WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.240 --> 00:00:07.639 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Constance Video. 2 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:09.279 Or one of those nights here on w b Z. 3 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:11.080 Kind of a little bit of craziness there in the 4 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:13.640 last half hour. Sorry about that. We had a guest 5 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:16.559 who was supposed to call in at a certain time 6 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.359 on the issue of booster seats for kids and cars, 7 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:23.000 which would have been good information, but that person dropped 8 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:28.640 the ball, and my producers and I tried to make 9 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:34.079 make do with as best we could. It's unfortunate that 10 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:37.000 people who you line up from major companies by the 11 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:41.399 way to help them out and talk about information that 12 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:48.759 is a value to my listeners aren't focused enough to 13 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:51.520 be available or to call in when they're supposed to 14 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:53.880 call in, and then you can't find them. So I 15 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:56.719 will apologize on behalf of that guest. I guarantee you 16 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:58.640 that guest will never be invited to be on Night 17 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:01.520 Side again. It's the only way we can respond to that. 18 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:04.599 Now we have we have two guests. As I mentioned 19 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:07.760 in the last hour, we're going to learn about a 20 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:12.799 lot about as cap fees, UH and UH. With this 21 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:16.040 lawsuit that has been filed against I guess not only 22 00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.200 a club in Providence, Rhode Island, but a few others. 23 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:20.359 So we have we have two guests lined up. We 24 00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:23.959 invited the owner of the club in question in Providence, 25 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:26.840 Rhode Island. Again, I'm referring to a pieces in the 26 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.280 Boston Globe on I believe it was on Tuesday out 27 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:35.280 of Providence, Rhode Island. The bar or whatever you want 28 00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:39.200 to call it, Fish Company on Bridge Street in Providence, 29 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:43.359 Rhode Islands facing a copyright infringement lawsuit because three songs 30 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:48.879 were performed during karaoke there in May with us are 31 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:54.239 two guests. One is Jackson Wagoner. Jackson, I hope pronouncing 32 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:56.879 your name correctly. He is the as CAP Senior Vice 33 00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:59.319 President of Business and Legal Affairs. I appreciate you being 34 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:03.159 available on a Friday night. And a songwriter. I believe 35 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:07.000 he's local. Robert ellis oral Robert. Welcome. Are you from 36 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:08.800 the great of Boston and the New England area. 37 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:13.000 I grew up here and after spending about a thirty 38 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:14.680 years stint in Nashville, I'm back. 39 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:20.120 Okay, Well, welcome back, welcome back to platedly. Okay, So 40 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:25.159 let's start off with the attorney Jackson Wagner, and I 41 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:28.560 think I've explained to the audience. You probably didn't listen, 42 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:31.120 but in the ten minutes before the nine o'clock news 43 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:35.759 we talked about, you know, ASCAP functions under a nineteen 44 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:42.520 seventy six copyright law. Why don't you, Jackson, describe to 45 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:45.840 us from the ASCAP point of view, why this law 46 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:54.039 is necessary to protect the interest of writers and composers 47 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:56.800 and musicians. 48 00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:59.680 Great, sure, Ann, thanks for having me on. I appreciate 49 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:03.240 the time. So to start with, I think it's important 50 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.280 to understand what as CAP is and what we do. 51 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:11.759 So as CAP is actually a membership membership association. We 52 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:16.719 represent the rights of more than one million music creators. 53 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:23.400 Our members are songwriters, composers, lyricists, and music publishers. They 54 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.360 publish music across and write music across every conceivable genre 55 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:32.479 of music and so on. Behalf of those members as 56 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.080 CAP goes out and we license the right to publicly 57 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:37.719 perform their music, and we license that right to all 58 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.000 sorts of businesses that use music, you know, sort of 59 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:46.759 for more traditional music use companies like commercial radio, local 60 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:51.240 television you know, cable and broadcast TV, to the sort 61 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:54.680 of the newer generation of music companies, you know, music 62 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:58.919 streaming services like Spotify, Apple and the like and audio 63 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:03.919 visual companies like Hulu and Netflix, and of course as 64 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:10.439 well to live music venues, and so we license the 65 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:13.000 rights to those companies on behalf of our members. So 66 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.519 in essence, as CAAP focuses on the business side so 67 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.879 that our members who are songwriters can focus on the 68 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:23.000 creative side, continue to focus on their craft and write 69 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:26.319 the music that we all know and love. ASCAP's also 70 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:29.759 unique because we operate on a not for profit basis, 71 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.519 and what that actually means is that we're really good 72 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:35.759 and really efficient at getting money into the hands of 73 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:39.399 our members. In fact, about ninety cents of every dollar 74 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.480 that we collect is distributed to our members as royalties. 