WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:09.160 You know the quarter Berry. 2 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:25.000 Sois hi? 3 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:28.640 Everyone, Welcome to Zuga now in English. I know this 4 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:31.640 is not very common. We typically speak in Portuguese, but 5 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.840 we we couldn't waste a chance to speak with Iron Brook, 6 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:37.640 which is the guests of today. Thank you so much 7 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:38.159 for being. 8 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:39.960 Here, Thanks for having me and speaking English. 9 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:42.759 Appreciate It's an amazing pleasure to have you here. I 10 00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:45.520 know that you've been doing some events here in Portugal 11 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:50.600 in the last day. You left some today here I think, 12 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:55.640 how is it called Atlas? At Atlas Campus is helping 13 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:58.200 to make to put that together as well for some 14 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:02.000 For the the people that are listening at home, guys, 15 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:04.319 this is a new space, so pardon us if we 16 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:06.879 will have some like sound issues or image issues. It 17 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:08.640 will get better through time. It's the first time we 18 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.239 are doing the postcar podcast in this space. However, for 19 00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:15.120 the people at home that don't know you. So, Aaron 20 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.439 Brook is the shareman of n RN's institute, we'll talk 21 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:19.400 about what that means. 22 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:20.319 Who is rant? 23 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:23.480 Where is objectivism? Is the author of books like Free 24 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.640 Market Revolution, Equal is Unfair, which is also a concept 25 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.920 that will discuss today, and the leading advocate for capitalism 26 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:33.359 and objectivism. So thank you again for being here. It's 27 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:33.840 an honor. 28 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:35.200 How it's been a pleasure. 29 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:37.840 How it's been the visit so far in Portugal, It's good. 30 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.120 Everything's been good. It's a quick visit. I'm on a 31 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.680 European tour, so this is I don't know, the ninth 32 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:47.560 event I'm doing in ten days or something ridiculous like 33 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:50.680 that in nine different countries. But it's all good. 34 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:52.640 It takes stamina. Well done for that. 35 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:56.319 Yeah, I know it takes temina, because I'm not sure 36 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.319 I have it anymore. I used to do a lot better. 37 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.959 People here in Portugal might be wondering. Okay, tell me more. 38 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:06.920 I've never heard about this objectivism stuff. Who is n Rant? 39 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:09.319 So can you? Can you tell us? And let's start 40 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:11.680 with that, what is objectivism? Who is n Rant? 41 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.080 Sure? I mean? Ironland was an author and American author 42 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:21.400 who wrote in the middle of the twentieth century and 43 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:25.800 probably had a probably among the most important thinkers of 44 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:28.680 the twentieth century. I think she'll have a profound impact 45 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:33.439 on the future of mankind, certainly of the US and 46 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:37.479 in Europe. She's a best selling author. I think she 47 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.759 already had huge impact. I'd say on kind of the 48 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:45.599 generation that elected Margatacher and Ronald Reagan, and kind of 49 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:48.240 the move to the to the right that happened in 50 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:51.319 the nineteen eighties, or to the free market right that 51 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:55.159 happened in the nineteen eighties. She still sells an amazing 52 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:59.120 number of books, so she's still somebody who inspires people 53 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.439 all over the world. Her books have been translated into 54 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:06.199 pretty much every language, including Portuguese. And we were just 55 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:10.080 talking Portuguese in Brazil and Portuguese Portugal, because I guess 56 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.840 you guys don't read each other's translations, but like the. 57 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:17.919 English American stuff, you know, we like to keep it. 58 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:20.319 But it's a bit different. It's a bit different. The 59 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:23.159 differences in language are more extreme in terms of I'll 60 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:26.639 do construct phrases. Although we obviously understanding each other, we 61 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.879 don't like it both ways, so we just keep translating 62 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:33.439 again and again for Portuguese Portugal and Portuguese Brazil. 63 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:35.800 Yeah, so her books are translated pretty much into every 64 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:39.000 major language out there and a lot of minor languages. 65 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:43.560 I mean, she was born, She's got a fascinating life history. 66 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.919 She was born in nineteen oh five in Saint Petersburg, Russia, 67 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.039 and she kind of witnessed the Russian Revolution from her balcony. 68 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:54.840 I mean, it happened right there in Saint Petersburg. So 69 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.280 she lived under communism. She experienced what communism was like. 70 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:03.199 Her father, who was a pharmacist, owned a pharmacy that 71 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:05.520 was taken from them. The apartment was taking from them, 72 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:08.400 had to live with other families, and she, from a 73 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:11.400 very young age, had a kind of an individualistic spirit. 74 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:17.439 She was an independent thinker and she hated Communism from 75 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.040 day one. And it was obvious that if she stayed 76 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:24.040 in Russia she would not survive. They would kill her. 77 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:26.399 So she got out as soon as she could. There 78 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:29.879 was a small opening in the nineteen twenties where she 79 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.839 could leave and go do some research in the US 80 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:37.480 and come back, but she knew she would never come back. 81 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:40.040 Her family knew she would never come back. Made it 82 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:43.240 to the United States, got there, you know, a young 83 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.560 Russian woman with nothing, went to Hollywood because she wanted 84 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:52.600 to write for the movies. Ultimately got all kinds of jobs, 85 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:58.800 odds and ends jobs, and ultimately became a script writer 86 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:03.600 in Hollywood. She will plays her first novel is We 87 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:08.160 the Living, which is a very kind of autobiographical novel. 88 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:11.240 It's about a young woman growing up in Russia and 89 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:17.079 witnessing the revolution and dealing with that. Very powerful novel. 90 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:19.720 If you want to understand communism, read with the Living. 91 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:23.519 She wrote a small book called Anthem that was first 92 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:28.040 published in the UK, kind of a dystopian novel atte 93 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:32.639 very very small, quick read. And then she she wrote 94 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:35.480 a book called The fountain Head, which took her quite 95 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:37.959 a few years to write. She was It was published 96 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:41.519 in nineteen forty five, and she sent it out to 97 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:45.240 publish this and nobody wanted it, so twelve publishers rejected it, 98 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:50.199 and then the thirteenth thirteenth publisher took it and didn't 99 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:51.800 print a lot of copies because they didn't think it 100 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.639 would amount to much. But it became a best seller. 101 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:56.959 It became a kind of a word of mouth bestseller, 102 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:01.839 you know, to this day, tens of thousands of copies 103 00:06:01.959 --> 00:06:04.360 just in the United States, and then globally because it's 104 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:07.720 been translated. And then she started working on a magnus Opus, 105 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:11.480 which is Atla Shrugg, and she published that in nineteen 106 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:14.399 fifty seven. This time all the publishers wanted to publish 107 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:16.959 it because they'd seen what happened with The Fountainhead, and 108 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:20.360 it came out as an instant bestseller. It again still 109 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:23.600 sells hundreds of thousands, I think of copies all over 110 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:28.160 the world, and she became a real celebrity in the 111 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:33.000 United States. At that point, she started writing philosophy and 112 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:37.800 commentary on the culture. So she didn't write another novel, 113 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:40.120 but she wrote lots and lots of articles that were 114 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:44.959 then put into books Capitalism, non Known Ideal, the Virtue 115 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:49.279 of Selfishness, pretty controversial philosophy, Who needs it? These are 116 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:52.079 the kind of books she wrote about the very early 117 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:57.600 beginnings of the environmentalist movement and about the new Left 118 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:01.399 which was rising in the nineteen sixties, so she really 119 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:04.000 covered that. She talked about politics and everything that was 120 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.439 going on in the world. Really during that period. She 121 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:13.519 analyzed and covered given her unique philosophical perspective, and she 122 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.439 wrote some pretty philosophical books like Introduction to Objectivists of Pistemology, 123 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:22.000 and she landed up calling her philosophy kind of all 124 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.199 these ideas that she developed in the novels and then 125 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:30.240 that she developed in her nonfiction writing. She called that 126 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.879 the philosophy of objectivism. So that came together, and it 127 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.920 turned out given all her writings that she you know, 128 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:41.199 she had a position on metaphysics and epistemology, on ethics, 129 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.319 on politics, and on aesthetics. She's got a book called 130 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:49.279 the Romantic Manifesto, which is a theory of art that 131 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:52.639 she developed. So you know, I think she'll go down 132 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:57.720 as one of the great philosophers and certainly maybe the 133 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:00.000 most important thinker of the twentieth century. 134 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.720 All Right, and that's said, with all those amazing novels 135 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.160 and so on, I've read fountain Head and not Los Shrugged, 136 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:08.879 I've not. I've not read With the Living yet. 137 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:11.120 So you should. I think you'll enjoy it. I think 138 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:11.399 you will. 139 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:12.279 Oh will? I will? 140 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:12.720 Thanks. 141 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:17.120 So that said in a Nutshelle, how can you describe 142 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:19.120 to people that never heard about objectivism? 143 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:19.879 What is that? I mean? 144 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:22.279 People have heard the virtue of selfishness. 145 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:23.319 They are in. 146 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:26.800 Portugal, so they will scream far right if you say that. 147 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:29.399 So well, I don't know if I wish for the 148 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:32.519 far right thought the virtue selfishness. I don't think they do. 149 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:35.080 But in Portugal, and we can talk about that. Everything 150 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:35.679 they don't like. 151 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:38.080 Is the far exactly. In Portugal, everything that is not 152 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:42.240 like social democracy. Socialism type is a far right extremist. Well, 153 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:43.279 let's explain to people. 154 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:48.000 Is objectivism so subjectivism, I mean it's hard to do 155 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:51.399 because objectivism is philosophy. So it's many many, many books, 156 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:54.360 many many volumes could be written. But on kind of 157 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.440 on one foot the brief topic. You know, I believe 158 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.679 that reality is what it is. It's not what you 159 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:04.759 wish it to be. It's not what what somebody else 160 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:08.720 wishes to be. It it existence exists as a the 161 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.720 law of causality kind of Uh. And then we as 162 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:15.320 human beings have the tool to no reality. We know 163 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.600 reality through reason, through our senses and through our and 164 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:20.879 with the use of our mind integrating the information we 165 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:24.039 get from our senses. We don't know it from our emotions. 166 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:26.960 Our emotions are not tools of cognition. They don't teach 167 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:29.679 us about reality. They teach us about ourselves maybe, but 168 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:32.679 not about reality. And we don't. We don't learn truth 169 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:36.759 from revelation. Truth comes from reason, from from from observing 170 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:41.279 and integrating. Uh. And then you know, reason is a 171 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:45.320 faculty that only individuals have. There's no collective consciousness, there's 172 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:49.360 no collective thinking. Uh. And so individual is the unit 173 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:54.519 that is of importance, and uh the individual should, according 174 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:01.639 to objectivism, pursue his own interests, his own life, survive, thrive, flourish, 175 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:07.240 and ultimately happiness. So the goal of morality should be 176 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.120 to teach us how to live, how to live well, 177 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:12.679 how to flourish, how to thrive, how to be the 178 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:15.639 best human beings we can be. It's not to teach 179 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:20.559 us how to sacrifice and live for others, and it's 180 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:24.200 not to demand other sacrifice for us. It's to live 181 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:27.919 your life as an independent human being, using your reason, 182 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:30.840 your means of your tool to know the world as 183 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:36.080 your guide and then you know. So if such individuals 184 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:39.440 pursuing their own happiness, pursuing your own life, they want 185 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.960 to be basically left free, recognizing that the enemy of 186 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:48.120 reason and the enemy of thinking is force cousion. So 187 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:52.240 you want a political system that rejects that takes out 188 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:55.559 of society force and cosion. So you want a government 189 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:57.720 that has a monopoly over the use of force, but 190 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:01.399 only can only use it in retaliation, can only use 191 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:07.000 them to protect people from force inclusion. So she's against socialism, 192 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:11.440 she's against fascism for left, for right, she is she 193 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:14.879 is for capitalism, which he defined as the system where 194 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:18.200 the government's sole job is the protection and defense of 195 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:23.399 individual rights, where all property is owned privately, and where 196 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:29.200 there is a complete separation between state and economics. So 197 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:32.600 so pretty radical as a as a free marketer, as 198 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:34.759 the you know, but it's more than just a market. 199 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:37.720 It's the idea that rights much must be protected. That 200 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:38.720 is the role of government. 201 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:41.639 So you spoke about some concepts that some people might 202 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:45.879 think they're very subjective, like happiness, right, Happiness for me 203 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:48.320 can be can mean very different things than what it 204 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.919 means for you. Happiness for you might be doing a 205 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:54.759 very nice tour through Europe talking about and random objectivism. 206 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:57.919 To me, happiness is like staying with my family and 207 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.879 enjoy a nice a nice dinner them. So how can 208 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:07.240 that be the self interest joining force of the pursuits 209 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:11.159 of happiness. How such a subjective thing can can be 210 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:14.600 meddled and consistent with objectivism? 211 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.840 Then, So, first, I don't think it's subjectives, you know. 212 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:21.320 Subjective is a term, a philosophical term that really means 213 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:25.120 you know, whatever, whatever you feel like. Well, and I 214 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:28.519 think the pro the principles, the rules to achieving happiness 215 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.080 Happiness is not just something that you win, that you whim, 216 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:34.600 that just comes out of your own particular whims. It's 217 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:37.360 certainly personal. Each one of us is going to experience 218 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:40.399 happiness differently, in which can experience happiness from different things. 219 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:43.919 But even then there's a principle guiding it all. Happiness 220 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.679 comes from achieving your values, assuming those values are rational 221 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:53.600 and pro life. Right, If your values involved injecting heroin 222 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.320 and UH and being a sadamasochist, then you're not going 223 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:01.480 to achieve happiness by your values. Your values, well, you 224 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:05.000 destroy you, make you unhappy, and actually kill you. So 225 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:08.840 you have to have life affirming rational values. If you 226 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:11.039 have life affirming rational valuers, and they can be a lot, 227 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:14.159 it can be. I think everybody needs a career. I think, 228 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:16.039 you know, we can talk about that. But career is 229 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:17.720 where you get your self esteem, and I think self 230 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:22.879 esteem is necessary. But some people might emphasize more family, 231 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:25.679 some people might emphasize more travel, some people don't like 232 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:29.600 to travel. There are a lot of specifics that differ 233 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:34.600 from people, but I don't call them subjective. Hopefully, you know, 234 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.080 you can define what your values are and why their 235 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:42.159 values to you, you know, and in a rational way, 236 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:44.440 in a way that you can communicate, and I can 237 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:48.799 do the same for mine. So the formula for happiness 238 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.039 is to achieve your rational life affirming values, and to 239 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:57.000 constantly strive to improve, to constantly strive for something better, 240 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.200 whether it's within your career or whether it's within your family, 241 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:01.440 you know whatever. 