Speaker 1: Don't be a victim. You have to own your own success.
Speaker 1: Be a hero in your story.
Speaker 2: Not the victim.
Speaker 3: You're listening to the audible Ready podcast, The show that
Speaker 3: helps you and your teams sell more Faster. Will feature
Speaker 3: sales leaders sharing their best insights on how to create
Speaker 3: a sales engine that helps you fuel repeatable revenue growth.
Speaker 3: Presented by the team at Force Management, a leader in
Speaker 3: B to B sales effectiveness. Let's get started.
Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome to the Audible Ready Sales Podcast. I'm
Speaker 4: Rachel kleb Miller. Today we are going to talk about
Speaker 4: what happens when you work for someone who isn't a
Speaker 4: great manager.
Speaker 5: We've all been there.
Speaker 4: I do want to preface this podcast by saying, I
Speaker 4: am not in that situation right now.
Speaker 5: John Taplan joins you discuss Hi.
Speaker 2: John, Hi, Rachel, good clarification.
Speaker 5: Get the clarification out there at the top.
Speaker 4: So John, what we've all We've all been there, and
Speaker 4: some people listening right now might be nodding their heads
Speaker 4: in agreement. You out there, maybe in a situation where
Speaker 4: you're not really ready to leave for whatever reason. So
Speaker 4: you have to maneuver through this current state of working
Speaker 4: for a bad manager and.
Speaker 5: Try your best.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the reality check is Unfortunately, great leadership,
Speaker 1: great management is it's rare, and so I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, seventy to eighty percent of the time, you're
Speaker 1: going to work for mediocre or even in some unfortunate situations,
Speaker 1: bad managers. And you know, so we all want to
Speaker 1: work for good people. But if we're not working for
Speaker 1: you know, good quality managers or leaders, there's there's some
Speaker 1: things that you can do to improve your experience. And
Speaker 1: it reminds me the reality check was a good one
Speaker 1: and I got it at a young age. So I'll
Speaker 1: just tell a quick story, Rachel, if you're okay with it.
Speaker 1: I was a high school football player. I was pretty
Speaker 1: good high school football player, and I was playing in
Speaker 1: a big game. We were playing against a team that
Speaker 1: had an outstanding opponent, a running back that went on
Speaker 1: to play in the Big Ten. And so at that game,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of pressure. There was a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of college coaches there to see this person.
Speaker 1: And I knew that if you know, if I did
Speaker 1: well against this individual, that they were also going to
Speaker 1: see me. And there was an opportunity in the game.
Speaker 1: At the end of the first half where I actually
Speaker 1: knew what the play was going to be. I could
Speaker 1: figure out to play quickly. And he was a running back.
Speaker 1: I was linebacker, which meant I, you know, I was.
Speaker 1: He had the ball and I was going to tackle him,
Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, I was so hyped up. I
Speaker 1: just launched myself as a human missile and left my
Speaker 1: feet and we were about the same size, and so
Speaker 1: I just kind of crumpled off him and he scampered
Speaker 1: for like a fifty yard touchdown, and I was devastated,
Speaker 1: Like like I was, like, you know, walking slow into
Speaker 1: the locker room. We get in the locker room and
Speaker 1: this coach that I had in high school, he was
Speaker 1: he's like screaming at the team about you know, telling
Speaker 1: me he's like Captain Obvious today, like you see that
Speaker 1: guy on TV commercials, Captain Obvious. And he gets to
Speaker 1: me and he says, you know, Kaplin, you got to
Speaker 1: make that tackle. And I remember looking at him and
Speaker 1: thinking to myself, are you kidding me? Like that's the
Speaker 1: coaching and development that you're going to give to me,
Speaker 1: Like I've got to tackle that person, Like like I like,
Speaker 1: I don't know that I have to tackle that person.
Speaker 1: But what was interesting to me is after the game,
Speaker 1: one of the greatest coaches of my life was my dad.
Speaker 1: And my dad came up to me and he's like, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, how you feeling whatever? And I'm like, oh, Dad, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I struggled out there today, and he goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: and he said to me, he said, hey, when did
Speaker 1: you start leaving your feet when you make a tackle?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you know, I didn't even realize i'd
Speaker 1: noticed that, kind of like after the film or what
Speaker 1: have you. And I'm like, I don't know. And he goes,
Speaker 1: how much you think that running back weigh And I said,
Speaker 1: he's probably, like, you know, two hundred and fifteen pounds.
