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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peakingana Show.

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Thomas is back and we're gonna start something new.

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Speaker 2: Hey doing Thomas, I'm well, thank you thanks for hosting me.

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Speaker 1: Of course we have gotten several requests for your take

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on the Balkans Wars, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, maybe even talk about

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Tito a little bit. But yeah, where do you want

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to Where do you want to start this one.

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Speaker 2: Today? I anticipate this series naturally kind of like organically

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we'll go three episodes obviously as your show, figuratively and literally,

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we'll go as many as you wish on the topic.

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What I'd like to do today, I'm want to focus

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on what the Croatians called the Homeland War. That was

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the war that approximately was caused by you know, Croatis

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declaration to pay in Croatia and Macedonia essentially seceding from

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the Yugoslavian political structure in nineteen ninety one, and the

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Serbian response to that, and the relationship of that to

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the situation then underway in the Soviet Union, and what Berlin,

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where Helmet Cole was still consler at the time, what

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Berlin's response was, how the world in turn reacted to

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that and what the relationship of that constellation, effectors and

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those developments were on the situation in the Soviet Union,

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which was at that time very volatile. In the second episode,

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I think we should get into the history of the

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Independent State of Croatia. I've got a particular interest in

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Croatia for a few reasons, and they were especially for

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such a small country. They played an important and very

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outsized role in the Access Alliance, Okay, but also it's

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key to understanding what happened not just in the Homeland War,

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but in the Bosnian War and later in the adjacent

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conflicts like that, you know, in Kosovo, where Croatia wasn't

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a combatant party, but Croatia and what Croatia did or

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did not do was instrumental in how events developed. And Croatia,

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it's inarguable this isn't some Slam and Serbian people or

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anything of the sort. You know, Croatia is the most

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insinuated into the kind of Western conceptual paradigm. I mean,

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part of that is for very pragmatic strategic reasons. Part

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of that is for reasons of values and for lack

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of a better term, familiarity. But Croatia and particularly Tujiman,

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who was at the helm of Croatia as it achieved independence.

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He was a he was in some ways a kind

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of perfect foil to almost in like manny Keian terms,

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so Melosovich and he was a very unique individual, and

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I think he was one of the most significant figures

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of the later twentieth century. So I want to today,

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I want to I want to get into the the

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conditions that led to the the Homeland War with a

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focus on, you know, the Croatian internal situation. Next time,

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I think we should deal with the Second World War

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and the constellation of factors therein and the independent state

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of Croatia. And then in the final episode, I think

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we should deal with the Serbian situation, like their internal

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situation and more of like a deep capacity and what

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the relationship of that is to what I believe was

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you know, the kind of the kind of final like

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poisoning of relations between you know, the United States and

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the Russian Federation was when America assaulted Serbia nineteen ninety

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nine without provocation. So that's the way I think it

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should break down, if that's agreeable to both you and subscribers.

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But there's a lot here, so bear with me, and

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there's terms that I'll do my best to clarify as

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we go, But go ahead, it all sounds good to me. Okay, No, great,

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There's terms that I will define as we go, but

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aren't going to be fully fleshed out until we get

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into the deep dive context of you know, there the

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significance of these of these things. So bear that in

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mind too. I will I will come back to anything

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that seems ambiguous, and I'm aware that a lot of

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the seams ambiguous to the uninitiated. The key to understanding

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how things developed in the way Yugoslavia broke apart, particularly

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what guided decision making in the Croatian Control Group around

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tu Jaman, You've got to understand what was underway vis

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are the Bush forty one administration and why they were

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so zealously behind Gorbachev and Chevin Narze, who was a

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Grbachev's you know, top advisor. He was kind of the

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man behind Perastrika in conceptual and policy terms. There was

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this basic concord between you know, Bush and James Baker

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and uh people within you know Bush and Baker's orbit,

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like Brent Scowcroft, you know, contra the team b Coterie

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kind of best exemplified by people like were most purely

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exemplified by people like Cheney, you know, who wanted who

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wanted who wanted the Soviet Union dismantled and and and

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kind of you know laid prostrate and the most you know,

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and the and the most complete and punitive way possible.

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Bush and Bakers. Uh kind of absolute imperative was that

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they wanted to preserve the Soviet structure, not its internal constitution,

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but it's basic structure. It's like kind of you know,

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essentially administrated government, mental organizational modality until full disarmament had

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benefit accomplished. Okay, you know, total nuclear disarmament, a drawing

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down of Soviet conventional forces, you know, to something minuscule,

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you know, to to to levels of some kind of

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like internal you know, constabulary element. And only then would

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there be discussion about, you know, moving forward, like how

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the Soviet Union would be structured or whether it would

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continue to exist at all. You know, it ending up

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with you know, tanks Uh in a in red Square

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and Yeltson literally banning the Communist Party, declaring himself President

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of the New Russian Federation and then holding what I'm

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on to do you know, like an add doct plebiscite

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that was totally at odds with what the Bush administration

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wanted to develop, Okay, and why that became possible in

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an indirect but essential way was impacted by what happened

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in Yugoslavia. And for people wh think I'm overemphasizing this,

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there's a fascinating memo that circulated the Department of State.

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I mean, all the minutes of any like official meeting

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between the Secretary of State and his Soviet counterpart or

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the or the Soviet chief executive would obviously, you know,

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be widely circulated. May eleventh of eighty nine, Gorbachev met

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with Baker and Chevin Nards. It was present to the

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topic of discussion was, uh, was force levels in Europe

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with a particular focus on nuclear weapons, and Garbage Off

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initiated the conversation by putting it to Baker, I know,

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because we know, you know through our intelligence apparatus that

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you're planning to deploy you know, a missile platform in

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the nineteen nineties that's analogous to the then very feared

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you know, Soviet SS twenty three, and uh, you know

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this is a problem you know it, uh, Grocha is

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basically like I, you know, I'm not concerned with how

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this looks on the perspective of a reality, but obviously

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we need some kind of guarantee from you that you know,

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you're not gonna you're not gonna You're not gonna pursue

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these hyper advanced like next generation like strategic nuclear weapons platforms.

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We need to guarantee from you that that's not going

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to happen, you know, before we go any further here.

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Gorrichoff further said that he and Warsaw he and his

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warsaw Peck counterparts were prepared to conduct negotiations on a

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total draw down tactical nuclear forces, you know, just outright

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and uh, as well as the abolition of the nuclear

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capability of you know, quote du dual purpose platforms primarily

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cruise missiles, you know, basically put placing them beyond use,

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as far as being married the nuclear warheads. Okay, if

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all this seems very esoteric, but that's my whole point, okay,

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is that you know, this was this was the issue,

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the only issue really in the minds of Bush and Baker,

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you know. In Bush forty one, he was described by

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Conda Leeza Reyes is constantly cautious. I think that's that's

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the wrong way to characterize it. Calculating, yes, you know,

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incredibly thorough, Yes, but uh Bush was thinking systemically. And

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that's exactly like, that's exactly the the the model that

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Nixon had for bringing about, you know, the the end

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of UH Soviet hard power, you know, by negotiated means,

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you know. And I I invoked that because I don't

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I don't think anybody could say that Nixon was cautious. Okay,

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the UH or chaf Further, the remainder of the discussion

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is reflected in the minutes memorializing the memo. He basically

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click ticks off a list of concession as the Soviets

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have made. You know, they would draw on over five

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hundred uh tactical nuclear munitions from the European theater. If

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they could expect reciprocity from NATO, they they they'd be

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willing to withdraw all nuclear forces, tactical nuclear forces, more

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self packed territory between that day in nineteen ninety one,

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you know, and obviously tactical nuclear weapons to the Soviets

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were uh, this was this was this was within this

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was this was literally a local threat, you know. I

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mean that's why if there seems to be a strange

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imbalance and you know, kind of the the types of

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forces that are emphasized, I mean, that's that that should be.

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I mean, obviously people have basically understand a geography anybody

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who's bothering to listen to these talks that we have,

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but people might not be familiar with, you know, the

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strategic and tactical distinction is applied to weapons platforms like

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that's that's why these battlefield nuclear weapons are of such

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a concern to Moscow, Like then is now okay? Because

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deployed in the European theater that that's got they've got

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tremendous destructive power, and that that has implications for you know, uh,

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for first strike as well as myriad other things the

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second uh interestingly too. Gorbichoff says he's convinced that there's

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a special working group within the National Security Council as

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well as the intelligence community in Washington that's working to

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discredit Pair of Strike up and that Robert Gate is

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probably behind this effort and this needs to be openly

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discussed less you know, public opinion, you know, converge around

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this kind of narrative, and as as I've indicated before,

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like CIA at this point was really something of a joke,

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although they did still have some power to impact perception

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and particularly through public diplomacy efforts. And Gorbacheff I believe

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is absolutely right. Like CI, at that point, Aldridge Aims

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had sold out every human asset they had behind the

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Iron curtain, all of whom, of course, had been unceremoniously

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executed by KGB and gru So CIA was not just

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flying blind, but you know, them pretending that it's forever

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nineteen sixty. I mean that they that was their raison

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detra you know, so grow Withrow's basically going down the

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list of things that can potentially derail this sort of

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disarmam and Concord and UH Bakers you know, playing it

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close to the chest, but obviously warming up to these,

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to these, to these do these efforts by Moscow, and

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you know he's he guarantees UH an elimination of you know,

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any kind of tactically symmetry as regardless tactical forces, and

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being in Europe, you know, immediately be followed up by

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you know, a further draw down in total nuclear forces

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and UH the emphasis uh by Baker as well as

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you know what's emerging from the White House and visa

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via Bush's uh contentious dealings with Poland and some of

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the other Warsaw Pact satellites, the opposition elements in these states,

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you know, Uh, Bush is essentially insisting on patients and

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you know, people particularly like Valenca, who despised allow this

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process to work, and that negotiation has to come from

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the top down, meaning uh, you know, agreements between Moscow

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and and and Washington, and only then, you know, can

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we talk about the future of the satellite states and

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transition to you know, normalized government outside of you know,

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the the captives oviate orbit. So obviously we'll move on here.

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But this is obviously like this was obviously an extraordinarily

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delicate minuet. Even if there was general stability in the

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Balkan theater and other potential kind of flashpoint locales, you

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know it, Uh, it would require a real commitment probably

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over two administrations on you know, on on on the

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American side, who were you know, fully committed to the

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program and as and and and reciprocally in Moscow. It

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would have required I mean, garbage off ended up being

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very long lived. But it would have required Grbachoff retaining

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his mandate probably for the subsequent decade, and if not

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he himself, you know, uh, a protege who could be

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expected to essentially carry out exactly the policy program outlined

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by Shepard Nardsen and you know, kind of the Perastrika concepts.

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What was happening in Yugoslavia at this time. Yugoslavia was

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outside of the warsawf HAAG orbit you know, they they

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and they uh they were treated after the cruise, chief

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thought led to the re establishment of of of of

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cordial relations with Yugoslavia, and Tito himself and Moscow always

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treated Yugoslavia as part of the socialist community of Nations

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and there was complex interdependence in the form of UH

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common form and comic con But Ugoslavia stood, you know,

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as AH as a genuine neutral in the Cold War.

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Speaker 1: Did do you do you consider did you consider them

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to be socialists?

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Speaker 2: The Slabs? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: In what way though?

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Speaker 2: I mean it was a planned economy, you know, based

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upon you know, the essentially administered inputs and production schemes

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and everything else. I mean, like they they praacticed socialist

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economics to a t. They were thirsty for foreign currency

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in a way that really no other East Bloc country was,

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save East Germany, but East Germany was kind of in

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the role of Hong Kong is to you know, vis

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a vis the PRCS. That was unusual. So, I mean

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Yugoslavia was able to draw direct investment in a way

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that you know, say, like Poland and Czechoslovakia wasn't. But

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I mean they absolutely, you know, they absolutely were practicing

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state socialism and.

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Speaker 1: They had they were like water water treatment plants and

242
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all sorts of things as such that were like guild

243
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owned that were like guild run.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they had, and they allowed they allowed, uh, they

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allowed certain like NGOs to exist like at least nominally,

246
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like outside the formal party structure, like which wouldn't have

247
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washed and you know, the Soviet Union itself, but that

248
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was not alike the kind of stuff that was emerging

249
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in Hungary after nineteen fifty six. I mean a lot

250
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of this stuff was uh, a lot of stuff was

251
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like cosmetic and also like it you could you could

252
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carry on autonomously within certain parameters in the Yugoslavian system,

253
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but if you took on a political if you took

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on a political commitment like you'd be crushed by the

255
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secret police, you know, just like you would anywhere else

256
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by in the wall. I mean, that's that's the that's

257
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that's the key takeaway. And uh, Tito was a real

258
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Communist in my opinion, you know, I mean he in

259
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order to the whole idea of a Yugoslavia is is

260
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uh is was was doomed from inception for all kinds

261
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of reasons. But the idea was the most turtle of

262
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you of Tito in terms of the geostrategic mind. An

263
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impulse is that he realized that the United States and

264
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the Soviet Union both had to be kept out or

265
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you know, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, would would would would

266
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they would? They would stand together or fall together amidst

267
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the the Cold War dynamic. And we'll get into the

268
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kind of basic suspicion of Serbs and Croats to UH,

269
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inter governmental organizations, including I might add the Catholic Church,

270
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despite the fact, I mean croats and work are like

271
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a Catholic vanguard, but they're not. They were always they

272
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were always suspicious of of you know, UH, any kind

273
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of vaticant effort to directly impact their politics and the

274
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internal situation they're in, which is interesting. But there's a

275
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strong heritage of that and the Balkans, and we'll get

276
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into the Bosniaks of people too. I'm not leaving them out.

277
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They're they're hugely important. Uh but that but for our

278
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purposes right now, they kind of don't feature center stage.

279
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But May thirteenth, nineteen ninety that was the infamous that's

280
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something the football game that I'm talking about soccer, not

281
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the pigskin game obviously. That's in the soccer match at

282
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:21,440
the Zagreb at the Maximir Stadium between Zagreb Dynamo and

283
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,000
Belgrade Red Star, which are like too like very they're

284
00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:30,119
they're kind of like Ranger and Celtic, Okay, like they're

285
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,319
the Rangers and Celtic, like they're you know, like the

286
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:37,960
old firm rivalry, like very nationalistic, very much a stand

287
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:45,440
in for a you know, ethno sectarian nationalism. The game

288
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:50,200
erupted into like this general like melee between like cross

289
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:55,440
and Serbians as well as the police and at uh

290
00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:58,880
like the the level of violence, it was clear that

291
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something was afoot, that that this was just typical like

292
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:07,119
football pitch, you know, dust up kind of stuff, and

293
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,920
sure enough I put it an underway. All that preceding

294
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Spring was the new Croatian Parliament had been convening. They

295
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,319
formally held its first session, held the first session on

296
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May thirtieth of nineteen ninety. But President to Jamon, and

297
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,240
we'll get into who he was in a minute, he

298
00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:34,880
formally announced the manifesto for a new Croatian Constitution and

299
00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:40,079
an entire like multitude literally of political, economic and social changes,

300
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:50,319
most of most concern to non Croats. The extent that

301
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,359
this constitution outline to what extent minority rights would be guaranteed,

302
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,799
I mean mainly for Serbs. The relationship between Croats and

303
00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:58,680
Bosniax is complicated. We'll get into that as we proceed

304
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:05,000
with the series. But local Serb politicians just opposed this outright,

305
00:25:05,319 --> 00:25:09,279
you know, they said it's a it's a manifesto for

306
00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:12,720
ethnic cleansing with someone ironic if you consider the source.

307
00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:18,400
It's important understand Tujeman was not a bigot. I mean,

308
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,480
he was a He was a He was a racial patriot,

309
00:25:20,599 --> 00:25:23,119
I believe, despite his background, and we'll get into that

310
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:25,400
in a minute, I believe he was something of a

311
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,440
national socialist, but he he was not a bigot. His

312
00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:35,319
view of a his view of democracy, his view of

313
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,559
representative government was basically like the Schmidtian view. You know

314
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,640
that democracy is the expressed will of the demos. It

315
00:25:43,799 --> 00:25:47,680
will always there. It represents domination by you know, one

316
00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:51,880
cohesive like ethnic, sectarian or racial group. You know, it's

317
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,799
the exclusion of the expression of other cultures in a

318
00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:58,559
full and complete way. Okay, and in a place like

319
00:25:58,599 --> 00:26:00,920
the Balkans, that's an arguable if one is prone to

320
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:12,759
kind of universalist conceits otherwise. For context, as of nineteen ninety,

321
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:19,240
Cross represented seventy eight point one percent and Serbs self identified.

322
00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:21,640
I think Serbs represented twelve just word, twelve percent of

323
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,519
the total population. But the Serbs held a disapportionate number

324
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:32,279
of official posts closed somewhere between fifteen and twenty percent. And

325
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:35,559
these these these posts were loaded in the police and military.

326
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:39,880
And this is something that had been underway for a

327
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:46,079
couple of decades, you know, Serbians becoming insinuated into the

328
00:26:46,079 --> 00:26:52,160
security element as well as uh adjacent institutions of the

329
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:59,559
party apparatus. You know, it was the after after the

330
00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:09,480
death of the Communist Party in in Croatia and uh

331
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:15,160
to uh a striking degree in Bosnia. Hear Segovina as well.

332
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,559
You know, the uh, the like the Yugoslavian security apparatus

333
00:27:21,599 --> 00:27:25,240
was becoming a like like a Serbian institution, you know.

334
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:37,200
And this, uh, this more than anything, kind of prompted

335
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,799
public reception in Croatia among cross at their back was

336
00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:47,519
against the wall because it's not, uh, it's not the

337
00:27:47,559 --> 00:27:49,680
Croati at this time had its own army or something.

338
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,880
The only army was the Yugoslav National Army like the

339
00:27:52,960 --> 00:28:02,000
j and A, And immediately after the Slovenians also held

340
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,319
a parliamentary election they held there's in April in nineteen ninety,

341
00:28:07,599 --> 00:28:10,440
you know, and then the cross as we just mentioned

342
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,759
in nineteen ninety. In May nineteen ninety, the j and A,

343
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,799
the Yugoslav National Army, they announced an end to the

344
00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:21,880
Tito era adoption of general People's Defense. That what general

345
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,279
People's Defense in practice meant was that each discreet republic

346
00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:33,319
within Yugoslavia maintained a territorial defense force that basically, you know,

347
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,039
at absence like a general mobilization, knowing to total war,

348
00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:42,680
you know, the local territorial defense would be responsible for

349
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,559
you know, responding to emergency situations as well as acting

350
00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:52,400
in in you know, the kind of constabulary role for

351
00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:58,279
policing the internal situation, an event of a crisis. This

352
00:28:58,039 --> 00:29:02,359
was this was this was just abolished and henceforth it

353
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,720
would be replaced by essentially directed system of defense you

354
00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:11,440
know UH from the J and A's UH General Staff,

355
00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:15,160
which again was what was was re pradical purposes, you know,

356
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:24,920
like a Serbian element. The Slovenians acted rapidly to try

357
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:31,960
and retain control over their over their territorial element. The

358
00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:36,640
Croatians played it very cool, which is fascinating, and people

359
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:45,599
have a couple of ideas about that. The UH, the

360
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:55,480
weapon stockpiles of the Territorial Defense Force element in Croad

361
00:29:55,559 --> 00:30:00,119
majority regions were seized by the us Lav National Army

362
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:13,079
and it was UH, Serbia's representative in the Federal Presidency

363
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,480
of Yugoslavia, which was then still let theoretically intact. He

364
00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:21,799
claimed that this action came basically at the demand of

365
00:30:21,839 --> 00:30:29,319
Serbia because again, you know, they were claiming that, you know,

366
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,160
we represent all you know, Yugoslavians, but the Serbian minority

367
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,960
is under direct you know, like mortal physical threat in

368
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:44,079
newly independent Croatia, which according to Belgrade was a was

369
00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:51,480
was it was a fascist state. So Tujman realized he

370
00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:57,160
had to proceed carefully. A lot of people believe Tujman

371
00:30:57,279 --> 00:30:59,000
was in We'll get into his background a minute, but

372
00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:01,400
he was. He was an inn eellectual. He was a

373
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,720
military officer, but he was he was kind of the

374
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,799
constant East Block intellectual. People think he was basically playing

375
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,000
like a master chess game. And he realized, uh that

376
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:20,880
owing to you know, the good offices with with with

377
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:25,559
Germany and particularly Cole, as well as America's need h

378
00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:29,200
you know, kind of control the situation without simply seating

379
00:31:31,839 --> 00:31:34,880
responsibility for any intervention to the Russians, which was unthinkable.

380
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:41,240
That basically, like if he allowed the Serbs to continue

381
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:46,200
to you know, basically kind of outrage world opinion by

382
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,799
carrying out what was by all appearances kind of like

383
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:56,039
nakedly like uh ethno sectarian program of oppression against all

384
00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:02,960
attempts at secession and self determination. That either there'd be

385
00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:07,880
direct intervention by some combination of the U N and

386
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,799
the EU backed up by natal force of arms, or

387
00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:16,240
that the United States and Germany would allow you know,

388
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:23,400
weapons to stream in and essentially give the Cross them

389
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,839
they needed UH to win when push came to shove,

390
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:33,960
and ultimately four years later that's exactly what happened, and UH,

391
00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:41,960
the Cross you know, launched this mass assault operations storm

392
00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:48,160
against the Serbian U slav National Army and like quite

393
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,119
literally like liberating Croatia. And we'll get into that in

394
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,960
later episodes. But I basically accept that view of two Jeman,

395
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,799
which is why, as I suggested, has we commenced this discussion.

396
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,119
He's you know, worthy of the praise that he receives.

397
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:12,279
And and then more who was too Juman. He was

398
00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:16,359
born on May fourteenth, nineteen twenty two. He died in

399
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:22,440
December of nineteen ninety nine. It's an arguable that he

400
00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:25,720
played he played the pivotal role in the in the

401
00:33:25,759 --> 00:33:29,359
creation of like the modern Croatian state, the contemporary state.

402
00:33:33,599 --> 00:33:41,400
It uh his vision of Croatia. It was. He didn't

403
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,319
run from the it's it's it's passed as a fascist state,

404
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:51,279
a national socialist state. He didn't even particularly deemphasize it.

405
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,759
His background, he'd he'd fought with the Partisans against the Ustasia,

406
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,640
which is interesting in art, motivated probably by the fact

407
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,079
that his brother had been murdered by the Eustasha, but

408
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:09,039
he could not be called an anti fascist, and in

409
00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:14,960
the thirty years preceding the Homeland War he was periodically

410
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:21,920
imprisoned for nationalist activities. He wrote a History from the

411
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:30,760
Croatian Perspective of World War Two, whereby he essentially said

412
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,320
that the Croatians of the people had to work within

413
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:39,800
the communist paradigm in order to achieve self determination, and

414
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,400
that was his motivation for joining the Partisans, and in

415
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:50,440
other men's cases, especially after the wall came down, that

416
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,400
would seem laughable, and to Jamon's case, it's entirely credible,

417
00:34:57,559 --> 00:34:59,599
owing to you know, the way he lived his life

418
00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:04,320
and and frankly the kind of regime that he created

419
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:11,480
when he came to the Helm he Uh. It's important

420
00:35:11,519 --> 00:35:19,159
note too that Tito was a crawat, and even then, uh,

421
00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:23,639
there was a strong uh, there was a Serbian plurality,

422
00:35:24,199 --> 00:35:32,280
if not across party offices, you know, within the vanguardist

423
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:39,400
elements as well as you know, in the security apparatus

424
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,920
that followed. So it's a crawat who a crowd who

425
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,079
was a partisan during the war years and then later

426
00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:49,239
became an arch nationalist. The way to look at that

427
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,119
is you can't look at that the way you would

428
00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:55,719
in some in some in some national narratives. It's not

429
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,239
it's not a matter of what's changing, changing their ats

430
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,679
according to politic, according to historical currents. There is an

431
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,400
internal logic there. You know, Convolutism might seem outside of

432
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:14,400
the Balkan situation. But revisionists who write about the Balkans,

433
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,039
and there are some, they made the point that it's

434
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,360
incredibly misguided and just kind of like a I mean,

435
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,199
just kind of like a midw conceit to paint tu

436
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,679
Jaman and Melosovich's, you know, as these kind of twin

437
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,440
like Balkan dictators. They were totally different kinds of people.

438
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,440
They were different generations. You know, they were born, you know,

439
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:43,239
over twenty years apart. Melosovich was the consummate kind of

440
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,039
company man communist. Interestingly, he was the man the State

441
00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:51,960
department favored for a kind of perastrika in Yugoslavia to

442
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:59,800
be overseen. And you know, uh, when I was a

443
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,000
wating to what the odds of this discussion with in

444
00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:08,840
my opinion, the Bulgan situation kind of dooming the Bush

445
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:15,800
Baker Gorba show off. Shepherd nards a concord was when,

446
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:26,039
as I think we discussed before the UH Tujmon met

447
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:40,519
with Helmet Cole on October seventh, nineteen ninety one, and

448
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,199
raw m the Cole met on October seventh with UH Separovich,

449
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,800
with Tujiman's foreign minister, and he reiterated and knowing certain

450
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:57,320
terms that you know, as long as Croatia like abides,

451
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,559
you know, the ceasefire that was then periodically in place

452
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,440
and you know, continues to hold, you know, regular elections

453
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:15,519
that you know, beyond mere cosmetic affairs that UH you know,

454
00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:18,599
the end that the newly independent Croatia has Germany's full support.

455
00:38:20,159 --> 00:38:22,840
Within the notes of the meeting is fastening. Scepparovic says,

456
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,039
you know, we were painted as we're painted as national

457
00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:35,400
socialist by the UH American world press. We we we

458
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,559
fear this is gonna harm our cause, like Cole says, like,

459
00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:41,480
don't worry about that. You know, when when push comes

460
00:38:41,519 --> 00:38:46,760
to shove, basically l L, I'm gonna I'm gonna reform

461
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:52,039
Washington that this issue is non negotiable, you know, so

462
00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:56,719
Cole and of course UH Belgrade went nuts and claimed

463
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,239
that UH they they they claim that tou Jaman and

464
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,679
Cole were conspiring to develop a fourth Reich, that you know,

465
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,360
NATO was supporting UH, a Nazi client state of Germany

466
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:19,880
in Croatia and UH the You know that the response

467
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,679
from Zagreb was that, you know, we've abided every UN

468
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:32,079
resolution that has been assigned to us in order to

469
00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:38,199
mitigate hostilities. We are under attack. We want nothing more

470
00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:41,559
than self determination. You know, we're at risk of ceasing

471
00:39:41,559 --> 00:39:44,360
to exist at a people, as a people based on

472
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,880
our unwillingness to abide communist tyranny. You know, isn't that

473
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,800
what the American way is all about? And what the

474
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:57,679
NATO enterprise was was UH was tailed and maintained to guarantee.