242 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.720 Real what if myself interested just to maximize pleasure. 243 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:09.919 Well then you won't be happy. You'll land up being miserable. 244 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:16.919 The hedonists don't actually achieve. They achieve momentary pleasure, but 245 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.360 they don't actually achieve happiness. We are not a being 246 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:24.000 that is pure material. That is, we're not a being 247 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:30.000 that can only survive on a material a pleasure. Pleasure 248 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:32.000 is important. I'm all full pleasure. I love pleasure. I 249 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:34.960 think pleasure is great, and pleasure is a requirement for happiness, 250 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.159 but it's not enough. And people who dedicate themselves just 251 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.440 to having to partying and drinking and drugs or whatever, sex, whatever, 252 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:47.080 you know, they can have fun for a while, but 253 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.919 that doesn't add up to happiness. And that's another thing. 254 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.720 Happiness is not a momentary emotion. It's not like I'm 255 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:55.679 happy one minute and I'm not happy the other minute. 256 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:00.320 Happiness is an underlying state of being. It's some that 257 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.639 you carry with you for you actual real life. You 258 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:05.960 can get bad news, you can something really horrible can happen. 259 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.799 It makes you very, very, very sad, and yet fundamentally 260 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:14.679 you're still a happy person. So happiness is not something 261 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:16.679 that you switch on and off all the time. It's 262 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.440 something that once you attain it and you sustain it 263 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:23.679 is sustained as an underlying sense of a being. 264 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:27.240 So when you say self pursue your self interest and 265 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.159 your own happiness and so on. But at the same time, 266 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:34.320 there's judgment in terms not judgment in a bad sense, 267 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.080 but judgment in the sense of, obviously there are ways 268 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.559 to pursue your self interest that are better than others. 269 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:42.639 How do you explain that to people? A little bit 270 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.240 more little because some people say, oh, awesome, I can 271 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:47.440 pursue my self interest. I will just do what I 272 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:51.200 want and anybody can be good. Is there such a 273 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:54.639 thing as objective morality on the objectivist framework? 274 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.480 Absolutely, I mean reality is objective. So the standards of 275 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:01.279 your behavior, the prince supposed by which you behave, which 276 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:06.200 is what morality kind of articulates, are objective and they're 277 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.799 not dependent on you. They are uniform to the entire 278 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.000 human race. That is, these are principle that apply to everybody, 279 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.279 no matter where they are, no matter what their circumstances are. 280 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:20.200 That is, it's true for all human beings that the 281 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.440 way in which we survive, the way in which we thrive, 282 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:23.720 is by the use of our reason. 283 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.759 And can you give examples, like one of those universal 284 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:29.960 objective moral rules. 285 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:34.879 Live by reason, live by your mind, be rational. Be 286 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:41.039 rational is a moral principle. I know that's very outside 287 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:44.519 the norm of what people consider morality, but that's because 288 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:47.840 I think morality today is completely messed up, and it's 289 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:52.039 anti human and it's it's destructive. It's why we have 290 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.279 so many problems in the world, why we have so 291 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:57.960 many political problems, but also just personal problems. There's a 292 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.480 lot of people unhappy in the world. There's a lot 293 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.399 of poverty and death and destruction in the world, and 294 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:05.160 it comes from the fact that we have a screwed 295 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:10.400 up morality. So I think for two thousand plus years, 296 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:15.039 or really since the beginning of mankind, we've messed around 297 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:19.039 with morality, and we've dedicated morality to thinking about how 298 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.200 to sacrifice the other people, and how to place the 299 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:23.240 well being of other people in front of everything else. 300 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:25.400 And we haven't really thought about how to make our 301 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:28.839 own lives good. And this is the revolution I think 302 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:32.720 that iron Ran brings. So then number one, if you 303 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:35.079 had to boil down all of Ironrand's thinking into one 304 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:41.039 principle guidance to life, think, use your mind. I mean, 305 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.960 the reality is that almost any time you get into 306 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.440 trouble and you go, oh God, that that was a mistake, 307 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:52.039 it's almost always the case that you followed your emotions 308 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.440 and you didn't think it through beforehand. I mean it's 309 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:59.039 almost never that you go, I thought about it too much, right, 310 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.599 It's I didn't think it through. I didn't really look 311 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.599 at all the evidence. You know, you you get involved 312 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.440 with a with a woman who's you know, ultimately not 313 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.000 so good for you. Yeah, you let your let your 314 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.160 libido dictate what you do, rather than think about about 315 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:16.880 what the consequences of what your what your actual actions 316 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:19.519 on what her character might or might not be. So 317 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.319 thinking is the essence is that the core of human 318 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.759 morality what guides us to flourishing, it will makes every 319 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.279 value possible. I mean, none of us are born if 320 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:33.720 you look at just basic human values. None of us 321 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.480 are born with the gene to hunt. I mean, I 322 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.200 know some men think they do, but they don't have it. Right. 323 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.200 You know, if you go up against a bison, you 324 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:48.680 have to run down a big animal. Right. We're not fast, 325 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.480 we're not strong, no clause, no fangs. Right, So you're 326 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:54.400 not going to be successful. So you need tools. You 327 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:58.200 need weapons, you need you need strategy, you need teamwork. 328 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:00.920 All of that requirets thinking. All of that requition. We 329 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.480 don't have a gene to create bows and rows, bows 330 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:07.400 and ls. Some genius invented it. We probably burnt him 331 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.079 at the steak and uh and and and then people 332 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:14.599 copied it with some genius had they invented. So, you know, 333 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.480 the mind is the source of all human values. 334 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:19.920 So what do you decay? For example, there's a bunch 335 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:24.000 of a bunch of people that would say, I'm thinking 336 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:28.039 clearly and very precisely. That's why I reached a conclusion 337 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.000 that socialism is the best You even had the expression 338 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.519 of scientific socialism, as you know, right, So they really 339 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.960 wanted to prove the point that socialism was the best 340 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.480 rational economic system that you could have. How do you 341 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.119 work with those people in terms of rational with better reasoning, 342 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:44.920 what is our. 343 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:49.400 Sure So you could you could make an excuse for 344 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:54.079 maybe car marks that he didn't know better. Maybe right, 345 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.759 Mars is full of contradictions and full of full of 346 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.240 garbage and his writing, but you can make it. Use 347 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:05.480 that one hundred and fifty years ago, two hundred years ago, Okay, 348 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:11.559 it seemed scientific, although it wasn't today with the complete 349 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:15.680 failures of socialism. I mean, what people who are socialists 350 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.920 today do is they take a knife and they stick 351 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.359 it in both of their eyes and they blind themselves 352 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:26.559 to reality. The one thing socialists don't do is use 353 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.720 their mind. The one thing socialists don't do is think, 354 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:33.880 because if they use their mind, if they use their eyes, 355 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:35.960 if they use their mind, they would see the complete 356 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:38.839 another failure of socialism. And if they use their mind, 357 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:41.599 they would see that socialism cannot work because it's a 358 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.720 rotten theory. Marx is wrong and pretty much everything he 359 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:50.759 said why he's still popular is bizarre. Right, emotional, it's emotional, 360 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:55.400 it's driven by emotion, it's driven by morality, right, by 361 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:58.559 a rotten morality. 362 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.440 That's one thing that I was about to say, which 363 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.119 is if I go to the streets right now in 364 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.160 Portugal and I ask someone about their most important let's say, 365 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:09.960 top three values that you have. I bet you like 366 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.839 eighty percent of people will say equality in one of 367 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:16.000 those values. But you would say, and you wrote it, 368 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:19.079 equality is unfair. Yeah, absolutely, So can you do you 369 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:21.559 care to explain that concept to people, which is very 370 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:23.079 foreign here in Portugal? 371 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.920 Sure, I mean we're all different, we have different skills, 372 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.519 different abilities. I mean, it's a fact, and it's what 373 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.200 makes life interesting and fun. Is the fact the world different. 374 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:32.599 Wall the same, it would be horrible. 375 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.319 So given the wall different, we all have different values. 376 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:42.000 We all work at different jobs, a different level of engagement. 377 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:45.519 We work harder, we work less. Some people like to 378 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.039 be at the beach a lot of the time. Some 379 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:49.319 people are lazy, some people are hard working. We have 380 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:54.559 different moral characters, all different in every dimension. So the 381 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:56.400 outcome of that is going to be we're going to 382 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.279 produce at different levels. So it's produced a lot. So 383 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:04.440 it's produce a lot a bit, And the economic inequality 384 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:07.319 is just a reflection of how much you produce. And 385 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:11.559 that's that's just reality. You can ignore reality, you can 386 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.680 evade the reality you can pretend it doesn't exist, but 387 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.119 the fact is we all produce different amounts, and therefore 388 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.680 income is different and our wealth is different. When you 389 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:24.279 try to equate us in terms of outcome, then you 390 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:26.920 have to use cursion. You have to use force. You 391 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:29.680 have to take from the person who was really hard working, 392 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:32.960 had a great idea, started a business, created something that 393 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.720 didn't exist before. You have to forcibly take from that 394 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:39.839 person and give it to In some cases people who 395 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:43.400 just maybe are not that smart, or maybe people who 396 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:47.799 are you know, got a bad break in life, or 397 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:50.799 people who are lazy, or people with bad moral character 398 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.359 who people don't want to work hard, who you don't 399 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:54.880 want to sit in front of the television and play 400 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:59.359 video games all day. So they get by using force. 401 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.920 They steal, in a sense, the wealth from the person 402 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:04.880 who actually created it. So the only way to achieve 403 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:09.359 equality is through violence. It's through taking. And so equality 404 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:14.319 is a phenomena of violence, and it is it ignores 405 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:19.559 the metaphysical reality they were not equal, the mesicallygical reality 406 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:22.799 that we don't produce the same amounts. Now, people believe 407 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:28.079 that businessmen exploit the money they own is not earned right, 408 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.400 rich people do. But the reality is that you can't 409 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:35.279 become rich unless you make products that people want and 410 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:36.920 you sell it to them at the price they're willing 411 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:40.880 to pay, and thus doing your making your customers lives better. 412 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.119 Because nobody buys stuff to make themselves worse. Nobody buys 413 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:48.720 stuff because they don't care. People buy stuff because they 414 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:51.920 believe that by buying it, their life will be improved. 415 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:57.839 And you're doing that by creating the stuff. By opening 416 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:01.720 a store, by opening a restaurant, you enhancing the lives 417 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.559 of the people you engage with. And instead of viewing 418 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:10.079 them as virtuous, as good people because they've gone out there, 419 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:13.519 they've worked, they've they've created something for themselves and made 420 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:17.920 everybody else's lives better, we viewed them as scoundrels, as 421 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.559 bad guys, exploiters, and we want to take their stuff. 422 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:26.640 That's unbelievably unjust. There's another moral principle, right justice. Justice 423 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:29.759 means getting what you deserve. If you sit all day 424 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.160 and play video games, you don't deserve anything, right, you 425 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:35.440 deserve the video game. That's it. And if you starve, 426 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:39.559 it's your problem. If you go and build a new 427 00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:43.079 company and create a new product that people enjoy and 428 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:46.359 value and are willing to pay for You deserve to 429 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.720 make a lot of money. So the system that allows 430 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:51.400 some people to make a lot of money and other 431 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:54.480 people to have less is a system of justice, the 432 00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:57.720 exact opposite of kind of social justice, which is what 433 00:24:57.799 --> 00:24:58.680 the socialists push for. 434 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.039 Ye, So it's complete reversal. They don't even believe in 435 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:07.559 objective morality, right, They the New Left, and this every 436 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.720 type of thing that I've seen, they all deny objective morality, 437 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:14.839 but they seem to be the most moralists as possible. Yes, 438 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:16.200 a funny combination. 439 00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.799 They live by a certain objective morality. That is, their 440 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:22.759 morality is based on on altruism. The morality is based 441 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.799 on the idea that the poorer you are, that the 442 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.440 less you have for whatever reason, it doesn't matter to 443 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:35.759 them why you're more virtuous, you're good. And the more 444 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.359 successful you are, the ritue you are, the more prosperous 445 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.160 you are, the more you've done with your life, the 446 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.160 more evil you are. And the idea is that the 447 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:46.519 only way to get success, to be successful in life, 448 00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:50.480 is to exploit the unsuccessful. So everything is about oppression 449 00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:56.839 oppressed and oppressed oppressor. So the successful oppressors. The failures 450 00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.960 are oppressed, and therefore the failures of the good guy 451 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:02.680 and the successors are the bad guys. And you can 452 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:04.880 see that all over the world. So if a country 453 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:07.759 is rich and successful and prosperous, they must be evil. 454 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.680 If a if a country is poor and miserable and 455 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:16.119 treating people horribly, and everybody is everybody is really in 456 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:18.720 bad shape, well they must be oppressed. So the other 457 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.599 good guys and and and that's global politics today. 458 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:24.880 So there's a phrase from Solzenski that really puts it 459 00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:27.920 well in terms of equality. It was also born in 460 00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:32.079 Soviet Union, born and lived there, and all these books. 461 00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:34.599 Were persecuted then were sent to the Gulags, and I 462 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.240 lived a horrible in. 463 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.519 The Gurlag archipelago. He says. He has a really good 464 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:43.160 quote when he says that human human beings are born different. 465 00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:46.359 That's it, just like you said. So if we are different, 466 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:49.079 we will never be the same. Only and if we 467 00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:50.559 are free, we will never be the same. 468 00:26:50.599 --> 00:26:51.519 Right, exactly. 469 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:54.000 The only way that we are equal is if we 470 00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.440 are not free, yes, absolutely, and even and even then, 471 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.599 you know, even when we not free, we're not equal. 