75 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:46.480 So Sycha mentioned that how much does ASCALP collect them? 76 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.800 Just curry us overall? It must be a multi million 77 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:53.759 dollar effort. What do you think of all the venues 78 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:56.560 that utilize music? Is it one hundred million dollars a year? 79 00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:59.360 Ye oh, it's more than that, Yes, it's it's close 80 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:02.160 to a billion in half. I think it's above that. 81 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.519 It's so it's a lot, it's yeah. 82 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.160 Okay, you rightfully point out there there are you know, 83 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.480 many music users across the country, and really music use 84 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:14.720 is ubiquitous, right, you see it everywhere nowadays. 85 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:19.240 Sure, Uh, you know, and when you when you license folks. 86 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:22.240 And again you said that you're a nonprofit, and I 87 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:26.560 understand that you're you're a membership association which is intended 88 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:32.040 to benefit its members. I understand that totally. I'm assuming that, 89 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:38.439 for example, you must have a different level of cost. 90 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:43.920 I assume you're not charging CBS or or NBC or 91 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:48.800 ABC major television networks the same that you would be 92 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:52.560 charging this club in profitence Rhode Island. I mean, I 93 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:54.759 don't need to know how much they're they're going to 94 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:57.920 be charged, but I assume that it's it's dependent upon 95 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:02.680 how reliant, how reliant and an individual or an institution 96 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:07.079 is on music, that there's a correlation between that reliance 97 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:09.639 and the amount that they have to pay. 98 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.720 That's absolutely correct. And the reality is, you know, we 99 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:16.720 want businesses, you know, all sorts of different businesses to 100 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.480 use our members music, sure, and we want them to 101 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:21.519 be successful when they do that. We just want to 102 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:25.439 ensure that fair compensation is then paid to the music creators. 103 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:28.480 And one of the ways we ensure that is by having, 104 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:31.439 like you said, licenses that really are suited to the 105 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:34.480 needs of the business, to their size, to their use 106 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:38.079 of music, and to ensure that licenses as are affordable. 107 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:43.839 So so again without I'm not trying to, you know, 108 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:50.040 pick information that that I have no right to. So somehow, 109 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:54.759 some way, you folks almost like the I r S. 110 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.600 Every year, the i r S will indict people in 111 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:02.759 February and March from different backgrounds to let people know 112 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:05.079 that hey, it's time to do your taxes and do 113 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:08.879 them honestly. So as I understand this global article that 114 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:11.920 you guys participated in, and you've been quoted in Jackson, 115 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:17.839 you're suing about nine business establishments around the country which 116 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.639 might be characterized as smaller venues. You recently filed a 117 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:27.560 lawsuit against some sort of a bar in Wooburn, Massachusetts, 118 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:29.639 which is close to where we are, and now you 119 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:33.759 have one in Providence, Rhode Island. But these are people who, obviously, 120 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:37.079 I assume, I'm very recalcitrate that you went to them 121 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:39.720 in a reasonable fashion, said hey would like you to 122 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:42.480 would like to license you so you can play music, 123 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:45.720 And it appears to me that they have are not 124 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:51.319 particularly interested in participating. And now you filed federal lawsuits 125 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:57.480 against these establishments across the country. Is that accurate, right, Dan? 126 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:03.959 So you are correct, essentially, you know, the reality is 127 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:06.720 that we view litigation as a last resort and so 128 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:09.600 you're absolutely right that these you know, establishments that were 129 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.600 sued last week are retelcitrant. And really what I mean 130 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:18.399 by that is, you know, we we really make repeated 131 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.639 efforts to license venues, especially in this space, right before 132 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.000 we resort to a federal lawsuit, and and you know, 133 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:29.920 we reach out in various ways over the course of 134 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:32.600 usually a year or more, and usually you know, there 135 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:36.240 are dozens of contacts or attempts to contact the establishment owners. 