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Speaker 1: Meaning a live man like this man letting butterfly flapping
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Speaker 4: Man. All right, Andrew Edwards, welcome back to the Jay Burdenshawe.
Speaker 5: Do it man.
Speaker 2: I'm great good to be back with you. So yeah, man.
Speaker 4: We are continuing our film review series, so we're reviewing
the I guess you would say supernatural, neo noir, erotic
thriller Angel Heart for a little bit of context. Is
a movie you love? But I got this recommendation off
of someone's post to Twitter. I don't remember who but
I had kind of an empty afternoon for some recordings,
and so I saw this and I was like, you
know what, I'll watch that. Maybe it'd make a good episode.
I had quite literally no expectations for this film whatsoever.
Saw someone post about it, never heard of it. Thirty
seconds later I've started the film, and let me tell you, man,
I don't know what my expectations were. They certainly weren't this.
I felt my brain break in half in the film. Truly,
truly excellent. It is in my sort of favorite sub genre,
which is films about the American Deep South, which are
deeply terrifying and yet still true to the source material.
So if you love that aspect of True Detective, there's
a lot of angel Heart in True Detective, you'll definitely
pick up on some certain things. The acting is great.
It's shot much better than it has any right to be.
You know. Obviously a large part of it is heavily
influenced by No War, but once the supernatural elements start appearing,
it goes absolutely nuts. The acting is great, honestly, that's
the soundtracks not half bad either. But yeah, man, I
loved this film. I had absolutely nothing really in my
mind when I started it. But I'm curious, before we
get into the actual movie itself, what's your background within ort.
Speaker 2: So, as I mentioned earlier, I remember in whenever it
was nineteen eighty seven or eighty six, my dad returning
from the movie theater having seen it and him, you know,
I could tell by the expression on his face that
he was blown away. My dad was a huge movie guy,
and he had excellent taste. And so at the first
opportunity I went and watched it, and that shit that
must have been I guess in the nineties early nineties,
and I mean I my relationship with it. Having just
viewed it again for our chat today, I have to
say it's one of my all time favorite movies. And
from a with a little bit of detachment, now, I
gotta say it's just phenomenal. I mean, it's like you said,
it's got a pretty decent soundtrack, the acting is outstanding,
the writing is spectacularler the the switch that they do
from New York to New Orleans. I likewise, I mean,
this is one of my favorite little subgenres. Then you add,
you know this noir element that from from the forties
fifties era, and I mean I think I'm a little
biased because I saw it so early and I have
some emotional attachment to it. But I was looking at
as as I went through it again, some of the
as you as like, why is this shot so well?
You know, Alan Parker, I think is the director. He's
not exactly a household name, but you know, there are
some incredible, really powerful, just visual shots that are their masterpiece,
like painting level stuff. I'm thinking of, Well, we can
get into it, but just speaking generally that that's where
I'm coming at it from. I mean, I love virtually
everything about it, from the supernatural element, the noir element,
the time period, the way it's shot. And we should
mention this is our second review of a of a
Mickey Rourke film, unintentional entirely, and I think that this
is by far and away the high point for Mickey
Rourke's career. He's not the Mickey Rourke that you're familiar
with in like Harley Davidson and the Marlborough Man or whatever.
I mean, this is this is a guy who is
not only hanging with and you know, I don't personally
like any of these people. I mean, I'm disgusted at
this point with all of Hollywood, and all of that
goes without saying, but de Niro is a is a
bit of a ham in this role, but it's perfect
for the film, it says if all of these elements
gel together in such a way where I still placed
this probably in my all time top ten.
Speaker 4: Well, and it was especially bizarre to me to see
Nicky Rourke in an effective dramatic role because I'm realizing
that he is primarily notable in my childhood for starring
in the low budget two thousand and nine video game
Rogue Warrior, where it's basically just and I think it's
actually one of those like Vietnam books, you know, where
this guy just like kind of dramaticized his life and
career in the Cold War that was turned into a
video game.
Speaker 2: Sort of.
Speaker 4: The audio work was done by a very very drunk
Mickey Rourke. And so it was incredibly bizarre because that is,
you know, just because of when I grew up my
picture of him, and so to see him in a
role where he's acting very very well in a dramatic,
complicated film was sort of baffling to me. So you've
seen the movie more recently than I have, so I'll
lean on you partially right for the plot, but effectively
the film starts with our main character, right, private investigator
Harry Angel, who has been tracked down by a man
named Lewis Cipher to follow this, this sort of lounde
singer crooner known as Johnny Favorite. According to Cipher, Favorite
suffered neurological trauma allegedly and owes Cipher money. Right, he
owes him a debt. This this singer has been allegedly
in a New York mental hospital for decades, and effectively
he wants Angel to go in and check, basically like,
is this actually true? I've heard rumors that he flew
the coop. So de Niro's portrayal of this guy Cipher
is incredibly over the top and creep right. He's sort
of this kind of obvious occultist character. You know, he's
dressed in kind of one might say kind of a
I won't say asexual, but sort of bizarre and perverse.
He's got very long groomed fingernails. And they're meeting in
I guess this is what we would say like a
charismatic black church in Harlem. Right, is that how you
describe the situation exactly. Yeah, and go ahead, No, no,
finish that thought, Eddie.
Speaker 2: No, it's it's kind of revealed in a few steps
that maybe this charismatic black church in Harlem, well, I
mean we can say it here. Our main our detective,
you know, are our main character in gooing the you know,
finding all of these little folds within the mystery that
he's forced into. He's pretty quickly uh educated to the
fact that this black church is not like, exactly Christian,
And of course, as the movie goes on, this voodoo
element is brought to the forefront. But I find it's
I think, if you're coming at this with like like
I did when I first thought as a kid, basically
this might strike you as very odd. But in fact
my understanding, I'm no expert, but voodoo does actually have
it's kind of a syncretic thing where it's pulling laments
from other religions and in this case Christianity. So yeah,
he finds himself with this in this spectacular kind of setting,
and with with Windsap, the lawyer who's been contracted by
our de nero character and I forget that guy's name
as an actor who plays wine Sap. He goes on
and he's like a pretty recognizable character actor, but he
is extremely creepy the way he the way he handles himself,
and it just sets this tone right out of the
gate that we're not dealing with, you know, like normal
kind of genteel society. Something else has happened. So pretty
early in the movie, it's revealed that there's this this
voodoo element. But I didn't need to go off that long, please.