472 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.640 I mean, it was everybody equal in Soviet Union. No, 473 00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.119 I mean, is everybody equal in the Gulug? I mean, 474 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:08.799 I think one of the points he makes is no, 475 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.359 not even in the Gulag. Some people are more industrious 476 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.519 and find ways to do better in the Goolug. Some 477 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.519 people just give up and die very quickly in the Goolug. 478 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.519 So even when you have zero freedom, when everything is controlled, 479 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:26.759 we're not all going to be equal, you know, because 480 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:27.599 we're all different. 481 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:29.480 And that's what would you say that the quality is 482 00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:31.839 are anti human value? 483 00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:34.480 Yes, now there is one form of equality that's proke, 484 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.039 human and good. I mean, the founding fathers of America, 485 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:41.200 they start off the Declaration of Dependence. They start off 486 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:43.880 the Declaration Independence with the statement all men are created equal. 487 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:47.400 But they they didn't mean it in a sense that 488 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:50.799 the socialists or the left mant it. They mean it, 489 00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:53.519 and they meant it in the sensus. Politically, that is 490 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:57.000 that all men have equal rights. They will all have 491 00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:59.400 the right of life, liberty, you know, property, in the 492 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:02.839 pursuit of happens, we all must be protected by the 493 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.880 law equally. That sense, a political equality, I think, is 494 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.680 the only sense in which equality means anything for human beings. 495 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.559 Any other sense of equality, equality of outcome, equality of opportunity, 496 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:21.880 all forms of you know, trying to evade the metaphysical 497 00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:25.960 reality and using force and coasion in order to do it. 498 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.960 So permit me a pivot now in the discussion. So 499 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:36.160 we are known as a libertarian podcast. We discuss about politics, economics, philosophy. 500 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.000 That's why you're here, right. Why did n Rand didn't 501 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:45.559 refer to ourselves as a libertarian much? Why objectivism and 502 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.359 objectivists in general don't refer to themselves as libertarian because 503 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:53.960 it seems as a political system. I mean, libertarianism seems 504 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:59.680 like an expected political system if you think objectively. 505 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.160 Or maybe not. This is what we're going to talk about, right, 506 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.920 So it's not that Ironman didn't refer to herself as 507 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:09.519 a libertarian. Ironland was very negative on libertarians. She was 508 00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:13.519 very negative on them. And so I think there are 509 00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:17.519 a few reasons. One, objectives is a philosophy. It's not 510 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:20.599 a it's not politics, it's not a political it's not 511 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:25.319 just a political philosophy, it's a philosophy. And Ironmand rejected 512 00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:28.960 the idea that you could have a political philosophy libertarianism 513 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:36.000 without a system. Morality, epistemology, metaphys without a philosophical foundations. 514 00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:38.240 She thought it was a waste of time to just 515 00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:40.880 focus on politics as mostly in an economics, which is 516 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:44.640 what most libertarians focus on. She said, you need a philosophy, 517 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.759 and everybody has a philosophy and what And she worried 518 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:55.119 that because the libertarians accepted anybody's philosophy, that it basically 519 00:29:55.720 --> 00:30:00.200 made the politics untenable. It made the politics unintelligible, and 520 00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:04.039 ultimately it was a weak foundation. It was a quicksand right. 521 00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:06.920 You couldn't build a good foundation. You needed a proper 522 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:11.160 philosophy to have the foundation of liberty. And of course 523 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:14.640 she was right. And the consequence of that is that 524 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:20.160 you you know, what does libertarianism actually mean? Right? You know, 525 00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:24.079 some libertarians believe in limited governments and individual rights, but 526 00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:25.920 there were a lot of libertarians out there who believe 527 00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:29.559 in anarchy, that there should be no government and anything goes. 528 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.720 Libertarians have defended pedophilia. I mean, if the child wants it, 529 00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:38.960 they have at liberty to do it. Right. It's pretty crazy, 530 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:42.000 but they're all under the tent of libertarianism because they 531 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.559 have a rotten definition of a philosophical definition. You know, 532 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:49.359 the So the libertarians who take a lot of different 533 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:54.680 and and and in many cases pretty crazy positions right now, 534 00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:58.880 for example, you've got libertarians who hate America, who hate Israel, 535 00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:02.960 who hates civilization, and who are pop puting, and yet 536 00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:06.359 they call themselves libertarian. You know, the libertarians. There's no 537 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:09.480 liberty in any of the you know, there's no liberty there. 538 00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:12.119 And you've got at the same time people who are 539 00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:15.000 exactly the opposite. So is what is libertarianism? What's the 540 00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.359 policy that libertarian actually retornis am actually advocate for. And 541 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:21.039 I think the problem is it's too big of a pretent. 542 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:26.839 There's too many different elements underneath this label, and it 543 00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:29.680 doesn't have the proper philosophical foundation. So there's no way 544 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.720 to fix the tent without a foundation. 545 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:35.440 I would say. And we can speak a little bit 546 00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:37.920 about it, because I completely agree with you when you 547 00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:42.640 say that libertarian libertarianism is incomplete. And most of people 548 00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:45.559 that say they are libertarian and they don't think too 549 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.759 much about it because it sounds good. It doesn't sound 550 00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:51.519 good in Portugal at all. It's a very hard thing 551 00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:53.599 to sell, let me tell you. But it does sound 552 00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:56.599 good in people that try to prioritize freedom because that 553 00:31:56.680 --> 00:31:59.119 sounds good, right, I mean, why should people steal from me? 554 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.319 Why should people tell me how to live? I should 555 00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.240 decide that for myself. It's very consistent with objectivism. But 556 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:08.000 they try to explain everything and try to re orientate 557 00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:11.240 the world in a sense with only objective, with only 558 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.839 libertar Liberty is very simple, actually, and it doesn't try 559 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.559 to solve much. It's it's very in my mind, that's 560 00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:21.240 my perspective. I see it just as the principle of 561 00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.759 non aggression, no non aggression, the non aggression principle. 562 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:24.119 That's it. 563 00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:26.839 So it doesn't tell you all to live at all. 564 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:30.880 It just tells you you shouldn't aggress and initiate violence 565 00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:35.720 against someone else, and that's it. In all forms. Anything else, 566 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.960 then you have other systems that inform your reasoning. But 567 00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:43.079 of course, example we are Libertardian and conservative, so I 568 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:46.319 super agree with you that without a moral system that 569 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:50.319 underpins your liberty, then you just descend into guests. 570 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:55.160 Absolutely so. So so yes, I mean, this is this 571 00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:56.599 is the challenge, right So. 572 00:32:57.319 --> 00:32:59.279 But I wouldn't say it's a fault of Libertatianism. I 573 00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:02.359 would say people are just trying to do with libertarianism 574 00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:03.559 more than it promises. 575 00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:07.279 But look, libertarianism is really a term that was founded, 576 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:10.640 created really in the nineteen sixties to a lodge extent 577 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:16.160 by Mario rothbod Correct, who was an anarchist who believed 578 00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:18.480 in a lot more than a non aggression principle. And 579 00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:21.319 of course the non aggression principle is not a principle 580 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:26.720 because it has to have a mal reason. Why don't digress? 581 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:30.440 I mean, every system of thought in human history was 582 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:38.200 pro aggression. You know, Judaism is progression, Christianity's progression Islamist progression. 583 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.680 Every secular philosopher and ever existed is progression if it's 584 00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:44.680 for the good cause, if it's for the right cause, right, 585 00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:49.519 and they've all practiced aggression. So you need to justify 586 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:52.200 the non aggression principle. It's not a starting point, it's 587 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:54.680 an end in a sense. And I think in order 588 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:57.000 to justify the non aggression principle you have to have 589 00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:02.039 the right moral code. Almost everybody has a wrong model code. 590 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:04.480 And therefore when you come to the non aggression principle, 591 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.519 they go, well, that doesn't sound right, that doesn't make 592 00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:11.480 any sense, because it doesn't it's inconsistent with what forward before. 593 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:17.079 So you know, so libertarianism from the beginning, we're set 594 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:19.840 up as a system that's much more than non aggression. 595 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:24.400 It has positions and pretty much everything, and it has 596 00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:29.760 positions about and even when it comes to kind of 597 00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:33.400 if we agree that there should be an individual right, well, 598 00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:37.320 where the rights come from, which rights exist, who has rights? 599 00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:41.159 How do we apply it in government? Those all tricky questions. 600 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:43.519 They're not obvious and how to do it. Non aggression 601 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.320 doesn't tell you how to solve those problems. Those are 602 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:49.440 problems that need we solved. And yet your philosophical foundations 603 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:50.960 are going to dictate to a large extent, how you 604 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.559 solve those problems, and therefore we disagree. So I think 605 00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:56.920 it's a problem to have a big tent. And since 606 00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:00.559 I do have a philosophy, I do have the model foundations. Uh, 607 00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:03.239 there's no reason for me to belong to attend because 608 00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:07.440 I find itself. For example, I think libertary. I think 609 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.679 anarchists people who call themselves an alco capitalist. I don't 610 00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:12.559 know if you guys call yourself an aco capitalist, but 611 00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:16.320 I think that is a very very dangerous ideology. I 612 00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:20.760 think it's an anti freedom ideology that ultimately leads to bloodshed. 613 00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:24.079 I don't think it leads to the non aggression principle. 614 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:26.800 I think it actually leads to aggression. And it's a 615 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:30.559 it's a it's an issue in arco capitalism that actually 616 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.400 engages the idea of individual rights. Right. It's because there's 617 00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:36.599 no entity that actually protects individual rights, because individual rights 618 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:37.840 are tradable in the marketplace. 619 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:40.199 What do you say if people give you some like 620 00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:45.960 historical examples like the medieval Island because people also have different. 621 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:50.039 I love Medieval Iceland because it's yeah, everybody, everybody, everybody 622 00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:51.119 gives me the me, just finish. 623 00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:55.559 Because some people also see an archo capitalism in different ways, 624 00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:58.559 and I really don't like it when people think, oh, 625 00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:01.360 an archo capitalism is just there's not going to be 626 00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:05.239 leadership at all, no hierarchies, no everything. And I think 627 00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:08.079 that's pretty dumb, to be honest, I think that's pretty 628 00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:11.920 dumb to think that humans will organize themselves in that 629 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:16.119 way because leadership and aerarchy is a pretty natural human 630 00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:18.719 expectant consequence. 631 00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:22.639 Yeah, so I've never be free. I've never heard of 632 00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:25.400 a design of an alcoho capitalism that makes any sense 633 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:28.400 to me. They all fall apart, they all turn into violence. 634 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.480 And so Iceland was one of the first examples that 635 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:33.760 people always use. In one of the primary example, David 636 00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:37.000 Friedman used it, of course. So I visited Iceland, and 637 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:41.159 I asked, as a libertarian economist there, I said, you know, 638 00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.079 how do how do I learn about that period in 639 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:45.760 Icelandic history? Because I'd like to learn more about what 640 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:48.239 actually happened. He said, the best thing is is go 641 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:52.199 read the Sagas, the story of kind of the stories 642 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:55.559 of what was going on. So I bought they were 643 00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:57.239 selling the Sagas, and I bought them and I read 644 00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:01.800 them on a plane and all, my god, right, so 645 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.320 this is what happened in Iceland. Right, I would steal 646 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:08.119 your horse, so you would come and kill my wife, 647 00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:10.119 so I would kill your children. And then we go 648 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:12.639 in front of this big gathering right that they had 649 00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:14.840 once I don't know a month, once a year in 650 00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:17.719 Iceland in and we and they say, oh, well, you 651 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:19.440 guys need to stop, and you give him and you 652 00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:21.840 compensate him and say okay, and we do all that, 653 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:24.000 and then we go back home and we go No, 654 00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:25.719 I'm still pissed off. At you, So I go kill 655 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:27.559 some more of your children, and you come and steal 656 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.000 more of my host. And the whole saga is is 657 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:34.719 everybody's killing everybody else, constant violence, which is exactly the 658 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:37.159 way I perceive anarchy to be. Anarchy is a system 659 00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:38.760 of violence. It's a system. 660 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:40.519 But that's not what happened, right, That's. 661 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.039 Exactly what happened in Iceland. 662 00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:44.119 Because most of most of the most of the data 663 00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:48.480 informs that there was much less murder than the medium 664 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:50.360 average of what you had in Europe. 665 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.840 No, they were the First of all, You've got to 666 00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:56.480 be suspicious of data from that period of time, particularly 667 00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.800 if you're doing median vis a vis might not that story. 668 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:02.960 These are the only accounts we have. These are really 669 00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:05.840 the only accounts we have of what happened in Iceland. 670 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:10.119 We don't have detailed records, we don't have a history, 671 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:13.039 a formal history. Really, all we have to learn from 672 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:17.000 Iceland to Loge extent is what the stories that were told. 673 00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:19.320 This is. This was not a civil This the other thing, right, 674 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.440 it's pretty primitive, right, This is not a civilization where 675 00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:25.840 they were doing science or or writing, or engaged in writing, 676 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:28.920 or engaged in history. Or engaged in everything. It was 677 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:31.400 primitive and it stayed primitive for a very very long time. 678 00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:36.280 So if you look at societies where you actually saw progress, 679 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:38.039 which I care about, I just don't. I don't want 680 00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:41.119 to live in Iceland, you know, just being a farmer. 681 00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:43.320 I want to I want I want to progress. If 682 00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:46.000 you look at progress, progress doesn't start in Iceland. Progress 683 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.599 starts in Florence. A progress starts in in in in 684 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.840 Europe under very very different conditions h than it did 685 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:57.039 in Iceland. So there's no example that I know of 686 00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.840 in human history where a it was truly peaceful and 687 00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:04.880 b you actually had anything good happening. Right. So it's 688 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.880 one thing to live in peace, it's another thing to 689 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:10.440 advance the progress for good stuff to happen. 690 00:39:10.519 --> 00:39:13.840 Becausepaia progress pretty much. I mean, they build amazing palaces. 691 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:17.599 They made themselves rich by planting tobacco that it was 692 00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:19.679 forbidden in Italy at the time. Caspaia. 693 00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:21.719 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know the story because. 694 00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:24.119 It was like five hundred of years long, their story. 695 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:26.519 But I think you make some great points. I think 696 00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:27.519 you make some great points. 697 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:29.719 And you know I've debated this. You can find my 698 00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:32.000 you know, I've done a couple of debates on this, 699 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:35.920 when in Poland and one with Blan Kaplan. Uh, and 700 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.440 they've got to link the essay on why I objected 701 00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:39.360 OCCO capitalism. 702 00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:41.239 I think you make some good points, and it is 703 00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:44.719 difficult to defend in a sense because it's a freedom system, 704 00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:48.159 so you don't really know, but you are defending. 