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Speaker 1: The whole FA the more the worms second sec.

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Speaker 2: Second second seven second second second.

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Speaker 3: We've learned so much.

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Speaker 4: If you've been on the Jays Analysis, right, A lot

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of you guys are new I understand that's cool, glad

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to have you here. But some of you have been

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with me for the long haul. In fact, there are

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some who've been with Jays Analysis for ten years, reading

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it back in the day, and we've come a long way.

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We've come a long way, all right, Welcome, thank you,

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glad to see you all here. We got a room

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of almost two hundred nerds. I'm sure the nerds will

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pile in then we can get up to about three hundred.

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Speaker 3: Tonight we'll see it's your boy Jay in the house.

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You boys.

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Speaker 2: It subs s s s s s s supt steps

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but supposss ss ss.

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Speaker 3: All right, welcome, you're listening to Jay's analysis. We have

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with us a team. We've got our old friend Snack.

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How you doing, Snack.

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Speaker 5: Doing great?

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Speaker 3: Thank you for coming back.

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Speaker 4: We're glad to have one of our premier researchers here

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are French Ortho Bo Snack, and tonight we're going to

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be talking.

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Speaker 3: About the.

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Speaker 4: Curious topics of the papal forgeries, the frauds, the deceptions,

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the mistranslations, the innumerable instances of weird and strange things,

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topics that we haven't exactly touched on in the past

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when we did our Jesuit stream, which I think was

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really really good. If you haven't heard the Jesuit stream

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that I did with Snack, definitely go back and listen

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to that one. I'll try to link that one below.

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When this show is done, I want to thank the

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new members who joined Welcome. But tonight we're going to

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get into a topic that still comes up. Amazingly. You

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would think that by now, oh we've moved on. Nobody's

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doing forgeries anymore.

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Speaker 3: We all know what the fort.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 4: No, these things are consistently still cited, and particularly these

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forgeries and frauds are cited amongst trads. If you're in

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the trad world, if you're in the trad apologetics world,

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especially if you're you know, using the Catechism of Trent.

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For example, when I was a trad, we use the

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Catechism Trent all the time.

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Speaker 3: I read it. When I was about two thousand and three,

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I think I got my copy.

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Speaker 4: Of the Council of Trent or the Catechism of Trent

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from the SSPX that I attended, and I plowed through it,

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and I thought I was solid and bazed a little.

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Did I know I wasn't paying attention to the footnotes

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because it actually still sites forgery. So we're gonna be

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looking at some of that stuff. We're gonna get deep,

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as you know, as we always do at Jay's analysis.

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And we have with us another researcher we have with us,

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George tonight, George.

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Speaker 6: How you doing, Hey, Jay, I'm doing great. Thanks for

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having me here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, glad, You're glad you're with us. You've done a

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lot of research on this topic, and I think you're

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going to put together some material. Maybe you're working on

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a book or something like that. Tell us about yourself

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whatever you're comfortable letting us know.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, So I'm George. I've done a lot of

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reading into and studying into the differences between the Roman

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Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox Church. I've been writing a

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book compiling my notes such on the history of these differences,

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such as on infant communion, triple immersion, and baptism, celibacy

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of priests, papal supremacy, you know, all the differences purgatory,

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but especially forgeries, which is the topic today. So it's

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definitely interested me for the last seven or eight years,

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and I've been Yeah, it's a topic I've been really

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interested in.

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Speaker 3: Awesome. So, and and I'm not trying to quiz you,

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but are you Are you Orthodox?

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Speaker 6: Yes? Yeah, that's right. I've been Orthodox my my whole life.

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I mean I was born and baptized as an infant. Yeah.

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I live in California near La So and my family

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background is Lebanese and so I but maybe it was

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only in the last like ten years or so that

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I re focus on Christianity and and got a lot

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more interested in learning about history and the truth.

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Speaker 4: Awesome all right, So I've got your your notes here,

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and we got a lot of stuff to get through.

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Speaker 3: So let's let's dive into this.

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Speaker 4: It's going to be a little scholarly and heavy tonight,

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so everybody be prepared. We're going to make this as

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delightful as we can.

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Speaker 3: Where do you want to start?

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Speaker 4: Do you want to do you want to launch into

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the this list right away?

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Speaker 3: Or how do you want to go about it?

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Speaker 6: I think that's good. I think it's good to also

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maybe preface it. I noticed in one your recent tweet

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where you said that's pretty good, it's worth voting in

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the beginning.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was thinking about this list as I was.

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Speaker 4: I printed it out today before we were going to

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do this live stream, and I was looking through this list,

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and it occurred to me, where was the infallible magisterial

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guidance of the Roman sea in the midst of these

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you know, twenty nine to thirty examples that you have

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of sporterers, but now they're not all cited by the pope,

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but I mean in many cases they are, and it's

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just a sort of it Steiny's the mind to ask

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the question, where was the spirit guiding the Romans? Did

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the spirit not want to tell the Roman see that

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these are forgeries that are being cited to or is

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it is people infallibility just not what we think that

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it is right? And so we're kind of left of

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one of these dilemmas where it's like, well, we were

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infallible when we were right, but all those instances where

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things were wrong, that was actually the instances where we

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were we were fallible right. The other times we're infallible.

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So we're kind of left at this impasse of the

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sort of begging the question motif that's you know, so

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consistent with the.

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Speaker 3: Roman Catholic apologetic approach. So so, yeah, where was the

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magisterial guidance to not know that forgeries were being cited

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in many many cases?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's definitely.

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Speaker 3: All right, Sogainn does.

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Speaker 5: So on one side, you have the infallibility that you're

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supposed to bring some level of omnissions or at least

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guarantee truth. And I've seen many people when you're discussed

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with Bara on all discord, you know, and when we

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discussed with other apologies, I would say that there is

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some level of uh and undefeatable ignorance that applies as

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well invincibleance. So it's weird you have simultaneously some level

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of omnissions and the same time some level of ignorance.

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It is present all over the documents. You know, if

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you look at Vatican one, you even have factual errors.

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You have factual and historical errors. But yeah, many many

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declaration and we're gonna we're gonna dive into just the

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biggest example, but many magisterial declarations use a factually false

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factory fores, and that the Vatican admits to be forties today.

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Speaker 3: Right, all right, so let's get into it. What's where

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do you want to take us first?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we could start with the donation of Constantine. It's

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a really well known forgery. I mean that and the

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pseudo Isidorian decretals, but I think it did. This is

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pretty important and worth noting. Maybe the most interesting part

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about this is that that Pope Leo the ninth, on

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the eve of the Sism in the early ten fifties,

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he cited nearly the entire donation of Constantine to Michael

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Ceri Larius, the patriarch of Constantinople, and telling him this is,

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you know, the proof of our supremacy, and and he

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so confidently insists upon it. And more than that, he says,

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you know, we don't appeal to fables, old wife's stories.

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And it's as if he was utterly ignorant that this

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is inauthentic. And so it's pretty significant that this was

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cited right on the even of theism, and and twice

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by Popelio the ninth to justify that sism. Yeah, along

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with claims that the Greeks removed the philioquay from the Creed.

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I mean, the document excommunicating the Orthodox in ten fifty

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four says that the Orthodox removed the philioque from the Creed,

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and it's it's that's not historically accurate because it was

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never in there to begin with, right, But they didn't

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didn't seem to uh yeah, and.

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Speaker 4: There you have even new advent. I've got a new

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advent on the screen. You can see that calling Encyclopedia,

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you know is oh, yes, this is a forged document.

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And but we're pointing out here that you know, this

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is this has been used as a justification in particularly

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here in the situation of the schism itself.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean we could I don't know if we

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should read a passage from it or I mean to see, yeah, well,

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so in this it reads as the blessed Peters seemed

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to have been constituted vicar of the Son of God

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on the earth. So the pontiffs, who are the representatives

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of that same chief of the Apostles, should obtain from

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us in our empire the power of a supremacy greater

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than the clemency of our earthly imperial serenity, et cetera.

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And you know, saying that the chief of the apostles

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and his vicars are our constant intercessors with God. This

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is from the donation of Constantine, and it was cited

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by no less than ten popes at least I found

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a few more. I found about thirteen popes who either

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cited it directly or made like an incidental reference.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's good.

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Speaker 4: That's a good point there, because you know a Catholic

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Oh well, this is just some anomaly, so there was

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a forgery. Well no, this is you know, if it's

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cited by thirteen different popes, and that's more relevant. And

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by the way, in that citation that you have in

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your notes that you sent me, it goes on to

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talk about that the supremacy is over all. The principle

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sees not just the temporal power of the emperor, but

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it's also full supremacy over the other patriarchis which violates

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Canon six of Nicia, and it violates the Apostolic canons

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as well.

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Speaker 6: Yes, and it is interesting that this is I mean

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in the Catholic encyclopedia itself, I mean, they admit a

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lot of things. It is fairly impartial on some of

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these important points. You know, they admit that the first

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time a pope officially sited the donation it was in

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ten fifty four on the Eveypcism. It was probably the

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Night two side in the most bold fashioned. Others just

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made more like smaller references to it. But he cites

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like two full pages in Latin. Wow.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, what's very interesting that he doesn't site Few sixteen eighteen.

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If today's was this question, it would be like, you know,

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the Purples and Matthew sixteen eighteen, you know, appeal to

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evidence from that's very late. If you look at the skism,

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there were three grounds for it. The fact that the

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Greek supposedly removed the filioque from the creed, which is

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a factual historical error, it didn't happen. It was added

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the fact that Greek priests could be married men, which

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today the Vatican admit that you know, historically they changed it,

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and that they accepted through the units and the use

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of leaven bread. So there are three reasons. All of

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them are wrong, and there is by virtue of one authority,

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the donation of Constantine, which is also wrong. So if

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you look at this and look and think like, okay,

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there was this United Church before schism, and if you

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look at who's on the wrong side of the schism,

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it's wrong because Rome initiated it on wrong grounds with

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a wrong authority, and today they admit it right. And

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that's what we'll see that many forgeries are pertaining to

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the authority of the pubs, the authority of Peter and

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the filioquy exactly original, exactly.

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Speaker 3: This is a great point.

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Speaker 5: Were right the philioqui to justify schism? Because is there

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the wrong? Yeah, in terms of schism.

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Speaker 4: So the forgeries were necessary to justify their actions, and

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that's crucial to understand. You might say, well, these are

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just historical accidents and anomalies. No, no, no, it was

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necessary to do this to justify the actions of the

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schism and to justify Oh, well, you removed the Philioqui

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from the creed. I mean, who is so stupid as

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to think that the Philioquoi was removed from the creed?

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Speaker 3: This is utterly ridiculous.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. I like how the Orthodox and Cyclical of eighteen

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I think eighteen ninety five it says that the Latins

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condemned themselves by their own ignorance. I like the phrasing

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because they condemned those who mess with the creed, then

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they're the one they're condemning themselves by their.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're condemned for changing the creed, then you're

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condemn yourself because.

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Speaker 3: We didn't change the creed.

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Speaker 4: And I think everybody should know this by now, which

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is utterly ridiculous. Okay, so there's more here in your

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notes on the donation. Is there anything else you want

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to touch on there?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess I should quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia

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on the Donation. It says they affirmed that this document

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is without doubt a forgery fabricated somewhere between the years

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seven fifty and eight fifty, and that it was generally

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considered authentic until the fifteenth century. That it was exposed

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by the Treaties of Lorenzo Vala in fourteen forty, which

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is said to have proved the forgery with certainty. But

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even after it was exposed in the Renaissance, still Roman

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Catholic defenders of the donation existed. In fact, it's very

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interesting that we find a few inquisitors and officials in

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the Roman Church saying, as I quoted, he who denies

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the donation lies under suspicion of heresy and others. Yeah,

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others say, you come near to heresy if you pronounce

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the donation to be null and void. And it seems

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it finally was abandoned at the end of the sixteenth

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century after Baronius the History the Roman historian admitted that

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it was a forgery. But and I like what Dolinger

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says says about it. I mean, maybe you know, in

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my book I do make extensive quotation, so I don't

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know how that might work in a live feed, but

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I think might as well read this paragraph of Dolinger

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if you're okay. Yeah, so he says. On the other hand,

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Nicholas Tudeshi, who was considered by his contemporaries as the

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greatest of all canonists, declares that he who denies the

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donation lies under suspicion of heresy. Cardinal Parisius and the

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Spanish Bishop are Old Albertinas declare the same. Whosoever pronounces

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the donation to be noll and void says the latter

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comes very near to heresy. But whosoever maintains that never

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took place at all is and is still worst case.

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Antonius Rozales and Ludwig Gomez are of the same opinion,

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and Cardinal Hieronymous Albano declares this much at least, that

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there exists shameless persons who refused to submit to the

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unity of the fathers respecting the donation, or according to

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this or according to the expression of Petrous Igneus to

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the tota Academia canonist tarum at legislaturum, the whole academy

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of canonists and legislators, with the whole host of theologians

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to boot. But after Cardinal Baronius had once for all

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confessed the unauthenticity of the donation, all these voices, which

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had shortly before been so numerous and so loud, became dumb.

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That's what Dollinger says. You know, he had been a

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Roman Catholic for fifty years, I mean a professor for

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fifty years, a Roman Catholic for eighty years, and then

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he rejected the Vatican Council.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, Dulinger is one of the foremost scholars in

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terms of the forgery. Soever book. It's called The Papacy,

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it's originally the Middle Ages and its continuation, and so

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it's six hundred pages, four hundred and fifty hundred of

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them are just references where he shows.

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Speaker 6: I recommend that book. Yeah, I've read it, it's really good.

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Speaker 5: So he's just exposing and he says that there is

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a systemic problem of forgeries. That he supposes there was

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even a full department of the Vaticans. It was dedicated

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to forging stuff.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, something interesting about the Nation of Constantine that

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it was still quoted by some Roman Catholic even after

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there was general admissions that they were wrong, especially absentcious Legory.

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But you know about it.

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Speaker 3: So the doctor of the church who justifies lying and

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who obsesses on the way that everyone is going to

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be punished in hell, uh, he still cites these as

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for these forged documents, even after it was admitted pretty

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much by everybody.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Ligory does I mean, I know, at least the

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pseudo is doing the cridles. I'm not sure about the donation.

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Speaker 5: The pudo is doing. For sure. He admits it in

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his own writings. Like in his own writings he says

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it is our thought. But yeah, he still uses it,

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and he's honored as you know, the most zealous doctor.

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Speaker 4: Well what if we're gonna, I mean, what's wrong with

317
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lying if we just keep people from you know, leaving

318
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,200
the Barkipeter, right, I mean if you if you leave

319
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,319
the Barkipeter, you lose your soul. So it's justified line.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the chasuistical immorality. Yeah, that's yeah, it's it's

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not moral, but that's a separated Yeah, that's why it's.

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Speaker 4: Called Casustrie exactly. Yeah, I mean, that's that's what we

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have a problem with. And I mean it just opens

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the door to all this nonsense. And this is why

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you see a lot of people in the Triad world

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acting the way that they do. They have a worldview

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which is based on all this nonsense, and so they

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have to prop it up and act like goblins.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's and they just can't deal with the facts.

