, right, cartels. When I was there,

626
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:26.840
<v Speaker 2>and this was a long time, this was shit. Thirty

627
00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:32.400
<v Speaker 2>years ago, cartels were making profits of one billion dollars

628
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:40.159
<v Speaker 2>a year each. They couldn't process the money. They had rooms,

629
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:45.039
<v Speaker 2>and I'm talking rooms stacked ceiling to floor, wall to

630
00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 2>wall with cash. They just couldn't launder the money fast enough.

631
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:54.719
<v Speaker 2>I went to a DA conference and they had a

632
00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:59.360
<v Speaker 2>narcotics financier who had turned state's evidence of witness protection

633
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:03.679
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing. And he gave a talk and it

634
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:07.800
<v Speaker 2>was the most scary thing I've ever heard. He said,

635
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:15.480
<v Speaker 2>for you to make a dent in our finances, you

636
00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:20.079
<v Speaker 2>have to interdict ninety five percent of the drugs coming

637
00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:23.280
<v Speaker 2>into the US. That's when we start making When we

638
00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:28.800
<v Speaker 2>stopped making a profit, ninety five percent, we were interdicting

639
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:35.000
<v Speaker 2>five percent. And you know, he said, what you guys sees,

640
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:39.079
<v Speaker 2>you sees two tons here, five tons, twenty tons, that's spoilage.

641
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:43.639
<v Speaker 2>That's just the cost of doing business. And you know,

642
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.840
<v Speaker 2>I was in Bolivia and you can buy a kilo

643
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:54.199
<v Speaker 2>of pure cocaine hydrochloride, pure cocaine for nine hundred dollars

644
00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:58.039
<v Speaker 2>a kilo. It was selling in New York for eighteen

645
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.440
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars a kilo at the time. Time just I'm

646
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:05.199
<v Speaker 2>not good at math. Just do the markup. That's a

647
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.840
<v Speaker 2>profit and that's pure. If you cut that thing two

648
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:12.639
<v Speaker 2>or three times, oh my god. So it's It's another

649
00:40:12.679 --> 00:40:15.119
<v Speaker 2>one of these things that frustrates me is you know

650
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:17.480
<v Speaker 2>when when the politicians talked about, well, we're gonna go

651
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:19.599
<v Speaker 2>in and we're gonna bomb Mexico, We're gonna do this,

652
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.519
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna send me It's like, guys, we have been

653
00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:26.199
<v Speaker 2>doing this for decades. Uh. The war on drugs that

654
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:30.000
<v Speaker 2>was fought very quietly in Latin America was no there

655
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:32.840
<v Speaker 2>was no gloves on. I mean we it was you

656
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:35.239
<v Speaker 2>go and do it. And and you know, you you

657
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.800
<v Speaker 2>watch the movie Scicadio. It's like, yeah, I lived that.

658
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.079
<v Speaker 2>That's that's what we're doing. And and and it had

659
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:45.960
<v Speaker 2>zero impact on the drug trade because you're not attacking

660
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:50.960
<v Speaker 2>the root causes the consumption in the United States, the

661
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:55.280
<v Speaker 2>movement of weapons from the US into Mexico, and the

662
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:57.920
<v Speaker 2>laundering of money in US banks who are making a

663
00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:59.239
<v Speaker 2>fortune off this money.

664
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:02.079
<v Speaker 1>The poverty these in the countries where this starts.

665
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, a cop in Mexico makes I don't know,

666
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:10.920
<v Speaker 2>two hundred and fifty bucks a month. Trafficers show up

667
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:14.079
<v Speaker 2>and say, yeah, I'll give you five thousand a month.

668
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:16.760
<v Speaker 2>How can you compete with that?

669
00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:17.280
<v Speaker 1>Right?

670
00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Right? I mean I was I was at a country

671
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:26.920
<v Speaker 2>team meeting where AID Agency for National Development was talking

672
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:31.400
<v Speaker 2>about the Alternative Crop program and how they were they

673
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:35.840
<v Speaker 2>were going to help the farmers who grew coca gonna

674
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:38.639
<v Speaker 2>grow corn or whatever, yeah, and change it into they're

675
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:43.000
<v Speaker 2>gonna make them strawberries. And the reality of life was,

676
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:49.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, picking strawberries. Growing strawberries a backbreaking, labor intensive work,

677
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and at the end of it, they're getting about five

678
00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:55.880
<v Speaker 2>dollars a kilo or something. I mean, I'm not sure

679
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:59.159
<v Speaker 2>what the numbers are, but it's five dollars a kilo cocaine.

680
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:04.639
<v Speaker 2>The coca leaf basically grows wild. You don't have to

681
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:08.280
<v Speaker 2>do much. You plant it and you sit back and

682
00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:10.920
<v Speaker 2>let it grow. Doesn't require a lot of tending. It

683
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:15.920
<v Speaker 2>has two to three growing seasons a year, and you're

684
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:20.599
<v Speaker 2>gonna get five hundred for the kilo of the leaf. Again,

685
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.639
<v Speaker 2>we're we're picking the wrong fight here. You just not

686
00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:25.280
<v Speaker 2>You're not going to get them. I want you to

687
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:27.559
<v Speaker 2>work harder and make less money.

688
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:28.400
<v Speaker 3>Right, right, right?

689
00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:31.119
<v Speaker 4>And it was funny to see that repeated in Afghanistan

690
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:33.480
<v Speaker 4>with poppy fields. Yeah you know, Oh, we'll have them

691
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:35.400
<v Speaker 4>to plant something other than poppy. It's like they're not

692
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:39.559
<v Speaker 4>going to plant something other than poppy. No, why they're

693
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:40.119
<v Speaker 4>not stupid?

694
00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:40.519
<v Speaker 3>You can't.

695
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.199
<v Speaker 2>I mean, which American can you go to and say, hey,

696
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:45.519
<v Speaker 2>I want you to work harder and make less money. Right.

697
00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Nobody's going to buy that deal, right, we expect them

698
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:51.519
<v Speaker 2>to do it. No, it's you know, you you got

699
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:54.280
<v Speaker 2>you get with the problem a different way, because all

700
00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:55.880
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna do is get stuck in another war.

701
00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:58.440
<v Speaker 1>So you you must have been down there during like

702
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:01.639
<v Speaker 1>the bad old days of the Papulo Escobar and all that.

703
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:05.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, any any any war stories from that time

704
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:05.760
<v Speaker 1>that you can share.

705
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Uh. I do have some, and I can't share them.

706
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:13.360
<v Speaker 2>I would get in serious trouble.

707
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Uh if you leave out names and specific locations, it's okay.

708
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Now because no it's bad stuff.

709
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:24.039
<v Speaker 4>So that'll be some that'll be some post show spice

710
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:24.480
<v Speaker 4>just for us.

711
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:24.800
<v Speaker 3>Jack.

712
00:43:26.119 --> 00:43:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'll tell you offline. Uh. And I'm and I'm

713
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:32.800
<v Speaker 2>and I'm trying to there's a lot of stuff I'll

714
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:35.000
<v Speaker 2>tell you. I'll tell you one sorry, which is is

715
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:37.679
<v Speaker 2>not but it shows you the scope of the problem.

716
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:45.400
<v Speaker 2>No names, no countries. But a representative of trafficking cartel

717
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:48.880
<v Speaker 2>went to the office, sought an appointment and got an

718
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:52.079
<v Speaker 2>appointment with the Attorney General of the country and came

719
00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:56.679
<v Speaker 2>into the office and he had a suitcase, and he

720
00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:59.719
<v Speaker 2>put the suitcase on the guy's desks, opened it up

721
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:04.800
<v Speaker 2>and said, here are five million dollars. It is yours.

722
00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:09.639
<v Speaker 2>If you listen to our offer. You don't have to

723
00:44:09.639 --> 00:44:12.559
<v Speaker 2>do anything. Just listen what I want to tell you.

724
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:17.559
<v Speaker 2>And the guy just looked and you know, closed the

725
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:20.280
<v Speaker 2>suitcase and put it under his desk and said go ahead.

726
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.719
<v Speaker 2>And they said, we will give you eighteen million dollars

727
00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:29.280
<v Speaker 2>a month if you get the police to the other

728
00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:34.840
<v Speaker 2>way at certain times on certain dates. That attorney general

729
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:40.840
<v Speaker 2>stayed in office for one year and then bought a

730
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:45.760
<v Speaker 2>mansion in a unnamed European country and move there after

731
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:46.280
<v Speaker 2>that year.

732
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:48.159
<v Speaker 1>Good work if you get it.

733
00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:52.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'd sell my principles probably for eighteen million a month.

734
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:56.639
<v Speaker 3>Like, uh, case you get million.

735
00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:00.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, I mean I know this is like a

736
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:04.440
<v Speaker 1>sensitive question. Uh, you know with agency people getting pitched,

737
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.199
<v Speaker 1>but I mean with the drug cartels and the kount

738
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:08.960
<v Speaker 1>of money that you explained, I mean, were there was

739
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:10.719
<v Speaker 1>there any time where they tried to buy you off?

740
00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:14.039
<v Speaker 3>No? Uh, damn it.

741
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:16.800
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you this. It's it's one of the things

742
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:20.760
<v Speaker 2>that has amazed me throughout the years. I mean, we

743
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:24.079
<v Speaker 2>have we have problems, and we'll have problem children in

744
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:31.800
<v Speaker 2>the agency. Uh, but I've I've never seen or heard

745
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:36.400
<v Speaker 2>of anybody in the agency being bought by by narcotics cartels.

746
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.679
<v Speaker 2>We've we've been bought by by the Russians, We've been

747
00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:46.320
<v Speaker 2>bought by the Chinese, but nobody has succumbed to the cartels. Uh.

748
00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:48.280
<v Speaker 2>And and that's a hell of a lot more money

749
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:48.920
<v Speaker 2>than Russians.

750
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:50.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

751
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.199
<v Speaker 2>And And for the life of me, I don't know.

752
00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:56.880
<v Speaker 2>I used to when I was in headquarters, I used

753
00:45:56.880 --> 00:46:01.639
<v Speaker 2>to sit on camera the name and I think it's

754
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:06.320
<v Speaker 2>we used to call the Personnel Evaluation Board, and that's

755
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:12.920
<v Speaker 2>the board that meets as the final say and whether

756
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:16.280
<v Speaker 2>you get fired or not and referred to the Justice Department.

757
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:21.519
<v Speaker 2>And never did I see anybody come in or that

758
00:46:21.719 --> 00:46:28.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing. Never have I heard of an operation

759
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:34.519
<v Speaker 2>being compromised because somebody got bought by the narcotics traffickers.

760
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:37.320
<v Speaker 1>Before we move on from Central South America, there was

761
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:39.599
<v Speaker 1>one more question I wanted to ask about, you know,

762
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:43.480
<v Speaker 1>your your Cuban heritage, but it sounds like they didn't

763
00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:46.559
<v Speaker 1>actually have you work in Cuba. And I was just

764
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:51.800
<v Speaker 1>interested in did you ever touch Cuban operations or you know,

765
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:54.119
<v Speaker 1>go to the island or Oh.

766
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:58.800
<v Speaker 2>No, I never went to the island. Interesting enough, I

767
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:03.239
<v Speaker 2>was pitched by the Cubans real yeah, when I was

768
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:05.960
<v Speaker 2>in I was in Guatemala. There are no Cubans in Guatemala.

769
00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:06.440
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

770
00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:10.599
<v Speaker 2>They take a dim view of communists. Uh. But my father,

771
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:13.440
<v Speaker 2>who has the same name or had the same name

772
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:16.679
<v Speaker 2>as I did, receive the letter. He was living in

773
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:22.159
<v Speaker 2>New York. Uh Staten Island, and he received the letter

774
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:27.320
<v Speaker 2>from the Cubans. They were thinking he was me ah

775
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:30.800
<v Speaker 2>and it and it basically gave a pitch where you know,

776
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:35.079
<v Speaker 2>they said, look, you know, after after alder James, Uh,

777
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:39.079
<v Speaker 2>the agency is looking at at barn Born officers and

778
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:41.880
<v Speaker 2>looking at Cubans. Your career is going to take a hit.

779
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:45.880
<v Speaker 2>You're gonna have a problem. YadA, YadA, YadA. Next time

780
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:48.119
<v Speaker 2>you're out, you know, we'd like you to reach out

781
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:51.440
<v Speaker 2>and talk to us and this kind of stuff. Uh.

782
00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:53.440
<v Speaker 2>I found out about this, and my father called me

783
00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:58.639
<v Speaker 2>on the phone and and was virtually incoherent. The the

784
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:01.519
<v Speaker 2>only words I can under staying with a stream of

785
00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:05.400
<v Speaker 2>obscenities because you're so pissed. Yeah, oh god, was he pissed.

786
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:08.480
<v Speaker 2>I just just calm calm down. This happens all the time.

787
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:12.239
<v Speaker 2>Send me the letter. And then I went back to headquarters, said, look,

788
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:14.880
<v Speaker 2>this has happened. Yeah. Yeah, they said, yeah, we've had

789
00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:17.880
<v Speaker 2>about eight or ten of these things happened since Ames

790
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:21.480
<v Speaker 2>was arrested. And the Cubans are making an effort to

791
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:24.920
<v Speaker 2>use that to try to recruit our people. But other

792
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:29.239
<v Speaker 2>than that, I have, you know, and in some places

793
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:32.039
<v Speaker 2>there are Cubans and and you do get involved. In

794
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:34.760
<v Speaker 2>my first tour, I was involved in some Cuban operations,

795
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:36.880
<v Speaker 2>but I did I didn't do a lot of that,

796
00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:42.880
<v Speaker 2>just it didn't interest me and was probably a good

797
00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:46.320
<v Speaker 2>thing because those those Cuban operations were a disaster that

798
00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:47.440
<v Speaker 2>the agency ran.

799
00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:49.519
<v Speaker 1>Now I've been told the d d G I is

800
00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:54.000
<v Speaker 1>like particularly sinister I don't know about sinners. So boy,

801
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:57.119
<v Speaker 1>they're good. They are really good.

802
00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:00.480
<v Speaker 2>And they are They are good because of I think

803
00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:07.239
<v Speaker 2>two main reasons. They are great risk takers, very creative,

804
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.400
<v Speaker 2>very imaginative, will take risks that we would not do.

805
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:14.960
<v Speaker 2>And they have, for all intents and purposes, one target,

806
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.599
<v Speaker 2>the United States. And it makes life easier when all

807
00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:23.320
<v Speaker 2>you do is focus on the one, one country, one target,

808
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:26.480
<v Speaker 2>instead of thirty forty one hundred, one hundred and fifty

809
00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:30.079
<v Speaker 2>different countries. And you got to they become experts. They understand,

810
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:36.039
<v Speaker 2>they know, they are formidable organization. They're very good, and

811
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:39.480
<v Speaker 2>they have they handed our lunch to us.

812
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:41.480
<v Speaker 3>Do you do you.

813
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:45.000
<v Speaker 4>Think that Cuba eventually learned the lesson their lesson about

814
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:50.280
<v Speaker 4>like pitching Cuban you know, officers with a Cuban heritage.

815
00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:53.719
<v Speaker 4>I mean they got Animontes who was not Cuban. She

816
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:59.159
<v Speaker 4>was Spanish, right, I think Spanish, She's Puerto Rican, Puerto Rican, Okay.