Speaker 4: Well, and I might have the the specifics on this
slightly wrong, but doesn't he walk through a crime scene
on his on his sort of journey to meet him,
Like there is a allegedly what we're seeing is sort
of a funeral and this is or a memorial service,
and this is the weird thing. It's sort of surreal
because allegedly one of the prishioner's husbands has has shot himself.
And as he's sort of walking up this sort of
atrium and that the church is in the bottom, he
walks past and looks in and he sees, you know,
this body, brain's blown out, and there's a dark figure
wrapped in black cloth next to the body. Something we
will see as a repeated motif. I'm glad you brought
up the voodoo element, because that's that's throughout the entire film,
obviously as we go into you know, as we go
into New Orleans. But I think it's particularly interesting that
the symbology in this is very dark. So you see
a lot of traditional voodoo symbols this will come up
later again as well, but also a lot of that
is mixed with Christian symbology, right, Like you'll see a
cross with a bunch of different nails nailed onto it, right, which,
if you know anything about voodoo, is a particularly potent symbol.
It honestly reminded me the way you described it of
you know, what you see in Central and South America
with these kind of narco cults, right, mixing elements of
you know, native religion sort of like Oruba and other
things from the Caribbean and from Africa, and also you know,
Catholicism kind of all at once. And the film is
not a pine on that, but it is an interesting detail.
Speaker 2: Nonetheless, I agree, it's super interesting. And I'm glad you
mentioned motifs because one thing this movie does so well,
and again watching it, I remembered these images. There's a
couple of things and one of them is this ascending
and descending stairs or ladders or elevators going up, going down.
And then there's this weird crone woman figure who's only
revealed at the very very end of the film, but
she's it's odd, right, you can't help but realize as
the viewer, like this is extraordinary. This is, you know, supernatural.
There's something bizarre happening with this cloaked kind of thin
and as well, you know in I'm no expert again,
but in the cartel kind of you know, Santaia death
magic thing they do. I believe that they call her
the Skinny One or something like that, which is this
movie was made like what thirty five years ago, something
like that forty years ago, and it's it's interesting that
this woman, this figure very she's very thin and super creepy.
But back to the motif idea. The fan is another
one where it's not it's not again, it's it's like
really close to over the top, but it's just about
pitch perfect in my opinion, where you have the classic
black and white where your light is penetrating shadow or
shadow is overlaid onto light, and Alan Parker does this
repeatedly with this fan. I'm not entirely sure what the
deep symbolism of the electric fan is, but it's it's
constantly there and it does its job of imparting at
at like, yeah, the visual level that one this is
we're in Noirville and it's it's amazing. But uh, this
this he the character of you know, Rourke's character, Harold Angel.
At the end of the film, there's a sense, tell
me if I'm wrong here, and then maybe we can
jump back to the kind of linear aspect of the plot.
There's a sense that he's fractured, you know, and time
is not playing quite the right way. He's having something
like and there's this talk about shell shock being an element,
which is what they called like PTSD back in the
forties and fifties. One of these and these images start
to roll out real early, and one of them is
the fan, and one of them is the elevator. There's
like that classic metal graded old school elevator that's closing
and then it's descending. And in viewing the movie again,
I realized how subtle this is. That and I don't
want to give out the spoilers too early, of course,
but the whole film is that's that's where I'm I'm
looking at it and like, dude, this is a this
is a masterpiece. It's so subtle, and so while the
visuals are sometimes over the top and some of the
acting is a little hammy, in terms of an object
of art like a construction, this is an overlooked masterpiece
even at that level, because it never hit me until
this viewing how that internal, fractured narrative aspect of Harry
Angel is playing out from the beginning all the way
to the end and it's totally coherent. It might does
that make sense?
Speaker 4: You see that as well? With the local right that
you have this incredible like just even the way the
film looks from you know, New York, which is shot
very much like a traditional noir, Like in the opening,
you know shots he's walking through these kind of like horrible, ashy,
gray alley ways with stray animals walking around. You know,
it's all very gray and urban. And then the second
half of the film, which is in New Orleans, this
is just kind of like riot of you know color.
There's a you know, he stays in this kind of
like low rent hotel and you know it's it's like
he's in the jungle, right, it's it's there's water coming
down everywhere, you know, even the and this is an
interesting kind of parallel right going through uh, going through
Harlem multiple times, he sees these sort of religious parades
going through and then those are contrasted with the kind
of like New Orleans like street music, and it's like, okay,
there's a there's an act there, but there's a dramatic
difference in character, even down to the way it's it's
shot that the color palette goes from being almost monochromatic
to this kind of riot of you know, greens and
Mardi Gras colors. And again it's this kind of like
almost like schizophrenia, these kind of two different personalities, which
is very close to the reveal of the film. We
will not get into that, you know, at least for
a few more minutes. Yeah, it's it's incredibly well done.
So carrying forward, Harry takes the deal. You know, he's
offered a lot of money. So he goes to he
goes to this, Uh, he goes to this mental hospital
where this you know, this this singer is allegedly receiving
treatment for shell shock. We get some interesting characterization where
he tries to sort of sweet talk the lady at
the front where he's just around the corner, and we
see him flipping through different FAI guides and then he
comes through as the he's the health inspector.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: He says, Oh, I need to see this, you know.
She says, oh, you know this was signed out or
this was you know, this person was signed out of
the hospital by this this doctor uh uh foul Albert Fowler. Yeah,
And so our main character basically says, like, all right,
I've got to go find this guy. So he tracks
down Albert Fowler, who lives in just like an absolute shithole,
Like it's this horrible rundown building. And as he's sort
of snooping around, he goes through his refrigerator and it's
just full of morphine. Right, that this guy is, you know,
a morphine addict. Harry confronts him. It's sort of this
interesting classic you know, NEWIR moment where he waits for
him to come home, and you know, he's illuminated by
the flash of a cigarette lighter, right, this kind of
classic New AR shot.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, exactly it. And he establishes in that scene
like he's kind of a tough guy, and he's super experienced,
even though you know, we're not really told maybe why,
like you know, with a lot of times you have
the former cop backstory, like I learned about the CD
underside of things from from being a cop or whatever.