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Speaker 4: They can't deal with these that their own church right

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is gone into the downward spiral of madness that it

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has because of being based on centuries and centuries and

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centuries of lies and deceptions.

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Speaker 3: That's what you get. The end result is a giant

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pedo cult.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: It's really crazy to see how much forgeries were used.

338
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I mean it's I mean I had a lot of

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sympathy for the traditionalist Roman Catholics. That's what got me

340
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,480
interested in this, Like coming across some of these online saying, Okay,

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you know, if you're not Roman Catholic, then you're you're

342
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not saved. So it's absolutely necessary you become a Roman Catholic.

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And well, you know it's this is an important subject

344
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affecting each of us, you know, the question of our salvation.

345
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So I personally felt I wanted to follow up sometimes

346
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maybe one thing I really would insist upon always is

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verify references. When whenever you come across some kind of

348
00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:37,880
citation or quote. Mind as Snack mentioned, love these quote nines.

349
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If you look at the citations, sometimes you'll find it's

350
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an authentic Sometimes you'll find it's misquoted. I gave some

351
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examples we could talk about later tonight.

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Speaker 5: I'm just gonna make a small rand about quot lights

353
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and stuff. Oftentimes you will find, you know, a Catholic

354
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apological website just rowse of you know, twenty quotes, and

355
00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:01,279
you know you've done a strait wi the last time

356
00:25:01,319 --> 00:25:03,559
that sometimes you can have legitimate quotes that are quoted,

357
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,400
you know, out of context, that are quoted in a

358
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,039
way that that doesn't prove Roman supremacy that prove you know,

359
00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:17,119
premise in honor. Saints are quoted without you know, the life.

360
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,920
For example, how can Augustine be a papist if he

361
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presided over a counsul. That's says that you cannot appeal

362
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to Rome. And so that's one problem. But when you

363
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:32,359
go sometimes you will find some coach, you know, that

364
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:40,160
market contentious and if you look, you know the they're

365
00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:43,640
usually listed, you know, in Court Minds and Roman Apologic website.

366
00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:46,079
If you look at the quote, the quote actually brings

367
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,759
you to a book. The book will bring you to

368
00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:51,240
the p G and the p L, which are you know,

369
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:59,160
Patrol Petro Latina, the big the big volumes of Patristics.

370
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And when you go in there, and actually one of

371
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:08,480
my mentors, Jean aposthetized from the SSPX just by looking

372
00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:10,480
at this, because when you go in there, you'll see

373
00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:14,440
that the text itself admits that there were modification. Sometimes

374
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,440
you will have people have footnotes where it says this

375
00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:21,319
text was modified to fit the Roman doctrine. You will

376
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,359
have variations, so sometimes you will have an Orthodox variation

377
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,799
the footnotes. Sometimes you will have the you will have

378
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,960
the Orthodox variation. But the Catholic website will still quote

379
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,279
a footnote that is that is an alternate Catholic version,

380
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:38,400
you know, very papist. Sometimes you will have the correct

381
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,599
saying two words, and the two words will be translated

382
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,160
into Latin into two paragraphs. When about the video quay

383
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:50,039
one about the premise you of Peter, So just looking

384
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,079
at this text is already a big problem. Like you

385
00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:56,240
see that the text themselves, they admit it's a mess.

386
00:26:56,279 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 4: They admit, yeah, it's massive, it's mastly right, and and

387
00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:02,839
a lot of uh normy tyr pop apologist don't even

388
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:03,440
care about this.

389
00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 3: There's no concern for this.

390
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 4: If you're reading you know, Stephen Ray or Dave Armstrong

391
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,119
or these kind of guys, you're just going to get

392
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,599
these books that basically just do the quote mine. Oh look,

393
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,880
here's twenty quotes. So therefore Catholic answer shows you that,

394
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,000
you know, Patrick Madrid, all these guys do the exact

395
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:21,880
same thing. Mark Shea, it's just a copy paste model

396
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,880
from from websites. And then, like Snack says, when you

397
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,960
actually go and look at the quotes, it's more there's

398
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,279
more to it than that. There's variations on this, and

399
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,720
these guys don't ever even touch on the you know,

400
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,920
famous long list of forgeries.

401
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 3: So you want to move on to the next one.

402
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 5: The pseudo is that one one more thing to say.

403
00:27:39,759 --> 00:27:43,759
But you know, a quote increased, you know sometimes you

404
00:27:43,799 --> 00:27:47,680
know the website would even will fully you know, stop

405
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:50,920
stop a quote and actually easy timon brothers do this,

406
00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:53,359
so they will you know, they will lease the apostles

407
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,400
and they would just you know, and everything after Peter.

408
00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:58,759
Yeah right, so you know, is the bishops are important,

409
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:01,359
it would stop everything after the.

410
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 3: Pope lying biomission.

411
00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:04,279
Speaker 6: Yeah.

412
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,079
Speaker 5: Yeah. Sometimes you will have you know, willfully willful mistranslation

413
00:28:09,319 --> 00:28:13,359
sometimes so we'll add added notes and on. But sometimes

414
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,599
you still find, you know, one in a million, you

415
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,240
will find one quarter still looks paper. And then if

416
00:28:20,279 --> 00:28:21,920
you go to the manuscript, and if you could put

417
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,680
up this picture of the manuscript, sometimes you will you

418
00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:28,160
will find you will have to go to the manuscript

419
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,799
and in the manuscript you will see that there are

420
00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:35,359
blatant things that were added. So for example, here's an example.

421
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,039
I don't know if you have it on screen, but

422
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,319
of Saint Gregory is a great and in his dialogues,

423
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,799
so book two, chapter thirty eight, you can see that

424
00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:55,640
there was a failure added. So in the manuscript itself,

425
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,079
someone came after and added a mentioned you know, of

426
00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:02,759
procession by the father and the son. The son was

427
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,720
was added. I don't know if you can pull up

428
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:06,279
the pictures.

429
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: I would if I had it, I don't have.

430
00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 4: I on two different computers, so one of them is

431
00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:16,359
logged into the Skype and the other one isn't, so

432
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:19,160
I don't have If you said that, if you send

433
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,640
an image to me on discord, I.

434
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,359
Speaker 3: Can put that up.

435
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, I'll do this right now.

436
00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 3: Go ahead.

437
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,119
Speaker 5: So even if you go to the manuscript, you'll see

438
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:36,480
that there are still forgeries and it's still it's still

439
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,519
a huge problem. So that's why you shouldn't, you know,

440
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,799
give into the court mind. If you if you actually

441
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:44,519
take your time, you will you will find that there

442
00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:49,359
will be layers of errors, and not everybody has the

443
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,599
time to read the intire chef set. You read it,

444
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,079
and you know, reading the entire chap set, you understand

445
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:59,039
it a little bit better. That was just my mariunt

446
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:02,039
about court minds. Don't take it. Don't take them for granted.

447
00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:05,599
As for the sources, look at the sources. People will

448
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,799
just you know, code them with that without even thinking.

449
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 4: Yes, So I'm pulling these uh these images up here,

450
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,359
and I'm gonna put this on the screen force here

451
00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:24,039
and so this is from one of Gregory's dialogues.

452
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 3: And you can see that this has been added here.

453
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 5: So yeah, that's from the original managecrip, you have the failure,

454
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,079
you know, just justify the.

455
00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:35,319
Speaker 3: Video quacks just written up there in the in the margins.

456
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 6: Yeah.

457
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:39,359
Speaker 5: Sometimes it's even more blatant. Sometimes we'll see that a

458
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,000
different ink was used, you know, you like you can

459
00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:45,000
see the difference in coloration, different ink, different time period,

460
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,880
different writings. Sometimes you will even see like a different

461
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,200
writing styles because it evolves.

462
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah, so I've got it on the screen.

463
00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:57,920
You can see that it's added up there.

464
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 4: So uh so yeah, so you know from the Roman mindset,

465
00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:05,079
Oh well, the ce for he taught there, it is

466
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,400
right there, and you can clearly see that someone has

467
00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:09,799
added that there at some point.

468
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, people will not go to the manuscript. They won't

469
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,759
even go to the to the books it's quoted the pgs.

470
00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:16,960
They will of course never go to the pg in

471
00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:20,480
pl so they don't do the work it's based on ignorance,

472
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,920
and that's a big problem people who just quote my

473
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:29,200
court mind and it's not scholarly, it's not it's not decent,

474
00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:33,440
but and it's oftentimes not honest. But we've already demonstrated,

475
00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:35,880
if you know Ligorianism and so on, that if you

476
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,640
can lie by admission, if you can be generally dishonest,

477
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,119
that still bring people to Rome's. It's it's not a

478
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,480
big deal. So I guess now we can move on

479
00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:45,480
to this big list.

480
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, yeah, should we go on to that. We

481
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:54,880
can talk about the Philly Okay, later I did prepare

482
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:01,240
some notes about that, including that quote of Gregory. But yeah.

483
00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:04,400
The next topic was the pseudo Zidorian Decredels, which is

484
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,039
maybe the most significant. I mean that alone, it could

485
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:10,640
there's a lot to say about that. That's maybe the

486
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,920
most extensively used of all the Roman collections. This is

487
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:20,599
what was so the Catholic of Cyclopedia. It's it says

488
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,200
that so the false Estorian Decredils is verse to a

489
00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:28,480
collection of forged papal letters and other apocryphal documents. They

490
00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:31,640
were created around the year eight fifty, and they are

491
00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:37,200
said to be from Saint Isidora or Isidor, who was

492
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,839
the Bishop of Seville in Spain from six hundred to

493
00:32:40,079 --> 00:32:42,759
six thirty six. He's alleged to be the compiler of

494
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:45,640
that collection. And so these forged documents claim to be

495
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,680
from the early ages of the Church and give decretals

496
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,440
from popes from the first century to the fourth century.

497
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:59,880
And this forgery greatly promoted the papacy. It had other

498
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,559
motives as well, to defend the bishops against the secular powers.

499
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,880
But the Catholic Encyclopedia admits it must be admitted that

500
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,920
the popes benefited by the forgeries, although it says their

501
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,519
good faith is beyond question. According to the Catholic encyclopa

502
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,079
but we could say that the ready acceptance of the

503
00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:24,720
popes of these forgeries cast suspicion upon that statement that

504
00:33:24,759 --> 00:33:31,240
their good faith is beyond question. There's some yeah, there's

505
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,920
a lot to say about that as well. So we

506
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,119
could go further. I mean, in the Council of Florence,

507
00:33:38,279 --> 00:33:41,279
we did. The Greeks were pressured with a lot of

508
00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:47,160
these visitoriandkredles, and it's quite well known. In fact, I mean,

509
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,599
I might like to make another quote from a former

510
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,319
Roman Catholic in the eighteen hundreds. If that's okay, yeah,

511
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,920
let's see, this was a guy named folks f fou

512
00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:06,279
l k e s he was saying, he wrote to

513
00:34:06,319 --> 00:34:08,960
Cardinal Manning in eighteen hundreds. Is it credible that the

514
00:34:09,039 --> 00:34:11,840
papacy should have so often appealed to these forgeries for

515
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:16,320
its extended claims? Had it any better authorities, distinctive authorities

516
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,800
to fall back upon. Every disputant on the Latin side

517
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,679
finds in these forgeries a convincing argument against the Greeks.

518
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,280
Quote to prove this, the universal jurisdiction of the pope,

519
00:34:27,519 --> 00:34:31,760
said Abbot Barlem, himself converted by them from the Greek Church.

520
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,000
To convert his countrymen, one need only look through the

521
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,079
decredal epistles of the Roman pontiffs, from Saint Clement to

522
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:43,599
Saint Sylvester. And that's a quote from Abbot Barlem. And

523
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,039
in the twenty fifth session of the Council of Florence,

524
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,280
the Provincial of the Dominicans is ordered to address the

525
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,719
Greeks on the rights of the Pope, the Pope being

526
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,639
present twice. He argues from these pseudodecretal of Saint Anacletus,

527
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,519
at another time from this synodical letter of Saint Finacious

528
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:03,239
to Felix at another time from a letter of Julius

529
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,199
to the Easterns. All forgeries. Afterwards, in reply to objections

530
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,000
taken by Bessarian in conference to their authority apart from

531
00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:13,960
the question of their authenticity, his position in another speech

532
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:17,639
is that those decretal epistles of the Pope, being synautical

533
00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:20,440
epistles in each case, are entitled to the same authority

534
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,519
as the canons themselves. Can we need further evidence of

535
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:26,639
the weight attached to them on the Latin side.

536
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 5: So this is.

537
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 6: And yeah, there's even more examples. I mean, if if

538
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:36,239
you're going to look into the acts of the Council forwards,

539
00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:39,159
there's they really excited and maybe it's good to give

540
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:40,239
a few examples of what.

541
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 4: These Yeah, because Florence is huge for the whole you

542
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,760
know East West divide, so absolutely.

543
00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:50,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's huge for the you know, papal consolidation.

544
00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:53,559
And that's what's very funny is that to use this

545
00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:56,800
as cuffolding, so the papacy would not have been possible

546
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,559
these forgeries, yes, and those are is you know, propped up.

547
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,119
Know that this building has been you know built, give

548
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:08,039
this forgeries that like, oh, we can remove these forgeries. Actually,

549
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,039
you know, they're not important, so the pub becomes infalliable

550
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:16,920
and becomes supreme and song the forgeries, and then over time,

551
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,880
you know, or the purpuse is valuable so it doesn't

552
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,679
need the forgeries, so we can discard them. I mean,

553
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,880
is it a scuffolding? Is it the house of cards?

554
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,679
You know, if these are the things that make the

555
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,079
pope supreme? If if you discard those things, the purple

556
00:36:32,119 --> 00:36:34,880
is no longer supreme, and the Pope themselves discards these

557
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,320
things that created the papacy.

558
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're they're admitted by the Vatican and all the

559
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,800
scholars in that hole Ethos to be forgeries.

560
00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:47,519
Speaker 3: And so I mean, like, at what point do we

561
00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:48,920
finally just give this thought?

562
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:49,199
Speaker 5: You know?

563
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, the Catholic Encyclopedia makes them really astonishing admissions. I mean,

564
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:01,840
it's it's there's a lot to mention, which it's very

565
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,760
presented in the book. But I'll just mention a few

566
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,639
things that I'll quote. Far from the Catholic Encyclopedia from

567
00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:13,280
the nineteen tenths. It says it was only under Leo

568
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,960
the ninth from ten forty eight to ten fifty four

569
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:21,599
that they false decretals took firm hole at Rome. And

570
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:29,320
then we see that a lot of these canonists, including Gration,

571
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:35,360
Gregory the seventh and so many other state included these

572
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,840
false documents in their collections. And okay, let's see I

573
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,519
made a note about the Chef's encyclopedia. Okay, yeah, another

574
00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:49,119
important thing. So the collection made in Italy under Leo

575
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:51,719
the ninth in the year ten to fifty is little

576
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,440
more than a compendium of the pseudo Isidoriana. Two hundred

577
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,119
and fifty of its three hundred and fifteen chapters are

578
00:37:58,159 --> 00:38:02,840
from the forgery. And this is just one of many collections.

