Speaker 1: I am pleased as Punch to check in with state
Speaker 1: Senator and gubernatorial candidate Barb Kirkmeyer. We are going to
Speaker 1: talk about something that has turned into.
Speaker 2: A huge problem.
Speaker 1: And Barb, first of all, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, it's great to be back on and
Speaker 3: thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about HB twenty four Dash ten thirty four.
Speaker 1: This was a bill that from the outside looking in,
Speaker 1: and you can tell me where I've got it right,
Speaker 1: where I've got it wrong, it looks like another well
Speaker 1: intentioned piece of legislation that has accidentally created a huge
Speaker 1: negative consequence. And that negative consequence for my listeners who
Speaker 1: don't know their bill numbers right off the top of
Speaker 1: the head, is that we've now seen multiple cases of
Speaker 1: people that have demonstrated a propensity to be violent being
Speaker 1: arrested and then being released because they are found unable
Speaker 1: to stand trial because of a competency issue. And this
Speaker 1: is now a huge problem. So Barb, let's start at
Speaker 1: the beginning. Where did this bill come from and were
Speaker 1: these problems ever discussed?
Speaker 2: Let's do start there.
Speaker 3: But first of all, let me just say this, I
Speaker 3: did vote for that bill, and I'm going to say why,
Speaker 3: but it is obvious you're right that it's got it
Speaker 3: needs to be fixed. There's it did create a huge problem.
Speaker 3: We thought we were solving another issue that had to
Speaker 3: do with the deal with the Constitution. But in this case,
Speaker 3: we need to fix this bill. And I very frankly
Speaker 3: believe that the governor should call for a special session,
Speaker 3: that we should fix it sooner rather than later. And
Speaker 3: I'm concerned that he won't want to do that. I
Speaker 3: know the remembers folks that had asked to have this
Speaker 3: s get fixed in the special session we had in AUGUSTA.
Speaker 3: Obviously it did not get on the call, but we
Speaker 3: need to get it fixed sooner rather than later, because
Speaker 3: you're right what happened was the bill, and we talked
Speaker 3: about this in our caucus as well. But this bill
Speaker 3: started actually with a task force who was putting together
Speaker 3: recommendations for what's called an introim commit so a committee
Speaker 3: that meets when we're not in session and they go
Speaker 3: through and have more time to really go in depth
Speaker 3: and look at bills and.
Speaker 2: See what's made it there.
Speaker 3: And so it came out of that infram committee and
Speaker 3: it was especially built as a necessary fix for a
Speaker 3: constitutional deficiency. In other words, way back, like I think
Speaker 3: it was nineteen seventy two, but back in the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court had made it very clear that individuals
Speaker 3: that are deemed incompetent simply cannot just be left in jail.
Speaker 2: It violates the Constitution.
Speaker 3: Do process in the constitution, And you know that's been out.
Speaker 2: There for a while.
Speaker 3: So we we passed this bill thinking that we were
Speaker 3: addressing the constitutional concerns, looking at the length of time,
Speaker 3: the reasonable amount of time that an individual could be
Speaker 3: staying in there. And quite honestly, when we talked about
Speaker 3: this billing and in our Republican caucus and when I
Speaker 3: mean we all voted for it on the floor in
Speaker 3: the Senate, you know, on third reading, we talked about
Speaker 3: that it was really they're either going to be in
Speaker 3: a correction facility or they're going to be in a
Speaker 3: mental institute institution, right, So it wasn't like they should
Speaker 3: be letting go or not, you know, getting back out.
Speaker 2: On the streets. So that's where we've got a problem.
Speaker 3: I've talked with, you know, a few district attorneys.
Speaker 2: I've talked with obviously, the sheriff.
Speaker 3: Of my sheriff of Well County, who rightly so is
Speaker 3: you know, ringing the alarm bell and thank you for
Speaker 3: doing that, And so, you know, we think we can
Speaker 3: come up with a fix. I've spoken with one of
Speaker 3: the prime sponsors and she's been working with the District
Speaker 3: Attorneys Association, the disability groups, victims groups, and others as well,
Speaker 3: and we've pledged to kind of try and come together
Speaker 3: to see if we can come up with a fix.
Speaker 3: But in the meantime, we really just need to have
Speaker 3: the governor call special session and then let's get the
Speaker 3: bill fixed. But that won't solve all the issue is
Speaker 3: part of the other problem. And I've talked about this
Speaker 3: in a couple of different places, but you know, it's
Speaker 3: one thing to try and address the constitutional concerns.
Speaker 2: Now, we need to.
Speaker 3: Fix this hole it's in this bill. Fix this flawed
Speaker 3: law that's letting people go.