We don't really know that. But Rourke Rourke, forgive me
if I digress a bit, but I think this is
one of my favorite aspects of this film. So on
the one hand, he he's he's experienced with the underside
of the world. He can handle all of the kind
of mental convolusions of the junkie and apply physical pressure
and maybe even beat him up a little bit if
need be, And this plays out throughout most of the film.
But there's also this tender side of of the auror
of the Rourke character where he he doesn't like chickens.
That's kind of a thing that I think it's sort
of funny throughout the film, But there are little moments
where he's around kids and he will pass his finger,
you know, not in a creepy way, but like in
a genuinely gentle way. And maybe this is less about
the characterization of our hero and more about Alan Parker
or something like that, but I didn't notice this the
first time through. And there are a couple moments like that.
Even with the doctor as he's roughing him up, he's
kind of gentle in some ways. It's as if he
has this very intimate understanding of I don't know, degenerative
sort of states or what, but it plays out. Did
you pick up on that at all? This kind of
I guess, just a duality in this character where he's
he's in this incredibly nasty world, but there's something tender
happening as well, there's something unbroken, and I'll throw it
back to you because I have some ideas in this,
but I want to hear if you noticed it.
Speaker 4: Well, well definitely, And we see that he actually doesn't
want to cause this guy any issues because what happens
is basically like he sees the guys in bad shape
and he's like, you know what, all right, fine, I'll
give you some time to to think, to collect your thoughts.
I'll come back later then why have a conversation and
I'll leave no problems. And it's even interesting that like
his threat isn't like I'm going to break your knees.
He's just like, look, I I might have to tell
the police that you're, you know, a morphine addict, which, sure,
that's a threat, but it's not like he's got you know,
he's going to throw him down an elevator shaft or something.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like we he's not exactly what we would call
like a a you know, hyper moral character, but he's
not some thug. You know, he's been paid to do
a job. Uh So I'm curious before we get to
the resolution of this scene, because it's a it's a
repeated one throughout the film, what your what your thoughts
on this initially.
Speaker 2: Are which aspect this?
Speaker 4: Oh, you were just saying that you were something you
wanted to say about that kind of duality in his tenderness.
Speaker 2: So I maybe this, if you know, guys want to
go check out this movie, maybe this will help speed
them along, because as I've said, I watched it many
times over decades now, and it was only now that
I notice well, and maybe I'll try and pick up
on a little bit of the plot to move us
forward a bit. But as our character is progressing, which
is all you know, he's going kind of deeper and
deeper and deeper into whether it's his own madness, or
it's the the darkness of of the job that's been
given to him, like as the detective, unraveling you know,
the parts of this plot and figuring out what happened
to this this mysterious musician, Uh Johnny favorite as this happens, Uh,
I'm losing my I'm losing my train of thought. But uh,
what I noticed this time is that the plot is
getting darker and it's obvious to the viewer, but at
the same time, Parker is juxtaposing images of salvation throughout
and I this is the aspect I didn't notice as
a kid. There are over and over and over and over,
whether it's literally like emblazoned on a church, you know,
the world.
Speaker 4: That's actually exactly what I was going to bring up. Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 2: I really feel like this is maybe part of why
this movie is so damn good, because we've hit a
lot of the parts. They're just regular kind of we
expect them to be in this type of newer film.
But I wonder now if what Parker's genius or maybe
the author of the novel on which this is based
gets almost no credit. By the way, you know, no
one knows who he is. I read the book much
much later in life. It's his name is like Horsberg
or something like that. Apparently he died twenty sixteen or
so in Livingston, Montana, and I didn't hear about that.
You know, I hope he did well, because this was
the book was really pretty darn good too. Maybe not
as good as the movie, maybe, who knows. But back
to the point, what Parker has done is sort of
add this tension visually and maybe at the subliminal sort
of levels where it seems now that while our character
is on a track to hell. I mean, that's just
what it is. He's on a excuse me night train
to hell. These images of salvation through the church and
through little figurines that show up, whether it's the Sacred
Heart or the Cross here and there, He's being offered
salvation at every step of the way. And it creates
this bizarre tension because you know, as the viewer, there's
nothing about our guy Mickey Rourke, Harold Angel who's even
thinking on these terms. He's just missing every opportunity, so
it doesn't even feel like an opportunity, which is kind
of a strange. You know, from my point of view
as somebody who believes in these things now in salvation
in Christianity. The film presents almost like an inevitability of things,
which which is maybe to the movie's credit and maybe
why it's so creepy. I'll throw it back to you.
Speaker 4: Well, and this, this is actually really the first extremely
explicit moment of this. After he has you know, left,
the doctor said, hey, you need some time to clean up.
We see him walking, you know, walking through this kind
of like horrible snowy street and there's a church, like
an old Rundown church that says salvation on it, and
he hears a sort of ghostly voice yelling Harry, Johnny, Harry,
like over and over again. So he looks in the church.
He doesn't walk in, he's just standing in the doorway
and there are two nuns there. They look up at him,
and when he looks in, he sees this kind of
recurring motif of the kind of rickety old elevator opening
its doors. Yeah, and he turns around and leaves. So, yeah,
literally he is being offered salvation and he refuses right,
going back to another recurring motif. When he returns to
speak with the doctor, he's been killed, shot through the eye.
We see Harry really quickly understand what's going on. He
goes around wiping up all of the places where his
fingerprints have been left the scene. Obviously that would be
very suspicious. You know, he's the last person to have
seen him. They got into a physical altercation. So he
returns back to Cipher. I needed a diner, he says.
You know, here's what I've found out. You know that
this this doctor, you know, falsified the records. He hasn't
been that this singer hasn't been there in ten years.