579
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:08,599
So they entered into all these collections of canons, and

580
00:38:09,199 --> 00:38:11,599
so they were they helped sway from around the year

581
00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:16,239
eight fifty till well after fifteen fifty, so it's a

582
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:21,039
period of seven hundred years. And even the official edition

583
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,079
of the Corpus Jurists from Rome in fifteen eighty it

584
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,760
upheld the genuineness of the false decreidels and it's very

585
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:36,800
The last scholar, according to a quote from Colton, he's

586
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,039
a great Anglican scholar. In the nineteen thirties wrote against

587
00:38:40,119 --> 00:38:42,519
Rome says. The last scholar to admit a defense of

588
00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:46,559
the genuineness of these decredles was the Spanish Benedictine js Aguaer,

589
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:50,519
professor of theology at Salavanca and Secretary to the Inquisition

590
00:38:50,639 --> 00:38:54,800
in Spain, in the seventh dissertation of his Collectio Conciliorum Hispanie.

591
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,000
The book was printed in sixteen eighty three and the

592
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:01,119
author was promoted to the cardinalate in sixteen eighty six,

593
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:06,119
but no modern Roman scholar takes as dissertation seriously, So

594
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,119
the last scholar of the fandom was in sixteen eighty three,

595
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,039
even though they were still cited afterwards by ignorant Roman

596
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:16,719
Catholics who just maybe got them from previous quote minds

597
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,519
that were printed. They just just quoted them, appeal to

598
00:39:20,599 --> 00:39:22,280
them without being careful.

599
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 5: Since we're own the Console of Florence, something that we

600
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:31,360
might bring up is another forgery. You know, many oftentimes

601
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,159
you will have a Catholic coming in terms of oh,

602
00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:35,599
you know, you accept the console of Floor and the

603
00:39:35,679 --> 00:39:39,840
patriarchs signed. Actually the patriarch was not at the end.

604
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:46,039
It died a little bit before in weird circumstances. But

605
00:39:46,199 --> 00:39:52,800
that the document that is used is a last letters. Well,

606
00:39:55,039 --> 00:39:58,960
and what's very interesting is that is this letter and

607
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,079
I'll let Georgia go ahead that this letter is dated

608
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,239
from one day after his death. So this letter is

609
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,840
signed one day after the death of the guy who

610
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:11,719
supersely wrote it.

611
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, that's that's the testament of Patriarch Joseph at

612
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,119
the Council of Florence. Yeah, that's also something important and

613
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:26,199
worth mentioning, especially since that that's still cited by Roman Catholics,

614
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:31,679
including that the Diamond Brothers group they in their video

615
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,159
on the Council of Florence. So this is basically, you know,

616
00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:38,079
the Patriarch of Conception Nopal Joseph the second he died

617
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,719
during the council. He died June tenth, fourteen thirty nine.

618
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,159
But it's he was said to have before his death.

619
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,920
Ron his death that signed a declaration in which he

620
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,800
admitted the philioque, purgatory and papal supremacy, saying, you know,

621
00:40:54,159 --> 00:40:58,519
apparently says I acknowledge the Holy Father of Fathers, the

622
00:40:58,559 --> 00:41:01,039
Supreme Pontiff and Vicar of our Lord Jesus Christ, the

623
00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:05,159
Pope of Rome. Likewise, I acknowledged purgatory in the affirmation

624
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,760
of this, I fixed my signature, so it's been shown

625
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,360
that this is not his actual This wasn't written by

626
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,119
the patriarch. Yeah, like Sneck mentioned the date on it

627
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,079
is June eleventh, even though he died June tenth, So

628
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:21,960
is it's obviously he didn't write it after he died.

629
00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:28,199
And I mean I've seen the defense from that scholar

630
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,239
Gil where he says, oh, maybe the patriarch didn't know

631
00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:33,360
the correct date or something. But there's other evidences too.

632
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,840
It was written by someone whose first language was It

633
00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:40,800
appears to have been Latin, not Greek, based on the

634
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,559
way the document is latinized, like the scholar fromon the

635
00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:49,239
German scholar, he made an extensive investigation into this document.

636
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,440
He said, quote, this document is so latinized and corresponds

637
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,880
so little to the opinion expressed by the patriarch several

638
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,000
days before that, its spuriousness is evident. And then yeah

639
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,079
from a in scholar, awesome.

640
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 5: And this is besides the fact that they apparently wrote

641
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:05,559
it beyond the grave.

642
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's it's definitely it was never even

643
00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:11,880
cited at the council itself.

644
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 4: Well, just they just need an apparition to come and

645
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,559
say that this was done, you know, from the grave.

646
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:18,679
Speaker 3: So then it would be.

647
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 5: Since we're talking about the lack of Hellenism, on to quote.

648
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,639
Another forgeries that's still being used today is the creed

649
00:42:29,679 --> 00:42:30,480
of Ethnicius.

650
00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:32,079
Speaker 4: I was about to ask you guys that, Yeah, I

651
00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:34,199
have that in my notes. If you have the Athenian

652
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,239
creed mentioned because the state of a conscious and the

653
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,599
traads all side this, they don't even know it's a forgery.

654
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, So the Athoenician creed is supposedly from Athenicious, but

655
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:47,199
when you look at it, and you know, all these

656
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,400
students that look at it, including Geta, says, you know,

657
00:42:50,039 --> 00:42:54,000
there's no trace of Hellenism there. It's not being quoted

658
00:42:54,079 --> 00:42:56,239
anywhere in the East. Is not being quoted by Cyril,

659
00:42:56,519 --> 00:43:02,639
who was you know, you'd admiration for Athnicius. It is

660
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,400
it doesn't correspond to the ideas of Athnicius, because Athnicises

661
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:12,559
himself fought against people what ideas similar to the philioquin

662
00:43:12,679 --> 00:43:17,519
or the potomatomacon. The Macedonians equaled them Pagans for for

663
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,239
saying that the philioque as the spirit will be subordinated

664
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,679
to the sun. And it's not even quoted during the achism.

665
00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:29,280
So if one of the biggest father of the East,

666
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,719
you know, wrote something that the philioquay in it, without

667
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,480
doubt it would have been quoted, you know, by the

668
00:43:35,679 --> 00:43:38,159
poet during the schism. The first time it's mentioned, it's

669
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,239
the twelfth century, so it's after the schism, is to

670
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:46,880
justify the schism that this one is being quoted. And

671
00:43:47,079 --> 00:43:49,760
this one is still used today. Oftentimes they will use

672
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:55,280
it instead of the regular creed because you know, it's

673
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,280
it's for them, it's a proof. You know, it's very

674
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:02,639
old creed. And so all these story discarding it and

675
00:44:03,039 --> 00:44:08,000
big use no problem, all right, So which one do

676
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:08,400
we all know?

677
00:44:08,679 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: Number?

678
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 6: We could go to? What's next? Oh? The Oh, the

679
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,480
very serious one is that Katina used by a Quinas. So,

680
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,519
I mean my my book, the Titles Errors of the

681
00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:24,280
Latins that I wrote. That title is a kind of

682
00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:30,880
response to Thomas Aquinas. He wrote Storum yeah, and he's

683
00:44:31,639 --> 00:44:35,599
yeah saying talking trying to prove the Greeks are wrong.

684
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,400
But what's interesting is I spent a couple nights, some

685
00:44:39,519 --> 00:44:43,760
late nights, just looking carefully into each of these passages.

686
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,760
So so in total, Thomas Aquinas makes two hundred and

687
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:52,400
eleven patriots excitations in this book against the Greeks. Out

688
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,840
of the hundred and eleven, one hundred and fifty two

689
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,920
of them are inauthentic, about seventy seventy two percent.

690
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 4: And this is I bring this up to trads and

691
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,320
I don't even know what you're talking about. They just

692
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,039
call you names. They don't even deal with the arguments.

693
00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:09,320
And like, you know, Aquinas relied on a document full

694
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:09,960
of forgeries.

695
00:45:11,119 --> 00:45:16,559
Speaker 2: Shut up, plague, shut up, KGB, shut up, shut up, retard.

696
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,119
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, okay, good argument, dude.

697
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's a yes, that's the most you know,

698
00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:26,880
that's a chief theology and to the most influent, and

699
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,360
what he got from the previous tradition, from the pusant

700
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,519
that is mostly forgeries. It's mostly fake. So how can

701
00:45:34,599 --> 00:45:38,119
he be you know, this genius understood everything in sympathizal

702
00:45:38,159 --> 00:45:42,039
tradition where it doesn't know about the farthest where he

703
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,159
uses many miscuits.

704
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,559
Speaker 4: And you said out of out of uh, let's see

705
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,880
one and fifty two out of two hundred eleven or

706
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,800
seventy two of the Patristic citations and Aquinas's contra Aroorius

707
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,400
Orcorum are inauthentic.

708
00:45:57,159 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 3: Many false quotes from Saint Cyril and others.

709
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,199
Speaker 4: This has a mass of impact on Catholic apologetic literature

710
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,840
from many centuries. So these are not just random, Oh

711
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,199
you found some tonal clipping that was somebody's tonail was

712
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,000
was off in history? No, no, this is what influenced

713
00:46:13,039 --> 00:46:15,280
apologists for you know, centuries.

714
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 3: This is not yet nothing.

715
00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:24,079
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's it's amazing that that from a Quinness,

716
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,119
it really was used by everyone, like he became that

717
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,320
quote mind source And the source of these letters is

718
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,119
it's it's said to be from a guy named Nicholas

719
00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:40,239
of Cotrone who sent a collection called Libellus to Pope

720
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,360
Urban the fourth, Yeah, I believe. And then he's Urban

721
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,599
sent it to a Quinnas and telling him like write

722
00:46:46,599 --> 00:46:49,440
a book, you know, against the Greeks and so on, right,

723
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:52,880
and and that was where we get it. So I

724
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,519
mean it's really like the Pope himself kind of forwarded

725
00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:01,880
these this libels, and pretty much the whole collection is

726
00:47:02,039 --> 00:47:04,679
from the libels. Like out of that two hundred eleven

727
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,239
actually two oh five are from that Libellus of the

728
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,519
Patriotic Code. And I was actually being a bit generous

729
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,840
because I was there were a few like improperly quoted things.

730
00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:17,159
I was like, okay, that's all. Let that count as

731
00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:17,840
a real quote.

732
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 4: But I mean, yeah, interesting how the traads never talk

733
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,519
about this, They never touch on this, They never explain this.

734
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,079
Speaker 3: This is all ignored and they just get mad if

735
00:47:28,119 --> 00:47:30,480
you talk about it. Why why why aren't.

736
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 5: The like today you have Catholic website called Katina will

737
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:40,480
use you know this this bank of quotation, right? That

738
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,800
quite excuse. So people are studying the Bible before quote.

739
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,760
The greatest theologian has been has been working before quote.

740
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:54,639
Speaker 6: Yeah. Actually, when you hear about is the angelic doctor

741
00:47:54,800 --> 00:48:00,840
so highly praised by multiple popes as if or guiding

742
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,519
him while he's writing these books, Well, no angels were

743
00:48:03,559 --> 00:48:07,920
helping him with this book at least, or they would

744
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,840
have told him that, you know, you're not using this

745
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:11,760
isn't what Yeah, yeah.

746
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: We're going to see this.

747
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're going to see the same problem later on

748
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,039
in the Maryan Apparition of Fatima, where Mary seems to

749
00:48:19,079 --> 00:48:21,760
have not known well, I don't know why the angels

750
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,920
in the Holy Spirit didn't tell Mary that England was

751
00:48:26,119 --> 00:48:31,960
instrumental in shipping Bolshevism and communism to Russia, is particularly

752
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,360
the Western banking power, the the the elites in the West.

753
00:48:35,599 --> 00:48:37,760
But no, this is this somehow Mary forgot to mention

754
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,760
this at Fatima as she just happens to mention the

755
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,559
geopolitically useful idea that Russia.

756
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,119
Speaker 3: Will spread her errors to the rest of the world.

757
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,679
Speaker 4: Where were Karl Marx and Frederick Ingles from. Oh they

758
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,320
were from England, exactly right. But we know it's Russia

759
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,519
that's going to spread her errors to the world. Okay, okay, Mary,

760
00:48:56,559 --> 00:48:57,480
quote unquote.

761
00:48:57,199 --> 00:49:03,599
Speaker 6: Mary, Yeah, I haven't looked too much into the Mary

762
00:49:03,639 --> 00:49:04,440
and apparitions.

763
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,039
Speaker 4: Well, I'm just making an analogy to the fact that,

764
00:49:07,199 --> 00:49:09,239
like it's the same kind of issue of like, well,

765
00:49:10,679 --> 00:49:13,559
why what I mean this isn't this isn't disputed. I

766
00:49:13,599 --> 00:49:16,079
mean this is where crawl Marx and Ingles are from. Right,

767
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,000
that they're wealthy. Ingles was sort of the monetary support

768
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:21,960
for Marx.

769
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:25,639
Speaker 3: Is he Russian? Are either these people were Russian?

770
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:26,039
Speaker 5: No?

771
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 4: But what does Mary say, get ready for you know

772
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,519
world wars that are coming with Russia. Russia is the

773
00:49:32,599 --> 00:49:35,960
problem here exactly. You see, so in other words, it

774
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,039
has a geopolitical use, is what I'm trying to say.

775
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:41,440
So in the same way, just like with the first

776
00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:45,199
forgeries that we mentioned, there's a justification that comes through

777
00:49:46,519 --> 00:49:49,559
citing forged documents for the actions of the papacy in

778
00:49:49,599 --> 00:49:52,679
regards to phili Oakuay, there's a justification that comes in.

779
00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 3: The apologetic moves.

780
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,599
Speaker 4: Oh well we were getting this from aquinas he's he's

781
00:49:56,679 --> 00:49:57,760
our angelic doctor.

782
00:49:58,639 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 3: You know, where was the Holy Spirit in these huge.

783
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:05,559
Speaker 4: Blundering errors that are now admitted by not just all

784
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:08,159
the competent scholars out there, but also the Vatican itself.

785
00:50:09,639 --> 00:50:14,639
Speaker 6: M Yeah, Yeah, there's definitely a lot of very stark

786
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:17,239
differences compared to the first millennium. And that's something I

787
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,519
was it's obvious that at least if you've if you

788
00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:24,840
aren't blinded by prejudice, I would say, you can see

789
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,079
these clear differences from the first millennium to the second millennium.

790
00:50:28,599 --> 00:50:32,639
These traditionalist Roman Catholics, and you know, said of the

791
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,239
Cants type folks, they're not really aware of the first

792
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,440
millennium of the Church, which is way different. A lot

793
00:50:39,519 --> 00:50:42,840
of things, I mean, customs changed, I mean those.

794
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 3: Well, the canons.