475
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:03,719
And Yelton's people in Moscow obviously were listening, as were

476
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,800
well less his people in Poland, I mean, as was UH,

477
00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:16,159
as was you know, all these young Turks throughout the UH,

478
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,760
throughout the East Bloc, and they were saying, you know,

479
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,880
who the hell is Bush to tell the Russians that

480
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,800
they've just got to tolerate, you know, they've got to

481
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,079
They've got to tolerate a communist tyranny for the sake

482
00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:34,360
of stability. You know, this is uh, this is egregious.

483
00:40:34,639 --> 00:40:37,280
You're telling people they've got to willfully avail themselves as

484
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,679
captives to communism or something even worse and refrain from

485
00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:50,639
pursuing self determination. You know, simply, uh, it's simply simply

486
00:40:50,679 --> 00:40:53,280
to abide you know, some kind of you know, some

487
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,960
kind of vision that allows Gorbachev and Hivin Nards to

488
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:03,239
make make heroes of themselves and possibly enriched themselves exponentially,

489
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:13,639
you know, in pursuit of this kind of a policy

490
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,760
of h of non action.

491
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 1: And that's really can jump n jump in for a second. Yeah, Okay,

492
00:41:24,559 --> 00:41:27,840
how much at this point, how much influence is coming

493
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,920
from outside like NGO types in the in nineteen eighty eight,

494
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,920
the I can't remember the name of the guy who

495
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,599
started the National Endowment for Democracy, but he he bragged

496
00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:42,239
them New York Times that you know, the National Endowment

497
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,320
for Democracy is now going to start doing the work

498
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,840
of the CIA, and we have our eyes on Yugoslavia.

499
00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 2: There was some of that, but it's also what uh

500
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,039
what Separovic said that Cole was correct, and there were

501
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,679
there were national Socialist guys who joined up to go

502
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,880
fight and uh fight against the Serbs with the cross.

503
00:42:05,039 --> 00:42:09,480
I met some of them, and uh Ingo Hasselbach is

504
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,320
not an admirable guy, but he did write a very

505
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:17,719
interesting book. He talked about that you know that that

506
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,119
that that that that was a shot in the yard

507
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:25,599
of the national socialist cause, especially in East Germany. You know,

508
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,840
like the independent State of Croatia was back. It's one

509
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,559
thing to uh it's one it's fun thing to have.

510
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,840
It's one thing to to to to repurpose Ukraine as

511
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,119
like a human torpedo and install like a clown, like

512
00:42:41,119 --> 00:42:43,280
a literal clown like Zelenski at the helm and then

513
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,239
like watch it destroy itself. You know, while you allow

514
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,440
these why why well, while you allow them to like

515
00:42:48,519 --> 00:42:51,079
dress up and play Nazi, that's one thing. Is another

516
00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:56,599
thing to have, like an actual national socialist state that's

517
00:42:56,639 --> 00:43:02,239
flying the standard of uh that that that Pavlich's NDH

518
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,119
did and having a you know, helmet cole like standing

519
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:08,119
literally arm in arm with like the president of the

520
00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:11,199
newly independent Croatia as a totally are in ball game

521
00:43:11,519 --> 00:43:20,239
and selling that. Selling that in Washington, you know, as

522
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,000
part of a neo contage program was not an easy sell.

523
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,280
What did going to carry the day m p r I,

524
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:32,320
which was a precursor to Blackwater and a lot more

525
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,440
effective in my opinion, there were much more other tradition

526
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,360
of outfits like executive outcomes that people are familiar with

527
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,079
that m p r I was Military Products and Resources Incorporated.

528
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:50,400
They were they were a PMC outfit that was very

529
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:56,320
much responsible for getting the Cross and fighting shape in

530
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,679
terms of material and training the Cross. There were very

531
00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:02,760
martial people and UH that's a facilitated operations storm. But

532
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,679
it's a totally different world. And like the UH, the

533
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,480
Croats were like an underdog people. It's like, yeah, they

534
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,360
had Germany behind them, Like yeah, I'm like American media

535
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,880
basically cast them as like the good guys. But they

536
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:21,320
also if you go to UH, you know like ed Vashim,

537
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,559
like they got au, they got a whole, they got

538
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:26,639
a whole exhibit like permon an exhibit on like you know,

539
00:44:26,679 --> 00:44:31,880
the crimes of the Ustasha. You know, they're not that's

540
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,880
wonder if that's so many neo cons that clicked up

541
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,039
with like Serge Trifkovic, whoite met and he doesn't like

542
00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:39,679
me very much. But that's why that's why during like

543
00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:44,199
the height of UH the height of like war on

544
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,800
terror bullshit. Yeah, these like crazy like Laura Lumer type

545
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,480
Zionists saying like see, like we we stay with the

546
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,000
Syrups because they're victims the Holocaust too, and like they're

547
00:44:53,039 --> 00:44:56,280
they're they're also fighting Islam like that that's their big thing,

548
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,800
you know, So like Krawats are not people who they

549
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,039
kind of the kind of in Gio macro verse likes

550
00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:07,920
to help. Okay, that's the short answer. We can get

551
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:13,679
more into that in a subsequent episode. It'll become particularly

552
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,079
relevant as we get into Operations Storm and kind of

553
00:45:16,119 --> 00:45:20,119
like the how that developed, and there's the planning and

554
00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:22,039
execution as well as you know, kind of the order

555
00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:26,800
of battle for the Rubber met the road. But you know,

556
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:34,400
the uh, what was obviously the forefront of embody's mind

557
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:42,599
was what would Croatia's treatment of minorities be? You know,

558
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:51,239
uh two junt Finesse did very well. Separovich openly stated that,

559
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,679
uh there that the Zagreb government and the Futmont government

560
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,000
they have actually no problem with you know, an opening

561
00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:05,280
hearing at the Hague conference that was then looming for

562
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:10,639
the winter time, or participating representatives of you know, all

563
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,039
all of of you know, the three ethnic groups, you know,

564
00:46:13,119 --> 00:46:16,840
Cross servant Bosniak, he could you know, get some declaration

565
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,639
or rights from this zagarea government that would be guaranteed

566
00:46:21,679 --> 00:46:23,800
by you know, like you had observers or whatever like

567
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:34,440
upon sensation of hostilities. You know, Uh, the true problem,

568
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,559
the truth throw on the side of the server became

569
00:46:36,559 --> 00:46:40,760
the Albanians and Kosovo. But that's we're not there yet.

570
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,800
But the point is, like at least more than superficially,

571
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,559
the Cross said, like, look, we we would be willing

572
00:46:48,559 --> 00:46:53,280
to accept some international controls in terms of settlement of

573
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:58,920
the Serbian minority, and we will definitely allow observers on

574
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,000
the ground. We've got an to hide here. But again,

575
00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:05,440
you know, Tujman was unwilling to compromise in his statement

576
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:11,119
that self determination involves the dominance of you know, homogeneous

577
00:47:11,159 --> 00:47:14,960
culture and its ability to get guarantee that culture's posterity

578
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,440
and the practice of that culture by the people constitute it.

579
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,599
And this is absolute that the self determination is, you know,

580
00:47:20,639 --> 00:47:23,400
you will not force us into some multi ethnic state

581
00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:26,239
under Serbian dominion. You know, we will not become a

582
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,840
minority in our own country again, and this is not negotiable.

583
00:47:31,559 --> 00:47:35,920
And that was very baldy. But again it uh, you know,

584
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:41,800
the this was exactly the right tactic to take. And

585
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:48,679
again some would say tu Jaman gambled by holding back

586
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,199
the way that he did and kind of letting the

587
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:57,639
war be fought in Bosnia, while like the Cross, you know,

588
00:47:58,199 --> 00:48:01,519
we're able to kind of build political cache by appearing

589
00:48:01,559 --> 00:48:04,920
to you know, be the party that was most compliant,

590
00:48:05,039 --> 00:48:08,000
you know, with you know, law and order as as

591
00:48:08,119 --> 00:48:13,519
as a devised by NATO and the Hague. Like cynical

592
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:16,079
as that might have been, it was a master stroke

593
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:23,800
and tu Jaman could not have known that Operations Storm

594
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,880
would develop way that it did. The subtext of the

595
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,360
cole Separovic meeting is is Coal is telling him You're

596
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,039
going to have the weapons you need to to win

597
00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:39,199
the homeland war when the time comes. Okay. That's if

598
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,679
you know what to look for in analyzing these kinds

599
00:48:41,679 --> 00:48:48,480
of this kind of language and placing it in context

600
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,000
of uh, you know, the parties and what brings them

601
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,599
to the table. I think that can't be disputed. So

602
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:06,039
that's it's basically what we think of as you know,

603
00:49:07,519 --> 00:49:13,079
the Balkan Wars like in our lifetime. That's what kicked

604
00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:22,480
off the conflict cycle and again autumn of ninety one,

605
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,599
like the Cross, the first UH like real kind of

606
00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:39,840
conventional engagement was the siege of the Jillivar Barracks, whereby

607
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:47,159
the jy and A was UH aiming to continue their

608
00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:54,719
campaign to disarmament against the Cross in Croatia proper what

609
00:49:54,880 --> 00:50:02,559
was to become Croatia proper, and Toujman eventually called off

610
00:50:02,599 --> 00:50:07,719
after after approximately fourteen days, he called off the siege

611
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,519
and allowed the j and A to seize what they

612
00:50:09,519 --> 00:50:15,280
had come to take. Stood down or remained of a

613
00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:24,320
territorial forces adopted a purely kind of defensive posture, and UH. Meanwhile,

614
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:30,719
UH took the waging the active conflict by proxy in Bosnia,

615
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,559
which again was a UH was a political and strategic

616
00:50:37,679 --> 00:50:43,280
master stroke. Did that prolong the suffering of people? I mean,

617
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,760
what happened in Bosnia is horrible, like beyond belief, But

618
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,119
I mean Toujman did what he had to do to

619
00:50:49,119 --> 00:51:02,320
win the war, okay, and UH if with within the

620
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,920
bound of rationality of that, like Belgrade had to be defeated.

621
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,800
You know, I know that sounds like callous to but

622
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,559
I mean the fact is it's you know, yeah, I

623
00:51:13,559 --> 00:51:20,400
mean subjecting, subjecting people in the Bosnian battle space, including

624
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:25,119
Croats obviously, you know, to those guys of horrors for

625
00:51:25,199 --> 00:51:27,679
the greater good. I mean that that's those those are

626
00:51:27,679 --> 00:51:30,599
the kinds of decisions that that that real statesmen, you know,

627
00:51:30,639 --> 00:51:32,719
like warranty statesmen have to make, and it was the

628
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,320
right call. I'm not trying to upset people. I'm not

629
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:40,679
like at all. I'm speaking in in terms of you know,

630
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:45,960
strategic matters, not moral ones, and uh, I'm not Uh,

631
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,559
I've got a lot of respect for the Serbian people.

632
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:51,360
I'm certainly not down on them or bashing them or anything,

633
00:51:51,679 --> 00:51:53,760
and we will give them like their fear hearing too,

634
00:51:53,960 --> 00:52:00,519
like in the concluding episode. But I think, uh, I'm

635
00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:03,719
frankly getting kind of tired. I don't know, you any

636
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:08,079
hour that was kind of dense, So I don't want

637
00:52:08,079 --> 00:52:09,760
to get into the second. What I'm gonna get into

638
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,960
next is kind of is like equally dense, and we'll

639
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,599
be here in anunder two hours that I get into

640
00:52:13,639 --> 00:52:15,320
it now. So I want to. I want to say

641
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,519
it because it basically ties together too Jmud regime as

642
00:52:19,639 --> 00:52:22,360
a legacy government of poplished and I want to drop.

643
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,360
I want to drop the context of what the public

644
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,719
regime was as it existed from five in the second episode.

645
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:29,960
I don't want to get into it now and then

646
00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:31,599
just like have to stop in ten minutes.

647
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: Is that there, Yep, no problem, Junior plugs.

648
00:52:35,639 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: Yes, sir. I'm very excited to say I've got a

649
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,559
bunch of video that's actually ready to go, and everybody's

650
00:52:42,599 --> 00:52:45,280
been like very patient with that, and this has been

651
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:50,239
a learning process for me, so like I I forgive

652
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:51,719
me for that. Have been like a hype for like

653
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,599
months and months, but I think I think people really

654
00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:56,880
enjoy what I got and I'm shooting even more tomorrow.

655
00:52:57,039 --> 00:53:01,880
So sometime this week I plan to have something to upload,

656
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:06,000
so be looking for that. You can always find me

657
00:53:06,039 --> 00:53:09,719
on substack at real Thomas seven seven seven at substick

658
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,280
dot com. I've been dropping as much fresh content there

659
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,159
as I can, including our dear friend Jay Burden has

660
00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:18,679
been transcribing our just our dialogues here, which is great.

661
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,760
He's a real prince, and I've been uploading those. I've

662
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:28,039
been uploading new pod content audio. So that's there. You

663
00:53:28,039 --> 00:53:31,239
can find on my website. It's Thomas seven seven seven

664
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,880
dot com number seven h M S seven seven seven

665
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,239
dot com. You can find me on x at capitol

666
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,840
R E A L underscore number seven h O A

667
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:48,320
S seven seven seven. I'm also on Instagram. I can

668
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,639
never remember. Just search Thomas seven seven seven on Instagram

669
00:53:51,639 --> 00:53:55,639
and you'll find me just like at number seven h

670
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,920
O A S seven seven seven. And yeah, let's let's

671
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,960
reconvene later this week, man, and it will continue on

672
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:05,960
the Balkan Wars. We're gonna do it, all right, thank you, Yeah,

673
00:54:06,039 --> 00:54:06,559
thank you. Man.

674
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show. Thomas,

675
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:12,519
how are you doing.

676
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 2: I'm doing very well. Thanks.

677
00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:19,199
Speaker 1: All right, that's part two of the Balkans what we're

678
00:54:19,199 --> 00:54:21,599
gonna talk about today today.

679
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:28,760
Speaker 2: I wanted to provide a bit of context to understand

680
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:33,920
the conflict cycle of the Balkan Wars from nineteen ninety

681
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,400
one to ninety five and then later from nineteen ninety

682
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:44,840
nine into two thousand. Approximately, one has to understand the

683
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:51,559
situation of the first attempt at creating a Yugoslavian state,

684
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,960
which was a fool's errand from inception. But this didn't

685
00:54:55,000 --> 00:55:01,480
originate with the Partisans or with you know, the the

686
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,280
It didn't originate in the minds of the same kinds

687
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,679
of people who you know, conspired with the cynics like

688
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:15,239
Venice and Czechoslovakia. You know, it was it, there was,

689
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,480
there was deep precedent for it, not into it had

690
00:55:18,559 --> 00:55:22,199
no there was no organic support for it among the

691
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:29,000
constituent populations, but among various coteries and categories of elites

692
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,360
like this is an ongoing effort. So that's number one.

693
00:55:33,159 --> 00:55:37,119
Number two, there's many, many misconceptions about the Independent State

694
00:55:37,119 --> 00:55:42,280
of Croatia as it existed from Many forty one to

695
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,840
forty five. For a small country, it had a tremendously

696
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,920
outsized impact. It was incredibly committed to the acts As cause,

697
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,920
and a lot of people claim otherwise by conflating support

698
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,840
for the Usta Show regime with support for the x

699
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:04,480
IS cause and Adol Hitler, and that's misguided. But also

700
00:56:04,559 --> 00:56:09,079
people mischaracterize the relationship of Proosa as a people to

701
00:56:09,199 --> 00:56:14,920
the Usta Shaw and the Eustasha movement was a Bosnian

702
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:20,079
crad movement at base, and discussing the view of the

703
00:56:20,159 --> 00:56:24,320
Ustasha in Croatia proper, it's almost like it's an impertinentalogy.

704
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,960
But it's almost like it's almost like polling people like

705
00:56:27,079 --> 00:56:32,360
in England or like UH London about how they feel

706
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,199
about like loyalism in Northern Ireland. You know, like you're

707
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:38,840
you're remote from the conflict zone. And yes, I mean

708
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,880
cross were really proud people, they're really like aware of

709
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:49,800
this situation contra the civilization of other I'm speaking within

710
00:56:50,039 --> 00:56:52,400
the terms of the conflict in amics present and not

711
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:57,079
making some value judgment or suggesting anything in absolute terms

712
00:56:57,119 --> 00:57:03,480
about the populations under discussion. But in the Bosnia is

713
00:57:03,519 --> 00:57:10,880
literally like a powder keg of of ethno sectarian conflict dynamics.

714
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:16,480
So one's got understand the emergence of the Ustasha as

715
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,440
well as the emergence of of the the Chetnik movement

716
00:57:19,679 --> 00:57:21,719
as as a as a as A as a Bosnian

717
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:26,519
phenomenon very much. You know, on the Chetnik side, just

718
00:57:26,599 --> 00:57:32,119
complexities and ambitions that you know kind of transcended and

719
00:57:32,159 --> 00:57:34,599
superseded that. But if you're talking about kind of the

720
00:57:34,679 --> 00:57:43,599
core based of organic radical support for these UH, for

721
00:57:43,719 --> 00:57:54,400
these for these ethnic UH political programs and in ideological crusades,

722
00:57:55,360 --> 00:58:00,000
you know, the the dynamics of Bosnia Herzegovina are essential

723
00:58:00,159 --> 00:58:04,360
understanding it. So today we're gonna get into that stuff,

724
00:58:05,599 --> 00:58:07,440
and then then that and then then the next episode.

725
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:12,119
I think, uh, you know, we'll get into the we'll

726
00:58:12,119 --> 00:58:16,599
get into the Homeland war itself and kind of how

727
00:58:16,639 --> 00:58:19,639
it resolved and with the implications where they're in. There's

728
00:58:19,679 --> 00:58:22,440
a lot here. If we start going too long, we

729
00:58:22,519 --> 00:58:26,719
might drag this out into another episode. But we've not

730
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,199
been informed yet that we're boring people when we go

731
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,679
longer than expected, at least, I mean, I haven't gotten

732
00:58:31,679 --> 00:58:34,000
any feedback in the regard, and I assume if that

733
00:58:34,079 --> 00:58:37,199
was underway, you you wouldn't continue to you know, be

734
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:38,480
so kind as to host me.

735
00:58:39,159 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: So if I think if we go beyond three episodes,

736
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:42,760
no one's gonna complain.

737
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the Yeah. Yeah, And I mean I

738
00:58:46,639 --> 00:58:52,760
think we're I think we understand each other enough, you know. Uh,

739
00:58:53,239 --> 00:58:54,719
we we've got we've got kind of like a rhythm

740
00:58:54,719 --> 00:58:57,079
going and the way we produce content that. Yeah, I

741
00:58:57,239 --> 00:59:02,440
think we've got a common vision in mind. The uh,

742
00:59:05,199 --> 00:59:09,840
the Balkans is a peculiar significance. There's a little kind

743
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:17,320
of like cliche discussion about it, or cliche discussion. The

744
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:25,480
Balkans doesn't outside significance, particularly particularly into strategic terms, just

745
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:31,599
owing to like owing to situatedness, like literal geography, and

746
00:59:31,679 --> 00:59:39,079
in the case of Germany, a hostile Balkans or even

747
00:59:39,079 --> 00:59:41,960
in neutral Balkans, whereby the Germans for denied the ability

748
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:51,760
to deploy, specifically to reinforce Hungary and to you know, uh,

749
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:57,239
create any kind of defense and depth or alternatively, you know,

750
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:03,679
traverse the frontiers of Hungary, Romania and creation Balghanichlovina proper

751
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:06,920
if they were if they were denied the ability to

752
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:09,920
do that, that would essentially like cut Europe in half

753
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,760
in operational terms. And obviously, as it became clear that

754
01:00:15,719 --> 01:00:19,880
the Soviet Union was Germany's primary adversary and really the

755
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:25,960
only the only path to victory in World War Two

756
01:00:26,239 --> 01:00:28,559
was was the defeat of the Soviet Union. Okay, I

757
01:00:28,639 --> 01:00:33,119
mean this was this was emergent long before Barbarossa kicked off. Okay.

758
01:00:33,719 --> 01:00:37,679
So that's the key to understanding the situation the Balkans,

759
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:40,800
and that endures to this day. Okay, I mean, that's

760
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:48,599
that doesn't change. Secondly, the kind of unique the unique

761
01:00:48,639 --> 01:00:54,599
affinity that great powers have for the constituent populations there.

762
01:00:56,639 --> 01:01:00,960
It creates, it creates dynamics that have a unique with escalation,

763
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:02,760
you know, like as we talked about it a little

764
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:09,440
bit more in today, the Craoats and the Germans, especially

765
01:01:09,599 --> 01:01:14,800
uh Austrians and Bavarians, but also I mean even the

766
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,079
you know, even Slavians and and and the and the

767
01:01:19,119 --> 01:01:25,639
Prussian Officer UH Corps such that it still existed, you know,

768
01:01:25,719 --> 01:01:29,760
and in the nineteen thirties and forties, there's a basic

769
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,920
affinity between Germany and Croatia, you know, and that was

770
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:39,079
essential understanding what Helmet col did in nineteen ninety one.

771
01:01:39,119 --> 01:01:41,440
So I mean that endoors to the state too, and

772
01:01:41,519 --> 01:01:43,679
the Russians as a people, well, they've got a they've

773
01:01:43,679 --> 01:01:47,679
got a unique affinity for the Serbs. Okay, And I'm

774
01:01:47,679 --> 01:01:51,880
oversimplifying a bit for this sake of conceptual clarity. But also,

775
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:55,840
you know, we've talked a little bit about the kind

776
01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:00,199
of Islamic awakening or revival of the late twentieth century

777
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:07,559
and it's and its significance as an essential one of

778
01:02:07,639 --> 01:02:10,960
many essential causes and and kind of bringing down the

779
01:02:11,119 --> 01:02:14,599
U the Warsaw pack structure and kind of like the

780
01:02:14,639 --> 01:02:20,400
Stalnist model of regime model Bosnia was very much gram zero.

781
01:02:20,559 --> 01:02:25,039
Bosniaks became very radicalized and what became al Qaeda was

782
01:02:25,119 --> 01:02:29,239
very active there and kind of bringing Bosniac people like

783
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:35,559
back into the Islamic fold. Okay, and Bosniaks have something

784
01:02:35,599 --> 01:02:41,199
of a complicated relationship to Islam, but traditionally, you know,

785
01:02:41,239 --> 01:02:45,519
they were very much adjacent and integrated into into into

786
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:51,880
the Ottoman structure. Okay, So these are not this is

787
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:57,679
not just something like middling ethnic conflict whereby the subject

788
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:05,000
populations you know, aren't viewed as are aren't aren't viewed

789
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:12,320
as holding any inherent significance historical or otherwise, save for

790
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:17,039
you know, the pragmatic business of attempting to you know,

791
01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:21,719
resolve and enduring conflicts in such a way that you know,

792
01:03:23,639 --> 01:03:27,440
great powers can at least work with whoever emerges triumphant.

793
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,920
You know, it's very very deep affinities here of you

794
01:03:31,159 --> 01:03:35,440
basically pre rational nature, a lot of which date to

795
01:03:35,519 --> 01:03:38,960
the Thirty Years War, but even that precede, you know,

796
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:45,440
that's important to them, that's important to keep in mind.

797
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,519
And then jump around a bit here. But the Bulkan

798
01:03:50,599 --> 01:03:53,840
theater of World War two was incredibly brutal. It was

799
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,320
almost like that it was almost like a verymont experience

800
01:03:56,360 --> 01:04:02,159
like Vietnam type experience, you know, the uh the Chetniks

801
01:04:02,199 --> 01:04:07,760
led by uh Asa Mahalovich kind of cloak really called

802
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,119
the Hell of Its Chetnicks, because there's various Chetnik factions

803
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:17,480
party of the conflict and in various kind of like

804
01:04:17,559 --> 01:04:22,840
offshoots with the main sort of chet Nick movement. First

805
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,920
and foremost, they were fighting for the restoration the monarchy.

806
01:04:26,599 --> 01:04:28,880
The monarchy as we got into, like the like the

807
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,000
Yugoslav monarchy as we got into in our World War

808
01:04:32,039 --> 01:04:34,800
One series, had become for all practical purposes like a

809
01:04:35,119 --> 01:04:39,599
like you know, like a monarchy that was what was

810
01:04:39,599 --> 01:04:45,880
was was very much captivated by Serbian interests. Okay, the

811
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:53,239
chet Nicks. The Chetnicks were found in sulant situations somewhat

812
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:59,599
somewhat like Shankai checks forces did in their own theater.

813
01:05:00,719 --> 01:05:05,639
The primary ops of the Ustasha and the Vermoncht at

814
01:05:05,679 --> 01:05:11,440
critical moments or the Chetnicks like not the Partisans. The

815
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:16,960
Partisans would often avoid engaging the Verhrmacht when possible, you know,

816
01:05:17,079 --> 01:05:19,639
unless it was critical for them to contest an objective.

817
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,679
And this led to very high Chetnik body counts, and

818
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:28,760
you know, it allowed Tito to spare is arguably is

819
01:05:29,559 --> 01:05:35,480
kind of like a best cadres. Okay. There was also

820
01:05:35,559 --> 01:05:38,039
complexities where you know, there are some Chetniks who were

821
01:05:38,039 --> 01:05:41,400
like somewhat adjacent almost allied with the Italians, and the

822
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,559
Italians are kind of trying to play everybody off against

823
01:05:43,599 --> 01:05:48,199
each other. There was some Chetniks who ultimately defected in

824
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:54,079
real terms, you know, to the ax Aside, and one

825
01:05:54,119 --> 01:06:00,440
of whom uh actually received the Knight's Cross. So, I mean,

826
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:09,199
it's incredibly it was a mess, you know, But the

827
01:06:09,239 --> 01:06:15,199
degree to which two Hitler was forced to kind of

828
01:06:15,239 --> 01:06:22,119
abide all all these competing interests and all these conspiratorial

829
01:06:22,199 --> 01:06:25,639
designs of other essential allies, you know, whether you're talking

830
01:06:25,639 --> 01:06:28,400
about the Romania's, the Hungarians or like all Ducha himself.