Speaker 1: And he says, and what are you weighing right now?
Speaker 1: I said two hundred and fifteen pounds and he said, well,
Speaker 1: not when you hit him. You know, you're probably half
Speaker 1: your body weight when you hit him. And so that
Speaker 1: Rachel became for me, the screaming at the scoreboard, and
Speaker 1: that my coach was actually screaming at the scoreboard. I
Speaker 1: went back and thought about it. We're in the locker
Speaker 1: room when we needed coaching and development the most. He
Speaker 1: was like screaming at the scoreboard and telling us what
Speaker 1: the score was and hoping that it would change. And
Speaker 1: I remember in that moment thinking, you know what, if
Speaker 1: I ever become a coach or if I'm in that,
Speaker 1: if I'm ever in that situation, I sure hope that
Speaker 1: I don't do that. So I've been really sensitive to
Speaker 1: it throughout the rest of my career, and that screaming
Speaker 1: at the scoreboard is a really really good mantra for
Speaker 1: all of us to think about when we're in those situations.
Speaker 4: Right, it's pointing out the obvious. Hey, we're not making
Speaker 4: our number. Yeah, no, kidding, got it right. And we
Speaker 4: have another phrase that we use, John, provide the how.
Speaker 4: That's how your coach, you manage, you teach, you provide
Speaker 4: the how. So if you've got some scoreboard screamers that
Speaker 4: you're working for, let's we're going to shift this podcast
Speaker 4: now to talk about what you can do.
Speaker 5: So John, let's go there.
Speaker 4: So first, probably is being specific outlining where you need
Speaker 4: how specifically.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean what we need from our managers is
Speaker 1: to provide the what and the how. And if we're
Speaker 1: really lucky, Rachel, we will work for people over time
Speaker 1: who will also start with the why. So great leaders,
Speaker 1: when I think about it, before they go to the
Speaker 1: what and how, they start with the why. And so
Speaker 1: if you're blessed enough to be working for somebody that
Speaker 1: starts with the why. You just chaerish it because it's
Speaker 1: really really rare. And if you're a leader out there
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, first start with the why. The
Speaker 1: what and the how become a lot easier and a
Speaker 1: lot easier for people to consume. But let's stay on
Speaker 1: this topic for a second. Let's talk about the what
Speaker 1: and the how. So for me, it's about let your
Speaker 1: work for a leader or a manager who's mediocre or
Speaker 1: just is a bad manager. You still need these certain things.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the what and how. You still need
Speaker 1: what I call knowledge skills, and this defines your character,
Speaker 1: so you know, go get it in your company, ask
Speaker 1: questions about it. Let's talk about the knowledge that you need.
Speaker 1: I don't care who you're working for. You need the
Speaker 1: answer to the four central questions. What problems do we
Speaker 1: solve for our customers? How specifically do we solve them,
Speaker 1: How do we solve them differently or better than anybody else?
Speaker 1: And where have we done it before? What skills do
Speaker 1: you need? No matter what, you have to learn how
Speaker 1: to attach to the biggest business issues facing your customers.
Speaker 1: You have to influence decision criteria with your differentiation, and
Speaker 1: you've got to be a voracious qualifier. Well, you've heard
Speaker 1: us talk about medpick. Go learn medpick. There's a high
Speaker 1: probability there's somebody in your ORGANI sation that understands medpick.
Speaker 1: Go on our website. First of all, I commend you
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this podcast, you already get a
Speaker 1: lot of these topics we're talking about, regardless of whether
Speaker 1: your company or your manager is teaching them to you.
Speaker 1: So we've got a lot of blogs out there, a
Speaker 1: lot of posts that we have on medpick. We also
Speaker 1: have a lot of information out there on how to
Speaker 1: attach to big business issues and influencing your decision criteria
Speaker 1: with your differentiation. So those four essential questions and that differentiation,
Speaker 1: you got to get that from people inside your company.
Speaker 1: And so we can talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: the people aspect of this, about where you might be
Speaker 1: able to go.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think you know two things, John. First,
Speaker 4: you said, if somebody is providing a why and providing
Speaker 4: the how, giving you the why, providing and how telling
Speaker 4: you how.
Speaker 5: To do it.
Speaker 4: That's a great situation to be in, and you as
Speaker 4: salesperson need to make sure you're listening and trusting the process.