136 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:40.320 And through those contacts, we emphasize to the you know, 137 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:42.840 part of its educational Dan, right, we we want to 138 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:46.080 explain who we are, we explain what we do. We 139 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:51.879 explain to the licensees that the the royalties at ASCAP 140 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.759 generates on behalf of its members are are incredibly important 141 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.200 to the music creators, right. And that's because for for 142 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:04.639 many songwriters, you know, the royalties that they earn from 143 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:06.919 ASKAP are actually their primary source of income. 144 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:07.639 Right. 145 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:09.720 It's it's how they put food on the table, it's 146 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:11.120 how they pay rent. Right. 147 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:14.120 If it's okay, I just need to take a quick 148 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.720 break here. When we get back, I want to talk 149 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.799 about that a little bit, because I assume that a 150 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:26.720 lot of the singers or or musicians or performers whatever 151 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:30.200 you want to call, whose songs are being utilized, whether 152 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:35.799 it's you know, John Denver you know song or a 153 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.559 Garth Brooks song here, that those are the ones that 154 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.840 are most popular. And I'll be interested as to whether 155 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:46.960 you I assume you can keep track of what every 156 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:51.840 little venue does, and I'm just interested in how the 157 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:54.679 benefit is apportioned. And then we'll take some phone calls 158 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:57.840 if it's okay. And I also want to hear from 159 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:03.480 our other guest, who is who's a songwriter, Robert Ellis 160 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.039 orrel about his reliance on this. You've explained that very 161 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:10.039 well so far, Jackson, and I so appreciate you coming 162 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:12.879 on tonight because I would be flying blind without both 163 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:15.000 of you. I wish that the owner of the club 164 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:17.519 had been willing to come on, but he was invited, 165 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:20.759 and we didn't speak with him personally, but he certainly 166 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:25.000 has has had an invitation. He chose not to participate. 167 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:27.480 We'll take a quick break and we're going to be back, 168 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:29.440 and we're going to learn a lot about when you 169 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:30.879 go to a bar, you go to a restaurant. In 170 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:33.919 this music playing in the background, there's a cost associated 171 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:36.519 with that, and we'll explain. We'll continue to explain why 172 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:38.480 my name's Dan Ray and this is night Side. If 173 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.759 you'd like to join the conversation, If you're a musician 174 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.960 or someone out there who benefits from this, feel free 175 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:45.960 to call in six one seven, two, five, four to 176 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:49.279 ten thirty. If you're a bar owner, you feel it's onerous, 177 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.240 you feel you're free to call in, Or if you're 178 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.399 just a listener and want to offer your opinion, you 179 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:56.759 are always free to call in six one, seven, two, 180 00:10:56.840 --> 00:10:59.480 five four to ten thirty and six one seven, nine 181 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:03.080 three one ten thirty Back on nights Side. Fascinating subject 182 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:08.440 topic as far as I'm concerned, Legal implications and allotted 183 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:11.480 stake cumulatively. Will be back right after this. 184 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:16.120 Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World 185 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:19.360 Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio. 186 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:22.559 All right, we're talking with Jackson Wagner. He is the 187 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:24.960 senior vice president of business in Legal Affairs for an 188 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:28.720 organization called ASCAP, which is the American Society of Composers, 189 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:33.480 authors and publishers. That is a group that basically ensures 190 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:38.919 that when music is played at a commercial location in America, 191 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:42.360 that there is a license under a nineteen seventy six 192 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.679 copyright law that is the law of the land. So 193 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:52.240 it's almost fifty years old, and apparently some of the 194 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.480 smaller venues around the country are not as cooperative. I mean, 195 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.840 I look at this as a big pyramid that at 196 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.159 the top of the pyramid at the major networks and 197 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:05.320 the Spotify and the things that really rely upon music obviously, 198 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:10.360 and then down the bottom you have maybe some smaller locations, bars, etc. 199 