Speaker 2: But the other problem is the next phase of this.
Speaker 3: And as I was talking to, like, for example, some
Speaker 3: of the district's attorneys like, is the institutions that we
Speaker 3: have in the state.
Speaker 2: We have about five hundred beds in the state.
Speaker 3: Four hundred of them are for those that are criminally
Speaker 3: Justice involved.
Speaker 2: The others are for civil of.
Speaker 3: People who are involved in civil cases, and it's for
Speaker 3: people who are either mentally ill or developmentally disabled. And
Speaker 3: so what has been going on in the courts is
Speaker 3: instead of the defense having the burden to say that
Speaker 3: they are not restorable, in other words, they're incompetent, it's
Speaker 3: been put on the prosecution to have to prove that
Speaker 3: they are not competent. So again, I think there's a
Speaker 3: fixer that we can come up with. But where do
Speaker 3: we put them? These beds are full. We've got anywhere
Speaker 3: from three hundred and sixty plus bed waiting list to
Speaker 3: get into these institutions.
Speaker 2: It's very expensive.
Speaker 3: And you know, in our budget situation, I know last
Speaker 3: year in the budget the Joint Budget Committee, we added
Speaker 3: additional dollars to this area. Quite frankly, not enough, not enough.
Speaker 3: We're going to have to prioritize this area, you know.
Speaker 3: And so I tell folks, you know, when you want
Speaker 3: to keep voting against the budget, you're also voting against
Speaker 3: things like this about you know, increasing bedspace. You're voting
Speaker 3: against the Department of Corrections, You're voting against judicial getting funding.
Speaker 3: It's like, we have to fund these things and we're
Speaker 3: going to have to find the money for it, and
Speaker 3: it's it'll be tough. I mean, from my perspective, it's
Speaker 3: a must have. It's not a pet project of any kind.
Speaker 3: This is a must have that we have to do.
Speaker 3: But we got to fix the first problem first, and
Speaker 3: that's fixing the flaw in the in the bill, in
Speaker 3: the law, and the governor needs to call special session.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the second part of this, because
Speaker 1: the first part seems like a no brainer, right.
Speaker 2: That I don't understand.
Speaker 1: I think so anyone could have any issue was saying
Speaker 1: we need to make sure the dangerous people are not
Speaker 1: getting released back onto the streets. It does seem to
Speaker 1: me that there's something wrong, and you sort of referenced it.
Speaker 1: There's something wrong with the way people are declared unable
Speaker 1: to stand trial or or not competent to stand trial.
Speaker 1: There seems to be something there that mechanism, because once
Speaker 1: someone is determined to be unable to stand trial because
Speaker 1: of competency, it seems like it's far too hard to
Speaker 1: get them to a point. Let and I'm going to
Speaker 1: use the example of Ephraim oh gosh, what's his last name?
Speaker 1: I can't remember his last name. The guy who was
Speaker 1: just Collins. It's from something even from something from d
Speaker 1: whatever it is, but just getting that guy, because that
Speaker 1: guy went on TV with CBS four and is like,
Speaker 1: I'm not even getting a chance to plead my case.
Speaker 1: And Sheriff Steve Reem said on my show that from
Speaker 1: his interactions, this guy does not meet the classic standard
Speaker 1: that most people would think of as someone like and
Speaker 1: I'm going to use Robert Deer, the guy who's been
Speaker 1: accused of shooting up the Planned parenthood in Colorado Springs.
Speaker 1: He's been incarcerated since twenty six teen, because he is
Speaker 1: completely detached from reality, right, Like I think most people
Speaker 1: think when you hear not competent to stand trial, you're
Speaker 1: thinking someone with serious mental illness instead of they just
Speaker 1: don't seem to understand that they're now in the judicial system,
Speaker 1: which the second case feels that way.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense, Yes, it does.
Speaker 3: So there's a difference between being you know, a mental
Speaker 3: illness and being able to be treatable. And then there's
Speaker 3: also the developmentally disabled, So someone with like a very
Speaker 3: low IQ, right, like, you know, I don't know what
Speaker 3: this individual in Wild County with our IQ is, but
Speaker 3: when I talked to the sheriff, it sounds like he's
Speaker 3: got a very low IQ and they're developmentally disabled, right,
Speaker 3: and so that's.
Speaker 2: That's the difference.
Speaker 3: But like I said, when I was talking with different
Speaker 3: district attorneys, their comment was, look, we need to kind
Speaker 3: of flip the burden here and habits where the presumption
Speaker 3: needs to be reversed that defendants should have to demonstrate
Speaker 3: competency or the defense should have to demonstrate compency rather
Speaker 3: than forcing prosecutors to prove incompetence. And that's causing an issue.