831
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:35,440
That's key understanding why Ante Pavolich became the the you know,

832
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:39,320
the the chief executive of of the Independent State of Croatia.

833
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:44,840
Because Pavlich was a very very unusual guy, as we'll

834
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,679
see in a minute, and as I've emphasized before, because

835
01:06:48,679 --> 01:06:52,480
it's not a middling point, and it also it's important

836
01:06:52,519 --> 01:06:56,199
to emphasize it's rebuttal to a lot of the fallacious

837
01:06:56,199 --> 01:06:59,519
assertions in court history. The third Reich wasn't trying to

838
01:06:59,559 --> 01:07:02,400
expe weren't fascism. In fact, they were doing the opposite.

839
01:07:02,599 --> 01:07:06,639
They didn't want these stabilizing regimes to pop up that

840
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:11,119
had a shaky mandate, you know that we're uh, you know,

841
01:07:11,679 --> 01:07:15,679
kind of blowing up the internal constitution of traditional German allies.

842
01:07:16,199 --> 01:07:20,239
Like they didn't want that at all. Okay, A rare

843
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:27,719
incidence of a like a radical cadre based revolutionary fascist

844
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:34,320
do Waight Elements being wholly supported by Berlin and becoming

845
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,559
the official government of an essential ally like independent state

846
01:07:37,559 --> 01:07:40,000
of Croatia was really the only instance of that. I

847
01:07:40,039 --> 01:07:42,480
know some people watching this are going to say, like, well,

848
01:07:42,519 --> 01:07:45,800
what about the arrow cross in Hungary? Okay? That was

849
01:07:46,159 --> 01:07:48,199
the war was I mean, this was the final months

850
01:07:48,199 --> 01:07:53,440
of the war like that. That was you know though

851
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,400
those were desperate conditions were by you know, moment to

852
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:01,280
moment what was ah, what what was what was going

853
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:05,519
to allow the you know, what was going to allow

854
01:08:05,559 --> 01:08:07,920
Hungary to survive? Like as a state? Like was what

855
01:08:08,119 --> 01:08:13,079
was you know, circumstances were changing, if not weak to

856
01:08:13,199 --> 01:08:14,599
you know, if not day to day and then week

857
01:08:14,639 --> 01:08:16,880
to week. So I don't think that's a fair comparison.

858
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:20,439
But a point I'm making people again and again too,

859
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,720
is you know, there was there was a peculiar almost

860
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:25,920
kind of like internal conflict in the in the right

861
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,199
security apparatus we're about like in Romania. Okay, you like

862
01:08:29,199 --> 01:08:33,880
the Iron Guard. Hitler did not back the Iron Guard.

863
01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:37,279
He backed anton Escu, who I think in a lot

864
01:08:37,319 --> 01:08:40,920
of ways was was was Hitler's best ally like he

865
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,800
was closer obviously to Duce like uh like the fear

866
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:48,319
what was I mean? But anton Escu made a huge

867
01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:52,840
commitment to Barbarossa and he was he was uh, he

868
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,119
was a highly competent general officer. But that's that's the

869
01:08:56,239 --> 01:08:58,359
that's the peribial horse Hitler backed, I mean all the

870
01:08:58,399 --> 01:09:00,680
s S and the s D like they backed the

871
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:05,119
Iron Guard. I mean owing to their owing to their

872
01:09:05,159 --> 01:09:08,880
own kind of radical inclinations and and and desire to

873
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:13,960
sort of develop a kind of foreign policy and to

874
01:09:14,159 --> 01:09:18,239
itself like go ahead.

875
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: Didn't Evola say that he thought the Iron Guard was

876
01:09:22,159 --> 01:09:26,359
one of the best chances to defeat communism?

877
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 2: Yes, he did. The place eval was coming from. He

878
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,319
looked at the Iron Guard basically as like an orthodox

879
01:09:31,359 --> 01:09:34,800
mosen and like that's not misplaced. But he if all

880
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:36,800
this whole thing was that he looked at fascism and

881
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:40,279
national socialism. It's just like another kind of iteration of

882
01:09:40,279 --> 01:09:43,960
of degenerated like modern materialism. If you like, the iron

883
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,680
Guard is like this return to you know, the kind

884
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:52,800
of if you would buy Doomazel's trifunctional hypothesis, if you

885
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:55,640
the iron guards are returned like a combination of of

886
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,199
of of the of functions, you know, the warrior function

887
01:09:58,279 --> 01:10:03,760
and the priestly function, which is uniquely aryan sociological paradigm,

888
01:10:04,199 --> 01:10:08,239
and that in Evel's view, you know, represented you know,

889
01:10:08,279 --> 01:10:11,199
owing to the kind of the peculiar conditions of Romania

890
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:13,239
and kind of you know, a culture that it's still

891
01:10:13,279 --> 01:10:16,439
managed to sustain this kind of like linear consciousness of

892
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:18,920
like ancient ways. You know it was it was it

893
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:21,520
was like capital t tradition sort of like reaching into

894
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:26,800
the modern era and like captivating, you know, captivating a

895
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,680
national population in a way that you know, it was

896
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:37,760
both anachronistic as as well as you know, revolutionary and

897
01:10:37,399 --> 01:10:41,159
in all the most unique ways in an Evol's opinion,

898
01:10:41,239 --> 01:10:44,279
like that's that's the only way that that's the only

899
01:10:44,319 --> 01:10:47,079
way that communists could be eradicated, like the entire like

900
01:10:47,119 --> 01:10:50,680
modality of communists thought like if you'd like preview, pretty

901
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:53,640
much every like oppositional tendency is essentially derived from the

902
01:10:53,680 --> 01:11:04,680
same the same lapse like materialists like conceptual biases. So yeah,

903
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,159
but it's like why the s S and the s

904
01:11:07,319 --> 01:11:10,920
D likes them. That's a little more complicated, not philosophically,

905
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:13,479
I mean, when it's like it's it's murky, but it's

906
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:17,640
But the point is, uh, the Independent State of Croatia

907
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,319
stands out for a lot of reasons. But that's not

908
01:11:20,359 --> 01:11:22,039
to say that it had some kind of like weak

909
01:11:22,119 --> 01:11:27,520
mandate like people corny storians always claim it like, oh,

910
01:11:28,039 --> 01:11:30,520
you know, the Ustasha had no popular support, you know,

911
01:11:31,279 --> 01:11:33,680
I mean, I can't really be true when I mean,

912
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:35,800
first of all, is the fact of you know, Bosnia

913
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:41,079
being the true kind of the true kind of source

914
01:11:41,199 --> 01:11:47,239
of of of those kinds of conceptual imperatives ideologically not

915
01:11:47,319 --> 01:11:55,359
Croatia proper, but also the uh there was Croatia committed

916
01:11:55,479 --> 01:12:00,800
UH at least one division sized element, the three sixty

917
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:06,239
ninth Reinforced Infantry of the Wehrmacht was one hundred percent Croatian.

918
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:09,199
The three ninety second, which is also called the Blue Division,

919
01:12:09,239 --> 01:12:11,560
not to be confused with the Spanish Blue Division. The

920
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:15,000
three ninety second was regiment sized, but you know you're

921
01:12:15,039 --> 01:12:19,199
talking about you're talking about thousands of men, all volunteers,

922
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,199
who were also honored, as you know, being assimilated into

923
01:12:23,239 --> 01:12:29,279
the the The chap punk like lead element of Army

924
01:12:29,279 --> 01:12:33,640
Group South was Sault Stalingrid and all there was there's

925
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:38,520
a Croatian Air Force legion that fought exclusively on the

926
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,840
Eastern Front, and they scored like over two hundred kills

927
01:12:43,079 --> 01:12:46,000
or like victories. You know, I mean this was I mean,

928
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,119
I mean the Croats. The Croats were one hundred percent

929
01:12:50,319 --> 01:12:55,159
on board with the Axis Crusade. You know the fact

930
01:12:55,199 --> 01:12:57,600
that people didn't like love the Ustasha or something that's

931
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:01,359
not that's not you can't really derive anything from that.

932
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:04,520
And as we'll get into their reasons for their objections,

933
01:13:05,159 --> 01:13:10,600
oh to publish his Machiavelian tendencies more than it did that.

934
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:14,039
Oh they're too radical and violent, you know, they're this

935
01:13:14,199 --> 01:13:15,920
myth too that like oh the East sure were just

936
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,039
too savage, so that even even the horrible evil SS

937
01:13:19,079 --> 01:13:22,119
said tried to stand them down. That's not That wasn't

938
01:13:22,119 --> 01:13:27,640
their objection. Their objection was that, you know, when publish,

939
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:30,000
was essentially there to kind of like balance these furies

940
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:37,520
you know of Italy, Romania, Hungary as well as as

941
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:39,800
as well as as well as rooting out you know,

942
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:45,600
the partisan threat in Bosnia Hertzklovina. You know. Meanwhile, while

943
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:50,199
they were doing that, they're also ethnically cleansing the Ndah

944
01:13:50,399 --> 01:13:54,560
of Serbs. Like their their notion was deport a third,

945
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,560
like slaughter a third and like forcibly convert a third

946
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:03,680
to Catholicism. And they published absolutely no problem with maslums.

947
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,000
In fact, like he identified with them strongly. And we'll

948
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:07,359
get into that in the minute when we get into

949
01:14:07,359 --> 01:14:10,359
some of his bi biographic data. But that that was

950
01:14:10,399 --> 01:14:15,279
the The objection was like look like this this you

951
01:14:15,319 --> 01:14:18,000
know it was it was it was a question of

952
01:14:18,039 --> 01:14:21,119
like misplaced priorities. It wasn't like that, you know. The

953
01:14:21,239 --> 01:14:24,199
view was that like the regime and Zagreb was being

954
01:14:24,199 --> 01:14:32,960
too mean or something. But moving on it, uh the

955
01:14:33,159 --> 01:14:36,119
uh help me scroll down here and see what I've

956
01:14:36,119 --> 01:14:47,840
got on my outline. There's a uh such that it existed,

957
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:52,159
I mean such that there was it didn't matter. The

958
01:14:52,279 --> 01:14:58,399
Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Hitler realized, you know, which still existed

959
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:05,840
until nineteen four one. Hiller realized that he had what

960
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:09,520
all costs the court them into the Tripartite pect, which

961
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:18,720
eventually he did and famously famously UH the Yugoslav regient

962
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,840
Prince Paul on June third, ninety thirty nine, the the

963
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:26,359
Prince Yugoslavia and his him, his wife was wasn't was

964
01:15:26,359 --> 01:15:28,880
was an english woman, you know, like born and bred.

965
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:35,520
They were invited to Berlin. There was this whole gala celebration.

966
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:37,359
There's a banquet through in their honor. There was like

967
01:15:37,399 --> 01:15:44,439
a full military parade, you know. And Hitler's notion was twofold,

968
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:51,199
like first of all the Yugoslav UH monarchy and it's

969
01:15:51,279 --> 01:15:55,920
it's its cabinet was was served dominated. Okay, And we

970
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:57,640
talked about some of these dynamics again like in our

971
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:02,720
World War One series. They were absolutely they were they

972
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:05,800
were they were pursuing a course of declared neutrality, which

973
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:09,199
in reality was a was a politic area denial to

974
01:16:09,319 --> 01:16:14,279
forbid that Bermach from any kind of operational ingress or

975
01:16:14,279 --> 01:16:17,399
egress or Yugoslav territory. All right, this had to be

976
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:22,039
resolved in some way, not just because it's becoming clear

977
01:16:22,079 --> 01:16:27,520
and clearer that again, you know, Germany's that the primary

978
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,279
threat to Germany was was was the Soviet Union, but

979
01:16:30,319 --> 01:16:33,039
also you know, the only the only way Germany could

980
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:36,920
the only Germany could could could literally fuel its war

981
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:42,119
machine as well as deploy in the as it needed to,

982
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:48,319
was if there was you know, access to Romania, which

983
01:16:50,399 --> 01:16:53,039
and uh you know who these oil fields were were

984
01:16:53,039 --> 01:16:57,199
literally fueling the German economy as well as it's as

985
01:16:57,199 --> 01:17:00,199
well as it's a nascent war machine. But also again too,

986
01:17:00,279 --> 01:17:04,880
there was Jewish strategic imperatives that you know, it's it's

987
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:09,600
simply as as ah as the Balkans couldn't seply just

988
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:13,039
be like written off an area of operations for all

989
01:17:13,119 --> 01:17:18,199
kinds of reasons, and especially as it became clear, you know,

990
01:17:18,239 --> 01:17:21,880
even before the advent of hostilities in ninety thirty nine,

991
01:17:22,199 --> 01:17:24,720
it was clear that you know, if the British intended

992
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:27,439
to like see through on what they were you know,

993
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:33,439
allegending was the these guarantees on the continent that you know,

994
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:38,279
the really the only really really in operational terms, like

995
01:17:38,359 --> 01:17:40,960
the only the only kind of assault upon Europe that

996
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:44,319
could be staged conceptually or conceivably at that time would

997
01:17:44,399 --> 01:17:48,079
would have been you know, through the through the Balkan theater,

998
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:54,319
you know, be it be it Greece, be it you know, Yugoslavia,

999
01:17:54,600 --> 01:18:04,880
or or otherwise. But that's when Chagrin. Paul traveled to

1000
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:07,760
London soon afterwards, and it was clear that he was

1001
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:15,560
being actively courted by you know, the uh, the the

1002
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:23,720
intelligence establishment there, you know, and this becomes, uh, this

1003
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:29,000
is Keith understanding what developed in around Pavolic and we'll

1004
01:18:29,039 --> 01:18:42,319
see in a minute. It's uh, it's you know, and

1005
01:18:42,319 --> 01:18:46,479
that's something I this is something I emphasized again and

1006
01:18:46,479 --> 01:18:52,800
again to like people tend to view Germany's attack upon Greece,

1007
01:18:53,319 --> 01:19:00,319
which really o do the the operational shortcomings the Talian

1008
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:10,960
army as Hitler trying to force the British to stand

1009
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:17,079
down and abandon any abandon any claim to the Mediterranean,

1010
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:19,399
as well as it's some kind of just like show

1011
01:19:19,399 --> 01:19:21,399
a force, you know, based upon I mean, I guess

1012
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:29,279
the the first true like paratroop assault was on Crete

1013
01:19:29,359 --> 01:19:31,800
and it was a disaster. But this idea that that

1014
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:36,720
was some kind of flex intended to signal the UK.

1015
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,760
I mean, it's ridiculous. The reason why this was critical

1016
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:42,720
is for the reasons why I said, like the entire

1017
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:48,039
Bulkan campaign of the Vermont it owed entirely like Germany's

1018
01:19:48,079 --> 01:19:54,000
security concerns, like conceptually orbited entirely around the Soviet Union,

1019
01:19:54,039 --> 01:19:58,960
and like existential terms. Okay, that's not in political terms obviously, Yeah,

1020
01:19:59,079 --> 01:20:01,199
like the UK's on willingness to come to terms and

1021
01:20:01,239 --> 01:20:06,039
it's you know, unrelenting pasture bellicosity like, yes, that that

1022
01:20:06,159 --> 01:20:09,920
was hugely impactful and kind of the course of of

1023
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:14,640
of policy in Germany, you know, from the Foreign Ministry

1024
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:18,119
to the o k W and everything else. But in

1025
01:20:18,119 --> 01:20:22,359
in in raw strategic terms what I what I just

1026
01:20:22,399 --> 01:20:31,840
said is not impeachable. The uh if the r F

1027
01:20:32,359 --> 01:20:34,720
had gotten a toe hold too, I mean again, like

1028
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:38,039
they could have basically they could have they could have

1029
01:20:38,079 --> 01:20:44,319
laid Romania to waste. It was you know, those foreig

1030
01:20:44,319 --> 01:20:49,039
engine bombers that ultimately return to loose on germany civilian population.

1031
01:20:49,479 --> 01:20:53,159
You know, if if if put to if it put

1032
01:20:53,239 --> 01:20:58,680
to that purpose, you know what, it would have been devastating.

1033
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:05,079
I mean, this was the concrete particulars of that, those

1034
01:21:05,079 --> 01:21:10,239
sort of of of ara of strategic bombing at scale

1035
01:21:10,359 --> 01:21:14,239
wasn't yet known, but it was. It was. It was

1036
01:21:14,359 --> 01:21:19,520
known that you know, power projection against of what would

1037
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:22,199
you consider it be like a both the counterforce and

1038
01:21:22,239 --> 01:21:26,119
counter value nature like it was. It was it was

1039
01:21:26,119 --> 01:21:29,319
clear that this was going to be hugely impactful in

1040
01:21:29,359 --> 01:21:36,840
the next war. And it's also you know, the like

1041
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:42,000
we talked about before. I mean, by this time the

1042
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:45,520
the Soviet Union had or by by the advent of

1043
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:49,880
hostilities between Germany and Poland, the Soviet Unity captured you know,

1044
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:54,000
four hundred and ten thousand square kilometers, which was the

1045
01:21:54,039 --> 01:21:57,319
size the entire German empires of nineteen nineteen. I mean,

1046
01:21:57,319 --> 01:22:02,600
this was not this was not Hitler couldn't afford to

1047
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,760
wait and see you know what developed and then trying

1048
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:08,800
to sinuate it, you know, a kind of a kind

1049
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:15,319
of you know, kind of a kind of meaningful Ford

1050
01:22:15,359 --> 01:22:19,439
deployment in the Balkans by you know, a combination of

1051
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,079
like threats and incentivization like it just like was not

1052
01:22:22,119 --> 01:22:27,800
in the cards the and especially when it became clear

1053
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:33,960
that Turkey is not gonna you know, Turkey traditionally was

1054
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:37,119
ah was one of was one of the ways Germany

1055
01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:44,479
hedged against them, you know, both UH, Russian and and

1056
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:47,279
British power in the Mediterranean. That was that was off

1057
01:22:47,279 --> 01:22:52,640
the table. It's an interesting subtext. Late in the war,

1058
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:56,920
the foreign ministries, like the vertures of the Foreign Ministry,

1059
01:22:56,960 --> 01:23:00,000
did make towards Ankara, but it was never I mean,

1060
01:23:00,079 --> 01:23:02,600
by that point they were you know, they were in

1061
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:05,439
the thrones of desperation and and seeking any port in

1062
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:12,399
a storm. It was never a serious never serious, It

1063
01:23:12,479 --> 01:23:15,239
was never seriously within the minds of anybody who who

1064
01:23:15,359 --> 01:23:20,680
was you know, realistic. But by UH by March.

1065
01:23:23,319 --> 01:23:23,840
Speaker 1: Of UH.

1066
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:32,319
Speaker 2: Nineteen forty one, Hungary, Romania Slovakia had all joined the

1067
01:23:32,319 --> 01:23:38,199
Tripartheid Pact. This was a big coover Hitler because the

1068
01:23:38,279 --> 01:23:42,560
Hungarian Prime Minister finally agreed to allow German troops to

1069
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:52,880
cross through Hungarian territory to axis you know, Romania and

1070
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:55,239
and and and and and as well as like deploy.

1071
01:23:59,079 --> 01:24:01,439
They're basically allowed like free like in rest and egress

1072
01:24:01,479 --> 01:24:07,800
across like the Hungarian frontier. And Horthy, Admiral Horthy, who.

1073
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 1: Was a.

1074
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:19,760
Speaker 2: Was very much adjacent to Berlin. The Hungarian foreign ministry

1075
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:25,159
had to that point been overly hostile. They'd taken the

1076
01:24:25,199 --> 01:24:32,119
same tech as Yugoslavia had, and it was a complicated

1077
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:37,039
Horthy's role as a regent. Uh, he was far from

1078
01:24:37,399 --> 01:24:40,000
like on more. In peace questions he had something of

1079
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:45,119
an absolute mandate, but in in times of peace or

1080
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:51,039
in conditions short of war, foreign relations was basically in

1081
01:24:51,159 --> 01:24:57,279
the hands of a cabinet that had you know, like

1082
01:24:57,319 --> 01:25:00,319
a long history really going, that had like you know,

1083
01:25:00,399 --> 01:25:03,439
deep roots in the in the kind of was failing system,

1084
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:11,399
you know. So it's it's important to consider that. So

1085
01:25:14,840 --> 01:25:20,960
Hiller realized that, uh all this though, was essentially null

1086
01:25:21,039 --> 01:25:30,039
and void. If Yugoslavia couldn't it couldn't be wooed. Some

1087
01:25:30,119 --> 01:25:37,680
people speculate that the Greek operation was uh with prioritized

1088
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,960
as it was because Hitler aimed to offer part of

1089
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:48,720
northern Greece to the Ugslav government as some kind of concession.

1090
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:50,119
Like I don't know if that's true or not, but

1091
01:25:51,359 --> 01:26:00,000
it finally, at the close of March of forty one, uh,

1092
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:09,640
the perpetually ambivalent Yugoslavs signed a tripartit pecked psychological blow

1093
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:15,079
to London was tremendous, you know, this was, uh, this

1094
01:26:15,239 --> 01:26:22,000
is probably the biggest, this is arguably more significant and

1095
01:26:22,079 --> 01:26:28,319
more significant policy coup then had been with Hitler. Tiso

1096
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:35,439
had accomplished in Czechoslovakia with like discrediting Britain's claim to

1097
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:41,199
you know, the moral high ground or to you know

1098
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:46,840
it insinuating itself as this, you know, p part of

1099
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:51,640
the rational arbiter of the power political affairs in the continent.

1100
01:26:52,039 --> 01:26:58,119
You know, because it was it's all of all of

1101
01:26:58,119 --> 01:27:03,640
its moves that had been couched and you know, either

1102
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:09,520
h imperatives laid down at Versailles related the self determination,

1103
01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:12,640
which of course was ridiculous in these you know, multi

1104
01:27:12,960 --> 01:27:16,680
monstrosities that had no actual organic support or it was

1105
01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:20,840
or they were framed in terms of you know, systemic stability.

1106
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:28,199
And obviously the fact that you know, the US law

1107
01:27:28,279 --> 01:27:33,319
to join the Tripartid Pact owing to a basic appreciation

1108
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:38,239
of Soviet aggression and the exsidential threat represented to them,

1109
01:27:39,239 --> 01:27:42,920
because it nothing would have golled him more than again,

1110
01:27:42,960 --> 01:27:45,560
you know, like allowing Germany basically a free hand to

1111
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:50,399
deploy across the frontiers. I mean, it speaks for itself,

1112
01:27:50,600 --> 01:28:07,680
okay it but March twenty seventh, you know, literally days

1113
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:16,119
later Hewell reported to Hitler that they've been a cut

1114
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:22,079
in Belgrade, Paul had been overthrown. There was crowds masking

1115
01:28:22,119 --> 01:28:27,960
outside the German legation demanding, you know, Germany get out

1116
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:33,079
of Yugoslavia. Like you know, it's it's diplomatic representatives. We're

1117
01:28:33,079 --> 01:28:37,640
being physically threatened. The Swedish envoy had been mistaken for

1118
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:40,199
a German, had been like beaten within an inch of

1119
01:28:40,199 --> 01:28:47,600
his life. The uh, the British diplomatic legation, which quite

1120
01:28:47,680 --> 01:28:52,600
clearly was you know, the British intelligence Service under lake

1121
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:58,520
diplomatic cover. They were doing everything they could stir up crowds,

1122
01:28:59,119 --> 01:29:04,439
you know, and and and and and arm them. This

1123
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:09,199
cup had been engineered. You the commanders alav Air Force.

1124
01:29:11,119 --> 01:29:17,000
He was a career officer named Dustan Samovich. He was

1125
01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:25,159
a a rabid chetnik who uh hated Germany. He organized

1126
01:29:25,159 --> 01:29:33,239
revolutionary camed it around himself. The Canra refused to ratify

1127
01:29:33,279 --> 01:29:42,600
the Tripartheid pecked however, they said they they they mouthed

1128
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:49,840
these like mild protestations. Some of its office did saying

1129
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:52,439
that like, well we remain you know, allied with Germany

1130
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:57,880
against the Soviet Union, you know, which obviously was I

1131
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:01,079
I mean, I mean, it was bizarre, okay, I mean,

1132
01:30:01,119 --> 01:30:05,479
obviously this was a move to the belief probably was

1133
01:30:05,479 --> 01:30:09,039
that like confusion would reign in Berlin such that you know,

1134
01:30:09,159 --> 01:30:14,199
there'd be some sort of paralysis of of policy decisionism.

1135
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:16,079
And by the time that was all worked out to

1136
01:30:16,199 --> 01:30:19,359
be too late. But that was an incredibly stupid gamble,

1137
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:29,439
especially considering the man who was at the Helm in Berlin, Hitler.

1138
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:34,000
Uh there's Hugh Will relayed later, there's only a few

1139
01:30:34,039 --> 01:30:37,680
times he ever saw Hitler like actually like enraged, you know,

1140
01:30:37,840 --> 01:30:40,680
like uh like yelling and like slamming his fist on

1141
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:43,439
the desk and like visibly like agitated and angry. Because

1142
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:47,720
despite what Hollywood suggests, like Hitler wasn't that that wasn't

1143
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:59,119
his nature, but that he uh summoned uh title immediate

1144
01:30:59,119 --> 01:31:07,680
and yodo and immediately he apparently, uh I called himself

1145
01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:10,920
down and he said that, you know, owing a chorus,

1146
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:14,840
and I just to his Austrian upbringing, what his experience

1147
01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:17,319
in the Great War, you know, he said that, you know,

1148
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:24,000
chauvinistic Serbs, you know, they've always been they've the've always

1149
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:30,319
been responsible for you know, catastrophes at scale, you know,

1150
01:31:30,359 --> 01:31:37,560
and uh, they're they're they're doing this again, and this

1151
01:31:37,640 --> 01:31:43,800
will not stand, he said. He already fueled the send immediately.

1152
01:31:45,199 --> 01:31:51,680
Von Brausich at that time was still the Army chief

1153
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:58,920
of staff. He summoned the Hungarian, the Hungarian and Bulgarian

1154
01:31:59,159 --> 01:32:07,600
diplomatic and boys. He told the Hungarian envoy that Uh,

1155
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:13,239
the hour had struck. Quote for Hungary's revenge, he said that.

