Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Constance Video.
Speaker 2: Or one of those nights here on w b Z.
Speaker 2: Kind of a little bit of craziness there in the
Speaker 2: last half hour. Sorry about that. We had a guest
Speaker 2: who was supposed to call in at a certain time
Speaker 2: on the issue of booster seats for kids and cars,
Speaker 2: which would have been good information, but that person dropped
Speaker 2: the ball, and my producers and I tried to make
Speaker 2: make do with as best we could. It's unfortunate that
Speaker 2: people who you line up from major companies by the
Speaker 2: way to help them out and talk about information that
Speaker 2: is a value to my listeners aren't focused enough to
Speaker 2: be available or to call in when they're supposed to
Speaker 2: call in, and then you can't find them. So I
Speaker 2: will apologize on behalf of that guest. I guarantee you
Speaker 2: that guest will never be invited to be on Night
Speaker 2: Side again. It's the only way we can respond to that.
Speaker 2: Now we have we have two guests. As I mentioned
Speaker 2: in the last hour, we're going to learn about a
Speaker 2: lot about as cap fees, UH and UH. With this
Speaker 2: lawsuit that has been filed against I guess not only
Speaker 2: a club in Providence, Rhode Island, but a few others.
Speaker 2: So we have we have two guests lined up. We
Speaker 2: invited the owner of the club in question in Providence,
Speaker 2: Rhode Island. Again, I'm referring to a pieces in the
Speaker 2: Boston Globe on I believe it was on Tuesday out
Speaker 2: of Providence, Rhode Island. The bar or whatever you want
Speaker 2: to call it, Fish Company on Bridge Street in Providence,
Speaker 2: Rhode Islands facing a copyright infringement lawsuit because three songs
Speaker 2: were performed during karaoke there in May with us are
Speaker 2: two guests. One is Jackson Wagoner. Jackson, I hope pronouncing
Speaker 2: your name correctly. He is the as CAP Senior Vice
Speaker 2: President of Business and Legal Affairs. I appreciate you being
Speaker 2: available on a Friday night. And a songwriter. I believe
Speaker 2: he's local. Robert ellis oral Robert. Welcome. Are you from
Speaker 2: the great of Boston and the New England area.
Speaker 3: I grew up here and after spending about a thirty
Speaker 3: years stint in Nashville, I'm back.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, welcome back, welcome back to platedly. Okay, So
Speaker 2: let's start off with the attorney Jackson Wagner, and I
Speaker 2: think I've explained to the audience. You probably didn't listen,
Speaker 2: but in the ten minutes before the nine o'clock news
Speaker 2: we talked about, you know, ASCAP functions under a nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy six copyright law. Why don't you, Jackson, describe to
Speaker 2: us from the ASCAP point of view, why this law
Speaker 2: is necessary to protect the interest of writers and composers
Speaker 2: and musicians.
Speaker 4: Great, sure, Ann, thanks for having me on. I appreciate
Speaker 4: the time. So to start with, I think it's important
Speaker 4: to understand what as CAP is and what we do.
Speaker 4: So as CAP is actually a membership membership association. We
Speaker 4: represent the rights of more than one million music creators.
Speaker 4: Our members are songwriters, composers, lyricists, and music publishers. They
Speaker 4: publish music across and write music across every conceivable genre
Speaker 4: of music and so on. Behalf of those members as
Speaker 4: CAP goes out and we license the right to publicly
Speaker 4: perform their music, and we license that right to all
Speaker 4: sorts of businesses that use music, you know, sort of
Speaker 4: for more traditional music use companies like commercial radio, local
Speaker 4: television you know, cable and broadcast TV, to the sort
Speaker 4: of the newer generation of music companies, you know, music
Speaker 4: streaming services like Spotify, Apple and the like and audio
Speaker 4: visual companies like Hulu and Netflix, and of course as
Speaker 4: well to live music venues, and so we license the
Speaker 4: rights to those companies on behalf of our members. So
Speaker 4: in essence, as CAAP focuses on the business side so
Speaker 4: that our members who are songwriters can focus on the
Speaker 4: creative side, continue to focus on their craft and write
Speaker 4: the music that we all know and love. ASCAP's also
Speaker 4: unique because we operate on a not for profit basis,
Speaker 4: and what that actually means is that we're really good
Speaker 4: and really efficient at getting money into the hands of
Speaker 4: our members. In fact, about ninety cents of every dollar
Speaker 4: that we collect is distributed to our members as royalties.
Speaker 2: So Sycha mentioned that how much does ASCALP collect them?
Speaker 2: Just curry us overall? It must be a multi million
Speaker 2: dollar effort. What do you think of all the venues
Speaker 2: that utilize music? Is it one hundred million dollars a year?
Speaker 4: Ye oh, it's more than that, Yes, it's it's close
Speaker 4: to a billion in half. I think it's above that.
Speaker 2: It's so it's a lot, it's yeah.
