Speaker 1: The whole FA the more the worms second sec.
Speaker 2: Second second seven second second second.
Speaker 3: We've learned so much.
Speaker 4: If you've been on the Jays Analysis, right, A lot
of you guys are new I understand that's cool, glad
to have you here. But some of you have been
with me for the long haul. In fact, there are
some who've been with Jays Analysis for ten years, reading
it back in the day, and we've come a long way.
We've come a long way, all right, Welcome, thank you,
glad to see you all here. We got a room
of almost two hundred nerds. I'm sure the nerds will
pile in then we can get up to about three hundred.
Speaker 3: Tonight we'll see it's your boy Jay in the house.
You boys.
Speaker 2: It subs s s s s s s supt steps
but supposss ss ss.
Speaker 3: All right, welcome, you're listening to Jay's analysis. We have
with us a team. We've got our old friend Snack.
How you doing, Snack.
Speaker 5: Doing great?
Speaker 3: Thank you for coming back.
Speaker 4: We're glad to have one of our premier researchers here
are French Ortho Bo Snack, and tonight we're going to
be talking.
Speaker 3: About the.
Speaker 4: Curious topics of the papal forgeries, the frauds, the deceptions,
the mistranslations, the innumerable instances of weird and strange things,
topics that we haven't exactly touched on in the past
when we did our Jesuit stream, which I think was
really really good. If you haven't heard the Jesuit stream
that I did with Snack, definitely go back and listen
to that one. I'll try to link that one below.
When this show is done, I want to thank the
new members who joined Welcome. But tonight we're going to
get into a topic that still comes up. Amazingly. You
would think that by now, oh we've moved on. Nobody's
doing forgeries anymore.
Speaker 3: We all know what the fort.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 4: No, these things are consistently still cited, and particularly these
forgeries and frauds are cited amongst trads. If you're in
the trad world, if you're in the trad apologetics world,
especially if you're you know, using the Catechism of Trent.
For example, when I was a trad, we use the
Catechism Trent all the time.
Speaker 3: I read it. When I was about two thousand and three,
I think I got my copy.
Speaker 4: Of the Council of Trent or the Catechism of Trent
from the SSPX that I attended, and I plowed through it,
and I thought I was solid and bazed a little.
Did I know I wasn't paying attention to the footnotes
because it actually still sites forgery. So we're gonna be
looking at some of that stuff. We're gonna get deep,
as you know, as we always do at Jay's analysis.
And we have with us another researcher we have with us,
George tonight, George.
Speaker 6: How you doing, Hey, Jay, I'm doing great. Thanks for
having me here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, glad, You're glad you're with us. You've done a
lot of research on this topic, and I think you're
going to put together some material. Maybe you're working on
a book or something like that. Tell us about yourself
whatever you're comfortable letting us know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, So I'm George. I've done a lot of
reading into and studying into the differences between the Roman
Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox Church. I've been writing a
book compiling my notes such on the history of these differences,
such as on infant communion, triple immersion, and baptism, celibacy
of priests, papal supremacy, you know, all the differences purgatory,
but especially forgeries, which is the topic today. So it's
definitely interested me for the last seven or eight years,
and I've been Yeah, it's a topic I've been really
interested in.
Speaker 3: Awesome. So, and and I'm not trying to quiz you,
but are you Are you Orthodox?
Speaker 6: Yes? Yeah, that's right. I've been Orthodox my my whole life.
I mean I was born and baptized as an infant. Yeah.
I live in California near La So and my family
background is Lebanese and so I but maybe it was
only in the last like ten years or so that
I re focus on Christianity and and got a lot
more interested in learning about history and the truth.
Speaker 4: Awesome all right, So I've got your your notes here,
and we got a lot of stuff to get through.
Speaker 3: So let's let's dive into this.
Speaker 4: It's going to be a little scholarly and heavy tonight,
so everybody be prepared. We're going to make this as
delightful as we can.
Speaker 3: Where do you want to start?
Speaker 4: Do you want to do you want to launch into
the this list right away?
Speaker 3: Or how do you want to go about it?
Speaker 6: I think that's good. I think it's good to also
maybe preface it. I noticed in one your recent tweet
where you said that's pretty good, it's worth voting in
the beginning.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was thinking about this list as I was.
Speaker 4: I printed it out today before we were going to
do this live stream, and I was looking through this list,
and it occurred to me, where was the infallible magisterial
guidance of the Roman sea in the midst of these
you know, twenty nine to thirty examples that you have
of sporterers, but now they're not all cited by the pope,
but I mean in many cases they are, and it's
just a sort of it Steiny's the mind to ask
the question, where was the spirit guiding the Romans? Did
the spirit not want to tell the Roman see that
these are forgeries that are being cited to or is
it is people infallibility just not what we think that
it is right? And so we're kind of left of
one of these dilemmas where it's like, well, we were
infallible when we were right, but all those instances where
things were wrong, that was actually the instances where we
were we were fallible right. The other times we're infallible.
So we're kind of left at this impasse of the
sort of begging the question motif that's you know, so
consistent with the.
Speaker 3: Roman Catholic apologetic approach. So so, yeah, where was the
magisterial guidance to not know that forgeries were being cited
in many many cases?
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's definitely.
Speaker 3: All right, Sogainn does.
Speaker 5: So on one side, you have the infallibility that you're
supposed to bring some level of omnissions or at least
guarantee truth. And I've seen many people when you're discussed
with Bara on all discord, you know, and when we
discussed with other apologies, I would say that there is
some level of uh and undefeatable ignorance that applies as
well invincibleance. So it's weird you have simultaneously some level
of omnissions and the same time some level of ignorance.
It is present all over the documents. You know, if
you look at Vatican one, you even have factual errors.
You have factual and historical errors. But yeah, many many
declaration and we're gonna we're gonna dive into just the
biggest example, but many magisterial declarations use a factually false
factory fores, and that the Vatican admits to be forties today.
Speaker 3: Right, all right, so let's get into it. What's where
do you want to take us first?
Speaker 6: Yeah, we could start with the donation of Constantine. It's
a really well known forgery. I mean that and the
pseudo Isidorian decretals, but I think it did. This is
pretty important and worth noting. Maybe the most interesting part
about this is that that Pope Leo the ninth, on
the eve of the Sism in the early ten fifties,
he cited nearly the entire donation of Constantine to Michael
Ceri Larius, the patriarch of Constantinople, and telling him this is,
you know, the proof of our supremacy, and and he
so confidently insists upon it. And more than that, he says,
you know, we don't appeal to fables, old wife's stories.
And it's as if he was utterly ignorant that this
is inauthentic. And so it's pretty significant that this was
cited right on the even of theism, and and twice
by Popelio the ninth to justify that sism. Yeah, along
with claims that the Greeks removed the philioquay from the Creed.
I mean, the document excommunicating the Orthodox in ten fifty
four says that the Orthodox removed the philioque from the Creed,
and it's it's that's not historically accurate because it was
never in there to begin with, right, But they didn't
didn't seem to uh yeah, and.
Speaker 4: There you have even new advent. I've got a new
advent on the screen. You can see that calling Encyclopedia,
you know is oh, yes, this is a forged document.
And but we're pointing out here that you know, this
is this has been used as a justification in particularly
here in the situation of the schism itself.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean we could I don't know if we
should read a passage from it or I mean to see, yeah, well,
so in this it reads as the blessed Peters seemed
to have been constituted vicar of the Son of God
on the earth. So the pontiffs, who are the representatives
of that same chief of the Apostles, should obtain from
us in our empire the power of a supremacy greater
than the clemency of our earthly imperial serenity, et cetera.
And you know, saying that the chief of the apostles
and his vicars are our constant intercessors with God. This
is from the donation of Constantine, and it was cited
by no less than ten popes at least I found
a few more. I found about thirteen popes who either
cited it directly or made like an incidental reference.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's good.
Speaker 4: That's a good point there, because you know a Catholic
Oh well, this is just some anomaly, so there was
a forgery. Well no, this is you know, if it's
cited by thirteen different popes, and that's more relevant. And
by the way, in that citation that you have in
your notes that you sent me, it goes on to
talk about that the supremacy is over all. The principle
sees not just the temporal power of the emperor, but
it's also full supremacy over the other patriarchis which violates
Canon six of Nicia, and it violates the Apostolic canons
as well.
Speaker 6: Yes, and it is interesting that this is I mean
in the Catholic encyclopedia itself, I mean, they admit a
lot of things. It is fairly impartial on some of
these important points. You know, they admit that the first
time a pope officially sited the donation it was in
ten fifty four on the Eveypcism. It was probably the
Night two side in the most bold fashioned. Others just
made more like smaller references to it. But he cites
like two full pages in Latin. Wow.
Speaker 5: Yeah, what's very interesting that he doesn't site Few sixteen eighteen.
If today's was this question, it would be like, you know,
the Purples and Matthew sixteen eighteen, you know, appeal to
evidence from that's very late. If you look at the skism,
there were three grounds for it. The fact that the
Greek supposedly removed the filioque from the creed, which is
a factual historical error, it didn't happen. It was added
the fact that Greek priests could be married men, which
today the Vatican admit that you know, historically they changed it,
and that they accepted through the units and the use
of leaven bread. So there are three reasons. All of
them are wrong, and there is by virtue of one authority,
the donation of Constantine, which is also wrong. So if
you look at this and look and think like, okay,
there was this United Church before schism, and if you
look at who's on the wrong side of the schism,
it's wrong because Rome initiated it on wrong grounds with
a wrong authority, and today they admit it right. And
that's what we'll see that many forgeries are pertaining to
the authority of the pubs, the authority of Peter and
the filioquy exactly original, exactly.
Speaker 3: This is a great point.
Speaker 5: Were right the philioqui to justify schism? Because is there
the wrong? Yeah, in terms of schism.