795
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,519
Speaker 4: I mean, the canons are one of the greatest ways

796
00:50:45,559 --> 00:50:47,880
to see this. As we've argued in previous strange you

797
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,840
know that the canons of the early canons, Asolt canons,

798
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,119
the cans of the councils, you know, they lend no

799
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,559
credence to the Roman system and the second millennium. And

800
00:50:57,639 --> 00:50:59,840
that's why you have all of these justifications.

801
00:51:00,039 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 3: It's forgeries, you say.

802
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:07,119
Speaker 5: Which is a perfect segue to to our next point.

803
00:51:08,159 --> 00:51:10,480
You know, talk a bit about the canons. We're gonna

804
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,039
try to cover some of the points, but the canons

805
00:51:14,079 --> 00:51:19,239
of the Arabic Canons of Nicia we're going to do next.

806
00:51:20,679 --> 00:51:24,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, we could go over that.

807
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 5: Let's see that to do all the canon things.

808
00:51:28,679 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, the Arabic cans and Nicia. So this is

809
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,880
these are said to be some uh canons issued by

810
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,840
the Council of Nicea, defended by some Roman Catholics that

811
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,880
uh they were found in the East in the sixteenth century,

812
00:51:44,119 --> 00:51:46,199
and they were thought to reflect some canons that might

813
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,800
have been destroyed by the Aryans. Because you know, we

814
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:51,800
don't have the acts of the Council of Nicea. We

815
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,920
just have a few. We just have the canons and

816
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,440
then some Syriac documents and other scraps from the historians.

817
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,599
So we have these Arabic canons were also cited to

818
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,320
to say, oh, look at this we have. But I

819
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,119
would say this shows what the fathers of Nicia would

820
00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:14,840
have declared if they had actually believed in the papal supremacy.

821
00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:19,960
I mean, I think, um, yeah, they were quoting one

822
00:52:20,039 --> 00:52:24,639
of these. Yeah, and they date they were made at

823
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:26,840
least five hundred years after the Council of Nicea One

824
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,960
Roman Catholic who looked into these, he said they were

825
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,519
forged after the schism between the East and West. It

826
00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:36,599
looks like they were forged in the East, maybe by

827
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:43,239
like Maronite groups or early like uh maybe Arabic speaking

828
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,199
missionaries of Roman of the pope. But anyway, well we

829
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,280
can I can read one of the canon. There's two

830
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,679
that really promote the papacy. So talking about of the

831
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,159
care and power which a patriarch has over the bishops

832
00:52:57,199 --> 00:52:59,719
and archbishops of his patriarchate and of the primacy of

833
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:04,440
the ship of Rome overall. So let's see here. So

834
00:53:04,679 --> 00:53:06,559
it's saying he holds the seat of Rome, is the

835
00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:08,760
head and prince of all patriarchs, and as much as

836
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,159
he is first, who as was Peter, to whom power

837
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,559
is given overall Christian princes and over all their peoples,

838
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:17,679
as he who is the Vicar of Christ our Lord,

839
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,519
over all the peoples, and over the whole Christian Church,

840
00:53:20,599 --> 00:53:25,760
and whosoever shall contradict this is excommunicated by the Senate. Okay, Yeah,

841
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,159
they try to get the counsel of Nicea this week

842
00:53:29,199 --> 00:53:31,960
to their Yeah, modern conceptions.

843
00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 5: You can see it doesn't match with Nicia, because Nicia

844
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:41,840
as canons that promote actually different jurisdiction. The penalty is

845
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:46,639
still anathematism and not excommunication like see in the old Church,

846
00:53:48,599 --> 00:53:53,360
and Peter doesn't have this central rule, and so these

847
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,880
canon's obviously false. It contradicts the actual concept of Nicea.

848
00:53:57,679 --> 00:54:00,960
But still you would have Roman Catholic apologies. Bo's take, yousef.

849
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,719
I think they didn't brother actively. They used it in

850
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:06,119
one of their videos.

851
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, next right. It was in one of their

852
00:54:09,519 --> 00:54:16,159
videos or audios actually on the Papacy, where they quote

853
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:21,159
the Arabic canons of Nicea and speak of them as

854
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,639
though they're real cans. They don't mention that they're forgeries

855
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,440
and what's funny is, Yeah, what's funny is they actually

856
00:54:28,519 --> 00:54:32,599
quote it from that cheft set of the nice Fathers.

857
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:35,519
I know, it's not actually all of Philip Schafts, but

858
00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:37,320
that thirty eight volumes seut of the Church Fathers. They

859
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:41,760
quote from that book the Seven Ecumenical Councils by Henry Percival,

860
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,320
which I mean in that very book it tells you

861
00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:50,039
that these are authentic. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they

862
00:54:50,079 --> 00:54:53,000
were just looking through and found out something talking about

863
00:54:53,039 --> 00:54:54,079
Peter and they.

864
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,159
Speaker 3: Quoted that lining and making big blunders.

865
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,079
Speaker 6: It's it's like just the introduct into those says that

866
00:55:01,119 --> 00:55:05,400
they're forgeries and they're just given for historical reference. And

867
00:55:05,519 --> 00:55:09,039
then another you know, after being confronted with the forgeries,

868
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,199
some Roman Catholics say, oh, well, you know, even if

869
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,000
they're not authentic, it shows what the East had believed in.

870
00:55:14,679 --> 00:55:18,679
But that's that's not even the case anyway, because it's

871
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,000
they date after the Sism between the East and West,

872
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:27,320
maybe at least five hundred years after Nicea. Yeah, right,

873
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:33,719
So they were defended by multiple Roman Catholics I mentioned,

874
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:40,480
like that Cardinal Aguerre, yeah and others.

875
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, let's cover some other forgeries related to the canons,

876
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,280
as are many, like we have a full list yet,

877
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,360
as there is a full books that wasn't seven other pages,

878
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,400
so we can cover everything. But let's make some interesting

879
00:55:56,440 --> 00:56:04,599
one RETI to the canons. What can we big? Yeah,

880
00:56:04,639 --> 00:56:07,400
maybe interpolation. The sixth Canon is the first concept and

881
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:13,159
I seeah or misquotation of the seventy console, like you know, yeah,

882
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:14,039
a lot of stuff.

883
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, that one is well known with the sixth Canon.

884
00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:22,360
So it's quite sad to see because this came pretty early,

885
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,960
even in the fifth century. Some people at Rome had

886
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:31,920
been tampering with the canons. So that sixth Canon, I

887
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,639
see um, so certain words were added to the beginning

888
00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:39,880
of it, which said the Roman Church has always had

889
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,519
the privacy and they added these words to the beginning

890
00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:46,079
of the canon. And that's not that's not found there

891
00:56:46,119 --> 00:56:48,960
at all. And that's I mean in the Council of

892
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,320
Florence they cited this version of the cannon. And some

893
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,519
have tried to defend it and saying the Greeks took

894
00:56:53,559 --> 00:56:56,159
those words out, But that's not found in the most

895
00:56:56,199 --> 00:57:01,920
authentic manuscripts, and and and there's some good books that

896
00:57:02,199 --> 00:57:06,239
mentioned the manuscript evidence of this specific canon, showing that

897
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,039
these words the Roman Church has always had the primacy

898
00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:11,400
that's not in the original canon.

899
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, you see the Roman Catholic though they will still

900
00:57:14,559 --> 00:57:15,519
quote this all the time.

901
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're not saying, by the way that you know,

902
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:26,719
Rome during its Ordos period was malicious. We just see

903
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,519
that we have this idea of the church, you know,

904
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:33,960
as being an hospital of theopeutic. So oftentimes you will

905
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:38,880
have you know, spiritual disease appearing in one side or

906
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,920
another side of the church and they are being pushed out.

907
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,599
So for example, ply we're not you know, saying that

908
00:57:44,719 --> 00:57:50,800
all popes that does saints and so on, we're malicious.

909
00:57:51,039 --> 00:57:54,800
You know, Actually many popes from it the heresy later recanted.

910
00:57:56,639 --> 00:57:59,000
Just things that you know, sometimes you see such claim

911
00:57:59,079 --> 00:58:04,199
appear a bit before Schism or earlier, isn't that I.

912
00:58:04,239 --> 00:58:07,119
Speaker 6: Mean that is another important topic I didn't bring up

913
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,559
like in the notes for today. But yeah, I think

914
00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:12,440
a lot of these writings attributed to the early popes

915
00:58:12,519 --> 00:58:16,039
like Leo Gelasius or missed Us. A lot of these

916
00:58:16,239 --> 00:58:19,639
I just don't have much faith in the Latin collections.

917
00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:23,360
I really doubt the authenticity, you know, when maybe Ibarra

918
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:28,960
insists with insisting upon us some of the stronger expressions

919
00:58:29,039 --> 00:58:32,840
of these popes on the Peter and so on. I mean,

920
00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:35,880
when we can see different collections, we see there's a

921
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,239
lot of interpolation, at least when it comes to certain

922
00:58:39,719 --> 00:58:43,039
of these subjects like right and Barbara.

923
00:58:43,159 --> 00:58:45,519
Speaker 4: It's ubi has shown that Aborro doesn't have any of

924
00:58:45,559 --> 00:58:48,320
the linguistic skills to be able to make the claims

925
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:49,880
that he does about what's authentic or not.

926
00:58:50,239 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 3: Iborro is just a rehasher.

927
00:58:52,679 --> 00:58:56,679
Speaker 6: So yeah, Ibarra, I notice he had cited a false

928
00:58:56,719 --> 00:59:00,320
writing of Pope Gelasius, which like where Jelasius speaks pretty

929
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:04,119
strongly admittedly on the papacy, but it's actually not it's

930
00:59:04,159 --> 00:59:07,280
not it's admitted to be an authentic by Roman Catholic scholar.

931
00:59:07,599 --> 00:59:08,920
That is one of the points I mentioned. But I

932
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,920
think it goes far worse, except there hasn't been full

933
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,440
research into some of these documents that just haven't been

934
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,320
received much attention.

935
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:23,559
Speaker 5: But we yeah, I would say, maybe, yeah, there are

936
00:59:23,639 --> 00:59:26,960
many many forgeries. An actually Dolinger, you know, we wrote

937
00:59:27,039 --> 00:59:33,559
this book. He said that basically it's going to die

938
00:59:33,639 --> 00:59:35,880
too early. It is just a tip of the icebag

939
00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:40,679
on some quotes, you know, he studied them and he

940
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,719
said that you have like layers and layers and layers

941
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:49,280
and layers of qualification. Many many quotes are are that

942
00:59:50,559 --> 00:59:53,280
over the centuries you have a lot of forgeries, a

943
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,320
lot of interpolation. Some works are destroyed because of this,

944
00:59:57,519 --> 01:00:01,000
Like there are many works that that I've lost, you know,

945
01:00:01,159 --> 01:00:05,599
their original intention permanently because of this.

946
01:00:06,159 --> 01:00:10,519
Speaker 6: So I just want to put a counterpoint. Just I mean,

947
01:00:10,599 --> 01:00:13,840
we we do know the early Church fairly reliably. It's

948
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,360
it's that the extent of the forgeries isn't enough to

949
01:00:17,519 --> 01:00:20,519
overturn like what we know of the early Church. But

950
01:00:20,679 --> 01:00:25,800
it's it is visible when we do see it, but

951
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:31,960
it doesn't minimize the the historical credibility that we have

952
01:00:32,199 --> 01:00:33,480
for for the early Church.

953
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:38,239
Speaker 5: Right right, it's especially after the schism, and it's it's

954
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,840
in documents that were still in the West. So oftentimes

955
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,239
when he still has the originally in the East, you

956
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,239
know that we're still in different patriarch It's you will

957
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,159
still see the same words, but if it's stalled in

958
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:50,920
the West, you will have some troubles, But it doesn't

959
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,800
discredite orthodoxis obviously.

960
01:00:54,559 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean there's a lot of documents, like preserved

961
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,760
the manuscripts of writings that are pretty strong against the

962
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,480
post open those have been faithfully preserved through the Middle

963
01:01:02,519 --> 01:01:05,400
Ages and we have them today. So there wasn't I mean,

964
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,760
there was a it was sufficient.

965
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:09,679
Speaker 3: It's not.

966
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:11,519
Speaker 5: It's not taking over his entire thing.

967
01:01:11,679 --> 01:01:13,039
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, exactly, that's right.

968
01:01:14,239 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 3: And we're also dealing with.

969
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,199
Speaker 4: Documents and issues that Roman self, the Vatican and its

970
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:24,000
whole you know, apparatus and scholarship no longer accepts or

971
01:01:24,039 --> 01:01:24,719
would appeal to.

972
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, I this reminds me of a good quote

973
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:37,480
by Joseph Overbeck. He wrote, he was a convert to Orthodoxy.

974
01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 3: He was a.

975
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 6: He was in England in the eighteen hundreds or and

976
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,320
he was full in any language. He wrote, history was

977
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,800
always the weak point of the Roman Catholics, and Rome

978
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,960
by falsifying it has sealed her own doom. Well short quote,

979
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,800
oh and then GeTe. You know, he has a nice

980
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:01,519
passage where he talks about the same thing. Oh, I

981
01:02:01,559 --> 01:02:07,920
don't have it in front of me though, Yeah, oh yeah,

982
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,360
here it is. The Orthodox Church is the heir of

983
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,920
the Early Church, and a faithful heir, having neither added

984
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,199
nor changed the doctrines of the faith. For this reason,

985
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,320
she is the true Apostolic Church of Christ.

986
01:02:21,599 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 5: So okay, Yeah, and by the way, get to get

987
01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:30,599
a didn't only look into Ortholoxy also had looks into

988
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:36,400
the Armenian Church when he first you know, left room,

989
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:41,519
and his research showed him that Orthodoxy clearly was the

990
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:51,360
heir to the to the early Church. Yeah, should be

991
01:02:52,679 --> 01:02:53,440
in the canons.

992
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:58,719
Speaker 6: Yeah for the I mean the other big thing with

993
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,199
the Nicene counts. So we have the interpolation into the

994
01:03:02,239 --> 01:03:04,920
sixth Canon, we have the Arabic Canons of Nicia. And

995
01:03:05,159 --> 01:03:10,000
another big problem was the misattribution of the canons of

996
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:14,719
the Council of Sartoka to the Nicene Council. And those

997
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:18,360
canons of Sartika themselves, at least some of them, have

998
01:03:18,559 --> 01:03:25,199
been doubted about their authenticity, but the scholarly consensus seems

999
01:03:25,199 --> 01:03:29,360
to be that well is that they are authentic, but

1000
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,719
that might still be not certain. But anyway, what we

1001
01:03:34,079 --> 01:03:38,199
have is that many Roman Catholics said that those canons

1002
01:03:38,239 --> 01:03:40,800
from Sartica, the one speaking about appeals to the Pope,

1003
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,280
that those were actually from Nicea, and that was an

1004
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,440
attempt to try and like, you know, make these canons

1005
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:51,400
from an ecumenical council and to increase the prestigia from

1006
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:54,719
even though those very canons are actually quite against the

1007
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,000
idea of a divine Roman primacy. It's a very limited

1008
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:02,239
level of appeals that are given to the pope, and

1009
01:04:02,599 --> 01:04:05,000
the same or more was given in the ninth Canon

1010
01:04:05,159 --> 01:04:10,639
of Calcidon to the pope to the patriarch of Constantinople.