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:14.720 Who probably think that they can avoid it. From the 200 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:17.240 point of view of the performers, how important is this 201 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:22.720 to you, Robert Ellis, or you're a songwriter. I don't 202 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:25.000 know how many big hits you've had. You may have 203 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:28.480 had twenty big hits, but whether or not your songs 204 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.919 are being played at karaoke bars, how important is that 205 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:38.879 the principle is upheld and people like yourself have access 206 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:42.559 to the royalties that come from the work you've done. 207 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:48.320 Well, sure you know everything everything in our in my 208 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.519 family's life, our house are closed, our food, everything for 209 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:55.759 the last thirty five years has been paid for by royalties. 210 00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:59.279 And part of that is because I've been lucky enough 211 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.679 to have a lot of songs that do end up 212 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.600 in the public space, whether on the radio or in 213 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:10.759 concerts or or as something as simple as a karaoke night. 214 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:17.159 Every dollar that is that is that brought in from 215 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.320 some the playing of those songs that make people happy 216 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:25.480 and they enjoy listening to. You know, Uh, there's no 217 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:27.360 way that there's no way for us to know who's 218 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:32.120 playing what where, But as Gap is an organization that 219 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:35.840 I belonged to Newsons nineteen eighty one, the same year 220 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:39.559 I sign with r c A Records, and uh knew that, 221 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:41.639 you know, chan's a pretty good that I was gonna 222 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:43.799 start having some songs in the radio as a performer, 223 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:48.320 but then went on to move to Nashville and write 224 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:53.679 songs for a lot of people that people listen to. 225 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:59.879 And I've had about three hundred and fifty songs recorded, so, 226 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.519 you know, and sort of non genre specific, everyone from 227 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:10.360 uh Reva McIntyre to Lindsey Lowhand, movies like you know, Hannah, Montana, 228 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:11.720 Danity whatever. 229 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.200 Okay, so let me let me ask you this. Robert 230 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:20.320 if I could. Okay, obviously there's some songs that are universal. 231 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.320 I mean, you know, Sweet Caroline. I'm sure he has 232 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.360 played at every karaoke bar in America at some point 233 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:30.840 y m c A. I'm sure those are the songs 234 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:35.480 that I assume you find it karaoke bars. Do you 235 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:40.159 get paid royalties? I mean, does ASCAP actually track how 236 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:42.720 where your song is played? Do you get a report 237 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:47.200 every month? And does the estate of John Denver get 238 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:51.039 a report as to how often you know Rocky Mountain 239 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.080 High has been played? Or does everyone It's. 240 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.279 Not that specific. I mean it's like, obviously I'm not 241 00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.639 gonna get a report about who played what in what 242 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:03.120 are but and and as to the way the formula 243 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.399 works for for ASCAP to distribute, it is a very 244 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.759 very complicated formula. But what they but when the when 245 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:18.240 the money comes from radio stations, television stations, theaters, clubs, stadiums, 246 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:21.720 uh and it's always you know, it's it's it's it's 247 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:25.240 worked out as a percentage of you know, of what 248 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:29.240 of what the money coming into those businesses. 249 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.039 Are in what I'm trying to what I'm trying, I'm 250 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:34.360 trying to simplify it Robert from my audience, And if 251 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:38.840 I'm asking an oversimplified question, I'm assuming that just as 252 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:42.000 there's a pyramid of the at the top of the 253 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:46.000 pyramid of the networks and the big music providers, and 254 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.759 towards the bottom of the pyramid is the karaoke songs. 255 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:53.960 If someone wrote one song that actually was produced somewhere 256 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:58.679 and released, does that person get Does everybody get the 257 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.600 same amount of money as you know? Or does Stevie 258 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.480 wonder and people who have had music that has been 259 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.039 on forever do they get more? How does it just? 260 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:09.000 How does it work? In other words, you've got a 261 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:13.000 million members, does everybody get an equivalent cut? Or do 262 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:15.440 they do you get put in the category and say, well, 263 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.039 these these folks, you know, major artists are going to 264 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.399 get they'll they'll they'll cut, they'll cut up twenty percent. 