705 00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:50.159 Because it's not a freedom system. This is the fundamental 706 00:39:50.199 --> 00:39:53.559 philosophical issue. It's not a freedom system because for freedom 707 00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:56.039 you have to define what freedom means. And to do 708 00:39:56.119 --> 00:39:58.360 that you have to have a principle of individual rights. 709 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:01.679 You have to have a system of right and rights 710 00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:05.840 need to be defended, and you can't. You know, Brian Kaplan, 711 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:08.719 when I debated him, acknowledge the fact that in a 712 00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:14.159 system with multiple police forces, where we're competing and different judiciaries, yes, 713 00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:16.960 the individual rights will be violated because you know, what 714 00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:21.280 come to compromises. I'm not buying an idealistic system in 715 00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:23.320 which we compromise on individual rights. 716 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.119 That happens nowadays, right, well, nowadays, it's not a good system. 717 00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:29.679 I'm not defending. I'm not defending the system that exists today. 718 00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:31.039 I'm not defending government. 719 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:37.320 Even more if you already have law enforcement states. 720 00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:38.400 Well, I'm saying you have to have. I mean, we 721 00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:41.079 don't live in a world that understands what individual rights are. 722 00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:43.599 We don't live in a world that has composed its 723 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.079 laws and its principles based on individual rights. So we 724 00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:50.480 don't you know, we can't learn much about what a 725 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:53.480 proper system would look like based on you know, what 726 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:54.400 we have today. 727 00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:57.239 Exactly, So that it's a fair argument both ways, but 728 00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:00.159 you do you make a good case for it. I 729 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:03.079 would like to extend some of these conversations also for 730 00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:06.000 some of the rights, because you spoke about and one 731 00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:08.280 of their phrases, it was really a good one that 732 00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:11.039 I'd like just said, if the pursuit of happiness is 733 00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:15.000 rational and pro life, objectivists are not known for being 734 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:18.280 pro life, right, so I would like to discuss that 735 00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:23.639 point on an abortion so when the right to life begins? 736 00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:28.639 So, yeah, we're very pro life. I mean, objectivism is 737 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.519 all about pro life. It's the life of the mother, 738 00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:34.920 the life the life. Yeah, it's all about semantics, right, 739 00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:39.679 I mean, you guys chose the anti abortion side, chose 740 00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:42.719 pro life for some antic reasons. Sounds good. We're pro 741 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:46.960 poor life, the real human life that actually exists, versus 742 00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.760 the potential human life that doesn't exist yet. So we 743 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:54.840 view a fetus is not human, right, it's a potential human. 744 00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:57.840 It will become a human being, but it's not yet human, 745 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.800 and it's not yet an individual, so rights about individual. 746 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:06.760 So it hasn't been individuated, it hasn't been separated. So 747 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:10.199 all the rights at this point politically, all the rights 748 00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:13.760 with the mother, you know, the it's it's the state 749 00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:18.000 has the total responsibility of protecting the mother, not the fetus. 750 00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.400 The state has no relationship with the fetus. It's not 751 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:25.280 an individual, it's not being separated, and it's not human yet. 752 00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:28.400 It's only a potential human. It's certainly in the first 753 00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:31.880 few months it's just you know, it's am CLMP of cells. 754 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:35.400 But you don't think it starts after a few months, right, 755 00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:40.239 Well when when? No, because it's worth worth defending that. 756 00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:44.679 Well, once it becomes human and separate, So when it's born. 757 00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:47.639 So when it's born, So for example, if if I 758 00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:51.440 have like eight months, if so there's a newborn which 759 00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:54.199 was born a little bit prior to the nine months, 760 00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:57.800 let's say seven months and a half, is already born 761 00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.000 is in terms of development is exactly the same as 762 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:01.679 the other. 763 00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:03.280 Well, it's not. It usually has to be in a 764 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:04.440 in a you know. 765 00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.960 Special case, let's say eight months now, it doesn't really matter. 766 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:08.519 I mean, it's not a matter of time. It's a 767 00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:11.400 matter of being born. But that's matter what I. 768 00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:12.800 Want to that's what I want to test with you, 769 00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:16.159 which is if I'm more like a week prior and 770 00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:18.280 there is the same baby which is still in the womb, 771 00:43:18.440 --> 00:43:21.639 I mean, those are essentially the same beings in terms 772 00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:24.840 of development, in terms of capabilities and everything. So why 773 00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:27.760 one can be killed and the other as the full 774 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:28.440 right to life? 775 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:31.760 It seems a bit I mean defense, I mean, because 776 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:36.159 they are completely different entities. One is breathing, the other 777 00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:40.639 is achieving all of it's all of its life requirements 778 00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:44.079 come through the ambility corde. It's not breathing, it's not eating, 779 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:49.119 it's not digesting. It's it's it has no individual life. 780 00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:53.119 It's not an individual yet, you know. It's it's it's 781 00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:56.400 not right to begin at the time. To be to 782 00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:58.119 have rights, you have to be an individual. So it's 783 00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:00.239 just a legal it's a legal concept, right. 784 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:04.679 So uh, but let's not discuss it that the legal concept, right, 785 00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:08.199 because legality doesn't dequate to morality. Let's keep it on 786 00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:09.519 the morality. 787 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:13.360 But on all principle, it's often immol to have an abortion. 788 00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:16.599 So morality is about reason and rationality. So it's a 789 00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:19.320 question of why is a woman having an abortion? Uh, 790 00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:22.840 if you if you lived in Brazil and had Zica 791 00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:27.880 and and your your fetus's brain had shriveled and was 792 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:29.880 like tiny, and if it was going to be born, 793 00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:34.199 it would survive for a few months in complete out 794 00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:36.639 of misery and pain the entire time. 795 00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:40.079 It's immoral not to abort that child, you think so? 796 00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:42.519 Absolutely? But absolutely are. 797 00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:44.199 We certain that that's going to be his life? 798 00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:47.320 I mean, that's called science. It's it's called science. 799 00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:51.599 It because not certain one under oh yes it is. 800 00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:55.440 Example, if you if you have a shrunken brain and 801 00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:57.760 and you know, we we know what zeka is, we 802 00:44:57.800 --> 00:44:58.880 know how it performs. 803 00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:01.599 Absolutely we know exactly what the life is going to do. 804 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:03.840 An example, and even if it's not, let's say I'm 805 00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.480 going to have a child, yeah, and it's ninety percent. 806 00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:08.719 Probable that I'll have it a life like that exactly, 807 00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:12.280 I would I would absolutely kill it before. Absolutely, But 808 00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:17.840 why because because the misery of ninety percent probability misery 809 00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:20.239 is so horrible that I would never. 810 00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:22.760 Want to inflict on another human being that kind of misery. 811 00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:25.719 It's why I believe in That's why I believe suicide 812 00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:29.360 is not immoral. It's often moral. It's why you know, 813 00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:33.320 so I think sometimes sometimes life is not worth living. 814 00:45:33.480 --> 00:45:36.639 Yeah, but you just said, like some a few moments ago, 815 00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:39.360 that you can be suffering a lot and still be happy, right, 816 00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:42.599 So it doesn't really equate to a utilitarian. 817 00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:45.199 A baby, a baby that has no conception and is 818 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:49.920 born and is just suffering. It's it's intense pain. Oh god, 819 00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:52.679 I would give I would do anything to avoid that. 820 00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:55.559 But if even if I said to you, okay, let's 821 00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:59.360 then forbid every single others of the ninety nine point 822 00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:02.800 six percent of abortions, you would still didn't care because 823 00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:04.280 you would still be in favor of that. 824 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:07.320 Right. Yeah, but again you you you shifted on me 825 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:10.360 because you've gone to politics inte of morality. Right, So 826 00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:15.840 politically politically absolutely, it's not an individual, it doesn't have rights, no, 827 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:20.599 but morally speaking, morally politics, but you know, may. 828 00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:23.000 The point is, is it rational. That is the point. 829 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:27.719 Look, almost no abortions happened in eighth in the eighth months, 830 00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.440 the number of abortion in the eighth month is almost zero. 831 00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:32.719 And when it does happen, you would be fine with it. 832 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:35.400 But when it does happen, yeah, But the point is 833 00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:38.679 that that we're looking we're talking about actual phenomena, like 834 00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:42.079 because of morality, not because of legal Because of morality, 835 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:45.719 doctors won't perform the abortion in the eighth month, and 836 00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:48.519 and and mother and and and and potential mothers don't 837 00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:52.519 want to do it. So that's that's a moral point. Legally, yes, legally, 838 00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:55.519 state has no business it, right, the state has no business. 839 00:46:55.719 --> 00:46:58.599 So Mali doctors won't do it for good reason. And 840 00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:00.679 I don't think you know, I think it's good that 841 00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:04.440 they don't do it if you're a woman, because it's 842 00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:06.880 because somemall issue. Let me get to the mall issue. 843 00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:10.159 If you're a woman and you've they you know, you're 844 00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:12.639 you're pregnant, you know you're going to have a baby, 845 00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:15.679 and you know coming eight months you feel like you 846 00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:18.679 don't want to have it, that's you know, again, my 847 00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:22.119 morality is about reason. Right, you have to take responsibility. 848 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:26.000 So at that point, just you're you know, the whim 849 00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:28.519 of not doing it. That's why you know it's it's 850 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:30.519 it's harmful to you as a woman to have an 851 00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:33.559 abortion at the eighth month. It's dangerous for you. There's 852 00:47:33.639 --> 00:47:35.280 so many reasons why you wouldn't want to do it. 853 00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:38.599 So the only time we have abortions in the eighth 854 00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:43.320 month is either because the fetus is really in bad 855 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:45.599 shape and it's not it is going to have a 856 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:47.960 horrible life, is not going to survive, or the mother 857 00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:50.440 is going to die as a consequence. So those are 858 00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:54.960 the only abortions in those stations. Earlier than that, most 859 00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:58.679 of almost all abortions happened before the twentieth weeks, something 860 00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.400 like ninety two percent of abortion having before twenty first week. 861 00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:03.880 And at that point, Yeah, it's not a human being, 862 00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:10.199 it's not individuated, and it has no there's no moral issue. 863 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:13.519 I view it the other way around. Look, if you're 864 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:16.559 a woman and you're pregnant and you don't want. 865 00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:19.199 To have a child, don't have sex. 866 00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:22.880 Oh god, yeah, but that's that's what it boils down to. 867 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:26.480 You should have sex. Sex is wonderful, Have lots of sex. People, 868 00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:28.159 Please sex. 869 00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:30.679 And why the sex exists. Let's be rational, why the 870 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:32.000 sex exist in nature? 871 00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:35.679 Yeah, but see we're not animals. No, but my question, Yeah, 872 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.480 for sex existence. We're not animals, but we're not that 873 00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:41.920 kind of animals. We'll step above animals. So we can 874 00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:45.360 take something that in the animal kingdom only exists for procreation, 875 00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:53.360 and we can make it a spiritual, meaningful, pleasurable, you know, engaging, stimulating, 876 00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:54.360 fun thing to do. 877 00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:57.320 But the next sequence of sex will remain. You can 878 00:48:57.320 --> 00:48:57.760 do all of that. 879 00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:00.360 No, but that's why you have contraception. Right, you can 880 00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.000 have abortion. This is the beauty of abortion. So I'm 881 00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:07.280 not just anti anti abortion, I'm poor abortion. I think 882 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:09.440 that if you're if you're a woman and you're pregnant 883 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:12.559 and you do not want to have a child, you 884 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:15.559 your moral obligation is to have an abortion because the 885 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:17.119 worst thing in the world is to bring a child 886 00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:20.679 into the world who is not wanted. So have that 887 00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:24.199 abortion and and live your life. And plus you're gonna 888 00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:27.119 have to live nine months. I mean, I had a predator. 889 00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:29.320 I've got two kids, so I know what pregnancy is like. 890 00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:31.880 Nine months which are hard. You know, it's not easy 891 00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:34.000 for a woman to go through pregnancy, particularly when you 892 00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:37.639 don't want it. So I think the right thing to do, 893 00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:39.960 the rational thing to do, the moral thing to do, 894 00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:41.760 is to get an abortion, and to get it very 895 00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.199 very early. This is why abortion pills are great, and 896 00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:46.320 getting an abortion in the first three months is ideal 897 00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:50.760 because it very little medical impact on you. It's still 898 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:53.760 just a clump of cells and you get to live 899 00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:55.159 your life the way you want to live your life. 900 00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:58.000 We are a comp of cells, just much more more 901 00:49:58.079 --> 00:49:59.199 cells than yeah, but we're. 902 00:49:59.079 --> 00:50:02.320 Not comp of cells, not human. My my skin cells, 903 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:04.840 my skin cells are human. They have all my DNA. 904 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:07.440 But I do this and they die just like the fetus, 905 00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:08.039 and they die. 906 00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:08.880 They are human as well. 907 00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:10.960 Yeah, but that's why we don't. We don't get upset 908 00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:13.039 when my skin cells die. We don't get accept when 909 00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:14.480 when you. 910 00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:17.800 Brush your screen. It will never become a full rational 911 00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:18.440 human being. 912 00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:22.320 With The point is you cannot conflate a potential with 913 00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:28.880 the actual, exactly the the the fetus's potential. It's not 914 00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:31.760 actual until it's actual, and one day will become actual. 915 00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:34.880 And the separating point is pretty clicker. 916 00:50:34.840 --> 00:50:37.840 Because I would say it's much it's I would say 917 00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:41.440 probably if you ask an adult human being, what do 918 00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:43.800 you think would be worse? You're not being desired in 919 00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:47.719 the world by your mother, are you dying? They will 920 00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:51.079 pretty much say, I mean that would. 921 00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:52.440 But you're not get conscious of your own death, so 922 00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:55.239 it's meaningless, right, So you never existing is the point. 923 00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:57.920 And a lot of a lot of humans about the 924 00:50:57.960 --> 00:50:58.639 four months old. 925 00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:02.280 Yeah, but you can't because he's already experienced reality and 926 00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.119 he's already functioning by himself. And and it's it's. 927 00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:06.559 Completely itself, is not autonomous. 928 00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:11.280 Nobody's walking, he's calling, is sticking, he's moving, is moving. 929 00:51:11.480 --> 00:51:13.119 He's moving inside of the belly as well. 930 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:16.039 No, it's just moving with a fluid. He's moving. He's 931 00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:19.519 not self initiating action. It is a huge is a 932 00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:20.360 huge difference. 933 00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:22.360 So if a baby moves in the womb, it's not 934 00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:23.719 the mother that moves it. 935 00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:26.079 It moves by himself. No, it's floating in the liquid 936 00:51:26.119 --> 00:51:26.840 and it moves around. 937 00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:30.360 Come on, it kicks, you know that, you know, come on, But. 938 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:33.079 It's not kicking because it wants to kick. It just kicks. 