Speaker 4: So the forgeries were necessary to justify their actions, and
that's crucial to understand. You might say, well, these are
just historical accidents and anomalies. No, no, no, it was
necessary to do this to justify the actions of the
schism and to justify Oh, well, you removed the Philioqui
from the creed. I mean, who is so stupid as
to think that the Philioquoi was removed from the creed?
Speaker 3: This is utterly ridiculous.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I like how the Orthodox and Cyclical of eighteen
I think eighteen ninety five it says that the Latins
condemned themselves by their own ignorance. I like the phrasing
because they condemned those who mess with the creed, then
they're the one they're condemning themselves by their.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're condemned for changing the creed, then you're
condemn yourself because.
Speaker 3: We didn't change the creed.
Speaker 4: And I think everybody should know this by now, which
is utterly ridiculous. Okay, so there's more here in your
notes on the donation. Is there anything else you want
to touch on there?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess I should quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia
on the Donation. It says they affirmed that this document
is without doubt a forgery fabricated somewhere between the years
seven fifty and eight fifty, and that it was generally
considered authentic until the fifteenth century. That it was exposed
by the Treaties of Lorenzo Vala in fourteen forty, which
is said to have proved the forgery with certainty. But
even after it was exposed in the Renaissance, still Roman
Catholic defenders of the donation existed. In fact, it's very
interesting that we find a few inquisitors and officials in
the Roman Church saying, as I quoted, he who denies
the donation lies under suspicion of heresy and others. Yeah,
others say, you come near to heresy if you pronounce
the donation to be null and void. And it seems
it finally was abandoned at the end of the sixteenth
century after Baronius the History the Roman historian admitted that
it was a forgery. But and I like what Dolinger
says says about it. I mean, maybe you know, in
my book I do make extensive quotation, so I don't
know how that might work in a live feed, but
I think might as well read this paragraph of Dolinger
if you're okay. Yeah, so he says. On the other hand,
Nicholas Tudeshi, who was considered by his contemporaries as the
greatest of all canonists, declares that he who denies the
donation lies under suspicion of heresy. Cardinal Parisius and the
Spanish Bishop are Old Albertinas declare the same. Whosoever pronounces
the donation to be noll and void says the latter
comes very near to heresy. But whosoever maintains that never
took place at all is and is still worst case.
Antonius Rozales and Ludwig Gomez are of the same opinion,
and Cardinal Hieronymous Albano declares this much at least, that
there exists shameless persons who refused to submit to the
unity of the fathers respecting the donation, or according to
this or according to the expression of Petrous Igneus to
the tota Academia canonist tarum at legislaturum, the whole academy
of canonists and legislators, with the whole host of theologians
to boot. But after Cardinal Baronius had once for all
confessed the unauthenticity of the donation, all these voices, which
had shortly before been so numerous and so loud, became dumb.
That's what Dollinger says. You know, he had been a
Roman Catholic for fifty years, I mean a professor for
fifty years, a Roman Catholic for eighty years, and then
he rejected the Vatican Council.
Speaker 5: And yeah, Dulinger is one of the foremost scholars in
terms of the forgery. Soever book. It's called The Papacy,
it's originally the Middle Ages and its continuation, and so
it's six hundred pages, four hundred and fifty hundred of
them are just references where he shows.
Speaker 6: I recommend that book. Yeah, I've read it, it's really good.
Speaker 5: So he's just exposing and he says that there is
a systemic problem of forgeries. That he supposes there was
even a full department of the Vaticans. It was dedicated
to forging stuff.
Speaker 3: Oh wow.
Speaker 5: So yeah, something interesting about the Nation of Constantine that
it was still quoted by some Roman Catholic even after
there was general admissions that they were wrong, especially absentcious Legory.
But you know about it.
Speaker 3: So the doctor of the church who justifies lying and
who obsesses on the way that everyone is going to
be punished in hell, uh, he still cites these as
for these forged documents, even after it was admitted pretty
much by everybody.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Ligory does I mean, I know, at least the
pseudo is doing the cridles. I'm not sure about the donation.
Speaker 5: The pudo is doing. For sure. He admits it in
his own writings. Like in his own writings he says
it is our thought. But yeah, he still uses it,
and he's honored as you know, the most zealous doctor.
Speaker 4: Well what if we're gonna, I mean, what's wrong with
lying if we just keep people from you know, leaving
the Barkipeter, right, I mean if you if you leave
the Barkipeter, you lose your soul. So it's justified line.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the chasuistical immorality. Yeah, that's yeah, it's it's
not moral, but that's a separated Yeah, that's why it's.
Speaker 4: Called Casustrie exactly. Yeah, I mean, that's that's what we
have a problem with. And I mean it just opens
the door to all this nonsense. And this is why
you see a lot of people in the Triad world
acting the way that they do. They have a worldview
which is based on all this nonsense, and so they
have to prop it up and act like goblins.
Speaker 3: I mean it's and they just can't deal with the facts.
Speaker 4: They can't deal with these that their own church right
is gone into the downward spiral of madness that it
has because of being based on centuries and centuries and
centuries of lies and deceptions.
Speaker 3: That's what you get. The end result is a giant
pedo cult.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: It's really crazy to see how much forgeries were used.
I mean it's I mean I had a lot of
sympathy for the traditionalist Roman Catholics. That's what got me
interested in this, Like coming across some of these online saying, Okay,
you know, if you're not Roman Catholic, then you're you're
not saved. So it's absolutely necessary you become a Roman Catholic.
And well, you know it's this is an important subject
affecting each of us, you know, the question of our salvation.
So I personally felt I wanted to follow up sometimes
maybe one thing I really would insist upon always is
verify references. When whenever you come across some kind of
citation or quote. Mind as Snack mentioned, love these quote nines.
If you look at the citations, sometimes you'll find it's
an authentic Sometimes you'll find it's misquoted. I gave some
examples we could talk about later tonight.
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna make a small rand about quot lights
and stuff. Oftentimes you will find, you know, a Catholic
apological website just rowse of you know, twenty quotes, and
you know you've done a strait wi the last time
that sometimes you can have legitimate quotes that are quoted,
you know, out of context, that are quoted in a
way that that doesn't prove Roman supremacy that prove you know,
premise in honor. Saints are quoted without you know, the life.
For example, how can Augustine be a papist if he
presided over a counsul. That's says that you cannot appeal
to Rome. And so that's one problem. But when you
go sometimes you will find some coach, you know, that
market contentious and if you look, you know the they're
usually listed, you know, in Court Minds and Roman Apologic website.
If you look at the quote, the quote actually brings
you to a book. The book will bring you to
the p G and the p L, which are you know,
Patrol Petro Latina, the big the big volumes of Patristics.
And when you go in there, and actually one of
my mentors, Jean aposthetized from the SSPX just by looking
at this, because when you go in there, you'll see
that the text itself admits that there were modification. Sometimes
you will have people have footnotes where it says this
text was modified to fit the Roman doctrine. You will
have variations, so sometimes you will have an Orthodox variation
the footnotes. Sometimes you will have the you will have
the Orthodox variation. But the Catholic website will still quote
a footnote that is that is an alternate Catholic version,
you know, very papist. Sometimes you will have the correct
saying two words, and the two words will be translated
into Latin into two paragraphs. When about the video quay
one about the premise you of Peter, So just looking
at this text is already a big problem. Like you
see that the text themselves, they admit it's a mess.
Speaker 4: They admit, yeah, it's massive, it's mastly right, and and
a lot of uh normy tyr pop apologist don't even
care about this.
Speaker 3: There's no concern for this.
Speaker 4: If you're reading you know, Stephen Ray or Dave Armstrong
or these kind of guys, you're just going to get
these books that basically just do the quote mine. Oh look,
here's twenty quotes. So therefore Catholic answer shows you that,
you know, Patrick Madrid, all these guys do the exact
same thing. Mark Shea, it's just a copy paste model
from from websites. And then, like Snack says, when you
actually go and look at the quotes, it's more there's
more to it than that. There's variations on this, and
these guys don't ever even touch on the you know,
famous long list of forgeries.
Speaker 3: So you want to move on to the next one.
Speaker 5: The pseudo is that one one more thing to say.
But you know, a quote increased, you know sometimes you
know the website would even will fully you know, stop
stop a quote and actually easy timon brothers do this,
so they will you know, they will lease the apostles
and they would just you know, and everything after Peter.
Yeah right, so you know, is the bishops are important,
it would stop everything after the.
Speaker 3: Pope lying biomission.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Sometimes you will have you know, willfully willful mistranslation
sometimes so we'll add added notes and on. But sometimes
you still find, you know, one in a million, you
will find one quarter still looks paper. And then if
you go to the manuscript, and if you could put
up this picture of the manuscript, sometimes you will you
will find you will have to go to the manuscript
and in the manuscript you will see that there are
blatant things that were added. So for example, here's an example.
I don't know if you have it on screen, but
of Saint Gregory is a great and in his dialogues,
so book two, chapter thirty eight, you can see that
there was a failure added. So in the manuscript itself,
someone came after and added a mentioned you know, of
procession by the father and the son. The son was
was added. I don't know if you can pull up
the pictures.
Speaker 3: I would if I had it, I don't have.
Speaker 4: I on two different computers, so one of them is
logged into the Skype and the other one isn't, so
I don't have If you said that, if you send
an image to me on discord, I.
Speaker 3: Can put that up.
Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, I'll do this right now.
Speaker 3: Go ahead.
Speaker 5: So even if you go to the manuscript, you'll see
that there are still forgeries and it's still it's still
a huge problem. So that's why you shouldn't, you know,
give into the court mind. If you if you actually
take your time, you will you will find that there
will be layers of errors, and not everybody has the
time to read the intire chef set. You read it,
and you know, reading the entire chap set, you understand
it a little bit better. That was just my mariunt
about court minds. Don't take it. Don't take them for granted.