265 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:23.399 How does it work? 266 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.679 No, No, it's really based on the percentage your your 267 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.200 how much your songs are getting played versus anyone else. 268 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:35.559 So if if there's a if there's a television state, 269 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:41.639 say CBS in one year has fifteen, it's h This 270 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:45.159 is really hard to explain because it's based on a 271 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:49.440 mathematical formula where It has nothing to do with popularity, 272 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:51.519 It has nothing to do with if you've been in 273 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:53.840 the business for a long time, you get more money. 274 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.679 So I assume it has to do with usage. I'm 275 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:01.200 going to save you some time here. It probably has 276 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:02.360 to do with usage. 277 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:03.679 Actual usage. 278 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:07.039 Yes, actual usage. So you might have written a theme 279 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.480 song that nobody would know that you wrote it, but 280 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:13.799 it's it's the theme song for I don't know, you know, 281 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:17.119 pick the most popular TV show these days, for Dancing 282 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.759 with the Stars or whatever the most So, so it's 283 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:25.680 based upon usage. And let me come back to Jackson. Jackson, 284 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:29.960 I assume that you folks have some idea about what 285 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.319 music is being played, and so you try to do 286 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:35.079 it as fairly as equitably as you can. 287 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.160 And that's absolutely right. And to be clear, we actually 288 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.119 have a core principle that we try to abide by 289 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.119 in making distributions to our member to our members, we 290 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.599 call it follow the dollar. And what follow the dollar 291 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.039 means is that the money that comes in from any 292 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.200 licensee or a particular class of licensees gets distributed to 293 00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:00.480 the musicians, to the songwriters and the music creator whose 294 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.519 music is played on that medium. So a perfect example 295 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.480 is commercial radio. Right, money comes in from commercial radio 296 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:13.480 stations across the country, and as cap UH spends uh, 297 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:19.559 you know, significant time and resources in tracking performances. I'm 298 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:23.599 literally it's trillions with a t trillions of performances per 299 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:27.759 year that we track across various media. So in commercial radio, 300 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.799 for instance, you know, we get detailed data from radio 301 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.640 stations about what's being played. We you know, we we 302 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.240 we tie that back to the money that comes in 303 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.519 from radio, and then we distributed to the members whose 304 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:41.440 music is being performed, you know, in accordance with the 305 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.839 number of performances. So the more you know, uh, if 306 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:47.200 your music is played, more you're getting paid, you know more. 307 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:49.960 I got it, Okay, So let me ask you. Let 308 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:53.960 me ask you this question. Then I'm assuming that the 309 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:58.200 the big corporations, you know, whether it's again, you know, CBS, ABC, NBC, 310 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.440 or I work at an iHeart radio station. We don't 311 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.680 play music, but we're news, news and talk radio station. 312 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:07.880 But I'm sure you have a deal with with iHeart 313 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:10.480 that covers all the radio stations you're not negotiating a 314 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:13.279 deal with. We have eight hundred iHeart radio stations around 315 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:17.400 the country. So I'm assuming that you use some efficiencies 316 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:20.960 when you're dealing with a radio network. 317 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.160 Correct, Oh, absolutely, I mean that's okay. One of the 318 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:26.279 value propositions you know of. 319 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.880 A caps invented so and it's a negotiation and you 320 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.680 come to an agreement and you sign a contract for 321 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.519 a year or three years whatever. It is. Rough percentage 322 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:40.480 when you talk about karaoke restaurants like this place in Providence, 323 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.720 Rhode Island, or the place that you suit in Wouburn, 324 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.759 give me a rough idea about what percentage of the 325 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.160 overall income you say you have overall income about a 326 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.279 billion and a half. I only got thirty seconds and 327 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:54.200 we've got to go to a network news break. So 328 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:59.160 within twenty seconds, what are these small little you know, millions, 329 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:03.640 hundreds of thousands of clubs. Do they represent a huge percentage? 330 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.519 It's a meaningful it's absolutely it's a meaningful percentage. I 331 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:09.319 think it's in the neighborhood of two hundred million. 332 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:12.279 Let me tell you this, because I got to go 333 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:14.519 to CBS. We'll come back, We'll get to phone calls. 