Speaker 4: But if you don't have it, you just ran through
Speaker 4: some good things about outlining where you need help.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The other thing you can do, which which I know
Speaker 4: that you've probably done in your career too, and I've
Speaker 4: done it too in a in.
Speaker 5: A poor working environment.
Speaker 4: Is to use the people around me, the ones that
Speaker 4: are being successful. They may just they may not be
Speaker 4: above me, they may be my peers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Rachel, I think that there's always when you want
Speaker 1: to I remember being in Europe and traveling around to
Speaker 1: all these places, like there's no shortage of great places
Speaker 1: to go visit. And so we were living there and
Speaker 1: I was my kids were young, and I'm carrying my kids,
Speaker 1: I'm carrying bags, I'm carrying all this stuff, and I
Speaker 1: had this little mantra in my head that like, if
Speaker 1: I wanted to understand if a place was worth going to,
Speaker 1: I found somebody coming back from that place. And what
Speaker 1: that means to me is there's always somebody in a
Speaker 1: company that's been to a place that you haven't been to,
Speaker 1: and you should go ask them what that place is
Speaker 1: like and how to get to that place. So that
Speaker 1: was always a really good reminder for me. And I remember,
Speaker 1: like my first manager at Xerox right out of college
Speaker 1: was a wall wasn't even there most of the time.
Speaker 1: So it was really really a strange situation. And I
Speaker 1: was introduced to this concept early. And I was lucky
Speaker 1: because there were great reps in the office and I'm
Speaker 1: going to give some shout outs here, so great you know,
Speaker 1: experienced sales leaders and salespeople like Phil Maxim and Dave
Speaker 1: Murphy and John Slaw and Cindy Bowler, and I went
Speaker 1: to them. So my boss wasn't even around and wasn't
Speaker 1: even in the office and wasn't even having meetings with me.
Speaker 1: So I was really really lucky to to go to
Speaker 1: those people and just ask them basic questions about the role.
Speaker 1: And they were wonderful. I mean, I think they actually
Speaker 1: had some empathy for me. They didn't seek me out
Speaker 1: and say, hey, you know, your situation sucks, but since
Speaker 1: I sought them out, they were ready and willing to
Speaker 1: help me. And it was a really really cool experience
Speaker 1: for me. And then also I banded together with a
Speaker 1: couple of other new reps. At the time I was
Speaker 1: new and there was a couple of other new reps
Speaker 1: and were in the exact same situation as me. Rachel
Speaker 1: and Keith Shaw is one of them, and Ron Nelson
Speaker 1: they're dear friends of mine today, and they were some
Speaker 1: of the first sales people that I looked around and
Speaker 1: I'm like, who else is in a similar situation is me?
Speaker 1: And I went and talked to them and I'm like, hey,
Speaker 1: are you learning what you think you need to be learning?
Speaker 1: Here are you? And so we kind of taught each
Speaker 1: other and we did things like we'd meet at like
Speaker 1: seven am in the office and we had this thing
Speaker 1: like in fronts, and we'd say, Okay, we're going to
Speaker 1: go in front today. We're going to go in front
Speaker 1: of our customers. And how many infronts can you get?
Speaker 1: And so it was how many meetings could we get
Speaker 1: in a day? And the interesting that happened there Rachel
Speaker 1: was Dave Murphy was one of the senior sellers in
Speaker 1: the office, and he saw what we were doing, and
Speaker 1: there was so much energy around what we were doing.
Speaker 1: We started to compete with each other, and we started
Speaker 1: to bet each other about you know, who would be
Speaker 1: who would be you know, who would have the most sales,
Speaker 1: And a senior seller, Rachel came down to our level
Speaker 1: and got involved in our mix, started coming and meeting
Speaker 1: with us at seven in the morning, and he was
Speaker 1: teaching us. And when I asked him about it years later,
Speaker 1: I'm like, why did you come to like our situation?
Speaker 1: And he said, I saw the energy that you guys
Speaker 1: were creating around learning and I needed that energy too.
Speaker 1: I was more than happy to help you guys with
Speaker 1: the information you didn't have, but what you guys absolutely
Speaker 1: helped me with was the intensity around the energy of
Speaker 1: going out and doing your job. And so it's a
Speaker 1: really really cool experience. It's something you know, it's thirty
Speaker 1: plus years ago, and it's something I still value today
Speaker 1: and have relationships with those people today.
Speaker 5: That's a great story.