1011
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,519
So yeah, I don't see much evidence for that.

1012
01:04:15,119 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, you talk about so it's it's about Rome being

1013
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:21,079
a court of appeal. It's it's a bit lower than

1014
01:04:21,119 --> 01:04:24,199
a court of appeal. It's it's okay, it's it's linked

1015
01:04:24,239 --> 01:04:28,559
to supremacy in honor. But in order to properly to say,

1016
01:04:28,719 --> 01:04:30,599
you know, it's from nick medical councils, they had to

1017
01:04:31,039 --> 01:04:33,760
try to smash the Canons of Sadika into the kind

1018
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:34,400
of they see you.

1019
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, the I do want to also, I know we've

1020
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:41,000
moved on past us, but I do want to stress

1021
01:04:41,079 --> 01:04:44,320
because this is very important book for the Trads and

1022
01:04:44,519 --> 01:04:47,639
it was normative for centuries after Trent. You know, the

1023
01:04:47,719 --> 01:04:51,039
Catechism of the Council Trent. As you note here cites

1024
01:04:51,119 --> 01:04:54,000
the pseudo isidor into crudles not just once, but eleven

1025
01:04:54,119 --> 01:04:57,920
times at least. And that's very important because if you

1026
01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:04,679
understand Roman cal click magisterial dogma, uh, catechisms, when they're

1027
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:08,039
approved by the Roman Sea for the entire church, they

1028
01:05:08,079 --> 01:05:12,400
actually take on the status of universal ordinary magistarium, so

1029
01:05:12,519 --> 01:05:15,559
that the catechism by definition cannot be erroneous.

1030
01:05:15,639 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 3: It cannot have errors.

1031
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 4: There might be something that like a typo or something

1032
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,800
like that, but it can't contain dogmatic errors. And here

1033
01:05:22,119 --> 01:05:24,679
we're talking about the foundation of the whole system, which

1034
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,119
is the papacy, and the Catechism of Trent has eleven

1035
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,960
at least citations of the forged Azidori into credles.

1036
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 3: I mean, this is ridiculous.

1037
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 4: So anyway, I wanted to stress that because if you're

1038
01:05:36,519 --> 01:05:38,719
if you're a triad, then you know the importance of

1039
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:40,199
the Catechism of Trent.

1040
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:46,599
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, we could go over that Catechism of Trent.

1041
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:50,400
I was looking at that in the last few weeks. Yeah,

1042
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,559
so they also cite those pseudo zidoorantecredles. Again, they found

1043
01:05:54,559 --> 01:06:01,760
their way into a lot of apologetic materials site Pope's Clement,

1044
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:08,000
the first Anacletus, Eusebius urban the first Fabian, and melchiadis.

1045
01:06:09,039 --> 01:06:12,239
So yeah. You know, one example, like I had quoted earlier,

1046
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,599
it says on the primacy of the supreme pontiff see

1047
01:06:14,599 --> 01:06:18,920
the third Epistle of Anaclidus, And that's an authentic document.

1048
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,559
This pope, Anaclius is supposed to have lived around the

1049
01:06:22,639 --> 01:06:28,400
year eighty eight or eighty one. Eighty. Yeah. We do

1050
01:06:28,559 --> 01:06:32,800
have another false quotation of Saint Cyril in the Catechism

1051
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:39,719
of Trent. This one is actually not as widely admitted

1052
01:06:39,719 --> 01:06:43,400
as a fortress. I've still seen it online and around

1053
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:49,719
the internet. So it's saying, all right, so page three

1054
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:54,239
nineteen of the Dublin eighteen twenty nine English translation, it's saying,

1055
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:59,199
superior to all these patriarchs is the sovereign pontiff whom Cyril,

1056
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,760
Archbishop of Alexandria denominated in the Council of Ephesus. Quote

1057
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:06,800
the father and patriarch of the whole world end quote.

1058
01:07:07,119 --> 01:07:11,920
So and it and from the Roman Catechism. You know,

1059
01:07:12,079 --> 01:07:19,400
this became itself spread and re quoted elsewhere. And I'd

1060
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,199
seen it even even in the early nineteen hundreds, in

1061
01:07:22,239 --> 01:07:25,840
the book called History of Dogmas. This is side. I mean,

1062
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,119
many people just weren't careful. They just put their trust

1063
01:07:29,199 --> 01:07:32,519
in the Roman Catechism. Where this catechism right, even though

1064
01:07:32,559 --> 01:07:37,360
it was shown, it's admitted also by scholars that this

1065
01:07:37,559 --> 01:07:41,920
is Yeah. The German Roman Catholic scholar Joannas Koisten, he says,

1066
01:07:42,199 --> 01:07:46,440
the eleventh holem homily is nothing more than the fourth

1067
01:07:46,519 --> 01:07:49,039
we touched and enlarged between the seventh and the ninth century,

1068
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:55,920
as a Erhard has already shown. So yeah, and a

1069
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,159
lot of these forgeries. Sometimes what we'll have is the

1070
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:02,119
author is that Roman Catholic accused the Orthodox of of

1071
01:08:03,199 --> 01:08:06,360
taking out these words of Cyril, of taking them out

1072
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,559
from the manuscripts, or of committing forgeries themselves. But those

1073
01:08:10,599 --> 01:08:15,920
are also incorrect, false accusations against us.

1074
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 3: Right, exactly, all right, So where did you want to

1075
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:24,039
go next?

1076
01:08:24,199 --> 01:08:29,560
Speaker 4: What's the next We did Arabic Canons of Niceah, what's

1077
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,119
the next big forgery?

1078
01:08:31,119 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 3: You want to hit on?

1079
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 5: Here?

1080
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:34,640
Speaker 3: Testament of Joseph I we did that.

1081
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:46,399
Speaker 6: Oh, okay, we can. Well, one interesting thing is cans

1082
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:51,039
the canons? Okay, so one important thing, you know, I

1083
01:08:51,119 --> 01:08:53,479
had done a lot of research into the Council of Trullo.

1084
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:58,000
This is this is a really important council that is

1085
01:08:58,159 --> 01:09:02,000
almost completely ignored but a Roman Catholic apologists, and I've

1086
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:06,840
seen a lot of errors in their presentation of what

1087
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:09,680
happened there and how it was approved by the church.

1088
01:09:10,279 --> 01:09:12,439
But yeah, one of the case, so maybe the most

1089
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,840
important to our purposes here is the thirty sixth Canon

1090
01:09:16,039 --> 01:09:20,279
of Trulla, which which says it's really important. I'll quote

1091
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:23,600
it here. It confirms the twenty eighth Canon of Calcidon

1092
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:29,439
exactly exactly. Bishop of Rome didn't like. Roman Catholics will

1093
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:31,239
tell you it was rejected by the church, but here

1094
01:09:31,319 --> 01:09:38,119
we have the sixth documentical council specifically approving it. So yeah,

1095
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:39,159
and by the way, and.

1096
01:09:39,279 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 4: By the way, and I see it too accepts Trollo.

1097
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:45,239
And my understanding is that the Roman Church, when it

1098
01:09:45,359 --> 01:09:49,319
accepted and I see it too, initially accepted even Trollo

1099
01:09:50,159 --> 01:09:52,920
and the canons that deal with marriage, and then within

1100
01:09:53,039 --> 01:09:56,079
a few generations or maybe even a few popes then

1101
01:09:56,159 --> 01:09:57,159
reverse this decision.

1102
01:09:57,199 --> 01:09:58,039
Speaker 3: That's my understanding.

1103
01:09:59,199 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that that's fair. Yeah, that that's about it.

1104
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:07,119
It's sometimes hard to follow what but for sure at

1105
01:10:07,159 --> 01:10:10,239
the council, and I see it the pope two different

1106
01:10:10,279 --> 01:10:13,840
popes specifically approved that Council of Trillo and said.

1107
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:15,640
Speaker 3: It's canons exactly.

1108
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:23,079
Speaker 6: Pope's Gregory the second and then Adrian the first. And

1109
01:10:23,359 --> 01:10:27,359
and I did quote that because yeah, Gregory calls its

1110
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:30,960
canons holy canons, and then Adrian describes its canons to

1111
01:10:31,039 --> 01:10:34,560
the sixth Ecumenical Council. Because the main reason it was

1112
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:38,960
cited is because of the eighty second Canon of Trillo,

1113
01:10:39,039 --> 01:10:42,960
which which talks about the icons. How it's right, how

1114
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:45,000
about in an icon, So that was used by all

1115
01:10:45,039 --> 01:10:46,880
the iconoclasses, and they all said, this is from the

1116
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,800
sixth Ecumenical Council. So there we have like a very

1117
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:52,239
widespread acceptance.

1118
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 5: And by the way, this canon is not being followed

1119
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,960
by Room because this canon talks about see the facts

1120
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,239
that we should represent Christ as a human, which that

1121
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:05,119
you know, represent Christ only as a sheep, because it

1122
01:11:05,279 --> 01:11:10,439
implies symbolism, you know that it's a symbolic sheep. Then

1123
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:12,439
today you can find the pope having a big cross

1124
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:16,840
with just a sheep on it, which is you know, yes.

1125
01:11:17,079 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, they depart Yeah, this is also the departure from

1126
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:23,640
the canonical norms for the liturgy. This is why the

1127
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:27,720
West goes in the direction of statuary so ironically, even

1128
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:29,920
though they initially accepted this, and by the way, they should.

1129
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:32,800
I always bring this up, but it seems lost on

1130
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:36,199
a lot of people, like they should also accept the sonoticon,

1131
01:11:36,399 --> 01:11:39,520
and because that's the liturgical framework that comes out of

1132
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:42,399
the Seventh Synod. I mean, I don't somebody should. I'm

1133
01:11:42,399 --> 01:11:45,319
sure somebody knows. I don't actually know why Rome doesn't

1134
01:11:45,359 --> 01:11:49,279
accept the synoticon. I mean, it's just the summation of

1135
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,239
you know, the anathemas and the views of the Seventh Council.

1136
01:11:52,359 --> 01:11:54,439
So if you do accept the Seventh Council, I don't

1137
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:56,920
know why you wouldn't accept the snoticon. But you know,

1138
01:11:57,039 --> 01:12:02,319
it actually condemns Plato, it condemns Aristotle, condemns Hellenism pretty extensively.

1139
01:12:02,399 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 3: In many places, we sing it, you.

1140
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 4: Know, if you if you've seen the full the full

1141
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:10,079
Snoticon or recite it on Sunday Orthodoxy.

1142
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 6: Uh.

1143
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 4: And it also summarizes the appropriate you know, the approach

1144
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:16,880
to icons as well. But this is where you start

1145
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,399
to see departure, uh in the West. And I'm not

1146
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:21,439
saying everybody in the West is lost because of this.

1147
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:26,199
These are just elements that creep in that suggest a

1148
01:12:26,319 --> 01:12:28,520
departure in terms of faith.

1149
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 2: Uh.

1150
01:12:29,359 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 4: Again, they're not all heretics yet, but it's at the

1151
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:35,000
beginning of a departure, and the departure is seen in

1152
01:12:35,319 --> 01:12:37,680
the changes in the liturgy, is what I'm trying to say.

1153
01:12:39,039 --> 01:12:39,239
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1154
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'm not sure that the fact that in

1155
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:46,199
those canons that you know, save the icons, you know,

1156
01:12:46,319 --> 01:12:48,439
saved this or macanopolism in the the canon of the

1157
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:51,760
sixth consoles that you know made the same console right

1158
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:55,720
more authorted, it's telling that Rome you know, which claims

1159
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:58,680
your authority for the console, just doesn't follow it exactly.

1160
01:12:59,399 --> 01:13:02,319
Speaker 6: Yeah. I would like to quote this thirty sixth canon

1161
01:13:02,359 --> 01:13:05,119
because it's I would say, it's really important. It says

1162
01:13:06,199 --> 01:13:09,119
this is from the sixth Documental Council in Trilo, So,

1163
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:12,560
renewing the enactments by the one hundred and fifty fathers

1164
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,720
assembled that the God protected and Imperial city and those

1165
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,079
of the six hundred and thirty who met at Chalcidon,

1166
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:21,880
we decree that the Senate of Constantinople shall have equal

1167
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,520
privileges with the Sea of Old Rome, and shall be

1168
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,079
highly regarded in ecclesiastical matters as that is, and shall

1169
01:13:28,119 --> 01:13:31,399
be second after it, after Constantinople shall be ranked the

1170
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:35,079
Sea of Alexandria, then of Antioch, and afterwards the Sea

1171
01:13:35,079 --> 01:13:40,680
of Jerusalem. So that's the canon's It's interesting in Gracian's

1172
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:44,439
edition the eleventh century Cannons, he inserts the word not

1173
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:48,239
saying the sea of constant Nople shall is not to

1174
01:13:48,319 --> 01:13:52,039
be as highly regarded in ecclesiastical matters, and then he

1175
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:56,479
used the word similar privileges instead of equal privileges. But

1176
01:13:57,199 --> 01:14:00,039
it's still worth no, I mean, still in evidence, I

1177
01:14:00,119 --> 01:14:02,840
was accepted, at least in the West that this canon

1178
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:08,800
did enter their collections and then confirm, if I might

1179
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:12,520
follow up, from the Seventh Council did confirm these canons

1180
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:16,399
as coming from the sixth Council. So if the Seventh

1181
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:18,720
Council was wrong about this, then I mean, then we

1182
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:24,560
don't have any certainty of what's acumenical, because okay, I

1183
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,279
would like to read Tarasius's he was the patriarch of

1184
01:14:27,359 --> 01:14:33,359
Constantinople and was one of the presidents at the second Council,

1185
01:14:33,359 --> 01:14:36,520
and I see it or the seventh Council so he says,

1186
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,680
some persons laboring under the malady of ignorance, have taken

1187
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:42,560
the fence at these canons, and ask are these really

1188
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:46,279
the canons of the sixth Council. Let all such know therefore,

1189
01:14:46,399 --> 01:14:49,920
that the sixth Holy Council was assembled under Constantine against

1190
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:52,920
those who maintained the One Will and opinion in Christ,

1191
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:56,560
and that after these fathers had anathematized the heretics and

1192
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:00,079
clearly set forth the Orthodox faith, they returned home. In

1193
01:15:00,159 --> 01:15:03,000
the fourteenth year of Constantine. Four or five years after

1194
01:15:03,079 --> 01:15:05,920
that event, the same fathers were again assembled by Justinian,

1195
01:15:06,319 --> 01:15:09,880
the son of Constantine, that's Justinian the second, who then

1196
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:12,560
laid down the above mentioned canons. Let no one have

1197
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:15,600
any scruple about them, since the same fathers who subscribed

1198
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,199
under Constantine were the very same who subscribed in this

1199
01:15:18,399 --> 01:15:21,159
role which you see here under Justinian, as is evident

1200
01:15:21,239 --> 01:15:23,920
from the exact similarity of the handwriting. And it was

1201
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,000
but right that they who had presented to the world

1202
01:15:26,039 --> 01:15:32,119
in ecumenical council should also enact ecclesiastical canons. And the

1203
01:15:32,199 --> 01:15:36,479
Holy Council replied approvingly to what he said. And I

1204
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:39,079
mean this council in trueau is really important because the

1205
01:15:39,199 --> 01:15:44,520
Roman Catholic historians, they're conciliar historians. They say, this is

1206
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,760
a senate of the devil. It's a diabolic senator to

1207
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:51,479
a pseudo synod, a malignant convention.