1156
01:32:13,359 --> 01:32:16,880
Hitler said that Berlin would support any, any, all territorial

1157
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:27,399
claims against Yugoslavia held by Hungary. He offered the Hungarians

1158
01:32:27,439 --> 01:32:34,399
access to the port of Flume or Fume, I don't

1159
01:32:34,399 --> 01:32:40,319
know how it's pronounced, which would give them interesting to

1160
01:32:40,359 --> 01:32:50,880
the Adriatic. The Bulgarian envoy name of dragon off he offered, uh.

1161
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:57,319
He offered Bulgaria Macedonia. Is it just outright? He had

1162
01:32:57,359 --> 01:32:59,600
a brief work conference with the holder brush it's and

1163
01:32:59,680 --> 01:33:04,279
riven up, he said. The broad plan of assault in

1164
01:33:04,319 --> 01:33:06,960
the Balkans, he said, politically, it's vital to fall upon

1165
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:12,640
the Balkans without mercy. And again this was actually rare

1166
01:33:13,279 --> 01:33:17,520
language for Hitler. He said, Yugoslavia to be your garden,

1167
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:19,399
is an enemy and there were to be destroyed as

1168
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:25,199
rapidly as possible, whatever protestations of loyalty should momentarily utter

1169
01:33:28,239 --> 01:33:47,119
now again the it's uh, the subjects here wasn't just

1170
01:33:47,199 --> 01:33:56,239
that the Semovich coup had been facilitated not an absolute measure,

1171
01:33:56,319 --> 01:34:01,800
but in essential terms by London, but the communist part

1172
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:05,720
of Yugoslavia. They played no part in the coup, but

1173
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:10,319
they made a significant contribution to the mass like street

1174
01:34:10,359 --> 01:34:14,039
protests and uprising that is signal popular support for it.

1175
01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:17,319
And again too, this was a a dicinctly like anti

1176
01:34:17,399 --> 01:34:23,279
German flavor, you know, so like Moscow's hand was in

1177
01:34:23,319 --> 01:34:26,319
this two you know, And that's the point I'm making

1178
01:34:26,319 --> 01:34:29,119
people again and again, you know, like the Germans where

1179
01:34:29,119 --> 01:34:31,319
you're talking about the okaw, whether you're talking like this

1180
01:34:31,439 --> 01:34:33,880
is a rare example of a quorum. You had a Hitler,

1181
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:35,800
you had a Quel, We had Don Browschitch, you had

1182
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:39,279
Ribbon Trup, you totally had title, basically had everybody who

1183
01:34:39,399 --> 01:34:43,800
later on, you know, basically by December forty one, it

1184
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:47,319
was like a total fracturing here of of of worldview

1185
01:34:48,720 --> 01:34:52,840
as well as ideas on strategy, both immediate and grand.

1186
01:34:53,359 --> 01:34:55,760
But there was like an absolute consensus that then they

1187
01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:59,399
were there. The permimborial news was tightening around Germany owing

1188
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:03,279
to these developments in Yugoslavia. And UH that was not

1189
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:10,359
unfounded paranoia, that was absolutely correct, okay, which begs the

1190
01:35:10,439 --> 01:35:14,920
question as to what London was thinking. I mean, Salin, Stalin,

1191
01:35:15,359 --> 01:35:17,399
Stalin could afford to kind of like wait and see

1192
01:35:18,159 --> 01:35:21,319
how these machinations would develop, Like why what what that

1193
01:35:21,479 --> 01:35:25,720
was London doing with you know, provoking the Reich again

1194
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:28,880
and again into like a war that the British couldn't win.

1195
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:31,439
I think it was just it was raw hubers in

1196
01:35:31,479 --> 01:35:34,920
my opinion, and they they underestimated Hitler again and again

1197
01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:46,560
and again and again. The UH official directive April sixth,

1198
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:49,800
nineteen forty one, it was fear Directive of twenty five.

1199
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:55,880
It's coloqually known as Operation twenty five, okay, or the

1200
01:35:55,920 --> 01:36:01,000
April War. April six forty one. The invaded. The assault

1201
01:36:01,039 --> 01:36:04,279
and Yugoslavia commenced and overwhelming, first with an overwhelming air

1202
01:36:04,319 --> 01:36:07,840
assault and Belgrade with aloof off of targeting all facilities.

1203
01:36:07,840 --> 01:36:14,720
The Royal Yugoslav Air Force. The Vermont assaulted from southwestern Bulgaria.

1204
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:20,960
They were reinforced by thrust from Romania, Hungary and UH.

1205
01:36:21,039 --> 01:36:27,000
The Ostmark which is Austria, Los Angeles. Italian forces were

1206
01:36:27,039 --> 01:36:30,760
limited to air and artillery assaults until the Elemath to April,

1207
01:36:31,359 --> 01:36:35,119
when the Italian Army was permitted to assault towards what's

1208
01:36:35,159 --> 01:36:42,079
modern day Slovenia across uh Jubijana, which I'm sure I

1209
01:36:42,119 --> 01:36:48,439
butchered the pronunciation. On the same day Hungarian forces and

1210
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:54,800
their the was then Baca and Aranya. But like and

1211
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:59,640
both the Italians, Hungarians faced basically no resistance. Okay, there

1212
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:02,039
was a roslav counter assault into the northern parts of

1213
01:37:02,039 --> 01:37:05,640
the Italian protector of Albania, which gained some initial ground,

1214
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:09,359
but the like the Yugoslavs, the Yugoslav army was in

1215
01:37:09,399 --> 01:37:14,840
total collapse by that point. Now, why did the Yugoslav

1216
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:21,439
army just suddenly, like rapidly collapse, Well, I believe, and

1217
01:37:21,640 --> 01:37:25,319
people have downplayed this lately owing to their own sort

1218
01:37:25,319 --> 01:37:36,520
of misguided concepts that the ideological narrative. I mean, there's

1219
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:43,920
a substantial uh Volksdotch community in Croatia and Valdier Slovena also,

1220
01:37:44,079 --> 01:37:49,159
I mean Croatians, Slovenians, Croatians and Slovenians had you know,

1221
01:37:49,159 --> 01:37:53,560
they were abjectly opposed to the Yugoslav regime, which was

1222
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:56,560
essentially like a Chetnick regime in disguise, and this constant

1223
01:37:56,600 --> 01:37:59,479
had been a very effective fifth column and at least superficially,

1224
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:03,199
the Royal the Royal Goslav Royal Yugoslav Army was a

1225
01:38:03,279 --> 01:38:08,640
multi ethnic army. It uh, it had to maintain the

1226
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:12,840
appearance of not just being you know, a like like

1227
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:17,680
a like a chet Nik revolutionary element. So I mean,

1228
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:20,399
I I think basically nobody but the Serbs were going

1229
01:38:20,439 --> 01:38:26,079
to fight, okay, and the mask the mask dropped. Proverbially,

1230
01:38:27,039 --> 01:38:30,199
the armistice was signed on the seventeenth of April forty one.

1231
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:33,439
You know, based on the what amount of the uncungental

1232
01:38:33,479 --> 01:38:36,479
surrender Yuoslav Army, it just no longer existed, okay. I

1233
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:40,319
mean a combination of annihilation of forces and being like

1234
01:38:40,439 --> 01:38:45,680
mass desertion and you know, just garrisons, you know, command

1235
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:48,720
garrison commanders just surrendering without firing a shot. You know.

1236
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:52,920
The armists came into effect at noon the next day.

1237
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:57,920
The Commomity with Slavia was an occupying partition by the Axis.

1238
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:03,640
Most of Serbia and but not became a German occupation zone.

1239
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:07,600
Other areas or other areas of what had been Yugoslavia

1240
01:39:08,720 --> 01:39:14,279
were annexed by Hungary, Italy, Albania, Bulgaria, and of course

1241
01:39:14,319 --> 01:39:18,479
Croatia became the nd H. And we'll get into that momentarily.

1242
01:39:18,600 --> 01:39:25,760
But the the Yugoslav army or what remained of it

1243
01:39:28,560 --> 01:39:35,560
military command like officially you know, and uh what what

1244
01:39:35,720 --> 01:39:40,119
remained of its infrastructure just formally became under you know,

1245
01:39:40,159 --> 01:39:45,039
like SETNA authority in command. So I mean, obviously this

1246
01:39:45,039 --> 01:39:47,079
this happened literally within hours, you know what I mean.

1247
01:39:47,079 --> 01:39:50,720
That's it's it's obvious. What was that the reality of

1248
01:39:50,760 --> 01:39:57,560
the you know, the like the the Yugoslavian state, they

1249
01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:01,359
became you know, a like kind of negatively apparent to all.

1250
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:08,000
But it's but again it's one of the I guess

1251
01:40:08,079 --> 01:40:15,159
Hitler's exact words. Inf're a directive of twenty five and

1252
01:40:15,279 --> 01:40:22,359
forgive me, forgive me if my Chicagoese excellent butchers. This

1253
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:33,319
is Yugoslavian militarish und stops builds Schlagen, which means the

1254
01:40:33,319 --> 01:40:36,520
the total instruction of Yugoslavia militarily and as a state

1255
01:40:36,760 --> 01:40:41,000
for all time, and to do so with pitiless, without

1256
01:40:41,039 --> 01:40:56,159
without mercy. Okay, Now enter the Shah and Polovich and

1257
01:40:56,239 --> 01:40:58,239
like who were they and who was he? Because this

1258
01:40:58,359 --> 01:41:05,640
is key I just doneerstanding how events developed, but it's

1259
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:08,800
also it's key understanding the like the modern Croatian state,

1260
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:12,000
including the Croatia that exists today. I'm not saying that

1261
01:41:13,279 --> 01:41:15,600
Croatia today or we're even tu to my Croati was

1262
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:20,119
just literally like the NDH. But Tujman deliberately drew upon

1263
01:41:20,319 --> 01:41:23,239
that precedence, you know, which again kind of defeats this

1264
01:41:23,319 --> 01:41:26,399
claim by court history that oh, well, you know the list,

1265
01:41:26,399 --> 01:41:30,800
this show was nothing. But you know what, this this

1266
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:35,000
this client regime with no depth that nobody supported, you know,

1267
01:41:35,039 --> 01:41:40,199
whether I mean, how anybody feels about it. It's you know,

1268
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:43,000
if we're talking about modern creation statehood, we're talking about

1269
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:46,800
the Eustashire regime. And Pavlich himself was an incredibly dynamic person.

1270
01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:50,279
You know. It was not some peasant rabble rouser or

1271
01:41:50,359 --> 01:41:55,439
some or some military straw man. You know, he was

1272
01:41:55,479 --> 01:41:58,840
actually he was. He was quite talking about politan and

1273
01:41:58,840 --> 01:42:01,199
and and just lived a remarkable life. And he was

1274
01:42:01,239 --> 01:42:04,600
a lawyer by trade versu and foremost, I mean he

1275
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:08,199
very early on bloodied his hands as a political soldier

1276
01:42:08,279 --> 01:42:12,640
and a partisan. But that wasn't that that he was

1277
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:25,359
a man of many faces. Okay, he dasha, I wrote, Canaries,

1278
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:29,159
you know, the chief of the adverb, which was Germany's

1279
01:42:29,199 --> 01:42:32,960
foreign intelligence service. This is one of the AD there's

1280
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:36,359
greatest successes. Okay. And there are some key successes of

1281
01:42:36,399 --> 01:42:39,680
the AD there, despite the fact Canaries was not just

1282
01:42:39,720 --> 01:42:41,920
a fifth columnist, he was an active trader. He was

1283
01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:45,119
collaborating with the Allies. Okay. So the AD there was

1284
01:42:45,199 --> 01:42:48,199
totally compromised from the top down on some level. The

1285
01:42:48,319 --> 01:42:49,800
s S always knew this, and this was one of

1286
01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:53,840
the imperatives for the development of the s D, which

1287
01:42:53,840 --> 01:42:55,640
would seem on his face to be just like a

1288
01:42:55,720 --> 01:43:04,880
redundant bureaucracy within the security apparatus. But there were some

1289
01:43:05,079 --> 01:43:10,479
bona fide, brilliant operational successes carried off by the AD there.

1290
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:17,159
Like whether that was because in at operational levels there

1291
01:43:17,199 --> 01:43:20,479
were committed national socialists who were following through as if

1292
01:43:20,840 --> 01:43:23,960
you know, there the institution they started to not being compromised.

1293
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:31,199
Whether Canaris had you know, mixed feelings about his loyalties

1294
01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:37,239
like this is not clear, but the EUSTA shows a

1295
01:43:37,359 --> 01:43:45,520
sendency owed obviously not exclusively, but an essential contributing cause

1296
01:43:45,560 --> 01:43:48,840
of its success was the fact that, uh, you know,

1297
01:43:49,159 --> 01:43:54,600
Canaris had had fermented a breakaway Croatian movement from early on. Okay,

1298
01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:58,520
and a A this is this, this is an armed

1299
01:43:59,199 --> 01:44:02,760
vanguardist around movement. There was no concept of it, you know,

1300
01:44:02,840 --> 01:44:05,600
abiding legality. There was no concept of it standing for

1301
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:09,680
contested elections. A different situation than in Weymar. Okay. The only,

1302
01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:20,079
the only, the only way a prod national constitution, a

1303
01:44:20,159 --> 01:44:22,520
prod national state was going to be realized was was

1304
01:44:22,640 --> 01:44:25,800
through was was by the gun and by the knife. Okay,

1305
01:44:27,279 --> 01:44:37,479
Canaris is obvious kind of a choice for a leadership

1306
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:44,039
element was a general named Sladko Katternic. He was an

1307
01:44:44,079 --> 01:44:45,640
officer of the old Hasperg Army.

1308
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:48,119
Speaker 1: He uh.

1309
01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:53,920
Speaker 2: When the USA shad did seize power. He initially was

1310
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:58,479
the kind of the figurehead aided by the adverts what

1311
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:01,319
was code named in Jupiter organization, which was it's kind

1312
01:45:01,359 --> 01:45:06,399
of like direct action. Elements after the indefinite state have

1313
01:45:06,439 --> 01:45:11,680
been set up like Povlish, doctor Ante Povlish, who spent

1314
01:45:11,800 --> 01:45:14,159
long years in exile in Italy by that point was

1315
01:45:14,199 --> 01:45:20,119
like revealed as Cooklovnik, which means approximately means fure Cervil Croatian. Okay,

1316
01:45:22,800 --> 01:45:32,840
why the bait and switch of a figureheads like no

1317
01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:46,399
Pavlic Noura Laura Fetternic. We're we're ciphers. They both wielded

1318
01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:49,439
tremendous power and cloud. But I'm talking when I say figurehead,

1319
01:45:49,479 --> 01:45:54,439
I mean in terms of outward appearances. When of Hitler's

1320
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:58,520
challenges with balancing Italian demands on the Balkans and specifically Croatia,

1321
01:46:00,239 --> 01:46:05,520
in order to placate Mussolini over among other things, the

1322
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:10,680
murder of Dolphus and the subsequent ansaluse and other things,

1323
01:46:11,439 --> 01:46:16,439
early on, he agreed to see the Dalmatian coast to

1324
01:46:16,600 --> 01:46:19,960
Italy at least as a sphere of influence and an

1325
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:23,359
event of in an event in general war, you know,

1326
01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:27,039
as a as a territorial imperative that they would be

1327
01:46:27,079 --> 01:46:35,239
permitted to capture. This caused intense resentment in Zagreb, but

1328
01:46:36,439 --> 01:46:43,960
Hitler realized it was unnecessary evil. Okay, Now, Pavolic, having

1329
01:46:44,079 --> 01:46:47,760
spent so many years in Italy and having courted, really

1330
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:54,239
since nineteen thirty two thirty three alliance with the Italian fascists,

1331
01:46:55,319 --> 01:46:58,079
he was kind of Mussolini. He wasn't Mussolini's man, is

1332
01:46:58,239 --> 01:47:02,920
sometimes alleged in Zagreb, but he was Italians, and frankly,

1333
01:47:04,159 --> 01:47:06,760
when it game clear that if he was gonna do Croatia,

1334
01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:11,239
just kind of like this exploitable aspect I brought published

1335
01:47:11,920 --> 01:47:18,800
in the National Socialist camps so firmly. Okay Canarius is

1336
01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:26,079
uh adjutant was a He was an officer by name

1337
01:47:26,159 --> 01:47:34,640
of u Lahausen. He warned Uh the fear as well

1338
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:38,840
as his boss Canarios, that they had to proceed very delicately,

1339
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:44,399
that the resentment over the loss of Dalmatia and just

1340
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:47,199
kind of the the arrogance which the Italians were proceeding

1341
01:47:48,520 --> 01:47:58,560
was wreaking absolutely havoc. He's at the literally said, Uh,

1342
01:47:58,880 --> 01:48:01,640
the Cross are people of honor with a long military tradition,

1343
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:05,199
and it is better beyond words to be trodden down

1344
01:48:05,239 --> 01:48:07,159
and humiliated now by an army has not been able

1345
01:48:07,199 --> 01:48:09,239
to pin one victory to its colors, speaking of the

1346
01:48:09,279 --> 01:48:17,239
Italian army. Okay now who was Ante Pavolich public was

1347
01:48:17,279 --> 01:48:22,680
born and Hurtzegovina. The village of Redina, which is literally

1348
01:48:22,760 --> 01:48:32,479
in the mountains Okay in a central Bosnia, roughly nine

1349
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:37,720
miles southwest of Hezichi. It was then part of the

1350
01:48:37,760 --> 01:48:41,920
Ottoman Empire, but it had been seated. It was formerly

1351
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:46,640
under the sovereignty of the Sultan, but it had been

1352
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:48,840
but the entirety of Bosnians to go Vina had phone

1353
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:51,800
under Habsburg rule by eighteen seventy eight order the Congress

1354
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:56,359
of Berlin. Okay, And essentially it was it was a

1355
01:48:56,439 --> 01:48:59,359
conquest without a shot being fired, as the Habsburgs raidn

1356
01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:02,359
army of a on thirty thousand men and threatened to

1357
01:49:02,399 --> 01:49:05,720
assault it. And this is this is one of the

1358
01:49:07,560 --> 01:49:09,720
if you'll allow the tangent, this is this is one

1359
01:49:09,760 --> 01:49:14,760
indicator of Ottoman power, like precipitously having deteriorated. They didn't

1360
01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:16,520
even they didn't even take the field of battle. They

1361
01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:20,279
just like seed it with some meaningless with with the

1362
01:49:20,319 --> 01:49:26,159
concession of some meaningless declaration that it remained under perhaps

1363
01:49:26,600 --> 01:49:30,479
remained under Ottoman authority. But there's an interesting dynamic here

1364
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:35,720
of a cultural nature, and this impacted powers just upbringing directly. Now,

1365
01:49:41,319 --> 01:49:45,079
all of his parents had moved to Bosnia from a

1366
01:49:47,079 --> 01:49:49,800
village that was in Croatia proper or like what what

1367
01:49:49,880 --> 01:49:54,119
would be in Croatia within Croatia propers borders today. His

1368
01:49:54,279 --> 01:49:57,479
father had done so to work on UH the Sarajevo

1369
01:49:59,479 --> 01:50:04,640
rail line, but ultimately as a small child, the family

1370
01:50:04,760 --> 01:50:09,119
settled in a village called gi Zitto or Ja Zero

1371
01:50:10,119 --> 01:50:14,119
or public in a primary school. But Zero was a

1372
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:21,359
Bosnia majority domain. It was overwhelmingly sunny Moslim, so pabolish

1373
01:50:21,399 --> 01:50:23,239
the crowd he attended.

1374
01:50:23,399 --> 01:50:23,520
Speaker 1: UH.

1375
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:28,479
Speaker 2: The primary schools he attended were maktub like a maktab

1376
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:31,760
is a is like an Islamic elementary school. Okay, So

1377
01:50:31,920 --> 01:50:37,039
Pablics learned published until the day he died, you know,

1378
01:50:37,640 --> 01:50:41,119
confessed his sins and went to mass daily. But he

1379
01:50:41,319 --> 01:50:45,399
was raised literally like in Moslim traditions and lessons, and

1380
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:47,640
he knew the deep wore of his lamb like he

1381
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:50,479
knew it's like liturgical practice, like he knew like it's

1382
01:50:51,920 --> 01:50:54,399
he knew everything about it. He was like almost he

1383
01:50:54,479 --> 01:50:57,680
was almost like half raised as like a Maslim. Okay.

1384
01:51:01,279 --> 01:51:05,680
And this is why in the NBA Sunni Islam was

1385
01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:11,840
the other state religion, along with Catholicism and uh Hanjar.

1386
01:51:12,960 --> 01:51:20,600
The bosniakafnss it's national identifier was first Croatian because official

1387
01:51:20,680 --> 01:51:26,119
policy by order of povl It was it was that

1388
01:51:26,279 --> 01:51:31,439
Bosnian Muslims are racial Croatians, and I'm going to I'm

1389
01:51:31,479 --> 01:51:34,199
gonna make people happy because like I brought like props today.

1390
01:51:35,279 --> 01:51:38,439
This is like the fez that like Hanjar like division

1391
01:51:38,479 --> 01:51:42,640
would where can people see that? I think this is awesome,

1392
01:51:43,359 --> 01:51:45,640
Like uh, the other people don't. But it's like literally

1393
01:51:45,720 --> 01:51:49,800
like a fez with a totem Kopp and a reich Saddler.

1394
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:51,880
You know, I don't think it would look too like

1395
01:51:51,960 --> 01:51:54,479
cool on me, but like it's it's just freaking cool.

1396
01:51:55,079 --> 01:51:56,560
But but I mean, this is the this is like

1397
01:51:56,600 --> 01:51:59,560
I'm seriously like this was taken. This wasn't just like superficial.

1398
01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:08,640
So you know, Pavlic was h quintessentially cosmopolitan and like

1399
01:52:08,720 --> 01:52:11,520
that even more than it was apparent in his early

1400
01:52:11,600 --> 01:52:21,520
life as we'll get into but he uh he As

1401
01:52:21,560 --> 01:52:27,640
he became a teenager and a young adult, he had

1402
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:29,880
a he had a much older brother who lived in

1403
01:52:30,039 --> 01:52:36,439
uh in Zagreb and during kind of like as as

1404
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:40,399
as police got an adolescence when he was attending school

1405
01:52:40,520 --> 01:52:42,880
and trad and he became a hero in a nationalist

1406
01:52:43,520 --> 01:52:47,239
idealogues like guys who who proceeded what we came with

1407
01:52:47,279 --> 01:52:51,800
the Croatian Party of rights first and foremost a guy

1408
01:52:51,880 --> 01:52:58,199
named uh Anteashevich was like an early uh like like

1409
01:52:58,399 --> 01:53:02,840
like you know, like like froat nationalist, you know, and

1410
01:53:03,000 --> 01:53:06,079
like one of his uh like one of one of

1411
01:53:06,119 --> 01:53:11,000
the one of his that one of his, like like

1412
01:53:11,039 --> 01:53:18,760
one of his followers or or uh one of the

1413
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:23,560
guys he mentored kind of like in in In in

1414
01:53:23,640 --> 01:53:25,920
the art of uh In philosophy of like you know,

1415
01:53:26,000 --> 01:53:30,439
political warfare was a you'll said Frank, who later became

1416
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:33,479
like the leader of the Party of Rights. But Polloch's

1417
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:35,640
notion was like, well, this is great that you know,

1418
01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:38,159
crowds have like this kind of like of Covid, this

1419
01:53:38,239 --> 01:53:41,840
kind of like racial sense of self, you know, and

1420
01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:45,159
and kind of a path forward for an independent state.

1421
01:53:45,680 --> 01:53:47,520
But his concern was that, like this is too much

1422
01:53:47,560 --> 01:53:51,479
of like a peasant phenomenon. But when he when he

1423
01:53:51,720 --> 01:53:55,039
when he when he went to stay with his elder

1424
01:53:55,119 --> 01:53:59,800
brother in Zagreb, like he realized that, you know, the

1425
01:54:00,399 --> 01:54:04,600
dialect was very much alive in Zagreb and people were

1426
01:54:04,640 --> 01:54:12,119
openly identifying, you know in you know, in what we're

1427
01:54:12,159 --> 01:54:17,399
traditionally you know, cosmopol and Habsburg cities, you know, croats.

1428
01:54:17,439 --> 01:54:20,199
We're living openly as Croats. I mean, I'm not trying

1429
01:54:20,199 --> 01:54:21,840
to be silly, but i mean like I'm trying to

1430
01:54:21,880 --> 01:54:24,079
think of the best way to characterize it and that

1431
01:54:26,800 --> 01:54:29,319
and that that. From that point on, you know, like

1432
01:54:29,439 --> 01:54:33,439
he public realized like this was this was a viable

1433
01:54:33,479 --> 01:54:39,000
way forward. Okay again as like a vang artist like

1434
01:54:40,079 --> 01:54:45,840
revolutionary imperative, you know, like again, this was the the

1435
01:54:47,560 --> 01:54:55,439
Yugoslav situation was nothing at all like the Viymor situation. It. Uh.

1436
01:54:56,319 --> 01:54:59,560
Polish was always beset by health problems from the time

1437
01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:01,960
he was like kid until he was murdered, like you know,

1438
01:55:03,600 --> 01:55:05,560
years after the war. And we'll get into that in

1439
01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:13,800
a later episode. But he uh he ultimately, he ultimately

1440
01:55:13,880 --> 01:55:21,439
took a law degree as a frankly, it was like

1441
01:55:21,520 --> 01:55:25,319
part of the chorus for partisans of the time on

1442
01:55:25,439 --> 01:55:32,000
both sides of the idological divide revolutionaries. Rather, he obtained

1443
01:55:32,039 --> 01:55:37,800
his doctorate in nineteenth July ninety fifteen, and he basically

1444
01:55:38,039 --> 01:55:41,199
uh he joined the Croatian part of the rights formally

1445
01:55:43,399 --> 01:55:47,840
around nineteen eighteen and worked as a lawyer in Zagreb.