But I'm done. You know, there's already a body connected
to this. I don't want to be involved. It's quite
simply not something I want to be want to be,
you know, continually involved with. And Cipher basically drops five
grand he says, which you know at the time was
quite a lot of money, and says, look like you're
going to see this through. So again he is not
only he rejected salvation, but he has accepted the deal.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: This is very much a Faustian story quite literally, although
you're getting it told in a way that I won't spoil,
but the order of it's a little different than what
you may be expecting. And so he continues on with
the investigation the next I guess chapter of this so
we find out that favorite had a wealthy fiance named
Margaret Cruz Mark that's her name, right, who's sort of
this the southern heiress who's interested in the occult based
out of Louisiana, and allegedly also had a secret love
affair with a woman named Evangeline Proud Fuh. So this
is where we begin the transition to New Orleans.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 4: The last parts of this investigation in New York involve
him finding the band members of this this old.
Speaker 2: Kind of you know, krooner act.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 4: There's a very funny Again, this scene does not have
to be as funny scene shot on the beach in
New York in like the middle of March or something.
Gets miserable and you know, it's this old like a
kind of fat guy sitting on the beach with like
this very weird like I guess you would say, like
sunbathing equipment. It's this sort of like nose shield. It's
it's a pretty bizarre scene, very funny. One of the
probably the best gags in this is you know he he,
you know walks out on the empty, you know, frigid
beach to talk to this guy I can't remember, you
know how he was connected to the band. He's one
of the members, and you know that they go back
and forth. He's like, guy, I ought to talk to
my wife, and then the camera just pivots and we
realized his wife is like thirty feet away again on
this wide empty beach, just standing in the frigid water,
and so Mickey Rourke has to kind of like walk
out with her into the in his you know, full
suit right to talk with her about the details. It's
kind of a throwaway gag, but nonetheless it's it's pretty funny. Now,
what's interesting is that that Harry goes back to the
same kind of I guess you'd say church or like
assembly room before and he's just sort of looking around
and is attacked by two men. But before he is,
he sort of walks up to this same shrouded figure.
Do you remember what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2: Andy, Yes, absolutely, I remember.
Speaker 4: So what do you make of that scene?
Speaker 2: Well? I am not entirely sure. It seems like from
a motivational standpoint, you know, he's having doubts maybe about
what he's getting into Rourke is starting to wonder, like, what,
what exactly did I see up there with this bloodstain
that we mentioned earlier on the wall and this woman
kind of cleaning the blood off the wall before he
ever makes contact with his employer, Lewis Scifier, and I think,
maybe you know, he's going back to to investigate that.
And then yeah, he sees this this skinny girl, this
shrouded figure who's I get the premise is like she's
praying or in mourning or something, and he's he's just
about to make contact with her, and then he's assaulted.
But he's these two guys.
Speaker 5: So.
Speaker 2: It kind of echoes some stuff that happens later, of course,
because throughout the movie pretty much that's the jump off
point where he is he's under physical pressure. People various
entities or interests are sending tough guys after him, and
he's getting his ass beat a little bit here and there,
both in New York. But then this happens multiple times
when he gets down to New Orleans. So I'm not
entirely sure other than to say it does its work
again to like set a sense that time and space
are not entirely it doesn't view like this. It's not
a time travel movie or anything like that, but there
are enough echoes back and forth where in thinking about
it like we are now, you realize either Parker or
the novelist has has done some work to like tie
things together very nicely. That's the level that that I
kind of view it as.
Speaker 4: And it's a it's a great scene shot wise, because
again we see this dramatic shot of him walking up
the stairs, the bars kind of opening to either side,
and he's walking around this scene. You know, he picks
up the brush right that they used to scrub the blood.
It's still kind of stained, you know, ruddy red, and
it's cutting back and forth between him, you know, investigating
this this sort of voodoo church after hours with this
sort of which I mentioned earlier, this over the top
religious parade where you have this kind of black preacher
on like a litter, right, he's carried by you know,
a group of guys. There's you know, there's nuns of
some variety and like a brass band going. You know,
it's this kind of crazy scene contrasted against this kind
of slum and harlem and as you know, he's accosted
by these two men. It's sort of a you know,
a great like late eighties fight scene. You know, there's
smashing chairs and everything. He runs out and he runs
into the parade. So this sort of you know, this
I guess you would say like an A and B
not plot, but kind of you know, series kind of
collide together and he you know, dumps the faster over
the two goons. You know, have to say it help them,
and then he you know, he dodges out of town.
But you're kind of an interesting moment there. There's some
other characterization of you know, makeey work. We get we
find out that he's sort of a ladies man, right,
he was able to get a lot of this information
by sleeping with, you know, someone who worked at city Hall.
There's a really minor moment walking into this scene where
he sees this Puerto Rican girl getting dropped off by
her her boyfriend, and it's basically implied they're also sleeping together.
So you know, he's so of a he's sort of
a tomcat. But as we we go to uh, New Orleans,
it's really a dramatic change, uh, because he's he's chasing
after uh. Obviously this this character, you know, Evangeline Proudfoot,
but excuse me, uh. He he meets with Margaret kruzmar Right,
who's this this very wealthy woman. He goes to her
sort of you know, swanky New Orleans magic shop. Right,
it's very clearly upscale. She's an older woman, still very attractive,
but clearly kind of you know, pastor prime.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 4: She has a you know, sort of a nanny figure.
He he asks her about all you know this information?
She he she tells him that, uh, you know that
that Proudfoot is dead, but sir by her seventeen year
old daughter. So he goes to meet her. Uh do
you want to describe I guess that that kind of
transition from New Orleans to you know, meeting up with
this woman and then later uh, the kind of seventeen
year old will be at the center of a lot
of this film.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can try. The things that stand out
to me are even right when he gets off, it's
like a I think it's an Art Deco style train,
and he's he takes his jacket off and he's immediately sweating,
and he's got to change. He's got to change into
his like linen searsucker suit before he goes and meets
with Cruise Mark, and you're right, like the whole color
palette is is entirely different. And I'm not sure at
what point, you know in the linear progression he makes
it over to I guess it's after maybe he meets
the Lisa Bonnet character. This is the the daughter of
of Evangeline Proudfoot, who was the girlfriend of the crooner
that that our guys looking for. And he goes over
to this little root shop, like a like a voodoo
mammy shop, and it's it's Carter or something. And that's
one of my favorite scenes, the way that that old
black woman just just stares him down, telling him basically
the truth and how and and it's it's it's like
the scene from well a couple of different characters in
Cohen films, but in No Country for Old Men, there
are these snippets where a really minor character just all
almost takes over the whole film, and this happens several
times in this movie. That's one of them. And somewhere
in there, you know, he's we as the audience and
our guy Mickey Rourke are being introduced to the lay
of the land there in New Orleans and he rents
a car and he's so he's going out of town
a little bit to where the poor folks live pretty much,
and he tracks her down and it's she's this, you know,
seventeen year old sex bomb. I mean, she's just I remember.