817
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, uh yeah. I mean the problem the Cubans have

818
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:06.880
<v Speaker 2>faced is that the the the first and second trunch

819
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:13.639
<v Speaker 2>of Cuban exiles are are really fanatically anti communists. Right.

820
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:20.199
<v Speaker 2>The Again, I'm not trying to cast as spurgeons on anybody. Uh,

821
00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:25.719
<v Speaker 2>but you'll have you know, those memories, those feelings start

822
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:29.960
<v Speaker 2>to die out over time. I mean you you saw

823
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.840
<v Speaker 2>it with with people like like Aimes and Hansen. You

824
00:50:33.880 --> 00:50:36.840
<v Speaker 2>know that that whole thing when when when the wall

825
00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:40.159
<v Speaker 2>came down and the Sovietian clubs, they started to lose

826
00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:45.960
<v Speaker 2>that inherent anti Russian communist Soviet attitude, and it was like, well, yeah,

827
00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:49.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, money is money, and you make money. I

828
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:51.360
<v Speaker 2>think you know, you could see you know, the next

829
00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:53.599
<v Speaker 2>generation of Cubans lose. I mean, they're all going to

830
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:56.719
<v Speaker 2>run off and work for the Cubans, but that that

831
00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:59.960
<v Speaker 2>intensity of feeling is not going to be there because

832
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:04.360
<v Speaker 2>they were born here, they grew up here. They don't

833
00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:08.400
<v Speaker 2>they don't have that sense of we lost everything. Uh.

834
00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:10.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, I had family members in jail, all this

835
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:15.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff. Uh you know that that goes just

836
00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:20.320
<v Speaker 2>the way it's it's gone. Hell. I mean, you know

837
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:24.800
<v Speaker 2>we've got politicians who are are siding with the Russians. Uh.

838
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:28.599
<v Speaker 2>When you start losing that sense, it's gonna make it easier,

839
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:30.639
<v Speaker 2>right right.

840
00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:31.880
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

841
00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:35.440
<v Speaker 1>And after this period of your career, you uh moved

842
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:37.159
<v Speaker 1>on to Eastern Europe.

843
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:40.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I went, I did you know, I got. I

844
00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:47.960
<v Speaker 2>got tired of Latin America. So I it's you sort

845
00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:50.960
<v Speaker 2>of you're sort of dealing with similar issues all the time.

846
00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:53.880
<v Speaker 2>I got. I got tired counter arcotics because that just

847
00:51:54.039 --> 00:51:56.599
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't you know, you have successes, but in the

848
00:51:56.639 --> 00:51:59.519
<v Speaker 2>big scheme of things, a big strategic picture, you had

849
00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:02.800
<v Speaker 2>no success. Yes. Uh, they were all tactical. You know,

850
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:05.000
<v Speaker 2>you were you were you were winning battles and losing

851
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:08.280
<v Speaker 2>the war. So I went to the farm. Uh and

852
00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:14.960
<v Speaker 2>eventually was running the trade craft course. Uh. That was

853
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:17.639
<v Speaker 2>sort of I requested that that for you know, it

854
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:21.119
<v Speaker 2>was for me. It was a reward. Uh. You know,

855
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:25.440
<v Speaker 2>you lived on a really nice base. Uh for for

856
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:27.800
<v Speaker 2>three years I had I didn't even know where my

857
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:36.199
<v Speaker 2>house keys were because you never bothered locking the door. Uh.

858
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Your your commute to work is five minutes. I used

859
00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:41.639
<v Speaker 2>to bitch when I had two cars in front of me,

860
00:52:41.679 --> 00:52:45.159
<v Speaker 2>I thought, my god, rush, Uh it's you know, it

861
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.239
<v Speaker 2>was really nice. And then I got offered a job

862
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:53.840
<v Speaker 2>up in Washington do East European operations. UHH. That was

863
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:59.400
<v Speaker 2>interesting in that it came at a time the Soviet

864
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:04.159
<v Speaker 2>Union had died out and the East European countries were

865
00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:09.599
<v Speaker 2>all pushing to join NATO. UH. One of the tactics

866
00:53:09.639 --> 00:53:14.519
<v Speaker 2>they were using to to gain entry into NATO was

867
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:19.280
<v Speaker 2>a very close intelligence cooperation with the US UH. And

868
00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:21.760
<v Speaker 2>again you know, can't discuss it, but they would do

869
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:24.119
<v Speaker 2>things for us that we desperately needed to do that

870
00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:28.920
<v Speaker 2>we couldn't do ourselves in the hopes successful that they

871
00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:31.159
<v Speaker 2>could use that to get into NATO.

872
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:34.320
<v Speaker 1>And as we soke up a certain country that's very

873
00:53:34.360 --> 00:53:36.760
<v Speaker 1>helpful today with Ukraine.

874
00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:39.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, uh. And and there's a lot of countries that

875
00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:42.519
<v Speaker 2>were helpful in a lot of different places. UH. And

876
00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:46.760
<v Speaker 2>I really I enjoyed working with the with the East Europeans.

877
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:51.519
<v Speaker 2>They were they were good, they were very professional. Some

878
00:53:51.559 --> 00:53:55.280
<v Speaker 2>of those services, you know, clearly trained by the KGB UH.

879
00:53:55.320 --> 00:54:00.920
<v Speaker 2>They were top notch, top tier. And and I still

880
00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:07.000
<v Speaker 2>remember the the Russians were bitching, I guess, to the

881
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:10.719
<v Speaker 2>to the polls, how they could side with the West

882
00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:13.039
<v Speaker 2>and this kind of stuff, and the Foreign Minister just

883
00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:16.960
<v Speaker 2>turned to them and said, we are the and you know,

884
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:18.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, for me, that was the final nail in

885
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:22.559
<v Speaker 2>the coffin. They said we are not with you, We're

886
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:25.039
<v Speaker 2>over there. And that was interesting. And then I got

887
00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:32.840
<v Speaker 2>I was offered a job which was probably one of

888
00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:35.880
<v Speaker 2>the best jobs I had in the agency, and it

889
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:41.039
<v Speaker 2>was it was scut work. I was. I was made

890
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:47.599
<v Speaker 2>executive assistant to the Deputy Director. And what that is

891
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:51.519
<v Speaker 2>is it's a glorified gopher job. You're there at the

892
00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:54.360
<v Speaker 2>deputy directors beck and call, you get him ready for

893
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:59.239
<v Speaker 2>meetings at the White House, make sure he gets briefings,

894
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:04.840
<v Speaker 2>You handle liaison visits, trips and everything. And the beauty

895
00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:10.559
<v Speaker 2>of it is you saw everything. You saw the entire

896
00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:16.800
<v Speaker 2>US intelligence community. You saw how US policy has made

897
00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:20.800
<v Speaker 2>You saw how the White House functions, how the different

898
00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:23.639
<v Speaker 2>departments function. I mean, I was sitting at my desk

899
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:26.000
<v Speaker 2>one day and somebody drops a piece of paper on

900
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:31.519
<v Speaker 2>it on the desk and it's the entire US Nuclear arsenal,

901
00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:35.760
<v Speaker 2>all the weapons, all the warheads, where they are, what

902
00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:39.840
<v Speaker 2>they're doing. You're looking like, oh my god, this is amazing.

903
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:41.719
<v Speaker 2>And you saw all this stuff because you had to,

904
00:55:41.800 --> 00:55:43.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, you had to prepare the deputy director and

905
00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:45.559
<v Speaker 2>all this kind of stuff, and you learned so much.

906
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:49.920
<v Speaker 2>You learn bureaucratic stuff. But at that stage of my career,

907
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:54.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a there's an acceptable assumption that I

908
00:55:54.079 --> 00:55:57.400
<v Speaker 2>know my trade as an operations officer. I know how

909
00:55:57.440 --> 00:55:59.840
<v Speaker 2>to recruit, I know how to handle I know how

910
00:55:59.880 --> 00:56:02.480
<v Speaker 2>to produce intelligence, I know how to run COVID action.

911
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:06.000
<v Speaker 2>I know this stuff. Now you're being taught a different

912
00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:09.400
<v Speaker 2>skill set. And yes, the bureaucratic skill set, but when

913
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:14.039
<v Speaker 2>you start moving your way up the chain, they're looking

914
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:16.960
<v Speaker 2>for a different skill set. You know, if you, as

915
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:19.719
<v Speaker 2>a senior officer, have to go out and recruit sources, well,

916
00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:23.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, the agencies is destroyed. That's what other people do.

917
00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:26.880
<v Speaker 2>Your job is to motivate those people, guide them, to recruit,

918
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:31.440
<v Speaker 2>to represent the agency, to manage resources, people, money, all

919
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:34.639
<v Speaker 2>this kind of stuff. And and that job was it

920
00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:37.400
<v Speaker 2>was a year long job. It was you know again

921
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:40.039
<v Speaker 2>long hours, six in the morning till about eight or

922
00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:44.800
<v Speaker 2>nine at night. But it was an incredible learning experience.

923
00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:50.960
<v Speaker 2>I learned tons of stuff. The agency, the DOO, I

924
00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:55.519
<v Speaker 2>should say not the rest of the DOO doesn't really

925
00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:58.480
<v Speaker 2>have a lot. That's for those out there don't know.

926
00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Director of Operations doesn't have a lot of leadership training.

927
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.760
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the things I've always admired about the military.

928
00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:12.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, the military has got one third of the

929
00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:17.239
<v Speaker 2>force doing the job, one third refitting, and the other

930
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:21.440
<v Speaker 2>third preparing. And that includes going off to war colleges,

931
00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:24.480
<v Speaker 2>going off to this assignment, that assignment to prepare you

932
00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:28.280
<v Speaker 2>for bigger pictures. We don't do that. We're just always

933
00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:31.480
<v Speaker 2>going overseats, Go over seas, go see. Now that's great,

934
00:57:31.639 --> 00:57:35.679
<v Speaker 2>but it doesn't create a core of senior leaders who

935
00:57:35.719 --> 00:57:39.000
<v Speaker 2>have experienced doing that. This job gives you that kind

936
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:41.800
<v Speaker 2>of experience. It's sort of a training course. And from

937
00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:45.119
<v Speaker 2>that then I slid into Chief of Rock Operations.

938
00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Talk to us about you know, kind of the run

939
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:49.719
<v Speaker 1>up to that, I mean two thousand and three, the

940
00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:52.639
<v Speaker 1>invasion happens, and sort of like where are you and

941
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:55.400
<v Speaker 1>what's that lead up to you go into Iraq?

942
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Well I was. I got to IOG a rack Op

943
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Operations Group in two thousand and one, and it was

944
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:13.119
<v Speaker 2>obvious from the get go that the incoming Bush administration

945
00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:20.400
<v Speaker 2>was serious about a ROCK. Under Clinton, they'd probably have

946
00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:24.679
<v Speaker 2>an Iraq meeting once a month. Under Bush they were

947
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:28.280
<v Speaker 2>having two to three meetings a week. So you know,

948
00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:31.760
<v Speaker 2>clearly that was you know, something was going to happen there.

949
00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:37.239
<v Speaker 2>And I got to a Rock operations, and the task

950
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:41.280
<v Speaker 2>became you need to develop a COVID action program to

951
00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:48.840
<v Speaker 2>support regime change in a rock. That was an experience

952
00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:50.960
<v Speaker 2>in of itself. I mean, I had plenty of experience

953
00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:55.599
<v Speaker 2>in COVID action at all different levels, but to be

954
00:58:55.679 --> 00:58:59.119
<v Speaker 2>handed a program to develop a program when there wasn't

955
00:58:59.320 --> 00:59:04.079
<v Speaker 2>anything there to build a program on right with a

956
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:09.119
<v Speaker 2>serious test, I mean, you know, people have a sort

957
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:12.800
<v Speaker 2>of a semi false image of what the agency does

958
00:59:12.840 --> 00:59:16.400
<v Speaker 2>from Hollywood's and books and stuff. And you flip a

959
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:18.119
<v Speaker 2>switch and you got all these guys all over the

960
00:59:18.119 --> 00:59:19.639
<v Speaker 2>place and they're doing this, and they're doing that, and

961
00:59:19.639 --> 00:59:21.960
<v Speaker 2>they're blowing this up, they shooting. It doesn't work that way.

962
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:27.400
<v Speaker 2>And if you want to have a successful program, there

963
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:29.840
<v Speaker 2>has to be something there that you build on. There

964
00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:33.559
<v Speaker 2>has to be people. There has to be opposition groups.

965
00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:37.599
<v Speaker 2>If you have to build them from whole cloth, you're

966
00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:41.320
<v Speaker 2>going to have problems. There have to be people there

967
00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:45.199
<v Speaker 2>willing to do the job with you. I had a

968
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:47.880
<v Speaker 2>senior officer tell me, he said, you know, the one

969
00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:49.760
<v Speaker 2>piece of advice I have with you is if you

970
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:53.239
<v Speaker 2>have to work with these people, work with patriots. Don't

971
00:59:53.239 --> 00:59:56.599
<v Speaker 2>work with people who there for money or personal power,

972
00:59:56.920 --> 00:59:59.880
<v Speaker 2>work with people who want to do right for their country,

973
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:03.079
<v Speaker 2>and finding people like that was difficult.

974
01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:08.679
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's interesting because you mentioned how, you know, working

975
01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:13.239
<v Speaker 4>with the contras and the leadership was elsewhere here. You know,

976
01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:16.760
<v Speaker 4>I don't know when it was decided, but it was Chilabi, right,

977
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:19.920
<v Speaker 4>a guy who lived in Virginia and setting.

978
01:00:19.719 --> 01:00:22.840
<v Speaker 3>All these contents lived in London or London London? Okay,

979
01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:26.599
<v Speaker 3>but how how does that.

980
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:28.159
<v Speaker 2>So?

981
01:00:28.360 --> 01:00:31.199
<v Speaker 4>Somebody who had previously had on the show said that

982
01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:35.320
<v Speaker 4>there were people, uh in the in the administration, like

983
01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:39.039
<v Speaker 4>long term administration, you know, the bureaucrats. There were people

984
01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:42.159
<v Speaker 4>who had been gunning for Iraq for a very long time,

985
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:47.079
<v Speaker 4>and and Bush was the right uh person to receive

986
01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:47.920
<v Speaker 4>that message.

987
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:52.719
<v Speaker 3>Uh, Like how were they when they're.

988
01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:57.119
<v Speaker 4>Asking you, you know, come up with plans for this regime change.

989
01:00:57.320 --> 01:00:59.559
<v Speaker 4>I'm sure that there was pushback from your own analysts,

990
01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:02.159
<v Speaker 4>from State Department, from people who knew like what was

991
01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:05.920
<v Speaker 4>supposed to be the counterbalance to Iran if Saddam went.

992
01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:09.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let me tell you I was for a very

993
01:01:09.679 --> 01:01:14.239
<v Speaker 2>long time as as I was a red headed stepchild. Uh.

994
01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:18.119
<v Speaker 2>People people hated me, didn't want to see me and

995
01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:21.639
<v Speaker 2>when they saw me come it was painful. Uh. You

996
01:01:21.719 --> 01:01:26.719
<v Speaker 2>had you gotta remember at the time we started the

997
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:30.599
<v Speaker 2>Iraq program, we had just had nine to eleven UH

998
01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:34.599
<v Speaker 2>and the agency, the do O, was in full counter

999
01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:41.679
<v Speaker 2>terrorism swing. The the agency is not a big organization

1000
01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:46.239
<v Speaker 2>and the Director of Operations is not a big organization.