1446
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:54,760
It was uh nineteen twenty nine when his kind of

1447
01:55:54,840 --> 01:56:04,039
radicalization and tactical terms at least really ossified, and that

1448
01:56:04,119 --> 01:56:07,399
was around the time or it was it was literally

1449
01:56:07,399 --> 01:56:09,520
as it was at the same time as what became

1450
01:56:09,560 --> 01:56:13,239
to be known as the January Dictatorship January sixth, ninety

1451
01:56:13,279 --> 01:56:19,960
twenty nine, part literally a royal dictatorship was declared and

1452
01:56:20,119 --> 01:56:22,439
what was then the Kingdom of Serbs Cross and Slovenes,

1453
01:56:22,840 --> 01:56:25,560
King Alexander the first we talked about some in our

1454
01:56:25,560 --> 01:56:32,439
World War One episodes. Alexander's notion was quite literally to

1455
01:56:32,560 --> 01:56:37,159
create a Yugoslav ideology and a single Yugoslav nation, you know,

1456
01:56:37,279 --> 01:56:42,039
like under his dictatorship through you know, a combination of

1457
01:56:43,760 --> 01:56:48,960
of of a population force, population transfer, suppression of discrete languages,

1458
01:56:49,560 --> 01:56:54,760
presumably you know, outright suppression of the Islamic religion. You know, UH,

1459
01:56:56,359 --> 01:56:59,680
attempts to strip the Cross of the ability to pursue

1460
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:08,039
and express culture and in public and shared forums. It

1461
01:57:08,479 --> 01:57:11,399
ended in nineteen thirty one with the adoption of Yugoslav

1462
01:57:11,479 --> 01:57:14,880
constitution what was called the Yugoslat ninth round Uslut Constitution.

1463
01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:18,239
But the but the damage was done, Okay, Any people

1464
01:57:18,319 --> 01:57:26,079
realize that in their view, UH, the two probable outcomes

1465
01:57:26,720 --> 01:57:30,960
for any Yugoslavian enterprises, either that there's going to be

1466
01:57:31,039 --> 01:57:38,039
a Chetnik dictatorship, you know, with the alibi or the

1467
01:57:38,159 --> 01:57:40,239
mask rather of oh, this is you know, a multi

1468
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:44,399
this is a multi ethnic state. You know, we're all

1469
01:57:44,760 --> 01:57:48,000
where the rights of all all the all three ethnic

1470
01:57:48,039 --> 01:57:50,600
groups are are honored. Or it was going to be,

1471
01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:55,079
you know, uh, it was going to be a matter

1472
01:57:55,159 --> 01:57:57,800
of you know, the act of suppression essentially of all

1473
01:57:59,039 --> 01:58:02,239
of all cultural Russian, not unlike what's happening in the

1474
01:58:02,319 --> 01:58:06,520
Soviet Union, you know, under the but without even the

1475
01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:09,800
kind of ideological culture of Marcist Leninism to prop it up.

1476
01:58:10,079 --> 01:58:13,000
You know, this kind of this kind of utterly contrived

1477
01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:16,880
you know, Yugoslavism as a little more than a pretext

1478
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:23,239
for you know, the crushing of of discreet historical identities

1479
01:58:24,760 --> 01:58:30,720
at this time published formerly organized the Eustaship. I have

1480
01:58:30,880 --> 01:58:34,039
absolutely no fluency in serbral croat as I understand it,

1481
01:58:34,119 --> 01:58:36,159
and I'm sure the fellows who do will correct me

1482
01:58:36,199 --> 01:58:39,359
if I'm wrong. I believe USTA should roughly translates to

1483
01:58:39,560 --> 01:58:48,520
insurgents or insurgency. Okay. The official founding in Ustacial lore

1484
01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:51,840
like to this day, is that the party was founded

1485
01:58:51,920 --> 01:59:00,119
on January seventh, nineteen twenty nine, It was around this

1486
01:59:00,279 --> 01:59:07,680
time UH published came under basically like constant um police surveillance.

1487
01:59:09,239 --> 01:59:12,399
During one during a lapse in this surveillance, uh he

1488
01:59:13,000 --> 01:59:22,560
fled to Austria and uh proceeded like nominally under the

1489
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:26,199
with with under the predext of you know, seeking medical treatment.

1490
01:59:27,039 --> 01:59:30,039
But it's not going health problems there. You know, Vienna

1491
01:59:30,079 --> 01:59:32,800
at that time was completely lit, you know, by conspiratorial

1492
01:59:32,920 --> 01:59:36,239
designs and people pursuing those designs, and I mean that

1493
01:59:36,399 --> 01:59:37,920
that was the place to be frankly, if you were

1494
01:59:37,920 --> 01:59:40,800
trying to accomplish what he was trying to accomplish. You know,

1495
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:45,600
he he made he made contact with other craigras who were,

1496
01:59:45,880 --> 01:59:51,520
you know, looking for some kind of catalyzing or organizational imperative,

1497
01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:56,239
you know, to develop cadres. Most of these guys were

1498
01:59:56,279 --> 02:00:00,079
political refugees, you know, they've been chased out of of

1499
02:00:00,920 --> 02:00:04,279
Soviet territory, or they were being terrorized by the Yugoslavian

1500
02:00:04,319 --> 02:00:07,960
secret police, you know, or they were they were for

1501
02:00:08,159 --> 02:00:13,680
Habsburg army officers, you know, who'd refused to return Yugoslavia,

1502
02:00:13,840 --> 02:00:16,119
you know, after the succession of you know, chetnik and

1503
02:00:17,159 --> 02:00:27,319
royalist intrigues. After a short stay there where he made

1504
02:00:27,359 --> 02:00:33,960
contact with, among other people, some Bulgarian radicals. What a

1505
02:00:34,039 --> 02:00:37,920
similar you know, with similar ambitions in mind to their

1506
02:00:37,960 --> 02:00:43,279
own peoples. He moved to Budapest, where there was a

1507
02:00:43,359 --> 02:00:49,520
more kind of welcoming environment for partisans the right Okay.

1508
02:00:52,840 --> 02:00:59,680
In March of nineteen twenty nine, the Eustasha elements still

1509
02:00:59,720 --> 02:01:05,960
within Yugoslavia undertook a campaign a direct action, the first

1510
02:01:06,520 --> 02:01:11,399
incidents of which was the assassination of A Tony Schigel

1511
02:01:12,119 --> 02:01:16,039
in Zagre. Schigel was basically a regime mouthpiece. He was

1512
02:01:16,199 --> 02:01:21,039
editor of at the top newspaper in Zagora. It was

1513
02:01:21,079 --> 02:01:23,479
a close comment on a King Alexander and Verty much

1514
02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:26,800
the mouthpiece of the regime. Like uh Lewis is should

1515
02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:34,039
murdered him? Well, this was going on the pavlic. Uh

1516
02:01:34,840 --> 02:01:41,840
He managed established contact with an element that was known

1517
02:01:41,880 --> 02:01:46,399
as the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. This is about a

1518
02:01:46,439 --> 02:01:53,159
month subsequent to the murder of a Schlegel. Schlegel or Schligel,

1519
02:01:53,159 --> 02:02:00,880
I think it's Schlagel, but and the uh He in

1520
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:03,720
some of his contexts Bulgarian contexts that he made in Vienna.

1521
02:02:03,840 --> 02:02:10,439
They traveled to Bulgaria in April. This led to the

1522
02:02:10,560 --> 02:02:17,960
signing by a number of partisans ethno nationalist partisan types

1523
02:02:18,840 --> 02:02:24,079
of what came to be the Sofia Declaration. It formalized

1524
02:02:24,159 --> 02:02:32,119
up It formalized cooperation between Croatian, Macedonian and Bulgarian radicals

1525
02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:38,800
like radical nationalists were posed, uh, you know, the the

1526
02:02:38,880 --> 02:02:41,920
Belgrade regime as well as the the communists and the

1527
02:02:42,000 --> 02:02:52,119
chip Nicks. Yuoslavia formally protested the government and Sofia publics

1528
02:02:52,239 --> 02:02:55,960
was then he was tried for high treason and absentia

1529
02:02:56,800 --> 02:03:01,960
and sentenced to death on the seventeenth of August nineteen

1530
02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:07,600
twenty nine. Owing to that verdict, a month subsequent, in September,

1531
02:03:07,920 --> 02:03:15,800
Publisher was arrested in Vienna. The Viennese, or sympathetic, at

1532
02:03:15,880 --> 02:03:19,279
least those in the security apparatus, you know, had more

1533
02:03:19,319 --> 02:03:24,680
than a fledging sympathy for him and his cause. Rather

1534
02:03:24,760 --> 02:03:32,840
than extraditing him, they expelled him to Germany. This caused

1535
02:03:32,880 --> 02:03:42,279
some problems because at this time there were still formally

1536
02:03:42,319 --> 02:03:47,079
good offices dilomatically speaking between Germany and Yugoslavia. The German

1537
02:03:47,119 --> 02:03:52,800
and Batchigoslavia was a typical foreign ministry veteran of the

1538
02:03:52,840 --> 02:03:57,520
time named Adolf cost was a supporter of Yugoslavia. He

1539
02:03:57,640 --> 02:04:02,199
was literally a personal friend of Tom Alexander, so this

1540
02:04:03,399 --> 02:04:10,960
obviously not bode well for Poblished before this kind of

1541
02:04:11,520 --> 02:04:16,960
hostile sentiment from you know, costas friends and my places

1542
02:04:17,000 --> 02:04:21,560
could develop into truly threatening police action against his person.

1543
02:04:21,680 --> 02:04:26,159
Published left Germany under an assumed name and went to Italy,

1544
02:04:26,479 --> 02:04:29,079
where he already had family as well as in theological contacts.

1545
02:04:29,920 --> 02:04:32,720
Now in Italy, at least for a couple of years,

1546
02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:37,079
he frequently changed location and lived under a false name.

1547
02:04:38,800 --> 02:04:42,920
He lived as an Italian national with his assuming identity

1548
02:04:42,960 --> 02:04:47,000
was at an Italian national, most Alban's Antonio Sendar or Serdar.

1549
02:04:50,119 --> 02:04:52,800
He had contact with Italian authorities at least you know,

1550
02:04:52,840 --> 02:04:56,199
the intelligence apparatus of the Fishes since at least ninety

1551
02:04:56,239 --> 02:05:00,600
twenty six, nine twenty seven. In n twenty nine he

1552
02:05:00,640 --> 02:05:07,239
managed established deeper contexts and through his UH friends in

1553
02:05:07,279 --> 02:05:10,279
the legal profession as well as some as well as

1554
02:05:10,279 --> 02:05:16,039
some radical right journalists that he befriended, he managed to

1555
02:05:16,239 --> 02:05:21,800
UH court. Mussolini's brother, Ornaldo Mussolini, was a strong supporter

1556
02:05:21,880 --> 02:05:27,000
of crowd independence, just outright and like a very like

1557
02:05:27,079 --> 02:05:32,359
a very like hardline fascist. Publish again owing to whether

1558
02:05:32,399 --> 02:05:35,439
it's his cosmopolitan upbringing or just his kind of natural

1559
02:05:35,560 --> 02:05:41,359
intelligence for sociological affairs. Wherever he went, he seemed to

1560
02:05:41,399 --> 02:05:44,560
create a basic sympathy and understanding of the crowd situation

1561
02:05:44,640 --> 02:05:48,880
among Italians, at least Italian fascist and adjacent wright wingers.

1562
02:05:49,319 --> 02:05:55,319
He was very good at this. Okay, that Fall Publish

1563
02:05:55,399 --> 02:06:02,039
published what became a widely circulated treaties really more than

1564
02:06:02,079 --> 02:06:04,079
a brochure of a less than like an actual book.

1565
02:06:05,159 --> 02:06:07,199
This ends us being widely circulated in the Third Reich,

1566
02:06:07,319 --> 02:06:15,600
especially in later years, which uh became significant for various reasons.

1567
02:06:15,680 --> 02:06:18,159
But this this, this is this brochure, if you, was

1568
02:06:18,199 --> 02:06:21,720
called the Salesment of the Croatian State Lasting Peace in

1569
02:06:21,760 --> 02:06:25,520
the Balkans, which was kind of like a it's like

1570
02:06:25,560 --> 02:06:28,880
a it was a summary of Croatian history, you know,

1571
02:06:28,960 --> 02:06:31,760
from kind of like the the you know, the the

1572
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:39,159
Habsburg German like and and and adjacent Ustaship perspective. The

1573
02:06:39,239 --> 02:06:42,600
Italian authorities did not want to formally support the Ustaship,

1574
02:06:44,079 --> 02:06:46,920
not just because I believe it or not at this time,

1575
02:06:47,000 --> 02:06:48,840
and we made the point before, you know, kind of

1576
02:06:48,880 --> 02:06:52,039
like the zenith of this was Musolini presiding over the

1577
02:06:52,079 --> 02:06:57,600
four powers packed. But Musolini was he didn't seem it

1578
02:06:57,720 --> 02:06:59,920
himself as this as this is. It's kind of like

1579
02:07:01,359 --> 02:07:04,279
is this kind of like great negotiator who like presided

1580
02:07:04,359 --> 02:07:09,239
over these kinds of diplomatic concords and like it leads

1581
02:07:09,279 --> 02:07:15,039
a stabilizing influence. So the Italians for all of it's uh,

1582
02:07:16,119 --> 02:07:19,680
for for all of its revolutionary aptitude and capturing power,

1583
02:07:20,199 --> 02:07:23,600
like the fascists in this epoch and especially before the

1584
02:07:23,680 --> 02:07:26,920
non solution things, they were behaving very much like a

1585
02:07:27,039 --> 02:07:30,680
national conservative party, and a lot of these guys authority,

1586
02:07:30,920 --> 02:07:33,039
they didn't want to they didn't want to openly support

1587
02:07:33,239 --> 02:07:36,960
some like some like radical right partisan you know, like

1588
02:07:37,119 --> 02:07:39,920
poplished and like the Ustaship, you know, to protect the

1589
02:07:39,960 --> 02:07:43,199
reputation and for sake of optics of nothing else. And

1590
02:07:43,279 --> 02:07:46,039
that's important to understand. This is like an odd period

1591
02:07:46,159 --> 02:07:52,159
and in kind of like the the Inner Warriors, but

1592
02:07:53,159 --> 02:07:57,119
Mussolini saw them as a Mussolini at all, first and

1593
02:07:57,199 --> 02:08:02,279
foremost wanted to destroy Yugoslavia and the capture you know,

1594
02:08:02,720 --> 02:08:09,680
some kind of ingress of the Adriatic. So Publish almost

1595
02:08:09,760 --> 02:08:13,000
undoubtedly received personal support from Mussolini, and so did the

1596
02:08:13,119 --> 02:08:18,319
Ustasha generally like their offices in in Zagreb and elsewhere.

1597
02:08:20,680 --> 02:08:23,880
And towards that end, Mussolini allowed Publish to remain in

1598
02:08:23,960 --> 02:08:29,479
exile in Rome and openly trained his paramilitaries in preparation

1599
02:08:29,560 --> 02:08:35,560
for war with Yugoslavia. And UH Publish made it so.

1600
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:43,760
He developed association with Croatian expats in Italy as well

1601
02:08:43,800 --> 02:08:47,600
as as well as HAPs for garment veterans and UH

1602
02:08:48,439 --> 02:08:55,720
Germans uh Volksdeutsch who were had direct connection, direct links

1603
02:08:55,760 --> 02:08:58,520
to the to the to the government of the Reich,

1604
02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:03,439
and a lot of these guys had very strong like

1605
02:09:03,600 --> 02:09:07,119
military experience. Okay, So he was making all that, he

1606
02:09:07,199 --> 02:09:09,880
was making all the right moves and connecting with all

1607
02:09:09,920 --> 02:09:12,920
the right people to accomplish what he wanted to accomplish.

1608
02:09:15,520 --> 02:09:19,199
Nineteen thirty one, again a financial up from Mussolini, Pobles

1609
02:09:19,319 --> 02:09:27,119
established formal camps for partisans, first UH in Boveno, Italy,

1610
02:09:29,039 --> 02:09:37,279
and ultimately UH there was camps you know, throughout throughout

1611
02:09:37,319 --> 02:09:41,319
Italy and as well as Hungary and almost certainly Bosnia,

1612
02:09:41,399 --> 02:09:51,039
though under obviously like deep cover. The UH. This created

1613
02:09:53,800 --> 02:09:57,760
this this, this, this, this kind of infrastructure facility A

1614
02:09:57,840 --> 02:10:04,880
Mussolini facilitated the smuggling of weapons and political literature in

1615
02:10:04,920 --> 02:10:11,479
Tropaganda into Yugoslavia proper. The camps were moved around constantly,

1616
02:10:14,000 --> 02:10:16,239
again at the behest of Mussolini, which you know, and

1617
02:10:17,279 --> 02:10:22,000
Musolini was kind of like he like shined brightest when

1618
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:26,960
he was charged with a revolutionary task. You know, once

1619
02:10:28,239 --> 02:10:32,199
such revolutions had been ambitions have been consolidated, Mussolin didn't

1620
02:10:32,239 --> 02:10:35,199
shine so bright, but he was very much in his

1621
02:10:35,279 --> 02:10:40,039
element here, and Poblich was very, very fortunate to be

1622
02:10:40,119 --> 02:10:43,439
able to curry his favor and learn from him. And

1623
02:10:43,560 --> 02:10:46,319
again that's why politics can't be just be dismissed as

1624
02:10:46,359 --> 02:10:51,399
some third rate dictator or something. What he accomplished here

1625
02:10:51,880 --> 02:10:56,760
basically as a wanted man showing up in Rome without

1626
02:10:56,840 --> 02:11:00,199
any particular cloud or money and just you know, within

1627
02:11:01,199 --> 02:11:04,239
within months, you know, getting an ear with al Duce.

1628
02:11:04,439 --> 02:11:08,319
That's nothing sort of remarkable, that's Hitler like, and it's

1629
02:11:08,439 --> 02:11:18,560
an unlikelihood of ascendancy. But the Ustasha have managed to

1630
02:11:20,119 --> 02:11:25,920
establish adjacent associations not just of ethnic cross but a

1631
02:11:26,000 --> 02:11:31,720
sympathetic fascist and national socialist all throughout Western Europe and

1632
02:11:32,239 --> 02:11:36,399
in Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Brazil, and even in the United

1633
02:11:36,439 --> 02:11:42,279
States and Canada did agree to which the croas developed

1634
02:11:42,319 --> 02:11:50,279
a kind of outsized cloud and national socialists and fascists

1635
02:11:50,279 --> 02:11:52,800
and adjacent circles, like they can't be overstated. I mean,

1636
02:11:52,840 --> 02:11:55,079
this is a tiny country with like a very very

1637
02:11:55,199 --> 02:11:57,680
small XPA community is because there's not that many of them,

1638
02:11:57,720 --> 02:12:02,479
and the fact that there's this kind of reach is incredible,

1639
02:12:03,039 --> 02:12:05,439
I think. I mean, obviously I'm gonna admire a pobliss

1640
02:12:05,479 --> 02:12:08,479
I mean, I think it's being unclear by now, but

1641
02:12:10,319 --> 02:12:21,640
the uh this undoubtedly in ninety three, as as these

1642
02:12:21,680 --> 02:12:25,560
elements who had been training diligently were turned loose. You know,

1643
02:12:25,600 --> 02:12:27,840
there's a series of bombings and shootings in the us

1644
02:12:27,920 --> 02:12:31,359
Lavia proper which led to just this blanket cracked down

1645
02:12:31,399 --> 02:12:34,319
a political activity as the state declared, you know, a

1646
02:12:34,359 --> 02:12:43,560
state of emergency and this counter terrorist regime. It it

1647
02:12:43,720 --> 02:12:50,680
exploited that mandate to profoundly abuse impoverished crot peasants, you know,

1648
02:12:52,039 --> 02:12:54,920
the brutality towards which was almost always meted out by

1649
02:12:55,359 --> 02:13:02,880
by Serbian police and and insecurity elements. So this was

1650
02:13:03,039 --> 02:13:05,800
kind of like a splendid example of cultivating a strategy attention,

1651
02:13:06,039 --> 02:13:08,039
you know, like among among other things, in order to

1652
02:13:08,119 --> 02:13:12,760
facilitate the emergency of a revolutionary paradigm beyond the kind

1653
02:13:12,800 --> 02:13:21,800
of narrow cadre structure. We've been going for like an

1654
02:13:21,840 --> 02:13:23,720
hour and twenty minutes and I still probably got another

1655
02:13:23,800 --> 02:13:26,439
hour material. I'm thinking if we get break in a

1656
02:13:26,479 --> 02:13:29,199
minute and then take this up in the next episode,

1657
02:13:30,680 --> 02:13:34,800
that would be fantastic. Let's do it. Let's take Yeah. Well,

1658
02:13:35,399 --> 02:13:37,399
I forgive me if that was too like long winded,

1659
02:13:37,439 --> 02:13:41,079
but there's a lot here and next episode will we'll

1660
02:13:41,159 --> 02:13:44,279
we'll deal with this, you know, the the formal ascendancy

1661
02:13:44,560 --> 02:13:49,680
of Pavlich to the office of Poklovnik, and you know,

1662
02:13:49,760 --> 02:13:51,800
the war years and sick for cash and all of

1663
02:13:51,840 --> 02:13:54,199
that stuff. I didn't realize it been going on that long.

1664
02:13:54,359 --> 02:13:58,159
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's okay, Yeah, thanks, Yeah, do plugs real quick.

1665
02:13:58,239 --> 02:13:58,880
We'll get out here.

1666
02:13:59,319 --> 02:14:06,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man. You can always find me on substack real

1667
02:14:06,520 --> 02:14:09,600
Thomas seven seven seven dot substick dot com. Actually can

1668
02:14:09,600 --> 02:14:11,479
always find me on my website. That's the best kind

1669
02:14:11,520 --> 02:14:14,640
of one stop place to find my content of all kinds.

1670
02:14:15,079 --> 02:14:18,680
It's literally Thomas seven seven seven dot com number seven

1671
02:14:19,119 --> 02:14:22,119
h O A S seven seven seven dot com. You

1672
02:14:22,119 --> 02:14:24,960
can hit me up on Telegram it's Thomas Graham again

1673
02:14:25,079 --> 02:14:28,239
number seven h O A S. Graham. You can find

1674
02:14:28,279 --> 02:14:31,600
me on x uh real capital r e A L

1675
02:14:31,840 --> 02:14:36,600
underscore number seven h O A S seven seven seven. Yeah,

1676
02:14:36,640 --> 02:14:39,239
we're we're all over the place in this in this

1677
02:14:39,359 --> 02:14:42,960
bitch man. Oh on my Instagram too, So you're gonna

1678
02:14:43,000 --> 02:14:45,039
like if you if you like, you can find like

1679
02:14:45,159 --> 02:14:46,840
my my photographs if you want to.

1680
02:14:47,600 --> 02:14:50,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I never go on I rarely

1681
02:14:50,880 --> 02:14:53,720
go on Instagram. Sometimes someone will link me like something

1682
02:14:53,760 --> 02:14:57,960
on Instagram, like yeah or something, and it'll take me

1683
02:14:58,079 --> 02:15:01,560
to it, and then I'll back out of it and inevitably.

1684
02:15:01,039 --> 02:15:01,640
Speaker 2: There you are.

1685
02:15:01,800 --> 02:15:05,560
Speaker 1: There's your Instagram because you're like only one of you're

1686
02:15:05,640 --> 02:15:08,000
one of very few people that I follow, so it's

1687
02:15:08,000 --> 02:15:10,840
like I but I always see your posts.

1688
02:15:11,319 --> 02:15:13,439
Speaker 2: It's like it's I take like a lot of photos,

1689
02:15:13,479 --> 02:15:14,880
you know, and like Instagram, it's kind of like I

1690
02:15:14,920 --> 02:15:17,039
don't like the user interface and like there it's full

1691
02:15:17,039 --> 02:15:20,399
of bots and and like creepy bullshit, like porn bullshit.

1692
02:15:20,880 --> 02:15:23,119
But it's some you know, I mean, it's a good

1693
02:15:24,159 --> 02:15:26,439
there's like that's why I met like Nego Klaw and stuff,

1694
02:15:26,479 --> 02:15:29,000
and like it's it's a good place to reach out,

1695
02:15:29,159 --> 02:15:33,600
especially the kind of like artsy people who are like

1696
02:15:33,920 --> 02:15:36,800
politically politically adjacent but not really kind of like in

1697
02:15:37,199 --> 02:15:41,880
in the sphere of activity. But it's also it's just

1698
02:15:41,960 --> 02:15:44,359
like a good repository of like photos man, you know,

1699
02:15:44,439 --> 02:15:46,880
and it's it's I can rationalize like dumping a lot

1700
02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:49,479
of photos there without feeling like a fucking guro.

1701
02:15:51,760 --> 02:15:55,560
Speaker 1: All right, till the next time. Thank you, Thomas. I

1702
02:15:55,640 --> 02:15:59,279
want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanona Show. Thomas

1703
02:15:59,439 --> 02:16:03,359
is here and part three of the Balkans. How are

1704
02:16:03,399 --> 02:16:03,680
you doing?

1705
02:16:04,800 --> 02:16:09,119
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. Thanks for hosting me. Of course, some

1706
02:16:09,279 --> 02:16:12,560
people got upset thinking that I wasn't telling the Serbian

1707
02:16:12,720 --> 02:16:15,000
side of the story. I mean, that wasn't my intention

1708
02:16:15,119 --> 02:16:18,479
at all. Like I got kind of irritated and I

1709
02:16:18,560 --> 02:16:20,479
wasn't feeling very well. So if I said some things

1710
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:23,520
that upset people, I mean in response to some of

1711
02:16:23,560 --> 02:16:27,560
their complaints, I wasn't trying to be up too. The

1712
02:16:27,640 --> 02:16:29,600
reason why I focused on the Croatian side is for

1713
02:16:29,680 --> 02:16:32,959
a few reasons. The whole Raizon detra of what the

1714
02:16:33,040 --> 02:16:37,200
State Department did. Even after even post Bush and Baker,

1715
02:16:37,360 --> 02:16:39,479
I'll be out of the Clint administration like went about

1716
02:16:39,479 --> 02:16:42,280
it in kind of any illiterate way in terms of

1717
02:16:42,280 --> 02:16:44,639
their rationale. I mean, like the military in those days

1718
02:16:44,760 --> 02:16:48,600
was still pretty they had their stuff together operationally. But

1719
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:53,360
to understand why Helmet Cole did what he did, understand

1720
02:16:53,719 --> 02:16:57,319
what the view was from Washington, you've got to you've

1721
02:16:57,319 --> 02:16:59,920
got to look at what the Croatians were doing. Okay,

1722
02:17:00,079 --> 02:17:02,799
that's why today I'm gonna take up what the Serbian

1723
02:17:02,879 --> 02:17:06,680
case was and why it was entirely misguided for them

1724
02:17:06,719 --> 02:17:10,799
to be accused of starting the wars. They absolutely didn't.