Speaker 4: Okay, you rightfully point out there there are you know,
Speaker 4: many music users across the country, and really music use
Speaker 4: is ubiquitous, right, you see it everywhere nowadays.
Speaker 2: Sure, Uh, you know, and when you when you license folks.
Speaker 2: And again you said that you're a nonprofit, and I
Speaker 2: understand that you're you're a membership association which is intended
Speaker 2: to benefit its members. I understand that totally. I'm assuming that,
Speaker 2: for example, you must have a different level of cost.
Speaker 2: I assume you're not charging CBS or or NBC or
Speaker 2: ABC major television networks the same that you would be
Speaker 2: charging this club in profitence Rhode Island. I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't need to know how much they're they're going to
Speaker 2: be charged, but I assume that it's it's dependent upon
Speaker 2: how reliant, how reliant and an individual or an institution
Speaker 2: is on music, that there's a correlation between that reliance
Speaker 2: and the amount that they have to pay.
Speaker 4: That's absolutely correct. And the reality is, you know, we
Speaker 4: want businesses, you know, all sorts of different businesses to
Speaker 4: use our members music, sure, and we want them to
Speaker 4: be successful when they do that. We just want to
Speaker 4: ensure that fair compensation is then paid to the music creators.
Speaker 4: And one of the ways we ensure that is by having,
Speaker 4: like you said, licenses that really are suited to the
Speaker 4: needs of the business, to their size, to their use
Speaker 4: of music, and to ensure that licenses as are affordable.
Speaker 2: So so again without I'm not trying to, you know,
Speaker 2: pick information that that I have no right to. So somehow,
Speaker 2: some way, you folks almost like the I r S.
Speaker 2: Every year, the i r S will indict people in
Speaker 2: February and March from different backgrounds to let people know
Speaker 2: that hey, it's time to do your taxes and do
Speaker 2: them honestly. So as I understand this global article that
Speaker 2: you guys participated in, and you've been quoted in Jackson,
Speaker 2: you're suing about nine business establishments around the country which
Speaker 2: might be characterized as smaller venues. You recently filed a
Speaker 2: lawsuit against some sort of a bar in Wooburn, Massachusetts,
Speaker 2: which is close to where we are, and now you
Speaker 2: have one in Providence, Rhode Island. But these are people who, obviously,
Speaker 2: I assume, I'm very recalcitrate that you went to them
Speaker 2: in a reasonable fashion, said hey would like you to
Speaker 2: would like to license you so you can play music,
Speaker 2: And it appears to me that they have are not
Speaker 2: particularly interested in participating. And now you filed federal lawsuits
Speaker 2: against these establishments across the country. Is that accurate, right, Dan?
Speaker 4: So you are correct, essentially, you know, the reality is
Speaker 4: that we view litigation as a last resort and so
Speaker 4: you're absolutely right that these you know, establishments that were
Speaker 4: sued last week are retelcitrant. And really what I mean
Speaker 4: by that is, you know, we we really make repeated
Speaker 4: efforts to license venues, especially in this space, right before
Speaker 4: we resort to a federal lawsuit, and and you know,
Speaker 4: we reach out in various ways over the course of
Speaker 4: usually a year or more, and usually you know, there
Speaker 4: are dozens of contacts or attempts to contact the establishment owners.
Speaker 4: And through those contacts, we emphasize to the you know,
Speaker 4: part of its educational Dan, right, we we want to
Speaker 4: explain who we are, we explain what we do. We
Speaker 4: explain to the licensees that the the royalties at ASCAP
Speaker 4: generates on behalf of its members are are incredibly important
Speaker 4: to the music creators, right. And that's because for for
Speaker 4: many songwriters, you know, the royalties that they earn from
Speaker 4: ASKAP are actually their primary source of income.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: It's it's how they put food on the table, it's
Speaker 4: how they pay rent. Right.
Speaker 2: If it's okay, I just need to take a quick
Speaker 2: break here. When we get back, I want to talk
Speaker 2: about that a little bit, because I assume that a
Speaker 2: lot of the singers or or musicians or performers whatever
Speaker 2: you want to call, whose songs are being utilized, whether
Speaker 2: it's you know, John Denver you know song or a
Speaker 2: Garth Brooks song here, that those are the ones that
Speaker 2: are most popular. And I'll be interested as to whether
Speaker 2: you I assume you can keep track of what every
Speaker 2: little venue does, and I'm just interested in how the
Speaker 2: benefit is apportioned. And then we'll take some phone calls
Speaker 2: if it's okay. And I also want to hear from
Speaker 2: our other guest, who is who's a songwriter, Robert Ellis
Speaker 2: orrel about his reliance on this. You've explained that very
Speaker 2: well so far, Jackson, and I so appreciate you coming
Speaker 2: on tonight because I would be flying blind without both
Speaker 2: of you. I wish that the owner of the club
Speaker 2: had been willing to come on, but he was invited,
Speaker 2: and we didn't speak with him personally, but he certainly
Speaker 2: has has had an invitation. He chose not to participate.