As for the sources, look at the sources. People will
just you know, code them with that without even thinking.
Speaker 4: Yes, So I'm pulling these uh these images up here,
and I'm gonna put this on the screen force here
and so this is from one of Gregory's dialogues.
Speaker 3: And you can see that this has been added here.
Speaker 5: So yeah, that's from the original managecrip, you have the failure,
you know, just justify the.
Speaker 3: Video quacks just written up there in the in the margins.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Sometimes it's even more blatant. Sometimes we'll see that a
different ink was used, you know, you like you can
see the difference in coloration, different ink, different time period,
different writings. Sometimes you will even see like a different
writing styles because it evolves.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah, so I've got it on the screen.
You can see that it's added up there.
Speaker 4: So uh so yeah, so you know from the Roman mindset,
Oh well, the ce for he taught there, it is
right there, and you can clearly see that someone has
added that there at some point.
Speaker 5: Yeah, people will not go to the manuscript. They won't
even go to the to the books it's quoted the pgs.
They will of course never go to the pg in
pl so they don't do the work it's based on ignorance,
and that's a big problem people who just quote my
court mind and it's not scholarly, it's not it's not decent,
but and it's oftentimes not honest. But we've already demonstrated,
if you know Ligorianism and so on, that if you
can lie by admission, if you can be generally dishonest,
that still bring people to Rome's. It's it's not a
big deal. So I guess now we can move on
to this big list.
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, yeah, should we go on to that. We
can talk about the Philly Okay, later I did prepare
some notes about that, including that quote of Gregory. But yeah.
The next topic was the pseudo Zidorian Decredels, which is
maybe the most significant. I mean that alone, it could
there's a lot to say about that. That's maybe the
most extensively used of all the Roman collections. This is
what was so the Catholic of Cyclopedia. It's it says
that so the false Estorian Decredils is verse to a
collection of forged papal letters and other apocryphal documents. They
were created around the year eight fifty, and they are
said to be from Saint Isidora or Isidor, who was
the Bishop of Seville in Spain from six hundred to
six thirty six. He's alleged to be the compiler of
that collection. And so these forged documents claim to be
from the early ages of the Church and give decretals
from popes from the first century to the fourth century.
And this forgery greatly promoted the papacy. It had other
motives as well, to defend the bishops against the secular powers.
But the Catholic Encyclopedia admits it must be admitted that
the popes benefited by the forgeries, although it says their
good faith is beyond question. According to the Catholic encyclopa
but we could say that the ready acceptance of the
popes of these forgeries cast suspicion upon that statement that
their good faith is beyond question. There's some yeah, there's
a lot to say about that as well. So we
could go further. I mean, in the Council of Florence,
we did. The Greeks were pressured with a lot of
these visitoriandkredles, and it's quite well known. In fact, I mean,
I might like to make another quote from a former
Roman Catholic in the eighteen hundreds. If that's okay, yeah,
let's see, this was a guy named folks f fou
l k e s he was saying, he wrote to
Cardinal Manning in eighteen hundreds. Is it credible that the
papacy should have so often appealed to these forgeries for
its extended claims? Had it any better authorities, distinctive authorities
to fall back upon. Every disputant on the Latin side
finds in these forgeries a convincing argument against the Greeks.
Quote to prove this, the universal jurisdiction of the pope,
said Abbot Barlem, himself converted by them from the Greek Church.
To convert his countrymen, one need only look through the
decredal epistles of the Roman pontiffs, from Saint Clement to
Saint Sylvester. And that's a quote from Abbot Barlem. And
in the twenty fifth session of the Council of Florence,
the Provincial of the Dominicans is ordered to address the
Greeks on the rights of the Pope, the Pope being
present twice. He argues from these pseudodecretal of Saint Anacletus,
at another time from this synodical letter of Saint Finacious
to Felix at another time from a letter of Julius
to the Easterns. All forgeries. Afterwards, in reply to objections
taken by Bessarian in conference to their authority apart from
the question of their authenticity, his position in another speech
is that those decretal epistles of the Pope, being synautical
epistles in each case, are entitled to the same authority
as the canons themselves. Can we need further evidence of
the weight attached to them on the Latin side.
Speaker 5: So this is.
Speaker 6: And yeah, there's even more examples. I mean, if if
you're going to look into the acts of the Council forwards,
there's they really excited and maybe it's good to give
a few examples of what.
Speaker 4: These Yeah, because Florence is huge for the whole you
know East West divide, so absolutely.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's huge for the you know, papal consolidation.
And that's what's very funny is that to use this
as cuffolding, so the papacy would not have been possible
these forgeries, yes, and those are is you know, propped up.
Know that this building has been you know built, give
this forgeries that like, oh, we can remove these forgeries. Actually,
you know, they're not important, so the pub becomes infalliable
and becomes supreme and song the forgeries, and then over time,
you know, or the purpuse is valuable so it doesn't
need the forgeries, so we can discard them. I mean,
is it a scuffolding? Is it the house of cards?
You know, if these are the things that make the
pope supreme? If if you discard those things, the purple
is no longer supreme, and the Pope themselves discards these
things that created the papacy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're they're admitted by the Vatican and all the
scholars in that hole Ethos to be forgeries.
Speaker 3: And so I mean, like, at what point do we
finally just give this thought?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 6: Yeah, the Catholic Encyclopedia makes them really astonishing admissions. I mean,
it's it's there's a lot to mention, which it's very
presented in the book. But I'll just mention a few
things that I'll quote. Far from the Catholic Encyclopedia from
the nineteen tenths. It says it was only under Leo
the ninth from ten forty eight to ten fifty four
that they false decretals took firm hole at Rome. And
then we see that a lot of these canonists, including Gration,
Gregory the seventh and so many other state included these
false documents in their collections. And okay, let's see I
made a note about the Chef's encyclopedia. Okay, yeah, another
important thing. So the collection made in Italy under Leo
the ninth in the year ten to fifty is little
more than a compendium of the pseudo Isidoriana. Two hundred
and fifty of its three hundred and fifteen chapters are
from the forgery. And this is just one of many collections.
So they entered into all these collections of canons, and
so they were they helped sway from around the year
eight fifty till well after fifteen fifty, so it's a
period of seven hundred years. And even the official edition
of the Corpus Jurists from Rome in fifteen eighty it
upheld the genuineness of the false decreidels and it's very
The last scholar, according to a quote from Colton, he's
a great Anglican scholar. In the nineteen thirties wrote against
Rome says. The last scholar to admit a defense of
the genuineness of these decredles was the Spanish Benedictine js Aguaer,
professor of theology at Salavanca and Secretary to the Inquisition
in Spain, in the seventh dissertation of his Collectio Conciliorum Hispanie.
The book was printed in sixteen eighty three and the
author was promoted to the cardinalate in sixteen eighty six,
but no modern Roman scholar takes as dissertation seriously, So
the last scholar of the fandom was in sixteen eighty three,
even though they were still cited afterwards by ignorant Roman
Catholics who just maybe got them from previous quote minds
that were printed. They just just quoted them, appeal to
them without being careful.
Speaker 5: Since we're own the Console of Florence, something that we
might bring up is another forgery. You know, many oftentimes
you will have a Catholic coming in terms of oh,
you know, you accept the console of Floor and the
patriarchs signed. Actually the patriarch was not at the end.
It died a little bit before in weird circumstances. But
that the document that is used is a last letters. Well,
and what's very interesting is that is this letter and
I'll let Georgia go ahead that this letter is dated
from one day after his death. So this letter is
signed one day after the death of the guy who
supersely wrote it.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, that's that's the testament of Patriarch Joseph at
the Council of Florence. Yeah, that's also something important and
worth mentioning, especially since that that's still cited by Roman Catholics,
including that the Diamond Brothers group they in their video
on the Council of Florence. So this is basically, you know,
the Patriarch of Conception Nopal Joseph the second he died
during the council. He died June tenth, fourteen thirty nine.
But it's he was said to have before his death.
Ron his death that signed a declaration in which he
admitted the philioque, purgatory and papal supremacy, saying, you know,
apparently says I acknowledge the Holy Father of Fathers, the
Supreme Pontiff and Vicar of our Lord Jesus Christ, the
Pope of Rome. Likewise, I acknowledged purgatory in the affirmation
of this, I fixed my signature, so it's been shown
that this is not his actual This wasn't written by
the patriarch. Yeah, like Sneck mentioned the date on it
is June eleventh, even though he died June tenth, So
is it's obviously he didn't write it after he died.
And I mean I've seen the defense from that scholar
Gil where he says, oh, maybe the patriarch didn't know
the correct date or something. But there's other evidences too.
It was written by someone whose first language was It
appears to have been Latin, not Greek, based on the
way the document is latinized, like the scholar fromon the
German scholar, he made an extensive investigation into this document.
He said, quote, this document is so latinized and corresponds
so little to the opinion expressed by the patriarch several
days before that, its spuriousness is evident. And then yeah
from a in scholar, awesome.
Speaker 5: And this is besides the fact that they apparently wrote
it beyond the grave.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's it's definitely it was never even
cited at the council itself.
Speaker 4: Well, just they just need an apparition to come and
say that this was done, you know, from the grave.
Speaker 3: So then it would be.
Speaker 5: Since we're talking about the lack of Hellenism, on to quote.
Another forgeries that's still being used today is the creed
of Ethnicius.
Speaker 4: I was about to ask you guys that, Yeah, I
have that in my notes. If you have the Athenian
creed mentioned because the state of a conscious and the
traads all side this, they don't even know it's a forgery.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So the Athoenician creed is supposedly from Athenicious, but
when you look at it, and you know, all these
students that look at it, including Geta, says, you know,
there's no trace of Hellenism there. It's not being quoted
anywhere in the East. Is not being quoted by Cyril,
who was you know, you'd admiration for Athnicius. It is
it doesn't correspond to the ideas of Athnicius, because Athnicises
himself fought against people what ideas similar to the philioquin
or the potomatomacon. The Macedonians equaled them Pagans for for
saying that the philioque as the spirit will be subordinated
to the sun. And it's not even quoted during the achism.