So this is another aspect of I was around and
like cognizant of sexuality and whatnot when Lisa Bonet kind
of hit the scene And it's hard to translate now
because it's it's just way more common. But she was
like she was in the Cosby Show, as I recall,
and this was a super popular show. I might have
this wrong but beautiful face, and you know, not really
up to that point in her career. I don't think
she'd just done the overt sexuality thing. But this is like,
how do you can't emphasize enough? How this is just
oozing off of the screen. When she's introduced, her sexuality
is just like overwhelming. The Mickey Rourke character is immediately transfixed,
and she like changes the whole the whole tone. From there,
I think he goes he goes to find another associate
of his guy to crooner, which we should pause maybe
just to say, you know, you mentioned the Faustian thing.
Another thing that's happening here is angel Hart and the
novel are playing off the Robert Johnson the Paganini. There
are a few other well, I mean, Jimmy Page. This
this old idea that musicians can sell their souls for
musical talent, and we do at some point sort of
you know, I'm not sure how much spoiler we want
to give, but we start to realize maybe this is
in play right because the blues come in. He goes
into this blues bar to meet this old associate Toots,
who's playing the blues go ahead.
Speaker 4: Weird connection really reminds me a lot of there's a
very similar scene in Collateral. It's not entirely the same,
but it does rhyme a good bit when when Tom
Cruise's character I can't remember who goes into a blues
bar and ends up killing a very similar figure to
put Sweet.
Speaker 2: Uh interesting.
Speaker 4: Obviously, I have no idea if there's any sort of
connection there, but just you know, something that's sort of
you know, knocked loose in my mind. Uh So there. Obviously,
we've got a lot of film to cover and less
time than i'd like, so we're gonna have to move
a little quickly, but to backtrack slightly or to contradict
exactly what I just said.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 4: So those couple scenes are pretty interesting because one when
he goes to meet this Accusa Mark woman. Uh, he
goes partially but not all the way through with getting
his palm red right. He's asking her very direct questions
about the singer. She gets offended kicks him out.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: And regardless through this you know, connection to Lisa Bbney's character,
he figures out needs to talk to this guy to
sweet Uh. I will say, as someone who loves Louisiana,
this film gets it so right. There's an awesome shot
where he's he's tracking Cusa Mark back to her property
and he's on one of these sort of iconic New
Orleans streetcars. Now there's only like two of them left.
They seem to be lost technology and they are continually
getting flooded in hurricanes because that's what happens in New Orleans.
So there's sort of a vanishing breed. But I have
you know, been on that that route up and down
Saint Charles before, and it perfectly gets the sort of
you know ideal kind of you know noir feel for it,
you know, back in the sixties or whatever. So I
just wanted to say it's it's very very well done.
And again another interesting uh, which is very you know,
kind of southern, very New Orleans, is the the contrast
between you know, the the city and the country, because
you know, we see that the kind of contrast between
you know, the relative bustle of New Orleans. And then
when he gets to the more rural, kind of middle
of nowhere part of Louisiana, which is where he you know,
meets Lisa Benet.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: Sorry, it just kind of some scattered thoughts there, but
nonetheless something really important to bring up because they are
dramatically different and you know, shot similarly. So when he
he meets up with uh with Toots, he basically refers
him back to to Margaret, right. Uh, he follows him. Uh,
he follows him back to his place. They have sort
of a scuffle and Toots pulls a razor blade, cuts
him on the hand, and you know, Harry just kind
of you know, punches him and basically says like all right,
like you know, give me the information, and cuts to
the next morning he's in his hotel and these two
kind of uh, which this is a very Coen Brothers
set of characters. That the police officers come in and
let him know that. And I might have the order wrong,
but that is that Toots has been killed. Does that
happen before or after Margaret is killed? It's before, Yeah,
it's a minor spoiler, but you know whatever, that basically,
yet again another source, another important part of this case
has been killed, and the police basically say like, look,
you know you're the presumptive suspect. We heard that you
guys got into a scuffle that he threw you out
of this bar, Like we're you know, we've got an
eye on you.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 4: We also get this sort of vision of or not vision.
I guess he just goes and tracks one of our
characters to this sort of crazed voodoo ritual. So yeah,
the segment is very very bizarre. I'll let you kind
of handle that, Andy, Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so from two, it's he he gets out
back to the country, or maybe he's already in the
country at that point, but he he realizes that he's
he's deep into this this voodoo environment, and that is
maybe one of that's the first moment where we see
the Lisa Bonet kind of sex pot character. She's doing
this like elaborate humping the earth. We see your bare chest,
and you know, for the film goer, it's it's pretty spicy.
I mean, I guess say, now, you know, we live
in a different time, but but then it was. I
think it was pretty racy, as as they used to
say back then.
Speaker 5: And and.
Speaker 2: I want to say too, at that point, it's pretty
clear that to the viewer, like the walls are kind
of closing in on our guy, and people are being
iced left and right, and the steaks are ramping up.
Everything's just kind of spinning out of control. It's getting
weirder and weirder and weirder. And yet it was striking
to me. And I'm glad you touched on it. Here
the visuals both in the country. There's some scenes later
where he winds up with these oh kind of like
I guess maybe they're creole types. They're just like backwoods
oystermen and crawfish guys. You see that element of the
country and it's juxtaposed back against you know, one of
the most spectacular cities probably have all time, which is
New Orleans. In it's and I'm not a real expert
on New Orleans at all, but it's pretty satisfying from
my point of view as a you know, a Pacific northwesterner.