1001
01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:50.039
<v Speaker 2>UH in terms at that time, I don't know what

1002
01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:57.400
<v Speaker 2>it's like now. Case officers worldwide and in headquarters numbered

1003
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:02.079
<v Speaker 2>less than the Ranger Regiment would And that's what we

1004
01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:05.719
<v Speaker 2>had to do. Everything we had to do from you know,

1005
01:02:05.800 --> 01:02:10.559
<v Speaker 2>the latest kop and bongie to you know, Chinese and

1006
01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:13.039
<v Speaker 2>North Korean missile tests and all this kind of stuff.

1007
01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:18.480
<v Speaker 2>And CTC, the Counterrism Center, put a strain on the

1008
01:02:18.519 --> 01:02:21.199
<v Speaker 2>system when they basically said we're going to increase by

1009
01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:24.639
<v Speaker 2>three to four fold what we have here, and the

1010
01:02:24.679 --> 01:02:28.639
<v Speaker 2>agency was like, we don't have them. They physically don't exist, right,

1011
01:02:28.679 --> 01:02:32.320
<v Speaker 2>And they were pulling officers, closing stations, and this huge

1012
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:35.679
<v Speaker 2>stress hit the system. And then a rock shows up

1013
01:02:35.719 --> 01:02:39.119
<v Speaker 2>and says, oh, by the way, we need to do more,

1014
01:02:39.639 --> 01:02:42.880
<v Speaker 2>and it was just like, oh, it's just physically impossible.

1015
01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:50.880
<v Speaker 2>So there was a lot of pushback from my own

1016
01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:58.760
<v Speaker 2>people in the building. There were elements within the analytical

1017
01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:01.000
<v Speaker 2>community that said, this is probably not a good idea.

1018
01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:02.199
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

1019
01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:05.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, the the the sense the analyst had was

1020
01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:11.119
<v Speaker 2>and correctly. So. You know, Saddam is a pain, but

1021
01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:12.960
<v Speaker 2>he's not a direct threat to the US. He's not

1022
01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:17.199
<v Speaker 2>going to attack the US. Uh. He's he's he's a

1023
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:20.159
<v Speaker 2>problem in the region, but he's a problem. He's not

1024
01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:25.000
<v Speaker 2>a threat the military. The regular military is pretty much

1025
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:29.840
<v Speaker 2>rotted from the inside. Uh. He doesn't have the capability

1026
01:03:29.960 --> 01:03:33.599
<v Speaker 2>anymore to launch a major invasion of any other country.

1027
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:35.559
<v Speaker 2>He could, he could harass, he can attack and do

1028
01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:41.039
<v Speaker 2>this kind of stuff. At most, He's a regional annoyance, right,

1029
01:03:41.719 --> 01:03:45.960
<v Speaker 2>and probably not worth a war. Uh. But at the

1030
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:50.559
<v Speaker 2>same time, you had elements. Uh, as you pointed out,

1031
01:03:50.599 --> 01:03:54.960
<v Speaker 2>they were long term elements. Uh. That a lot of them,

1032
01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:58.039
<v Speaker 2>I would say, we were political guys who came in

1033
01:03:58.079 --> 01:04:03.039
<v Speaker 2>and out of government. Uh, that top tier, who are

1034
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:08.760
<v Speaker 2>political appointees, but who have done multiple tours of duty

1035
01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:11.000
<v Speaker 2>in the Pentagon, in the White House.

1036
01:04:11.239 --> 01:04:11.400
<v Speaker 3>You know.

1037
01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:13.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, Cheney is a great example. He had done

1038
01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:15.960
<v Speaker 2>this rum self the same way that had been in

1039
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:17.760
<v Speaker 2>the White House. They had been in the Pentagon back

1040
01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:20.760
<v Speaker 2>and forth. Uh. And you had these guys who were

1041
01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:23.559
<v Speaker 2>hell bent on we you know, we got to finish

1042
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:26.039
<v Speaker 2>the job we started in the first golf for right.

1043
01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:30.760
<v Speaker 2>And and you had a group of neo cons especially

1044
01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:35.000
<v Speaker 2>people on the outside of the Pentagon who were advisors

1045
01:04:35.079 --> 01:04:37.679
<v Speaker 2>to the Secretary of Defense and to the Vice President,

1046
01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:41.880
<v Speaker 2>who's who kept saying, uh, touting the we are now

1047
01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:46.440
<v Speaker 2>in a unipolar world. We're the top dog, and we

1048
01:04:46.599 --> 01:04:49.000
<v Speaker 2>have to we have to show we want to demonstrate

1049
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:56.039
<v Speaker 2>that we can act unilaterally in a light, efficient, rapid

1050
01:04:56.159 --> 01:05:00.920
<v Speaker 2>manner and and bring about change that we want. And

1051
01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:02.679
<v Speaker 2>we pick a rock.

1052
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:06.840
<v Speaker 1>It's yeah, hw Bush did it in the Gulf War

1053
01:05:06.920 --> 01:05:09.840
<v Speaker 1>to show that you could build this global coalition. But

1054
01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:11.599
<v Speaker 1>I mean after nine to eleven, I mean, for the

1055
01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:14.960
<v Speaker 1>reasons that you just laid out, I mean it's completely unnecessary.

1056
01:05:15.639 --> 01:05:18.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And you know, in no word, even they weren't

1057
01:05:18.079 --> 01:05:20.400
<v Speaker 2>even concerned about building a coalition. They're added to us,

1058
01:05:20.440 --> 01:05:22.599
<v Speaker 2>we can do this by ourselves. I was I was

1059
01:05:22.639 --> 01:05:28.840
<v Speaker 2>at a meeting with it at sent Common with General

1060
01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Franks and Rumsfeld had called on the phone and I

1061
01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:35.440
<v Speaker 2>could only hear one part of the conversation, but they

1062
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:40.920
<v Speaker 2>were going back and forth on the plan, and Franks

1063
01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:43.920
<v Speaker 2>had been able to strip the thing down to two

1064
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:48.000
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty thousand troops, and I you know, you

1065
01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:50.119
<v Speaker 2>could you could hear from his tone that he was

1066
01:05:50.119 --> 01:05:53.079
<v Speaker 2>getting a lot of pushback, and he eventually hung up

1067
01:05:53.119 --> 01:05:55.559
<v Speaker 2>and said, we are at one hundred and forty thousand.

1068
01:05:57.119 --> 01:05:59.519
<v Speaker 2>That's what the secretary wants. That's where our secretary is

1069
01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:02.400
<v Speaker 2>going to get and you can see them. You know,

1070
01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:05.039
<v Speaker 2>we have a theory, we have an idea, and we're

1071
01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:06.519
<v Speaker 2>going to prove it and we're going to test it

1072
01:06:06.559 --> 01:06:10.280
<v Speaker 2>out here, right, And it gets to some of the

1073
01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:15.320
<v Speaker 2>subsequent problems. I'll give you an example. We had the

1074
01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:21.239
<v Speaker 2>Agency had gotten in touch with many, many, many of

1075
01:06:21.360 --> 01:06:26.559
<v Speaker 2>the major unit commanders in the Iraqi Army and we said,

1076
01:06:27.519 --> 01:06:30.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, this shit's gonna happen. You don't want to

1077
01:06:30.639 --> 01:06:33.280
<v Speaker 2>be in the way. And they all say, okay, fine,

1078
01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:35.320
<v Speaker 2>we're going to surrender, but hey, we're not going to

1079
01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:38.840
<v Speaker 2>surrender until we see US troops. You know, you did

1080
01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:41.920
<v Speaker 2>that to us last time and we got hosts. So

1081
01:06:42.079 --> 01:06:45.039
<v Speaker 2>when the US troops show up, we're going to surrender. Well,

1082
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:51.280
<v Speaker 2>the the unintended consequence was as as send Com explained,

1083
01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:55.320
<v Speaker 2>we have one hundred and forty thousand troops that leaves

1084
01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:59.599
<v Speaker 2>us one MP unit and their sole job is to

1085
01:06:59.639 --> 01:07:02.599
<v Speaker 2>keep the tr traffic flowing from Kuwait to Baghdad. We

1086
01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:08.800
<v Speaker 2>can't take prisoners, and so the military launched a leaflet

1087
01:07:08.880 --> 01:07:14.679
<v Speaker 2>campaign before the invasion telling people go home, put your

1088
01:07:14.719 --> 01:07:19.039
<v Speaker 2>cities on, and go home because there's no facilities. We

1089
01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:21.119
<v Speaker 2>can't take prison We don't have enough guys to do prisoners.

1090
01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:24.039
<v Speaker 2>We got enough to punch our way up to Bagdad.

1091
01:07:25.320 --> 01:07:28.639
<v Speaker 2>That meant that four hundred and fifty thousand Iraqi guys

1092
01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:32.239
<v Speaker 2>put on civilian uniforms and they're eight ks with them.

1093
01:07:32.239 --> 01:07:32.880
<v Speaker 2>I went home.

1094
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:40.760
<v Speaker 1>It's ideological beliefs just completely overwhelming any sort of strategic rationality.

1095
01:07:40.360 --> 01:07:44.679
<v Speaker 4>And like just wishful thinking and not good planning. Like

1096
01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:48.079
<v Speaker 4>you know, I'm like I said, they're very smart analysts,

1097
01:07:48.159 --> 01:07:51.599
<v Speaker 4>both in the State Department and the agency and the military.

1098
01:07:52.199 --> 01:07:55.440
<v Speaker 4>And you know, you have all these soldiers who why

1099
01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:58.559
<v Speaker 4>don't you drop pamphlets and say remain in place, We're

1100
01:07:58.599 --> 01:08:02.320
<v Speaker 4>going to take over your pay. Uh, you know, like

1101
01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:04.760
<v Speaker 4>don't like stay in your barracks, don't come out, but

1102
01:08:04.840 --> 01:08:07.280
<v Speaker 4>will take over your pay. But this whole thing we

1103
01:08:07.320 --> 01:08:12.599
<v Speaker 4>went through with depathification, Like it's almost like nobody thought

1104
01:08:12.679 --> 01:08:16.640
<v Speaker 4>this through, or they did or or they did think

1105
01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:18.399
<v Speaker 4>it through, like smart people thought it through.

1106
01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:21.800
<v Speaker 3>And then I don't know whoever.

1107
01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:23.319
<v Speaker 2>Looked at it, you know, oh god, it was Look,

1108
01:08:23.560 --> 01:08:25.560
<v Speaker 2>you're right, there's there's a lot and it's one of

1109
01:08:25.560 --> 01:08:29.079
<v Speaker 2>the one of the things that that is, at least

1110
01:08:29.079 --> 01:08:34.319
<v Speaker 2>in my profession, the most dangerous is wishful thinking. Yeah,

1111
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:37.560
<v Speaker 2>if I do A, then B is going to happen.

1112
01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:41.239
<v Speaker 2>The other guy's thinking, no, no, no C is gonna happen. No,

1113
01:08:41.239 --> 01:08:43.479
<v Speaker 2>no B is gonna happen. And there's a lot of

1114
01:08:43.479 --> 01:08:48.880
<v Speaker 2>wishful thinking. There was a lot of good advice that

1115
01:08:49.199 --> 01:08:56.880
<v Speaker 2>the powers in charge decided not to accept, h the depathification.

1116
01:08:56.920 --> 01:08:59.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, they were told time and time again. Uh,

1117
01:09:00.920 --> 01:09:03.920
<v Speaker 2>the Army, I mean the agency went in said, the

1118
01:09:04.039 --> 01:09:05.359
<v Speaker 2>army is not a problem.

1119
01:09:05.479 --> 01:09:05.640
<v Speaker 3>Right.

1120
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:08.399
<v Speaker 2>The army right now exists, the regular Army, not the

1121
01:09:08.439 --> 01:09:12.560
<v Speaker 2>Republican Guard. The Army exists as a social welfare program.

1122
01:09:12.920 --> 01:09:16.600
<v Speaker 2>You've got four hundred fifty thousand guys plus families plus

1123
01:09:16.640 --> 01:09:18.680
<v Speaker 2>people who depend on them, who get a salary and

1124
01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:20.720
<v Speaker 2>they go do their stuff. You know two three million

1125
01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:25.680
<v Speaker 2>people depend on that. Don't disband them. Take them and

1126
01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:28.239
<v Speaker 2>put them on the borders as a border police force.

1127
01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Pay them a salary, have them guard the borders, keep

1128
01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:36.800
<v Speaker 2>all the Iranians out, and all this stuff. And I

1129
01:09:36.920 --> 01:09:38.680
<v Speaker 2>was at a mediate at the White House and Bush

1130
01:09:38.720 --> 01:09:43.920
<v Speaker 2>asked how many Bathys are there? I said about seventy thousand,

1131
01:09:44.199 --> 01:09:46.319
<v Speaker 2>and he said, well, how many we got to take

1132
01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:48.279
<v Speaker 2>care of it? I said, it's only about five thousand

1133
01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:51.319
<v Speaker 2>or so. Who really a hardcore believer? The rest of them,

1134
01:09:51.760 --> 01:09:54.079
<v Speaker 2>It's like the Communist Party. You want to be a teacher,

1135
01:09:54.159 --> 01:09:55.880
<v Speaker 2>you got to be a party member. You want to

1136
01:09:55.880 --> 01:09:57.560
<v Speaker 2>be a copy you got to be a party member.

1137
01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:00.279
<v Speaker 2>You want to run the oil fields party member. They

1138
01:10:00.279 --> 01:10:02.600
<v Speaker 2>don't give a shit. What they want is a job.

1139
01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:04.920
<v Speaker 2>So all you got to do is deal with five thousand.

1140
01:10:05.039 --> 01:10:07.520
<v Speaker 2>Well what do they do? Get rid of all seventy thousand?

1141
01:10:08.439 --> 01:10:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Now you got four and fifty thousand unemployed soldiers, seventy

1142
01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:17.920
<v Speaker 2>thousand unemployed bathies, which meant that the teachers were all fired,

1143
01:10:18.640 --> 01:10:23.359
<v Speaker 2>which meant that you had thousands of teenagers with nothing

1144
01:10:23.399 --> 01:10:26.239
<v Speaker 2>to do. And you know what happens then, and it'll

1145
01:10:26.239 --> 01:10:28.119
<v Speaker 2>all turn to shit very quickly.

1146
01:10:28.399 --> 01:10:33.199
<v Speaker 4>And all the public works, like every functioning part of government. Yeah,

1147
01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:37.880
<v Speaker 4>was like suddenly out, Yeah, you do you I mean

1148
01:10:38.279 --> 01:10:40.239
<v Speaker 4>you may not want to throw shade or spill the tea.

1149
01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:45.680
<v Speaker 4>But were there specific people who were responsible for these

1150
01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:47.399
<v Speaker 4>decisions that went against all logic?

1151
01:10:48.239 --> 01:10:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Yes, oh yes, I mean yeah. I for your listeners,

1152
01:10:56.920 --> 01:10:59.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, I would refer you to there's a whole

1153
01:10:59.199 --> 01:11:04.199
<v Speaker 2>bunch of books out in Iraq that does name names

1154
01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:09.760
<v Speaker 2>and identify the people. But there was a coterie of

1155
01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:15.920
<v Speaker 2>senior people who were most definitely responsible for the mess

1156
01:11:15.960 --> 01:11:20.319
<v Speaker 2>that came after they were handed a document that said

1157
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:25.119
<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't do this, this, this, and this because it

1158
01:11:25.159 --> 01:11:29.880
<v Speaker 2>will lead to that. And they took that document literally

1159
01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:32.399
<v Speaker 2>and said we're going to do this, this, this, and this,

1160
01:11:34.119 --> 01:11:37.439
<v Speaker 2>and then they're stunned. I mean I went again. I

1161
01:11:37.479 --> 01:11:40.000
<v Speaker 2>was in the I was in the sit room. No

1162
01:11:40.119 --> 01:11:44.840
<v Speaker 2>names mentioned, but the but the some senior officials in

1163
01:11:44.880 --> 01:11:48.760
<v Speaker 2>the Pentagon were briefing the president on the day after

1164
01:11:49.039 --> 01:11:50.439
<v Speaker 2>what are we going to do with the rock?