Speaker 2: We'll take a quick break and we're going to be back,
Speaker 2: and we're going to learn a lot about when you
Speaker 2: go to a bar, you go to a restaurant. In
Speaker 2: this music playing in the background, there's a cost associated
Speaker 2: with that, and we'll explain. We'll continue to explain why
Speaker 2: my name's Dan Ray and this is night Side. If
Speaker 2: you'd like to join the conversation, If you're a musician
Speaker 2: or someone out there who benefits from this, feel free
Speaker 2: to call in six one seven, two, five, four to
Speaker 2: ten thirty. If you're a bar owner, you feel it's onerous,
Speaker 2: you feel you're free to call in, Or if you're
Speaker 2: just a listener and want to offer your opinion, you
Speaker 2: are always free to call in six one, seven, two,
Speaker 2: five four to ten thirty and six one seven, nine
Speaker 2: three one ten thirty Back on nights Side. Fascinating subject
Speaker 2: topic as far as I'm concerned, Legal implications and allotted
Speaker 2: stake cumulatively. Will be back right after this.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 1: Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: All right, we're talking with Jackson Wagner. He is the
Speaker 2: senior vice president of business in Legal Affairs for an
Speaker 2: organization called ASCAP, which is the American Society of Composers,
Speaker 2: authors and publishers. That is a group that basically ensures
Speaker 2: that when music is played at a commercial location in America,
Speaker 2: that there is a license under a nineteen seventy six
Speaker 2: copyright law that is the law of the land. So
Speaker 2: it's almost fifty years old, and apparently some of the
Speaker 2: smaller venues around the country are not as cooperative. I mean,
Speaker 2: I look at this as a big pyramid that at
Speaker 2: the top of the pyramid at the major networks and
Speaker 2: the Spotify and the things that really rely upon music obviously,
Speaker 2: and then down the bottom you have maybe some smaller locations, bars, etc.
Speaker 2: Who probably think that they can avoid it. From the
Speaker 2: point of view of the performers, how important is this
Speaker 2: to you, Robert Ellis, or you're a songwriter. I don't
Speaker 2: know how many big hits you've had. You may have
Speaker 2: had twenty big hits, but whether or not your songs
Speaker 2: are being played at karaoke bars, how important is that
Speaker 2: the principle is upheld and people like yourself have access
Speaker 2: to the royalties that come from the work you've done.
Speaker 3: Well, sure you know everything everything in our in my
Speaker 3: family's life, our house are closed, our food, everything for
Speaker 3: the last thirty five years has been paid for by royalties.
Speaker 3: And part of that is because I've been lucky enough
Speaker 3: to have a lot of songs that do end up
Speaker 3: in the public space, whether on the radio or in
Speaker 3: concerts or or as something as simple as a karaoke night.
Speaker 3: Every dollar that is that is that brought in from
Speaker 3: some the playing of those songs that make people happy
Speaker 3: and they enjoy listening to. You know, Uh, there's no
Speaker 3: way that there's no way for us to know who's
Speaker 3: playing what where, But as Gap is an organization that
Speaker 3: I belonged to Newsons nineteen eighty one, the same year
Speaker 3: I sign with r c A Records, and uh knew that,
Speaker 3: you know, chan's a pretty good that I was gonna
Speaker 3: start having some songs in the radio as a performer,
Speaker 3: but then went on to move to Nashville and write
Speaker 3: songs for a lot of people that people listen to.
Speaker 3: And I've had about three hundred and fifty songs recorded, so,
Speaker 3: you know, and sort of non genre specific, everyone from
Speaker 3: uh Reva McIntyre to Lindsey Lowhand, movies like you know, Hannah, Montana,
Speaker 3: Danity whatever.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let me let me ask you this. Robert
Speaker 2: if I could. Okay, obviously there's some songs that are universal.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Sweet Caroline. I'm sure he has
Speaker 2: played at every karaoke bar in America at some point
Speaker 2: y m c A. I'm sure those are the songs
Speaker 2: that I assume you find it karaoke bars. Do you
Speaker 2: get paid royalties? I mean, does ASCAP actually track how
Speaker 2: where your song is played? Do you get a report
Speaker 2: every month? And does the estate of John Denver get
Speaker 2: a report as to how often you know Rocky Mountain
Speaker 2: High has been played? Or does everyone It's.
Speaker 3: Not that specific. I mean it's like, obviously I'm not
Speaker 3: gonna get a report about who played what in what
Speaker 3: are but and and as to the way the formula
Speaker 3: works for for ASCAP to distribute, it is a very
Speaker 3: very complicated formula. But what they but when the when
Speaker 3: the money comes from radio stations, television stations, theaters, clubs, stadiums,
Speaker 3: uh and it's always you know, it's it's it's it's
Speaker 3: worked out as a percentage of you know, of what
Speaker 3: of what the money coming into those businesses.