Speaker 3: And I think that's where we can fix the law.
Speaker 3: But the next question is then where do they go?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: You know, certainly if they're having a lesser crime, like
Speaker 3: if it was you know, shoplifting.
Speaker 2: Or a non violent but not just some left or.
Speaker 3: Lesser crime that's more of a misdemeanor type thing, you know,
Speaker 3: there are probably other suitable places for them to go
Speaker 3: to get resources and services, especially if it's mental illness.
Speaker 2: But if it is developmentally.
Speaker 3: Disabled and they just aren't capable of understanding, we're going
Speaker 3: to need to find a location for them. But we
Speaker 3: can't just be letting them out on the streets, especially
Speaker 3: if they are violent, you know, and have a very
Speaker 3: low IQ kind of thing. And that's what's going on here.
Speaker 3: So we're going to have to figure out how to increase.
Speaker 2: The number of beds.
Speaker 3: And you know that we have in these institutions and
Speaker 3: probably the ones either in Fort Logan are Pueblo. I mean,
Speaker 3: that's where we have our two institutions in the state
Speaker 3: of Colorado.
Speaker 2: And it's very expensive.
Speaker 3: And I will tell you right now we're under a
Speaker 3: consent to cree because of that waiting list we already have,
Speaker 3: so we're already paying out money to essentially stay out
Speaker 3: of compliance, which I don't like. And we've been trying
Speaker 3: to figure this out at the Joint Budget Committee. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, we don't have the we haven't
Speaker 3: been a well find the funding.
Speaker 2: We have a workforce shortage.
Speaker 3: I mean, we don't have people who want to work there,
Speaker 3: right and I wouldn't either, quite frankly.
Speaker 2: But so that's part of the other issue is trying
Speaker 2: to figure out especially after COVID.
Speaker 3: I mean, our issue got exasperated with COVID because of
Speaker 3: you know, people being furloughed and being left not at
Speaker 3: the state, not being furloughed at the state. But like
Speaker 3: you know, these types of medical and behavior health providers,
Speaker 3: you know, things just got moved around and got switched around,
Speaker 3: and now things have gotten a lot more expensive. It's
Speaker 3: more expensive to hire people we contract out with these beds,
Speaker 3: you know, to get the right workforce there. But it
Speaker 3: it is extremely difficult to do that. And that's the
Speaker 3: next step. And by no means trying to make any
Speaker 3: kind of excuse.
Speaker 2: We have got to fix this.
Speaker 3: We cannot let, you know, violent criminals just because they're
Speaker 3: developmentally disabled out on the streets.
Speaker 2: We've got to figure out where they go. And we
Speaker 2: also have to follow our constitution.
Speaker 1: Amen to that. Now, let me ask this question to
Speaker 1: the point that Colorado, and it's not just Colorado, okay.
Speaker 1: We know back in the you know, fifties, sixties, and seventies,
Speaker 1: of the nineteen hundreds. Back in the nineteen hundreds, as
Speaker 1: the kids today say, we had a big emptying out
Speaker 1: of mental institutions of all kinds, state, federal, everybody kind
Speaker 1: of said, oh, we've got all these new medications and
Speaker 1: we're going to just give people medications and they're going
Speaker 1: to be okay in the community. The reality is is
Speaker 1: that we have underinvested for decades, right, we have underinvested,
Speaker 1: and now we've got this situation, which is criminal situations,
Speaker 1: but we also have on the streets of our cities
Speaker 1: here in Colorado evidence of a significant population of people
Speaker 1: with severe mental illness. They are self medicated with.
Speaker 2: Drugs and alcohol.
Speaker 1: So we need to be having a conversation not just
Speaker 1: about the criminal element, but we need to be having
Speaker 1: a conversation about what are we going to do in
Speaker 1: a meaningful way to help people who are stuck in
Speaker 1: the throes of addiction have an opportunity to come out
Speaker 1: of that addiction and get help for that mental illness
Speaker 1: while also being protected in an environment that protects themselves
Speaker 1: and the general public.
Speaker 2: You're exactly right.
Speaker 3: And part of the issue is, and I've been having
Speaker 3: this struggle with this as well, is we created a
Speaker 3: behavior Health Administration, and this is where we were supposed
Speaker 3: to be combining things from all these departments and creating
Speaker 3: this new administration that was going to figure out this
Speaker 3: system of care and how do we get behavioral health.
Speaker 2: Services to folks.