You feel like you get a really good taste of
that place. You see these the architecture, you know, you
get enough of the classic kind of French quarter stuff,
but you see these other plazas, and you mentioned the
the streetcar. It's and for nothing else. It's it's to
say this movie has a lot more going on as
a piece of art than just you know, another kind
of interesting, maybe supernatural NEWIR flick. It's it's it's very
well done as far as picking up from maybe where
where our guy finds out that this Lisa Bonett character
is is sort of voodoo priestess. I mean, from there,
it's kind of like full speed ahead. Right, we're almost yeah.
Speaker 4: So we we start to see our kind of main
character unravel.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: This is now the second person connected to this case
who's turned up dead. He followed Touts back from this ritual.
That's where they had I had that order slightly reversed.
That's where they had their confrontation. You know, he's cut
by Toots and we see this dramatic shot of him
leaving just drenched in blood, much more than we would
expect from uh, you know, just the simple cut we
saw touts give him. But anyway, the police barge in.
They let him know that he's the primary suspect. So
we see this shot of him later in a bar,
and he's staring at himself in the mirror in this payphone,
and we're seeing this kind of mix of symbols, you know,
while he's listening to the dial ring, we're seeing shots
from V Day, right, We're seeing shots from this kind
of great, you know, celebration after the war is over.
We're seeing a shot of a fan spinning, and shots
of again him riding an elevator down in front of
these kind of bars. Images you will see repeated again
and again and again. And as this sort of this
these symbols, you know, become more and more frantic, he's
all of a sudden jerked out or jerked you know,
back to reality by a guy you know, ask him
for a quarter or something. But nonetheless we see him
start to deteriorate. The next scene, we find out that
Margaret's dead too, and not just dead in the way
that the other people have, although you know, it's had
a grizzly end. I won't exactly explain why, but you
can imagine, you know, he didn't exactly you know, have
a particularly pleasant passing. But Margaret has been ritually murdered, right,
She's been basically, you know, cut with a ritual dagger
and her living heart pulled out right quite a grizzly,
you know, kind of dramatic death. And so again, it's
honestly remarkable. Because I've got the film up in one
tab just so I can refer to the imagery. This
is an hour and fifty minute movie. We are currently
at the hour and ten minute mark by watch time,
which if you would have asked me, this next hour
goes by incredibly credibly quickly because of how frantic the pacing.
Speaker 2: Is, I didn't realize that's the case. It is like that, right,
like it just he's the film is so brilliantly executed
from the technical level that I mean going. That's why
I said, is I was. I was laying in bed
thinking about it, and I was like, is there even
a single shot that I would stretch or change? Because
the viewer has been led up to that point and
It's like the last hour just evaporates in ten to
fifteen minutes. Things move so quickly, and they're so consistent
with the logic of the film up to that point, so.
Speaker 4: We're gonna have to move a little bit more quickly.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: You know, after he finds out that you know, Margaret
is dead, he again has leaves the scene of the crime.
He goes back to find more information kind of in
the country again we see this sort of very very
true detective sort of open air revival baptism going on,
and while he's poking around, he's assaulted by a you know,
a group of men. They threaten him with a dog.
And he meets back up with this woman, Epiphany, This
this seventeen year old, and you know, they talk a
little bit more. The then he meets back up with
Cipher and this is is incredibly uh kind of creepy scene.
You know, he they meet up, they're in a kind
of church. This is sort of a classic Hollywood shot
where there's sort of a service going on, but still
we're you know, having this this full discussion kind of
in the back and you know, the menace is just
off the charts, right. This kind of creepy, creepy kind
of occultist character. You're really putting the screws on him,
basically saying like you can't back out now, you know,
you've got to keep going. And you know, Cipher's telling
him like, oh, there's there's three bodies. Are you sure
that this isn't you know, something that you're involved in?
And then Epiphany ends up back at the next scene,
ends up back at mickey works place. Ah, the two
of them share a drink, they go to bed together,
and the scene goes absolutely nuts from there. So Andy,
I'll let you handle this one, Okay.
Speaker 2: So that scene, it's it's got to be one of
the most Like if you were to make a collage
of iconic, intense Hollywood film scenes, I think it'd be
appropriate to splice in a few shots of Mickey Rourke
and Lisa Bonet in New Orleans in this completely humid,
sweaty environment. Getting down to this. I think it's like
a like an old jazz standard song. It starts out
with and it isn't, you know, terribly graphic or anything
in terms of the sexuality, but it goes from you know,
pretty tame to pretty intense to as you say, like
absolutely mind boggling what's happening in the in the space
of like a minute or maybe two minutes. I forget
how long it's stretched out. But here's the part where
you know we're getting deep into spoiler territory. He's I
think that our character is fracturing. He's entering in like
the very heart of his mystery, the mystery that he
is involved in that he is trying to understand, and
it's all sort of, if you will, The supernatural aspect
of it is just dom it's coming overt and it's
raining very intensely outside. There are these leaks in the
hotel room. He's trying to catch them in these buckets,
and this becomes like a deluge where the whole room
is just water is streaming down the wall and the
two characters on the bed are just completely soaked. And
then some blood is introduced into that rain, and so
once again back to like the religious image and you know,
the salvation. I think that there may be even a
layer further to this movie in terms of its religious symbolism,
and I don't know that it's like accurate symbolism, but
what Parker is playing with is is pretty intense. I
mean water and blood and here they are in this
creative act. I'll leave it up to you, Jay, you
know how much you want to give away our to
our listeners in terms of the relationship between the Lisa
Bonett character and the detective. But it's like, in some
ways you're hitting a couple of crescendos in that that
we talked about this pat this last like forty five
minutes of the film. You're hitting like explosions boom boom,
boom boom, and they come in such rapid succession where
the plot is just filling in it, you know, its
expectations that it's it's hard to keep up with honestly,
and remember how it presents well and there's.
Speaker 4: This scene is bonkers, like absolutely wild, yeah, and shit,
it sort of starts off kind of how you'd expect,
you know, as you mentioned, there's the kind of water element.