939 00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:35.880 It's not it's not it's not self directed. But the 940 00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:36.960 action is not self. 941 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:39.400 It's the same. I know two months old at all. Yes, 942 00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:41.480 it doesn't decide anything, it just acts. 943 00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:45.440 But some things it decides absolutely some things at once, 944 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:47.519 and it desires and it goes. It sucks, right, it 945 00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:48.199 knows how to suck. 946 00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:51.199 Because the I have an issue with because I think 947 00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:55.519 ultimately is another version of the consciousness argument. It's like, oh, 948 00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:59.119 it doesn't have this particular ability that I think is 949 00:51:59.239 --> 00:52:02.239 necessary for you to give him rights. The conscious people 950 00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:04.519 they say, oh, they need consciousness, they need to feel 951 00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:07.760 pain and feel consciousness. And that's around an arbitrary number 952 00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:10.400 that sometimes put that twenty weeks or whatever. Some people 953 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:12.760 say eight weeks, some people. It varies widely. 954 00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:14.840 Yeah, I think it's I think it's somewhat arbitrary. I mean, 955 00:52:14.920 --> 00:52:19.000 I I someone understand people who say, you know, if 956 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:22.400 it could survive outside the womb, then you shouldn't abort it. 957 00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:24.360 That That is what I think is there is the 958 00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:28.119 most reasonable argument you can make. But but I don't 959 00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:31.719 accept even that argument because again it's not you know, legally, 960 00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:33.920 it does not it does not have the rights. And look, 961 00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:37.119 I don't think women should have bought. 962 00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:39.960 But after a certain point, what do you mention legal 963 00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:42.119 legally doesn't have the right thing. It doesn't really matter 964 00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:43.920 because we're talking about morality. 965 00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:46.480 So legally, so again, morality legally I. 966 00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:49.079 Could be could considered a threat to the States and 967 00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:49.480 to me. 968 00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:53.960 To me, the moral is the rational, uh it is. 969 00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:56.079 It is mauld to do with your body as you 970 00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:58.599 see fit, and it is mauld to do with your 971 00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:00.880 body what you think is going to make your body better. 972 00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:04.119 The fetus is part of the mother's body. To deny 973 00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:07.920 her the ability to determine what happens to her body 974 00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:11.519 is to deny her freedom. It's to deny her agency. 975 00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:15.519 And it's imo. It's immoral to tell a woman you 976 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:19.079 you know, you can't make a change in your body 977 00:53:19.679 --> 00:53:22.280 that has massive implications for the rest of your life. 978 00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:24.760 Having children, as you know, because you have them, is 979 00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:30.440 a massive, you know, responsibility, it's huge. So and to 980 00:53:30.519 --> 00:53:33.679 deny sex because of that, which which I think ultimately 981 00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:39.000 is a lot of the motivation behind some people at 982 00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:43.920 least anti abortion stands, is horrific. Sex is a re 983 00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:47.159 information of life. It's a beautiful thing. It's an amazing thing. 984 00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:50.559 People should be encouraged to have sex, not not discourage, 985 00:53:50.599 --> 00:53:54.719 and then use contraception, use the methods not to get pregnant, 986 00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:58.880 and if an accident happens, there's an out. You're not 987 00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:02.719 doomed then to having a child for eighteen years. You're 988 00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:05.639 responsible to me. If you have a child, you're not 989 00:54:05.760 --> 00:54:09.519 responsible for it for eighteen years. In every aspect, it's 990 00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:13.239 not a small responsibility. This is a major responsibility. So 991 00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:16.639 be very, very very sure that you want it. And 992 00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:19.639 I want to give you as many opportunities to get 993 00:54:19.639 --> 00:54:22.840 out of that decision as possible, so that when you 994 00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:25.159 take on responsibility, you know exactly what's happening. 995 00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:28.760 Isn't that because I understand obviously the concept. It is 996 00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:32.920 a it is a challenge of different moral systems in 997 00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:36.280 terms of bodily autonomy, and oh, you are telling the 998 00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:38.079 woman what to do with her body. I mean, I 999 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:41.039 would say it's not everybody is within everybody, But it's fine. 1000 00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:44.119 It's a fine argument. It's valid, it's and the right 1001 00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:46.320 to life and all of that. I understand that complication. 1002 00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:50.039 But wouldn't you say that's fleeing away from consequence. I mean, 1003 00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:54.000 obviously I want to have sex for pleasure only sometimes, 1004 00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:57.239 and that's fine, that's completely fine, it's reasonable. I think 1005 00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:58.960 that's a great evolution. 1006 00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:00.519 All the sex I have today, all the sex I 1007 00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:01.960 have to for pleasure. 1008 00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:05.039 Exactly, you're not not having. But if it happens because 1009 00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:07.480 it is a natural consequence of sex, it is an 1010 00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:10.719 expected consequence of sex. Why should you have? Why should 1011 00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:12.280 you not deal with the consequences? 1012 00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:12.920 You want dealing with? 1013 00:55:14.639 --> 00:55:15.519 Is a life? 1014 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:19.159 You know? Yeah, if one of the ways in which 1015 00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:22.119 we deal with the consequence is to go through a 1016 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.960 small medical procedure and get rid of it, It's very 1017 00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:27.519 easy and very simple. Is you know, you can take 1018 00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:29.960 a pill and it just it just flushes out. So 1019 00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:34.280 so you know, science, science is made. But but but 1020 00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:37.039 everything is about dealing with the consequences. That is, again, 1021 00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:40.559 if you don't view the fetus as as as fully 1022 00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:44.480 manifest human life, then the best way to deal with 1023 00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:45.960 the consequence is to get rid of it. 1024 00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:50.559 So, for example, imagine on the pursuit. Yeah, we do 1025 00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:57.519 have questions, Okay, good, when does human life begin? 1026 00:55:57.639 --> 00:56:02.000 Objectively speaking, well, and it's separated from the mother, when 1027 00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:05.199 it's an actual independent being, I e. 1028 00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:08.679 It both, But that's when you recognize rights. Right, human 1029 00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:11.880 life begins at conception, right, it's human and it's a life. 1030 00:56:12.039 --> 00:56:16.480 Absolutely not my again, my my skin cell has all 1031 00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:19.519 the DNA that that that cell has in the beginning, 1032 00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:21.840 and it's I don't consider it human life. So it's 1033 00:56:21.880 --> 00:56:25.039 it's it's a couple of cells, you know, splitting and 1034 00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:28.000 it's multiplying. But it's not it's not yet human. It's 1035 00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:31.559 not yet developed into into into a human being, and 1036 00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:36.000 it's not individuated. So no human life begins when it's born. 1037 00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:39.239 Let me ask you something. It's life, it's just not human. 1038 00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:42.119 Imagine I'm doing an abortion potent human life. Imagine I'm 1039 00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:44.920 doing an abortion at seven months whatever. It doesn't matter 1040 00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:47.519 because for you morally it would be no problem because 1041 00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:48.480 it's not a human yet. 1042 00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:50.280 I didn't say there would be no problem. I said 1043 00:56:50.360 --> 00:56:50.800 it would be. 1044 00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:51.840 Why would be a problem. 1045 00:56:51.880 --> 00:56:54.400 Then again, it depends on why the woman is doing it. 1046 00:56:54.440 --> 00:56:58.719 Because it's seven months. It's it's a complicated medical procedure 1047 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:01.119 seven months. 1048 00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:01.960 It can happen. 1049 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:06.079 Yeah, so it can be moral. I'm not saying it's always. 1050 00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:08.000 So you would have a problem if I would do 1051 00:57:08.039 --> 00:57:11.719 a procedure on a seven month pregnant woman that would 1052 00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:15.000 abort the child. But I would I would do it 1053 00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:19.159 slightly different. I would cause the most painous possible to 1054 00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:21.599 the fetus. Would you have a problem with that? 1055 00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:24.079 Yeah, because you're being a sadist and you're not a 1056 00:57:24.079 --> 00:57:24.800 good human being. 1057 00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:27.519 But it doesn't matter. It's like it's like causing the 1058 00:57:27.559 --> 00:57:30.519 most pains possible to this phone. Yeah, but you wouldn't 1059 00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:32.440 have a problem with me smashing my phone. 1060 00:57:32.679 --> 00:57:34.440 So do you have a problem Do you think I 1061 00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:36.679 would have a problem with you causing the most pain 1062 00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:38.760 possible to your dog? Yeah? 1063 00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:39.960 That was my next question. 1064 00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:42.280 Yeah, I think it's I think it's to cause a 1065 00:57:42.280 --> 00:57:44.960 lot of pain to your dog, so purposefully right to 1066 00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:48.039 go through a process of making pain for your dog 1067 00:57:48.079 --> 00:57:51.599 for no reason I value, so you value. Yeah, but 1068 00:57:51.639 --> 00:57:53.039 I have no problem with you killing your dog. I 1069 00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:54.719 don't think you should go to jail for killing your job. 1070 00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:57.639 I don't think it's always in mal to kill your dog. 1071 00:57:57.639 --> 00:58:00.119 If your dog has cancer and you kill it, that 1072 00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:00.639 that's okay. 1073 00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:02.559 But no one is talking about going to jail. It's 1074 00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:05.480 talking you feel it easymoral. If I would beat the 1075 00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:08.400 shit out of my tops, I think that's a pretty 1076 00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:11.079 nasty thing to even though you don't recognize. 1077 00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:13.679 So, so the feed is you need to kill it 1078 00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:15.079 quickly so it doesn't feel pain. 1079 00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:16.559 That's right. 1080 00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:19.840 So this is what happens in abortion. In an abortion, 1081 00:58:20.239 --> 00:58:23.639 In an abortion, they do everything to zero. It's not 1082 00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:26.039 it's obviously not a comp ofselves for seven months, right, 1083 00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:28.639 it's it's it's it's a live being. 1084 00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:30.679 It's just not human exactly. But I mean, if it 1085 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:33.000 doesn't add the right to life, it certainly doesn't have 1086 00:58:33.039 --> 00:58:35.679 the right to comfort. Why should we protect it from suffering. 1087 00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:39.519 I'm not saying anybody should protect it. There's no legal 1088 00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:42.320 issue here. You have an issue with it, yes, morally, 1089 00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:45.239 I have an issue with inflicting pain on purpose. Right, 1090 00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:48.000 we're talking about on purpose here. Now we're not talking 1091 00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:50.559 about it's the only way to do with the abortion. 1092 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:53.199 We're talking about on purpose and inflicting pain. I have 1093 00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:55.880 a problem with anybody inflicts pain on purpose to another 1094 00:58:56.159 --> 00:58:59.119 living being, whether the human or not. And this is 1095 00:58:59.159 --> 00:58:59.639 not human. 1096 00:58:59.719 --> 00:59:01.679 But but now, but you just every. 1097 00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:03.840 Cell in my body is living. That doesn't make it human. 1098 00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:07.400 So I agree that it's not human. What is it? 1099 00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:09.920 It's a fetus. It's it's a potential humans on the 1100 00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:11.159 way to becoming human. 1101 00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:13.039 Just like a child, it's on the way to becoming 1102 00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:13.480 an adult. 1103 00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:16.000 No, a child is already human, and it's already separate 1104 00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:18.519 and already has its own mind, and it's already conscious, 1105 00:59:18.519 --> 00:59:20.920 and it's already doing a lot of things. It makes 1106 00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:21.639 it a human being. 1107 00:59:21.639 --> 00:59:25.639 I super appreciate you entertaining this go back and forward. 1108 00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:27.400 I would put too much on data. I think it's 1109 00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:30.960 it's it's it becomes a bit clear. I disagree. It's fine. 1110 00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:34.239 You obviously disagree with me. I don't think it's super consistent. 1111 00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:37.199 I think it lacks consistency on the fact that, then 1112 00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:40.760 why should I care about inflicting pain on something that 1113 00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:44.119 I don't even that tobute value at all. However, I 1114 00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:45.119 super appreciate you. 1115 00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:46.679 But I don't think. I don't think. I don't think 1116 00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:48.280 it's right to not that you reat value to it 1117 00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:50.400 at all. It's a potential human being. There's value that 1118 00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:53.119 every potential has a value. The question is how high 1119 00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:55.639 is that value and how important? If you weigh the 1120 00:59:55.719 --> 00:59:58.679 value of a of a fetus and again most of 1121 00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:01.679 them before twenty one weeks of a three month old 1122 01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:05.800 fetus versus the value of a woman who's going to 1123 01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:07.679 give up eighteen years of your life to take care 1124 01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:10.559 of it. To me, it's click cut who who you 1125 01:00:10.599 --> 01:00:11.039 side with. 1126 01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:13.480 Thank you, thank you for that, for clarifying that it's 1127 01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:19.400 really good. Can I test the pursuit of happiness value? 1128 01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:22.360 So imagine I'm a father, I am actually and I 1129 01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:25.079 do have two children. So imagine I decided to have 1130 01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:29.519 an amazing family, amazing wife, two kids. But then I say, 1131 01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:33.320 you know what, my pursuit of happiness requires me to 1132 01:00:33.400 --> 01:00:38.920 abandon my family. Now, my ultimate objective is to go 1133 01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:41.840 to somewhere else create I don't know, let's do something 1134 01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:45.320 virtues like a company, solve a lot of issues to people. 1135 01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:49.480 I could even create an organization that creates easiest way 1136 01:00:49.840 --> 01:00:53.440 for you imagine the most virtual stuff. But I would abandon, completely, 1137 01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:56.800 abandon my family. Would you say that's completely fine with objectivism. 1138 01:00:56.960 --> 01:01:00.480 No. And the reason is that when you have child, 1139 01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:03.280 and this is related to our previous conversation, when you 1140 01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:05.800 have a child, you're in a sense signing a contract. 1141 01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:09.960 So you could you could take take business. Right, Let's 1142 01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:13.800 say you sign a contract where you're going to, uh, 1143 01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:17.400 you're gonna you know, somebody's gonna invest in your business 1144 01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:21.519 and uh, you know you you just for ten years. 1145 01:01:21.920 --> 01:01:23.840 These are the terms, and this is all and let's say, 1146 01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:25.840 a year into it, you go, yeah, I don't feel 1147 01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:27.719 like doing this. I'm gonna go go go go in 1148 01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:31.159 an island interest. No, that's that's a that's. 1149 01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:33.360 A you know, you're you're beingoist. 1150 01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:38.079 You are you are violating something much more important, which 1151 01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:41.840 is your integrity. You're violating your your you know you've 1152 01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:46.679 made you've made commitments. So being an egoist means having integrity. 1153 01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:50.400 Being an egoist means being honest. That's what rationality means. 1154 01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:53.199 You cannot be rational and not be honest. You cannot 1155 01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:56.199 be a rational being and have no integrity. You cannot 1156 01:01:56.199 --> 01:01:59.039 be a rational being and not be productive. You can 1157 01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:03.960 be a rational being and live off other people, assuming 1158 01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:07.360 you're an adult. Right, So, once you have a child, 1159 01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:10.599 you basically signed an eighteen year contract to take care 1160 01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:13.599 of that child. Now, after eighteen years, you have no 1161 01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:16.840 obligation to in my view of sixteen or seventeen. Some 1162 01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:20.000 way along the line, you stop having obligations to your children, 1163 01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:24.159 and indeed your children have no obligations to you. Those 1164 01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:29.239 obligations anything beyond eighteen obligations that hopefully are created by 1165 01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:31.079 the fact that you've got a relationship and you like 1166 01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:34.760 hopefully love each other. But you know, not all parents 1167 01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:37.119 love their kids, and not all kids love their parents. 1168 01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:40.639 And yet they made a commitment, so eighteen years they're 1169 01:02:40.639 --> 01:02:42.480 stuck with it. This is why I'm so poor ebotion, 1170 01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:47.119 because don't get in, don't get into that commitment unless 1171 01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:49.159 you're one hundred percent sure you want to do it, 1172 01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:51.079 because otherwise you score up your life and you score 1173 01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:53.480 up your kids life, which is what happens to a 1174 01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:54.079 lot of people. 1175 01:02:54.440 --> 01:02:56.760 So what what would you say? Because you said in 1176 01:02:56.800 --> 01:02:59.719 the beginning, and there's something that objectivists say and the 1177 01:03:00.519 --> 01:03:03.320 I'm super thankful for you to entertaining this this type 1178 01:03:03.320 --> 01:03:07.039 of scenari don't you say because you said, we are 1179 01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:10.440 anti sacrificed. You should not be sacrificing to anybody other 1180 01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:11.079 than yourself. 1181 01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:14.400 But sometimes you are. Yeah, but yeah, but sometimes you 1182 01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:16.960 make mistakes in life, right, So sometimes you make a 1183 01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:20.719 mistake and uh, you know you you you have children 1184 01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:23.480 when you don't really want children, and you've. 1185 01:03:23.320 --> 01:03:26.119 Got to suffer the consequence of your mistake. Just like 1186 01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:30.960 just like my abortion point for me now, just. 1187 01:03:30.440 --> 01:03:33.400 Again, having an abortion, ask any woman who's had an 1188 01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:38.800 abortion is not costless, No, it isn't so well, no, 1189 01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:40.960 because because the woman has to go through a medical 1190 01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:45.480 procedure that's pretty unpleasant. And uh and and so so 1191 01:03:45.559 --> 01:03:48.280 she is suffering some consequences and the latest she waits, 1192 01:03:48.559 --> 01:03:52.719 the consequences are bigger. I was just but but the 1193 01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:55.760 point is that point is that it's not so. Sometimes 1194 01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:58.960 in life, you get you you invest in a stock 1195 01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:01.519 and it's in a goes down. You didn't intend it 1196 01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:04.079 to go down, but it goes down. You lose. Those 1197 01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:07.840 are the consequences of making bad decisions, or in this case, 1198 01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:10.000 it might not have been a bad decision. Things outside 1199 01:04:10.000 --> 01:04:15.000 of your control. You know. Sometimes you marry the wrong 1200 01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:20.480 person and you have to figure out how to separate. No, 1201 01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:24.280 you know, because if you marry the wrong person, that 1202 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:26.599 is a contract that's reversible. Having kids is not a 1203 01:04:26.639 --> 01:04:30.199 reversible contract. It is, So that's the difference. Some contracts 1204 01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:32.960 are reversible, some or not. When you make an obligation 1205 01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:34.880 to the bank to you take out a loan and 1206 01:04:34.920 --> 01:04:38.079 you have to pay ten payments of whatever, that's not reversible. 