Speaker 2: Are in what I'm trying to what I'm trying, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to simplify it Robert from my audience, And if
Speaker 2: I'm asking an oversimplified question, I'm assuming that just as
Speaker 2: there's a pyramid of the at the top of the
Speaker 2: pyramid of the networks and the big music providers, and
Speaker 2: towards the bottom of the pyramid is the karaoke songs.
Speaker 2: If someone wrote one song that actually was produced somewhere
Speaker 2: and released, does that person get Does everybody get the
Speaker 2: same amount of money as you know? Or does Stevie
Speaker 2: wonder and people who have had music that has been
Speaker 2: on forever do they get more? How does it just?
Speaker 2: How does it work? In other words, you've got a
Speaker 2: million members, does everybody get an equivalent cut? Or do
Speaker 2: they do you get put in the category and say, well,
Speaker 2: these these folks, you know, major artists are going to
Speaker 2: get they'll they'll they'll cut, they'll cut up twenty percent.
Speaker 2: How does it work?
Speaker 3: No, No, it's really based on the percentage your your
Speaker 3: how much your songs are getting played versus anyone else.
Speaker 3: So if if there's a if there's a television state,
Speaker 3: say CBS in one year has fifteen, it's h This
Speaker 3: is really hard to explain because it's based on a
Speaker 3: mathematical formula where It has nothing to do with popularity,
Speaker 3: It has nothing to do with if you've been in
Speaker 3: the business for a long time, you get more money.
Speaker 2: So I assume it has to do with usage. I'm
Speaker 2: going to save you some time here. It probably has
Speaker 2: to do with usage.
Speaker 3: Actual usage.
Speaker 2: Yes, actual usage. So you might have written a theme
Speaker 2: song that nobody would know that you wrote it, but
Speaker 2: it's it's the theme song for I don't know, you know,
Speaker 2: pick the most popular TV show these days, for Dancing
Speaker 2: with the Stars or whatever the most So, so it's
Speaker 2: based upon usage. And let me come back to Jackson. Jackson,
Speaker 2: I assume that you folks have some idea about what
Speaker 2: music is being played, and so you try to do
Speaker 2: it as fairly as equitably as you can.
Speaker 4: And that's absolutely right. And to be clear, we actually
Speaker 4: have a core principle that we try to abide by
Speaker 4: in making distributions to our member to our members, we
Speaker 4: call it follow the dollar. And what follow the dollar
Speaker 4: means is that the money that comes in from any
Speaker 4: licensee or a particular class of licensees gets distributed to
Speaker 4: the musicians, to the songwriters and the music creator whose
Speaker 4: music is played on that medium. So a perfect example
Speaker 4: is commercial radio. Right, money comes in from commercial radio
Speaker 4: stations across the country, and as cap UH spends uh,
Speaker 4: you know, significant time and resources in tracking performances. I'm
Speaker 4: literally it's trillions with a t trillions of performances per
Speaker 4: year that we track across various media. So in commercial radio,
Speaker 4: for instance, you know, we get detailed data from radio
Speaker 4: stations about what's being played. We you know, we we
Speaker 4: we tie that back to the money that comes in
Speaker 4: from radio, and then we distributed to the members whose
Speaker 4: music is being performed, you know, in accordance with the
Speaker 4: number of performances. So the more you know, uh, if
Speaker 4: your music is played, more you're getting paid, you know more.
Speaker 2: I got it, Okay, So let me ask you. Let
Speaker 2: me ask you this question. Then I'm assuming that the
Speaker 2: the big corporations, you know, whether it's again, you know, CBS, ABC, NBC,
Speaker 2: or I work at an iHeart radio station. We don't
Speaker 2: play music, but we're news, news and talk radio station.
Speaker 2: But I'm sure you have a deal with with iHeart
Speaker 2: that covers all the radio stations you're not negotiating a
Speaker 2: deal with. We have eight hundred iHeart radio stations around
Speaker 2: the country. So I'm assuming that you use some efficiencies
Speaker 2: when you're dealing with a radio network.
Speaker 4: Correct, Oh, absolutely, I mean that's okay. One of the
Speaker 4: value propositions you know of.
Speaker 2: A caps invented so and it's a negotiation and you
Speaker 2: come to an agreement and you sign a contract for
Speaker 2: a year or three years whatever. It is. Rough percentage
Speaker 2: when you talk about karaoke restaurants like this place in Providence,
Speaker 2: Rhode Island, or the place that you suit in Wouburn,
Speaker 2: give me a rough idea about what percentage of the
Speaker 2: overall income you say you have overall income about a
Speaker 2: billion and a half. I only got thirty seconds and
Speaker 2: we've got to go to a network news break. So
Speaker 2: within twenty seconds, what are these small little you know, millions,
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of clubs. Do they represent a huge percentage?
Speaker 4: It's a meaningful it's absolutely it's a meaningful percentage. I
Speaker 4: think it's in the neighborhood of two hundred million.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you this, because I got to go
Speaker 2: to CBS. We'll come back, We'll get to phone calls.