And as it it builds, we see a couple of things,
which is one it's sort of cutting between as it
builds an intensity images of this kind of like hellss
hellish orgy where there is right, yeah kind of you know,
blood and sex and it's you're not entirely sure where
one begins in the other ends also we see there
their faces now in you know, these kind of like
gruesome grimaces of pain. And the blood begins. First is
sort of a tinge to the water, and then it
goes to a full on slasher movie level. And as
it sort of begins to coat the walls, we see
again this repeated image of this you know, skinny crone
like figure scrubbing the walls, right, echoing what we saw
at the very beginning, right with the suicide, and it
builds Toru Krishndo, and then it's the next morning. Yeah,
you don't really know what happened. So we're an Now
we're in. We have avoided spoilers no more. Watch this movie.
It's not for the faint of heart. It's very very good. However,
we really can't wrap up the film without discussing the spoilers.
Speaker 5: Here.
Speaker 2: This is it.
Speaker 4: If you don't want to have it spoiled, log out
watch the film. It's not hard to find. But from
now on we just have to discuss it. Like there's
really no way around it at this point. But you
got an hour, right, that's not too bad as far
as spoiler free content goes. So again. You know that
this scene kind of resolves, and the next morning, the
two cops show up again at the kind of you know,
obscene obsanely overweight you know, kind of New Orleans detective
which is kind of like seersucker suit and you know, comedically,
you know, short tie. They come up to tell him like, hey, look,
apparently this Margaret woman has shown up dead as well. Yeah,
like we've arrested people for way less. So point is
like the eye of the law is is upon him.
We we also somewhat later, as he's you know, kind
of walking around, we see that he is still under
observation from these kind of like a punitive person, say,
kind of like white trash tofts. Right, Yeah, so he
he's running away from them. We see they actually try
and you know shoot him. You know, so he's still
kind of running away, but he's still devoted to this case.
So he ends up at this kind of you know,
low rent horse race where Margaret's father is right again
looking for or more context. Right, So he meets up
with with her father at the you know, at the
horse race. They go back to this kind of again
you know gumbo shack, right, and which again I'm be
honest that I just kind of love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's.
Speaker 4: So basically Crusemark the Elder reveals that Margaret helped Johnny
Favorite leave the hospital, he claims, and we find out
this is true, that Favorite sold his soul to Satan
in exchange or stardom, but sought to, you know, get
out of the bargain. So in nineteen forty three, they
kidnapped a soldier performed a ritual on him his still heart,
still beating heart rather in order to hide from the Devil,
right to basically sort of transfer the debt. Harry has
a panic attack because he's sort of starting to realize
what this means. And when he returns Krusemark is dead.
He's drowned in the gumbo. As he goes back to
Margaret's home, he finds a clue to this soldier's identity,
dog tags with his name stamped on them. So say fair,
however you say his name shows up and Angel realizes
this is the Devil and he's back to claim what's
his Favorite soul and Cipher basically tells him not only
are you Johnny Favorite, but you killed Fowler, you killed Toots,
you killed the cruise Marks and Epiphany because when Angel
afterwards again in a kind of fugue state, returns, the
police found Epiphany brutally murdered and you know, the victim
of other violence as well, wearing Angel's dog tags, and
Angel reveals that Epiphany was his daughter or a detective
basically tells him you'll burn an Angel says, I know
in hell. And during the end credits, right, we watch
Angel standing inside this kind of iconic elevator just descending
forever and yeah, it's it's it's it's for real.
Speaker 2: Grim Man, you handle that so well. I mean you
just like it gets so intense when it hits like
it's we talked earlier about like usual Suspects or what's
the one with Bruce willis the Dead People's sense? Yeah,
where the reveal is so it's like a work of architecture,
like high art. It's so well done and so intense
that there's there's an overwhelming aspect to that to that
last fifteen or twenty minutes. And man, when he's going
down the elevator, like, I don't know how you can
watch the movie and not not be moved, do you know,
to evaluate what is and what is not reality hectic,
I mean just extremely, extremely moving to me anyway.
Speaker 4: No, definitely, I mean, you definitely understand that all is
not as it seems. But you know the fact that
you know, the main character is constantly being pursued sort
of lets you lets you kind of take refuge in
the fact that he is, he's seek he's trying to
uncover something, right, that all will be revealed, you know
that he will expose this conspiracy. But and I haven't
watched it again, so maybe it's incredibly incredibly obvious on
a second viewing, but it doesn't feel cheap, it doesn't
feel unearned. And even going back to you know, things
earlier about hearing you know, Johnny and Harry's name kind
of repeated back, like flipping and flopping back and forth.
You could look at that as incredibly obvious, but having
seen it, you really don't go there. You're constantly looking
for another solution until the kind of final key drops
into plates. I mean, obviously, this film is incredibly it's
incredibly grim. One of the things we haven't mentioned, right,
is that Epiphany has this three year old child, identity
of which is not known, and when the police carry
it out, its eyes flash exactly how Cipher's eyes flash,
indicating that that is likely the child of the devil.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an incredibly grim film. I mean, we again
have this repeated motif of Johnny Harry whichever one you
want to call them, repeatedly refusing salvation, right, refusing forgiveness,
and so he is damned. Right, that is the conclusion
to this film. It's an incredibly dark ending for kind
of a Hollywood film. You're expecting there to be some
kind of silver lining or way out, and as presented,
it's an incredibly fatalistic film.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. I think that's why,
you know, viewing it a second time, that imagery we
talked about at you know earlier, where it this redemptive
aspect has to be there, like for us to experience
again a coherent kind of religious situation at the end,
you know, it feels entire it's shocking, like how used
to how uncomfortable it is. It's like, man, this dude
is done. It is over. There is nothing but yet
the entire movie, there were these signs and opportunities and
he's just simply at the end. My take on it
was sort of like because there are multiple mentions that
this guy Johnny favorite Harry, whoever is is very is
a very evil man, is not a good guy. And
you know how how exactly that works out in the
arc of of the Roar character, where he has these
other kind of almost tender qualities. It's it just it
seems to compound the despair that I feel at the
end of the film, where man, they're just something had
just turned a little bit differently. Maybe this guy could
have turned the corner and been saved in some way.
But I know we're getting towards the end, Jay, But
what I wanted to ask you take you know, where's
it sit for you? I mean, is it as it
a masterpiece? Is it just a great movie? Is do
you need to watch it ten more times? What do
you think? So here's here's.