1208
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:54,359
Speaker 3: How dumb. That's crazy?

1209
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:58,840
Speaker 4: And in your note where are you in your notes

1210
01:15:59,399 --> 01:15:59,920
at this point?

1211
01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 3: Thirteen fourteen?

1212
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 6: I guess this would be five, I think? But did

1213
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,960
I reorganize these? I hope this is the latest version

1214
01:16:12,199 --> 01:16:14,760
the Gracian's edition of the thirty six canon.

1215
01:16:15,039 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I was way ahead of you, My bad.

1216
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:22,359
Speaker 6: But we've been jumping around, I think. But yeah, so

1217
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,920
we could go on to several other topic.

1218
01:16:29,319 --> 01:16:31,680
Speaker 3: Did you cite zero point six?

1219
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:31,920
Speaker 5: There?

1220
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:38,159
Speaker 3: Didn't you mention this convert the Anglican convert or not?

1221
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:41,720
Speaker 6: Oh? Oh no, I didn't say that. Yeah, this is

1222
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,479
also important. It's interesting. I just came across it this week.

1223
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:47,359
I was reading this book Thomas William Allies. He wrote

1224
01:16:47,359 --> 01:16:52,000
a great book actually called It's about the Sysm of

1225
01:16:52,199 --> 01:16:56,479
the Anglican Church, but he really defends orthodoxy. It's a

1226
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,399
great book against the papacy. But he ended up converting

1227
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,840
to Roman because Thoism, which is really interesting. Later on

1228
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:04,960
in life, but that was mostly because of the problems

1229
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:07,039
the Church of England had in the middle of the

1230
01:17:07,119 --> 01:17:12,359
nineteenth century, because of certain political and ecclesiastical decisions he

1231
01:17:12,399 --> 01:17:15,880
didn't like and which kind of showed that it wasn't

1232
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:20,680
it wasn't very you know, it didn't meet kind of

1233
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:23,640
the way the true Church should be acting, you know,

1234
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:27,720
enforced by political considerations. But anyway, he wrote a couple

1235
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:31,279
of books such as The Sea of Peters, The Rock

1236
01:17:31,399 --> 01:17:33,479
of the Church, Rocky Union, and I mean I looked

1237
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:35,479
into some of his references. He makes a lot of

1238
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:40,479
these same errors, Like he refers to the Latin versions

1239
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:44,000
of the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon. Yeah, that's

1240
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:46,600
another big issue. I didn't mention here because it requires

1241
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:50,640
more of a like scholarly type examination of manuscripts. But

1242
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:55,079
when you look at Latin versus Greek editions of texts,

1243
01:17:55,119 --> 01:17:57,800
you know, letters, councils, we often find that the Latin

1244
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:01,199
version was interpolated in certain points having to do with

1245
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,640
the papacy. I mean, it's to such an extreme degree

1246
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:07,600
that the Roman Catholics retort that the Greeks actually removed

1247
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:11,159
some of these testimonies. But I mean the at least

1248
01:18:11,159 --> 01:18:14,279
in the case of CalCon, we have an authentic, earlier

1249
01:18:14,399 --> 01:18:20,119
Latin translation that contradicts the interpolated Latin edition. And that

1250
01:18:20,319 --> 01:18:23,119
was I think one of the points I'd mentioned. But yeah,

1251
01:18:23,159 --> 01:18:28,479
as for Thomas William Allies, he yeah, here's a quote

1252
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:32,279
from him. I'll just quote him and then we'll see

1253
01:18:32,319 --> 01:18:36,760
what the actual council says. So he says, this Seventh

1254
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,359
Council rejecting a former great council of some hundred bishops

1255
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:44,479
held thirty years before at Constantinople from being general. That's

1256
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:49,039
the Iconoclass council says, quote, how was it great and universal?

1257
01:18:49,159 --> 01:18:51,600
For it had not the countenance of the Roman Pope

1258
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:54,399
of that time, nor of the bishops who are about him,

1259
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:57,960
nor by his legates, nor by an encyclical letter of

1260
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:04,119
the Pope, as the law of councils requires. But oh, then,

1261
01:19:04,199 --> 01:19:06,359
so I was interested, because it's a pretty strong claim

1262
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:09,760
to say this is what the Seventh Council said. But

1263
01:19:10,359 --> 01:19:12,720
I went and found I found the place he referenced

1264
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:16,560
in Mancy, which is Volume thirteen, page two oh seven,

1265
01:19:17,039 --> 01:19:20,840
and I look there and the true passage in the

1266
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:22,840
Acts of the Council. We do have a translation from

1267
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:26,840
Joseph Mendem of those acts, it says, again, how could

1268
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:30,359
that be great or acumenical which the presidents of other

1269
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:33,840
churches have never received or assented to, but which, on

1270
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:36,640
the contrary, they have anathematized. It had not as its

1271
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:39,399
fellow helper the then Pope of Rome or his conclave.

1272
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:43,159
Neither was it authorized by his legate nor by encyclical

1273
01:19:43,199 --> 01:19:46,399
from him, as the custom is in councils. Neither do

1274
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:49,439
we find that the patriarchs of the East of Antioch,

1275
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:52,640
Alexandria and the Holy City did at all consent there too,

1276
01:19:53,119 --> 01:19:56,439
nor any of their great doctors or high priests. So

1277
01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:00,640
it's quite it's it's not faced, pretty honest, I think

1278
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:03,560
to just end the quote when it's just talking about

1279
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:05,439
bits of a Roman not mentioned that all these other

1280
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:10,920
patriarchates were required. We're considered important components, you know, for ecumenicity, right,

1281
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:13,880
all right, So let's.

1282
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:15,119
Speaker 3: Let's move through some of these.

1283
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 4: We got more of these to get through here, So ye,

1284
01:20:18,239 --> 01:20:19,960
what are the more We'll pick out some of the

1285
01:20:20,039 --> 01:20:21,960
more important ones as we move on here.

1286
01:20:23,039 --> 01:20:26,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we've covered many, many canons and things

1287
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:32,119
between two consoles. Everything's on the book. Anyway, I think

1288
01:20:32,159 --> 01:20:37,359
we should move on to some patristic forgeries in the

1289
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:44,399
album's finish and the zero point twenty twenty seven and

1290
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:44,960
twenty eight.

1291
01:20:45,399 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 4: We definitely, we definitely want to hit fifteen because of

1292
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:50,840
Francis to Sale. I mean, he you know, has one

1293
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:55,560
of the most popular apologetic works, calvin Controversy, which was

1294
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,119
written Calvinists, and I've actually I used to give that

1295
01:20:58,159 --> 01:20:59,560
book out when I was a traed Catholic.

1296
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:05,640
Speaker 6: So oh yeah, there's yeah, Catholic Controversy. It's there are

1297
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:09,520
a few more issues I found in that book besides yeah,

1298
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:13,159
besides what I mentioned. Yeah, we could go definitely go

1299
01:21:13,239 --> 01:21:20,119
over that. Let's see. So yeah, Francis the sales, so

1300
01:21:20,399 --> 01:21:23,159
he does make a lot of quite a few errors

1301
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:24,640
Catholic Controversy.

1302
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:28,840
Speaker 3: Let me, uh, that's just my famous apologetic book.

1303
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:31,199
Speaker 4: So I don't recall at the top of my head

1304
01:21:31,279 --> 01:21:35,239
if he how many papal documentsy sites in the text.

1305
01:21:35,279 --> 01:21:37,039
I mean, I know he does because he argues for

1306
01:21:37,199 --> 01:21:40,319
you know, kind of the key points against the Protestants

1307
01:21:40,319 --> 01:21:42,319
of particularly the Calvinists in that book. So he is

1308
01:21:42,399 --> 01:21:44,319
going to be arguing for the premiacy of the Pope Rome.

1309
01:21:44,399 --> 01:21:47,039
So I don't know all the time my head what

1310
01:21:47,199 --> 01:21:49,640
documentcy sites, but I feel like, you know, that's that's

1311
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:51,800
his most famous, I think work, other than some of

1312
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,640
his more you know, practical writings.

1313
01:21:55,239 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 6: That he did. Yeah, okay, I I do have my

1314
01:21:58,960 --> 01:21:59,439
notes on that.

1315
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 5: I just skimmed through it.

1316
01:22:02,319 --> 01:22:06,119
Speaker 6: So, okay, Francis The Sales to Catholic Controversy was published

1317
01:22:06,159 --> 01:22:10,079
London eighteen eighty six. And and you know, all old

1318
01:22:10,119 --> 01:22:14,359
books are available digitized online. Almost everything before nineteen twenty

1319
01:22:14,399 --> 01:22:16,119
three is in the public domain, so that makes it

1320
01:22:16,199 --> 01:22:19,239
great for anyone with internet access. You can find these

1321
01:22:19,319 --> 01:22:21,319
yourself and verify these. You don't have to go to

1322
01:22:21,399 --> 01:22:24,800
a public library or university anyway. Yeah, his book on

1323
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:29,119
papal authority, so he cites the spurious letter of Saint

1324
01:22:29,159 --> 01:22:32,479
Clement to Saint James, the Lord's brother. On page two

1325
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:36,239
hundred and eighty he ascribes the life. I'm just listening

1326
01:22:36,279 --> 01:22:38,079
them off when I made my notes. He ascribed the

1327
01:22:38,159 --> 01:22:43,439
life of Clement to Pope Damasis. That's the supposed author

1328
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:46,439
of the Liber pontificalis it wasn't him. He also believed

1329
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:48,920
there were more than more than twenty nice seen cannons.

1330
01:22:49,239 --> 01:22:52,119
He cites a spirious athenation letter to Pope Felix the

1331
01:22:52,199 --> 01:22:55,800
second Well, this letter, I'll quote it here. It's saying,

1332
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:01,439
Francis the Sales Rights that in the Council of Nicia

1333
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:03,960
had been determined that it was not lawful to celebrate

1334
01:23:04,079 --> 01:23:07,039
any council without the consent of the Holy See of Rome,

1335
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:09,319
but that the canons which had been made to that

1336
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:12,880
effect had been burnt by the Aryan heretics. So this

1337
01:23:13,039 --> 01:23:15,199
is where you kind of get that background to the

1338
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:17,960
Arabic Cans of Nicia. Maybe that's what prompted them, like, oh,

1339
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:21,720
maybe these cans were burned, so these were the real

1340
01:23:22,039 --> 01:23:25,319
But no, we have sufficient testament. There's only twenty canons

1341
01:23:26,079 --> 01:23:30,680
and half of of the Roman Catholic Council historian he

1342
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:35,880
proves that, okay, he cites h He also says that

1343
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:38,399
no other bishop than the pope was called successor of

1344
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:43,760
Peter or head of the Church. But I mean that's

1345
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:47,199
not true, because I found John Chrisosen speaks of Saint

1346
01:23:47,279 --> 01:23:50,640
Ignatius of Antioch as a successor of Peter in Antioch,

1347
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:53,319
and then Athanasius is also called head of the church

1348
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:53,840
in an.

1349
01:23:53,840 --> 01:24:00,720
Speaker 5: Honors as a full patristic collection, calling other fathers successor

1350
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:03,319
of Peter, and calling all the bishops successor of Peter.

1351
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:06,000
I just notes that front the sell fren seas of

1352
01:24:06,079 --> 01:24:10,399
Sales as you call him, Uh is also a doctor

1353
01:24:10,399 --> 01:24:13,199
of the church, as a third doctor of the church.

1354
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:18,920
In this one hour, is that we see profusely accurting forgeries.

1355
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 6: M yeah. He cites this twice the pseudo Isidorian letter

1356
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:29,039
of Anacletus, although the first citation is actually from the

1357
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:32,960
letter of Cirsius and but taken out of context, cites

1358
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:37,119
the spirit uh spirrious pseudo Isidorian degree of Marcellus. The

1359
01:24:37,159 --> 01:24:40,880
spirrious synt of Sinusa is all on page two ninety one,

1360
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:44,720
a Spirit's letter to Pope damass He misrepresents the Council

1361
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:48,359
of Carthage, which was by Saint Cyprian against the Bishop

1362
01:24:48,399 --> 01:24:51,119
of Bishops. He's saying that that wasn't relevant to Rome,

1363
01:24:51,199 --> 01:24:55,159
even though the context is clearly against Rome. And then

1364
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:58,119
and then he says no one else was called the

1365
01:24:58,199 --> 01:25:01,359
universal Pope other than the Bishop up of Rome, and

1366
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:04,720
that's not true since other people that take that title,

1367
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:08,680
like the heretic Diascorus. He also claimed, you know, he

1368
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:12,800
used that title like of acumenical Father or universal public.

1369
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:17,159
He cites the spirioud letter of Saint Ignatius to certain

1370
01:25:17,279 --> 01:25:20,560
Mary on page two ninety four, and then he references

1371
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:23,920
to apocryphal epistles by Saint Marshall page seventy nine and

1372
01:25:24,159 --> 01:25:26,279
page one seventy nine, So that those are the notes

1373
01:25:26,319 --> 01:25:31,039
I made of his book. And there's any other stuff

1374
01:25:31,079 --> 01:25:34,279
that aren't like outright forgeries, but just you know, bad

1375
01:25:34,399 --> 01:25:36,560
arguments that take more time to get into.

1376
01:25:41,039 --> 01:25:45,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe some other patristic quotes. So it takes with

1377
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:47,800
a variation of Cyprince the unitat That would be great

1378
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:52,039
because that's something that comes up oftentimes. Su Saint Cyprin

1379
01:25:52,199 --> 01:25:54,720
is very famous for saying also that the church there

1380
01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:58,840
is no salvation. Roman Catholic people who see whose scientists

1381
01:25:59,399 --> 01:26:04,159
often forget that there's no proof that in Cyprin actually

1382
01:26:05,359 --> 01:26:08,279
reconciled with the Church of Rome, so he might have

1383
01:26:08,399 --> 01:26:11,359
died in schism be from So in this context seems

1384
01:26:11,399 --> 01:26:14,119
saying that there is no salvation outside the church means

1385
01:26:14,159 --> 01:26:18,720
that he doesn't think of the church as being centralized

1386
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:23,239
in Rome specifically. But some of his texts are the

1387
01:26:23,359 --> 01:26:26,720
one that has the more variation, and that probably was

1388
01:26:27,159 --> 01:26:33,960
the most subjected to to to forgeries over these centuries.

1389
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:39,439
And Dullinger goes it goes a long way about this

1390
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:42,920
in his book on Rome. Maybe you have something to

1391
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:46,039
add on the variation in cyprin the United.