Speaker 2: We have a special report coming in because of the
Speaker 2: hostilities in the Middle East. Tonight we're going to join CBS.
Speaker 1: News It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's
Speaker 1: news radio.
Speaker 2: My guest the Jackson Wagner. He is a senior vice
Speaker 2: president of business and legal Affairs with ASCAP. ASCAP is
Speaker 2: the American Society composers, authors and publishers. It's essentially the
Speaker 2: music industry and with us. Also, you were hearing from
Speaker 2: songwriter Robert Ellis Orrell, who is one of the beneficiaries
Speaker 2: of this. Gentlemen, I'd like to go to phone calls.
Speaker 2: I think that we have described the situation and the circumstances.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that either one of you feel compelled
Speaker 2: to add before we get the phone calls?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd just like to say this because it does
Speaker 3: seem like, Oh.
Speaker 2: I just want to make sure I have the right
Speaker 2: this is this.
Speaker 3: Is Robert, go ahead, right. I had this conversation. One
Speaker 3: of my best friends owned the best bar in Nantucket.
Speaker 3: My band would play there when we signed with RCA.
Speaker 3: We'll be down in woodshed there and he would tell
Speaker 3: me all these guys from ASCAP and BMI that come
Speaker 3: around and bothered me, and I'm like, let me bothering you. Well,
Speaker 3: you know, they want they want me to pay every
Speaker 3: year it's about two dollars a day so that you
Speaker 3: can have the music in the club, which is the
Speaker 3: reason why people are going to the club. So when
Speaker 3: someone's at a karaoke bar singing Taylor Swifts Crazier or
Speaker 3: I'm Only Me when I'm with You, or a Place
Speaker 3: in this World or Invisible, you.
Speaker 2: Don't need to go through Taylor Swift's playlist. Robert, most
Speaker 2: of us know.
Speaker 3: Those songs. I chose those songs specifically because I wrote
Speaker 3: those songs with her. So the reason they're on that
Speaker 3: karaoke stage singing karaoke to that song is because we
Speaker 3: sat down in a room one day and wrote it,
Speaker 3: and that is our source of bigcom No.
Speaker 2: I understand that. Now. Of course, a lot of people
Speaker 2: going to say, well, Taylor Swift doesn't need any more money.
Speaker 2: Maybe Robert does. But Taylor Swift has more money than
Speaker 2: she can count right now. So I think we might
Speaker 2: get some reaction that every card. But but we understand
Speaker 2: we again, sorry, yes, go ahead, Jackson.
Speaker 4: But sorry. I wanted to follow up on that because
Speaker 4: I think it's important for people to understand that. You know, look,
Speaker 4: askaf absolutely has some very well known musicians and songwriters
Speaker 4: and performers, and you know, the people that you've all
Speaker 4: heard of, but there's also a significant class of songwriter
Speaker 4: member at ASKAF that you know. They're not touring, they're
Speaker 4: not selling merchandise, they're really professional songwriters. And those songwriters
Speaker 4: they write music for other people to perform and and
Speaker 4: for those songwriters in particular, the royalties they earn from
Speaker 4: ASCAP and from the public performance of their music are
Speaker 4: absolutely crucial and oftentimes it is their primary, uh if
Speaker 4: not sole, source.
Speaker 3: Of income, my primary, my entire career.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally understand what both of you are saying,
Speaker 2: but I also think that some people want they might say, well,
Speaker 2: maybe Taylor Swift should give a little more money to
Speaker 2: Robert when he writes a song for that's all. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, let's you know, she could aboard it. Let's
Speaker 2: let's go to phone.
Speaker 6: Call under Robert.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, my fair share that's fifty. So I'm good.
Speaker 2: All right, let's go to Roger. Roger, appreciate your patience
Speaker 2: holding on here, but I wanted to make sure my
Speaker 2: audience understood the situation.
Speaker 6: Hey, actually, dan is Roger from Medford. If you remember
Speaker 6: back in the day, and I'm talking to the pandemic.
Speaker 6: I live in wo I live in Melrose now I'm.
Speaker 2: On okay, Roger from Medford.
Speaker 6: I'm now in Melrose.
Speaker 2: Rogers ahead, Roger, Okay.
Speaker 6: Good evening, Dan and Jackson and Robert. I hear both
Speaker 6: of all sides of it. I'm attached to this also,
Speaker 6: Dan on the side in the background. I'm involved with music.
Speaker 6: My friend's got Grammys. Okay. I'm a member of the
Speaker 6: Flavor Year of Queen Latifa's camp. And my buddy gets
Speaker 6: paid every time they play nine hundred number let Me
Speaker 6: Clean your Throat in the NBA Arenas and in the
Speaker 6: NFL and everything. And he is just a beat producer, Okay.
Speaker 6: So when they play a song in Kansaity Sclos a touchdown,
Speaker 6: he gets a little bit of money. Mass Caf now, Jackson,
Speaker 6: I go back to ASCAF. One of my dear friends
Speaker 6: lobbied Congress for you guys ten of fifteen years ago.