So if one of the biggest father of the East,
you know, wrote something that the philioquay in it, without
doubt it would have been quoted, you know, by the
poet during the schism. The first time it's mentioned, it's
the twelfth century, so it's after the schism, is to
justify the schism that this one is being quoted. And
this one is still used today. Oftentimes they will use
it instead of the regular creed because you know, it's
it's for them, it's a proof. You know, it's very
old creed. And so all these story discarding it and
big use no problem, all right, So which one do
we all know?
Speaker 3: Number?
Speaker 6: We could go to? What's next? Oh? The Oh, the
very serious one is that Katina used by a Quinas. So,
I mean my my book, the Titles Errors of the
Latins that I wrote. That title is a kind of
response to Thomas Aquinas. He wrote Storum yeah, and he's
yeah saying talking trying to prove the Greeks are wrong.
But what's interesting is I spent a couple nights, some
late nights, just looking carefully into each of these passages.
So so in total, Thomas Aquinas makes two hundred and
eleven patriots excitations in this book against the Greeks. Out
of the hundred and eleven, one hundred and fifty two
of them are inauthentic, about seventy seventy two percent.
Speaker 4: And this is I bring this up to trads and
I don't even know what you're talking about. They just
call you names. They don't even deal with the arguments.
And like, you know, Aquinas relied on a document full
of forgeries.
Speaker 2: Shut up, plague, shut up, KGB, shut up, shut up, retard.
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, okay, good argument, dude.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's a yes, that's the most you know,
that's a chief theology and to the most influent, and
what he got from the previous tradition, from the pusant
that is mostly forgeries. It's mostly fake. So how can
he be you know, this genius understood everything in sympathizal
tradition where it doesn't know about the farthest where he
uses many miscuits.
Speaker 4: And you said out of out of uh, let's see
one and fifty two out of two hundred eleven or
seventy two of the Patristic citations and Aquinas's contra Aroorius
Orcorum are inauthentic.
Speaker 3: Many false quotes from Saint Cyril and others.
Speaker 4: This has a mass of impact on Catholic apologetic literature
from many centuries. So these are not just random, Oh
you found some tonal clipping that was somebody's tonail was
was off in history? No, no, this is what influenced
apologists for you know, centuries.
Speaker 3: This is not yet nothing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's it's amazing that that from a Quinness,
it really was used by everyone, like he became that
quote mind source And the source of these letters is
it's it's said to be from a guy named Nicholas
of Cotrone who sent a collection called Libellus to Pope
Urban the fourth, Yeah, I believe. And then he's Urban
sent it to a Quinnas and telling him like write
a book, you know, against the Greeks and so on, right,
and and that was where we get it. So I
mean it's really like the Pope himself kind of forwarded
these this libels, and pretty much the whole collection is
from the libels. Like out of that two hundred eleven
actually two oh five are from that Libellus of the
Patriotic Code. And I was actually being a bit generous
because I was there were a few like improperly quoted things.
I was like, okay, that's all. Let that count as
a real quote.
Speaker 4: But I mean, yeah, interesting how the traads never talk
about this, They never touch on this, They never explain this.
Speaker 3: This is all ignored and they just get mad if
you talk about it. Why why why aren't.
Speaker 5: The like today you have Catholic website called Katina will
use you know this this bank of quotation, right? That
quite excuse. So people are studying the Bible before quote.
The greatest theologian has been has been working before quote.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Actually, when you hear about is the angelic doctor
so highly praised by multiple popes as if or guiding
him while he's writing these books, Well, no angels were
helping him with this book at least, or they would
have told him that, you know, you're not using this
isn't what Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: We're going to see this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're going to see the same problem later on
in the Maryan Apparition of Fatima, where Mary seems to
have not known well, I don't know why the angels
in the Holy Spirit didn't tell Mary that England was
instrumental in shipping Bolshevism and communism to Russia, is particularly
the Western banking power, the the the elites in the West.
But no, this is this somehow Mary forgot to mention
this at Fatima as she just happens to mention the
geopolitically useful idea that Russia.
Speaker 3: Will spread her errors to the rest of the world.
Speaker 4: Where were Karl Marx and Frederick Ingles from. Oh they
were from England, exactly right. But we know it's Russia
that's going to spread her errors to the world. Okay, okay, Mary,
quote unquote.
Speaker 6: Mary, Yeah, I haven't looked too much into the Mary
and apparitions.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm just making an analogy to the fact that,
like it's the same kind of issue of like, well,
why what I mean this isn't this isn't disputed. I
mean this is where crawl Marx and Ingles are from. Right,
that they're wealthy. Ingles was sort of the monetary support
for Marx.
Speaker 3: Is he Russian? Are either these people were Russian?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: But what does Mary say, get ready for you know
world wars that are coming with Russia. Russia is the
problem here exactly. You see, so in other words, it
has a geopolitical use, is what I'm trying to say.
So in the same way, just like with the first
forgeries that we mentioned, there's a justification that comes through
citing forged documents for the actions of the papacy in
regards to phili Oakuay, there's a justification that comes in.
Speaker 3: The apologetic moves.
Speaker 4: Oh well we were getting this from aquinas he's he's
our angelic doctor.
Speaker 3: You know, where was the Holy Spirit in these huge.
Speaker 4: Blundering errors that are now admitted by not just all
the competent scholars out there, but also the Vatican itself.
Speaker 6: M Yeah, Yeah, there's definitely a lot of very stark
differences compared to the first millennium. And that's something I
was it's obvious that at least if you've if you
aren't blinded by prejudice, I would say, you can see
these clear differences from the first millennium to the second millennium.
These traditionalist Roman Catholics, and you know, said of the
Cants type folks, they're not really aware of the first
millennium of the Church, which is way different. A lot
of things, I mean, customs changed, I mean those.
Speaker 3: Well, the canons.
Speaker 4: I mean, the canons are one of the greatest ways
to see this. As we've argued in previous strange you
know that the canons of the early canons, Asolt canons,
the cans of the councils, you know, they lend no
credence to the Roman system and the second millennium. And
that's why you have all of these justifications.
Speaker 3: It's forgeries, you say.
Speaker 5: Which is a perfect segue to to our next point.
You know, talk a bit about the canons. We're gonna
try to cover some of the points, but the canons
of the Arabic Canons of Nicia we're going to do next.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, we could go over that.
Speaker 5: Let's see that to do all the canon things.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, the Arabic cans and Nicia. So this is
these are said to be some uh canons issued by
the Council of Nicea, defended by some Roman Catholics that
uh they were found in the East in the sixteenth century,
and they were thought to reflect some canons that might
have been destroyed by the Aryans. Because you know, we
don't have the acts of the Council of Nicea. We
just have a few. We just have the canons and
then some Syriac documents and other scraps from the historians.
So we have these Arabic canons were also cited to
to say, oh, look at this we have. But I
would say this shows what the fathers of Nicia would
have declared if they had actually believed in the papal supremacy.
I mean, I think, um, yeah, they were quoting one
of these. Yeah, and they date they were made at
least five hundred years after the Council of Nicea One
Roman Catholic who looked into these, he said they were
forged after the schism between the East and West. It
looks like they were forged in the East, maybe by
like Maronite groups or early like uh maybe Arabic speaking
missionaries of Roman of the pope. But anyway, well we
can I can read one of the canon. There's two
that really promote the papacy. So talking about of the
care and power which a patriarch has over the bishops
and archbishops of his patriarchate and of the primacy of
the ship of Rome overall. So let's see here. So
it's saying he holds the seat of Rome, is the
head and prince of all patriarchs, and as much as
he is first, who as was Peter, to whom power
is given overall Christian princes and over all their peoples,
as he who is the Vicar of Christ our Lord,
over all the peoples, and over the whole Christian Church,
and whosoever shall contradict this is excommunicated by the Senate. Okay, Yeah,
they try to get the counsel of Nicea this week
to their Yeah, modern conceptions.
Speaker 5: You can see it doesn't match with Nicia, because Nicia
as canons that promote actually different jurisdiction. The penalty is
still anathematism and not excommunication like see in the old Church,
and Peter doesn't have this central rule, and so these
canon's obviously false. It contradicts the actual concept of Nicea.
But still you would have Roman Catholic apologies. Bo's take, yousef.
I think they didn't brother actively. They used it in
one of their videos.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, next right. It was in one of their
videos or audios actually on the Papacy, where they quote
the Arabic canons of Nicea and speak of them as
though they're real cans. They don't mention that they're forgeries
and what's funny is, Yeah, what's funny is they actually
quote it from that cheft set of the nice Fathers.
I know, it's not actually all of Philip Schafts, but
that thirty eight volumes seut of the Church Fathers. They
quote from that book the Seven Ecumenical Councils by Henry Percival,
which I mean in that very book it tells you
that these are authentic. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they
were just looking through and found out something talking about
Peter and they.
Speaker 3: Quoted that lining and making big blunders.
Speaker 6: It's it's like just the introduct into those says that
they're forgeries and they're just given for historical reference. And
then another you know, after being confronted with the forgeries,
some Roman Catholics say, oh, well, you know, even if
they're not authentic, it shows what the East had believed in.
But that's that's not even the case anyway, because it's
they date after the Sism between the East and West,
maybe at least five hundred years after Nicea. Yeah, right,
So they were defended by multiple Roman Catholics I mentioned,
like that Cardinal Aguerre, yeah and others.