1392
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:52,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, that is a complicated thing they discussed since this

1393
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:54,920
is actually one where Roman Catholics have sort of like

1394
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:57,960
thought back if you will, and like try to defend

1395
01:26:58,439 --> 01:27:02,880
the authenticity of the very the variations by saying that

1396
01:27:02,960 --> 01:27:07,039
Cyprian wrote two editions of this of his book, with

1397
01:27:07,199 --> 01:27:10,279
some containing all these passages about how you need to

1398
01:27:10,319 --> 01:27:12,840
be in commune with the See of Peter and things

1399
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:16,239
like that. But they can't decide which edition you wrote first.

1400
01:27:16,359 --> 01:27:18,920
Some say there's a third edition. It's it's kind of

1401
01:27:19,319 --> 01:27:23,239
complicated to follow. But I would just recommend read to

1402
01:27:23,319 --> 01:27:27,520
read Benson's He's an Anglican scholar, Edward Wry Benson's book

1403
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:32,079
on Cyprian eighteen ninety seven. He summarized in about thirty

1404
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:35,880
pages the manuscript evidence. I mean, all the best manuscripts

1405
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:41,600
don't contain these passages. Okay, some we see certain passages

1406
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:45,399
saying about like does he who deserts the sea if

1407
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:50,239
Peter deserts the Church of Christ, and that's that's not

1408
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:56,199
that's only found in this what's called the interpolated version

1409
01:27:56,319 --> 01:28:00,800
or the patrine text of Cyprian's Tat, which is all

1410
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:03,279
about the unity of the Church, and it's all perfectly

1411
01:28:03,319 --> 01:28:07,119
in harmony with orthodox ecclesiology. About you have these bishops

1412
01:28:07,159 --> 01:28:10,840
and they form a harmony. There isn't like he had

1413
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:14,079
so many occasions to mention a monarch of the church,

1414
01:28:14,159 --> 01:28:15,840
but there isn't one.

1415
01:28:17,119 --> 01:28:19,600
Speaker 4: Right because it was always there. And it was also

1416
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:21,680
never there because it was in seed form and it

1417
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:22,239
had to grow.

1418
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:22,640
Speaker 5: Right.

1419
01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 3: This is a typically stupid argument.

1420
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:28,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's an acorn that you know, grow into a

1421
01:28:28,479 --> 01:28:34,359
banana tree. Yeah, I mean, you know, even if it devolved,

1422
01:28:34,359 --> 01:28:37,319
it absolutely doesn't show. It's the same some fruits, And

1423
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:37,920
like T. J.

1424
01:28:38,119 --> 01:28:39,840
Speaker 3: Kirk, we know what they like to do with the

1425
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:45,800
bananas that they have in Rome. So so let's see

1426
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:47,560
what's the next one. Let's move on. So we're going

1427
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:50,560
to get through some more of these. Here's the next.

1428
01:28:52,119 --> 01:28:53,680
Speaker 5: Let's let's go in Augustine.

1429
01:28:54,359 --> 01:28:59,039
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, yeah, this one, it's kind of an older

1430
01:28:59,079 --> 01:29:02,399
one by still seeing it around. It's his popular quotation

1431
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:07,720
Roma lokey to est causa finita est so translated as

1432
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:12,079
Roma spoken the cause is finished or and that's that's

1433
01:29:12,159 --> 01:29:16,439
not actually what Augustine says, and it but what Roman

1434
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:20,600
Catholics have since tried to do is say it is

1435
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:24,159
actually a correct summary of what he was saying, even

1436
01:29:24,199 --> 01:29:30,000
though he mentions two councils which had convened Roma Loki

1437
01:29:30,079 --> 01:29:35,800
to est. Yeah, it's obviously from Augustin's Seven Books against

1438
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:39,880
the Duntists. He didn't believe in what the Vatican Council

1439
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:43,079
in eighteen seventy defined about the supremacy of the pope

1440
01:29:43,119 --> 01:29:50,479
and his supremacy to even councils. So yeah, this it's

1441
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:58,119
been cited as from Augustine, but it's completely an authentic Yeah,

1442
01:29:58,119 --> 01:30:01,880
it's funny. One German Jesus writing just after the Vatican

1443
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:06,319
Council is the German Jesuit Weininger. In eighteen seventy one,

1444
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:10,920
he wrote, all the Holy Fathers said with Saint Augustine.

1445
01:30:11,199 --> 01:30:14,039
As soon as the Pope pronounced a judgment in matters

1446
01:30:14,079 --> 01:30:17,800
of faith, Rome has spoken, the cases decided, and he

1447
01:30:18,079 --> 01:30:20,720
makes this Jesuit makes the radical claim that all the

1448
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:24,920
Holy Fathers from Hermas in the first century dot dot dot,

1449
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:28,359
without a single exception, thought the Pope to be infallible

1450
01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:32,119
in the sense of the Vatican Decree of eighteen seventy's.

1451
01:30:33,239 --> 01:30:38,319
It's such a radical claim. And I'm I mean, you

1452
01:30:38,359 --> 01:30:40,720
can see what he said. I mean, it's not right.

1453
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:44,560
We know many fathers didn't believe in the Vatican Decree

1454
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:50,199
of eighteen seventy Are the equivalent really strange?

1455
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:51,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's ludicrous.

1456
01:30:53,279 --> 01:30:56,880
Speaker 5: Okay, we've got some embers maybe something. But the philio

1457
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:02,279
quinns the purgatory, so let's talk in the purgatory point seventeen.

1458
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 6: Oh brooked. Okay, yeah, this is somewhat less lesser known.

1459
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:11,560
But I did come across it. It was mentioned by

1460
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:14,600
some I found when I was reading some Anglican books

1461
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:17,920
against the Roman supremacy. Okay, did I want to see

1462
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:21,199
anything more on the roma? Lucky to ask. I don't

1463
01:31:21,199 --> 01:31:24,000
know if we should give more context to that one.

1464
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:28,479
Speaker 3: Now we need to move on and half on.

1465
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:30,720
Speaker 6: Oh wow, okay, yeah then then let's yeah, we could

1466
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:35,079
hurry up. Yeah. So these spirious epistles, they were invented

1467
01:31:35,439 --> 01:31:39,399
around let's say the twelve nineties or the early thirteen hundreds.

1468
01:31:40,159 --> 01:31:47,640
It just they're supposed to give evidence that there was

1469
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:51,560
some purgatory in belief, but one quick proof that it

1470
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:55,199
was false. And what's funny is that the story is

1471
01:31:55,279 --> 01:32:01,239
found in an epistle attributed to Saint Cyril about an

1472
01:32:01,279 --> 01:32:05,880
apparition of Saint Jerome, like that Saint Jerome appeared to

1473
01:32:05,960 --> 01:32:10,279
Saint Cyril after Jerome died. But what's failed to this

1474
01:32:10,359 --> 01:32:14,399
assertion is that Jerome outlived Cyril, and Jerome actually wrote

1475
01:32:14,399 --> 01:32:15,600
the life of Saint Cyril.

1476
01:32:16,039 --> 01:32:17,079
Speaker 5: So we know that.

1477
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:21,079
Speaker 6: That the chronology is.

1478
01:32:21,159 --> 01:32:26,439
Speaker 4: Well well, time can reverse, so appeal to the time

1479
01:32:26,560 --> 01:32:27,439
reversal argument.

1480
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:32,119
Speaker 6: You, yeah, that's that the argument, right.

1481
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:36,039
Speaker 5: One more about like the something about the video? Quick,

1482
01:32:36,199 --> 01:32:41,159
so many everything is in this book, but yeah, one

1483
01:32:41,159 --> 01:32:42,760
more of the philo quins, and I want us to

1484
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:46,760
finish on point twenty seven twenty eight. But like principal

1485
01:32:47,159 --> 01:32:50,760
Peter Damien's misquotation of the father and the local already

1486
01:32:50,840 --> 01:32:54,479
already showed some manuscript where the philocu was added. Just

1487
01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:57,479
noted everything is right after the schism, you know when

1488
01:32:57,880 --> 01:33:05,079
Rome needs to justify the skid, and it's everything goes faster.

1489
01:33:05,119 --> 01:33:06,600
Speaker 3: After this key point.

1490
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:09,960
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, I spent some time looking into that,

1491
01:33:10,079 --> 01:33:12,960
and yeah, two of the main letters where Saint Peter

1492
01:33:13,119 --> 01:33:15,760
Damien in the eleventh century is arguing against the Orthodox

1493
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:20,279
ten out of the twenty two Patristic authorities on the

1494
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:24,159
procession of the Holy Spirit are misquoted. So that's the summary.

1495
01:33:24,199 --> 01:33:28,880
I mean, I do show that with evidence to document that. So,

1496
01:33:29,079 --> 01:33:30,000
but that's the high level.

1497
01:33:30,399 --> 01:33:34,279
Speaker 4: Are these misquotes like all these are actually texts to

1498
01:33:34,359 --> 01:33:38,159
deal with economia and not the ontological relationship of the

1499
01:33:38,399 --> 01:33:40,479
Spirit to the Father as a soule cause?

1500
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:42,840
Speaker 3: Or are they like outright just like fake quote?

1501
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:48,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, like like textual errors like like either that maybe

1502
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:51,399
it's not his fault or but maybe his source was

1503
01:33:51,439 --> 01:33:56,079
an error, but it's yeah, whatever he's citing, it does

1504
01:33:56,239 --> 01:33:59,800
not it misses certain components. You know what I have?

1505
01:34:00,079 --> 01:34:02,680
Speaker 3: I have the Jurgon I think it's William Jurgens. Have

1506
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:03,479
you familiar with that.

1507
01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:06,159
Speaker 4: It's a three volume set that's kind of popular for

1508
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:08,760
run the Catholic apologetics and all it is is a

1509
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:10,279
three volume set of quote minds.

1510
01:34:11,039 --> 01:34:15,039
Speaker 3: Mmm, I have heard of I have one or two.

1511
01:34:15,079 --> 01:34:17,279
Speaker 4: Volumes of the Jurgon set, and I would bet you

1512
01:34:17,439 --> 01:34:20,640
money because it's an older series that it's relying on

1513
01:34:21,439 --> 01:34:22,439
a lot of these forgeries.

1514
01:34:23,119 --> 01:34:26,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, he also used the donation of Constantine as well.

1515
01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:31,520
Back to that. But besides you, okay, there's other stuff. Yeah.

1516
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:34,159
Maybe the most serious thing is he actually doesn't even

1517
01:34:34,239 --> 01:34:36,560
know the council that the Creed of n I see you.

1518
01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:39,399
And that's one of the strangest things I came across.

1519
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:44,319
I mean, that's he says, he quotes it as council,

1520
01:34:44,319 --> 01:34:46,479
and I see it as saying we believe in the

1521
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:51,279
Holy Spirit, who proceeds properly from the Father. And but

1522
01:34:51,359 --> 01:34:52,920
you know, in the Creed it just says he proceeds

1523
01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:55,720
from the Father. And then Damien makes a an argument

1524
01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:59,000
based on that word properly to say that the at

1525
01:34:59,119 --> 01:35:01,439
least it it's not referring to the Father in such

1526
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:02,359
a way that the Holy Spirit.

1527
01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:05,319
Speaker 3: This is, I mean, this is devastating to the whole

1528
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:08,000
people thing I don't. I mean, this is ludicrous.

1529
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:14,079
Speaker 6: I don't know about the Roman Catholic editor says, the

1530
01:35:14,199 --> 01:35:16,960
source on that seems to be a spurious writing a

1531
01:35:17,000 --> 01:35:21,239
scripteacher realm. But yeah, so maybe it wasn't. It wasn't

1532
01:35:21,319 --> 01:35:24,199
Damian himself forging it. But I mean, obviously he should

1533
01:35:24,199 --> 01:35:26,840
have been more careful, he should have known the creed.

1534
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:28,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's ludicrous.

1535
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:39,000
Speaker 5: What's next, Okay, moving on so point twenty seven, this

1536
01:35:39,159 --> 01:35:43,760
is in French, I can actually agree to. When when

1537
01:35:43,840 --> 01:35:46,239
the the Catholic you know, when they were faced with

1538
01:35:46,359 --> 01:35:48,920
the Protestant you know, who were seeing you know, a

1539
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:51,079
lot of these false traditions. We were seeing the room

1540
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:54,520
to call the power, and they refused that. You know,

1541
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:58,680
the Germans one had access to to a Bible, to

1542
01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:03,079
scripture in the Langue which it propped up. You know,

1543
01:36:03,279 --> 01:36:06,439
this idea of solar scriptura as this idea of rejecting tradition,

1544
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:09,399
and this in itself is already showing that Rome is

1545
01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:11,760
not coherent with the early Church because the early Church

1546
01:36:12,279 --> 01:36:15,199
used Latin, because it was the Vulgar language. You know,

1547
01:36:15,279 --> 01:36:17,479
that's where the name the Vulgar come from. You have

1548
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:19,520
seen photios who say, oh, you know, you should as

1549
01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:21,439
a cathecam and you should read the Bible, you should

1550
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:24,000
read the apocryphy, and you should be the church fathers.

1551
01:36:24,199 --> 01:36:27,640
You should even read some pagan argument to be able

1552
01:36:27,720 --> 01:36:31,840
to dispel them. It doesn't much be for Sincilians and

1553
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:36,920
Methodists who actually created vernacular languages to evangelize, and Rome

1554
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:39,399
tried to centralize this bar around the language, and that's

1555
01:36:39,399 --> 01:36:41,720
why you had the back clash with the personalt Reformation.

1556
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:45,439
They refused tradition because there were feelings that you know,

1557
01:36:45,520 --> 01:36:50,039
tradition added. Rome added things to a post tradition, and

1558
01:36:50,319 --> 01:36:52,479
that's why the rever to the Bible. But they didn't

1559
01:36:52,479 --> 01:36:55,640
have their own Bible. And that's where the old solascupture

1560
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:56,560
conndrum come from.

1561
01:36:56,920 --> 01:36:57,039
Speaker 6: Right.

1562
01:36:57,399 --> 01:37:00,920
Speaker 5: And what's very funny is that in order to counter

1563
01:37:01,279 --> 01:37:07,560
some of the Protestant claim, they actually were rewritings in French.

1564
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:10,359
So when they gave it to in the vernacular language,

1565
01:37:10,960 --> 01:37:14,479
they exchanged it and they added some of the dogma.

1566
01:37:15,399 --> 01:37:17,199
I don't know if you want me to read some

1567
01:37:17,279 --> 01:37:20,000
of them, but you have you have stuff that.

1568
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:22,039
Speaker 3: Added.

1569
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:27,199
Speaker 5: So in one current, in three they added of the

1570
01:37:27,279 --> 01:37:37,239
purgatory the sea sea miler can't situde for a comparat

1571
01:37:37,800 --> 01:37:40,800
So if if anemone's work should be burnt, he should

1572
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:45,359
suffer loss, but himself should be saved yet as by

1573
01:37:45,479 --> 01:37:50,359
the fire of purgatory. There's another one. If you want

1574
01:37:50,439 --> 01:37:54,920
to to to continue, yeah.