Speaker 6: His names Adrian Ross, and he was there and I
Speaker 6: heard about when you guys finally came out with the
Speaker 6: software that helps guys like Robert where he can actually
Speaker 6: see where his music has been played. When you guys
Speaker 6: would reached that software. So Dan just to go back
Speaker 6: in the days, he had a jukebox in a bar.
Speaker 6: They had to pay to have a jukebox there. No
Speaker 6: one complained, they paid the money, the money went to
Speaker 6: the artist and the record being played in a jukebox.
Speaker 6: Fast forward fifty years, the exact same concept. So he's
Speaker 6: playing karaoke. So either a, if he is the karaoke
Speaker 6: bar and providing the karaoke, he has to pay the thick.
Speaker 6: If he's hiring somebody from outside to bring the karaoke in,
Speaker 6: they have to pay the thick. And if you're only
Speaker 6: talk at two dollars a day, I don't feel sorry
Speaker 6: at all with the bar owners.
Speaker 2: Sorry, that's my okay, Well, that's fine, that's fine. I'm
Speaker 2: just telling you that. You know, our friend Robert was
Speaker 2: telling me that there's a bar owner Don in Nantucket
Speaker 2: who felt a little bit put out by all of that.
Speaker 2: So I, you know, I understand this, decides to all
Speaker 2: of this. We were doing this too, to get it
Speaker 2: out there and explain to the people so that they'll
Speaker 2: better understand it.
Speaker 6: And I'll just leave it on this note. Dan, I'll
Speaker 6: let you guys go ahead. You're running a bar, You're
Speaker 6: getting people in the door and you're making money. Be
Speaker 6: happy they're coming in. They're coming in because you're playing
Speaker 6: the music.
Speaker 3: Thank you, that's.
Speaker 2: Fine, thank you very much. Obviously Roger has a strong
Speaker 2: feeling about that. Six one seven, two thirty eight nine
Speaker 2: to nine, ten thirty. Also six one seven, nine three
Speaker 2: ten thirty. Let me go to Michael and Attleborough. Hey Michael,
Speaker 2: how are you tonight?
Speaker 3: Hey?
Speaker 7: Great?
Speaker 5: How you doing?
Speaker 1: Dan?
Speaker 2: And you are with Jackson Wagner of as Gap and
Speaker 2: songwriter Robert Ellis orl.
Speaker 5: Right, I got a different angle as a disc jockey
Speaker 5: and the columns we never paid. And you know, I'm
Speaker 5: not admitting you know, fault, but you're playing in a
Speaker 5: club one night and one the other night. There was
Speaker 5: a night where somebody was mad at the owner of
Speaker 5: the club by work, and he contacted ASCAP and I
Speaker 5: said that I like Yellow Submarine, which I'm wasbably going
Speaker 5: to play in a million years. But I agree with this.
Speaker 5: And by the way, to the ASCAP people that I
Speaker 5: forgot the names, I apologized, or you could have never
Speaker 5: walked in a Providence bot thirty years ago and asked
Speaker 5: but anyway.
Speaker 2: Okay, well that's a parenthetical comment. We'll leave it thirty
Speaker 2: years ago, the problems of guys walking in the bar
Speaker 2: who were from the organization, and we're asking them whether
Speaker 2: or not they needed plate glass window insurance.
Speaker 7: Absolutely.
Speaker 5: But the other thing is this is a little bit.
Speaker 2: More of a legitimate request. Let me make that very
Speaker 2: analogizing what as gap is doing. Hold on, let me
Speaker 2: just finish my sentence. If you don't mind, I'm not
Speaker 2: analogizing what as gap is doing to what the industry
Speaker 2: that you alluded to was doing many many years ago.
Speaker 2: This is understand that. Go ahead, what's your what's your question?
Speaker 5: The thing that gets me is the sampling of songs
Speaker 5: that people are doing and getting away with that rips
Speaker 5: me ten time sideways, especially since the quotes is sat
Speaker 5: and agree with the and it's letting some of that
Speaker 5: go through. But I agree that we should be paying.
Speaker 5: There's no there's no question. Even though I got away
Speaker 5: with this, there's no question that the artists should be paid.
Speaker 5: And I had one last question for Askap, what about.
Speaker 3: When the people in the.
Speaker 5: In the restaurants play a public radio station with the
Speaker 5: songs and the commercials. I think you frown upon that, right, So.
Speaker 4: This is Jackson. So that's a little bit of a
Speaker 4: nuanced issue. There are exemptions in the law or smaller
Speaker 4: venues if they're just simply playing the radio. Right, it's
Speaker 4: really based on you know, certain small venues that have
Speaker 4: a limited number of speakers and TVs. It's it's an
Speaker 4: exemption that doesn't apply to most establishments and certainly not
Speaker 4: to any of the establishments that you know, we that
Speaker 4: we are you know, attempting to license and then we're
Speaker 4: sued last week.
Speaker 5: Right, Okay, thanks, thank.