Speaker 4: I think many of us can relate to times in
Speaker 4: our career when we just had a great camaraderie with
Speaker 4: the people who were trying to do the same things
Speaker 4: we were and working together on that team. And also,
Speaker 4: you know, going through going through some challenging situations, you
Speaker 4: might you might.
Speaker 1: Say, yeah, yeah, you're kind of there's there's kind of
Speaker 1: unity in the sucks sometimes, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: there's and it builds character for the for the individuals
Speaker 1: that are embracing their situation saying hey, like let's do
Speaker 1: something about it.
Speaker 2: Pretty cool?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: And then the other point to make here, that's sort
Speaker 4: of this underlying theme in what you're saying, John, is
Speaker 4: that no matter our situations and the in which we
Speaker 4: work with the managers that are above us, it's important
Speaker 4: to remember that we own our success.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I don't want to lecture people here.
Speaker 1: I really want to give you spirit right now. The
Speaker 1: excuse department is closed when you're talking about your performance.
Speaker 1: Don't be a victim of a bad manager or bad leadership.
Speaker 1: You have to be the hero in the story. And
Speaker 1: we've talked about a few ways to do that. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you got to ask
Speaker 1: yourself right now, what area is in my job or
Speaker 1: career am I feeling like a victim? Or you know,
Speaker 1: if that language is too strong for you, like where
Speaker 1: are you feeling wrong? You know, if you think about
Speaker 1: your current situation, where do I feel wrong? That's always
Speaker 1: meant something to me and then you got to ask yourself,
Speaker 1: how can I be the hero in the story? Like,
Speaker 1: can I go seek out somebody in products to help
Speaker 1: me with the answers to the four es central question?
Speaker 1: Can I go seek out a senior seller? My dad
Speaker 1: used to tell me when I was in a tough situation.
Speaker 1: It used to say to me, you're going to get
Speaker 1: a chance to tell the story. I want you to
Speaker 1: think about yourself twenty years from now and what's that
Speaker 1: story going to be? And it always, it always really
Speaker 1: resonated with me. So whatever situation and you're in right now,
Speaker 1: we're all going to everybody's got a story. You're going
Speaker 1: to get a chance to tell your story. You know,
Speaker 1: twenty years from now, what's that going to be? Are
Speaker 1: you're going to be the hero and the story? Are
Speaker 1: you going to be the victim and the story? It's
Speaker 1: a real, real powerful concept.
Speaker 4: Yes, you own it, right, we own our success. And
Speaker 4: you know, as Beyonce said to the left to the left, worst.
Speaker 1: Case, I love that you can get.
Speaker 4: Your job pipelined together. Make a change. Yeah, don't stay
Speaker 4: in the same situation. Don't scream at your own scoreboard, right,
Speaker 4: give yourself a way, a way up a way out.
Speaker 5: So, John, when you were in.
Speaker 4: These situations or when you knew it was time to
Speaker 4: leave whatever company you were working for, how did.
Speaker 5: You start putting feelers out there that you were starting.
Speaker 1: To look Yeah, really good question. So you know today
Speaker 1: it's not hard, you know, to look for other opportunities.
Speaker 1: There's more job openings today than there are candidates, so
Speaker 1: you know, use your networks. And we could have a
Speaker 1: whole other conversation about how to look for great opportunity.
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I think we did a
Speaker 1: blog one time, Rachel, about where we talked about what
Speaker 1: to look for in other companies. You might put that
Speaker 1: in the show notes here, but yeah, a lot of
Speaker 1: content around that. But for me, I want to make
Speaker 1: a very strong statement here, don't leave a company or
Speaker 1: a bad manager. Don't leave a company or a bad manager.
Speaker 1: Sprint to a great company and a great management team.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of people that make the mistake
Speaker 1: of saying I'm just going to get out, and they
Speaker 1: don't really utilize their experiences good and bad for vetting
Speaker 1: any new opportunities. And so like a lot of times
Speaker 1: I'll say to somebody, they'll say, hey, what do you
Speaker 1: think about this company abouba, and I'll tell them about
Speaker 1: it and they'll say, you know, you think I should
Speaker 1: join that? And I'll say, well, why are you leaving?