Speaker 5: Yeah, let's cover some other forgeries related to the canons,
as are many, like we have a full list yet,
as there is a full books that wasn't seven other pages,
so we can cover everything. But let's make some interesting
one RETI to the canons. What can we big? Yeah,
maybe interpolation. The sixth Canon is the first concept and
I seeah or misquotation of the seventy console, like you know, yeah,
a lot of stuff.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that one is well known with the sixth Canon.
So it's quite sad to see because this came pretty early,
even in the fifth century. Some people at Rome had
been tampering with the canons. So that sixth Canon, I
see um, so certain words were added to the beginning
of it, which said the Roman Church has always had
the privacy and they added these words to the beginning
of the canon. And that's not that's not found there
at all. And that's I mean in the Council of
Florence they cited this version of the cannon. And some
have tried to defend it and saying the Greeks took
those words out, But that's not found in the most
authentic manuscripts, and and and there's some good books that
mentioned the manuscript evidence of this specific canon, showing that
these words the Roman Church has always had the primacy
that's not in the original canon.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you see the Roman Catholic though they will still
quote this all the time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're not saying, by the way that you know,
Rome during its Ordos period was malicious. We just see
that we have this idea of the church, you know,
as being an hospital of theopeutic. So oftentimes you will
have you know, spiritual disease appearing in one side or
another side of the church and they are being pushed out.
So for example, ply we're not you know, saying that
all popes that does saints and so on, we're malicious.
You know, Actually many popes from it the heresy later recanted.
Just things that you know, sometimes you see such claim
appear a bit before Schism or earlier, isn't that I.
Speaker 6: Mean that is another important topic I didn't bring up
like in the notes for today. But yeah, I think
a lot of these writings attributed to the early popes
like Leo Gelasius or missed Us. A lot of these
I just don't have much faith in the Latin collections.
I really doubt the authenticity, you know, when maybe Ibarra
insists with insisting upon us some of the stronger expressions
of these popes on the Peter and so on. I mean,
when we can see different collections, we see there's a
lot of interpolation, at least when it comes to certain
of these subjects like right and Barbara.
Speaker 4: It's ubi has shown that Aborro doesn't have any of
the linguistic skills to be able to make the claims
that he does about what's authentic or not.
Speaker 3: Iborro is just a rehasher.
Speaker 6: So yeah, Ibarra, I notice he had cited a false
writing of Pope Gelasius, which like where Jelasius speaks pretty
strongly admittedly on the papacy, but it's actually not it's
not it's admitted to be an authentic by Roman Catholic scholar.
That is one of the points I mentioned. But I
think it goes far worse, except there hasn't been full
research into some of these documents that just haven't been
received much attention.
Speaker 5: But we yeah, I would say, maybe, yeah, there are
many many forgeries. An actually Dolinger, you know, we wrote
this book. He said that basically it's going to die
too early. It is just a tip of the icebag
on some quotes, you know, he studied them and he
said that you have like layers and layers and layers
and layers of qualification. Many many quotes are are that
over the centuries you have a lot of forgeries, a
lot of interpolation. Some works are destroyed because of this,
Like there are many works that that I've lost, you know,
their original intention permanently because of this.
Speaker 6: So I just want to put a counterpoint. Just I mean,
we we do know the early Church fairly reliably. It's
it's that the extent of the forgeries isn't enough to
overturn like what we know of the early Church. But
it's it is visible when we do see it, but
it doesn't minimize the the historical credibility that we have
for for the early Church.
Speaker 5: Right right, it's especially after the schism, and it's it's
in documents that were still in the West. So oftentimes
when he still has the originally in the East, you
know that we're still in different patriarch It's you will
still see the same words, but if it's stalled in
the West, you will have some troubles, But it doesn't
discredite orthodoxis obviously.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean there's a lot of documents, like preserved
the manuscripts of writings that are pretty strong against the
post open those have been faithfully preserved through the Middle
Ages and we have them today. So there wasn't I mean,
there was a it was sufficient.
Speaker 3: It's not.
Speaker 5: It's not taking over his entire thing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, exactly, that's right.
Speaker 3: And we're also dealing with.
Speaker 4: Documents and issues that Roman self, the Vatican and its
whole you know, apparatus and scholarship no longer accepts or
would appeal to.
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, I this reminds me of a good quote
by Joseph Overbeck. He wrote, he was a convert to Orthodoxy.
Speaker 3: He was a.
Speaker 6: He was in England in the eighteen hundreds or and
he was full in any language. He wrote, history was
always the weak point of the Roman Catholics, and Rome
by falsifying it has sealed her own doom. Well short quote,
oh and then GeTe. You know, he has a nice
passage where he talks about the same thing. Oh, I
don't have it in front of me though, Yeah, oh yeah,
here it is. The Orthodox Church is the heir of
the Early Church, and a faithful heir, having neither added
nor changed the doctrines of the faith. For this reason,
she is the true Apostolic Church of Christ.
Speaker 5: So okay, Yeah, and by the way, get to get
a didn't only look into Ortholoxy also had looks into
the Armenian Church when he first you know, left room,
and his research showed him that Orthodoxy clearly was the
heir to the to the early Church. Yeah, should be
in the canons.
Speaker 6: Yeah for the I mean the other big thing with
the Nicene counts. So we have the interpolation into the
sixth Canon, we have the Arabic Canons of Nicia. And
another big problem was the misattribution of the canons of
the Council of Sartoka to the Nicene Council. And those
canons of Sartika themselves, at least some of them, have
been doubted about their authenticity, but the scholarly consensus seems
to be that well is that they are authentic, but
that might still be not certain. But anyway, what we
have is that many Roman Catholics said that those canons
from Sartica, the one speaking about appeals to the Pope,
that those were actually from Nicea, and that was an
attempt to try and like, you know, make these canons
from an ecumenical council and to increase the prestigia from
even though those very canons are actually quite against the
idea of a divine Roman primacy. It's a very limited
level of appeals that are given to the pope, and
the same or more was given in the ninth Canon
of Calcidon to the pope to the patriarch of Constantinople.
So yeah, I don't see much evidence for that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you talk about so it's it's about Rome being
a court of appeal. It's it's a bit lower than
a court of appeal. It's it's okay, it's it's linked
to supremacy in honor. But in order to properly to say,
you know, it's from nick medical councils, they had to
try to smash the Canons of Sadika into the kind
of they see you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the I do want to also, I know we've
moved on past us, but I do want to stress
because this is very important book for the Trads and
it was normative for centuries after Trent. You know, the
Catechism of the Council Trent. As you note here cites
the pseudo isidor into crudles not just once, but eleven
times at least. And that's very important because if you
understand Roman cal click magisterial dogma, uh, catechisms, when they're
approved by the Roman Sea for the entire church, they
actually take on the status of universal ordinary magistarium, so
that the catechism by definition cannot be erroneous.
Speaker 3: It cannot have errors.
Speaker 4: There might be something that like a typo or something
like that, but it can't contain dogmatic errors. And here
we're talking about the foundation of the whole system, which
is the papacy, and the Catechism of Trent has eleven
at least citations of the forged Azidori into credles.
Speaker 3: I mean, this is ridiculous.
Speaker 4: So anyway, I wanted to stress that because if you're
if you're a triad, then you know the importance of
the Catechism of Trent.
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, we could go over that Catechism of Trent.
I was looking at that in the last few weeks. Yeah,
so they also cite those pseudo zidoorantecredles. Again, they found
their way into a lot of apologetic materials site Pope's Clement,
the first Anacletus, Eusebius urban the first Fabian, and melchiadis.
So yeah. You know, one example, like I had quoted earlier,
it says on the primacy of the supreme pontiff see
the third Epistle of Anaclidus, And that's an authentic document.
This pope, Anaclius is supposed to have lived around the
year eighty eight or eighty one. Eighty. Yeah. We do
have another false quotation of Saint Cyril in the Catechism
of Trent. This one is actually not as widely admitted
as a fortress. I've still seen it online and around
the internet. So it's saying, all right, so page three
nineteen of the Dublin eighteen twenty nine English translation, it's saying,
superior to all these patriarchs is the sovereign pontiff whom Cyril,
Archbishop of Alexandria denominated in the Council of Ephesus. Quote
the father and patriarch of the whole world end quote.
So and it and from the Roman Catechism. You know,
this became itself spread and re quoted elsewhere. And I'd
seen it even even in the early nineteen hundreds, in
the book called History of Dogmas. This is side. I mean,
many people just weren't careful. They just put their trust
in the Roman Catechism. Where this catechism right, even though
it was shown, it's admitted also by scholars that this
is Yeah. The German Roman Catholic scholar Joannas Koisten, he says,
the eleventh holem homily is nothing more than the fourth
we touched and enlarged between the seventh and the ninth century,
as a Erhard has already shown. So yeah, and a
lot of these forgeries. Sometimes what we'll have is the
author is that Roman Catholic accused the Orthodox of of
taking out these words of Cyril, of taking them out
from the manuscripts, or of committing forgeries themselves. But those
are also incorrect, false accusations against us.
Speaker 3: Right, exactly, all right, So where did you want to
go next?
Speaker 4: What's the next We did Arabic Canons of Niceah, what's
the next big forgery?
Speaker 3: You want to hit on?
Speaker 5: Here?
Speaker 3: Testament of Joseph I we did that.
Speaker 6: Oh, okay, we can. Well, one interesting thing is cans
the canons? Okay, so one important thing, you know, I
had done a lot of research into the Council of Trullo.
This is this is a really important council that is
almost completely ignored but a Roman Catholic apologists, and I've
seen a lot of errors in their presentation of what
happened there and how it was approved by the church.
But yeah, one of the case, so maybe the most
important to our purposes here is the thirty sixth Canon
of Trulla, which which says it's really important. I'll quote
it here. It confirms the twenty eighth Canon of Calcidon
exactly exactly. Bishop of Rome didn't like. Roman Catholics will
tell you it was rejected by the church, but here
we have the sixth documentical council specifically approving it. So yeah,
and by the way, and.