1207 01:04:38.119 --> 01:04:41.159 You have to make the payments. So even though you 1208 01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:44.840 now regret taking out the loan, the business didn't work out, 1209 01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:48.079 you have to continue and that's an issue of integrity, 1210 01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:53.000 and you're not going to be happy unless you stick 1211 01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:53.719 to your commitment. 1212 01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:56.719 That is, your happiness depends on your integrity. I can 1213 01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:59.039 tell you why I'm much much happier if I abundoned 1214 01:04:59.119 --> 01:05:01.760 my family. I can tell you that, No. 1215 01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:02.639 That's just not true. 1216 01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:05.760 I don't I don't believe you. I do not believe 1217 01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:07.679 I agree with you. I think you wouldn't be the case, 1218 01:05:07.719 --> 01:05:10.559 but I would. But people would make that. 1219 01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:12.679 Yes, But you see, almost all of those cases are 1220 01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:17.599 based in emotion, and objectivism against rejects arguments from emotion. Look, 1221 01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:22.760 objectivism holds that I said, be rational is the primary value, 1222 01:05:22.760 --> 01:05:26.360 but it has it has virtues, virtues that every human 1223 01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:29.599 being has to bide by if they want to be happy. 1224 01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:31.760 You're not going to be happy, you know. One of 1225 01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:35.000 the visues that might be controversial is unless unless you 1226 01:05:35.039 --> 01:05:38.159 have pride. Pride is one of the virtues that are 1227 01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:41.519 required in order to be happy, and pride means that 1228 01:05:41.559 --> 01:05:44.000 you take your life seriously. Pride is a commitment to 1229 01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:48.159 model excellence. Pride is a commitment to live the best 1230 01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:50.920 life based on them all principles that you can lead 1231 01:05:51.440 --> 01:05:54.519 and if you don't have that you, I don't think 1232 01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:55.599 you can achieve happiness. 1233 01:05:55.880 --> 01:05:58.119 I completely agree with what you said. What I was 1234 01:05:58.159 --> 01:06:01.840 trying to get at is that sense on when you 1235 01:06:01.880 --> 01:06:04.679 say we should not sacrifice for others. I think this 1236 01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:09.239 is clearly an example of you should be selfless in 1237 01:06:09.599 --> 01:06:12.519 the way that you take care of your children. You sacrifice. 1238 01:06:12.559 --> 01:06:16.159 Never be selfless. God, you're not selfless with your kids, 1239 01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:19.280 because I mean, you're not selfless with your kids, So. 1240 01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:20.760 So you certifice. 1241 01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:24.000 For them, you do not sacrifice. I never sacrifice my kids. 1242 01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:27.400 So if I stay, to give me an example of 1243 01:06:27.400 --> 01:06:28.639 a sacrifice you make for your. 1244 01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:31.840 Kids, have time, I don't think that I other. Okay, 1245 01:06:31.719 --> 01:06:34.679 so you could go to the movies and in my 1246 01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:37.519 business or even in my work, yeah, I know that 1247 01:06:37.599 --> 01:06:40.039 I would achieve more. I would have it mylf. You 1248 01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:41.119 do you sacrifice for that? 1249 01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:44.480 You do less at work? Because so what's more valuable 1250 01:06:44.480 --> 01:06:45.880 to you your children or your work? 1251 01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:46.960 Definitely my children. 1252 01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:50.320 Well, then how is it a sacrifice? You're training a 1253 01:06:50.320 --> 01:06:53.079 lower value your work for high value your children. So 1254 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:55.599 a sacrifice is when you give up a high value 1255 01:06:55.639 --> 01:06:57.920 and get nothing in return, or give or give up 1256 01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:00.599 a high value and get something of low value. In 1257 01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:02.599 the turn, or give up a high value and get 1258 01:07:02.719 --> 01:07:07.880 something in return in another life. You know, you know which, 1259 01:07:07.920 --> 01:07:12.039 which I don't think exists. Right. So if right here 1260 01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:15.320 on earth you are giving up something of low value 1261 01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:17.599 and getting something of high value, that's a trade. I 1262 01:07:17.639 --> 01:07:20.199 do that every single day. So I don't sacrifice my kids. 1263 01:07:20.199 --> 01:07:21.880 When I don't go to the movies and stay with them, 1264 01:07:21.960 --> 01:07:24.440 it's because they're most important, more important than than the movie. 1265 01:07:24.519 --> 01:07:26.880 If they're sick and I don't go to work because 1266 01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:28.559 I and I stay with them, it's because they're more 1267 01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.599 important than me going to work that day. So I 1268 01:07:31.639 --> 01:07:35.159 always have a higher key of values, and I strive 1269 01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:38.280 to always. You know, we can't do everything in life. 1270 01:07:38.599 --> 01:07:41.079 You can't do every single thing that you want, so 1271 01:07:41.119 --> 01:07:43.519 you always have trade offs. You want the trade off 1272 01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:46.559 to be higher, agree instead of low. So that's not 1273 01:07:46.599 --> 01:07:47.320 a sacrifice. 1274 01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:49.320 I agree with you in everything. 1275 01:07:48.920 --> 01:07:50.679 That's so, So you're not sacrificing. 1276 01:07:51.079 --> 01:07:53.559 However, in the example that I gave you, I would 1277 01:07:53.559 --> 01:07:57.159 be sacrificing because I don't put my kids up in 1278 01:07:57.199 --> 01:07:59.800 that hierarchy of values and I want to live, and 1279 01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:03.800 you're telling me that's immoral. You should stay, you should sacrifice. 1280 01:08:04.119 --> 01:08:09.079 I'm saying that your integrity, your moral virtues are right 1281 01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:11.119 at the top of your moral hierarchy of your high 1282 01:08:11.159 --> 01:08:15.000 k values. Otherwise you cannot achieve happiness. So the standard 1283 01:08:15.400 --> 01:08:19.640 of morality is your moral code. So once you've made 1284 01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:22.079 that commitment having your children, are going to take care 1285 01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:24.239 of them eighteen years and just abandonment. Now, I'm not 1286 01:08:24.279 --> 01:08:26.920 saying you shouldn't get a divorce and take care of 1287 01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:30.520 them in another way or but you have to. You've 1288 01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:32.720 made a commitment to your kids, and to some extent, 1289 01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:34.600 you made a committed to the wife. This is why 1290 01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:37.720 there's alimony and all these other things. So you financially 1291 01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:41.399 might support her, but you have to live up to 1292 01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:44.720 your commitments. That's called integrity, and that's a that's a 1293 01:08:44.800 --> 01:08:48.000 significant portion of that is at the top of the hierarchy. 1294 01:08:48.399 --> 01:08:50.199 Moral values is always at the top of the higher chary. 1295 01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:52.800 You're a good sport. Thanks a lot. Because I'm trying 1296 01:08:52.800 --> 01:08:55.520 to also connect with the public in portogh because they 1297 01:08:55.600 --> 01:08:57.680 think that oh, no, sacrifice is a good thing. 1298 01:08:57.880 --> 01:09:00.800 But see sacrifices losing that says. 1299 01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:03.199 I think there is a crack in the world. I 1300 01:09:03.199 --> 01:09:06.720 would say because if I don't value my family even 1301 01:09:06.760 --> 01:09:09.760 if I've done the previous commitment, that can change my mind. Right, 1302 01:09:10.000 --> 01:09:12.640 you're not opposed to changing my mind in terms of my. 1303 01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:16.159 Again, this is why studying a family is such a 1304 01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:18.279 big deal. And this is and it's a big deal. 1305 01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:20.439 It's not and I think you know, I'm not worried 1306 01:09:20.479 --> 01:09:22.800 about people not having a lot of kids, you know, 1307 01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:24.760 because I think a lot of people do a lousy 1308 01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:27.920 job with their kids and shouldn't have kids. So it's 1309 01:09:27.960 --> 01:09:31.039 a big deal having a family. It's a huge responsibility. 1310 01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:34.159 Make sure you're ready for it. Make sure you're with 1311 01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:36.560 the right partner for it. You know, I don't believe 1312 01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:39.279 you should have children a year after you get married. 1313 01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:42.840 You know, get married, live with a woman for five, six, 1314 01:09:42.920 --> 01:09:46.439 seven years, make sure you're compatible, make sure you work together, 1315 01:09:46.840 --> 01:09:49.800 and then have kids. Right. I know people who have 1316 01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:53.199 a bad marriage and to solve the conflict in the marriage, 1317 01:09:53.359 --> 01:09:56.319 they have kids. That it drives me crazy. It was 1318 01:09:56.439 --> 01:09:59.119 idea ever because the kids will just make that all 1319 01:09:59.159 --> 01:10:02.840 the challenges even was but but so yeah, I take 1320 01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:05.640 it very seriously. Your commitments in life are very serious. 1321 01:10:05.640 --> 01:10:07.560 If you say you're going to do a job, do 1322 01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:10.560 the job. If and here you said, I'm going to 1323 01:10:11.119 --> 01:10:13.479 do the job of taking care of these kids, then 1324 01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:17.680 do it. Uh and so so, Yes, it is sometimes 1325 01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:19.680 you have to make long term investments and you have 1326 01:10:19.720 --> 01:10:21.399 to you have to live up to those commitments. 1327 01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:23.800 Yeah, I agree, I agree, I agree with that. Can 1328 01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:27.199 we move on to a simple question. So and Wren 1329 01:10:27.399 --> 01:10:31.159 said that she liked Aristotles, right, Yeah, what she liked 1330 01:10:31.279 --> 01:10:33.119 about Aristotles. 1331 01:10:33.119 --> 01:10:35.720 I mean she liked she liked a lot about Aristotle. 1332 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:38.720 I mean she liked his emphasis on reality a is 1333 01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:40.880 a kind of the whole idea of reality is what 1334 01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:45.039 it is, and the identification of that. She liked. 1335 01:10:45.359 --> 01:10:48.319 Uh, she liked and ethics. I think that's true. 1336 01:10:48.600 --> 01:10:51.199 Yeah, I mean she she basically liked the ethics. The 1337 01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:54.960 standard of the ethics is individual human flourishing. She would 1338 01:10:54.960 --> 01:10:58.800 disagree with the particular virtues. She had different virtues, and 1339 01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:01.600 she comes at them very ferily than Aristotle does. But 1340 01:11:01.680 --> 01:11:05.760 she likes I mean, he's the only other philosopher, a 1341 01:11:05.880 --> 01:11:09.960 thinker who had an egoistic moral system. His system is 1342 01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:12.840 based on your own flourishing, and here are the ways 1343 01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:15.159 to get it. They disagree on the ways, but they 1344 01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:17.720 agree on the human flourishing as the standard you dominea, 1345 01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:22.199 happiness is the stand is what you strive towards. You know. 1346 01:11:22.279 --> 01:11:24.479 She liked the fact that he was the father of logic, 1347 01:11:25.239 --> 01:11:27.840 right and and really the father of science. He was 1348 01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:30.520 a scientist himself. Now, he wasn't a very good one 1349 01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:33.800 in a sense that a lot of his conclusions scientific 1350 01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:37.319 conclusions turned out to be wrong, but his methodology was right. 1351 01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:39.800 So the only way to correct Aristotle is to use 1352 01:11:39.840 --> 01:11:42.439 Aristotle's method to correct it. Look, he was the greatest 1353 01:11:42.439 --> 01:11:45.920 philosophy in all of human history. I think, you know, 1354 01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:49.079 almost all of the modern world that exists today is 1355 01:11:49.159 --> 01:11:53.119 due to Aristotle. Uh and and so yeah, I mean 1356 01:11:53.119 --> 01:11:56.359 she was she was the only he's the only philosopher 1357 01:11:56.560 --> 01:12:02.760 she really admired because of Zados. I mean, ideas were 1358 01:12:02.920 --> 01:12:04.760 I mean, there were flaws in them, but again, he 1359 01:12:04.760 --> 01:12:06.840 lived twenty five hundred years ago, so you'd expect that. 1360 01:12:07.199 --> 01:12:10.399 Would she disagree with him also on because he had 1361 01:12:10.439 --> 01:12:14.199 the mover argument for the existence of a deity right 1362 01:12:14.359 --> 01:12:15.279 existence of a god? 1363 01:12:15.479 --> 01:12:15.680 Yeah? 1364 01:12:16.520 --> 01:12:16.920 What did? 1365 01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:20.560 Would and Rand also disagree on Objectivists also disagree with 1366 01:12:20.600 --> 01:12:23.520 aristotles on that if to move something, there needs to 1367 01:12:23.560 --> 01:12:26.520 initiate movement, and there needs to but there's needs to 1368 01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:30.720 be someone that initially moves something in the universe is moving, 1369 01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:31.680 you know how it goes? 1370 01:12:31.720 --> 01:12:31.840 Right? 1371 01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:34.960 Yeah, I mean and and you know who initiated the initiator? 1372 01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:37.760 So this was my slik way of introducing religion. 1373 01:12:38.039 --> 01:12:42.159 Yes, so so who do you think who initiated the initiator? 1374 01:12:42.720 --> 01:12:44.479 You know, I don't think it's a particularly good argument, 1375 01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:47.920 but again, it's twenty five hundred years ago, you know. 1376 01:12:47.960 --> 01:12:52.239 I think Iman, you know, argued that religion was a 1377 01:12:52.279 --> 01:12:57.439 permittive form of philosophy. I think Aristotle is pretty advanced philosophy. 1378 01:12:57.439 --> 01:13:00.600 And that's why God plays such a small role in universe. 1379 01:13:00.600 --> 01:13:02.920 It just thoughts and then he walks away. He's not 1380 01:13:03.239 --> 01:13:09.680 a present God. So you know, I don't think I 1381 01:13:09.680 --> 01:13:12.000 don't think it stands up. His argument stands up to 1382 01:13:12.079 --> 01:13:16.800 logic and reality. But I'd rather take his argument for 1383 01:13:16.840 --> 01:13:19.600 the existence of God as something that moved it and 1384 01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:25.399 went away then conventional religions argument for ever present God 1385 01:13:25.720 --> 01:13:30.039 who intervenes in human affairs and who listens to our prayers. 1386 01:13:30.319 --> 01:13:33.880 Do you think it is at least or it has 1387 01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:38.359 been utilitarial and speaking like if you think purely as 1388 01:13:38.399 --> 01:13:42.119 a utilitarian, I think at least that has been Would 1389 01:13:42.159 --> 01:13:45.840 you recognize the utility of it to create those moral 1390 01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:49.920 codes that you say are essential for humans to flourish 1391 01:13:49.960 --> 01:13:51.520 with freedom within each other. 1392 01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:54.399 No, I think it's exactly the opposite. I think it's 1393 01:13:54.760 --> 01:13:57.039 I mean, in almost every realm, I think religion has 1394 01:13:57.079 --> 01:14:01.000 been a net negative for humanity, particularly i'd say over 1395 01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:05.880 the last two thousand years. Yes, I mean, what it 1396 01:14:05.960 --> 01:14:09.479 did is retard the ability to come up with rational, 1397 01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:12.199 objective moral codes. Because it's it. 1398 01:14:12.399 --> 01:14:15.840 Even if you're so, let's focus on European experience, because 1399 01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:19.000 otherwise I'm not just just your talk just about you. 1400 01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:22.479 Most of most of the philosophers of like the Dark 1401 01:14:22.520 --> 01:14:25.600 Ages and the Middle Ages are they are there. They 1402 01:14:25.600 --> 01:14:26.960 were all like priests, like. 1403 01:14:27.159 --> 01:14:30.199 Yeah, and they were terrible philosophers. They were really really bad, 1404 01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:33.199 with exception of a quietness. We'll get to good. Yeah, 1405 01:14:33.359 --> 01:14:35.680 well not really good. He was good, but we'll get 1406 01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:37.760 to why he was good. He was good in comparison 1407 01:14:37.840 --> 01:14:40.279 to everybody else, he was really good, but in terms 1408 01:14:40.319 --> 01:14:43.000 of objectively he was only good. And in comparison to Aristotle, 1409 01:14:43.880 --> 01:14:46.239 I mean, but so so the point is this imagine 1410 01:14:46.239 --> 01:14:48.359 a world and I know it's hard, but imagine a 1411 01:14:48.399 --> 01:14:53.319 world that where Christianity never rises. And who takes Aristotle seriously, 1412 01:14:53.840 --> 01:14:57.479 just Aristotle right takes Aristotilian philosophy and now says, okay, 1413 01:14:57.720 --> 01:15:00.159 let's work on this problem that he gave us how 1414 01:15:00.199 --> 01:15:04.119 to construct the best moral system, given you doming air, 1415 01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:07.479 given the need for human flowishing, I think we would 1416 01:15:07.479 --> 01:15:10.359 be a thousand years more advanced today than we all right, 1417 01:15:10.680 --> 01:15:13.880 I mean, that is an amazing world. You wouldn't have socialists, 1418 01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:16.680 you would't have communists. You know, you wouldn't have a 1419 01:15:16.720 --> 01:15:20.439 fascist because because you'd have built a moral system from 1420 01:15:20.479 --> 01:15:24.520 the beginning on a foundations of reason, on a foundation 1421 01:15:24.640 --> 01:15:28.960 of science, and a foundation on the best philosopher ever 1422 01:15:30.039 --> 01:15:33.880 was laying, which is a foundation of self interest. Instead, 1423 01:15:35.079 --> 01:15:37.079 and I don't want to I'm gonna say harsh things 1424 01:15:37.119 --> 01:15:40.319 about Christianity. I don't want to offend it. So instead 1425 01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:44.600 you get Jesus. Instead, you get a philosophy that says 1426 01:15:45.279 --> 01:15:50.640 that your idol, your hero, is somebody who died a 1427 01:15:50.680 --> 01:15:55.199 most horrific death, a really painful death. We really talk 1428 01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:58.880 about pain, right, A horrific death, not for his sins 1429 01:15:59.079 --> 01:16:01.600 that I could get under stand right, but for everybody 1430 01:16:01.600 --> 01:16:05.279 else's sins and in an act of ultimate sacrifice that 1431 01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:08.000 is horrific. That's the ma all ideal. So the mall 1432 01:16:08.039 --> 01:16:10.000 ideal now is for me to sacrifice the other people 1433 01:16:10.279 --> 01:16:12.960 the all ideal, and every saint, every saint that we 1434 01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:15.199 have in the list of saints, all give up their 1435 01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:17.880 lives for the sake of you know, other people. 1436 01:16:19.039 --> 01:16:22.000 Higher idea, but not a higher. 1437 01:16:21.760 --> 01:16:24.079 Idea that's connected to this world, the higher idea that's 1438 01:16:24.079 --> 01:16:26.720 connected to another world. Then none of us have any 1439 01:16:26.760 --> 01:16:29.800 evidence exists. All of it is about the other world. 1440 01:16:30.239 --> 01:16:34.319 So if you think about Aristotle, Aristotle believes in he 1441 01:16:34.359 --> 01:16:38.720 doesn't believe in sacrificing for another world. You know, he 1442 01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:41.479 doesn't believe in sacrificing for God. His God just set 1443 01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:43.760 the world of notion and it's gone. He doesn't believe 1444 01:16:43.760 --> 01:16:46.239 in sacrificing for other people. He believes in sort of 1445 01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:48.479 virtues that will get you. I disagree with some of 1446 01:16:48.520 --> 01:16:51.600 those virtues, but that's a see, that's an interesting conversation. 1447 01:16:51.640 --> 01:16:54.159 We can have a conversation once we agree that you 1448 01:16:54.239 --> 01:16:57.399 need virtues in or to achieve individual happiness, and that 1449 01:16:57.560 --> 01:16:59.920 this world is our standard we can now have an 1450 01:17:00.119 --> 01:17:04.239 a discussion about which virtues make sense, which virtues don't. Instead, 1451 01:17:04.720 --> 01:17:08.600 we have had two thousand years of discussing how to sacrifice, 1452 01:17:08.680 --> 01:17:11.439 who to sacrifice, to win, to sacrifice when it's not 1453 01:17:11.479 --> 01:17:14.920 good to sacrifice, and then what Thomas Aquinas does. Because 1454 01:17:14.960 --> 01:17:19.279 for a thousand years, up until Thomas Aquinas, Christianity was 1455 01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:22.600 almost exclusively and all the philosophers and all the monks 1456 01:17:22.600 --> 01:17:26.479 and exclusively focus on on on the other world. This 1457 01:17:26.560 --> 01:17:29.560 world sucked. It was horrible. It was terrible. You just 1458 01:17:29.640 --> 01:17:32.279 need to somehow survive it and you get to the 1459 01:17:32.319 --> 01:17:33.680 other world. And it was it did. 1460 01:17:33.720 --> 01:17:34.840 It really sucked at the time. 1461 01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:38.600 It did, and it did to a large example because Christianity, 1462 01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:40.600 I mean Christianity was the cause of the sucking. 1463 01:17:40.680 --> 01:17:43.159 It was more, it was more advents than other cultures 1464 01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:46.880 in Filago, for example, that the Church founded most of 1465 01:17:46.920 --> 01:17:47.760 the universities. 1466 01:17:47.760 --> 01:17:50.279 That no, I mean, I mean, I'm reading a lot 1467 01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:53.119 of history right now, so I'm writing a book, by 1468 01:17:53.159 --> 01:17:53.520 the way. 1469 01:17:53.479 --> 01:17:56.199 But didn't Church created most of the universities. 