Speaker 2: You, Michael, thank you very much. Thanks, thanks you for
Speaker 2: the call. All right, let me ask real quickly, Jackson.
Speaker 2: We got to take quick break and then we get
Speaker 2: some more calls coming in. The question that I have
Speaker 2: is and be straight with me on this one. You've
Speaker 2: been very straight so far. I assume that it's it's
Speaker 2: probably not worth as CAPS resources to file lawsuits against
Speaker 2: a thousand or ten thousand small bars that are doing
Speaker 2: the same thing that this group in Rhode Island you
Speaker 2: believe they're doing. Fish Company. So in a sense, you're
Speaker 2: doing this to send a message that you guys are
Speaker 2: going to be aggressive irrespective of the size of the establishment. Uh,
Speaker 2: and this hopefully will induce people who own small bars
Speaker 2: across the country and are playing music, particularly in karaoke form,
Speaker 2: to to basically come into the bar and pay that
Speaker 2: small amount of money every year so that you don't
Speaker 2: end up in a lawsuit. Pretty pretty obvious to me
Speaker 2: as a lawyer. Uh, and you're a lawyer as well.
Speaker 2: I think that's what the purpose is. You've you've identified
Speaker 2: a few of the most calciledorn bars and you're going
Speaker 2: after them, and hopefully other people will be aware of it,
Speaker 2: and maybe they will decide that discretion is the better
Speaker 2: part of our correct.
Speaker 4: So you know, it's it's certainly educational, right, It's it's
Speaker 4: educational for the industry. But look, we also take very seriously,
Speaker 4: you know, not not just did the our responsibility to
Speaker 4: generate royalties for members, but also to protect their valuable
Speaker 4: copyrights and and that's part of you know, it's another
Speaker 4: function that's served by these losses.
Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is, and I just you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to put you on the spot here,
Speaker 2: I'm just saying it's it's more efficient to Again, I
Speaker 2: guess there's a spate of about nine of these that
Speaker 2: have been filed across the country is that correct?
Speaker 4: I think last week there were eleven and.
Speaker 1: You know how many?
Speaker 2: How many? How big is the class of offenders? Do
Speaker 2: you think here? How many? It was obviously ABC, NBC, CBS,
Speaker 2: the big boys, they're they're on board. So how many
Speaker 2: of vinced locations such as Fish Company in Providence, Rhode
Speaker 2: Island and the place in woolbron What do you estimate?
Speaker 2: Are there half a million?
Speaker 4: I think well, I mean, you know the number of
Speaker 4: bars and vans across the country. I actually don't. It'd
Speaker 4: be very difficult to come up with the number. But
Speaker 4: but I think the reality is the majority of these
Speaker 4: bar owners and another nightclubs and folkspering music in that
Speaker 4: in that sense, yeah, because there's a value right to
Speaker 4: the music and that's what brings the customer.
Speaker 2: I get it. But there must be sufficient liars, There
Speaker 2: must be a sufficient number of outliers to make it
Speaker 2: worth it. You you know, if if if this, if
Speaker 2: this club in this bar in Providence is not paying
Speaker 2: it's two dollars a day, that's what you know, seven
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty dollars a year, and they and they'd
Speaker 2: be right with you, guys.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I got the question,
Speaker 4: but absolutely our preferences to handle these issues through.
Speaker 2: Life, I said, no. My question, My question is real simple.
Speaker 2: These are these are cases that you hope that by
Speaker 2: the publicity that you're getting that it will induce others
Speaker 2: to say it's not worth the aggravation. Uh, and that
Speaker 2: you know it's you know, you can't sue every one
Speaker 2: of these restaurants around the country. That would cost that
Speaker 2: would run, you'd run out of money, you'd run out
Speaker 2: of staff, I mean, and you can't really do a
Speaker 2: class action lawsuit here. So this is an effective way
Speaker 2: to get the message out to these smaller club owners
Speaker 2: who maybe are not with the program, to get with
Speaker 2: the program. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're certainly hopeful that you know this, that you know,
Speaker 4: people will do the right thing and come to get
Speaker 4: a license.
Speaker 2: I think we're saying the right I think we're saying
Speaker 2: the same thing. We'll be right back and finish up
Speaker 2: our interview with my guest Jackson Wagner and ask have
Speaker 2: senior vice president of business and Legal Affairs and Robert
Speaker 2: Ellis orl who's a songwriter. Didn't realize that he'd written
Speaker 2: some songs for Taylor Swift. We'll be back on Nightside.
Speaker 2: We got Mark coming up and Paul be right back
Speaker 2: on Nightside.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 1: night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: We're talking about musical ties with Jackson Wegner, the ASCAP
Speaker 2: Senior vice president of Business and Legal Affairs, and Robert
Speaker 2: Ellis ORL, a songwriter. I had two callers and I
Speaker 2: got about four minutes, so I'm going to give each
Speaker 2: two minutes. Let's go to Mark and Movement first. Mark
Speaker 2: got to be a quick question or quick comment.