Speaker 1: Why are you leaving where you're at? And why can't
Speaker 1: you get that at where you're at? And it's really
Speaker 1: important for you to contemplate that because there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people that aren't really identifying with what's forcing
Speaker 1: them to look for something else, and then they don't
Speaker 1: utilize that information to make sure that they vet the
Speaker 1: new company. You know, for example, the answers to the
Speaker 1: four central questions, how do you influence decision criteria with
Speaker 1: your yeah, with your differentiation, like they don't that a
Speaker 1: new company. To make sure a new company has that
Speaker 1: available to them. So in the interview process, ask the
Speaker 1: hiring manager about the knowledge skills and therefore the character
Speaker 1: required for the job, and also ask you know, you
Speaker 1: got to also ask the hiring manager for I love
Speaker 1: this question. Ask the hiring manager for examples on how
Speaker 1: they coach and develop new reps, not how the company
Speaker 1: does it, not what sales development does, how do you
Speaker 1: do it? Give me some examples of where you've coached
Speaker 1: and develop your reps around what types of common challenges.
Speaker 1: The great ones will always be prepared with an answer.
Speaker 1: I'd also ask to speak to existing reps that are
Speaker 1: working for this hiring manager or working in this culture,
Speaker 1: because I want to know if it's a consistent answer.
Speaker 4: That's such a good point, John, because when we're in
Speaker 4: a bad situation in our work environments, we are often
Speaker 4: we can make that mistake that you talk about, you're
Speaker 4: so miserable that you'll just look for anything to get
Speaker 4: out of that situation. And you'll take everybody at their
Speaker 4: word in the interview, and people have some good talking
Speaker 4: points in these interviews. So I love the point that
Speaker 4: you just said about getting specific ask the manager what
Speaker 4: specifically are you doing to manage your reps, and then
Speaker 4: asking people who work for that person.
Speaker 5: That's a really great tip. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, as you said, John, we could talk about this
Speaker 4: for a while. I have some stories of my own
Speaker 4: of work environments I was in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we all have. Everybody's got a story.
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, yeah, But let's end it here, go ahead
Speaker 4: and wrap us up. I'm going to ask you for
Speaker 4: the bottom line for everybody out there listening today.
Speaker 2: You got it.
Speaker 1: You got it, And so look, people listening out there.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be cynical on this topic. Great
Speaker 1: managers and great leaders are rare. They're not rare because
Speaker 1: they're bad people. It's just rare because it's hard. It's
Speaker 1: hard to be a great manager, it's hard to be
Speaker 1: a great leader. So just going into that, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying accept it, but I'm also saying that, don't be
Speaker 1: a victim. You have to own your own success. Be
Speaker 1: a hero in your story, not the victim. Identified the knowledge,
Speaker 1: skills and character required for a role and vet a
Speaker 1: company and a leadership a leadership team on how they
Speaker 1: bring that knowledge and scare knowledge and skills and that
Speaker 1: character to an organization. How do they do that? The
Speaker 1: grass is not greener on the other side. It's not
Speaker 1: always greener on the other side. So make sure you're
Speaker 1: running to something and not away from something. And then
Speaker 1: let me just give you a little spirit. The fact
Speaker 1: that you're listening to this podcast and others Rachel like
Speaker 1: Revenue Builders is also a great one with my great
Speaker 1: friend and co host John McMahon. And John McMahon wrote
Speaker 1: a book called The Qualified Sales Leader, and many of
Speaker 1: our listeners already know about these things. So if you're
Speaker 1: doing these things, you get it. If you haven't heard
Speaker 1: of these things before, but you're listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: you're well on your way. You own your own success.
Speaker 1: And I commend you for listening to podcasts like this.
Speaker 1: It's a great example. Keep doing it.
Speaker 4: That's great, John, run to something, not away from something.
Speaker 1: Amen.
Speaker 4: All right, and thank you for the plug for revenue builders. Also,
Speaker 4: you can catch that on all the podcasts. Wherever podcasts
Speaker 4: are published, we publish new episodes every Thursday. We are
Speaker 4: running a product podcast production house up in here, John.
Speaker 2: Yeah, been here.
Speaker 1: I like that. I love it and.
Speaker 4: Always thank you to all of you for continuing to
Speaker 4: listen to this one, the Audible Ready Sales Podcast.
Speaker 5: Have a great day.
Speaker 6: At Force Management, we're focused on transforming sales organizations into
Speaker 6: elite teams. Our proven methodologies deliver programs that build company
Speaker 6: alignment and fuel repeatable revenue growth. Give your teams the
Speaker 6: ability to execute the growth strategy at the point of sale.
Speaker 6: Our strength is our experience. The proof is in our results.
Speaker 6: Let's get started. Visit us at forcemanagement dot com.
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