1725
02:17:11,959 --> 02:17:13,559
I mean that that's that's asked on any way, to

1726
02:17:13,600 --> 02:17:16,000
claim that, you know, an ethnic conflict is like a

1727
02:17:16,079 --> 02:17:18,959
schoolyard fight and and some party combat and it's oh,

1728
02:17:19,040 --> 02:17:23,319
it's their fault. That's not how things work. And even

1729
02:17:23,360 --> 02:17:26,159
though he even though he doesn't gain a lot of sympathy,

1730
02:17:26,239 --> 02:17:28,360
I mean even from like his own people like I

1731
02:17:28,639 --> 02:17:30,520
I found slobod on the lowst Divage to actually be

1732
02:17:30,600 --> 02:17:33,440
quite a sympathetic figure what was done with with the Hague.

1733
02:17:33,559 --> 02:17:36,040
He was quite literally killed by being put on trial,

1734
02:17:36,200 --> 02:17:41,159
and I mean that was grotesque. I've actually always considered

1735
02:17:41,200 --> 02:17:45,799
myself to be pretty sympathetic to the Chetnik cause. I

1736
02:17:45,879 --> 02:17:49,440
mean not not because I find common cause with it,

1737
02:17:49,600 --> 02:17:51,479
but I mean I I'm sim of that to anybody

1738
02:17:51,559 --> 02:17:57,159
who you know, who's whose ambition is to address the

1739
02:17:57,319 --> 02:18:01,559
historical grievance of their people and in a way that

1740
02:18:01,680 --> 02:18:05,120
guarantees their posterity in the future. So today we're go

1741
02:18:05,200 --> 02:18:07,479
get a little bit into like the Serbian situation as

1742
02:18:07,559 --> 02:18:10,760
it was in nineteen ninety one, and why you know,

1743
02:18:10,840 --> 02:18:15,040
Meloseovich was basically somebody who was He was the only

1744
02:18:15,840 --> 02:18:19,840
as ahead of state other than Gerzelski, who doesn't really count.

1745
02:18:22,000 --> 02:18:24,760
He was the only he was the only Communist functionary

1746
02:18:26,000 --> 02:18:29,120
who made in an executive role after the inner German

1747
02:18:29,200 --> 02:18:33,680
border collapsed, which is interesting. So this idea that he

1748
02:18:33,840 --> 02:18:38,000
was some archchetnik, genocidal mediac, I mean that, I mean,

1749
02:18:38,040 --> 02:18:42,360
that's that that's just that's that's a propaganda narrative anyway.

1750
02:18:42,479 --> 02:18:47,120
But you know, were they were those stripes, I mean,

1751
02:18:47,159 --> 02:18:51,280
he wouldn't he wouldn't have enjoyed the posterity he did,

1752
02:18:52,200 --> 02:18:54,719
which should be obvious. But wellokre some of that stuff

1753
02:18:54,760 --> 02:19:03,719
today and hopefully people will realizing that, you know, trying

1754
02:19:03,799 --> 02:19:09,000
to assign blame to any party combat and dur any side.

1755
02:19:09,000 --> 02:19:11,239
I mean, I don't do that anyway. I mean, there's rare.

1756
02:19:11,479 --> 02:19:14,920
One of the reasons why the Ukraine situation is bizarre,

1757
02:19:14,959 --> 02:19:17,559
it's because it's a rare case of quite literally a

1758
02:19:17,639 --> 02:19:20,959
conspiracy to provoke an irrational war that almost never happens,

1759
02:19:21,719 --> 02:19:27,079
you know. But even in that case, obviously there's there's

1760
02:19:27,840 --> 02:19:30,360
conditions on the ground that make that possible. It's not

1761
02:19:30,520 --> 02:19:35,319
just some sort of spontaneous contrivance or conspiratorial design made real,

1762
02:19:35,399 --> 02:19:40,319
because that's not that's not how political affairs develop. But

1763
02:19:44,319 --> 02:19:46,959
the Third Balkan War. Misha Glenny, he's a guy who

1764
02:19:46,959 --> 02:19:50,639
I don't particularly like. I mean, he's he's basically he's

1765
02:19:50,680 --> 02:19:55,879
kind of like a typical like globalist liberal. But he

1766
02:19:56,000 --> 02:20:01,040
did actually write about the only apologia the Serbian people

1767
02:20:01,159 --> 02:20:09,719
that got like mainstream promotion, which is interesting. So he's

1768
02:20:09,799 --> 02:20:15,920
more complicated than some of his declared positions on sociological

1769
02:20:16,040 --> 02:20:21,639
things would suggest. He assigns the onset of the Third

1770
02:20:21,719 --> 02:20:25,120
Balkan War, which is what you know, people in the

1771
02:20:25,159 --> 02:20:28,600
West lump people in the West lump. The Homeland War

1772
02:20:28,959 --> 02:20:31,600
like the Bosnian War and the coast of Low conflict

1773
02:20:31,680 --> 02:20:35,719
into like one conflict. I understand why. I understand why

1774
02:20:35,799 --> 02:20:40,319
they do that, even if it's an incomplete shorthand for

1775
02:20:40,559 --> 02:20:44,920
what really is you know, free discrete conflicts that derived

1776
02:20:44,959 --> 02:20:49,040
from a common next is a causality, but something that

1777
02:20:49,079 --> 02:20:53,719
shouldn't be controversial. June twenty fifth, nineteen ninety one, that's

1778
02:20:54,799 --> 02:20:59,200
that's when hostilities arrived in the Balkans within the conflict

1779
02:20:59,319 --> 02:21:03,520
cycle that is referred to as the Third Balkan War

1780
02:21:04,000 --> 02:21:08,440
in at least an Anglophone countries. That was the date

1781
02:21:08,559 --> 02:21:12,399
that the Republican Slovenia, which led the charge towards THEE Session.

1782
02:21:12,440 --> 02:21:14,840
It wasn't the cross initially. I mean, I think they

1783
02:21:14,840 --> 02:21:17,159
would have anyway. I mean, it's an open ended question,

1784
02:21:17,360 --> 02:21:22,680
but they're the ones who who took that step that theretofore.

1785
02:21:23,840 --> 02:21:27,719
You know, tu Jaman for all of his talk of

1786
02:21:28,680 --> 02:21:32,680
creating a truly Croatian republic that like reflected you know,

1787
02:21:32,840 --> 02:21:38,760
the the singular and an exclusive culture and the Croatian people.

1788
02:21:39,440 --> 02:21:42,079
I mean, he didn't make that move, okay, until after

1789
02:21:42,079 --> 02:21:47,760
the Slovenians declared independence, after the Republic of Croatia did.

1790
02:21:49,719 --> 02:21:54,120
The Yugoslav People's Army, which was Serbian led. Some people

1791
02:21:54,559 --> 02:21:58,159
attacked me for suggesting that the security apparatus was Serb heavy.

1792
02:21:58,799 --> 02:22:02,559
Yugoslav National Army was. It wasn't overwhelmingly Serbian, but the

1793
02:22:02,639 --> 02:22:04,959
majority of general officers, to the tune of about sixty

1794
02:22:04,959 --> 02:22:07,239
and seventy percent, where ethnic Serbs. Like that, they can't

1795
02:22:07,280 --> 02:22:10,799
be denied what their symbolies were. I mean that I

1796
02:22:11,120 --> 02:22:13,479
can't tell you. I mean, I'm sure it varied. I mean,

1797
02:22:14,000 --> 02:22:21,520
but the fact of their majoritarian status can't be denied. Okay,

1798
02:22:24,719 --> 02:22:28,680
the Ugoslav army in Vados, Slovenia, and that was really

1799
02:22:28,719 --> 02:22:33,600
when the die was cast. Now the State Department claim

1800
02:22:33,719 --> 02:22:37,600
as well as what was pontificated about on the floor

1801
02:22:37,639 --> 02:22:40,799
of the United Nations, which in those days, on the

1802
02:22:40,879 --> 02:22:43,239
heels of the Gulf War, the UN still had clout,

1803
02:22:43,639 --> 02:22:47,319
which seems strange today. But there was this big hope

1804
02:22:48,239 --> 02:22:51,760
that the UN was gonna finally fulfill its you know,

1805
02:22:51,920 --> 02:22:55,120
intended function since the Cold War was over. And now

1806
02:22:56,399 --> 02:23:01,479
the reasoning was that, you know, decision making is no

1807
02:23:01,559 --> 02:23:04,799
longer going to be colored by these these kinds of

1808
02:23:04,840 --> 02:23:07,799
strategic exigencies, you know, and now the sort of community

1809
02:23:07,840 --> 02:23:09,920
and nations is going to emerge you know, and and

1810
02:23:10,000 --> 02:23:13,239
work towards like a truly globalized plege of security. That's

1811
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:15,200
as nine in my opinion, for all kinds of reasons.

1812
02:23:15,239 --> 02:23:17,559
But that was the belief and coming off of the

1813
02:23:17,639 --> 02:23:20,479
Gulf War, which really even more so than the Korean War,

1814
02:23:20,600 --> 02:23:23,120
because I mean the Korean War, the Soviets were boycotting

1815
02:23:23,200 --> 02:23:25,600
the Security Council and so it was, and so were

1816
02:23:25,600 --> 02:23:30,680
a bunch of their client states like this when one

1817
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:35,680
of Bush's master strokes was the Gulf War, and it

1818
02:23:35,799 --> 02:23:41,680
wasn't just a military operation executed with Prussian efficiency. There

1819
02:23:41,760 --> 02:23:45,000
was truly like a quorum of of of civilized nations

1820
02:23:45,040 --> 02:23:47,600
as it were, including the then still like said Soviet Union.

1821
02:23:48,799 --> 02:23:55,399
So when things what the hell in Yugoslavia, everybody, whether

1822
02:23:55,520 --> 02:23:57,520
you know, from Berlin to Paris to London and to

1823
02:23:57,600 --> 02:24:01,520
Tokyo to Washington, oh well, this is a un matter,

1824
02:24:01,799 --> 02:24:05,200
will come to some sort of we'll come to some

1825
02:24:05,319 --> 02:24:07,440
sort of you know, solution there. And we'll get into

1826
02:24:07,479 --> 02:24:14,040
that in a minute. But because in my opinion, conceptually

1827
02:24:14,159 --> 02:24:17,719
even people don't realize they're doing it, and even that

1828
02:24:17,879 --> 02:24:22,040
coterie of national leadership that was in place in nineteen

1829
02:24:22,120 --> 02:24:28,680
ninety one, globally, even the more sophisticated among them, they

1830
02:24:28,719 --> 02:24:31,159
were still sort of drunk on their own rhetoric, which

1831
02:24:32,159 --> 02:24:35,319
for decades by that point had been derived from you know,

1832
02:24:35,399 --> 02:24:39,159
the judgment levity at Nuremberg. They still were operating according

1833
02:24:39,159 --> 02:24:42,159
to this idea that, well, warfare has aggressors and victims,

1834
02:24:43,200 --> 02:24:45,760
or you know, it has people who strike first and

1835
02:24:45,840 --> 02:24:51,159
people are defending themselves. So I think a genuine prejudice

1836
02:24:51,159 --> 02:24:54,479
set in against the Setnik cause for a lot of reasons.

1837
02:24:55,360 --> 02:24:58,200
But initially the claim was, oh, you know, the US

1838
02:24:58,280 --> 02:25:01,559
law people's army, that that's a s Bean, that that's

1839
02:25:01,600 --> 02:25:07,760
a Serbian military force and all but names. So when

1840
02:25:07,760 --> 02:25:12,319
the Yugoslav Mansion army intervene and Slovenia, the claim was, oh,

1841
02:25:12,399 --> 02:25:15,319
this is an example of Serbia identism, you know, and

1842
02:25:15,440 --> 02:25:18,799
that's that's that that that's what's causing all of this.

1843
02:25:19,079 --> 02:25:24,319
And of course Newsweek, which in Time magazine and all

1844
02:25:24,360 --> 02:25:26,959
these kind of print media outlets which in those days too,

1845
02:25:27,239 --> 02:25:30,520
I mean, this is when the legacy media was argulated Zenith.

1846
02:25:31,760 --> 02:25:34,639
They started running these stories about you know, ethnic cleansing

1847
02:25:34,719 --> 02:25:38,600
and mass rate in Bosnia, and the framing of the

1848
02:25:39,520 --> 02:25:44,040
narrative was well, this is all happening because of Serbia identism,

1849
02:25:44,440 --> 02:25:47,680
you know, and Slovanon Belosovich is this mad dictator and

1850
02:25:47,719 --> 02:25:49,719
the only way he's hanging on to power is because

1851
02:25:49,760 --> 02:25:53,920
he's taken on a chetnik guy's none of which makes

1852
02:25:53,959 --> 02:25:59,559
any sense. And for context, at the beginning of nineteen

1853
02:25:59,600 --> 02:26:03,319
ninety one, on Yugoslavia, which still existed, there was a

1854
02:26:03,399 --> 02:26:08,920
federation of six republics with Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Herzegovina,

1855
02:26:09,000 --> 02:26:16,319
Montenegro and Macedonia. Plus there's two autonomous provinces, Virtual Dina

1856
02:26:16,479 --> 02:26:21,000
and Coastovoe. The eight major ethnic populations that lived in

1857
02:26:21,079 --> 02:26:24,399
those regions, they approximately correspond in the political divisions of

1858
02:26:24,440 --> 02:26:31,239
the federation, and this is by design. And in each

1859
02:26:31,319 --> 02:26:35,799
region there could each region could claim an ethnic concentration

1860
02:26:36,040 --> 02:26:41,959
that corresponded to their national signifier. But there were there

1861
02:26:42,000 --> 02:26:46,520
were deep minority populations in all of these loka. Now,

1862
02:26:49,000 --> 02:26:51,680
one big weakness in the narrative, I mean there's many, okay,

1863
02:26:52,040 --> 02:26:54,719
but one big weakness the narrative of Serbs going crazy

1864
02:26:55,879 --> 02:27:03,239
is that not not all Serbs lived in the geographic

1865
02:27:03,760 --> 02:27:08,159
region arbitually designated Serbia. There were six hundred thousand Serbs

1866
02:27:08,239 --> 02:27:13,079
lived in Croatia. The majority of these were urbanized, and

1867
02:27:13,440 --> 02:27:16,280
it went so far as tu Jaman for all, I've

1868
02:27:16,280 --> 02:27:17,840
got a lot of respect for tou Jaman and for

1869
02:27:17,959 --> 02:27:22,040
all of his sophistication as a statesman, and he wasn't

1870
02:27:22,040 --> 02:27:26,280
a military veteran, but he was basically an academic and

1871
02:27:26,840 --> 02:27:29,280
he hung around with the Serbians he hung around were

1872
02:27:29,319 --> 02:27:33,079
in Zagreb or they were cosmopolitan types, you know, who

1873
02:27:33,120 --> 02:27:37,760
he'd met in like university life. And there was the

1874
02:27:37,920 --> 02:27:45,559
urbanized Serbs in Zagreb. They had a symbiotic relationship with

1875
02:27:45,719 --> 02:27:48,360
their Croatian neighbors. Like how much of this owed to

1876
02:27:48,399 --> 02:27:50,159
the fact that they were the minority, and when you

1877
02:27:50,200 --> 02:27:52,680
were a minority, you told the line. That's an open

1878
02:27:52,799 --> 02:27:56,639
ended question. But there was even a portmanteau called Herbie,

1879
02:27:56,840 --> 02:28:04,040
which as of her body, which means cross, and serby,

1880
02:28:04,360 --> 02:28:08,280
which means serbs. So this was like a thing, all right.

1881
02:28:08,879 --> 02:28:14,239
But the core of kind of Serbian identity and patriotism

1882
02:28:15,559 --> 02:28:21,399
in Croatia it was a rural It was concentrated. Uh

1883
02:28:23,399 --> 02:28:31,479
brought slots of the countryside, particularly in Kanin Kanean, which

1884
02:28:31,559 --> 02:28:37,079
is once for context, in the medieval period that's like

1885
02:28:37,200 --> 02:28:41,280
do like the habs for Europe. That's where Croatian kings

1886
02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:47,680
were coronated. Okay, it became a militant home of Serb nationalism. Okay,

1887
02:28:47,799 --> 02:28:52,360
it's very impoverished. People's fortunes and outcomes are very limited

1888
02:28:52,399 --> 02:28:59,959
even today. It's also on the path literally to Dalmatian,

1889
02:29:01,079 --> 02:29:05,159
which is essential. That's a life splood of Croatia and

1890
02:29:05,319 --> 02:29:09,559
like the Balkans in general, Okay, for obvious reasons. You know,

1891
02:29:09,639 --> 02:29:13,239
that's that's the uh, that's the ngress and the negress

1892
02:29:13,280 --> 02:29:19,520
of the Adriatic. See these oral serbs really for the

1893
02:29:19,719 --> 02:29:22,719
I mean they these are the These are the guys

1894
02:29:22,719 --> 02:29:25,079
who are then elderly and the descendants of guys who

1895
02:29:25,920 --> 02:29:28,639
who had fought with you know, the the hail of

1896
02:29:28,680 --> 02:29:32,719
its Chetnicks, you know, like they didn't suddenly become cosmopolitans

1897
02:29:32,799 --> 02:29:37,239
who wanted to live in some Croatian republic. And Tujman,

1898
02:29:38,360 --> 02:29:40,319
now mind you, he's a guy who came up through

1899
02:29:40,360 --> 02:29:43,239
that Tito with stapparatus, So it's not like he was

1900
02:29:43,280 --> 02:29:45,319
like some arch Eusta share or something. And he wasn't

1901
02:29:45,360 --> 02:29:49,440
a fascist, despite what people claimed in Belgrade and what

1902
02:29:49,520 --> 02:29:51,799
a lot of left wingers claimed in Germany and elsewhere.

1903
02:29:52,840 --> 02:29:56,479
But he did draw upon a lot of ustas symbol

1904
02:29:57,200 --> 02:29:59,239
and he did say like, we're not gonna run from

1905
02:29:59,239 --> 02:30:01,600
our leg you know, for our heritage in the indefended

1906
02:30:01,639 --> 02:30:04,479
state of Croatia. You know, basically people who said they

1907
02:30:04,559 --> 02:30:06,520
wanted some sort of disallow of the state, He's like,

1908
02:30:06,600 --> 02:30:13,959
fuck you. And uh, you know, the two Jami regimes

1909
02:30:13,959 --> 02:30:17,239
started doing things, you know, like only conducting official business

1910
02:30:17,360 --> 02:30:20,239
in the Western alphabet. Okay, Serbs used to really and

1911
02:30:20,319 --> 02:30:22,879
this isn't a small thing, Okay, Like even if you

1912
02:30:22,920 --> 02:30:27,079
speak the same common language, you know, even even in dialect,

1913
02:30:27,120 --> 02:30:30,840
that's pretty similar. If suddenly, if suddenly you go outside

1914
02:30:30,920 --> 02:30:34,440
and like, you know, the garments not connucting business and

1915
02:30:34,479 --> 02:30:37,639
an alphabet you can read, they're gonna feel pretty fucking marginalized,

1916
02:30:38,479 --> 02:30:42,680
you know. And even beyond that, it like symbolically it

1917
02:30:43,959 --> 02:30:48,079
it it made the Serbs feel, I'm just profoundly disrespected.

1918
02:30:49,120 --> 02:30:51,479
But when you consider that an act of war was

1919
02:30:51,559 --> 02:30:57,319
on you know, the UH, the Slovenes as well as UH,

1920
02:30:58,399 --> 02:31:00,319
as well as both the Bosnian craws us in the

1921
02:31:00,360 --> 02:31:02,879
Bosnia acts. You know, the Bosnian Moslims who in the

1922
02:31:02,959 --> 02:31:05,200
next episode. Will we'll get into their story a bit

1923
02:31:05,680 --> 02:31:08,719
if if that's agreeable. You know, they were they were

1924
02:31:08,760 --> 02:31:11,239
looking around themselves saying like, there's there's there's there's an

1925
02:31:11,239 --> 02:31:15,360
ethnic war on. You know, this isn't hypothetical anymore. There's

1926
02:31:15,399 --> 02:31:18,040
a shooting war going on between ethnic secession, this and

1927
02:31:18,079 --> 02:31:20,239
the us LAV Army, which at least at the general

1928
02:31:20,360 --> 02:31:25,200
officer level is majoritarian serve. And Tujaman now was saying

1929
02:31:25,280 --> 02:31:29,680
that Croatia is a state exclusively the Croatian people, the

1930
02:31:29,760 --> 02:31:34,639
only democracy that's valid. And Tujiman did run a democracy.

1931
02:31:35,000 --> 02:31:39,639
There were contested elections, that's and arguable. However, as a

1932
02:31:39,760 --> 02:31:45,399
matter of constitutional mandate, you know, the new infendent Croatia

1933
02:31:45,520 --> 02:31:48,840
was exclusively Croatian, you know, and if you didn't identify

1934
02:31:48,920 --> 02:31:52,040
that way, you better start otherwise, you know, you're not

1935
02:31:52,239 --> 02:31:57,159
one of us. And they jump from that in the

1936
02:31:58,280 --> 02:32:01,079
wake of a Ross and Creed which has actually already

1937
02:32:01,159 --> 02:32:05,120
jumped off. I'lbeit in a different theater, but still, you know,

1938
02:32:05,399 --> 02:32:10,719
local to where you live, you're gonna realize that you

1939
02:32:10,760 --> 02:32:13,000
can be very able to find yourself ethnically cleansed. And

1940
02:32:13,239 --> 02:32:15,559
the guys putting the bandit at you could be guys

1941
02:32:15,600 --> 02:32:18,399
who you were totally at peace with, you know, a

1942
02:32:18,520 --> 02:32:20,280
year ago or a month ago or a day ago,

1943
02:32:20,559 --> 02:32:24,520
you know, and people think that's not possible, like even

1944
02:32:24,559 --> 02:32:27,280
in America. Obviously I'm not comparing the two situations, but

1945
02:32:28,600 --> 02:32:32,840
when the Floyd bullshit jumped off, that's right before I

1946
02:32:32,879 --> 02:32:35,680
got off probation, like right before I got back on

1947
02:32:35,680 --> 02:32:38,200
the internet, and I was like, I was living in

1948
02:32:38,280 --> 02:32:41,200
this like ghetto YMCA that was like eighty percent black,

1949
02:32:42,440 --> 02:32:45,879
and I was like, okay with those guys, but I realized,

1950
02:32:45,920 --> 02:32:48,000
like at the worst of it, I'm like, you know,

1951
02:32:48,399 --> 02:32:50,760
if things get like really bad, like these guys aren't

1952
02:32:50,760 --> 02:32:52,799
going to be my friend, you know, like, and it's

1953
02:32:53,479 --> 02:32:55,719
I think most people don't think that way in this country.

1954
02:32:55,920 --> 02:32:58,079
And I mean I'm a minority here. I mean, thankuly

1955
02:32:58,120 --> 02:33:00,360
not in my town, but I mean this palm like

1956
02:33:00,399 --> 02:33:03,680
a minority of one. But I mean, so this idea

1957
02:33:03,760 --> 02:33:05,959
that oh, those people just went crazy, like your neighbors

1958
02:33:05,959 --> 02:33:08,799
wouldn't fucking whack you. Yeah they would. Yeah. I mean

1959
02:33:08,840 --> 02:33:11,360
like even here, let alone in a place things that

1960
02:33:11,479 --> 02:33:14,520
bad enough, you know. I'm not saying people should be

1961
02:33:14,600 --> 02:33:18,159
paranoid or something or you know, order mac and cheese

1962
02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:21,000
buckets from Alex Jones and you know, pretend that the

1963
02:33:21,120 --> 02:33:24,040
fucking apocalypse is coming. But this idea that you know,

1964
02:33:24,159 --> 02:33:26,399
politics can't turn on you because oh we there was

1965
02:33:26,440 --> 02:33:28,520
some kind of concord with my neighbors and they like

1966
02:33:28,639 --> 02:33:31,520
me like that's all bits are often and and and

1967
02:33:31,879 --> 02:33:36,280
a rossen Krieger or whatever equivalent is. You know, So

1968
02:33:36,399 --> 02:33:45,159
that's that's basically that's basically what the perception was. And

1969
02:33:45,239 --> 02:33:47,559
you go Slavia like a lot of the satellite states.

1970
02:33:48,040 --> 02:33:50,440
You know. One of the reasons why East Berlin was

1971
02:33:50,639 --> 02:33:53,680
so important to the Warsaw Pact. It wasn't just because

1972
02:33:53,719 --> 02:33:56,280
that was, you know, the westernmost frontier of the communist world.

1973
02:33:57,000 --> 02:34:00,479
It was because of the Communists, especially because of their

1974
02:34:00,600 --> 02:34:05,680
pretensions about you know, the industrial proletariat and the degree

1975
02:34:05,719 --> 02:34:10,000
to which they relied kind of upon these intellectual university

1976
02:34:10,079 --> 02:34:14,680
types to kind of facilitate the program. You know, they

1977
02:34:14,920 --> 02:34:18,719
they really it's like the countryside like didn't exist to them,

1978
02:34:19,600 --> 02:34:21,760
you know, and even people like too Juman, even though

1979
02:34:22,319 --> 02:34:25,760
in Yugoslavia, I don't believe, I don't believe Titoism was

1980
02:34:25,799 --> 02:34:30,200
ever adoptionary kind of Marxist Leninism, but it definitely the

1981
02:34:30,280 --> 02:34:33,680
political culture definitely was similar in terms of blind spots

1982
02:34:33,719 --> 02:34:36,200
and these guys. It's like even in the small country,

1983
02:34:37,280 --> 02:34:40,360
you know, it's like it's like the countryside you know

1984
02:34:40,479 --> 02:34:44,200
where three you know, six indreo thousand Serbs live, you know,

1985
02:34:44,760 --> 02:34:48,520
who view life and the ethnic situation the same way

1986
02:34:48,559 --> 02:34:50,879
they did in nineteen forty one. It's like this didn't

1987
02:34:50,920 --> 02:34:53,319
exist because like, oh, here in Zagreb, you know, we

1988
02:34:53,600 --> 02:34:56,040
were all the same and our served neighbors, you know

1989
02:34:56,079 --> 02:34:57,920
them gon a funny customs to go to the wrong church,

1990
02:34:58,000 --> 02:35:00,600
but they can learn to be Croatian ha ha, Like

1991
02:35:00,680 --> 02:35:05,479
there really is something to that, and you know that

1992
02:35:05,719 --> 02:35:15,000
that really can't be overstated, you know, the uh so

1993
02:35:15,159 --> 02:35:24,159
it was basically in Canean the canon and basically what

1994
02:35:24,280 --> 02:35:30,239
became the secessionist crane uh Serb Republic. This is where

1995
02:35:30,360 --> 02:35:32,239
this is where the crowd say, actually could not afford

1996
02:35:32,399 --> 02:35:38,479
going to be some kind of iridescent Serbian movement or

1997
02:35:38,520 --> 02:35:42,799
some kind of mobilized Chitnik response to what Zagreb was doing.