1165
01:11:50.840 --> 01:11:51.079
<v Speaker 3>Right?

1166
01:11:51.279 --> 01:11:56.279
<v Speaker 2>And the first line that goes up is the US

1167
01:11:56.479 --> 01:12:02.439
<v Speaker 2>occupation of Nazi Germany in forty five, and based on that,

1168
01:12:02.560 --> 01:12:06.720
<v Speaker 2>they start their presentation, and it was so bad that

1169
01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:09.439
<v Speaker 2>the Secretary of Defense had to stop it and say, still, okay,

1170
01:12:09.720 --> 01:12:11.800
<v Speaker 2>we're not ready, mister President. We'll get back to you.

1171
01:12:12.840 --> 01:12:16.199
<v Speaker 2>And clearly they had no idea what they're doing, he said.

1172
01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:20.760
<v Speaker 2>The analysts were saying, you can't use Nazi Germany as

1173
01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:25.319
<v Speaker 2>a template for a rock right right, And and there

1174
01:12:25.399 --> 01:12:29.119
<v Speaker 2>was no plan. Literally, there was no plan. It was good.

1175
01:12:29.119 --> 01:12:33.000
<v Speaker 2>It was it'll fix itself. And that gets to your

1176
01:12:33.039 --> 01:12:41.800
<v Speaker 2>mention of Challaby. Chalibi was a very articulate, very poised,

1177
01:12:42.520 --> 01:12:48.000
<v Speaker 2>westernized rock. He wore four thousand dollars suits Taylor made

1178
01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:55.039
<v Speaker 2>in savile row in London, spoke excellent English, and had

1179
01:12:55.399 --> 01:13:00.479
<v Speaker 2>snowed all these senior officials. And his argument was it's

1180
01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:05.439
<v Speaker 2>gonna be okay because I'm gonna be welcomed, my guys

1181
01:13:05.479 --> 01:13:08.199
<v Speaker 2>will be there, we'll fix everything for you. And it

1182
01:13:08.239 --> 01:13:10.760
<v Speaker 2>gets that wishful thinking, it's gonna it's gonna be fine,

1183
01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:14.119
<v Speaker 2>this is what's gonna happen, and they bought it. It's

1184
01:13:14.119 --> 01:13:14.680
<v Speaker 2>gonna happen.

1185
01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:18.239
<v Speaker 4>Was there any intelligence supporting that or did he just

1186
01:13:18.399 --> 01:13:21.640
<v Speaker 4>do like the right politicians and make them believe it.

1187
01:13:22.359 --> 01:13:27.720
<v Speaker 2>There was no intelligence supporting that. You know we told them,

1188
01:13:27.800 --> 01:13:33.199
<v Speaker 2>and they senior officials in the Pentagon hated us because

1189
01:13:33.399 --> 01:13:35.399
<v Speaker 2>we went in there, and they hated the State Department.

1190
01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:39.079
<v Speaker 2>We said, Chalab is a con man. Chalabi doesn't have anything.

1191
01:13:39.560 --> 01:13:43.800
<v Speaker 2>All the exiles have been exiles for thirty years. They

1192
01:13:43.800 --> 01:13:47.399
<v Speaker 2>have no following inside a rock. They have no infrastructure

1193
01:13:47.439 --> 01:13:53.640
<v Speaker 2>of capability, no organizations. They can't deliver on anything. And

1194
01:13:56.119 --> 01:13:59.279
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna it's it's gonna go into these hands and

1195
01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:01.119
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna have to deal with it, not them. It's

1196
01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:05.000
<v Speaker 2>not going to get fixed. Nobody listened Jolla B. Excuse me,

1197
01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:09.039
<v Speaker 2>Challa B worked his magic on him and they bought it.

1198
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:11.600
<v Speaker 2>They believed he's gonna fix it, and he.

1199
01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:14.279
<v Speaker 3>Got there and he's a total outsider with like nobody.

1200
01:14:14.479 --> 01:14:17.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so tell us about your your experience landing in

1201
01:14:18.199 --> 01:14:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Baghdad and running ops.

1202
01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:23.920
<v Speaker 4>Let's do this real quick, because you have the Iraq

1203
01:14:24.279 --> 01:14:26.920
<v Speaker 4>Operations Group started, you know, you start there in two

1204
01:14:26.920 --> 01:14:27.479
<v Speaker 4>thousand and one.

1205
01:14:27.880 --> 01:14:30.520
<v Speaker 3>How did we get to w d's and yellow Cake.

1206
01:14:32.359 --> 01:14:35.359
<v Speaker 2>Uh, it's a good question. I don't know. Uh, it's

1207
01:14:35.399 --> 01:14:40.520
<v Speaker 2>not a cop out. And back to our early discussion.

1208
01:14:40.600 --> 01:14:45.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna paraphrase Julius Caesar UH. Iraq was divided into

1209
01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:50.359
<v Speaker 2>three parts. UH. The counter Terrorism Center handled Iraq counter

1210
01:14:50.479 --> 01:14:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Terrorism issues, Counterproliferation Division CP IRAQ handled WMD, and then

1211
01:14:58.039 --> 01:15:01.119
<v Speaker 2>everything else else in the COVID fell to a rock

1212
01:15:01.199 --> 01:15:06.279
<v Speaker 2>operations group. I was on. I mean I was in

1213
01:15:06.319 --> 01:15:08.640
<v Speaker 2>a periphery because I would sit in some of the briefings.

1214
01:15:09.279 --> 01:15:14.199
<v Speaker 2>But the best I can assess is there were no

1215
01:15:16.199 --> 01:15:22.680
<v Speaker 2>reliable human sources on a rock WMD. Most of what

1216
01:15:22.760 --> 01:15:29.560
<v Speaker 2>we had came from liaison services, you know, Germans, Brits, Italians, whoever.

1217
01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:32.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know. I'm just rattling off names.

1218
01:15:32.079 --> 01:15:38.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if they provided anything technical means, And

1219
01:15:38.119 --> 01:15:45.039
<v Speaker 2>as the analyst explained, it pretty much a formula. In

1220
01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:50.359
<v Speaker 2>the First Gulf War, Iraq had so many chemical weapons,

1221
01:15:50.600 --> 01:15:56.760
<v Speaker 2>so many were decommissioned after and this much is left.

1222
01:15:57.079 --> 01:15:59.720
<v Speaker 2>So this is what they have chemical weapons.

1223
01:16:00.479 --> 01:16:00.640
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

1224
01:16:02.319 --> 01:16:04.159
<v Speaker 2>Then there was a whole host and one of the

1225
01:16:04.239 --> 01:16:06.479
<v Speaker 2>one of the problems you face in any kind of

1226
01:16:06.479 --> 01:16:12.279
<v Speaker 2>intelligence operation is, especially when it starts to be big

1227
01:16:12.439 --> 01:16:16.800
<v Speaker 2>like this and people UH smell money in the air,

1228
01:16:17.039 --> 01:16:20.520
<v Speaker 2>is you get a lot of fabricators, people who will

1229
01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:24.239
<v Speaker 2>make up ship and tell you stuff in return for money.

1230
01:16:24.319 --> 01:16:27.560
<v Speaker 2>They say, oh, we can get some money. The yellow

1231
01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:31.960
<v Speaker 2>cake thing came out of if I understand it correctly,

1232
01:16:32.000 --> 01:16:35.479
<v Speaker 2>and I could be wrong, came out of Nigeria. I

1233
01:16:35.520 --> 01:16:38.960
<v Speaker 2>think it was or niger I'm not sure which that

1234
01:16:39.079 --> 01:16:43.640
<v Speaker 2>they were. The Iraqis were buying the stuff, uh, but

1235
01:16:43.760 --> 01:16:47.560
<v Speaker 2>it was. It was not very well sourced and it

1236
01:16:47.600 --> 01:16:52.399
<v Speaker 2>was weak. But we had elements of the administration who

1237
01:16:52.439 --> 01:16:56.399
<v Speaker 2>would latch onto anything right that would make their case.

1238
01:16:57.920 --> 01:17:02.119
<v Speaker 2>So I'll give you an example. I was sitting in

1239
01:17:02.159 --> 01:17:07.720
<v Speaker 2>my office in CIA headquarters and a message came in

1240
01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:13.239
<v Speaker 2>from one of our stations saying that this guy, this

1241
01:17:13.279 --> 01:17:17.640
<v Speaker 2>Iraqi had volunteered, walked into the embassy and said he

1242
01:17:17.680 --> 01:17:22.279
<v Speaker 2>had information from the head of Iraqi intelligence who wanted

1243
01:17:22.319 --> 01:17:27.359
<v Speaker 2>to cooperate with us. So I had him do a

1244
01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:33.439
<v Speaker 2>check and by the time the information on this guy

1245
01:17:33.520 --> 01:17:38.399
<v Speaker 2>came back to me, I had a senior agency officer

1246
01:17:38.439 --> 01:17:41.600
<v Speaker 2>we won't name names, standing in front of me saying,

1247
01:17:41.680 --> 01:17:44.319
<v Speaker 2>the Vice President wants you to send somebody to meet

1248
01:17:44.319 --> 01:17:49.079
<v Speaker 2>this guy because he has valuable information. And somehow he

1249
01:17:49.119 --> 01:17:51.000
<v Speaker 2>had gotten this information. I don't know how we got it,

1250
01:17:51.039 --> 01:17:53.840
<v Speaker 2>probably from the briefer. And I said, well, we ran

1251
01:17:54.039 --> 01:17:57.319
<v Speaker 2>checks on this guy. The CIA terminated him for being

1252
01:17:57.359 --> 01:18:04.520
<v Speaker 2>a fabricator, terminated him for being a fabricator. The Austrians

1253
01:18:04.600 --> 01:18:08.680
<v Speaker 2>terminated for him for being a fabricator. I think he's

1254
01:18:08.720 --> 01:18:12.239
<v Speaker 2>a fabricator. And I think the guys here with the

1255
01:18:12.279 --> 01:18:17.159
<v Speaker 2>load of bullshit just to get some money. And they

1256
01:18:17.239 --> 01:18:19.079
<v Speaker 2>kept insisting you got to meet the guys. I'm not

1257
01:18:19.119 --> 01:18:22.000
<v Speaker 2>going to waste somebody's time flying out there talking to

1258
01:18:22.039 --> 01:18:25.199
<v Speaker 2>a guy who's lying to us and then putting the

1259
01:18:25.199 --> 01:18:28.840
<v Speaker 2>information out knowing you it's a lie, right, And I said,

1260
01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:32.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, you guys pay me for my expertise and

1261
01:18:32.439 --> 01:18:36.760
<v Speaker 2>my experience, and when three different intelligence services terminate somebody

1262
01:18:36.800 --> 01:18:39.159
<v Speaker 2>for being a fabricator, I don't want to have to

1263
01:18:39.159 --> 01:18:42.039
<v Speaker 2>do it a fourth time. I looked like an idiot,

1264
01:18:42.199 --> 01:18:45.359
<v Speaker 2>and boy did I get a load of shit.

1265
01:18:45.840 --> 01:18:46.800
<v Speaker 1>You were not their buddy.

1266
01:18:46.840 --> 01:18:52.039
<v Speaker 2>After that, no, and you know it, they tried to

1267
01:18:52.079 --> 01:18:55.359
<v Speaker 2>send somebody else out there. And we had a lot

1268
01:18:55.359 --> 01:19:01.399
<v Speaker 2>of this stuff where there was at least sourced information

1269
01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:07.439
<v Speaker 2>or suspect fabricators, and they kept trying to force us.

1270
01:19:07.479 --> 01:19:11.760
<v Speaker 2>We met a guy who claimed to be an a

1271
01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:17.560
<v Speaker 2>rocky nuclear physicist, and we thought, now this guy's a fabricator.

1272
01:19:17.600 --> 01:19:20.199
<v Speaker 2>I said, no, what do you think he's a fabricator? Oh,

1273
01:19:20.239 --> 01:19:25.840
<v Speaker 2>because Chalabi's people have directed us toward him, so we

1274
01:19:26.399 --> 01:19:28.520
<v Speaker 2>had to send people out. So we had to send

1275
01:19:28.520 --> 01:19:31.520
<v Speaker 2>people out. This came out from the White House. So

1276
01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:35.720
<v Speaker 2>we sent people out to debrief the guy, and they

1277
01:19:35.760 --> 01:19:38.720
<v Speaker 2>were doing the debriefing, and the guy was clearly nervous

1278
01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:40.600
<v Speaker 2>because he kept going to the bathroom all the time.

1279
01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:44.079
<v Speaker 2>We're fifteen minutes. He had a p Fortunately, we had

1280
01:19:44.119 --> 01:19:49.800
<v Speaker 2>an analyst there who was a nuclear physicist, and the

1281
01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:51.640
<v Speaker 2>guy went to the bathroom. It's one of those old

1282
01:19:51.640 --> 01:19:54.760
<v Speaker 2>fashioned doors. We had the glass pane on top. And

1283
01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:57.159
<v Speaker 2>the analyst stood in a chair and looked inside the

1284
01:19:57.199 --> 01:20:01.000
<v Speaker 2>bathroom and the guy was pulling his sleeve out and

1285
01:20:01.079 --> 01:20:03.399
<v Speaker 2>reading all the notes that he had written on his arm,

1286
01:20:04.560 --> 01:20:07.960
<v Speaker 2>and that's where he was getting his information. FOW and

1287
01:20:08.000 --> 01:20:11.720
<v Speaker 2>he came back and he said, sky's nice. He's not

1288
01:20:11.800 --> 01:20:14.319
<v Speaker 2>a physicist. Doesn't know what he's talking about. I asked

1289
01:20:14.399 --> 01:20:17.920
<v Speaker 2>him two or three questions. He doesn't understand UH. And

1290
01:20:17.920 --> 01:20:26.079
<v Speaker 2>and the White House had had the Defense Intelligence Agency

1291
01:20:26.199 --> 01:20:30.600
<v Speaker 2>parole the guy into the us UH to provide additional

1292
01:20:30.640 --> 01:20:34.039
<v Speaker 2>debriefing and information. We said this this.

1293
01:20:33.279 --> 01:20:36.880
<v Speaker 1>This stuff is like, I'll be honest to leis is

1294
01:20:36.960 --> 01:20:41.319
<v Speaker 1>it's like mildly traumatic to hear because you know, I

1295
01:20:41.439 --> 01:20:45.760
<v Speaker 1>served in Iraq in the army. Dave served thousands of

1296
01:20:45.800 --> 01:20:48.760
<v Speaker 1>American soldiers served a lot, My son served in Iraq

1297
01:20:48.800 --> 01:20:52.199
<v Speaker 1>in the army. A lot did not come home. Yeah,

1298
01:20:52.199 --> 01:20:55.039
<v Speaker 1>and to hear that, you know, our our troops were

1299
01:20:55.079 --> 01:21:01.199
<v Speaker 1>sent under such dubious circumstances, it is difficult. It's difficult

1300
01:21:01.239 --> 01:21:03.199
<v Speaker 1>to process.