Speaker 4: By the way, and I see it too accepts Trollo.
And my understanding is that the Roman Church, when it
accepted and I see it too, initially accepted even Trollo
and the canons that deal with marriage, and then within
a few generations or maybe even a few popes then
reverse this decision.
Speaker 3: That's my understanding.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that that's fair. Yeah, that that's about it.
It's sometimes hard to follow what but for sure at
the council, and I see it the pope two different
popes specifically approved that Council of Trillo and said.
Speaker 3: It's canons exactly.
Speaker 6: Pope's Gregory the second and then Adrian the first. And
and I did quote that because yeah, Gregory calls its
canons holy canons, and then Adrian describes its canons to
the sixth Ecumenical Council. Because the main reason it was
cited is because of the eighty second Canon of Trillo,
which which talks about the icons. How it's right, how
about in an icon, So that was used by all
the iconoclasses, and they all said, this is from the
sixth Ecumenical Council. So there we have like a very
widespread acceptance.
Speaker 5: And by the way, this canon is not being followed
by Room because this canon talks about see the facts
that we should represent Christ as a human, which that
you know, represent Christ only as a sheep, because it
implies symbolism, you know that it's a symbolic sheep. Then
today you can find the pope having a big cross
with just a sheep on it, which is you know, yes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they depart Yeah, this is also the departure from
the canonical norms for the liturgy. This is why the
West goes in the direction of statuary so ironically, even
though they initially accepted this, and by the way, they should.
I always bring this up, but it seems lost on
a lot of people, like they should also accept the sonoticon,
and because that's the liturgical framework that comes out of
the Seventh Synod. I mean, I don't somebody should. I'm
sure somebody knows. I don't actually know why Rome doesn't
accept the synoticon. I mean, it's just the summation of
you know, the anathemas and the views of the Seventh Council.
So if you do accept the Seventh Council, I don't
know why you wouldn't accept the snoticon. But you know,
it actually condemns Plato, it condemns Aristotle, condemns Hellenism pretty extensively.
Speaker 3: In many places, we sing it, you.
Speaker 4: Know, if you if you've seen the full the full
Snoticon or recite it on Sunday Orthodoxy.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 4: And it also summarizes the appropriate you know, the approach
to icons as well. But this is where you start
to see departure, uh in the West. And I'm not
saying everybody in the West is lost because of this.
These are just elements that creep in that suggest a
departure in terms of faith.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: Again, they're not all heretics yet, but it's at the
beginning of a departure, and the departure is seen in
the changes in the liturgy, is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'm not sure that the fact that in
those canons that you know, save the icons, you know,
saved this or macanopolism in the the canon of the
sixth consoles that you know made the same console right
more authorted, it's telling that Rome you know, which claims
your authority for the console, just doesn't follow it exactly.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I would like to quote this thirty sixth canon
because it's I would say, it's really important. It says
this is from the sixth Documental Council in Trilo, So,
renewing the enactments by the one hundred and fifty fathers
assembled that the God protected and Imperial city and those
of the six hundred and thirty who met at Chalcidon,
we decree that the Senate of Constantinople shall have equal
privileges with the Sea of Old Rome, and shall be
highly regarded in ecclesiastical matters as that is, and shall
be second after it, after Constantinople shall be ranked the
Sea of Alexandria, then of Antioch, and afterwards the Sea
of Jerusalem. So that's the canon's It's interesting in Gracian's
edition the eleventh century Cannons, he inserts the word not
saying the sea of constant Nople shall is not to
be as highly regarded in ecclesiastical matters, and then he
used the word similar privileges instead of equal privileges. But
it's still worth no, I mean, still in evidence, I
was accepted, at least in the West that this canon
did enter their collections and then confirm, if I might
follow up, from the Seventh Council did confirm these canons
as coming from the sixth Council. So if the Seventh
Council was wrong about this, then I mean, then we
don't have any certainty of what's acumenical, because okay, I
would like to read Tarasius's he was the patriarch of
Constantinople and was one of the presidents at the second Council,
and I see it or the seventh Council so he says,
some persons laboring under the malady of ignorance, have taken
the fence at these canons, and ask are these really
the canons of the sixth Council. Let all such know therefore,
that the sixth Holy Council was assembled under Constantine against
those who maintained the One Will and opinion in Christ,
and that after these fathers had anathematized the heretics and
clearly set forth the Orthodox faith, they returned home. In
the fourteenth year of Constantine. Four or five years after
that event, the same fathers were again assembled by Justinian,
the son of Constantine, that's Justinian the second, who then
laid down the above mentioned canons. Let no one have
any scruple about them, since the same fathers who subscribed
under Constantine were the very same who subscribed in this
role which you see here under Justinian, as is evident
from the exact similarity of the handwriting. And it was
but right that they who had presented to the world
in ecumenical council should also enact ecclesiastical canons. And the
Holy Council replied approvingly to what he said. And I
mean this council in trueau is really important because the
Roman Catholic historians, they're conciliar historians. They say, this is
a senate of the devil. It's a diabolic senator to
a pseudo synod, a malignant convention.
Speaker 3: How dumb. That's crazy?
Speaker 4: And in your note where are you in your notes
at this point?
Speaker 3: Thirteen fourteen?
Speaker 6: I guess this would be five, I think? But did
I reorganize these? I hope this is the latest version
the Gracian's edition of the thirty six canon.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I was way ahead of you, My bad.
Speaker 6: But we've been jumping around, I think. But yeah, so
we could go on to several other topic.
Speaker 3: Did you cite zero point six?
Speaker 5: There?
Speaker 3: Didn't you mention this convert the Anglican convert or not?
Speaker 6: Oh? Oh no, I didn't say that. Yeah, this is
also important. It's interesting. I just came across it this week.
I was reading this book Thomas William Allies. He wrote
a great book actually called It's about the Sysm of
the Anglican Church, but he really defends orthodoxy. It's a
great book against the papacy. But he ended up converting
to Roman because Thoism, which is really interesting. Later on
in life, but that was mostly because of the problems
the Church of England had in the middle of the
nineteenth century, because of certain political and ecclesiastical decisions he
didn't like and which kind of showed that it wasn't
it wasn't very you know, it didn't meet kind of
the way the true Church should be acting, you know,
enforced by political considerations. But anyway, he wrote a couple
of books such as The Sea of Peters, The Rock
of the Church, Rocky Union, and I mean I looked
into some of his references. He makes a lot of
these same errors, Like he refers to the Latin versions
of the Acts of the Council of Chalcedon. Yeah, that's
another big issue. I didn't mention here because it requires
more of a like scholarly type examination of manuscripts. But
when you look at Latin versus Greek editions of texts,
you know, letters, councils, we often find that the Latin
version was interpolated in certain points having to do with
the papacy. I mean, it's to such an extreme degree
that the Roman Catholics retort that the Greeks actually removed
some of these testimonies. But I mean the at least
in the case of CalCon, we have an authentic, earlier
Latin translation that contradicts the interpolated Latin edition. And that
was I think one of the points I'd mentioned. But yeah,
as for Thomas William Allies, he yeah, here's a quote
from him. I'll just quote him and then we'll see
what the actual council says. So he says, this Seventh
Council rejecting a former great council of some hundred bishops
held thirty years before at Constantinople from being general. That's
the Iconoclass council says, quote, how was it great and universal?
For it had not the countenance of the Roman Pope
of that time, nor of the bishops who are about him,
nor by his legates, nor by an encyclical letter of
the Pope, as the law of councils requires. But oh, then,
so I was interested, because it's a pretty strong claim
to say this is what the Seventh Council said. But
I went and found I found the place he referenced
in Mancy, which is Volume thirteen, page two oh seven,
and I look there and the true passage in the
Acts of the Council. We do have a translation from
Joseph Mendem of those acts, it says, again, how could
that be great or acumenical which the presidents of other
churches have never received or assented to, but which, on
the contrary, they have anathematized. It had not as its
fellow helper the then Pope of Rome or his conclave.
Neither was it authorized by his legate nor by encyclical
from him, as the custom is in councils. Neither do
we find that the patriarchs of the East of Antioch,
Alexandria and the Holy City did at all consent there too,
nor any of their great doctors or high priests. So
it's quite it's it's not faced, pretty honest, I think
to just end the quote when it's just talking about
bits of a Roman not mentioned that all these other
patriarchates were required. We're considered important components, you know, for ecumenicity, right,
all right, So let's.
Speaker 3: Let's move through some of these.
Speaker 4: We got more of these to get through here, So ye,
what are the more We'll pick out some of the
more important ones as we move on here.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we've covered many, many canons and things
between two consoles. Everything's on the book. Anyway, I think
we should move on to some patristic forgeries in the
album's finish and the zero point twenty twenty seven and
twenty eight.
Speaker 4: We definitely, we definitely want to hit fifteen because of
Francis to Sale. I mean, he you know, has one
of the most popular apologetic works, calvin Controversy, which was
written Calvinists, and I've actually I used to give that
book out when I was a traed Catholic.
Speaker 6: So oh yeah, there's yeah, Catholic Controversy. It's there are
a few more issues I found in that book besides yeah,
besides what I mentioned. Yeah, we could go definitely go
over that. Let's see. So yeah, Francis the sales, so
he does make a lot of quite a few errors
Catholic Controversy.
Speaker 3: Let me, uh, that's just my famous apologetic book.
Speaker 4: So I don't recall at the top of my head
if he how many papal documentsy sites in the text.
I mean, I know he does because he argues for
you know, kind of the key points against the Protestants
of particularly the Calvinists in that book. So he is
going to be arguing for the premiacy of the Pope Rome.
So I don't know all the time my head what
documentcy sites, but I feel like, you know, that's that's
his most famous, I think work, other than some of
his more you know, practical writings.