1998
02:35:43,159 --> 02:35:45,200
That's the last place they can afford this to happen.

1999
02:35:45,360 --> 02:35:48,000
And it's absolutely where it did happen. And there's also

2000
02:35:48,040 --> 02:35:51,239
going to be the toughest Serbs live the creation that's

2001
02:35:51,239 --> 02:35:58,760
where they lived, you know. The uh So, in the

2002
02:35:58,840 --> 02:36:02,559
first month at two Jamond's election, and again I emphasized

2003
02:36:02,600 --> 02:36:05,799
that Tujman was elected, people are gonna say whatever they

2004
02:36:05,840 --> 02:36:09,040
you know, it's kind of like people have become less

2005
02:36:09,079 --> 02:36:14,680
friendly to Croatia, the Croatia of history in academic treat medisine.

2006
02:36:14,719 --> 02:36:17,360
Know now that we're like thirty years out and you know,

2007
02:36:17,399 --> 02:36:21,040
they're they're increasingly casting to Jaman is so I'm going

2008
02:36:21,079 --> 02:36:23,840
to dictator. I mean, the Croatian system of this day

2009
02:36:24,000 --> 02:36:27,680
is a strongly presidential system. But tou Jaman was elected

2010
02:36:27,760 --> 02:36:31,159
president and a normal election. You know, you can't you

2011
02:36:31,239 --> 02:36:34,159
can't just say you can't claim you know that like

2012
02:36:34,280 --> 02:36:36,399
Russia is not a democracy. I mean Croatia is a

2013
02:36:36,479 --> 02:36:39,760
democratic is any other country on Earth? Okay? And it

2014
02:36:39,920 --> 02:36:45,600
was in nineteen ninety one as it is today, you know.

2015
02:36:45,840 --> 02:36:49,920
And uh in the lead up to tu Jemon's election,

2016
02:36:51,000 --> 02:36:54,639
again it was its academic university friends, but not only

2017
02:36:54,719 --> 02:37:01,520
ran his campaign and sort of integrated his platform and

2018
02:37:01,879 --> 02:37:05,600
his optics into a modern media apparatus at a kind

2019
02:37:05,719 --> 02:37:10,280
that you know existed in the West. But these are

2020
02:37:10,280 --> 02:37:13,079
the guys who are advising him on policy also, you know,

2021
02:37:13,120 --> 02:37:15,600
and what he needed, I mean, frankly, he needed the

2022
02:37:15,680 --> 02:37:18,920
defectors from the usav National Army who knew the situation

2023
02:37:19,159 --> 02:37:21,799
and the military apparatus as it stood then, not twenty

2024
02:37:21,920 --> 02:37:26,959
years ago. You know, he needed he needed guys who

2025
02:37:27,040 --> 02:37:29,559
could tell him what the situation was on the ground,

2026
02:37:31,239 --> 02:37:35,920
you know, in the countryside where you know, when war came.

2027
02:37:36,000 --> 02:37:40,079
I mean, that's not only worth decided, but that's that's

2028
02:37:40,120 --> 02:37:42,360
what Croage would have to capture in order to remain

2029
02:37:42,440 --> 02:37:58,760
viable as a state. And uh the uh. There was

2030
02:37:58,799 --> 02:38:07,040
also two the local cadres that facilitated Tujeman's ascendancy. In

2031
02:38:07,159 --> 02:38:13,040
contrast to the people who constitute his cabinet. A lot

2032
02:38:13,120 --> 02:38:18,079
of these guys were probably what would be viewed under

2033
02:38:18,120 --> 02:38:21,840
normal conditions as extreme. You know. There were guys who

2034
02:38:21,959 --> 02:38:24,399
for years or for decades in some cases that they

2035
02:38:24,399 --> 02:38:28,040
were middle aged. There were guys who'd basically been like

2036
02:38:28,159 --> 02:38:33,159
carrying the torch of of crawd nationalism, you know, and

2037
02:38:33,239 --> 02:38:37,239
biding their time until the Titos regime could be torn down.

2038
02:38:38,040 --> 02:38:40,760
These guys had a basic antipathy to serbs like that

2039
02:38:41,000 --> 02:38:46,239
that can't be denied. You know, such a ground organization

2040
02:38:48,559 --> 02:38:53,920
are basically guys who hate serves anyway, It doesn't matter what,

2041
02:38:55,120 --> 02:38:58,120
It doesn't matter what your control group is saying. It

2042
02:38:58,159 --> 02:39:01,319
doesn't matter what Tujman, you know, playing mellow academic is

2043
02:39:02,000 --> 02:39:08,120
talking about a conciliatory posture between populations. You know, I mean,

2044
02:39:08,200 --> 02:39:14,520
it's not it's not it's not something, it's not something

2045
02:39:14,559 --> 02:39:23,600
that's that's gonna resolve in anything but a violent separation. Now.

2046
02:39:23,719 --> 02:39:27,920
I I mean again, like nobody's in augur and I think,

2047
02:39:28,319 --> 02:39:32,360
I think key political figures, even people who had a

2048
02:39:32,399 --> 02:39:36,840
better understanding, remember realistic understanding of the situation than perhaps

2049
02:39:36,879 --> 02:39:39,760
Chujiman himself did, they couldn't have foreseen the extent of

2050
02:39:39,799 --> 02:39:43,159
the differences, and like the degree of the division and

2051
02:39:43,799 --> 02:39:46,440
the kind of hostility just beneath the surface, like coming

2052
02:39:46,479 --> 02:39:53,040
from both sides. And when Tujman won the nineteen ninety election,

2053
02:39:54,040 --> 02:39:57,040
what he should have done, regardless of what he intended

2054
02:39:57,239 --> 02:40:00,520
in terms of you know, making the city apparatus, you know,

2055
02:40:00,879 --> 02:40:05,719
truly like a truly national, democratically exclusively crowd apparatus, Like

2056
02:40:05,799 --> 02:40:09,559
he absolutely should not have done anything provocative until it

2057
02:40:09,639 --> 02:40:12,360
was clear where the cards were gonna fall and in

2058
02:40:12,479 --> 02:40:15,639
terms of secession and what the response in Belgrade was

2059
02:40:15,680 --> 02:40:17,799
gonna be. But at the same time too, there's a

2060
02:40:17,840 --> 02:40:23,559
twenty twenty hindsight, and even even in a relatively unfree country,

2061
02:40:23,559 --> 02:40:26,280
which Creatia was not. Again, but even under conditions where

2062
02:40:27,159 --> 02:40:30,600
an executive doesn't have to abide some sort of direct

2063
02:40:31,120 --> 02:40:34,559
ballot mandate, I mean, every every chief executive is bound

2064
02:40:34,639 --> 02:40:39,559
by the tenor of the of a opinion in the

2065
02:40:39,639 --> 02:40:44,799
body politic, you know, So, I mean I Tujuman was

2066
02:40:44,840 --> 02:40:46,879
in part be kind of carried on a current of

2067
02:40:49,120 --> 02:40:57,840
of of zeitgeist that probably was irrepressible. And there's also

2068
02:40:57,959 --> 02:41:01,879
I mean, there's always there's always something of uh, I

2069
02:41:01,959 --> 02:41:03,959
mean you as you know, because of where you live

2070
02:41:04,040 --> 02:41:09,680
now when compared to the locale of your birth and upbringing,

2071
02:41:10,000 --> 02:41:11,920
there's always some kind of disdain that the city has

2072
02:41:11,959 --> 02:41:14,440
for the country. Like all these people they're they're just

2073
02:41:14,559 --> 02:41:17,559
simple fucking people. Like they they're passive, they're going to

2074
02:41:17,600 --> 02:41:19,680
tolerate whatever we kind of put on them. Like that's

2075
02:41:19,760 --> 02:41:25,360
never the case, you know, and particularly not when there's

2076
02:41:26,399 --> 02:41:32,120
a tradition of partisanship that breaks down rigidly on ethnic lines.

2077
02:41:32,159 --> 02:41:38,680
I mean, like there wasn't Croatia. But you know, again,

2078
02:41:38,920 --> 02:41:40,959
a lot of this I think is out of a

2079
02:41:41,000 --> 02:41:43,280
Hegelian A lot of this is out of man's hands,

2080
02:41:46,520 --> 02:41:54,200
you know. And it's also the uh, the one thing

2081
02:41:54,239 --> 02:41:56,959
people did say at the time. And you know, Tito

2082
02:41:57,680 --> 02:42:02,920
himself was a Croat and he successfully suppressed Serb fraud

2083
02:42:03,040 --> 02:42:06,120
enemity during the totality of his rule. But I mean,

2084
02:42:07,520 --> 02:42:09,520
I think that's misguided too, man. I mean, one of

2085
02:42:09,520 --> 02:42:13,200
the things Tito he drives his mandate not from the

2086
02:42:13,280 --> 02:42:15,920
fact that cross and Serbs suddenly decided they love one another.

2087
02:42:16,000 --> 02:42:18,959
It's because the genius and Tito is he found a

2088
02:42:19,040 --> 02:42:21,559
way to keep both uncle saying man the Soviets out,

2089
02:42:22,239 --> 02:42:27,719
you know. And I mean that even the most even

2090
02:42:27,760 --> 02:42:36,799
the most kind of sectarian minded, ethnically chauvinistic minded Prome

2091
02:42:36,959 --> 02:42:43,120
Serb or Bosniak would realize that, you know. And within

2092
02:42:43,200 --> 02:42:45,719
this paradigm, you know, we stand together, or we at

2093
02:42:45,799 --> 02:42:49,440
least tolerate the situation as it is, or or or

2094
02:42:49,600 --> 02:42:51,799
or we all die, you know. I know, I don't

2095
02:42:51,840 --> 02:42:56,319
think that's entirely fair, you know. And there was other

2096
02:42:56,399 --> 02:43:02,000
things too, I mean, the this was documented. It wasn't

2097
02:43:02,040 --> 02:43:04,520
just probably probably in it from Belgrade, like upon the

2098
02:43:04,559 --> 02:43:07,600
ascendancy of upon two mins of elections, there was like

2099
02:43:07,639 --> 02:43:11,079
a massed emotion and termination to serves from from high

2100
02:43:11,120 --> 02:43:22,040
and intermediate government positions, you know, literary Craat, literary Croatian.

2101
02:43:22,680 --> 02:43:26,319
It had to be spoken in administrative positions of officialdom.

2102
02:43:26,600 --> 02:43:28,600
It wasn't just the Western alphabet had to be used

2103
02:43:28,639 --> 02:43:32,079
by everybody, but you were basically prohibited from speaking with

2104
02:43:32,159 --> 02:43:35,319
a Serbian accent. I mean that that's stuff and stuff

2105
02:43:35,360 --> 02:43:36,959
like that as a flex you know, I mean, it

2106
02:43:37,040 --> 02:43:48,959
doesn't there there's no other way to characterize it. And

2107
02:43:49,079 --> 02:43:59,000
the the failed conflict resolution model again, I mean, frankly,

2108
02:43:59,159 --> 02:44:05,680
uh however misguided in terms of the assumptions people held

2109
02:44:07,520 --> 02:44:10,079
in nineteen ninety one about the potentiality of a truly

2110
02:44:10,920 --> 02:44:14,559
global collective security. At least, thank god it was that

2111
02:44:14,799 --> 02:44:20,760
coterie at Department of State and not this current crop

2112
02:44:20,879 --> 02:44:25,120
of INSANE'SUS and out and out you know, mental subnormals.

2113
02:44:25,760 --> 02:44:28,000
I mean, when I can't even imagine that would play out.

2114
02:44:28,239 --> 02:44:33,559
But the the big believe it or not, the big

2115
02:44:33,719 --> 02:44:37,239
question was on the U and the U and General

2116
02:44:37,239 --> 02:44:41,479
Assembly and Security Council, like is this an international conflict

2117
02:44:43,120 --> 02:44:48,120
or is this a civil war? And that significance was key, okay,

2118
02:44:48,520 --> 02:44:54,440
because the United Nations, misguided as it may have been,

2119
02:44:55,840 --> 02:44:59,000
you know, philosophically to suggest that such a thing could

2120
02:44:59,040 --> 02:45:03,719
be viable. The Charter was written with an eye for restraint,

2121
02:45:03,879 --> 02:45:08,520
in part because you know, obviously Stalin's representatives had to

2122
02:45:08,559 --> 02:45:12,000
be placated and ironically, you know, as Yaki pointed out

2123
02:45:12,040 --> 02:45:14,040
again and again, I mean that actually had the effect

2124
02:45:14,120 --> 02:45:20,159
of imposing restraint upon Washington dominating the world and facilitating

2125
02:45:20,159 --> 02:45:22,680
as social engineering regime or the officer is a collective security.

2126
02:45:23,559 --> 02:45:30,719
But the UN General Assembly had no they had they

2127
02:45:30,719 --> 02:45:32,920
had no grounds to vote a resolution on a civil

2128
02:45:32,959 --> 02:45:37,440
war as regards you know, sanctioning that the party combatants

2129
02:45:38,040 --> 02:45:40,680
or directly or the UN Security counts let no grounds

2130
02:45:40,680 --> 02:45:43,920
to intervene, you know, unless there was an international dimension

2131
02:45:43,959 --> 02:45:48,760
to the conflict. You know, it would be suggested by people.

2132
02:45:49,040 --> 02:45:50,520
One of the reasons why in the era of everybody

2133
02:45:50,559 --> 02:45:53,440
loved to bandy genocide and accused people who didn't like

2134
02:45:53,520 --> 02:45:58,520
of committing it. This is arguably the Genocide Convention superseded

2135
02:45:59,719 --> 02:46:05,520
the WIN Charter as a Djiurie grounds for intervention if

2136
02:46:05,520 --> 02:46:11,520
one accepts international law paradigms as legitimate. But obviously, UH

2137
02:46:11,719 --> 02:46:16,360
in nineteen ninety one it wasn't credible to talk that way.

2138
02:46:16,479 --> 02:46:19,680
I mean, it wasn't particularly in subsequent years. But you

2139
02:46:19,760 --> 02:46:23,200
can't levy. You can't levy in an accusation of genocide

2140
02:46:23,399 --> 02:46:25,840
within like once the anside of hostilities, like it's that

2141
02:46:26,120 --> 02:46:32,680
obviously be a propaganda ployd but you know Belgrade, which

2142
02:46:32,719 --> 02:46:36,840
to Belgrade at the time it was and really until

2143
02:46:38,440 --> 02:46:46,360
the conclusion of hostilities, the UH, the Serbians identified as

2144
02:46:47,000 --> 02:46:49,520
the Union of you you know, the Yuoslavian Union of

2145
02:46:49,559 --> 02:46:55,079
Serbia and Montenegro. You know, they never claimed like, oh,

2146
02:46:55,159 --> 02:46:57,520
we are Serbia where you know, we're creating, you know,

2147
02:46:57,600 --> 02:47:01,879
like an ethno national state of Serbians, mirroring Tujman. They

2148
02:47:01,959 --> 02:47:05,120
claimed Yugoslavia is you know where the Yugoslavian government and

2149
02:47:05,200 --> 02:47:08,280
secession is against the law. These people are engaged in.

2150
02:47:09,600 --> 02:47:12,920
They're they're waging war on on the sovereign government of Yugoslavia,

2151
02:47:13,639 --> 02:47:17,959
you know, which is UH, which is UH, which is

2152
02:47:18,000 --> 02:47:21,239
both illegal and as well as an internal affair. You know,

2153
02:47:24,000 --> 02:47:31,040
now it's key the UH until the end The official

2154
02:47:31,079 --> 02:47:33,559
position at Belgrade was that this is a civil war,

2155
02:47:34,520 --> 02:47:38,760
you know, and Yugoslavia never ceased to exist, you know,

2156
02:47:39,000 --> 02:47:42,639
and the people are claiming that it's a dead letter

2157
02:47:42,680 --> 02:47:46,840
in the Yugoslavia's could put our our fascists, who have,

2158
02:47:47,159 --> 02:47:50,799
you know, a racialized view of of of high politics

2159
02:47:52,159 --> 02:47:56,799
like over dishonest. That may have been depending your perspective,

2160
02:47:57,000 --> 02:48:00,959
I mean it, it was it, you know. Bea never succeeded,

2161
02:48:00,959 --> 02:48:03,520
and Servia never claimed that the US Slabbian constitution was

2162
02:48:03,559 --> 02:48:07,440
no avoid and that we're reconstituting as a Serb republic.

2163
02:48:07,600 --> 02:48:11,319
Criina did constitute itself as the Republic of the Republic

2164
02:48:11,399 --> 02:48:14,559
of Serbia. But you know, this is this is important.

2165
02:48:14,600 --> 02:48:17,719
It's not just legal eese. It had real war and

2166
02:48:17,799 --> 02:48:26,000
peace impactfulness. But it's also the i mean, the key

2167
02:48:26,159 --> 02:48:29,280
the key shortcoming of the United Nations and executive terms.

2168
02:48:29,319 --> 02:48:35,000
I'm a sorry from the fact, however much philosophically these

2169
02:48:35,079 --> 02:48:40,239
things aren't viable. I mean, what what what what? What?

2170
02:48:40,360 --> 02:48:41,920
What are you and Blue is gonna do? Are they

2171
02:48:41,959 --> 02:48:45,479
gonna Are they gonna occupy I think occupy Bosnian assault

2172
02:48:45,479 --> 02:48:48,000
the Yugoslav army with combined arms, I mean no one's

2173
02:48:48,000 --> 02:48:54,040
ever been able to explicate how this works. And even

2174
02:48:54,079 --> 02:48:57,760
in situations like in Lebanon after eighty two, or the

2175
02:48:57,840 --> 02:49:01,719
United Nations deployees you know what, the United Nations deployees

2176
02:49:02,639 --> 02:49:05,639
permissively because all party combat and just allow it to deploy,

2177
02:49:06,000 --> 02:49:08,159
you know, I mean, it's not you know, you can't

2178
02:49:08,159 --> 02:49:14,000
speak of international law when it's when categorically it can't

2179
02:49:14,040 --> 02:49:17,639
be compulsory. So it's sort of paralysis set it in.

2180
02:49:17,760 --> 02:49:22,079
But it's also there was a broader problem that we

2181
02:49:22,200 --> 02:49:26,479
touched on in the first episode. If the UN to

2182
02:49:26,520 --> 02:49:29,879
come out and said this is an international conflict just

2183
02:49:30,000 --> 02:49:34,680
in absolute terms, it's not a civil war, you know,

2184
02:49:34,799 --> 02:49:38,520
that would have at this time there was still a

2185
02:49:38,600 --> 02:49:44,760
truly conciliatory posture towards the Soviet Union, which was about

2186
02:49:44,799 --> 02:49:50,680
to dissolve, albeit but saying suddenly, this is Croatia ors

2187
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:52,879
a Serbia with Bosnia caught in the middle, when the

2188
02:49:52,920 --> 02:49:56,559
Bosniaks kind of just trying to survive, It's like, well,

2189
02:49:59,120 --> 02:50:02,360
Cole already a me recognized the independent state of Croatia.

2190
02:50:03,159 --> 02:50:06,920
You know, you'd essentially be sowing the seeds of a

2191
02:50:08,479 --> 02:50:12,200
wider ethnic conflict between Germany and Russia, like each backing

2192
02:50:12,239 --> 02:50:19,680
their client regime and a sort of a zero sum

2193
02:50:20,159 --> 02:50:23,840
paradigm developing. I think that was underway anyway. But again,

2194
02:50:24,280 --> 02:50:26,399
you've got to put yourself in the year nineteen ninety one.

2195
02:50:27,239 --> 02:50:31,040
You know, this wasn't this wasn't accepted thinking. The idea

2196
02:50:31,360 --> 02:50:33,760
was that this is sort of a blip on the

2197
02:50:33,879 --> 02:50:40,200
path to you know, global clicktive security arrangement. People are

2198
02:50:40,239 --> 02:50:44,760
still seriously talking about the Bush Baker model of we're gonna,

2199
02:50:44,959 --> 02:50:47,440
we're gonna totally the Soviet Union is gonna totally disarm

2200
02:50:48,280 --> 02:50:51,959
its strategic nuclear forces and draw down it's conventional force

2201
02:50:52,079 --> 02:50:54,399
divine or levels, and like we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna,

2202
02:50:54,639 --> 02:50:57,159
we're gonna with draw from Germany, and like NATO basically

2203
02:50:57,200 --> 02:50:59,959
isn't gonna exist anymore. Like this was the way people think,

2204
02:51:00,600 --> 02:51:06,760
not just talking. So that's important to consider, you know.

2205
02:51:06,840 --> 02:51:14,159
And again the uh IF, I think some of the

2206
02:51:14,360 --> 02:51:18,399
uh I think some of what was alleged in terms

2207
02:51:18,440 --> 02:51:26,600
of ethnic cleansing and and mass rape, like organized like

2208
02:51:26,799 --> 02:51:30,719
sexual violence, some of that was overstated. Some of it

2209
02:51:30,920 --> 02:51:36,559
was not okay. And we're loving to use the term

2210
02:51:36,600 --> 02:51:39,120
war crimes because said dandy so much to the floating

2211
02:51:39,120 --> 02:51:44,040
signifier has become meaningless. But there is direct testimony that

2212
02:51:44,360 --> 02:51:49,440
I I from, you know, n c o s and

2213
02:51:49,799 --> 02:51:55,959
junior officers who were witnessed to these events and they

2214
02:51:55,959 --> 02:51:57,959
have no reason to lie about it and every reason

2215
02:51:58,040 --> 02:52:01,639
to deny it. And I find that test somebody persuaded them.

2216
02:52:01,680 --> 02:52:03,959
And these weren't guys to themselves who were under indictment,

2217
02:52:04,200 --> 02:52:06,959
you know. And I think anybody doesn't believe those kind

2218
02:52:07,000 --> 02:52:09,200
of things happen in a ross and creeze being naive,

2219
02:52:10,159 --> 02:52:11,959
and I think everybody agrees that that kind of stuff

2220
02:52:12,040 --> 02:52:15,360
is horrible. But again it's like what do you It's

2221
02:52:15,399 --> 02:52:18,120
never been clear with the people who claim that you

2222
02:52:18,280 --> 02:52:20,879
should have the quote done something, So like what do

2223
02:52:20,959 --> 02:52:23,280
you do? You know, you deploy the combined arms and

2224
02:52:23,319 --> 02:52:26,600
assault the USLAV armies, like now you're at war with Serbia,

2225
02:52:26,760 --> 02:52:30,959
Like I don't know, give us idea that somehow you

2226
02:52:31,000 --> 02:52:35,200
can enter a combay zone, like an active conflict zone,

2227
02:52:36,440 --> 02:52:38,920
you know, with combined arms and like be like the

2228
02:52:39,000 --> 02:52:41,719
police or something and people stop what they're doing. You know,

2229
02:52:41,840 --> 02:52:43,840
like you you just become a party combatant when you

2230
02:52:43,959 --> 02:52:47,040
do that, you know you're you're you're you're joining a

2231
02:52:47,120 --> 02:52:51,840
gunfight that you didn't have to, you know, and that's

2232
02:52:51,879 --> 02:52:56,760
basically it. You know, it doesn't there's not that, there's

2233
02:52:56,799 --> 02:53:02,799
not there's not there's not some equitable resolution because oh,

2234
02:53:02,920 --> 02:53:09,239
they represent the United Nations. You know, it's preposterous. Now,

2235
02:53:16,319 --> 02:53:26,520
there was a claim Bosnia Herzegovina, which I think everybody

2236
02:53:26,559 --> 02:53:31,840
will agree was on the receiving end of the worst

2237
02:53:32,200 --> 02:53:44,159
excesses by all by all party combatants. Under Article twenty

2238
02:53:44,280 --> 02:53:51,479
five of the UN Charter, member states can vote to

2239
02:53:51,639 --> 02:53:57,479
intervene in a conflict zone where to not intervene would

2240
02:53:57,479 --> 02:54:00,239
be inconsistent with you know, like the fundamental protection human

2241
02:54:00,319 --> 02:54:03,079
rights and things of this sort. The language is ambiguous,

2242
02:54:04,440 --> 02:54:08,319
But the fact of the situation in Bosnia, where arguably

2243
02:54:08,520 --> 02:54:15,520
there was no majoritarian ethnos and even if you disagreed

2244
02:54:15,760 --> 02:54:22,559
with the idea that you know, the Yugoslavian, the Balkan,

2245
02:54:22,600 --> 02:54:26,120
the Third Broken War was an international conflict. Obviously whatever

2246
02:54:26,200 --> 02:54:29,000
government had could be said to exist in Vazio Scovina

2247
02:54:29,000 --> 02:54:35,879
had totally broken down. That would have been the best

2248
02:54:36,040 --> 02:54:40,959
case if you were gonna rely upon United Nations legal

2249
02:54:41,079 --> 02:54:44,840
rationales to intervene. But again like what what would that

2250
02:54:45,040 --> 02:54:47,399
force have been made up of? You you're gonna send

2251
02:54:47,520 --> 02:54:49,000
like the Buddhist far in there is you got like

2252
02:54:49,040 --> 02:54:51,079
a German army now marching in under the Office of

2253
02:54:51,079 --> 02:54:52,840
the UN saying oh, well we're here, you know, to

2254
02:54:52,920 --> 02:54:55,440
represent all nations. You're gonna you know, the Russians a

2255
02:54:55,479 --> 02:55:00,479
piece of that. You know, again, like the degree to

2256
02:55:00,559 --> 02:55:05,520
which real politique emergent earnest but of a start that

2257
02:55:05,639 --> 02:55:08,799
was somewhat more complicated than during the Cold War, just

2258
02:55:08,879 --> 02:55:11,879
in terms of that kind of conflict diets potentially that

2259
02:55:11,920 --> 02:55:14,479
we're emerging like that can't be overstated too. I mean,

2260
02:55:14,559 --> 02:55:16,840
so then it's some of you're left with, Like even

2261
02:55:16,879 --> 02:55:20,239
if the political will is there, even if there's some

2262
02:55:20,360 --> 02:55:27,799
sort of operational roadmap two resolve or you know, to

2263
02:55:27,920 --> 02:55:30,399
enforce the cease fire, like who do you deploy? You're

2264
02:55:30,399 --> 02:55:31,879
gonna get a bunch of You're gonna get a bunch

2265
02:55:31,920 --> 02:55:34,799
of like third world like like dealisters from like Ecuador

2266
02:55:36,079 --> 02:55:40,399
or to you know, to police Bosnia. I mean that's

2267
02:55:42,239 --> 02:55:47,520
on some level. You know, there was kind of a

2268
02:55:47,639 --> 02:55:54,399
hard lesson driven home about what a foolish move it

2269
02:55:54,680 --> 02:55:56,799
was to destroy Europe and kind of like rob the

2270
02:55:57,200 --> 02:56:01,200
it's constituent states a sovereignty because something like this happens,

2271
02:56:01,920 --> 02:56:04,639
like you need hasperg Empire interview. You know, you needed

2272
02:56:04,719 --> 02:56:07,239
Germany intervene, or you needed Germany and a Russia to

2273
02:56:07,319 --> 02:56:12,079
intervene and kind of decide among themselves. What's fear of influences?