1301
01:21:02.479 --> 01:21:07.760
<v Speaker 2>It is incredibly difficult to process. It is you know,

1302
01:21:07.920 --> 01:21:17.239
<v Speaker 2>I again, I it's one of the things I struggle with. You.

1303
01:21:17.239 --> 01:21:20.960
<v Speaker 2>You can make you can make a logical argument that

1304
01:21:21.039 --> 01:21:24.520
<v Speaker 2>the neocons made that you know, we're trying to create

1305
01:21:26.000 --> 01:21:29.199
<v Speaker 2>a better rock and and you know Saddam was was

1306
01:21:29.399 --> 01:21:32.039
<v Speaker 2>a savage and his sons were savages and the world

1307
01:21:32.119 --> 01:21:36.439
<v Speaker 2>is better off without them. But the end result is

1308
01:21:36.439 --> 01:21:42.000
<v Speaker 2>is we left a much more unstable Middle East. Yeah,

1309
01:21:43.399 --> 01:21:50.159
<v Speaker 2>we created a lot more terrorism, more insurgency. We lost

1310
01:21:50.439 --> 01:21:54.560
<v Speaker 2>a lot of goodwill that we obtained after nine to eleven.

1311
01:21:57.039 --> 01:21:59.560
<v Speaker 2>And I have a friend who you know, he worked

1312
01:21:59.560 --> 01:22:01.560
<v Speaker 2>with me on a rock and he's gonna be pissed

1313
01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:05.399
<v Speaker 2>about this stuff. But because he's a believer in getting

1314
01:22:05.520 --> 01:22:10.800
<v Speaker 2>rid of Saddam. Uh. But we sent a lot of

1315
01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:14.640
<v Speaker 2>American men and women into a situation they didn't have

1316
01:22:14.760 --> 01:22:21.000
<v Speaker 2>to be in. Uh. I you know, I my son

1317
01:22:21.079 --> 01:22:23.760
<v Speaker 2>was in a rock and I spent a year. I

1318
01:22:23.760 --> 01:22:27.279
<v Speaker 2>couldn't even watch the news because I and you know,

1319
01:22:27.319 --> 01:22:35.439
<v Speaker 2>and he's he lost friends and I I I understand

1320
01:22:37.159 --> 01:22:41.359
<v Speaker 2>that at the end of the day, the soldiers fight

1321
01:22:41.439 --> 01:22:44.439
<v Speaker 2>for each other, and that's what they're there for, to

1322
01:22:44.520 --> 01:22:46.720
<v Speaker 2>make sure the guy next to him doesn't get killed,

1323
01:22:47.000 --> 01:22:50.039
<v Speaker 2>that they have their back. Uh. And it's it's it's

1324
01:22:50.079 --> 01:22:53.880
<v Speaker 2>that bond and that whole flag ship and whatever. It's

1325
01:22:54.000 --> 01:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>nice and the big picture is nice, but at the

1326
01:22:57.000 --> 01:23:00.000
<v Speaker 2>end of the day, you fight for your buddy. Uh.

1327
01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:02.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's the only the only saving grace I have

1328
01:23:03.640 --> 01:23:08.840
<v Speaker 2>towards this whole rock thing. You know, people people who

1329
01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:15.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't who never served their country in that capacity, had

1330
01:23:16.000 --> 01:23:21.800
<v Speaker 2>no qualms about sending men and women into this this

1331
01:23:21.880 --> 01:23:22.520
<v Speaker 2>ship storm.

1332
01:23:23.159 --> 01:23:23.279
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

1333
01:23:23.840 --> 01:23:31.039
<v Speaker 2>For you know, it's probably bogus is too strong a word,

1334
01:23:31.119 --> 01:23:33.039
<v Speaker 2>but it's you know, it's a cause you you look

1335
01:23:33.039 --> 01:23:34.239
<v Speaker 2>at it's not necessary.

1336
01:23:34.479 --> 01:23:38.399
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and Congress, Yeah, I'm sorry, Congress.

1337
01:23:38.479 --> 01:23:40.399
<v Speaker 3>Wasn't that divided on this either.

1338
01:23:41.640 --> 01:23:48.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, uh you know it's it's and and it

1339
01:23:48.560 --> 01:23:51.239
<v Speaker 2>pissed me off because it didn't have to be as

1340
01:23:51.239 --> 01:23:55.199
<v Speaker 2>hard and painful as it was, right, exactly right. They

1341
01:23:55.239 --> 01:23:57.479
<v Speaker 2>made it worse. They and they kept making it worse.

1342
01:23:57.479 --> 01:24:01.199
<v Speaker 2>And it gives I remember sitting in uh in the

1343
01:24:01.199 --> 01:24:03.840
<v Speaker 2>sit room they were having a meeting. I always went

1344
01:24:03.920 --> 01:24:08.800
<v Speaker 2>with a director as a plus one, and the president

1345
01:24:08.920 --> 01:24:11.359
<v Speaker 2>was there, and they were all going back and forth.

1346
01:24:11.520 --> 01:24:16.239
<v Speaker 2>And and the only two guys in the room who

1347
01:24:16.319 --> 01:24:22.199
<v Speaker 2>kept raising objections, uhh were Colin Powell and Richard Armitage.

1348
01:24:23.079 --> 01:24:24.640
<v Speaker 2>And they were the only two guys in that room

1349
01:24:24.720 --> 01:24:28.239
<v Speaker 2>had fought in combat. And they kept saying, you know,

1350
01:24:28.520 --> 01:24:32.560
<v Speaker 2>you're this is this is not just doesn't make any sense,

1351
01:24:32.840 --> 01:24:38.359
<v Speaker 2>right and and and everybody else who did not never

1352
01:24:38.439 --> 01:24:41.199
<v Speaker 2>did and their kids never went. None of them this ship.

1353
01:24:41.279 --> 01:24:44.720
<v Speaker 2>They they just did. They didn't. They didn't heed the advice.

1354
01:24:46.119 --> 01:24:48.199
<v Speaker 1>Lewis, what what was could you tell us about your

1355
01:24:48.199 --> 01:24:51.279
<v Speaker 1>personal experiences in Iraq when you were running ops over

1356
01:24:51.319 --> 01:24:52.079
<v Speaker 1>there and back.

1357
01:24:52.000 --> 01:24:54.319
<v Speaker 2>Then, No, I ran I did, I did headquarters, I

1358
01:24:54.680 --> 01:24:56.960
<v Speaker 2>did the lead up to the war and the end

1359
01:24:56.960 --> 01:25:01.800
<v Speaker 2>of the conventional operations. Uh I prepared for my next

1360
01:25:01.800 --> 01:25:07.800
<v Speaker 2>overseas assigning, which was India. I watched I watched operations

1361
01:25:07.880 --> 01:25:08.760
<v Speaker 2>there from Afar.

1362
01:25:09.199 --> 01:25:12.159
<v Speaker 1>Oh I see. Okay, So let's jump into your time

1363
01:25:12.199 --> 01:25:14.880
<v Speaker 1>then as cos in New Delhi, because I think India

1364
01:25:14.960 --> 01:25:20.359
<v Speaker 1>is just an absolutely fascinating country, pivotal pivotal country perhaps

1365
01:25:20.359 --> 01:25:22.479
<v Speaker 1>in some of the conflicts that we're looking at in

1366
01:25:22.479 --> 01:25:25.520
<v Speaker 1>this century. Let's let's talk about that.

1367
01:25:27.039 --> 01:25:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Uh yeah, I mean, I agree with you. When I

1368
01:25:30.079 --> 01:25:34.239
<v Speaker 2>joined the agency, Uh, India is one of those places

1369
01:25:34.279 --> 01:25:38.720
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to go to. I wanted to go to

1370
01:25:38.920 --> 01:25:42.159
<v Speaker 2>places that were as different from the US as I

1371
01:25:42.199 --> 01:25:46.159
<v Speaker 2>can get. I wanted a different experience, and in India,

1372
01:25:46.279 --> 01:25:48.560
<v Speaker 2>let me tell you it is. I don't know if

1373
01:25:48.600 --> 01:25:52.479
<v Speaker 2>you've ever been there, but it is a feast for

1374
01:25:52.560 --> 01:26:03.039
<v Speaker 2>the senses, fascinating place. I enjoyed my time in India. Uh.

1375
01:26:03.680 --> 01:26:05.680
<v Speaker 2>Work there is challenging.

1376
01:26:06.760 --> 01:26:06.920
<v Speaker 4>Uh.

1377
01:26:07.560 --> 01:26:12.880
<v Speaker 2>The Indians are all over you it. There are still

1378
01:26:13.399 --> 01:26:19.680
<v Speaker 2>significant elements of the Indian government and security services that

1379
01:26:19.920 --> 01:26:25.319
<v Speaker 2>grew up in a very pro Russian world. Uh. They

1380
01:26:25.960 --> 01:26:29.399
<v Speaker 2>were part of the non line movement. But I may

1381
01:26:29.399 --> 01:26:32.239
<v Speaker 2>tell you their buddy buddy with the Russians. And you know,

1382
01:26:32.239 --> 01:26:35.880
<v Speaker 2>the Russians are their main suppliers, their main trainers. UH.

1383
01:26:36.439 --> 01:26:43.840
<v Speaker 2>And we are viewed as as the Indians have three

1384
01:26:44.039 --> 01:26:48.520
<v Speaker 2>main enemies. The first one is obviously Pakistan. Uh, the

1385
01:26:48.560 --> 01:26:51.239
<v Speaker 2>second one is the US and the third was China.

1386
01:26:52.680 --> 01:26:54.840
<v Speaker 2>When I was there, what.

1387
01:26:55.199 --> 01:26:58.199
<v Speaker 1>Was your opinion of R A W and I.

1388
01:26:58.199 --> 01:27:05.640
<v Speaker 2>B Uh not bad there are I mean the I

1389
01:27:05.920 --> 01:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>the the I B is a good domestic security service.

1390
01:27:09.920 --> 01:27:17.600
<v Speaker 2>H R a W has Uh. I think a good

1391
01:27:17.720 --> 01:27:18.840
<v Speaker 2>regional coverage.

1392
01:27:19.520 --> 01:27:19.680
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

1393
01:27:20.760 --> 01:27:23.640
<v Speaker 2>There their officers are fairly well trained.

1394
01:27:24.119 --> 01:27:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

1395
01:27:24.640 --> 01:27:34.920
<v Speaker 2>They have good training program. Uh. The the Indian services

1396
01:27:35.680 --> 01:27:39.560
<v Speaker 2>are getting or getting better because they are being pushed

1397
01:27:40.600 --> 01:27:43.800
<v Speaker 2>to expand capabilities. When I was there, the Indians were

1398
01:27:43.800 --> 01:27:49.640
<v Speaker 2>still struggling with what they wanted to be. They were

1399
01:27:49.680 --> 01:27:55.079
<v Speaker 2>trying to develop strategies, what the future was going to be,

1400
01:27:55.239 --> 01:27:57.720
<v Speaker 2>what their role was going to be. Was it regional?

1401
01:27:57.760 --> 01:28:01.479
<v Speaker 2>Did it expand more? Uh? And one of the things,

1402
01:28:01.520 --> 01:28:06.199
<v Speaker 2>obviously was their intelligence capability and so they were trying

1403
01:28:06.199 --> 01:28:10.199
<v Speaker 2>to come to grips with that. Uh. You know. One

1404
01:28:10.239 --> 01:28:15.720
<v Speaker 2>of the the challenges. And I used to laugh with

1405
01:28:15.760 --> 01:28:17.800
<v Speaker 2>them because I was declared to them and I dealt

1406
01:28:17.800 --> 01:28:21.640
<v Speaker 2>with the with the Indian Services. One of the challenges

1407
01:28:21.640 --> 01:28:28.680
<v Speaker 2>they were facing was keeping, retaining and hiring employees because

1408
01:28:28.680 --> 01:28:30.800
<v Speaker 2>everybody says, oh, you know, India to the land of

1409
01:28:30.840 --> 01:28:34.600
<v Speaker 2>a billion people and they must have hundreds of thousands

1410
01:28:34.600 --> 01:28:38.199
<v Speaker 2>of surveillance and stuff. No, they were losing people to

1411
01:28:38.239 --> 01:28:39.560
<v Speaker 2>the IT industry.

1412
01:28:40.399 --> 01:28:43.039
<v Speaker 1>Makes sense, like the dot com boom in America. I

1413
01:28:43.039 --> 01:28:43.680
<v Speaker 1>mean we dealt with that.

1414
01:28:43.760 --> 01:28:45.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, you know, the guys were talent. It

1415
01:28:46.039 --> 01:28:49.199
<v Speaker 2>used to be the Indian Civil Service was a highly

1416
01:28:49.279 --> 01:28:55.920
<v Speaker 2>prestigious organization. They they went to schools, to colleges, they graduated,

1417
01:28:55.920 --> 01:28:58.960
<v Speaker 2>they have they call them batches almost like military academies

1418
01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:01.920
<v Speaker 2>where they all graduated stuff. And uh, it was good

1419
01:29:01.960 --> 01:29:04.760
<v Speaker 2>paying jobs. You got a pension, they gave you housing,

1420
01:29:04.800 --> 01:29:07.840
<v Speaker 2>all this kind of stuff. And then the IT boom

1421
01:29:07.920 --> 01:29:10.840
<v Speaker 2>came in, and you know it companies and call centers

1422
01:29:10.840 --> 01:29:15.000
<v Speaker 2>are paying three four, five, six times uh what an

1423
01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:18.239
<v Speaker 2>ib or raw officer would get. And they're saying, we're

1424
01:29:18.239 --> 01:29:21.279
<v Speaker 2>having a hard time. We're competing, and you know, the

1425
01:29:21.319 --> 01:29:24.000
<v Speaker 2>agency was faced the same thing with you know, we're

1426
01:29:24.039 --> 01:29:27.560
<v Speaker 2>competing with with for university graduates who can make three,

1427
01:29:27.640 --> 01:29:31.119
<v Speaker 2>four or five times what they make at the agency. Uh,

1428
01:29:31.279 --> 01:29:33.880
<v Speaker 2>but you know they were they were you know, we've

1429
01:29:33.920 --> 01:29:37.199
<v Speaker 2>we've seen it with all these these accusations of of

1430
01:29:37.239 --> 01:29:42.800
<v Speaker 2>the Indians assassinating seek separatists in different countries. Uh, they're

1431
01:29:42.840 --> 01:29:46.640
<v Speaker 2>they're starting to feel their oats. Yeah, and they're getting

1432
01:29:46.680 --> 01:29:50.159
<v Speaker 2>out there. And it's a multipolar world. Huh.

1433
01:29:50.199 --> 01:29:53.199
<v Speaker 1>It's a multipolar world, yes.