Speaker 3: I quite frankly don't really know what our return on
Speaker 3: investment has been for the over billion of dollars that
Speaker 3: we have put into this administration, into this department, and
Speaker 3: I think there needs to be some discussions there about
Speaker 3: where are we really putting the funds and how do
Speaker 3: we fix how do we fix this issue? I mean,
Speaker 3: maybe we need to be pulling some of those funds
Speaker 3: over to assist with the issue with the beds that
Speaker 3: we have in our institutions where we have a lack
Speaker 3: of beds, I mean, because we do not we do
Speaker 3: not want to get into the situation that we were
Speaker 3: in with our juvenile detention facilities and beds, where we
Speaker 3: literally had a cap on the number of beds that
Speaker 3: we could have, and just this year we finally were
Speaker 3: able to get that cap increase because what was happening
Speaker 3: is we were to put someone into that situation, into
Speaker 3: that bed, we were letting someone else go.
Speaker 2: And we do not want to be in that situation either.
Speaker 3: So we are literally, quite literally going to have to
Speaker 3: sit down and get this figured out. Like I said,
Speaker 3: the easiest part, and I'm not going to say it's
Speaker 3: really easy, but the easiest part of this is fixing
Speaker 3: the law. The most difficult, difficult part is I don't
Speaker 3: even think it's finding the funding. I think it's finding
Speaker 3: the workforce to increase the number of beds that we
Speaker 3: have in our institutions so that we can get that
Speaker 3: wait list down. I know the woman who runs this office,
Speaker 3: she has worked for district attorneys. She understands what the
Speaker 3: situation is. And if we don't get it down, you know,
Speaker 3: quite frankly, we just get posed with another lawsuit, which
Speaker 3: doesn't do any good.
Speaker 2: We know what the problem is. We're trying to fix it.
Speaker 2: Another lawsuit just doesn't happen.
Speaker 3: But you know, sometimes you just can't get those acl
Speaker 3: you guys to suffer the loss. But you know, we've
Speaker 3: got to. We've just got to get under control, and
Speaker 3: we've got to. We will we can find the funding.
Speaker 3: I know we will go and work to find the
Speaker 3: funding because this is a must have, a must fund.
Speaker 3: It's that workforce shortage is what is scaring me. And
Speaker 3: I don't know where we find that well.
Speaker 1: I mean this is when when I had then candidate
Speaker 1: Mayor Mike Johnson now Mayor Mike Johnston on the show,
Speaker 1: and he was talking about creating all these micro communities
Speaker 1: and hotels and all of this stuff for homeless people.
Speaker 1: My number one question for him was who is going
Speaker 1: to work there? Where are you going to find the staff?
Speaker 1: Where are you going to find the trained staff? This
Speaker 1: is not exactly you can't just PLoP a new high
Speaker 1: school graduate into this position. These are people that have
Speaker 1: to be highly trained. They have to understand how to
Speaker 1: deal with mentally ill people that could be violent.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm with you on this.
Speaker 1: I think that this is a huge, huge issue and
Speaker 1: one that I fear, and I'm going to be honest,
Speaker 1: I fear that nothing significant is going to happen until
Speaker 1: someone's family member gets murdered or someone gets, you know,
Speaker 1: attacked on the streets by someone who should not have
Speaker 1: been out. We've already seen some high profile cases of this,
Speaker 1: but maybe the wrong people are being attacked maybe, you know.
Speaker 1: I don't wish that on anyone, to be clear, but
Speaker 1: I really worry that we're going to let this go
Speaker 1: and let this go and let this go, and someone's
Speaker 1: going to die because of it.
Speaker 3: Well, and I hope and pray that does not happen.
Speaker 3: And I know you don't want it to happen either.
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone does. And you're right, I think
Speaker 3: one of the other things, though, maybe one of the
Speaker 3: fixes that we can do in the law is when
Speaker 3: this was determined back again, I think I know it
Speaker 3: was back in the seventies that you can't just leave
Speaker 3: people sit in jail. There has to be a reasonable standard,
Speaker 3: a reasonable amount of time, So you can't just leave
Speaker 3: them there in a correctional facility, either in a county
Speaker 3: jail or in a state correctional facility indefinitely. But again,
Speaker 3: I think if one, if we go back and look
Speaker 3: at what the district attorneys are saying, where we you know,
Speaker 3: put the burden onto the defense that we presume people
Speaker 3: are restorable until the defense says no, this individual is not.
Speaker 2: That would help.
Speaker 3: If we've tried some other things with you know, ensuring
Speaker 3: that we can get legal guardians appointed. But we also
Speaker 3: started another program it's called the Bridges program, and I
Speaker 3: don't know how successful it is.
Speaker 2: We started in the last couple of.