Speaker 6: That he did. Yeah, okay, I I do have my
notes on that.
Speaker 5: I just skimmed through it.
Speaker 6: So, okay, Francis The Sales to Catholic Controversy was published
London eighteen eighty six. And and you know, all old
books are available digitized online. Almost everything before nineteen twenty
three is in the public domain, so that makes it
great for anyone with internet access. You can find these
yourself and verify these. You don't have to go to
a public library or university anyway. Yeah, his book on
papal authority, so he cites the spurious letter of Saint
Clement to Saint James, the Lord's brother. On page two
hundred and eighty he ascribes the life. I'm just listening
them off when I made my notes. He ascribed the
life of Clement to Pope Damasis. That's the supposed author
of the Liber pontificalis it wasn't him. He also believed
there were more than more than twenty nice seen cannons.
He cites a spirious athenation letter to Pope Felix the
second Well, this letter, I'll quote it here. It's saying,
Francis the Sales Rights that in the Council of Nicia
had been determined that it was not lawful to celebrate
any council without the consent of the Holy See of Rome,
but that the canons which had been made to that
effect had been burnt by the Aryan heretics. So this
is where you kind of get that background to the
Arabic Cans of Nicia. Maybe that's what prompted them, like, oh,
maybe these cans were burned, so these were the real
But no, we have sufficient testament. There's only twenty canons
and half of of the Roman Catholic Council historian he
proves that, okay, he cites h He also says that
no other bishop than the pope was called successor of
Peter or head of the Church. But I mean that's
not true, because I found John Chrisosen speaks of Saint
Ignatius of Antioch as a successor of Peter in Antioch,
and then Athanasius is also called head of the church
in an.
Speaker 5: Honors as a full patristic collection, calling other fathers successor
of Peter, and calling all the bishops successor of Peter.
I just notes that front the sell fren seas of
Sales as you call him, Uh is also a doctor
of the church, as a third doctor of the church.
In this one hour, is that we see profusely accurting forgeries.
Speaker 6: M yeah. He cites this twice the pseudo Isidorian letter
of Anacletus, although the first citation is actually from the
letter of Cirsius and but taken out of context, cites
the spirit uh spirrious pseudo Isidorian degree of Marcellus. The
spirrious synt of Sinusa is all on page two ninety one,
a Spirit's letter to Pope damass He misrepresents the Council
of Carthage, which was by Saint Cyprian against the Bishop
of Bishops. He's saying that that wasn't relevant to Rome,
even though the context is clearly against Rome. And then
and then he says no one else was called the
universal Pope other than the Bishop up of Rome, and
that's not true since other people that take that title,
like the heretic Diascorus. He also claimed, you know, he
used that title like of acumenical Father or universal public.
He cites the spirioud letter of Saint Ignatius to certain
Mary on page two ninety four, and then he references
to apocryphal epistles by Saint Marshall page seventy nine and
page one seventy nine, So that those are the notes
I made of his book. And there's any other stuff
that aren't like outright forgeries, but just you know, bad
arguments that take more time to get into.
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe some other patristic quotes. So it takes with
a variation of Cyprince the unitat That would be great
because that's something that comes up oftentimes. Su Saint Cyprin
is very famous for saying also that the church there
is no salvation. Roman Catholic people who see whose scientists
often forget that there's no proof that in Cyprin actually
reconciled with the Church of Rome, so he might have
died in schism be from So in this context seems
saying that there is no salvation outside the church means
that he doesn't think of the church as being centralized
in Rome specifically. But some of his texts are the
one that has the more variation, and that probably was
the most subjected to to to forgeries over these centuries.
And Dullinger goes it goes a long way about this
in his book on Rome. Maybe you have something to
add on the variation in cyprin the United.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that is a complicated thing they discussed since this
is actually one where Roman Catholics have sort of like
thought back if you will, and like try to defend
the authenticity of the very the variations by saying that
Cyprian wrote two editions of this of his book, with
some containing all these passages about how you need to
be in commune with the See of Peter and things
like that. But they can't decide which edition you wrote first.
Some say there's a third edition. It's it's kind of
complicated to follow. But I would just recommend read to
read Benson's He's an Anglican scholar, Edward Wry Benson's book
on Cyprian eighteen ninety seven. He summarized in about thirty
pages the manuscript evidence. I mean, all the best manuscripts
don't contain these passages. Okay, some we see certain passages
saying about like does he who deserts the sea if
Peter deserts the Church of Christ, and that's that's not
that's only found in this what's called the interpolated version
or the patrine text of Cyprian's Tat, which is all
about the unity of the Church, and it's all perfectly
in harmony with orthodox ecclesiology. About you have these bishops
and they form a harmony. There isn't like he had
so many occasions to mention a monarch of the church,
but there isn't one.
Speaker 4: Right because it was always there. And it was also
never there because it was in seed form and it
had to grow.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: This is a typically stupid argument.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's an acorn that you know, grow into a
banana tree. Yeah, I mean, you know, even if it devolved,
it absolutely doesn't show. It's the same some fruits, And
like T. J.
Speaker 3: Kirk, we know what they like to do with the
bananas that they have in Rome. So so let's see
what's the next one. Let's move on. So we're going
to get through some more of these. Here's the next.
Speaker 5: Let's let's go in Augustine.
Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, yeah, this one, it's kind of an older
one by still seeing it around. It's his popular quotation
Roma lokey to est causa finita est so translated as
Roma spoken the cause is finished or and that's that's
not actually what Augustine says, and it but what Roman
Catholics have since tried to do is say it is
actually a correct summary of what he was saying, even
though he mentions two councils which had convened Roma Loki
to est. Yeah, it's obviously from Augustin's Seven Books against
the Duntists. He didn't believe in what the Vatican Council
in eighteen seventy defined about the supremacy of the pope
and his supremacy to even councils. So yeah, this it's
been cited as from Augustine, but it's completely an authentic Yeah,
it's funny. One German Jesus writing just after the Vatican
Council is the German Jesuit Weininger. In eighteen seventy one,
he wrote, all the Holy Fathers said with Saint Augustine.
As soon as the Pope pronounced a judgment in matters
of faith, Rome has spoken, the cases decided, and he
makes this Jesuit makes the radical claim that all the
Holy Fathers from Hermas in the first century dot dot dot,
without a single exception, thought the Pope to be infallible
in the sense of the Vatican Decree of eighteen seventy's.
It's such a radical claim. And I'm I mean, you
can see what he said. I mean, it's not right.
We know many fathers didn't believe in the Vatican Decree
of eighteen seventy Are the equivalent really strange?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's ludicrous.
Speaker 5: Okay, we've got some embers maybe something. But the philio
quinns the purgatory, so let's talk in the purgatory point seventeen.
Speaker 6: Oh brooked. Okay, yeah, this is somewhat less lesser known.
But I did come across it. It was mentioned by
some I found when I was reading some Anglican books
against the Roman supremacy. Okay, did I want to see
anything more on the roma? Lucky to ask. I don't
know if we should give more context to that one.
Speaker 3: Now we need to move on and half on.
Speaker 6: Oh wow, okay, yeah then then let's yeah, we could
hurry up. Yeah. So these spirious epistles, they were invented
around let's say the twelve nineties or the early thirteen hundreds.
It just they're supposed to give evidence that there was
some purgatory in belief, but one quick proof that it
was false. And what's funny is that the story is
found in an epistle attributed to Saint Cyril about an
apparition of Saint Jerome, like that Saint Jerome appeared to
Saint Cyril after Jerome died. But what's failed to this
assertion is that Jerome outlived Cyril, and Jerome actually wrote
the life of Saint Cyril.
Speaker 5: So we know that.
Speaker 6: That the chronology is.
Speaker 4: Well well, time can reverse, so appeal to the time
reversal argument.
Speaker 6: You, yeah, that's that the argument, right.
Speaker 5: One more about like the something about the video? Quick,
so many everything is in this book, but yeah, one
more of the philo quins, and I want us to
finish on point twenty seven twenty eight. But like principal
Peter Damien's misquotation of the father and the local already
already showed some manuscript where the philocu was added. Just
noted everything is right after the schism, you know when
Rome needs to justify the skid, and it's everything goes faster.
Speaker 3: After this key point.
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, I spent some time looking into that,
and yeah, two of the main letters where Saint Peter
Damien in the eleventh century is arguing against the Orthodox
ten out of the twenty two Patristic authorities on the
procession of the Holy Spirit are misquoted. So that's the summary.
I mean, I do show that with evidence to document that. So,
but that's the high level.
Speaker 4: Are these misquotes like all these are actually texts to
deal with economia and not the ontological relationship of the
Spirit to the Father as a soule cause?
Speaker 3: Or are they like outright just like fake quote?
Speaker 6: Yeah, like like textual errors like like either that maybe
it's not his fault or but maybe his source was
an error, but it's yeah, whatever he's citing, it does
not it misses certain components. You know what I have?
Speaker 3: I have the Jurgon I think it's William Jurgens. Have
you familiar with that.
Speaker 4: It's a three volume set that's kind of popular for
run the Catholic apologetics and all it is is a
three volume set of quote minds.
Speaker 3: Mmm, I have heard of I have one or two.
Speaker 4: Volumes of the Jurgon set, and I would bet you
money because it's an older series that it's relying on
a lot of these forgeries.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he also used the donation of Constantine as well.
Back to that. But besides you, okay, there's other stuff. Yeah.
Maybe the most serious thing is he actually doesn't even
know the council that the Creed of n I see you.
And that's one of the strangest things I came across.
I mean, that's he says, he quotes it as council,
and I see it as saying we believe in the
Holy Spirit, who proceeds properly from the Father. And but
you know, in the Creed it just says he proceeds
from the Father. And then Damien makes a an argument
based on that word properly to say that the at
least it it's not referring to the Father in such
a way that the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3: This is, I mean, this is devastating to the whole
people thing I don't. I mean, this is ludicrous.