1470 01:17:56.079 --> 01:17:58.520 But late late in the Middle Ages, I mean. 1471 01:17:58.439 --> 01:17:59.920 There were no universities property. 1472 01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:02.359 But the universities in the beginning when they started, they 1473 01:18:02.399 --> 01:18:06.880 were universities. By the way, we're talking about Europe Kale right, Oh, no, 1474 01:18:06.920 --> 01:18:10.960 the scale was much larger. Baghdad was much larger than 1475 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:14.960 anything was done in the West. In Bukar, in Central Asia, 1476 01:18:15.159 --> 01:18:18.840 in India and China, there were universities on a scale 1477 01:18:18.960 --> 01:18:21.479 much bigger than anything that existed in the West. They 1478 01:18:21.520 --> 01:18:25.560 were richer, they were more prosperous, they were they were 1479 01:18:25.560 --> 01:18:28.880 more advanced scientifically in every respect in the West. The 1480 01:18:28.920 --> 01:18:32.439 West from the period of the rise of Christianity until 1481 01:18:32.760 --> 01:18:36.119 Thomas Aquinas and really until the Renaissance till fourteen hundred, 1482 01:18:36.439 --> 01:18:39.279 was a primitive society on a global scale. It was 1483 01:18:39.479 --> 01:18:43.159 way behind the Arabs, the Muslims, it was way behind 1484 01:18:43.199 --> 01:18:45.399 the Indians, and it was way behind the Chinese. I mean, 1485 01:18:45.680 --> 01:18:49.560 what does a magnitude behind, Right, It's only when Thomas 1486 01:18:49.640 --> 01:18:53.439 Aquinas does something miraculous instead of the focus on the 1487 01:18:53.520 --> 01:18:57.920 other world, which I think sustained Europe into poverty and 1488 01:18:58.800 --> 01:19:01.319 misery for a thousand years. By the way, in those 1489 01:19:01.319 --> 01:19:07.560 thousand years in Christendom, not a single astronomic observation was made. 1490 01:19:08.399 --> 01:19:11.359 Right now, for most of the Greeks and the Romans, 1491 01:19:11.399 --> 01:19:13.760 people will make astronomical observations all the time. And this 1492 01:19:13.840 --> 01:19:17.840 is just an indication of almost no science, almost nothing. 1493 01:19:18.199 --> 01:19:20.319 All the scientific achievements are happening in the Arab world, 1494 01:19:20.359 --> 01:19:22.680 in the Indian world, in the Chinese world. So then 1495 01:19:22.720 --> 01:19:26.079 the Quinas says, I've read Aristotle, and Aristotle puts a 1496 01:19:26.600 --> 01:19:30.720 huge emphasis on this world, on reality, unhappiness. Maybe we 1497 01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:34.319 need to integrate them. So he brings Aristotle in from 1498 01:19:34.319 --> 01:19:38.680 and then you start seeing progress. Then you start you 1499 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:42.079 get universities. Then, I mean the university started a little before, 1500 01:19:42.079 --> 01:19:44.680 but also from the discovery of Aristotle, the University of Paris. 1501 01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:47.159 They're getting the book where they're getting Aristota from from 1502 01:19:47.159 --> 01:19:50.560 the Arab libraries in Coldeba and Toledo. That the Christians 1503 01:19:50.600 --> 01:19:53.319 are concrete and they're taking those books and they're translating. 1504 01:19:53.319 --> 01:19:56.159 They read Aristotle not in Greek because they don't know Greek. 1505 01:19:56.439 --> 01:20:00.439 They read him in they translate the Arab transfer of 1506 01:20:00.479 --> 01:20:03.000 the original Greek into Latin. And that's how they read Aristotle. 1507 01:20:03.199 --> 01:20:07.560 Since the Arabs who save civilization as horrible as that 1508 01:20:07.680 --> 01:20:10.640 as I unimagine was that is given the Arab world today. 1509 01:20:10.920 --> 01:20:12.960 But it is interesting because what happens in the Arab 1510 01:20:12.960 --> 01:20:16.560 world is they have this amazing enlightenment in sense of 1511 01:20:16.560 --> 01:20:21.399 Renaissance enlightenment from eight hundred to twelve hundred, and it dies. 1512 01:20:21.439 --> 01:20:23.800 It dies for a couple of two reasons. One mongol 1513 01:20:23.840 --> 01:20:26.520 invasions kill a lot of them. But the second is 1514 01:20:27.079 --> 01:20:29.960 they start taking Islam seriously. And the more you take 1515 01:20:30.159 --> 01:20:35.680 religion seriously, the less progress science success there is the 1516 01:20:35.800 --> 01:20:38.920 more so. And that happened in the Christian world, that 1517 01:20:39.000 --> 01:20:42.279 happened in the Islamic world, it happens, it happens in 1518 01:20:42.279 --> 01:20:47.520 India with Buddhism and everywhere you go. When religion is primary, 1519 01:20:48.319 --> 01:20:51.680 then science and progress and human happiness and flourishing and 1520 01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:56.279 all of that goes down when religion is subsides and 1521 01:20:56.319 --> 01:20:59.479 you allow for these ideas to come up. And of 1522 01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:03.520 course the wealth that we have today is a product 1523 01:21:03.520 --> 01:21:06.239 of enlightenment. It's a product of a secular society. It's 1524 01:21:06.239 --> 01:21:08.000 not a product of religion. It's a it's an egagment 1525 01:21:08.039 --> 01:21:11.399 of religion. And again, just having moral values doesn't guarantee 1526 01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:14.840 feeder happiness. You need the right moral values, and I 1527 01:21:14.840 --> 01:21:18.119 think Christianity has the wrong moral values because it emphasizes 1528 01:21:18.199 --> 01:21:23.319 another world and it emphasizes wu based, an authority based system, 1529 01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:27.199 which also opens up human consciousness to authority. 1530 01:21:27.800 --> 01:21:31.319 Can I can I object to that? Examples? So for example, 1531 01:21:31.399 --> 01:21:34.159 you mentioned socialism and communism. I mean, everybody knows that 1532 01:21:34.279 --> 01:21:37.079 was an atheist movement. Everybody knows that. 1533 01:21:38.199 --> 01:21:39.239 But it's just not true. 1534 01:21:39.439 --> 01:21:41.680 So even called religion. 1535 01:21:42.000 --> 01:21:46.640 People, yes, even even what's his name, oh God, this 1536 01:21:46.680 --> 01:21:50.119 book called Dominion, which is which is a big, very 1537 01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:53.600 successful book. Even in Dominion, he knows and he realizes 1538 01:21:54.319 --> 01:21:57.720 that all marks does, and all that socialists do is 1539 01:21:57.720 --> 01:22:00.920 secularize Christianity. That is the fun mental thing that they do. 1540 01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:03.640 They take them all code of Christianity and they secularize it. 1541 01:22:03.840 --> 01:22:08.039 And indeed, if you look at the first communes, the 1542 01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:12.319 first socialist settlements in the in human history, they're all 1543 01:22:12.399 --> 01:22:18.279 Christian and and then the the the Church suppresses them 1544 01:22:18.600 --> 01:22:21.239 because it doesn't want its authority questioned and it doesn't 1545 01:22:21.319 --> 01:22:24.720 like this this stuff. But it's all based on someone 1546 01:22:24.760 --> 01:22:27.359 in the mound. It's all based on the ideas in 1547 01:22:27.399 --> 01:22:29.760 the Old Testiament, at least their interpretation of it. You 1548 01:22:29.800 --> 01:22:32.560 might have a different interpretation, and that's fine. It's one 1549 01:22:32.560 --> 01:22:36.560 of the beauties of of of of religious books. You 1550 01:22:36.560 --> 01:22:39.239 can find whatever the hell you want in them. You 1551 01:22:39.279 --> 01:22:41.600 bring your own philosophy to it, and you and you, 1552 01:22:41.239 --> 01:22:43.199 and you, you take from it what you want. But 1553 01:22:44.479 --> 01:22:48.319 you know, no socialism and and and and communism, of 1554 01:22:48.479 --> 01:22:52.640 all the trappings of religion. They have all the trappings 1555 01:22:52.640 --> 01:22:55.520 of a particular religion, Christianity. It's it's a it's a 1556 01:22:55.640 --> 01:22:59.119 very Christian, secularized Christian philosophy, and it's basically based on 1557 01:22:59.159 --> 01:23:01.640 idea of sacrifice. It's based on the idea of morality 1558 01:23:01.680 --> 01:23:05.039 that the individual doesn't matter. There's some higher being that 1559 01:23:05.560 --> 01:23:08.119 you should sacrifice too. And here they replace God with 1560 01:23:08.159 --> 01:23:11.039 the proletarian, and you should sacrifice to the proletarians they 1561 01:23:11.079 --> 01:23:14.479 replaced they replaced the pope with a with a dictator, 1562 01:23:14.800 --> 01:23:17.279 because you need somebody to commune with the spirit, you 1563 01:23:17.319 --> 01:23:21.720 need somebody to get revealed truth. And it's the exactly opposite. Yeah, 1564 01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:22.920 but it's exactly opposite. 1565 01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:26.159 People will inevitable create hierarchies of value, and they will 1566 01:23:26.159 --> 01:23:27.560 substitute all the things. 1567 01:23:27.720 --> 01:23:30.319 Yes, but the whole point is not to substitute God. 1568 01:23:30.640 --> 01:23:32.520 The whole point is to go by reason, to go 1569 01:23:32.560 --> 01:23:35.039 by rationality, and rationality is not a God. Reason is 1570 01:23:35.079 --> 01:23:38.640 not a god. Reason is a methodology, and the beauty 1571 01:23:38.640 --> 01:23:41.399 of the Enlightenment is that it doesn't. What it does 1572 01:23:41.520 --> 01:23:45.079 is it introduces reason. And what Marks does, in spite 1573 01:23:45.119 --> 01:23:48.680 of calling himself scientific, is you reject reason. He rejects 1574 01:23:48.680 --> 01:23:53.279 evidence that the communist reject reason, Fascism reject reason. So 1575 01:23:53.479 --> 01:23:55.920 all of these are the rejection of reasons I view, 1576 01:23:56.960 --> 01:24:03.880 I view anti reason ideologies, religion, communism, socialism, Marxism, they 1577 01:24:04.239 --> 01:24:08.399 have much more in common. What's new is the Enlightenment 1578 01:24:08.479 --> 01:24:11.359 and objectivism. Objectivism I view as a continuation of the 1579 01:24:11.399 --> 01:24:13.640 spirit of the Enlightenment, of the ideas of the Enlightenment 1580 01:24:14.199 --> 01:24:17.479 is pro reason, so anti reason, proism. That's the way 1581 01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:18.800 you should divide ideas up. 1582 01:24:19.119 --> 01:24:22.079 And you're probably very aware of the French Revolution. 1583 01:24:22.760 --> 01:24:26.359 Yeah, but the Frenchier evolution was motivated primarily Again, history matters. 1584 01:24:26.520 --> 01:24:29.680 The Frenier evolution is primarily motivated by the one thinker 1585 01:24:29.760 --> 01:24:33.680 in France who is anti Enlightenment, and that is Russau. 1586 01:24:34.279 --> 01:24:39.079 Russau writes his first major essay is an essay that says, but. 1587 01:24:39.039 --> 01:24:42.079 They use the same arguments, did they even substitute. 1588 01:24:42.600 --> 01:24:45.720 Is pro Yes? You know that right, yes? 1589 01:24:45.760 --> 01:24:48.560 And you know the consequence, yes, course. 1590 01:24:48.439 --> 01:24:53.279 But they're inspired. They're inspired not by the Enlightenment that 1591 01:24:53.279 --> 01:24:56.600 actually advocated for reason. They're inspired by Rousseau, who's a 1592 01:24:56.640 --> 01:24:59.840 bad guy, but he's the one who dominated why because 1593 01:24:59.840 --> 01:25:02.920 he the closest to Christianity. He was the closest of religions. 1594 01:25:03.000 --> 01:25:07.600 So when people were built, rejected Christianity, they even burned known. 1595 01:25:08.520 --> 01:25:10.720 But that's the beauty of it, right, The beauty of 1596 01:25:10.720 --> 01:25:14.239 it is that if you create a secular philosophy, it's 1597 01:25:14.399 --> 01:25:17.800 very similar to Christianity. You can be added Christian and 1598 01:25:17.840 --> 01:25:20.880 pretend that you're free of Christianity, but you're not because 1599 01:25:20.920 --> 01:25:23.800 it's so similar. The difference is the funding fathers, the 1600 01:25:23.880 --> 01:25:27.520 founding fathers, created a new system, not based on Christianity, 1601 01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:31.159 not connected, not based on Christianity. No individual rights. 1602 01:25:31.159 --> 01:25:33.520 It's given by God, right, I mean, it's there on. 1603 01:25:33.520 --> 01:25:38.039 The it's by by they create it exactly. So yeah, 1604 01:25:38.119 --> 01:25:40.640 but but but what kind of what kind of creator 1605 01:25:40.720 --> 01:25:44.199 is it? It's nature? It's Christian They were all English, 1606 01:25:44.359 --> 01:25:47.680 they were they were not Christian. They were deists. Most 1607 01:25:47.680 --> 01:25:50.560 of them were deists. Jefferson was a Deist. They were 1608 01:25:50.640 --> 01:25:55.800 very unconventional Christians. They viewed more. They viewed, Uh, Christianity 1609 01:25:55.960 --> 01:26:00.560 is as you know, they rejected all the miracles, right. 1610 01:26:01.319 --> 01:26:03.560 You know there's a Jeffersonian Bible where he cuts out 1611 01:26:03.600 --> 01:26:05.039 of the New Testament all the miracles. 1612 01:26:05.039 --> 01:26:05.720 I didn't know that. 1613 01:26:05.840 --> 01:26:08.119 Yeah, there's something called the Jeffersonian Bible. You can look 1614 01:26:08.119 --> 01:26:12.159 it up. It's really interesting. No, you know, they are 1615 01:26:12.159 --> 01:26:14.199 men of the Enlightenment. If you look at their libraries, 1616 01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:19.720 their libraries are dominated by Enlightenment writings, the Minutes of Science, 1617 01:26:19.720 --> 01:26:22.720 the Renaissance Man. Yeah, religion plays a role. They hadn't 1618 01:26:22.720 --> 01:26:27.720 completely rejected it yet, but it's a small role relative. 1619 01:26:27.760 --> 01:26:30.720 There's no The whole system of government that they create 1620 01:26:31.479 --> 01:26:34.119 is something that's created. It comes out of the writings 1621 01:26:34.119 --> 01:26:35.640 of Lacke, and it comes out of the writings of 1622 01:26:36.560 --> 01:26:39.520 Monusque and out of others. It's not something that they're 1623 01:26:39.560 --> 01:26:41.640 just taking from the Old Testament or the New Testament. 1624 01:26:41.960 --> 01:26:44.960 It's something that they create a new whereas the French 1625 01:26:45.000 --> 01:26:50.039 Revolution is very much in its values aligned with Christianity. 1626 01:26:50.359 --> 01:26:53.399 That's why, you know, and that's why it's so easy 1627 01:26:53.399 --> 01:26:56.000 to accept. That's why the masses just embrace it so quickly. 1628 01:26:56.359 --> 01:27:00.840 But you have to separate the Enlightenment from so is 1629 01:27:00.880 --> 01:27:03.439 the first anti Enlightenment philosopher, and he is the most 1630 01:27:03.439 --> 01:27:07.000 influential philosopher during the French life, during French Revolution, which 1631 01:27:07.039 --> 01:27:09.079 is the tragedy. The French Revolution could have been a 1632 01:27:09.079 --> 01:27:11.039 good thing if it had just gotten rid of the 1633 01:27:11.079 --> 01:27:13.880 king and they hadn't had all the bloodshed. But it 1634 01:27:13.920 --> 01:27:15.680 could have been. It could been. It could have mimicked 1635 01:27:15.680 --> 01:27:17.760 the American Revolution, and they chose not to mimic the 1636 01:27:17.760 --> 01:27:20.800 American Revolution and in that sense, to be an anti 1637 01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:24.039 Enlightenment phenomena instead of a po Enlightenment phenomena. 1638 01:27:24.359 --> 01:27:26.800 Yeah, awesome, and we will move to that. Let me 1639 01:27:26.920 --> 01:27:29.159 just do a final point on that. What about if 1640 01:27:29.159 --> 01:27:32.319 you look at today, So the secular world of today, 1641 01:27:32.520 --> 01:27:34.680 why don't you say that it's more idnistic. 1642 01:27:35.960 --> 01:27:38.119 I hate the secular world of today exactly, but I 1643 01:27:38.119 --> 01:27:40.399 also hate the religious world of today. So it's it's 1644 01:27:40.399 --> 01:27:42.840 a false economy, right to take there. 1645 01:27:43.000 --> 01:27:45.920 But it's the world without religion, and look at what 1646 01:27:46.039 --> 01:27:47.359 it brought to Yeah. 1647 01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:49.439 But you know, it's a world without religion, and yet 1648 01:27:49.479 --> 01:27:52.880 here we sit streaming all over the world that marginal 1649 01:27:52.920 --> 01:27:56.239 cost of zero this podcast. It's an amazing world that 1650 01:27:56.279 --> 01:28:01.800 we have because it's it's a non religious world. So yes, 1651 01:28:01.920 --> 01:28:05.000 I mean a lot of people lack values because they 1652 01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:08.399 haven't been introduced a prof of philosophy. And what we 1653 01:28:08.520 --> 01:28:11.880 need is to replace religion, not with nothing, not with 1654 01:28:11.920 --> 01:28:14.760 a void. I'm not arguing that we should all become 1655 01:28:14.800 --> 01:28:17.039 hedonists nihilists, which I think a lot of people become, 1656 01:28:17.880 --> 01:28:22.920 but replace religion with philosophy. And if we replace religion 1657 01:28:22.960 --> 01:28:25.760 with philosophy, then the world would as good as it is. 1658 01:28:25.800 --> 01:28:27.840 And I think it's pretty wonderful as it is in 1659 01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:30.600 spite of out all our negativity. It's pretty amazing that 1660 01:28:30.640 --> 01:28:32.119 we're sitting here and doing what we're doing. And I 1661 01:28:32.199 --> 01:28:36.000 flew here and everything. It could be so so so 1662 01:28:36.159 --> 01:28:38.239 much better and people would be so so much happier. 1663 01:28:38.520 --> 01:28:41.520 But for that, they don't need the cutch of religion. 1664 01:28:41.800 --> 01:28:43.479 What they need is a new philosophy. 1665 01:28:43.760 --> 01:28:45.920 Awesome, thanks a lot for clarifying that. Let's go to 1666 01:28:46.039 --> 01:28:53.039 some of the questions. Okay, okay, but are your favorite 1667 01:28:53.039 --> 01:28:58.920 thing then? So Mario Golmus says that religion has delayed 1668 01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:02.640 science for decade maybe centurists. Those are facts, he said, 1669 01:29:02.680 --> 01:29:05.520 So it's with you and the monol Bourgado says that 1670 01:29:06.479 --> 01:29:10.439 it can say what it wants, but the West wouldn't 1671 01:29:10.479 --> 01:29:12.560 be what it is today without Christianity. 1672 01:29:12.760 --> 01:29:15.359 Yeah, we wouldn't have socialism, we wouldn't have communism, we 1673 01:29:15.359 --> 01:29:16.600 wouldn't have all the bad elements. 1674 01:29:16.560 --> 01:29:19.119 Well, I think that's a bad example, right, because socialism 1675 01:29:19.239 --> 01:29:21.560 it's it's like an atheist movement. 1676 01:29:21.720 --> 01:29:23.319 But it couldn't be. 1677 01:29:24.079 --> 01:29:25.039 But it's not a good example. 1678 01:29:25.079 --> 01:29:27.000 First of all, it's not true because as I said, 1679 01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:31.479 the first the first socialist communities were Christian communities in 1680 01:29:31.479 --> 01:29:33.039 in the in the in the tenth century. 1681 01:29:33.199 --> 01:29:36.079 The first university is like in Europe or Catholic. But 1682 01:29:36.119 --> 01:29:38.119 again they were the biggest philosophers. 1683 01:29:38.199 --> 01:29:41.720 But you don't need you know, the universities came about 1684 01:29:41.760 --> 01:29:47.039 in spite of Catholicism, not because of Catholicism. They they weren't. 1685 01:29:47.279 --> 01:29:51.720 They weren't They weren't made possible by Catholicism. They somehow 1686 01:29:51.760 --> 01:29:55.039 achieved the success in spite of being in a Catholic world. 1687 01:29:55.279 --> 01:29:57.520 But they were. But I understand what he's saying, But 1688 01:29:57.560 --> 01:30:00.680 they were actually directly funded through the She's not like 1689 01:30:01.000 --> 01:30:04.520 they against the searching looks, let's just funded them. 1690 01:30:04.560 --> 01:30:08.359 I get that the church, the Church often acted against, 1691 01:30:08.880 --> 01:30:11.359 you know, certain of its interests, that then changed its mind. 1692 01:30:11.760 --> 01:30:15.039 So so you know, the church funded all the great 1693 01:30:15.119 --> 01:30:17.960 art in the Renaissance, and then Luther got pissed off 1694 01:30:17.960 --> 01:30:20.640 at that and among many other things, and started. So 1695 01:30:20.720 --> 01:30:23.199 there was a counter there was a counter reformation, and 1696 01:30:23.239 --> 01:30:24.680 you know, they went to the they went to the 1697 01:30:24.800 --> 01:30:33.000 Sistine Chapel and in Michelangelo's what do you call it? Uh? 1698 01:30:33.359 --> 01:30:36.399 When you be when the dead all rise? Uh? And 1699 01:30:36.399 --> 01:30:38.600 and and Jesus decide who goes to heaven hell? What 1700 01:30:38.640 --> 01:30:39.079 do you call that? 1701 01:30:39.840 --> 01:30:44.039 I don't know what he called that. When Jesus came 1702 01:30:44.880 --> 01:30:47.920 zus volta it's see the connect anyway, there's the. 1703 01:30:48.079 --> 01:30:53.079 Huge painting in the Sistine Chapel. There is and and 1704 01:30:53.079 --> 01:30:55.640 and the pope pope tells them to cover up all 1705 01:30:55.640 --> 01:30:59.039 the penises. Ye yep. Because the counter reformations they go 1706 01:30:59.079 --> 01:31:02.359 back and forth, right, they go back and forth during time. 1707 01:31:02.520 --> 01:31:08.000 But look, the reason universities were founded, the reason that 1708 01:31:08.119 --> 01:31:11.079 the Church, the Church did that is not because of Christianity. 1709 01:31:11.359 --> 01:31:16.359 It was because they were discovering all these secular writings 1710 01:31:16.399 --> 01:31:20.039 in these libraries. They were discovering in Spain of Aristotle 1711 01:31:20.520 --> 01:31:24.279 of the first doctors from Greece, the astronomers from Greece, 1712 01:31:24.319 --> 01:31:27.640 the scientists from Greece, and they needed to integrate this 1713 01:31:27.760 --> 01:31:31.760 material and they created universal universities for that. So it's 1714 01:31:31.800 --> 01:31:34.760 the discovery of a secular world. And when we look 1715 01:31:34.800 --> 01:31:36.920 at a secular world, you can look at Greece, you 1716 01:31:36.960 --> 01:31:39.279 can look at Rome as examples, rather than looking at 1717 01:31:39.720 --> 01:31:42.640 at socialism or communism. Those were just a secular and 1718 01:31:42.680 --> 01:31:47.399 in the Greece you could argue more and yeah, but 1719 01:31:47.560 --> 01:31:49.319 you know, gods that are running around among us and 1720 01:31:49.359 --> 01:31:51.319 having sex is not exactly. 1721 01:31:51.119 --> 01:31:54.560 It's not exactly religion. But let me just push back 1722 01:31:54.600 --> 01:31:57.520 a little bit because I've been reading Lock and even 1723 01:31:57.560 --> 01:32:00.159 some of the founders in the in the US are 1724 01:32:00.159 --> 01:32:04.159 always pretty adamant in terms of their inspiration on Christianity 1725 01:32:04.199 --> 01:32:07.000 to found our society. And even Lock himself he has 1726 01:32:07.159 --> 01:32:12.000 texts saying what I've written is not for the beast 1727 01:32:12.359 --> 01:32:14.680 Like atheists. He actually said. 1728 01:32:14.439 --> 01:32:17.880 That I know, I know, I know, but but but yes, 1729 01:32:17.960 --> 01:32:20.079 I know that, but but but look, you know, he 1730 01:32:20.159 --> 01:32:22.640 lived in the he lived in the early you know, 1731 01:32:22.680 --> 01:32:24.239 in the seventeenth century, in the late part of the 1732 01:32:24.279 --> 01:32:27.600 seventeenth century, you could not be religious at that point. 1733 01:32:27.680 --> 01:32:31.159 Everybody was. Everybody was crazy. Everybody no, no, he he 1734 01:32:31.199 --> 01:32:33.560 doesn't believe atheists have rights, and he doesn't really Catholics 1735 01:32:33.560 --> 01:32:35.840 have rights, by the way, so he says really nasty 1736 01:32:35.880 --> 01:32:36.760 things about Catholics. 1737 01:32:36.840 --> 01:32:37.560 That's true, and he. 1738 01:32:37.520 --> 01:32:41.039 Has to escape London and go to Amsterdam because the 1739 01:32:41.079 --> 01:32:44.439 Catholic king is coming. So look, I mean, Lucke is 1740 01:32:44.479 --> 01:32:46.880 not God right and and he's flawed. 1741 01:32:47.119 --> 01:32:49.119 And I say that because a lot of people. 1742 01:32:49.680 --> 01:32:54.520 But his logic is not derived from theology. His logic 1743 01:32:54.840 --> 01:32:56.199 is derived from reality. 1744 01:32:56.520 --> 01:32:58.359 He himself said it was I know. 1745 01:32:58.399 --> 01:32:59.319 But but it wasn't. 1746 01:32:59.600 --> 01:33:03.079 Yeah, and there was I was about to say something. Oh. 1747 01:33:03.279 --> 01:33:05.880 There is a book called Inventing the Individual. That's why 1748 01:33:05.960 --> 01:33:08.039 I say this, And I'm saying this for a point, 1749 01:33:08.079 --> 01:33:11.119 which is the eventual of the individual. That book argues actually, 1750 01:33:11.159 --> 01:33:13.520 and it goes to the history of the Church and 1751 01:33:13.560 --> 01:33:19.039 the history of Christianity, and it argues that actually the liberal, objectivists, 1752 01:33:19.039 --> 01:33:22.479 libertarian all those combination of values that combine with each 1753 01:33:22.479 --> 01:33:26.439 other to create the individual, and that sense, the egoistic 1754 01:33:26.520 --> 01:33:31.640 individual that should pursue its happiness actually derives from Christian believes. 1755 01:33:31.239 --> 01:33:35.119 That is that is a big reach because you know, 1756 01:33:35.159 --> 01:33:38.039 when Christianity dominates the no egoists and they know people 1757 01:33:38.039 --> 01:33:40.119 pursuing their values, what you get as the Dark Ages. 1758 01:33:40.479 --> 01:33:43.960 When Christianity wins, what you get is collectivism. You don't 1759 01:33:44.000 --> 01:33:48.319 get individualism, you know, and and the creation of the individual. 