Speaker 4: Here's my here's my thought on it. It's a it's
a very very good film. Uh. I don't know if
it's a true masterpiece, because I don't know if i'd
recommend it to everyone, right, And it fits into a
a category of art I tend to enjoy, which is
extremely specific in films or books, right where you know
there's something to be said about just kind of the
universal masterpiece everyone needs to see. But I really enjoy
movies that have a very specific target, particularly one that
hasn't been hit before, and go about that goal particularly well,
because I mean, you probably know the genre of you know,
a cult noar better than I do, but I can't
think of all that many you know, sort of works
in the genre. Like really it's like this and True
Detective as far as I'm aware, and both of those
are really great, and whatever that genre is. I love it,
but it's not for everyone, right, Like it's a it's
a quite a viewing experience. And again, I have, you know,
no complaints. I enjoyed it quite a bit, but I
will genuinely I've never seen anything like this film before.
On it a multitude of levels, and I think part
of the reason why I'm so like my jaw was
on the floor throughout this entire film is I had
absolutely nothing, no expectation whatsoever, just a you know, a
little blurb on Twitter and it's like, okay, all right,
I'll go watch that, and uh yeah, it's I think.
I It's been what two weeks since I've watched it,
and I still feel like I need more time to
sit on it. If anything, I think is perhaps the
one weakness. This is a pretty tepid criticism the character
of Cipher because they say, in a bizarre way, it
is it's a little on the nose. It's a little
on the nose. And especially once I realized going back
over the summary that it's it's like Lewis Scifier Lucifer,
I was like, okay, guys, come on now, just because
I didn't catch that, it's because I'm not parting Bright
so like fair enough. But that was the one thing
where I was like, that's a little bit of an
eye roll. But other than that, I genuinely enjoyed the
film quite a bit, and I would recommend it. I think,
you know, particularly people who are interested in you know,
your work, Andy, which is kind of mixing you know,
kind of tropes from the the kind of noir genre
with the supernatural, and also you know my work with Thomas.
I mean, I think that you and I both just
because of our our theological commitments, wouldn't necessarily sign off
on this as like a piece of doctrine.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: Obviously it's a Hollywood film, but it is genuinely fascinating,
especially because it is a an uncompromising version of evil,
and it is not a version of evil that you
can really make deals with, right making that that deal
not only did it it fail to you know, catapult
you know, Johnny into stardom. He's a minor figure who
got you know, drafted and you know, did seemingly experience
shell shock and lose part of his memory why this
whole film even starts off. So I think that that
is incredibly interesting as well, the idea of you know,
making a deal with the devil truly does lead to
damnation and destruction. And also, I maybe if I were
in the director's chair, I think it would have been
interesting to sort of emphasize the repeated rejection of salvation more,
you know, in kind of a more traditional Faustian way.
It is there, it is more subtle than other elements
of the film. But yeah, I enjoy may not be
the operative word, but is a good, really good film
and I've never seen anything like it, which in many
cases is a even aside from quality, a great recommendation,
but this is a quality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well said, that's I would I would have to
sign on with that. Technically, there are a few hiccups
and then theologically, it's the imagery, you know, and and
the power of Hollywood too to manage stuff like as
serious a question as if if you know, well, the
Dostoyevsky thing, you know, like what did you really trade
this for? Because it's usually not as dramatic in as
as stardom or something. It's it's usually just something really mundane,
like I chose to sit on my fat ass and
watch TV instead of take care of my kids or
you know, uh, my wife or something like that. Right,
But that's still you know, in a manner of speaking
or way of looking at a way of selling your soul.
And it's it. I think you're right that there should
maybe there's room for more treatment of the noir. I
mean I've been saying this, you know, for years now.
Actually that the noir genre, if we want to look
at it that way, holds a lot more possibilities for
film or or books or what have you to manage
the the spiritual and theological stuff then, And yeah, I
mean it couldn't always be done again in in in
New Orleans, which is like you say, so specific but
so right on the money. For some reason, I mean,
why are these I thought this too, as I was
watching it last night, True Detective, and like, you know,
if I get a chance to pick Pizzolado's brain, I
think we've got to ask him. Dude, you saw Angel
Heart at some point, probably when I did. He's about
my age, and it was an influence. Are you gonna
Are you gonna cop to that or not? Because I
mean it's there in all of the again, the blues
lore and whatnot, Highway sixty six and or sixty one.
Excuse me, but but he saw that film and that
had to been an influence on him, and and I agree,
there's there's something about that setup, coming from up north,
going into the South and then winding up in this
incredibly colorful environment, and these elements being juxtapost you know, evil,
good beauty, lust, goodness. It's all there.
Speaker 5: Andy.
Speaker 4: Where can people find you?
Speaker 2: On X? I just dropped my next book today. Actually
I did a little we'll call it like White Orthodoxy Magic,
and I dropped it at three thirty three am. I
set my alarm, I got up, I got onto the
computer and hit publish. So it'll be a little while.
I think that maybe Tilla's actually available to They don't
tell you quite when it'll be you can buy it today, tomorrow,
what have you. But that's called Abstract Operator and it's
out there. It's pretty weird. It's not it's it's not
you know, standard like fiction. But but yeah, look me up,
check the books out. Thanks Jay.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure thing, man. I haven't had a chance to
read Abstract Operator yet. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, man,
I always enjoy you coming on to do these these
media review shows. I know, I said last time I
was gonna let you pick, but I saw this movie
and I was like, I gotta have someone to talk
to about this because otherwise I think I might go crazy.
So I'll let you pick the next one. No, Mickey Rourke,
that's I think my one, uh my one request.
Speaker 2: Agreed, Agreed, we can avoid Mickey. Well, thanks for having me.
I always love it too, man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure thing man. As far as my stuff, The
Jay Burdens Show available on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you
listen to podcasts what I do full time. If you
want to support me, and I do really appreciate it,
you can throw me a few bucks a month on Patreon,
Substack or gum Road and get the episodes early in
ad free or you can check out our sponsor, Axios
Remote Fitness Coaching. I've been under the weather for a
little bit, i haven't been in the gym, sorely miss it,
but nonetheless you should be supporting JD. It's one of
our guys small businessmen. Highly recommend it. Work again, Andy,
I appreciate it, and everyone at home, keep your head up.
Why can't last forever?
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