1434
01:29:53.760 --> 01:29:57.119
<v Speaker 2>Uh, in India is now. I think they have settled

1435
01:29:57.199 --> 01:30:02.680
<v Speaker 2>on the the abroad as they call it, the Indian

1436
01:30:02.680 --> 01:30:11.079
<v Speaker 2>Ocean area East Africa, their environment. But I think, you know, yeah,

1437
01:30:11.680 --> 01:30:16.279
<v Speaker 2>we look at them as instrumental in some of our

1438
01:30:16.359 --> 01:30:20.640
<v Speaker 2>strategies against China and in the Indian Ocean. India is

1439
01:30:20.680 --> 01:30:23.680
<v Speaker 2>never going to be the ally we need. And I

1440
01:30:23.680 --> 01:30:27.520
<v Speaker 2>don't say this maliciously or not, but for us to think,

1441
01:30:27.560 --> 01:30:30.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean we look at an ally as somebody with

1442
01:30:31.000 --> 01:30:35.079
<v Speaker 2>shared common interest and agreed upon goals. We're never going

1443
01:30:35.119 --> 01:30:38.560
<v Speaker 2>to get that from India. They have different goals, they

1444
01:30:38.560 --> 01:30:43.640
<v Speaker 2>have different interests, They have still a sense of a

1445
01:30:43.800 --> 01:30:47.239
<v Speaker 2>non aligned movement that they don't want to get tied

1446
01:30:47.279 --> 01:30:47.840
<v Speaker 2>to the US.

1447
01:30:48.560 --> 01:30:50.840
<v Speaker 1>What do you think of Like I believe it was

1448
01:30:50.840 --> 01:30:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Ambassador Blackwell pend Apiece and Foreign Affairs about how we

1449
01:30:55.000 --> 01:30:58.279
<v Speaker 1>should basically just arm up the Indians, and they're naturally

1450
01:30:58.319 --> 01:30:59.680
<v Speaker 1>going to do what we want them to do.

1451
01:31:00.560 --> 01:31:05.119
<v Speaker 2>Never do what we want them to do. If anything,

1452
01:31:05.159 --> 01:31:07.640
<v Speaker 2>they'll get pissed off if we if we assume they're

1453
01:31:07.640 --> 01:31:09.720
<v Speaker 2>gonna do what we want them to do. Uh, it's

1454
01:31:09.760 --> 01:31:11.920
<v Speaker 2>it's the Indian they don't like that they have And

1455
01:31:11.960 --> 01:31:14.000
<v Speaker 2>this is where we get into that wishful thinking.

1456
01:31:14.840 --> 01:31:15.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, we.

1457
01:31:15.640 --> 01:31:18.119
<v Speaker 2>View China as a threat. India must view China as

1458
01:31:18.119 --> 01:31:22.199
<v Speaker 2>the same threat. Uh. You know, you look at the religion.

1459
01:31:23.279 --> 01:31:27.880
<v Speaker 2>Pakistan views India as a threat. India doesn't view Pakistan

1460
01:31:27.880 --> 01:31:30.119
<v Speaker 2>as a threat. They them as an annoyance. They view

1461
01:31:30.239 --> 01:31:34.239
<v Speaker 2>China as a threat. China doesn't view India as a threat. Uh.

1462
01:31:34.600 --> 01:31:37.159
<v Speaker 2>They're they're a competitor. But there's no way that the

1463
01:31:37.159 --> 01:31:38.760
<v Speaker 2>Indians are going to be a threat to China. They're

1464
01:31:38.760 --> 01:31:40.600
<v Speaker 2>not going to invade China. They're not going to take over.

1465
01:31:40.920 --> 01:31:43.279
<v Speaker 2>They're not going to push China out of their spheres

1466
01:31:43.279 --> 01:31:50.319
<v Speaker 2>of influence, whereas China could do that to India. India

1467
01:31:50.359 --> 01:31:54.159
<v Speaker 2>doesn't want to have a problem with Pakistan. They understand that.

1468
01:31:54.239 --> 01:31:56.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, if you're going to be a power, a

1469
01:31:56.920 --> 01:32:00.800
<v Speaker 2>regional power, at least you can't spend time with bullshit

1470
01:32:00.920 --> 01:32:06.640
<v Speaker 2>border problems. The pakistanis. They can't afford India not to

1471
01:32:06.680 --> 01:32:11.760
<v Speaker 2>be a threat. The Pakistani military has so much power

1472
01:32:11.920 --> 01:32:16.119
<v Speaker 2>and authority and money because they have blown up the

1473
01:32:16.199 --> 01:32:19.439
<v Speaker 2>Indian threat to such a large extent. And if they

1474
01:32:19.520 --> 01:32:22.119
<v Speaker 2>turn around and say, hey, let's make peace with India,

1475
01:32:22.119 --> 01:32:25.920
<v Speaker 2>which India would probably buy, then someone's gonna say, well,

1476
01:32:25.920 --> 01:32:28.119
<v Speaker 2>why do we need all this crap that we give you?

1477
01:32:28.279 --> 01:32:31.600
<v Speaker 4>So so India is basically the counter narcotics program of

1478
01:32:31.680 --> 01:32:35.039
<v Speaker 4>the eighties for Pakistan's military and intelligence.

1479
01:32:35.800 --> 01:32:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, you can say it that way. You know,

1480
01:32:39.279 --> 01:32:41.159
<v Speaker 2>I just India is not going to give us what

1481
01:32:41.199 --> 01:32:45.640
<v Speaker 2>we want. They'll they'll give us peacemeal stuff, They'll give

1482
01:32:45.720 --> 01:32:50.960
<v Speaker 2>us things where they think they will win more. It's

1483
01:32:51.000 --> 01:32:52.920
<v Speaker 2>sort of a you know, a trade off. But they're

1484
01:32:52.920 --> 01:32:55.239
<v Speaker 2>not going to They're not going to be for us

1485
01:32:55.279 --> 01:32:57.359
<v Speaker 2>like Japan is or Australia or.

1486
01:32:59.359 --> 01:33:02.000
<v Speaker 4>You bring up an interesting point because I always wondered

1487
01:33:02.079 --> 01:33:06.840
<v Speaker 4>why we didn't more, you know, court India more, because

1488
01:33:06.840 --> 01:33:10.079
<v Speaker 4>it seems as though there are a regional counterpoint to

1489
01:33:10.159 --> 01:33:13.439
<v Speaker 4>China that that that we have a lot of alliances,

1490
01:33:13.840 --> 01:33:20.000
<v Speaker 4>but what is it that uh India you know, wants

1491
01:33:20.039 --> 01:33:23.079
<v Speaker 4>for themselves that that wouldn't be in alignment with the

1492
01:33:23.199 --> 01:33:24.960
<v Speaker 4>US's strategic goals.

1493
01:33:25.840 --> 01:33:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think I think India. India wants to I

1494
01:33:32.399 --> 01:33:36.720
<v Speaker 2>think be the premier power in the Indian Ocean. Uh.

1495
01:33:38.640 --> 01:33:41.159
<v Speaker 2>The US is uncomfortable with letting anybody be a premier

1496
01:33:41.239 --> 01:33:46.159
<v Speaker 2>power anywhere. Uh. They want to have the greatest extent

1497
01:33:46.199 --> 01:33:52.000
<v Speaker 2>of influence in East Africa. UH, We're probably not comfortable

1498
01:33:52.000 --> 01:33:55.000
<v Speaker 2>with that. They want to be able to secure the

1499
01:33:55.039 --> 01:33:58.079
<v Speaker 2>lines of communication into the Middle East because of oil

1500
01:33:58.439 --> 01:34:03.079
<v Speaker 2>and the oil coming back and forth. We don't want that.

1501
01:34:03.600 --> 01:34:08.479
<v Speaker 2>I'll give you. I'll give you a fine example. During

1502
01:34:08.479 --> 01:34:13.199
<v Speaker 2>the Iran Iraq War. Iran was mining the Gulf and

1503
01:34:13.319 --> 01:34:17.720
<v Speaker 2>attacking shipping and stuff, and the US sent in the

1504
01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:21.439
<v Speaker 2>navy to secure an escort the ships out and secure

1505
01:34:21.760 --> 01:34:28.039
<v Speaker 2>the Gulf, and we guaranteed the free passage. And this

1506
01:34:28.079 --> 01:34:30.720
<v Speaker 2>is where you get to You can't do wishful thinking

1507
01:34:30.880 --> 01:34:33.920
<v Speaker 2>or mirror imaging. Because we saw ourselves as we are

1508
01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:38.000
<v Speaker 2>now guaranteeing freedom of the seas. China and India saw

1509
01:34:38.039 --> 01:34:41.720
<v Speaker 2>the opposite. Their attitude was if the US can keep

1510
01:34:41.760 --> 01:34:45.680
<v Speaker 2>the Straits of Hormuz open, they can close them and

1511
01:34:45.720 --> 01:34:48.039
<v Speaker 2>in a time of conflict, that's exactly what they're going

1512
01:34:48.119 --> 01:34:50.560
<v Speaker 2>to do. So we need to build naval capability to

1513
01:34:50.600 --> 01:34:53.199
<v Speaker 2>get in there and keep the straights open ourselves, which

1514
01:34:53.239 --> 01:34:55.760
<v Speaker 2>is one of the reasons why the Chinese are starting

1515
01:34:55.760 --> 01:34:58.640
<v Speaker 2>to build a big navy that will eventually start to

1516
01:34:58.640 --> 01:35:01.119
<v Speaker 2>go into the Indian Ocean, which is why the Indians

1517
01:35:01.119 --> 01:35:03.119
<v Speaker 2>are going to get started. You know, we got to

1518
01:35:03.119 --> 01:35:05.560
<v Speaker 2>stop the Chinese. We need to build a big ocean

1519
01:35:05.560 --> 01:35:08.439
<v Speaker 2>because both these countries get a significant portion of oil

1520
01:35:08.479 --> 01:35:12.520
<v Speaker 2>from the Middle East, so in that regard, you know,

1521
01:35:12.600 --> 01:35:16.239
<v Speaker 2>we're all going to be competing for space and primacy

1522
01:35:16.399 --> 01:35:17.199
<v Speaker 2>in that area.

1523
01:35:18.439 --> 01:35:22.119
<v Speaker 1>So I mean, look, the United States Army has been

1524
01:35:22.159 --> 01:35:25.560
<v Speaker 1>conducting training exercises for the Indians. They did one this

1525
01:35:25.640 --> 01:35:28.199
<v Speaker 1>last year, or in twenty twenty three, they did one,

1526
01:35:29.279 --> 01:35:32.199
<v Speaker 1>you know, not on the Chinese border, but within like

1527
01:35:32.239 --> 01:35:36.520
<v Speaker 1>one hundred kilometers. Like, this relationship exists, and I just

1528
01:35:36.560 --> 01:35:38.199
<v Speaker 1>wanted to kind of probe you a little bit as

1529
01:35:38.199 --> 01:35:41.039
<v Speaker 1>far as like, what do you think is a realistic

1530
01:35:41.840 --> 01:35:44.039
<v Speaker 1>US India security relationship.

1531
01:35:45.880 --> 01:35:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think one of the first things is, and

1532
01:35:49.680 --> 01:35:51.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if it's going to happen, but what

1533
01:35:52.000 --> 01:35:54.840
<v Speaker 2>the Indians would like to see in order to improve

1534
01:35:55.159 --> 01:36:00.840
<v Speaker 2>that relationship is for US to begin divesty our obsession

1535
01:36:00.840 --> 01:36:05.920
<v Speaker 2>with Pakistan. That has always been a sticking point with him.

1536
01:36:05.920 --> 01:36:09.159
<v Speaker 2>When I was there, Uh, the Indians were always pushing

1537
01:36:09.239 --> 01:36:14.199
<v Speaker 2>you need to help us with Pakistan. Pakistan is sponsoring

1538
01:36:14.319 --> 01:36:18.560
<v Speaker 2>terrorist attacks against India. And the US was so heavy

1539
01:36:18.600 --> 01:36:23.279
<v Speaker 2>invested in Pakistan giving us a card or into Afghanistan,

1540
01:36:23.720 --> 01:36:26.640
<v Speaker 2>that we weren't about to upset the Apple card.

1541
01:36:26.439 --> 01:36:30.960
<v Speaker 1>Could that change now with the with our extraction from Afghanistan?

1542
01:36:31.520 --> 01:36:35.279
<v Speaker 2>It can if the US policy starts to shift, and

1543
01:36:35.319 --> 01:36:38.159
<v Speaker 2>if the US has got to make a clear decision

1544
01:36:38.840 --> 01:36:42.359
<v Speaker 2>we're choosing India over Pakistan because Pakistan has pretty much

1545
01:36:42.399 --> 01:36:46.720
<v Speaker 2>chosen China over the US, which is yeah, freaking the

1546
01:36:46.760 --> 01:36:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Indians out. Uh. And and and now China is working

1547
01:36:51.239 --> 01:36:54.439
<v Speaker 2>on port facilities in Pakistan and the Indians are really

1548
01:36:54.560 --> 01:36:58.039
<v Speaker 2>getting getting tense about that. Uh. But we've got to

1549
01:36:58.039 --> 01:37:02.199
<v Speaker 2>make a very clear situation. The Indians are are interested

1550
01:37:02.439 --> 01:37:08.840
<v Speaker 2>in getting from US military. Know how, everybody has seen

1551
01:37:08.920 --> 01:37:13.279
<v Speaker 2>how the US military functions, and they understand, you know,

1552
01:37:13.319 --> 01:37:16.399
<v Speaker 2>if you're going to fight a war, that's the model

1553
01:37:16.479 --> 01:37:20.680
<v Speaker 2>to follow right now, So yeah, they're going to host

1554
01:37:21.279 --> 01:37:24.600
<v Speaker 2>US forces in India. The Navy the air Force, the army.

1555
01:37:24.800 --> 01:37:26.520
<v Speaker 2>They're going to want to do joint things because they

1556
01:37:26.560 --> 01:37:30.600
<v Speaker 2>want to learn from us. But you know, the trust

1557
01:37:30.680 --> 01:37:33.680
<v Speaker 2>issue remains. Are these guys gonna ditch us as soon

1558
01:37:33.720 --> 01:37:35.119
<v Speaker 2>as Pakistan comes calling?

1559
01:37:35.439 --> 01:37:35.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

1560
01:37:37.079 --> 01:37:42.079
<v Speaker 2>We you know, not to not to not to beat

1561
01:37:42.119 --> 01:37:44.279
<v Speaker 2>the US about the hidden and shoulders, but but our

1562
01:37:44.359 --> 01:37:49.680
<v Speaker 2>reputation over the last fifteen twenty years has suffered significantly.

1563
01:37:51.359 --> 01:37:55.079
<v Speaker 2>We are not the reliable partners that people used to

1564
01:37:55.079 --> 01:37:58.199
<v Speaker 2>think we were. Right. You know, you got you got

1565
01:37:58.239 --> 01:38:03.600
<v Speaker 2>the Europeans right now planning for the eventuality that if

1566
01:38:03.640 --> 01:38:06.319
<v Speaker 2>Trump gets elected and decides to yank US out of NATO,

1567
01:38:06.680 --> 01:38:09.720
<v Speaker 2>they're on their own. So how do they cushion themselves?

1568
01:38:09.760 --> 01:38:13.079
<v Speaker 2>And other countries are watching them, saying if you're if

1569
01:38:13.159 --> 01:38:15.680
<v Speaker 2>if the Europeans can't rely on them, we surely can't.