Speaker 6: I don't know about the Roman Catholic editor says, the
source on that seems to be a spurious writing a
scripteacher realm. But yeah, so maybe it wasn't. It wasn't
Damian himself forging it. But I mean, obviously he should
have been more careful, he should have known the creed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's ludicrous.
Speaker 5: What's next, Okay, moving on so point twenty seven, this
is in French, I can actually agree to. When when
the the Catholic you know, when they were faced with
the Protestant you know, who were seeing you know, a
lot of these false traditions. We were seeing the room
to call the power, and they refused that. You know,
the Germans one had access to to a Bible, to
scripture in the Langue which it propped up. You know,
this idea of solar scriptura as this idea of rejecting tradition,
and this in itself is already showing that Rome is
not coherent with the early Church because the early Church
used Latin, because it was the Vulgar language. You know,
that's where the name the Vulgar come from. You have
seen photios who say, oh, you know, you should as
a cathecam and you should read the Bible, you should
read the apocryphy, and you should be the church fathers.
You should even read some pagan argument to be able
to dispel them. It doesn't much be for Sincilians and
Methodists who actually created vernacular languages to evangelize, and Rome
tried to centralize this bar around the language, and that's
why you had the back clash with the personalt Reformation.
They refused tradition because there were feelings that you know,
tradition added. Rome added things to a post tradition, and
that's why the rever to the Bible. But they didn't
have their own Bible. And that's where the old solascupture
conndrum come from.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 5: And what's very funny is that in order to counter
some of the Protestant claim, they actually were rewritings in French.
So when they gave it to in the vernacular language,
they exchanged it and they added some of the dogma.
I don't know if you want me to read some
of them, but you have you have stuff that.
Speaker 3: Added.
Speaker 5: So in one current, in three they added of the
purgatory the sea sea miler can't situde for a comparat
So if if anemone's work should be burnt, he should
suffer loss, but himself should be saved yet as by
the fire of purgatory. There's another one. If you want
to to to continue, yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm glad you read that I was gonna
ask he did.
Speaker 5: It's another one, and I want you to to quote
when you mentioned the Roman faith.
Speaker 6: So there's that passage First Timothy, for one, where Saint
Paul says in the latter times some shall depart from
the Roman faith. So the La foy Romaine they add
this extra thing.
Speaker 5: You know, directly targeted and you know owens a lot
of time, you know, so starting unrest and you know
this idea of apocalyptic thing because the Preston started it.
Speaker 4: Okay, so maybe in the second half we'll we'll get
some of these super chats. I'm going to give a
little bit of an overview of my take on some
of the forgeries. We're going to get a few more
comments on the accusation from George uh Well, the accusations
that rom Mecalock's made against your Orthodox about forgeries.
Speaker 3: I want to ask him a few questions about the forgeries.
Speaker 5: Go ahead, this is meta mean to zev forge document.
Speaker 3: That's great.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is yeah. If you can close this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then I'm gonna if you want to, we're
gonna do this second half right after this, So this
will go up immediately to subscribers to Jay's analysis, and
then I apologize for being late for the second half
of the.
Speaker 3: Genesis Lecture six.
Speaker 4: Well, that should be done tomorrow, so I'll have the
story of Joseph completed tomorrow for subscribers.
Speaker 3: Apologize for being late for that.
Speaker 4: But let's read these supertest real quick before we move
to the second half.
Speaker 3: For the subs.
Speaker 4: The first question, well, I want to welcome a new member.
So well, he disappeared, so I guess maybe he's not
a member. I don't know, but generic man with no name.
Thank you for joining. If you joined, and if you left, goodbye, Gigi.
Speaker 3: She sends ten bucks. Thank you, Gigi.
Speaker 4: Former trad Welcome to the stream. Armando Sanchez, He's a
new member of Silver Member. Thank you, Amanda for joining.
M much appreciate. Nikodimus the Pharisee ten dollars. In Saint
Gregory the Great's book Morals is book two, number ninety
two authentic. It reads, the Man Jesus Christ and all
things hath him both always and continually present for the
same spirit, even as substance proceeds from him off the cuff.
It wouldn't be a problem because the Man Jesus Christ
is a statement about the economia, and nobody denies that
the Spirit comes from the Son. Now, the word proceedeth
there doesn't necessarily mean the technical way that it's used
in the Orthodox terminology, right, so the procession of the
Spirit in the Weast, it can just mean coming from.
And that's why they didn't really understand why in the East,
generation and procession were seen to be technical technically different
as to movements from the Father. They just thought it
meant coming from. So that's part of the reason that
there's confusion of the filioquay. But in this in this instance,
I don't have Gregor's book in front of me.
Speaker 3: I could go look later.
Speaker 4: But my conclusion is that this wouldn't even be a
problem anyway, because nobody has a problem believing that the Son,
when he's incarnate, sends the Holy Spirit. That has nothing
to do, however, with determining the hyposthetic origin of the
Holy Spirit. And that's why the Fathers always make the
distinction between the economic trinity and the ontological trinity. Right,
So his hyposthetic origin is not the same thing as
the Son sending the Spirit into time and space, into history.
Speaker 5: So yeah, we cooverased this in the life with the
Church of thes We give the arguments of Saint Potios
on this topic, it collapses into trinity. If you ad
a video queen on the level.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you also get a bunch of stupid arguments too
that are stated in reference to the economy. You know,
the spirit of the Father or the spirit of the Son,
or the Holy Spirit. You know, did the Holy Spirit
generate if you can read economia back into the godhead,
does the Holy Spirit generate the sun? Because the Holy
Spirit is who overshadowed Mary. I mean, the reading economia
back into the Godhead would lead to the most ridiculous
conclusions that not even Roman Catholics would admit.
Speaker 3: This, although they will constantly cite the Church fathers.
Speaker 4: Inaccurately in statements about the economy and read that back
into the Godhead, so they don't know what they're talking about.
Russian anime bought by the way, that patristic set that
I mentioned from Jurgons, the whole section on the phillyoquay,
it literally does that. They're all statements about economia. So
Jurgons didn't even know the distinction between the ontological trinity
and the economic trinity, so he just cites all these
things about Jesus sending the Holy Spirit to the apostles
of Pentecost that proves the eternal procession of the Spirit
from the Sun. This is ridiculous, anime bought five bucks.
Trads are shaking and spamming right now.
Speaker 3: Good work, Guy's good. That's what we want.
Speaker 4: You got to go through that phase of shaking and spamming,
so hopefully we can win the trads over to our side.
Speaker 3: We won quite a few. A lot of this chat
itself are former trads.
Speaker 4: I'm a former tried so we're glad to hear that
they're shaking, and eventually they will be on our side
down the road, Lord Willing Xander Volpe seven seventy seven,
Great talk, gentlemen, Well thank you, Xander. Are you the
same Xander from Buffy the vent Pireslar Golden Arm two
thousand and seven.
Speaker 3: Ten bucks.
Speaker 4: Keep up the good work. We'll keep up those fat
super chats, Golden Arm, and I will always keep up
the good work.
Speaker 3: Much appreciated. And then we got.
Speaker 4: James Plantage Nay twenty dollars. Maybe he can expose Snack
as one of the Meryvingian bloodlines and we can know
for sure that snack actually is illuminate confirm. He is
the descendant of Charlemagne exposed illuminate confirm.
Speaker 3: All right, so we're gonna move on now into the
second half.
Speaker 5: Go ahead, just maybe a closing statement, Yeah, yeah, a
small part. All case here was too sure that we
can see specifically, forgery is being used consistently in Rome
in a systemic manner. So that's why it's a real argument.
It's not you know, we're not discarding stuff. It's a
real argument that we can use. The baby has been
built on forgeries. It is systemic and all of these
other of the sources are on the book of George,
and it is being prepared. We're trying to get it published.
So if you have a closing statement as well, George,
maybe plugging your book a little bit before the end
of this part.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this book looks great, by the way, I mean
the chapter that you've got, it's just like a chapter.
Speaker 3: Is this an outline of the book.
Speaker 5: We will send you the book.
Speaker 3: No, I mean I mean this page that like the
ten pages saying that we have here the twenty nine points.
Is that going to be the chapters or is that
just well, that is.
Speaker 6: A summary from what I have written already, I condensed
some of the well many of the points into into
these bullets. And yeah, I can definitely send you a
copy of the PDF. I did send it in Discord,
but it as a Google drive like.
Speaker 5: It's more than seven hundred pages. It's it's one of
the most complete things I've ever seen. I've schemed through it.
It's it's very useful for apologetics. It shows the evolution
in room, it shows the evolution of ideas from the
pre schism the Church, from the early Roman Catholic Church.
It covers consuls, it covers soldieries, it coverss the evolution
of practices, and it's it's clearly one of the most
complete books. And I really hope it does get published,
and I really open many of the subscribers here would
get interested in it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, whether whether he self publishes or whether we
get a publisher, I'll definitely feature it on the website.
I mean, I can already tell it's going to be
a bad so uh, it'll definitely be recommended in my
in my recommended reading list for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no problem. Anything else you guys want to leave
us with.
Speaker 4: That gave a good awesome, all right you Yeah, If
you want to subscribe to Jays Analysis, you can do
so here on the channel and the join button, or
you can subscribe over at Jasonelso's dot dot com under
the purchase membership link, and you'll have access to all.
Speaker 3: The vast archives of the last four or five years of.
Speaker 4: A treasure trove of material, interviews, lectures, podcasts, et cetera,
all the part twos, and then we will immediately do
part two of this right now and that'll be available
after the show it's complete.
Speaker 3: So thank you guys tonight, everybody, have a good night.
Thank you for those super chats, and God bless