334 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.160 We have a special report coming in because of the 335 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:21.720 hostilities in the Middle East. Tonight we're going to join CBS. 336 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:27.559 News It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w Boston's 337 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:28.240 news radio. 338 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.720 My guest the Jackson Wagner. He is a senior vice 339 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:38.200 president of business and legal Affairs with ASCAP. ASCAP is 340 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:41.839 the American Society composers, authors and publishers. It's essentially the 341 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:46.839 music industry and with us. Also, you were hearing from 342 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:51.400 songwriter Robert Ellis Orrell, who is one of the beneficiaries 343 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:54.440 of this. Gentlemen, I'd like to go to phone calls. 344 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.680 I think that we have described the situation and the circumstances. 345 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.160 Is there anything that either one of you feel compelled 346 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:03.359 to add before we get the phone calls? 347 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:03.839 Uh? 348 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.200 Yeah, I'd just like to say this because it does 349 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:08.839 seem like, Oh. 350 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:11.279 I just want to make sure I have the right 351 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:13.440 this is this. 352 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:17.200 Is Robert, go ahead, right. I had this conversation. One 353 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:23.200 of my best friends owned the best bar in Nantucket. 354 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:25.640 My band would play there when we signed with RCA. 355 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.920 We'll be down in woodshed there and he would tell 356 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.319 me all these guys from ASCAP and BMI that come 357 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:35.279 around and bothered me, and I'm like, let me bothering you. Well, 358 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:38.039 you know, they want they want me to pay every 359 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:42.799 year it's about two dollars a day so that you 360 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:44.720 can have the music in the club, which is the 361 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:48.279 reason why people are going to the club. So when 362 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:52.440 someone's at a karaoke bar singing Taylor Swifts Crazier or 363 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:54.759 I'm Only Me when I'm with You, or a Place 364 00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:57.680 in this World or Invisible, you. 365 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:00.599 Don't need to go through Taylor Swift's playlist. Robert, most 366 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:01.119 of us know. 367 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.759 Those songs. I chose those songs specifically because I wrote 368 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:10.839 those songs with her. So the reason they're on that 369 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.160 karaoke stage singing karaoke to that song is because we 370 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:17.319 sat down in a room one day and wrote it, 371 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:20.240 and that is our source of bigcom No. 372 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.480 I understand that. Now. Of course, a lot of people 373 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:24.759 going to say, well, Taylor Swift doesn't need any more money. 374 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:27.720 Maybe Robert does. But Taylor Swift has more money than 375 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.160 she can count right now. So I think we might 376 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:34.400 get some reaction that every card. But but we understand 377 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:39.039 we again, sorry, yes, go ahead, Jackson. 378 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:41.640 But sorry. I wanted to follow up on that because 379 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.920 I think it's important for people to understand that. You know, look, 380 00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:51.079 askaf absolutely has some very well known musicians and songwriters 381 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:53.759 and performers, and you know, the people that you've all 382 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:57.680 heard of, but there's also a significant class of songwriter 383 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:01.759 member at ASKAF that you know. They're not touring, they're 384 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:06.119 not selling merchandise, they're really professional songwriters. And those songwriters 385 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:08.759 they write music for other people to perform and and 386 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.319 for those songwriters in particular, the royalties they earn from 387 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:14.920 ASCAP and from the public performance of their music are 388 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:21.160 absolutely crucial and oftentimes it is their primary, uh if 389 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:22.119 not sole, source. 390 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:25.440 Of income, my primary, my entire career. 391 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.039 Yeah, I totally understand what both of you are saying, 392 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:31.960 but I also think that some people want they might say, well, 393 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:34.160 maybe Taylor Swift should give a little more money to 394 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.000 Robert when he writes a song for that's all. I mean, 395 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:40.319 you know, let's you know, she could aboard it. Let's 396 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:41.440 let's go to phone. 397 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:42.079 Call under Robert. 398 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:49.000 Yeah, yeah, my fair share that's fifty. So I'm good. 399 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:55.519 All right, let's go to Roger. Roger, appreciate your patience 400 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:57.880 holding on here, but I wanted to make sure my 401 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.279