1575
01:37:55,840 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm glad you read that I was gonna

1576
01:37:58,199 --> 01:37:58,720
ask he did.

1577
01:37:59,399 --> 01:38:01,119
Speaker 5: It's another one, and I want you to to quote

1578
01:38:01,159 --> 01:38:02,560
when you mentioned the Roman faith.

1579
01:38:04,239 --> 01:38:07,680
Speaker 6: So there's that passage First Timothy, for one, where Saint

1580
01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:11,000
Paul says in the latter times some shall depart from

1581
01:38:11,079 --> 01:38:15,640
the Roman faith. So the La foy Romaine they add

1582
01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:17,439
this extra thing.

1583
01:38:17,359 --> 01:38:23,199
Speaker 5: You know, directly targeted and you know owens a lot

1584
01:38:23,319 --> 01:38:26,840
of time, you know, so starting unrest and you know

1585
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:30,119
this idea of apocalyptic thing because the Preston started it.

1586
01:38:32,119 --> 01:38:35,640
Speaker 4: Okay, so maybe in the second half we'll we'll get

1587
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:37,600
some of these super chats. I'm going to give a

1588
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:40,119
little bit of an overview of my take on some

1589
01:38:40,279 --> 01:38:42,920
of the forgeries. We're going to get a few more

1590
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:50,720
comments on the accusation from George uh Well, the accusations

1591
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,119
that rom Mecalock's made against your Orthodox about forgeries.

1592
01:38:53,159 --> 01:38:57,119
Speaker 3: I want to ask him a few questions about the forgeries.

1593
01:38:57,159 --> 01:39:02,079
Speaker 5: Go ahead, this is meta mean to zev forge document.

1594
01:39:07,399 --> 01:39:07,840
Speaker 3: That's great.

1595
01:39:08,039 --> 01:39:10,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is yeah. If you can close this.

1596
01:39:11,399 --> 01:39:15,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then I'm gonna if you want to, we're

1597
01:39:15,319 --> 01:39:17,960
gonna do this second half right after this, So this

1598
01:39:18,039 --> 01:39:21,039
will go up immediately to subscribers to Jay's analysis, and

1599
01:39:21,079 --> 01:39:24,000
then I apologize for being late for the second half

1600
01:39:24,159 --> 01:39:24,479
of the.

1601
01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:25,680
Speaker 3: Genesis Lecture six.

1602
01:39:26,039 --> 01:39:28,199
Speaker 4: Well, that should be done tomorrow, so I'll have the

1603
01:39:28,960 --> 01:39:32,479
story of Joseph completed tomorrow for subscribers.

1604
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:33,800
Speaker 3: Apologize for being late for that.

1605
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:35,840
Speaker 4: But let's read these supertest real quick before we move

1606
01:39:35,880 --> 01:39:37,239
to the second half.

1607
01:39:37,319 --> 01:39:37,960
Speaker 3: For the subs.

1608
01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:42,720
Speaker 4: The first question, well, I want to welcome a new member.

1609
01:39:43,439 --> 01:39:46,640
So well, he disappeared, so I guess maybe he's not

1610
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:50,000
a member. I don't know, but generic man with no name.

1611
01:39:50,119 --> 01:39:54,479
Thank you for joining. If you joined, and if you left, goodbye, Gigi.

1612
01:39:55,079 --> 01:39:56,920
Speaker 3: She sends ten bucks. Thank you, Gigi.

1613
01:39:57,079 --> 01:40:01,800
Speaker 4: Former trad Welcome to the stream. Armando Sanchez, He's a

1614
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:03,960
new member of Silver Member. Thank you, Amanda for joining.

1615
01:40:04,039 --> 01:40:06,880
M much appreciate. Nikodimus the Pharisee ten dollars. In Saint

1616
01:40:06,920 --> 01:40:12,159
Gregory the Great's book Morals is book two, number ninety

1617
01:40:12,239 --> 01:40:15,840
two authentic. It reads, the Man Jesus Christ and all

1618
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:19,399
things hath him both always and continually present for the

1619
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:24,319
same spirit, even as substance proceeds from him off the cuff.

1620
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:27,760
It wouldn't be a problem because the Man Jesus Christ

1621
01:40:28,359 --> 01:40:32,319
is a statement about the economia, and nobody denies that

1622
01:40:32,439 --> 01:40:36,039
the Spirit comes from the Son. Now, the word proceedeth

1623
01:40:36,079 --> 01:40:39,199
there doesn't necessarily mean the technical way that it's used

1624
01:40:39,319 --> 01:40:43,119
in the Orthodox terminology, right, so the procession of the

1625
01:40:43,199 --> 01:40:47,600
Spirit in the Weast, it can just mean coming from.

1626
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:50,279
And that's why they didn't really understand why in the East,

1627
01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:54,479
generation and procession were seen to be technical technically different

1628
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:58,079
as to movements from the Father. They just thought it

1629
01:40:58,159 --> 01:41:00,399
meant coming from. So that's part of the reason that

1630
01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:04,039
there's confusion of the filioquay. But in this in this instance,

1631
01:41:04,079 --> 01:41:05,720
I don't have Gregor's book in front of me.

1632
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:06,600
Speaker 3: I could go look later.

1633
01:41:07,119 --> 01:41:10,399
Speaker 4: But my conclusion is that this wouldn't even be a

1634
01:41:10,439 --> 01:41:14,720
problem anyway, because nobody has a problem believing that the Son,

1635
01:41:15,319 --> 01:41:18,319
when he's incarnate, sends the Holy Spirit. That has nothing

1636
01:41:18,359 --> 01:41:21,960
to do, however, with determining the hyposthetic origin of the

1637
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:24,439
Holy Spirit. And that's why the Fathers always make the

1638
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:29,760
distinction between the economic trinity and the ontological trinity. Right,

1639
01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:32,359
So his hyposthetic origin is not the same thing as

1640
01:41:33,079 --> 01:41:35,640
the Son sending the Spirit into time and space, into history.

1641
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:38,159
Speaker 5: So yeah, we cooverased this in the life with the

1642
01:41:38,319 --> 01:41:41,079
Church of thes We give the arguments of Saint Potios

1643
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:45,000
on this topic, it collapses into trinity. If you ad

1644
01:41:45,039 --> 01:41:46,800
a video queen on the level.

1645
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:49,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, you also get a bunch of stupid arguments too

1646
01:41:50,279 --> 01:41:52,880
that are stated in reference to the economy. You know,

1647
01:41:52,960 --> 01:41:55,760
the spirit of the Father or the spirit of the Son,

1648
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:59,119
or the Holy Spirit. You know, did the Holy Spirit

1649
01:41:59,239 --> 01:42:02,600
generate if you can read economia back into the godhead,

1650
01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:06,000
does the Holy Spirit generate the sun? Because the Holy

1651
01:42:06,079 --> 01:42:11,000
Spirit is who overshadowed Mary. I mean, the reading economia

1652
01:42:11,039 --> 01:42:13,119
back into the Godhead would lead to the most ridiculous

1653
01:42:13,159 --> 01:42:15,800
conclusions that not even Roman Catholics would admit.

1654
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:19,359
Speaker 3: This, although they will constantly cite the Church fathers.

1655
01:42:21,239 --> 01:42:25,039
Speaker 4: Inaccurately in statements about the economy and read that back

1656
01:42:25,079 --> 01:42:26,680
into the Godhead, so they don't know what they're talking about.

1657
01:42:26,720 --> 01:42:29,880
Russian anime bought by the way, that patristic set that

1658
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:33,680
I mentioned from Jurgons, the whole section on the phillyoquay,

1659
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:36,840
it literally does that. They're all statements about economia. So

1660
01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:39,880
Jurgons didn't even know the distinction between the ontological trinity

1661
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:42,680
and the economic trinity, so he just cites all these

1662
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:45,479
things about Jesus sending the Holy Spirit to the apostles

1663
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:48,000
of Pentecost that proves the eternal procession of the Spirit

1664
01:42:48,079 --> 01:42:51,960
from the Sun. This is ridiculous, anime bought five bucks.

1665
01:42:52,319 --> 01:42:54,800
Trads are shaking and spamming right now.

1666
01:42:55,159 --> 01:42:57,159
Speaker 3: Good work, Guy's good. That's what we want.

1667
01:42:57,520 --> 01:42:59,920
Speaker 4: You got to go through that phase of shaking and spamming,

1668
01:43:00,399 --> 01:43:03,079
so hopefully we can win the trads over to our side.

1669
01:43:03,119 --> 01:43:05,800
Speaker 3: We won quite a few. A lot of this chat

1670
01:43:06,199 --> 01:43:07,640
itself are former trads.

1671
01:43:07,720 --> 01:43:10,159
Speaker 4: I'm a former tried so we're glad to hear that

1672
01:43:10,199 --> 01:43:12,880
they're shaking, and eventually they will be on our side

1673
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:16,520
down the road, Lord Willing Xander Volpe seven seventy seven,

1674
01:43:16,680 --> 01:43:20,319
Great talk, gentlemen, Well thank you, Xander. Are you the

1675
01:43:20,399 --> 01:43:25,479
same Xander from Buffy the vent Pireslar Golden Arm two

1676
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:26,119
thousand and seven.

1677
01:43:26,199 --> 01:43:26,680
Speaker 3: Ten bucks.

1678
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:29,399
Speaker 4: Keep up the good work. We'll keep up those fat

1679
01:43:29,439 --> 01:43:31,680
super chats, Golden Arm, and I will always keep up

1680
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:32,159
the good work.

1681
01:43:32,279 --> 01:43:34,520
Speaker 3: Much appreciated. And then we got.

1682
01:43:35,079 --> 01:43:41,840
Speaker 4: James Plantage Nay twenty dollars. Maybe he can expose Snack

1683
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:45,840
as one of the Meryvingian bloodlines and we can know

1684
01:43:46,000 --> 01:43:48,640
for sure that snack actually is illuminate confirm. He is

1685
01:43:48,720 --> 01:43:52,479
the descendant of Charlemagne exposed illuminate confirm.

1686
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:54,960
Speaker 3: All right, so we're gonna move on now into the

1687
01:43:55,159 --> 01:43:55,720
second half.

1688
01:43:57,279 --> 01:44:03,159
Speaker 5: Go ahead, just maybe a closing statement, Yeah, yeah, a

1689
01:44:03,239 --> 01:44:08,800
small part. All case here was too sure that we

1690
01:44:09,239 --> 01:44:13,920
can see specifically, forgery is being used consistently in Rome

1691
01:44:14,039 --> 01:44:17,359
in a systemic manner. So that's why it's a real argument.

1692
01:44:17,560 --> 01:44:20,279
It's not you know, we're not discarding stuff. It's a

1693
01:44:20,359 --> 01:44:23,319
real argument that we can use. The baby has been

1694
01:44:23,359 --> 01:44:26,520
built on forgeries. It is systemic and all of these

1695
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:31,279
other of the sources are on the book of George,

1696
01:44:31,720 --> 01:44:35,760
and it is being prepared. We're trying to get it published.

1697
01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:38,640
So if you have a closing statement as well, George,

1698
01:44:39,439 --> 01:44:43,600
maybe plugging your book a little bit before the end

1699
01:44:43,640 --> 01:44:44,079
of this part.

1700
01:44:44,159 --> 01:44:45,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, this book looks great, by the way, I mean

1701
01:44:45,960 --> 01:44:48,079
the chapter that you've got, it's just like a chapter.

1702
01:44:48,279 --> 01:44:49,359
Speaker 3: Is this an outline of the book.

1703
01:44:50,319 --> 01:44:51,720
Speaker 5: We will send you the book.

1704
01:44:52,520 --> 01:44:54,359
Speaker 3: No, I mean I mean this page that like the

1705
01:44:54,520 --> 01:44:57,079
ten pages saying that we have here the twenty nine points.

1706
01:44:57,159 --> 01:44:58,760
Is that going to be the chapters or is that

1707
01:44:59,039 --> 01:45:00,600
just well, that is.

1708
01:45:00,640 --> 01:45:04,000
Speaker 6: A summary from what I have written already, I condensed

1709
01:45:04,239 --> 01:45:06,880
some of the well many of the points into into

1710
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:12,239
these bullets. And yeah, I can definitely send you a

1711
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:14,920
copy of the PDF. I did send it in Discord,

1712
01:45:16,720 --> 01:45:18,800
but it as a Google drive like.

1713
01:45:20,159 --> 01:45:23,359
Speaker 5: It's more than seven hundred pages. It's it's one of

1714
01:45:23,399 --> 01:45:26,159
the most complete things I've ever seen. I've schemed through it.

1715
01:45:26,239 --> 01:45:29,760
It's it's very useful for apologetics. It shows the evolution

1716
01:45:29,880 --> 01:45:32,640
in room, it shows the evolution of ideas from the

1717
01:45:33,159 --> 01:45:36,399
pre schism the Church, from the early Roman Catholic Church.

1718
01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:40,319
It covers consuls, it covers soldieries, it coverss the evolution

1719
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:44,359
of practices, and it's it's clearly one of the most

1720
01:45:44,399 --> 01:45:46,840
complete books. And I really hope it does get published,

1721
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:50,680
and I really open many of the subscribers here would

1722
01:45:50,680 --> 01:45:51,520
get interested in it.

1723
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:54,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, whether whether he self publishes or whether we

1724
01:45:55,039 --> 01:45:58,199
get a publisher, I'll definitely feature it on the website.

1725
01:45:58,279 --> 01:45:59,720
I mean, I can already tell it's going to be

1726
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:03,000
a bad so uh, it'll definitely be recommended in my

1727
01:46:03,159 --> 01:46:04,720
in my recommended reading list for sure.

1728
01:46:05,800 --> 01:46:09,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, no problem. Anything else you guys want to leave

1729
01:46:09,239 --> 01:46:09,439
us with.

1730
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:16,119
Speaker 4: That gave a good awesome, all right you Yeah, If

1731
01:46:16,119 --> 01:46:17,920
you want to subscribe to Jays Analysis, you can do

1732
01:46:18,039 --> 01:46:20,680
so here on the channel and the join button, or

1733
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:23,960
you can subscribe over at Jasonelso's dot dot com under

1734
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:27,439
the purchase membership link, and you'll have access to all.

1735
01:46:27,399 --> 01:46:30,479
Speaker 3: The vast archives of the last four or five years of.

1736
01:46:31,079 --> 01:46:34,600
Speaker 4: A treasure trove of material, interviews, lectures, podcasts, et cetera,

1737
01:46:35,039 --> 01:46:37,680
all the part twos, and then we will immediately do

1738
01:46:37,840 --> 01:46:41,000
part two of this right now and that'll be available

1739
01:46:41,159 --> 01:46:42,640
after the show it's complete.

1740
01:46:42,680 --> 01:46:44,520
Speaker 3: So thank you guys tonight, everybody, have a good night.

1741
01:46:45,319 --> 01:46:47,800
Thank you for those super chats, and God bless