1570
01:38:16.960 --> 01:38:19.359
<v Speaker 2>So so you know a good deal is going to

1571
01:38:19.439 --> 01:38:24.039
<v Speaker 2>be We've got to rebuild those those alliances, those trusts, Uh,

1572
01:38:24.079 --> 01:38:27.960
<v Speaker 2>those capabilities. It's you. I'm just I know I'm preaching

1573
01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:31.479
<v Speaker 2>the choir and I'm just babbling here. Uh, but people

1574
01:38:31.520 --> 01:38:36.960
<v Speaker 2>don't understand. Yes, the US has untold bases overseas. You know,

1575
01:38:37.039 --> 01:38:40.119
<v Speaker 2>how the hell do you think we project power. Uh,

1576
01:38:40.159 --> 01:38:42.079
<v Speaker 2>you're not. You're not gonna land. You're not gonna go

1577
01:38:42.119 --> 01:38:47.359
<v Speaker 2>from Missouri to to Pakistan overnight. You need bases, you

1578
01:38:47.359 --> 01:38:49.439
<v Speaker 2>need facilities. How do you think we get are wounded?

1579
01:38:49.760 --> 01:38:52.800
<v Speaker 2>Where do we get them to Frankfurt? You pull on

1580
01:38:52.920 --> 01:38:55.600
<v Speaker 2>that crap out and we're we're out. We're out of

1581
01:38:55.600 --> 01:38:57.800
<v Speaker 2>the Middle East, We're out of South Asia, We're out

1582
01:38:57.800 --> 01:38:58.239
<v Speaker 2>of all.

1583
01:38:58.079 --> 01:38:59.720
<v Speaker 1>These places isolated island.

1584
01:39:00.479 --> 01:39:05.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so in everybody in all these countries are looking, uh,

1585
01:39:05.399 --> 01:39:08.199
<v Speaker 2>and they're looking with with with two ideas of mine.

1586
01:39:08.479 --> 01:39:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Is the US dependable and trustworthy? And if the answer

1587
01:39:12.800 --> 01:39:14.800
<v Speaker 2>is no, how do we slip in and take over?

1588
01:39:15.399 --> 01:39:17.399
<v Speaker 2>And I don't mean, you know, conquered, but how do

1589
01:39:17.439 --> 01:39:20.479
<v Speaker 2>we fill in that vacuum? Because that's there's going to

1590
01:39:20.520 --> 01:39:22.279
<v Speaker 2>be a vacuum there and we need to fill it

1591
01:39:22.359 --> 01:39:23.479
<v Speaker 2>sooner rather than later.

1592
01:39:24.720 --> 01:39:27.640
<v Speaker 4>I know we've had some, uh, some challenges dealing with

1593
01:39:27.680 --> 01:39:30.720
<v Speaker 4>Pakistan in the past, and partly because we've had an

1594
01:39:30.760 --> 01:39:34.359
<v Speaker 4>ambassador too that had been in love with Pakistan and

1595
01:39:34.399 --> 01:39:37.079
<v Speaker 4>just would not let anything happen in their yard. Do

1596
01:39:37.920 --> 01:39:42.000
<v Speaker 4>do countries like India do they have that benefit also

1597
01:39:42.079 --> 01:39:45.640
<v Speaker 4>where ambassadors will just just go to bat for them.

1598
01:39:46.119 --> 01:39:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Uh, it's it's it's it's interesting to watch. And not

1599
01:39:51.840 --> 01:39:52.800
<v Speaker 2>just ambassadors.

1600
01:39:53.319 --> 01:39:53.760
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

1601
01:39:54.199 --> 01:40:01.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's a reason why we have two and

1602
01:40:02.079 --> 01:40:07.039
<v Speaker 2>three year assignments, and that's to avoid client titus. And

1603
01:40:07.279 --> 01:40:11.520
<v Speaker 2>the longer you stay in a country, the more you

1604
01:40:11.560 --> 01:40:15.439
<v Speaker 2>get client titus. I have I have seen ambassadors in

1605
01:40:15.479 --> 01:40:20.960
<v Speaker 2>India who are are a big cheerleader for that country.

1606
01:40:20.680 --> 01:40:23.560
<v Speaker 1>And there are appointees they don't know anything about diplomacy.

1607
01:40:24.439 --> 01:40:27.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and and you know, and they forget. I mean

1608
01:40:27.199 --> 01:40:31.079
<v Speaker 2>I worked for one ambassador who was he is independently wealthy. Uh,

1609
01:40:31.399 --> 01:40:34.039
<v Speaker 2>so you can't say, you know, you don't forget who

1610
01:40:34.039 --> 01:40:39.560
<v Speaker 2>pays your salary. He didn't even take a salary. Uh.

1611
01:40:39.640 --> 01:40:42.840
<v Speaker 2>And and you know they see they see it to

1612
01:40:42.880 --> 01:40:47.159
<v Speaker 2>some extent from the locals eyes, from the Indian eyes,

1613
01:40:47.279 --> 01:40:51.720
<v Speaker 2>and they instead of becoming a representative of the US

1614
01:40:51.840 --> 01:40:54.840
<v Speaker 2>toward that country, they become representative that country toward the US.

1615
01:40:55.039 --> 01:40:55.239
<v Speaker 3>Right.

1616
01:40:55.479 --> 01:40:58.359
<v Speaker 2>And a lot of these countries work really hard to

1617
01:40:58.479 --> 01:41:02.359
<v Speaker 2>establish that relations. They do it to our chiefs of station. Uh.

1618
01:41:02.520 --> 01:41:04.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's nothing like if you're the chief of

1619
01:41:04.560 --> 01:41:08.039
<v Speaker 2>station and the director of the CIA comes to visit,

1620
01:41:08.520 --> 01:41:11.399
<v Speaker 2>that the local services can get the director of meeting

1621
01:41:11.439 --> 01:41:14.720
<v Speaker 2>with the president or Prime minister. They take them on

1622
01:41:14.760 --> 01:41:17.960
<v Speaker 2>this trip and they go here and he says almost

1623
01:41:18.000 --> 01:41:20.920
<v Speaker 2>kind and the glory goes back to you always got

1624
01:41:20.920 --> 01:41:25.239
<v Speaker 2>everything plugged in. Uh, you don't want to upset the

1625
01:41:25.279 --> 01:41:27.640
<v Speaker 2>Apple card. They're making you look good.

1626
01:41:27.920 --> 01:41:28.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1627
01:41:28.399 --> 01:41:30.840
<v Speaker 2>Right, So you know you tend to be hands offish.

1628
01:41:30.880 --> 01:41:32.359
<v Speaker 2>We don't want to we don't want to press them

1629
01:41:32.359 --> 01:41:34.239
<v Speaker 2>on some issues. And I've seen that where where you

1630
01:41:34.239 --> 01:41:35.880
<v Speaker 2>know the US policy is we got to press them

1631
01:41:35.880 --> 01:41:38.640
<v Speaker 2>on it said, oh, you don't want to upset them. Uh.

1632
01:41:38.680 --> 01:41:43.479
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, it goes, It happens, and it happens not infrequently.

1633
01:41:43.960 --> 01:41:46.119
<v Speaker 1>So what was what was the next stop for you?

1634
01:41:46.199 --> 01:41:50.720
<v Speaker 1>After Chief of Station of New Delhi. Oh that was

1635
01:41:51.840 --> 01:41:54.720
<v Speaker 1>out of all bizarre things. I went to be the

1636
01:41:54.800 --> 01:41:58.079
<v Speaker 1>scholar in residence in Miami, University of Miami.

1637
01:41:58.960 --> 01:42:05.800
<v Speaker 2>Uh. My then wife, her parents had moved to Florida. Uh.

1638
01:42:05.840 --> 01:42:11.119
<v Speaker 2>Her father had had his second heart by paths and

1639
01:42:11.199 --> 01:42:14.760
<v Speaker 2>her mother was recovering from breast cancer. So we needed

1640
01:42:14.800 --> 01:42:19.680
<v Speaker 2>to ah be close. So there was an opening where

1641
01:42:19.840 --> 01:42:24.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, I taught uh national security issues and I

1642
01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:27.560
<v Speaker 2>did a couple of years there, uh, and then went

1643
01:42:27.640 --> 01:42:32.279
<v Speaker 2>back up to Washington to do uh counterintelligence for CTC

1644
01:42:32.720 --> 01:42:33.880
<v Speaker 2>and retired out of there.

1645
01:42:35.359 --> 01:42:38.960
<v Speaker 1>And how is uh, how have you enjoyed retirement? What's

1646
01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:39.359
<v Speaker 1>that like?

1647
01:42:40.319 --> 01:42:45.199
<v Speaker 2>Oh? God, I love it. Uh, I got I gotta

1648
01:42:45.199 --> 01:42:51.560
<v Speaker 2>tell you. It's uh being in the director of operations,

1649
01:42:51.600 --> 01:42:58.079
<v Speaker 2>especially overseas, but in some headquarters assignment UH from the military. Uh.

1650
01:42:58.600 --> 01:43:06.000
<v Speaker 2>It is a demanding job. Twelve hour days are the norm,

1651
01:43:06.039 --> 01:43:11.279
<v Speaker 2>working six five and a half six seven days a week,

1652
01:43:11.439 --> 01:43:17.079
<v Speaker 2>not unknown. When I was doing a rock I would

1653
01:43:17.079 --> 01:43:19.159
<v Speaker 2>be in the office at five point thirty in the morning,

1654
01:43:19.199 --> 01:43:22.239
<v Speaker 2>go home and ten at night when I didn't sleep

1655
01:43:22.279 --> 01:43:28.239
<v Speaker 2>in the office. You know it even overseas, you're you

1656
01:43:28.239 --> 01:43:30.720
<v Speaker 2>know you especially when you start out you have a

1657
01:43:30.760 --> 01:43:33.399
<v Speaker 2>regular job and then you got to do your agency job,

1658
01:43:33.439 --> 01:43:36.079
<v Speaker 2>which tends to be at night and weekends and stuff.

1659
01:43:36.399 --> 01:43:41.319
<v Speaker 2>So it takes as toll after a while. It is

1660
01:43:41.399 --> 01:43:47.720
<v Speaker 2>also it's an isolating job psychologically, and then you retire

1661
01:43:47.880 --> 01:43:51.199
<v Speaker 2>and it's like it's it's When I went through the

1662
01:43:51.199 --> 01:43:58.000
<v Speaker 2>retirement program, they had a speaker who was a psychologist

1663
01:43:58.079 --> 01:44:03.159
<v Speaker 2>and he specialized in retirement stuff and OLASA and he

1664
01:44:03.239 --> 01:44:12.640
<v Speaker 2>said the number one thing that that people extole about

1665
01:44:12.680 --> 01:44:17.279
<v Speaker 2>retirement is sleep. And the fact that they can sleep.

1666
01:44:19.479 --> 01:44:23.079
<v Speaker 2>So it's it's it's nice, it's it's different. You you

1667
01:44:23.079 --> 01:44:24.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, like you're in this. You're in the agency,

1668
01:44:24.720 --> 01:44:27.800
<v Speaker 2>and you're you're very isolated. You're in the building, you

1669
01:44:27.840 --> 01:44:30.840
<v Speaker 2>can't you can't take phones in. You don't have access

1670
01:44:30.960 --> 01:44:36.279
<v Speaker 2>to streams information. Uh people outside. You can't really tell

1671
01:44:36.359 --> 01:44:38.720
<v Speaker 2>what you do. You can't discuss your day even when

1672
01:44:38.720 --> 01:44:41.760
<v Speaker 2>you go home, especially overseas, and you go home, you

1673
01:44:41.800 --> 01:44:44.359
<v Speaker 2>can't talk to your spouse and say, how how was

1674
01:44:44.399 --> 01:44:48.000
<v Speaker 2>your day. You don't know if somebody's listening. Uh. So

1675
01:44:48.079 --> 01:44:51.680
<v Speaker 2>it tends to isolate you and you retire. And I

1676
01:44:51.680 --> 01:44:54.239
<v Speaker 2>mean a guy I worked for retired. He's teaching at

1677
01:44:54.479 --> 01:44:56.560
<v Speaker 2>one of the universities. He is. I don't I can't

1678
01:44:56.560 --> 01:45:00.000
<v Speaker 2>see ever going back. I am. I am now so plugged.

1679
01:45:00.119 --> 01:45:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Did so much information, talking to people and all this

1680
01:45:03.319 --> 01:45:07.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff, which you don't do even inside the agency.

1681
01:45:08.520 --> 01:45:10.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, we function on the need to know basis.

1682
01:45:11.039 --> 01:45:13.119
<v Speaker 2>So I'm not telling the guy next to me who

1683
01:45:13.159 --> 01:45:17.920
<v Speaker 2>sits next to me necessarily what I'm doing or how

1684
01:45:18.000 --> 01:45:20.319
<v Speaker 2>my cases are gone, because he doesn't have a need

1685
01:45:20.359 --> 01:45:23.439
<v Speaker 2>to know. She doesn't have a need to know. So

1686
01:45:23.479 --> 01:45:26.239
<v Speaker 2>it does tend to get you isolated. That changes when

1687
01:45:26.239 --> 01:45:28.680
<v Speaker 2>you retire.

1688
01:45:28.960 --> 01:45:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Where are you at today? What are you doing now?

1689
01:45:32.319 --> 01:45:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Talking to you?

1690
01:45:34.840 --> 01:45:35.960
<v Speaker 3>And we appreciate it.

1691
01:45:36.399 --> 01:45:39.600
<v Speaker 2>No, I'm not doing anything. It's you know, I live

1692
01:45:39.640 --> 01:45:46.960
<v Speaker 2>in d C. For a while after I retired. I

1693
01:45:47.000 --> 01:45:51.800
<v Speaker 2>did some contracting work that about for five years or

1694
01:45:51.880 --> 01:45:57.920
<v Speaker 2>so after I retired, and you know, it's okay. A

1695
01:45:57.960 --> 01:46:01.079
<v Speaker 2>lot of people turn around and go back working for

1696
01:46:01.119 --> 01:46:05.239
<v Speaker 2>the agency as a contractor. It's I got to do.

1697
01:46:05.399 --> 01:46:10.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm fortunate. I got to do pretty much I want

1698
01:46:10.920 --> 01:46:15.720
<v Speaker 2>when I joined the agency, and so there's nothing left

1699
01:46:15.880 --> 01:46:18.840
<v Speaker 2>to do, and other than it would be there collecting

1700
01:46:18.840 --> 01:46:23.760
<v Speaker 2>a paycheck, which is not intellectually stimulating for me. I

1701
01:46:23.800 --> 01:46:26.800
<v Speaker 2>write a blog just to keep my you know, my

1702
01:46:26.920 --> 01:46:30.640
<v Speaker 2>mind going. I read I got a twelve year old

1703
01:46:30.760 --> 01:46:32.880
<v Speaker 2>daughter who's in school that you know, sucks up a

1704
01:46:32.880 --> 01:46:38.720
<v Speaker 2>lot of my time, wonderfully so, and not much.

1705
01:46:39.159 --> 01:46:41.000
<v Speaker 1>Where Where can people find your website?

1706
01:46:42.840 --> 01:46:48.600
<v Speaker 2>It's called the Debrief, a rundown of today's national security interest.

1707
01:46:48.680 --> 01:46:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I should have given you something, but I'm too goddamn

1708
01:46:53.079 --> 01:46:55.920
<v Speaker 2>lazy to do anything about it. Again, it's, you know,

1709
01:46:56.079 --> 01:47:00.399
<v Speaker 2>it's the website. The blog is is we'll put it

1710
01:47:00.399 --> 01:47:01.039
<v Speaker 2>in the description.

1711
01:47:01.159 --> 01:47:04.600
<v Speaker 4>Yes, it's uh, for those of you listening, it's debrief,

1712
01:47:05.279 --> 01:47:08.920
<v Speaker 4>Uh debrief A rundown d E B R I E

1713
01:47:09.039 --> 01:47:13.680
<v Speaker 4>F A r U N D O w N dot com.