Speaker 3: Go right ahead, Mark, Yeah, Hi this.
Speaker 7: I know I've met Ralph a few times. I just
Speaker 7: wanted to say that, as a songwriter myself, that not
Speaker 7: paying for the these this usage is like stealing a
Speaker 7: couple of bottles from your alcohol distributor.
Speaker 2: All right, fine, yeah, so you do you have a question?
Speaker 2: You have a question? Would that be the comment?
Speaker 7: No, the comment is quite simple. You know you're not
Speaker 7: going to steal a case of beer from your distributor
Speaker 7: every you know, every delivery. It's the same difference. It's
Speaker 7: it's theft of services. I would put it. You know,
Speaker 7: these people performed the service they they they wrote the songs,
Speaker 7: and you know that, you know that's how I equate it.
Speaker 2: So well, you're a song with on that I would
Speaker 2: assume that that's exactly how you view it. And I
Speaker 2: appreciate you calling in and you were quick and to
Speaker 2: the point, which was very appreciative. And I'm going to
Speaker 2: be able to get Paul from Plymouth in as well. Mark,
Speaker 2: Thanks very much. What have you written recently? Anything we
Speaker 2: should be listening to on the radio.
Speaker 7: Hopefully now? Unfortunately a song called the Chokes on Me
Speaker 7: is and Tempest in a Teapotter on my SoundCloud, but
Speaker 7: nothing that has made it be on college radio.
Speaker 2: All right, Well that's okay, you're doing it and you'll
Speaker 2: have that breakthrough. I'm sure. I appreciate you call, Mark,
Speaker 2: and thank you for listening tonight's side.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Billy, You're welcome.
Speaker 2: We go to Paul and Plymouth. Paul got about two
Speaker 2: minutes for you. You go right ahead. Question or comment for
Speaker 2: Jackson Wagner or Robert ls or good.
Speaker 8: Evening, gentlemen.
Speaker 3: I just have a just have a comment. I wanted
Speaker 3: to get up this off my chest.
Speaker 8: A great music was in the nineteen thirties and the
Speaker 8: nineteenth forties a big band era, and then it just
Speaker 8: started getting cheaper and smaller and cheaper and smaller. And
Speaker 8: it's all related to this, to what we have today,
Speaker 8: where you know, you've got one person up there singing
Speaker 8: with a guitar. And I don't even go out to
Speaker 8: these places anymore because it's so damn boring. You know,
Speaker 8: I'd much rather go watch a big band like Glenn
Speaker 8: Miller or something. Anyways, I just want to.
Speaker 2: Get if we get if we could just get Glenn
Speaker 2: Miller back, I think the world would be would be
Speaker 2: a better place, Paul. If you know, Yogi Berra said,
Speaker 2: no wonder nobody comes here. It's too crowded. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of these places that are doing very well, Paul
Speaker 2: with I'm doing my radio show when you're not going.
Speaker 2: So get those big bands back, and if we get
Speaker 2: Louis Armstrong will be in better shape, that's for sure.
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, hopefully.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Paul. I appreciate it that great time. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 2: no comment necessary, gentleman. I don't think he was insulting
Speaker 2: your work or anything.
Speaker 3: But no, no, I like that.
Speaker 2: Thank you both for joining us. Tonight. I wish that
Speaker 2: the club owner had participated as well, but that was
Speaker 2: his choice. I assumed that he did get our invitation,
Speaker 2: and I'd appreciate it, Jackson. If you keep us in
Speaker 2: you know, keep us in the loop here, and if
Speaker 2: if the filing of the lawsuit accomplishes the purpose and
Speaker 2: the club in Providence decides to get right with you guys,
Speaker 2: let us know it. I'd love to follow up on
Speaker 2: these stories that we do so. I think you guys
Speaker 2: represented yourself very well. It's an interesting story. I learned
Speaker 2: a lot about ask Captainnight and I want to thank
Speaker 2: you both for being here. Okay, next time, see Taylor Swift, Robert,
Speaker 2: do me a favorite, tell her that my is a
Speaker 2: big fan of hers. And I think she's going to
Speaker 2: be a success in the music industry. Okay, I think.
Speaker 3: She's Okay, all right, I'm good to talk to you.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 4: Dan certainly appreciate the time. Dan, thank you so much,
Speaker 4: both of.
Speaker 2: You, Jackson Wagner and Robert Ellis orl. Thanks. We get
Speaker 2: back on to talk with a master a bibliophile, Ken
Speaker 2: Gloss of Brattle Street Bookshop, Brattle Bookshop. I should say
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about a couple of big book
Speaker 2: events coming up in Boston, and then at eleven o'clock
Speaker 2: our twenty twenty four final Friday of the month, our
Speaker 2: eighth final Friday of the month presidential poll. You can
Speaker 2: tell us who you're going to vote for, or who
Speaker 2: you would vote for if it was The vote was today.
Speaker 2: Back on night Side after this