2274
02:56:13,440 --> 02:56:15,520
You know, people can say all they want, like, well,

2275
02:56:15,600 --> 02:56:17,559
that doesn't matter if we're talking about the rule of law.

2276
02:56:17,639 --> 02:56:21,000
It absolutely doesn't matter, you know, because like the human

2277
02:56:21,079 --> 02:56:24,479
dimension always matters, and we're talking about human affairs. So

2278
02:56:26,360 --> 02:56:29,479
it was this kind of paralysis that just dragged on.

2279
02:56:30,239 --> 02:56:32,959
And Lawrence Egelberger, I'm actually more sympathetic too than a

2280
02:56:33,000 --> 02:56:35,639
lot of people. And I'm more simple to him as

2281
02:56:35,639 --> 02:56:38,280
a man. I mean he's dead now, but and as well,

2282
02:56:38,319 --> 02:56:39,879
I'm more sympathetic to him than a lot of the

2283
02:56:40,159 --> 02:56:43,520
hoy PELOI say nasty things about him, not unlike the Kissinger.

2284
02:56:43,639 --> 02:56:50,239
But he was under Secretary of State for a time

2285
02:56:51,399 --> 02:56:56,559
in the Bush forty one administration. He said immediately the

2286
02:56:56,600 --> 02:56:59,959
honesset of hostilities. Look, you've got to let this conflicts.

2287
02:57:00,079 --> 02:57:03,840
I will punch itself out, because if you intervene, you're

2288
02:57:03,840 --> 02:57:06,319
just gonna upset the balance. They're gonna drag out hostilities,

2289
02:57:07,120 --> 02:57:09,639
you know, and there isn't a solution basically, you know,

2290
02:57:09,799 --> 02:57:13,520
the the new Croatia and the New Serbia and whatever

2291
02:57:13,559 --> 02:57:15,319
the fate of Bosnia is, it's going to be decided

2292
02:57:16,600 --> 02:57:21,799
on the battlefield. And obviously he was you know, raked

2293
02:57:21,840 --> 02:57:23,479
from the cold and media like, oh, how dare you

2294
02:57:23,600 --> 02:57:27,200
say this, You're encouraging mass reef and genocide. I mean no, Actually,

2295
02:57:28,200 --> 02:57:31,639
exactly what Egoberger said like ended up happening in uh

2296
02:57:33,559 --> 02:57:42,399
N five. America intervened uh the Facilitati operations storm was

2297
02:57:42,440 --> 02:57:48,639
is the Croatian liberation of the Crimea, which you know

2298
02:57:50,879 --> 02:57:55,399
was the belated victory in the Homeland War for Croatia.

2299
02:57:58,719 --> 02:58:01,200
But that was a that was only the that was

2300
02:58:01,280 --> 02:58:07,000
only the that was America facilitated that by use of

2301
02:58:07,079 --> 02:58:11,520
a PMC outfit called m PRI, which was incorporated essentially

2302
02:58:11,600 --> 02:58:14,639
for that purpose, you know, for the for an operation

2303
02:58:14,760 --> 02:58:18,440
in Croatia, which is very interesting and in the final

2304
02:58:18,479 --> 02:58:25,040
episode we'll get into that. But basically, you know, for

2305
02:58:25,120 --> 02:58:29,760
all the talk about Wilberger was saying was was horrifically callous.

2306
02:58:29,840 --> 02:58:33,760
I mean that what it came down to was what

2307
02:58:33,920 --> 02:58:39,600
what resolved the conflict? The comics was deafly what he said,

2308
02:58:40,479 --> 02:58:45,479
you know, the party combats exhausted their ability to wage

2309
02:58:45,520 --> 02:58:52,360
war and UH battlefield battlefield victory and crina albeit with

2310
02:58:54,040 --> 02:58:57,559
you know, American assistance is what resolved for all time,

2311
02:58:58,159 --> 02:59:08,399
the the disputed or the contested UH objective that was crime.

2312
02:59:11,399 --> 02:59:15,959
I hope, hope people will back off of that I'm

2313
02:59:15,959 --> 02:59:18,159
saying that I hate Serbs, what I'm saying bad things

2314
02:59:18,200 --> 02:59:23,360
about them, or that I I've got some conceptual bias

2315
02:59:23,440 --> 02:59:26,760
and favor of Croatia. We should talk a little bit

2316
02:59:26,760 --> 02:59:27,680
about Slogani on the walls.

2317
02:59:30,479 --> 02:59:33,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a lot of people's lifetimes.

2318
02:59:35,680 --> 02:59:39,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I understand why if I was a Serbian

2319
02:59:40,600 --> 02:59:42,920
and I was in America or the UK, like I

2320
02:59:43,079 --> 02:59:47,559
feel very much like a population designated for hostility. You know,

2321
02:59:48,000 --> 02:59:54,159
I understand that completely, Okay, but I don't think people

2322
02:59:56,239 --> 02:59:57,559
One of the one of the reasons I focus so

2323
02:59:57,639 --> 03:00:02,840
much on the Third Right is because is the international

2324
03:00:02,959 --> 03:00:06,280
system and the entire sort of conceptual horizon that's been

2325
03:00:07,120 --> 03:00:12,360
crafted around World War Two. You've got to deal with

2326
03:00:12,399 --> 03:00:14,959
the Third Reich as sort of like the primary like

2327
03:00:15,159 --> 03:00:21,440
agent like in that narrative. Okay, So I'm not just

2328
03:00:21,520 --> 03:00:25,559
like fixated on these things at a smaller scale if

2329
03:00:25,600 --> 03:00:29,600
you're talking about if you're talking about the Yugoslavian wars

2330
03:00:30,600 --> 03:00:34,600
or what or what you know, the the Third Balkan

2331
03:00:34,719 --> 03:00:37,680
War at least the ninety one ninety five phase that

2332
03:00:37,879 --> 03:00:41,639
led to the creation of an independent Croatia. Like you've

2333
03:00:41,680 --> 03:00:44,319
got to deal with the Croatian political culture and what

2334
03:00:44,920 --> 03:00:49,159
and basically you know what the West view of Croatia

2335
03:00:49,360 --> 03:00:52,079
was and what tu Jaman was doing, That's what was

2336
03:00:52,159 --> 03:00:56,040
the dispositive variable. Okay, So like I begin with discussing

2337
03:00:56,079 --> 03:01:01,440
their Croatian situation. Also because CROs or are like German

2338
03:01:01,520 --> 03:01:04,840
adjacent and thus like Western adjacent, I frankly know more

2339
03:01:04,879 --> 03:01:10,559
about them than I do Serbians. But in my defense, again,

2340
03:01:12,120 --> 03:01:16,559
what was happening in Zagreb, and uh, it wasn't the

2341
03:01:16,680 --> 03:01:19,559
sole approximate cause of the conflict, but it was it

2342
03:01:19,639 --> 03:01:25,719
was the essential cause. Okay. The what Croatia did decided

2343
03:01:25,799 --> 03:01:29,840
the course of the war and the ultimately became the

2344
03:01:30,079 --> 03:01:34,200
political resolution. Like where like when the shooting stopped, you know,

2345
03:01:34,319 --> 03:01:38,000
the frontiers were established and accepted. It wasn't what Slovenian

2346
03:01:38,079 --> 03:01:40,760
or Macedonia was doing. It wasn't what the Bosniaks were doing.

2347
03:01:41,399 --> 03:01:45,479
Like those things had an impact. But again, like that's why, so,

2348
03:01:46,639 --> 03:01:49,719
I mean, I would have dealt with a Serbian perspective anyway,

2349
03:01:49,920 --> 03:01:55,520
but I thought it was especially imperative to do so

2350
03:01:55,719 --> 03:02:04,079
for for that reason. But Melosovich himself, I mean again,

2351
03:02:04,159 --> 03:02:10,559
he was He was a career communistep arratchik. He rose

2352
03:02:10,639 --> 03:02:17,079
to a general secretary positionary equivalent around nineteen eighty seven,

2353
03:02:17,239 --> 03:02:21,159
and actually the late Reagan administration looked at him as

2354
03:02:21,200 --> 03:02:23,040
their guy, like he was going to be like this

2355
03:02:23,120 --> 03:02:25,920
big liberalizer like he was. Basically he was supposed to

2356
03:02:25,959 --> 03:02:30,360
be like the Yugoslavian garbage show off. Okay, that's one

2357
03:02:30,360 --> 03:02:33,239
of the ways he got swept into power, was able

2358
03:02:33,280 --> 03:02:36,040
to consolidate his authority the way that he did, you know,

2359
03:02:36,200 --> 03:02:40,280
Like so this this kind of this exupposed facto rationalization,

2360
03:02:42,000 --> 03:02:46,479
you know that really began in Earnest in ninety one

2361
03:02:46,520 --> 03:02:50,440
and kind of just when it became totally irrational impunitive

2362
03:02:50,479 --> 03:02:53,799
during the Clinton regime. That Melosovich is like this madman

2363
03:02:53,920 --> 03:02:57,120
like chetnik, like there's completely at odds with reality and history,

2364
03:02:58,120 --> 03:03:00,600
Like the face he he he was this big like

2365
03:03:00,719 --> 03:03:03,399
liberal moderate. That's how he enjoyed the kind of patronage

2366
03:03:03,440 --> 03:03:10,799
that he did it. Uh And honestly, you know, Melissa

2367
03:03:10,840 --> 03:03:14,879
Benches fall from grace and power within his own country.

2368
03:03:16,520 --> 03:03:24,520
Kastunisha was elected president on October fifth, two thousand and

2369
03:03:25,360 --> 03:03:29,079
part of the big the big reason why Kristunika or Kostunisha,

2370
03:03:29,760 --> 03:03:33,360
if you're give me, if I'm booksuring the pronunciation, one

2371
03:03:33,360 --> 03:03:36,399
of the big reasons why he was able to break

2372
03:03:36,479 --> 03:03:39,399
through is because he was a Serb nationalist and Melosovich.

2373
03:03:39,680 --> 03:03:42,840
The big criticism Melosavich within Serbia was he turned his

2374
03:03:42,920 --> 03:03:45,280
back on the on the Serbian refugees. He didn't care

2375
03:03:45,280 --> 03:03:48,200
about our people. You know, he didn't fight hard enough,

2376
03:03:48,440 --> 03:03:50,399
you know, for the for the for the coast of

2377
03:03:50,479 --> 03:03:53,680
our Serbs. You know, like he he wasn't this big chetnik,

2378
03:03:54,079 --> 03:03:59,079
you know, like he was basically pragmatic. And this claim

2379
03:03:59,200 --> 03:04:01,719
that you know, most of the most of the grossest

2380
03:04:01,760 --> 03:04:06,239
excesses wherever one falls in their sympathy or background or whatever,

2381
03:04:06,680 --> 03:04:09,159
I don't think I would disagree that the worst excess

2382
03:04:09,280 --> 03:04:13,280
is carried out by all party. Combats took place in Bosnia, Okay,

2383
03:04:13,920 --> 03:04:17,799
and the idea that from Belgrade Melosevitch was somehow directing

2384
03:04:18,000 --> 03:04:20,840
like the Bosnian Serbs to do his bidding. Like this

2385
03:04:21,040 --> 03:04:23,639
is not I mean, that's not the way command authority

2386
03:04:23,760 --> 03:04:29,120
works in a modern state. But it's also like the

2387
03:04:29,159 --> 03:04:32,319
Bosnian Stirs might as well have been in a different country. Okay,

2388
03:04:32,479 --> 03:04:35,440
Like I'm not saying that, you know, the the affinity

2389
03:04:35,959 --> 03:04:38,520
that their co ethnics had for them was misplaced. I'm

2390
03:04:38,520 --> 03:04:40,479
not saying that at all, Like it was not misplaced,

2391
03:04:40,959 --> 03:04:42,760
But the point is it was almost it was a

2392
03:04:42,840 --> 03:04:48,639
totally it was a totally different socio political situation, you know,

2393
03:04:48,799 --> 03:04:54,200
like it'd be it's it'd be like saying like Jefferson

2394
03:04:54,319 --> 03:04:58,079
Davis was like it was ordering buddy Billy Anderson to

2395
03:04:59,000 --> 03:05:01,760
do things. You It's like that sounds asidine, but the

2396
03:05:01,840 --> 03:05:05,000
klan that I just raised is acidine. And people accepted

2397
03:05:05,079 --> 03:05:07,719
this is oh most of it is this a bad guy.

2398
03:05:08,239 --> 03:05:10,479
And like again I think I think sometimes that's like,

2399
03:05:10,680 --> 03:05:15,920
you know, the propaganda being distilled down into the most

2400
03:05:16,000 --> 03:05:21,440
kind of idiots caricature of reality. But it's also you

2401
03:05:21,520 --> 03:05:26,639
know the problem with assigning legalists legalisms and parent legalism.

2402
03:05:26,840 --> 03:05:31,719
Parent legalist paradigms and legalisms. The high politics, as was

2403
03:05:31,760 --> 03:05:37,319
done at Nuremberg, is it creates these perverse narratives where they're, oh,

2404
03:05:37,360 --> 03:05:41,239
there's there's there's command authorities who are bad actors, you know,

2405
03:05:41,559 --> 03:05:45,639
and they're the approximate cause of conflict, and everybody within

2406
03:05:45,719 --> 03:05:48,239
that chain of command is accountable to this bad actor.

2407
03:05:48,360 --> 03:05:54,680
Like this is not reality. You know. The uh I

2408
03:05:54,760 --> 03:05:58,479
guarantee you that some of the most hardened chet knicks

2409
03:05:59,000 --> 03:06:03,719
in uh Crina and in Bosnia and probably never even

2410
03:06:03,840 --> 03:06:06,200
heard most of it speak in their lives, like even

2411
03:06:06,239 --> 03:06:08,920
on the radio, you know, like he had nothing to

2412
03:06:09,000 --> 03:06:11,559
do with their conceptual horizon other than he was like

2413
03:06:11,639 --> 03:06:15,319
this remote like boss who in del Reid who Yeah,

2414
03:06:15,360 --> 03:06:17,440
we like that he's Serbian. But other than that, you know,

2415
03:06:17,639 --> 03:06:25,079
it's it's ridiculous, you know. And it's also too. I mean, basically,

2416
03:06:26,319 --> 03:06:29,479
if you look at the modern Serbian state under Melosovich

2417
03:06:30,280 --> 03:06:32,399
and now, and you look at the modern Croatian state,

2418
03:06:33,680 --> 03:06:38,479
I know too, Jaman and now, like basically everything else

2419
03:06:38,520 --> 03:06:40,520
suggested to be this kind of like a horrible and

2420
03:06:40,639 --> 03:06:46,799
democratic feature of Serbia or what they called Yugoslavia after

2421
03:06:46,879 --> 03:06:55,399
the secession of Croatia and UH Slovenia. I mean those

2422
03:06:55,440 --> 03:07:00,239
are basically features common to Croatia. You know, there's there's

2423
03:07:00,239 --> 03:07:03,559
what we would consider it basically chauvinus, UH, you know

2424
03:07:03,840 --> 03:07:09,639
nationalism that you know, characterized the party politics. There's a

2425
03:07:09,680 --> 03:07:15,479
basic discrount, distrust of pluralism and UH casting UH candidates

2426
03:07:15,520 --> 03:07:18,440
who talked about like, you know, a multi ethnic uh

2427
03:07:19,079 --> 03:07:24,319
Croatia where we're reviewed as traders, you know, UH, bad

2428
03:07:24,399 --> 03:07:28,079
relations with the West, you know, and and and admittedly

2429
03:07:28,120 --> 03:07:29,479
they had more we're to do with what the West

2430
03:07:29,639 --> 03:07:33,079
was doing than what Serbian Croatia were doing, but you know,

2431
03:07:33,319 --> 03:07:38,200
consistent economic stagnation, you know, reliance on subsidies, and you

2432
03:07:38,280 --> 03:07:40,600
know a handful of kind of key like national industries.

2433
03:07:41,159 --> 03:07:43,239
I mean, this is like everything they say about Serbia,

2434
03:07:43,520 --> 03:07:46,159
like being dysfunctional. It's like a mirror image of the

2435
03:07:46,239 --> 03:07:49,440
reality in Croatia. So I mean there's that too, like

2436
03:07:49,559 --> 03:07:51,040
I and I mean, I'm not I'm not saying to

2437
03:07:51,079 --> 03:07:53,680
be punitive. I got I think the Cross deserves about

2438
03:07:53,719 --> 03:07:57,319
great people, and I respect the fact that they've resisted,

2439
03:07:57,959 --> 03:08:01,319
you know, the the social engine regime astauantcy as they have.

2440
03:08:01,920 --> 03:08:04,440
But you can't you can't cast Serbian this light and say, oh,

2441
03:08:04,479 --> 03:08:07,079
but Croatia is not like that, because they're basically mirrors

2442
03:08:07,120 --> 03:08:11,959
of each other, like structurally, you know. And and frankly,

2443
03:08:12,159 --> 03:08:16,040
tu Jman Uh, he was a lot different than Melosovich,

2444
03:08:17,000 --> 03:08:18,760
like in terms of his character and in terms of

2445
03:08:19,239 --> 03:08:21,600
like his background, like we talked about in the first episode,

2446
03:08:22,399 --> 03:08:24,879
but he in terms of he was no more autocratic

2447
03:08:24,959 --> 03:08:28,280
than Melosovich was, Like arguably, I mean Tujman once the

2448
03:08:28,360 --> 03:08:32,319
war kicked off. I yes, Tujon was elected. Yes there

2449
03:08:32,319 --> 03:08:35,479
were fair elections in Croatia, but I don't think he

2450
03:08:35,520 --> 03:08:37,600
could have been removed like during this you know, the

2451
03:08:37,920 --> 03:08:41,079
State Act at war. Okay. Arguably he was like more

2452
03:08:41,959 --> 03:08:44,760
like like Molosa, which was more susceptible you know, to

2453
03:08:45,000 --> 03:08:47,879
like removal by due process than Tujman was. So there's

2454
03:08:48,000 --> 03:08:50,639
I mean, there's that too, Like you can't that this

2455
03:08:50,719 --> 03:08:54,719
attempt like other like the Serbians is is bullshit, okay.

2456
03:08:54,840 --> 03:08:58,719
And I mean, I I had thought that I conveyed

2457
03:08:58,760 --> 03:09:02,440
that clearly in our previous discussions, but because apparently I didn't,

2458
03:09:02,559 --> 03:09:06,000
I wanted our Serbian Orthodox friends to know that I

2459
03:09:06,479 --> 03:09:09,760
take that very seriously, and I'm I'm not disdaining them

2460
03:09:09,879 --> 03:09:17,360
or their considerations. But it's also too and the reason

2461
03:09:17,399 --> 03:09:19,799
why I'm Melosovich in his favor. One of the reasons

2462
03:09:19,879 --> 03:09:26,440
why he enjoyed the incumbentcated for thirteen years, you know,

2463
03:09:26,719 --> 03:09:30,719
like he did implement a market economy in a way

2464
03:09:30,760 --> 03:09:36,000
that didn't completely crash the the country, you know, unlike Yelson,

2465
03:09:36,079 --> 03:09:41,120
for example, he did tolerate multi party elections. I mean, admittedly,

2466
03:09:41,280 --> 03:09:45,719
like the political culture was exclusively you know, kind of

2467
03:09:45,799 --> 03:09:48,600
like Serb centric, but I mean again, that's appropriate. The

2468
03:09:48,719 --> 03:09:54,360
national democracy there was, there was an actual opposition, you know,

2469
03:09:54,760 --> 03:09:59,280
they did it media access. I mean, this wasn't like

2470
03:09:59,399 --> 03:10:01,239
all the kind of all the kind of pole stars

2471
03:10:02,680 --> 03:10:07,079
that these m g O types claim like constitute you know,

2472
03:10:07,239 --> 03:10:09,879
like a democratic state we approve of like he met

2473
03:10:09,920 --> 03:10:12,879
those Okay, I mean Serbia is a hell a lot

2474
03:10:12,920 --> 03:10:15,040
more free than israel Is, I'll tell you that much.

2475
03:10:15,520 --> 03:10:18,799
I mean, if that's you know, if that's any if

2476
03:10:18,920 --> 03:10:21,840
if that's the metric, you know, you can't you can't

2477
03:10:21,920 --> 03:10:24,959
claim that it was it was like Saddam's Iraq or

2478
03:10:25,040 --> 03:10:27,920
like it was this dictatorship or something, you know. I

2479
03:10:27,959 --> 03:10:31,399
mean it basically one of the reasons why again, like

2480
03:10:31,520 --> 03:10:35,840
Reagan's people and then Bushes people. Initially Melosmitch was their

2481
03:10:35,959 --> 03:10:39,239
guy is because he was basically doing he was basically

2482
03:10:39,319 --> 03:10:43,559
acting like a like a post communist, the like European

2483
03:10:43,680 --> 03:10:49,479
politician is supposed to act. You know. So this the

2484
03:10:49,600 --> 03:10:53,879
fact he was hailed into the Hague, you know, I think,

2485
03:10:54,079 --> 03:10:57,319
but you know, he he he died when he was

2486
03:10:57,520 --> 03:11:00,280
on trial, and I but I thought he had quoting

2487
03:11:00,360 --> 03:11:06,479
himself very honorably, you know. I like, well, and we'll

2488
03:11:06,479 --> 03:11:10,159
get into that in the in the book and episode.

2489
03:11:15,200 --> 03:11:20,920
I think, Uh, it's about all I got for to day.

2490
03:11:21,040 --> 03:11:23,479
Like frankly, I don't mean to be a I don't

2491
03:11:23,479 --> 03:11:27,760
mean to be a uh F A or p h

2492
03:11:27,879 --> 03:11:29,239
A G d O T. But I'm in a lot

2493
03:11:29,239 --> 03:11:34,840
of pain right now. Uh go ahead, I'm sorry, Yeah,

2494
03:11:34,920 --> 03:11:35,600
no problem at all.

2495
03:11:35,840 --> 03:11:38,079
Speaker 1: Just uh hit hit up whatever you want to promote

2496
03:11:38,120 --> 03:11:39,600
and uh yeah, we'll get out of here.

2497
03:11:40,600 --> 03:11:44,079
Speaker 2: No, that's great, Thank you, Pete. You can find me

2498
03:11:44,159 --> 03:11:48,559
on substack real Thomas seven seven seven substack dot com.

2499
03:11:50,239 --> 03:11:53,040
I'm having to report to annaly Pill Publishing. They're dear

2500
03:11:53,120 --> 03:11:55,440
friends of mine and they published some really incredible books

2501
03:11:55,559 --> 03:11:57,760
and I hope to publish with them in the future.

2502
03:12:00,200 --> 03:12:06,040
But uh, I'm participating in their UH in their UH

2503
03:12:06,719 --> 03:12:13,079
in their Creators program whereby if you UH, if you

2504
03:12:13,200 --> 03:12:17,319
enter my code when you order from Analog Press, like

2505
03:12:17,440 --> 03:12:19,520
regardless of size of the order, you get five percent off.

2506
03:12:21,799 --> 03:12:25,079
The code is lowercase three T H R E E

2507
03:12:25,639 --> 03:12:31,680
seven S c V E N number five. And not

2508
03:12:31,760 --> 03:12:33,760
only not only will you get five percent off, but

2509
03:12:33,879 --> 03:12:35,600
like I get a kickback from that too, as that

2510
03:12:35,719 --> 03:12:37,920
helps my brand. To just keep that in mind. You

2511
03:12:38,000 --> 03:12:40,040
can find out all the info on the substack. I

2512
03:12:40,159 --> 03:12:43,959
posted up a little piece about it. You can find

2513
03:12:44,000 --> 03:12:49,200
me on Twitter at real capital r E L R

2514
03:12:49,280 --> 03:12:52,280
E A L underscore number seven h O M A

2515
03:12:52,479 --> 03:12:55,040
S seven seven seven. You can always find me on

2516
03:12:55,120 --> 03:12:58,959
my website it's Thomas seven seven seven dot com. That's

2517
03:12:59,079 --> 03:13:01,959
number seven H one A S seven seven seven dot com.

2518
03:13:02,479 --> 03:13:06,000
You're find me on YouTube and Thomas TV number seven

2519
03:13:06,319 --> 03:13:09,879
H one A S TV. I'm uploading some like videos

2520
03:13:09,920 --> 03:13:12,239
I shoot just kind of like out and about and

2521
03:13:12,760 --> 03:13:14,680
with some of the people I talk to and things.

2522
03:13:14,879 --> 03:13:17,159
So that's gonna I'm hoping that's gonna pop a little

2523
03:13:17,159 --> 03:13:19,200
more as I upload more stuff. But that's what I

2524
03:13:19,280 --> 03:13:22,239
got all right until the next time. Thank you,