1714
01:47:14.119 --> 01:47:19.479
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. It's it's geared toward non professionals. Uh, it's

1715
01:47:20.039 --> 01:47:25.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, I believe that it is important for layman

1716
01:47:25.600 --> 01:47:30.560
<v Speaker 2>the people out there to understand how intelligence functions, because

1717
01:47:31.239 --> 01:47:34.800
<v Speaker 2>we go to war or not based on intelligence. It

1718
01:47:34.880 --> 01:47:37.720
<v Speaker 2>affects our lives whether we know it or not. And

1719
01:47:37.800 --> 01:47:41.680
<v Speaker 2>while people do not have access to sources and methods,

1720
01:47:41.960 --> 01:47:44.800
<v Speaker 2>they should understand how it works. Uh uh and the

1721
01:47:44.920 --> 01:47:48.039
<v Speaker 2>complexities involved, because again, it's not it's not what you

1722
01:47:48.079 --> 01:47:50.640
<v Speaker 2>see in Hollywood. It's not some guys SIT's in computer

1723
01:47:50.680 --> 01:47:52.760
<v Speaker 2>flips to switch and he's got all the cameras in

1724
01:47:52.800 --> 01:47:55.920
<v Speaker 2>the world pouring in there. It doesn't work. It is.

1725
01:47:56.000 --> 01:48:01.319
<v Speaker 2>It is a different skill set. It is labor intensive. Anyway,

1726
01:48:01.600 --> 01:48:04.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm babbling, but it is. And every now and then

1727
01:48:04.239 --> 01:48:07.399
<v Speaker 2>I babble on about what's going on in the world.

1728
01:48:07.640 --> 01:48:10.880
<v Speaker 1>That's great, No, Lewis, this has been like a super

1729
01:48:10.960 --> 01:48:14.079
<v Speaker 1>informative episode and actually I would love to have you

1730
01:48:14.199 --> 01:48:17.560
<v Speaker 1>back at some point to talk like like maybe zero

1731
01:48:17.600 --> 01:48:22.159
<v Speaker 1>in on some specific like geopolitical issues. But this has

1732
01:48:22.199 --> 01:48:23.680
<v Speaker 1>been a this has been a great conversation.

1733
01:48:23.760 --> 01:48:25.680
<v Speaker 2>I'd be happy to come back to this. There's no

1734
01:48:25.840 --> 01:48:28.760
<v Speaker 2>case officer on Earth who doesn't want to babble to

1735
01:48:28.800 --> 01:48:30.840
<v Speaker 2>an audience and say listen.

1736
01:48:30.600 --> 01:48:33.199
<v Speaker 3>To me, Well, we we deeply appreciate it.

1737
01:48:33.359 --> 01:48:35.800
<v Speaker 4>I don't want to keep you too long, but I

1738
01:48:35.800 --> 01:48:37.560
<v Speaker 4>do want to ask you one question about your time,

1739
01:48:38.319 --> 01:48:42.119
<v Speaker 4>as you know, doing counterintelligence. We had James Olsen on

1740
01:48:43.520 --> 01:48:45.520
<v Speaker 4>you know, who was Director of counter Intelligence for a while,

1741
01:48:45.560 --> 01:48:48.439
<v Speaker 4>and he talked about how it's very different than being

1742
01:48:48.439 --> 01:48:52.000
<v Speaker 4>a case officer and that it if you let it

1743
01:48:52.039 --> 01:48:55.680
<v Speaker 4>get to you, it can make you very paranoid. And

1744
01:48:56.119 --> 01:48:59.760
<v Speaker 4>how was that for you ending your career in a

1745
01:48:59.800 --> 01:49:01.920
<v Speaker 4>sea ipost.

1746
01:49:01.600 --> 01:49:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've I'll give you the the spiel should be

1747
01:49:07.000 --> 01:49:11.039
<v Speaker 2>that every case officer does counterintelligence. It's it's the only

1748
01:49:11.119 --> 01:49:15.439
<v Speaker 2>way you survive in the field. And I've had several

1749
01:49:15.479 --> 01:49:21.920
<v Speaker 2>counterintelligence positions. Mister Olsen is you know, the term is

1750
01:49:22.359 --> 01:49:25.600
<v Speaker 2>used too loosely nowadays, but it does apply to him

1751
01:49:25.800 --> 01:49:30.520
<v Speaker 2>that he is a living legend. He is really good

1752
01:49:30.560 --> 01:49:33.960
<v Speaker 2>at what he does, and he's he's right. The more

1753
01:49:34.000 --> 01:49:38.039
<v Speaker 2>you do it, the more paranoid you become, because you

1754
01:49:38.199 --> 01:49:44.560
<v Speaker 2>understand what can happen. And a good counterintelligence officer understands

1755
01:49:44.640 --> 01:49:49.039
<v Speaker 2>all the possibilities, all the permutations, and starts looking to

1756
01:49:49.079 --> 01:49:54.159
<v Speaker 2>see which is actually the case in this situation. But

1757
01:49:54.279 --> 01:49:59.880
<v Speaker 2>it does. I tell you I have been retired since

1758
01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:06.680
<v Speaker 2>twenty ten, I still look for surveillance. I step out

1759
01:50:06.720 --> 01:50:09.239
<v Speaker 2>of my house and the first thing I do is

1760
01:50:09.279 --> 01:50:10.800
<v Speaker 2>I look up and down the street to see what

1761
01:50:10.840 --> 01:50:12.600
<v Speaker 2>cars are there? Do I know the cars? Are the

1762
01:50:12.640 --> 01:50:14.680
<v Speaker 2>people sitting in the cars? What are they doing? And

1763
01:50:14.720 --> 01:50:18.039
<v Speaker 2>it's stupid because nobody's gonna be following me. I'm nobody

1764
01:50:18.079 --> 01:50:21.920
<v Speaker 2>other than you know if it's criminal activity. But just

1765
01:50:22.000 --> 01:50:25.880
<v Speaker 2>like like an army officer can never look at a

1766
01:50:25.880 --> 01:50:29.960
<v Speaker 2>piece of terrain without thinking, how do I hold it?

1767
01:50:30.039 --> 01:50:33.199
<v Speaker 2>How do I take it? A case officer looks at everything.

1768
01:50:33.199 --> 01:50:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's a good dead drop. Oh that's a good

1769
01:50:35.640 --> 01:50:39.039
<v Speaker 2>meeting site. Oh I can turn. I mean I turn corners,

1770
01:50:39.920 --> 01:50:41.560
<v Speaker 2>and I do it in a fashion that gives me

1771
01:50:41.600 --> 01:50:44.279
<v Speaker 2>a logical way to look behind me. So, yeah, you

1772
01:50:44.399 --> 01:50:47.319
<v Speaker 2>do get a degree of paranoia.

1773
01:50:48.920 --> 01:50:49.319
<v Speaker 3>You do.

1774
01:50:51.680 --> 01:50:58.600
<v Speaker 2>You do get jaded. I am not judgmental about Yeah,

1775
01:50:58.720 --> 01:51:02.680
<v Speaker 2>maybe I am, but I'm not stunned by the things

1776
01:51:02.720 --> 01:51:07.439
<v Speaker 2>people do. Uhh. I gotta say, I've probably seen it all.

1777
01:51:08.399 --> 01:51:11.039
<v Speaker 2>Uh and I have dealt with people who have done

1778
01:51:11.079 --> 01:51:13.479
<v Speaker 2>it all. And and there you know people that I

1779
01:51:13.520 --> 01:51:17.680
<v Speaker 2>would never have over my house for dinner. Ah. So

1780
01:51:17.800 --> 01:51:24.039
<v Speaker 2>it does skew your view of people and life in general.

1781
01:51:24.960 --> 01:51:30.439
<v Speaker 2>H it it again. I apologize for the landings, but

1782
01:51:30.439 --> 01:51:32.039
<v Speaker 2>it does fuck you up beyond belief.

1783
01:51:32.159 --> 01:51:33.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I get it.

1784
01:51:33.279 --> 01:51:36.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's got to be hard too.

1785
01:51:36.319 --> 01:51:39.479
<v Speaker 4>Because you could potentially ruin somebody's career if if like

1786
01:51:39.520 --> 01:51:43.119
<v Speaker 4>you're wrong and you know uh oh yeah, but but

1787
01:51:43.239 --> 01:51:45.640
<v Speaker 4>you but you ruin your job if you're if you

1788
01:51:45.760 --> 01:51:47.000
<v Speaker 4>don't pursue it.

1789
01:51:47.520 --> 01:51:49.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's it's it's.

1790
01:51:49.079 --> 01:51:51.039
<v Speaker 2>It's a high wire act. I mean, you know, it's

1791
01:51:51.079 --> 01:51:54.000
<v Speaker 2>always this just just like what you just did right

1792
01:51:54.079 --> 01:51:56.239
<v Speaker 2>now is what a CIOF is going to be doing.

1793
01:51:56.600 --> 01:51:59.079
<v Speaker 2>I could do this, this could happen here it is

1794
01:51:59.159 --> 01:52:03.720
<v Speaker 2>and you start looking a different permutations and start spinning

1795
01:52:03.720 --> 01:52:04.079
<v Speaker 2>you up.

1796
01:52:04.319 --> 01:52:07.520
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah, it seems like a tough job. Let me

1797
01:52:07.520 --> 01:52:11.840
<v Speaker 4>get some questions real quick. Olms, thank you very much. Headphone?

1798
01:52:12.560 --> 01:52:13.439
<v Speaker 2>Is that chilly cool?

1799
01:52:13.840 --> 01:52:14.239
<v Speaker 3>Thank you?

1800
01:52:14.960 --> 01:52:16.760
<v Speaker 4>That's probably some meaning that I just don't get I'm

1801
01:52:16.800 --> 01:52:20.039
<v Speaker 4>too old. Chop At TV, thank you very much, Number one,

1802
01:52:21.560 --> 01:52:24.720
<v Speaker 4>Ryan Joffrey, thank you very much for my dead father.

1803
01:52:24.800 --> 01:52:28.840
<v Speaker 4>Chris incredible man, Patriot, our condolences. And Corbyn, thank you

1804
01:52:28.880 --> 01:52:31.640
<v Speaker 4>very much. After the two thousand and eight Mumbai attacks,

1805
01:52:31.760 --> 01:52:35.840
<v Speaker 4>the relationships between the US and India begin to solidify.

1806
01:52:35.880 --> 01:52:38.319
<v Speaker 4>In any form of cooperative training.

1807
01:52:40.800 --> 01:52:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Training, No, not from the intelligence perspectives. The Indians are

1808
01:52:46.800 --> 01:52:54.079
<v Speaker 2>extremely proud and do not take agency training lightly unless

1809
01:52:54.079 --> 01:52:55.840
<v Speaker 2>it's of a technical nature that they don't have a

1810
01:52:55.880 --> 01:53:01.560
<v Speaker 2>capability of which they're pretty well heals. No, it did

1811
01:53:01.600 --> 01:53:06.039
<v Speaker 2>not change. Uh. It actually to some extent exacerbated the

1812
01:53:06.119 --> 01:53:10.960
<v Speaker 2>relationship because we would not help them as much as

1813
01:53:11.000 --> 01:53:14.000
<v Speaker 2>they wanted us to help them because the Pakistan issue.

1814
01:53:15.359 --> 01:53:19.039
<v Speaker 3>What is there? Where is their background in terms of

1815
01:53:19.079 --> 01:53:20.680
<v Speaker 3>their intelligence training? Who did they like?

1816
01:53:20.960 --> 01:53:24.800
<v Speaker 4>Did they base their intelligence methodology often in particular country?

1817
01:53:25.359 --> 01:53:29.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well they started from the British. Yeah, okay, it is.

1818
01:53:29.560 --> 01:53:31.960
<v Speaker 2>It is. It is modeled on m I five and

1819
01:53:32.159 --> 01:53:37.239
<v Speaker 2>m I six. Uh. But somewhere in the sixties that

1820
01:53:37.319 --> 01:53:41.239
<v Speaker 2>split off and the organization stayed the same. But a

1821
01:53:41.239 --> 01:53:43.439
<v Speaker 2>lot of the training came from the Russians.

1822
01:53:42.960 --> 01:53:51.159
<v Speaker 3>Okay, and then on Patreon. Oh, this is what we'll answer.

1823
01:53:51.479 --> 01:53:54.520
<v Speaker 4>This is this question about Ranger tab we weill uh, well,

1824
01:53:54.560 --> 01:53:55.479
<v Speaker 4>we'll answer this.

1825
01:53:55.600 --> 01:54:01.119
<v Speaker 3>Question on Patreon. So that's it. Thank you so much.

1826
01:54:01.159 --> 01:54:03.720
<v Speaker 2>We deeply thank you for having me enjoyed it.

1827
01:54:03.920 --> 01:54:06.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this has been an awesome interview, and like I said,

1828
01:54:06.199 --> 01:54:10.199
<v Speaker 1>I love to talk to you again. Should I announce

1829
01:54:10.199 --> 01:54:11.560
<v Speaker 1>who's coming up next week?

1830
01:54:11.760 --> 01:54:12.039
<v Speaker 2>Sure?

1831
01:54:12.760 --> 01:54:16.319
<v Speaker 1>I uh, I'm sorry if I'm a little delinquent on this.

1832
01:54:17.439 --> 01:54:18.560
<v Speaker 3>Well, Jack's looking that up.

1833
01:54:18.800 --> 01:54:23.600
<v Speaker 4>Make sure you check out check out debrief a rundown

1834
01:54:23.840 --> 01:54:26.239
<v Speaker 4>dot com.

1835
01:54:25.680 --> 01:54:29.560
<v Speaker 1>And please take a look at our friends at Casa

1836
01:54:29.640 --> 01:54:35.640
<v Speaker 1>Carabello Cigars Casocarabeo dot com. That's what we've been smoking

1837
01:54:35.640 --> 01:54:36.319
<v Speaker 1>here on the show.

1838
01:54:38.760 --> 01:54:42.760
<v Speaker 2>Next week, we're gonna have Frank Delasio. Thank you for

1839
01:54:42.800 --> 01:54:45.479
<v Speaker 2>another ATS agent in studio.

1840
01:54:45.680 --> 01:54:48.279
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, Frank was on the episode once or was

1841
01:54:48.319 --> 01:54:50.560
<v Speaker 1>on the show once before, and he's gonna come in

1842
01:54:50.640 --> 01:54:53.000
<v Speaker 1>studio and I think actually he's gonna he's bringing one

1843
01:54:53.000 --> 01:54:55.600
<v Speaker 1>of his buddies with him too, So we'll have him

1844
01:54:55.600 --> 01:54:59.159
<v Speaker 1>here next Friday. We're definitely excited about that. Thanks for

1845
01:54:59.199 --> 01:55:02.800
<v Speaker 1>reminding me. So, Louis, thank you for an awesome episode man,

1846
01:55:03.600 --> 01:55:06.039
<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much. Yeah, I have a great rest

1847
01:55:06.079 --> 01:55:08.439
<v Speaker 1>of your weekend and I hope to talk to you

1848
01:55:08.479 --> 01:55:11.960
<v Speaker 1>again soon. All right, thanks Mal, all right, see you

1849
01:55:12.000 --> 01:55:13.680
<v Speaker 1>guys soon. Thanks for joining us.

1850
01:55:13.760 --> 01:55:14.399
<v Speaker 3>Thanks everybody.