1760 01:33:48.720 --> 01:33:51.880 You know, you already have those ideas in Greece before 1761 01:33:53.159 --> 01:33:58.119 I'm on Greek philosophers, before the invention of Christianity. So 1762 01:33:58.119 --> 01:34:00.640 so no, I don't buy any of those argum. It's 1763 01:34:00.720 --> 01:34:03.840 like exposed people looking back and try to rationalize. If 1764 01:34:03.880 --> 01:34:07.159 you actually look at the history, it's very clear Western 1765 01:34:07.239 --> 01:34:13.000 civilization becomes civilized when it introduces Greek ideas, and the 1766 01:34:13.000 --> 01:34:17.479 more committed it is to religion, the less civilized it is. 1767 01:34:17.760 --> 01:34:20.840 The more committed it is to Greece, the more civilized 1768 01:34:20.880 --> 01:34:23.319 it is. So there's a direct relationship. So I've got 1769 01:34:23.359 --> 01:34:27.199 a book coming out. You might be interested. I mean, 1770 01:34:27.239 --> 01:34:30.199 it's I'm hoping to come out next year because we're 1771 01:34:30.199 --> 01:34:33.399 still writing it. But it's basically Christianity versus the West. 1772 01:34:33.880 --> 01:34:37.199 So my argument is Christianity is hampered West, and the 1773 01:34:37.239 --> 01:34:40.600 West not helped it. That it's it's held it back 1774 01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:44.000 and we'll compare with some of the other civilizations. This 1775 01:34:44.039 --> 01:34:45.319 is why I'm doing a lot of reading on this 1776 01:34:45.960 --> 01:34:48.760 with the other civilizations at the same time. But it's 1777 01:34:48.960 --> 01:34:51.079 it's pretty amazing what was going on, for example, in 1778 01:34:51.079 --> 01:34:55.319 Central Asia in the ninth and tenth century when there 1779 01:34:55.359 --> 01:34:56.680 was nothing going on in the West. 1780 01:34:57.439 --> 01:34:59.520 Thanks a lot, Thanks a lot for thinking and. 1781 01:35:00.479 --> 01:35:02.279 And I just want to say this, the reason it 1782 01:35:02.359 --> 01:35:04.800 was going on in Central Asia is because they were 1783 01:35:04.840 --> 01:35:08.359 translating the Greeks. So you know, they had all the 1784 01:35:08.600 --> 01:35:12.960 Aristotle's writings, that Plato, they had the other science, and 1785 01:35:13.000 --> 01:35:15.279 they worked they developed that. So even though they were 1786 01:35:15.319 --> 01:35:19.960 nominally Muslim, they you know, Islam was in the background, 1787 01:35:20.000 --> 01:35:23.399 and they focused on philosophy and science. Just like post 1788 01:35:23.399 --> 01:35:28.079 a Quinas, we kind of put religion Christianity a little 1789 01:35:28.079 --> 01:35:30.279 bit to the side and we focus on Aristotle and 1790 01:35:30.319 --> 01:35:33.520 the sciences and all this stuff. So every civilization that's 1791 01:35:33.560 --> 01:35:38.239 exposed to Greek ideas does well. 1792 01:35:38.119 --> 01:35:39.880 All right, Thanks a lot for explaining it. I think 1793 01:35:39.880 --> 01:35:42.479 it's pretty clear your your view, and that's what matters 1794 01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:42.800 the most. 1795 01:35:42.880 --> 01:35:44.680 Yes, you have more appreciate that. 1796 01:35:44.720 --> 01:35:46.000 I could finish off with. 1797 01:35:47.000 --> 01:35:50.239 There's a lot of religious opposition and I could tell that. 1798 01:35:50.439 --> 01:35:53.640 No, but it's it's it's because I knew that like abortion, 1799 01:35:53.920 --> 01:35:57.760 religion and all of those topics will give an interesting 1800 01:35:57.760 --> 01:36:01.000 conversation for you to actually explain your views. And I do. 1801 01:36:01.159 --> 01:36:03.960 I do disagree, and I think that's obvious. But but 1802 01:36:04.039 --> 01:36:13.800 it's good. Another question, says Manuel, Uh, a Christian society 1803 01:36:14.399 --> 01:36:20.079 can resist better to invasion of Muslims, for example, which 1804 01:36:20.119 --> 01:36:23.880 is happening right now, to a secular society. 1805 01:36:25.800 --> 01:36:28.680 I think that's absolutely not the case. It's it's, uh, 1806 01:36:29.039 --> 01:36:32.560 you know, a secular society. Again, what secular society? Secular 1807 01:36:32.600 --> 01:36:35.479 means nothing, right, So what secular society and objective is? 1808 01:36:35.560 --> 01:36:39.840 Second that Europe is a very secular organized society right now? 1809 01:36:39.920 --> 01:36:43.800 Right, I mean yeah, but but it's but secular without 1810 01:36:43.880 --> 01:36:46.079 values is not a value to me. Right. I'm not 1811 01:36:46.199 --> 01:36:50.199 defending I'm not defending a Europe as a stance today 1812 01:36:50.319 --> 01:36:52.640 versus some Christian ideal I think. 1813 01:36:52.720 --> 01:36:55.560 Christian idea, right, I mean we organized around the Crusades, 1814 01:36:55.680 --> 01:36:57.279 I mean Portugal was born that way. 1815 01:36:57.680 --> 01:37:00.920 No, I know. And the first people, you know, who 1816 01:37:00.920 --> 01:37:02.840 are the first people you killed out you killed during 1817 01:37:02.840 --> 01:37:07.279 the Crusades, Who were the first Muslims? No, first people 1818 01:37:07.319 --> 01:37:08.920 you killed in the crusade. Read up in the first 1819 01:37:08.960 --> 01:37:12.439 crusade with the Jews. So the crusade starts in northern 1820 01:37:12.439 --> 01:37:15.319 Germany and northern France and northern Germany. They sweep down 1821 01:37:15.319 --> 01:37:17.640 in Germany, they killed any Jew they find, They kill 1822 01:37:17.680 --> 01:37:21.279 whole communities. They slaughtered them all way before they reached 1823 01:37:21.840 --> 01:37:25.760 they reached the Middle East. So it was bar Babic Christianity. 1824 01:37:25.760 --> 01:37:28.600 It has been in its history of bar Barbic religion, 1825 01:37:29.000 --> 01:37:31.439 and it it you know, it went to war with 1826 01:37:31.479 --> 01:37:35.119 the Muslims over something that was irrelevant. What was irrelevance 1827 01:37:35.159 --> 01:37:38.279 to a peasant in France who wouled Jusalem? What a 1828 01:37:38.359 --> 01:37:39.880 stupid War's engaging. 1829 01:37:39.560 --> 01:37:42.279 Not only about that, right, because all of the most 1830 01:37:42.319 --> 01:37:44.720 of the Middle Easts, in that part which is now 1831 01:37:45.039 --> 01:37:48.880 I mean Israel, it was a Byzantine empire, was Bristian, right, 1832 01:37:48.880 --> 01:37:52.560 so they were defending the invasion of in Christian territory. 1833 01:37:52.680 --> 01:37:56.560 There became an attacks on non prior Christian lens. 1834 01:37:56.680 --> 01:37:59.319 There was never a well, there was all the time, right, 1835 01:37:59.640 --> 01:38:02.439 I mean, much of the crusades were in Scandinavia, which 1836 01:38:02.439 --> 01:38:05.199 were pagan countries, and there was an attack there to 1837 01:38:05.199 --> 01:38:08.920 convert them into Christianity. Most of Europe was Christianized by 1838 01:38:08.920 --> 01:38:15.920 the sword, and through through you know, Constantine, post Constantine 1839 01:38:15.920 --> 01:38:19.479 to own Empire expans Christianity throughout Europe by the sword. 1840 01:38:19.840 --> 01:38:23.079 So so no, you know, I think that the best 1841 01:38:23.119 --> 01:38:27.880 way to combat the kombat Islam is with a with 1842 01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:31.880 a secular ideology that's based on reason. And believe me 1843 01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:35.720 that my views, if people had listened to me after 1844 01:38:35.800 --> 01:38:38.399 nine to eleven, or even before nine to eleven, then 1845 01:38:38.399 --> 01:38:42.239 we would not have an Islamic problem right now. So again, 1846 01:38:42.399 --> 01:38:47.439 I don't sympathize with everybody who says I'm secular. I mean, 1847 01:38:47.560 --> 01:38:51.560 obviously communists and socialist are my enemies on ninety nine 1848 01:38:51.560 --> 01:38:53.479 percent of the stuff. Just because they say they're secular 1849 01:38:53.520 --> 01:38:55.760 doesn't mean anything to me, doesn't make them my allies. 1850 01:38:56.079 --> 01:38:58.960 I have a particular philosophy, This is the point. And 1851 01:38:59.399 --> 01:39:02.399 Christianity it doesn't know how to deal with Islam and 1852 01:39:02.680 --> 01:39:05.560 UH and the secular world does it does the secular 1853 01:39:05.680 --> 01:39:07.079 it doesn't. It doesn't know how to deal with the 1854 01:39:07.119 --> 01:39:10.039 slamp and and what it will lead to is religious wars, 1855 01:39:10.039 --> 01:39:12.760 which is not what we need. What we need is 1856 01:39:12.760 --> 01:39:14.319 the deal with the Slam and the deal with the 1857 01:39:14.359 --> 01:39:16.399 Slam through reason, and then the stand Islam is a 1858 01:39:16.439 --> 01:39:19.159 religion and why it's an enemy of the West, and 1859 01:39:19.199 --> 01:39:21.239 how to deal with it as an enemy. 1860 01:39:21.399 --> 01:39:24.960 For example, maybe I'm creating a false picture, but I 1861 01:39:24.960 --> 01:39:28.399 don't think I am, Which is, if you are. If 1862 01:39:28.520 --> 01:39:32.960 if Islam looks at the Christian world as infidels and 1863 01:39:33.000 --> 01:39:36.319 they want to create a world in which they are 1864 01:39:36.359 --> 01:39:39.239 not here and they convert to Islam, they are using 1865 01:39:39.279 --> 01:39:41.479 the sword. So it's I mean, it's self defense that 1866 01:39:41.520 --> 01:39:43.920 you would use the sort back, and that's I think. 1867 01:39:44.039 --> 01:39:46.279 I'm all for using swords back. I have no problem 1868 01:39:46.319 --> 01:39:46.479 with you. 1869 01:39:46.520 --> 01:39:49.199 I think that's that's Manuel's point, which is, Look, I've 1870 01:39:49.359 --> 01:39:53.479 looked at history and I seen Christians coming up together 1871 01:39:53.920 --> 01:39:57.119 around the same values and combating Islam. Yes, but what 1872 01:39:57.239 --> 01:40:00.159 would I don't think you like, but what another religion? Yes? 1873 01:40:00.239 --> 01:40:04.560 But what world were they defending? It was a Christian world, yes, 1874 01:40:04.600 --> 01:40:11.640 and thus primitive, barbaric violence and unfree. So you cannot 1875 01:40:11.720 --> 01:40:15.960 have a Christian world uniting to fight Islam and have freedom. 1876 01:40:16.439 --> 01:40:19.760 The Christianity and freedom are not compatible, and particularly not 1877 01:40:19.760 --> 01:40:21.239 compatible when it's going to go to war. 1878 01:40:21.479 --> 01:40:24.479 Now, now, what are the nations that are most free, 1879 01:40:25.039 --> 01:40:27.159 they all left Christian backgrounds. 1880 01:40:26.840 --> 01:40:28.880 In the world secular today. They've all they've all mean 1881 01:40:28.920 --> 01:40:30.439 secular since they became free. 1882 01:40:30.479 --> 01:40:36.239 But you don't think there's an underlying contamination effect on everything. 1883 01:40:36.920 --> 01:40:39.680 Every single one of the free countries. Japan is not 1884 01:40:39.720 --> 01:40:42.079 a Christian country, and it's a it's a it's a 1885 01:40:42.239 --> 01:40:46.079 it's a free country relatively speaking, right, South Korea, Taiwan, 1886 01:40:46.359 --> 01:40:48.079 Hong Kong, Singapore. 1887 01:40:47.640 --> 01:40:50.039 Korea was influenced by the US to be a free country. 1888 01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:52.000 Yeah, all of these countries were influenced by the US 1889 01:40:52.039 --> 01:40:55.640 and all and the US was influenced by the Enlightenment 1890 01:40:56.079 --> 01:40:59.039 to be a free country, by the secular Enlightenment to 1891 01:40:59.039 --> 01:41:02.000 be a free country. And again, Jefferson read, you know, 1892 01:41:02.039 --> 01:41:05.479 the founders of America read a lot more of the 1893 01:41:05.600 --> 01:41:10.720 secular Enlightenment than they did of theological debates about how 1894 01:41:10.720 --> 01:41:13.199 many how many Angels that and I have a needle. 1895 01:41:13.439 --> 01:41:17.600 So so the America is a secular country. And the 1896 01:41:17.600 --> 01:41:21.279 freedom that America enjoyed is a product of its secular nature, 1897 01:41:21.439 --> 01:41:24.680 not of its religious nature. And coming together on the 1898 01:41:24.760 --> 01:41:28.880 false ideology which I think Christianity is is not helpful. 1899 01:41:29.159 --> 01:41:32.039 So in order to combat Islam. You need to think 1900 01:41:32.439 --> 01:41:34.079 and you need to figure out how to defeat them. 1901 01:41:34.119 --> 01:41:36.399 It's not that hard because they're pretty weak and pretty 1902 01:41:36.399 --> 01:41:38.600 barbaric and pretty primitive. So it's not it not hard 1903 01:41:38.640 --> 01:41:40.159 to defeat is Slam. 1904 01:41:40.319 --> 01:41:42.840 And but they're winning rounds in Europe. I think that's 1905 01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:43.640 Manuel's point. 1906 01:41:43.680 --> 01:41:44.840 Oh, I agree that they're winning. 1907 01:41:44.880 --> 01:41:49.000 But that and n say about this migration problem in Europe. 1908 01:41:48.720 --> 01:41:50.079 I don't know what I mean would say. I'll tell 1909 01:41:50.079 --> 01:41:52.199 you what I would say, because men did not have 1910 01:41:52.239 --> 01:41:58.000 this problem. You know, Islam, the Islamic world has a 1911 01:41:58.000 --> 01:42:03.840 real problem of fundamentalists, religious fundamentalists, Islamism, Islamic radicals, however 1912 01:42:03.840 --> 01:42:06.840 you want to call it, Islamic totalitians who believe that 1913 01:42:06.880 --> 01:42:09.319 God has given them the world and they will dominate 1914 01:42:09.359 --> 01:42:11.600 the world, and they should rule over the world, and 1915 01:42:11.640 --> 01:42:14.359 they will use force in order to gain that. The 1916 01:42:14.399 --> 01:42:17.720 West has to recognize that. First step one, recognize that fact. 1917 01:42:17.760 --> 01:42:20.760 Step two, identify that it's a real threat, and declare 1918 01:42:20.800 --> 01:42:24.119 war on it. So after nine to eleven, George Bush, 1919 01:42:24.159 --> 01:42:27.039 a good Christian, I called Islam a religion of peace 1920 01:42:27.279 --> 01:42:29.520 and celebraated the Ramadan. On October two. 1921 01:42:29.399 --> 01:42:31.680 Thousand and one in two. 1922 01:42:31.600 --> 01:42:34.640 Thousand and one. Yes, in the White House Ramadan October, 1923 01:42:34.680 --> 01:42:37.199 a month after nine to eleven, the Ramadan was celebated. 1924 01:42:37.319 --> 01:42:40.520 Now that is unbelievably Christian, turn the other cheek, love 1925 01:42:40.560 --> 01:42:45.159 your enemy like you do, and horrifically anti objectivist, an 1926 01:42:45.159 --> 01:42:48.399 anti reason and anti rationality. I said at the time, 1927 01:42:48.800 --> 01:42:53.800 declare war and crush them. Any make a list of 1928 01:42:53.840 --> 01:42:59.720 every organization and every state that adheres to Islamic fundamentalism. 1929 01:43:00.039 --> 01:43:02.479 That would be al Qaeda, obviously al Kaida, you know 1930 01:43:02.520 --> 01:43:06.760 today isis ramas Chris Bala, islami Jihad, the Muslim brotherhood 1931 01:43:06.920 --> 01:43:07.960 which is behind all of this. 1932 01:43:08.439 --> 01:43:11.920 Iran not Iraq was a secular country. 1933 01:43:11.960 --> 01:43:13.760 Who cared? I mean, the guy was a monster, but 1934 01:43:13.800 --> 01:43:16.960 he didn't you know, he wasn't spending terrorism around the world. 1935 01:43:16.960 --> 01:43:19.159 Who did? I won, So you won should have been 1936 01:43:19.199 --> 01:43:23.800 the target. So if you understand who the enemy is Islamic, 1937 01:43:24.239 --> 01:43:27.920 this Islamist ideology, then you can have a proper list 1938 01:43:27.960 --> 01:43:32.159 of enemies. And it's not oh, it's a it's a 1939 01:43:32.199 --> 01:43:35.199 religious world. We have to push back on Muslims because 1940 01:43:35.399 --> 01:43:37.880 some Muslim countries are not your enemy, but some are 1941 01:43:37.880 --> 01:43:42.840 really your enemy. Iran is an enemy and destroy them 1942 01:43:42.920 --> 01:43:45.279 and then we all over and we could have destroyed 1943 01:43:45.279 --> 01:43:48.239 them in a maunt of weeks months. 1944 01:43:49.479 --> 01:43:51.760 So what the advice would you give for us that 1945 01:43:51.800 --> 01:43:53.359 are struggling in Portugal. We are struggling a. 1946 01:43:53.359 --> 01:43:57.920 Long claar war on Islamic on the Islamist not Islam, 1947 01:43:58.079 --> 01:44:01.119 on the Islamist ideology. So make it so that you 1948 01:44:01.119 --> 01:44:04.520 can kick them out and and and and and you know, 1949 01:44:04.560 --> 01:44:07.800 if they're preachers out there, preaching Sharia and preaching the 1950 01:44:07.880 --> 01:44:11.000 destruction of Western civilization, send them packing. 1951 01:44:11.359 --> 01:44:16.319 I agree. Okay, let's move on. If Islam was a 1952 01:44:16.399 --> 01:44:21.840 religion of peace, the Islamic extremists would be extremely peaceful. 1953 01:44:22.359 --> 01:44:23.840 That's for sure a good point. 1954 01:44:24.520 --> 01:44:26.920 Well, there is no such thing as a religion apeace. 1955 01:44:27.000 --> 01:44:29.039 That is a contradiction in terms. There's never been a 1956 01:44:29.079 --> 01:44:33.199 religion of peace. Again, Christianity christianized Europe by the sword, 1957 01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:38.800 and not against Muslims, against Pagans and against Jews. Yeah, 1958 01:44:39.079 --> 01:44:42.159 I mean, this is the combination of Rome and Christianity, right, 1959 01:44:42.640 --> 01:44:46.119 and and Augustine, Augustine who is one of the fathers 1960 01:44:46.119 --> 01:44:50.279 of the Church. Augustine has whole writings about the morality 1961 01:44:50.279 --> 01:44:53.880 of war, and in order to justify when is war 1962 01:44:54.039 --> 01:44:59.439 justified was only justified to convert somebody to Christianity, So 1963 01:44:59.800 --> 01:45:03.319 was ali fied for good? Good defined by Christianity. And 1964 01:45:03.319 --> 01:45:07.600 this is my point about force. Everybody. Everybody agrees force 1965 01:45:07.720 --> 01:45:10.600 is okay if it's for the right cause. Augustine, who 1966 01:45:10.680 --> 01:45:14.720 defined Christian morality with regard to violence, said violence is 1967 01:45:14.760 --> 01:45:17.000 okay if it promotes Christianity. 1968 01:45:17.079 --> 01:45:21.760 Yeah, but sorry, guys, if I'm taking a while to translate, 1969 01:45:21.800 --> 01:45:23.920 because you guys write in Portuguese and I have to 1970 01:45:23.920 --> 01:45:26.239 translate in my hand. And by the way, that noise. 1971 01:45:25.960 --> 01:45:30.479 You're hearing is it's pouring wain hopefully, I don't know 1972 01:45:30.520 --> 01:45:32.239 if you're hearing, we're hearing it. 1973 01:45:33.880 --> 01:45:36.920 What's other questions, Odrico, can you scroll a bit so 1974 01:45:37.000 --> 01:45:38.760 I can see a little bit more questions? Do we 1975 01:45:38.840 --> 01:45:44.119 need to leave, Miguel, Yeah, we will finish, finish right away. 1976 01:45:44.319 --> 01:45:46.800 So let's see if there's any last question and we'll 1977 01:45:46.880 --> 01:45:48.000 just finish. 1978 01:45:48.439 --> 01:45:48.560 Uh. 1979 01:45:51.760 --> 01:45:56.479 It's the same people's using the correct term fundamentalist Islam, 1980 01:45:56.680 --> 01:46:01.000 meaning it's how Islam was funded. That's true violence, force, 1981 01:46:01.239 --> 01:46:01.720 et cetera. 1982 01:46:02.840 --> 01:46:05.119 Yeah, I mean, I mean it's interesting how the different 1983 01:46:05.119 --> 01:46:08.119 religions were founded. Islamos founded and this is what gives 1984 01:46:08.159 --> 01:46:14.359 them the I don't know, the the gall if you 1985 01:46:14.399 --> 01:46:16.680 will to go out and try to try to dominate 1986 01:46:16.680 --> 01:46:19.359 the world. They were founded by a warrior, by a 1987 01:46:19.439 --> 01:46:24.199 warrior trader. Uh, you know. And and and Christianity was 1988 01:46:24.199 --> 01:46:28.199 founded by you know, somebody was crucified. 1989 01:46:29.159 --> 01:46:31.199 A peaceful guy. Right, they never heard anybody. 1990 01:46:31.439 --> 01:46:35.640 Yeah, peaceful, but I'd say week week and uh suffering 1991 01:46:36.039 --> 01:46:39.600 and uh and failed right as a as an individual, 1992 01:46:39.600 --> 01:46:42.159 he never saw his success. If if you think as 1993 01:46:42.159 --> 01:46:44.680 a man, if you think he was successful, what happened 1994 01:46:44.720 --> 01:46:48.439 you're successful? Well after his death. Muhammad was successful in 1995 01:46:48.479 --> 01:46:50.960 his life. But but that tells you something about the 1996 01:46:51.000 --> 01:46:54.159 attitude of both religions. Right, Muhammad was successful during his life, 1997 01:46:54.800 --> 01:46:57.920 the whole plot he was. I mean he conquered lands, 1998 01:46:58.319 --> 01:47:01.119 but he conquered lands, I mean successful in in those 1999 01:47:01.159 --> 01:47:01.600 kinds of times. 2000 01:47:01.640 --> 01:47:06.000 I think Jesus being being being murdered by the Romans 2001 01:47:06.039 --> 01:47:06.840 and the and. 2002 01:47:06.760 --> 01:47:08.760 That it makes it makes it good. 2003 01:47:09.000 --> 01:47:11.000 That was that was the plan. It was not like 2004 01:47:11.159 --> 01:47:14.640 it was successful on this plan. It was actually the plan. 2005 01:47:14.800 --> 01:47:17.359 It's not his plan, you know. I I don't think 2006 01:47:17.520 --> 01:47:19.359 that was I don't think he was a plan you know, 2007 01:47:19.439 --> 01:47:22.479 I think le Yeah, he had the masses with Jesus 2008 01:47:22.640 --> 01:47:26.479 a certain point. No, he had he Christian. He doesn't 2009 01:47:26.479 --> 01:47:31.560 really gain any it doesn't gain numbers and cloud or 2010 01:47:31.560 --> 01:47:35.279 anything until Constantine. You know, it brings it into the 2011 01:47:35.439 --> 01:47:39.319 Roman Empire. That's when it really starts taking off. And 2012 01:47:39.319 --> 01:47:41.119 and then it's using the soul to conflot people. 2013 01:47:42.399 --> 01:47:44.279 Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. 2014 01:47:44.520 --> 01:47:44.840 Pleasure. 2015 01:47:44.880 --> 01:47:47.439 Are really a good fun guy to discuss a lot 2016 01:47:47.439 --> 01:47:48.399 of topics. 2017 01:47:47.960 --> 01:47:48.920 With sounds good. 2018 01:47:50.279 --> 01:47:53.000 How okay, what do you need? It's in what's up? 2019 01:47:53.119 --> 01:48:00.560 Or yeah, I will I will, uh, yes, okay, yes, 2020 01:48:00.600 --> 01:48:05.560 of course. Okay, guys there at home, if somebody is 2021 01:48:05.640 --> 01:48:11.560 interested in her hearing more about what we are discussing here. 2022 01:48:11.680 --> 01:48:15.520 There's going to be extra conferences and events. There was 2023 01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:19.439 one yesterday. It's already recorded and available in YouTube because 2024 01:48:19.439 --> 01:48:22.560 I saw it. There's going to be uh in a 2025 01:48:22.600 --> 01:48:25.640 conference in the seventeen and nineteen of April. Is that 2026 01:48:25.720 --> 01:48:30.359 it in the next year, And there is a group. 2027 01:48:32.439 --> 01:48:37.680 Called CON's it's an in conference in Porto. Uh it's 2028 01:48:37.720 --> 01:48:40.079 we do want to year? Is that? No, we do 2029 01:48:40.119 --> 01:48:41.720 any year in Europe? But it is the first time 2030 01:48:41.720 --> 01:48:44.439 it's in Porto. First time it's in Portugal, so that 2031 01:48:44.640 --> 01:48:46.479 we'll be being speaking a number of speakers from the 2032 01:48:46.600 --> 01:48:51.520 US and so yeah, people should should should go check 2033 01:48:51.560 --> 01:48:55.079 it out online and uh hope to see a lot 2034 01:48:55.119 --> 01:48:57.600 of a lot of people from Portugal at the conference 2035 01:48:57.800 --> 01:48:59.640 if we can will be there, Yeah, that'd be great, 2036 01:49:00.159 --> 01:49:00.640 beret to go. 2037 01:49:01.479 --> 01:49:04.399 There is also a group of Objectivists in Portugal. If 2038 01:49:04.439 --> 01:49:09.720 people want to join what is the group called objectives 2039 01:49:09.720 --> 01:49:17.319 in Portugal? Where where can they find them? Okay, get 2040 01:49:17.359 --> 01:49:20.600 in touch with with with us comment down below and 2041 01:49:21.039 --> 01:49:23.319 we will comment where you can find I guess there 2042 01:49:23.319 --> 01:49:26.079 are groups Discord, Instagram, whatever, there are groups that you 2043 01:49:26.119 --> 01:49:26.520 can join. 2044 01:49:26.880 --> 01:49:29.279 And there is an event on Thursday, so the day 2045 01:49:29.319 --> 01:49:32.199 after tomorrow this since this is live, there's an event 2046 01:49:32.239 --> 01:49:36.840 in Lisbon on Thursday with a pretty pretty famous people 2047 01:49:36.840 --> 01:49:44.520 who's will be there in Carlous. It's called in the 2048 01:49:44.520 --> 01:49:45.399 morality of Capitalism. 2049 01:49:45.479 --> 01:49:48.520 That's that's a good topic we would not disagree on. 2050 01:49:48.640 --> 01:49:51.199 Yeah, so you can you can, well we will disagree 2051 01:49:51.199 --> 01:49:52.680 on what the morality is, but. 2052 01:49:53.800 --> 01:49:56.479 Maybe not, maybe not, we don't know. Thank you so much. 2053 01:49:56.680 --> 01:49:59.600 Is there a pleasure any extra last message you want 2054 01:49:59.640 --> 01:50:00.600 to give before we. 2055 01:50:00.800 --> 01:50:03.399 I mean, people should check out my podcast You run 2056 01:50:03.439 --> 01:50:06.239 book show. You can find it on YouTube pretty easily. 2057 01:50:07.279 --> 01:50:10.039 You on bookshow dot com is the website and if 2058 01:50:10.039 --> 01:50:13.159 you're interested in iron Rand go read some minevent. I 2059 01:50:13.199 --> 01:50:15.600 think everybody will benefit from it, whether you agree or 2060 01:50:15.840 --> 01:50:18.600 not agree. In the end, read at less the Fountain 2061 01:50:18.640 --> 01:50:21.920 at read the Virtue of Selfishness, provocative title or capitalism 2062 01:50:22.000 --> 01:50:26.199 not known ideal. These are good and you can check 2063 01:50:26.199 --> 01:50:28.600 out I ran dot org a y n r n 2064 01:50:28.720 --> 01:50:32.399 d dot org for information about her, about her life, 2065 01:50:32.399 --> 01:50:35.720 about the books, what languages they're available in. It's all 2066 01:50:35.720 --> 01:50:36.920 available on the website. 2067 01:50:37.159 --> 01:50:37.760 Thank you so much. 2068 01:50:37.920 --> 01:50:41.640 Er my pleasure, absolutely, super real fun absolutely and it 2069 01:50:41.760 --> 01:50:43.960 was really fun. It was fun for me absolutely. 2070 01:50:44.359 --> 01:50:48.159 Guys, stick with us. We'll have a NEXTRA podcast today 2071 01:50:48.600 --> 01:50:51.239 at nine pm, probably between. 2072 01:50:50.960 --> 01:50:53.079 Eight and what about your kids? 2073 01:50:53.279 --> 01:50:56.079 Yeah, what about talk kids exactly, That's what I say 2074 01:50:56.119 --> 01:50:59.119 about sacrifice. Guys, stick with us. We will have a 2075 01:50:59.159 --> 01:51:05.920 conversation about home schooling, about even I mean, you'll see, 2076 01:51:05.960 --> 01:51:09.720 you'll see Juan Calsu and the sand will be here. 2077 01:51:10.039 --> 01:51:13.039 You know them already. It's going to be a great conversation. Tonight, 2078 01:51:13.479 --> 01:51:16.560 and we will actually try to follow, for example tomorrow 2079 01:51:16.680 --> 01:51:20.520 and in the other days, the presidential interviews on on 2080 01:51:20.960 --> 01:51:24.159 a typ so be be sure to follow that as well. 2081 01:51:24.319 --> 01:51:27.279 If you still don't follow us on Instagram, you will 2082 01:51:27.359 --> 01:51:30.439 be always aware of the next episodes. Thank you so much, 2083 01:51:30.560 --> 01:51:32.880 Thank you for the questions, Thank you for listening. If 2084 01:51:32.920 --> 01:51:35.640 you like it, share it with everybody that you know. 2085 01:51:35.880 --> 01:51:40.359 Thank you so much. And Susan, thanks you guys. 2086 01:51:47.000 --> 01:51:49.039 You know, the quarter of public. 2087 01:51:56.920 --> 01:52:00.439 So spious. 2088 01:52:00.439 --> 01:52:02.199 Some Kingrodas and mothers Sibius and awesome