Speaker 3: Years as well, but it's like a court appointed individual
Speaker 3: that would be on every case like this to ensure
Speaker 3: that these individuals are one getting the services that they
Speaker 3: need and getting place and that we find placements for it.
Speaker 3: But I think the other part of the law that
Speaker 3: maybe we need to look at and probably.
Speaker 2: Change is the amount of days.
Speaker 3: You know, the Supreme Court didn't say in their rulings
Speaker 3: back in the seventies that it had to be sixty
Speaker 3: days or ninety days or one hundred and you know,
Speaker 3: twenty days or anything of that nature. They just said
Speaker 3: it needs to be a reasonable time frame, and maybe
Speaker 3: we need to redefine what reasonable time frame is as well.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I am not an attorney.
Speaker 3: That's why I talked to the district attorneys a lot,
Speaker 3: and would talk to my county attorney a lot all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 2: But I think maybe that's.
Speaker 3: Another area where we can help fix this law and
Speaker 3: maybe start at least giving us a little bit more
Speaker 3: time to figure out how we find the funding and
Speaker 3: then where do we get the workforce from.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's part. It's going to increase the funding.
Speaker 3: And you know, again I'm not trying to shrink my
Speaker 3: responsibility here.
Speaker 2: We're going to have to go find it. That's just
Speaker 2: all there is to it.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm speaking with Senator Barb kirk State Senator Barb
Speaker 1: Kirkmeyer and given at real candidate. A lot of people
Speaker 1: on the tech signe are saying, how did you guys
Speaker 1: not see this problem coming.
Speaker 2: How when you passed.
Speaker 1: The bill, did nobody go, hey, we could let some
Speaker 1: dangerous people out of jailed. Was that never a consideration?
Speaker 3: I'm telling you in all the conversations I had, now,
Speaker 3: I was not in the Interim committee. I didn't you know,
Speaker 3: I didn't see all of the task force recommendations. I'm
Speaker 3: not on the Judiciary committee that I think this is.
Speaker 3: That's the committee that it went through.
Speaker 2: On the Senate side.
Speaker 3: I do know we had conversations about this in our
Speaker 3: Republican caucus, and that's that was not the discussion. It
Speaker 3: was like, we need to find what a reasonable timeframe is.
Speaker 3: We need to ensure that we are adhering to the Constitution,
Speaker 3: because again, if we're leaving these individuals, whether it's mental
Speaker 3: illness or developmentally disabled folks in our correctional facilities, it
Speaker 3: just keeps setting us up for more lawsuits and that's
Speaker 3: not solving the problem either.
Speaker 2: So no, we did not.
Speaker 3: I mean, at no point did I hear anybody have
Speaker 3: that kind of discussion.
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Speaker 3: It just means I'm telling you I was not a
Speaker 3: part of that conversation. And maybe it happened in committee.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I just know on the Senate floor
Speaker 3: it passed unanimously. So I'm thinking, you know, we're all
Speaker 3: thinking the same thing that we are putting in what
Speaker 3: we believe to be a necessary fixed for constitutional deficiency.
Speaker 3: But clearly the application of this law has clearly exasperated
Speaker 3: Colorado's public safety issues that we have. And you know,
Speaker 3: I'm just going to sit again. The governor needs to
Speaker 3: call a special session. This is not one of those
Speaker 3: things that can wait until January or February for us
Speaker 3: to go in and get in session and fix the law.
Speaker 2: I mean, my gosh, we are not back in session
Speaker 2: till the middle of January.
Speaker 3: It takes at least three days and then another few
Speaker 3: days to get things signed. I mean, at a minimum,
Speaker 3: we're talking February first, if you ask me.
Speaker 2: And I think that's way too long to wait.
Speaker 3: I know people don't like to have special sessions, but
Speaker 3: I think, too darn bad. Let's all get back to
Speaker 3: work and let's fix this flaw on the bill and
Speaker 3: at least fix the first step, and then let the JBC,
Speaker 3: along with whoever else wants to, let's go look at
Speaker 3: let's find that funding, and let's see what we can
Speaker 3: do with regard to the bed issue.
Speaker 1: All right, Senator Barb Kirkmeyer, I appreciate the time today
Speaker 1: and your willingness to just come on and say, look,
Speaker 1: you know, we've solved one problem while creating another one,
Speaker 1: which is kind of exactly what happened the worst problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is exactly what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean my friend Laura Carno, who has
Speaker 1: a book called Government Ruins Everything. I'm just saying in
Speaker 1: this case, maybe it. Barbara, a free fut your time today.
Speaker 1: We'll see again soon.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thanks for letting me on