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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the murder of Michael Girardi and

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<v Speaker 1>the wrongful conviction of Sharif Couzan Robin. Do you want

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<v Speaker 1>to catch everyone up when we talked about in our

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<v Speaker 1>previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is one of the most outrageous wrongful conviction

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<v Speaker 2>cases we've ever discussed. It took place in New Orleans

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety five. Michael Girardi was out on a

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<v Speaker 2>date with a woman named Connie Babbit in the French Quarter,

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<v Speaker 2>but as they were walking back to his truck, he

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<v Speaker 2>wound up getting shot to death and robbed by three

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<v Speaker 2>unidentified black mails. They soon arrested a sixteen year old

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<v Speaker 2>suspect named Sharif Coussen after Connie Babbin identified him as

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<v Speaker 2>the shooter, but that was really the only evidence against

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<v Speaker 2>him other than the testimony of a friend of Sharif's name,

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<v Speaker 2>James Rowel, though it soon became a parent that he

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<v Speaker 2>was falsely implicating Sharif because he had a whole bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of other charges that he was trying to get out of.

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<v Speaker 2>So Sharif was charged with first degree murder and as

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<v Speaker 2>well as four armed robberies that he was alleged to

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<v Speaker 2>have been involved in, even though Sharif claimed that he

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<v Speaker 2>had nothing to do with any of these crimes, and

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<v Speaker 2>the Orleans Parish District Attorney's office announced that they were

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<v Speaker 2>going to try Sharif four separate times on each of

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<v Speaker 2>the robbery charges before they charged him with murder, and

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<v Speaker 2>because he was being represented by a public defender, he

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<v Speaker 2>was told that there's no way we're going to win

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<v Speaker 2>five consecutive trials. So it's probably a good idea if

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<v Speaker 2>you plead guilty to the robbery charges even though you're innocent,

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<v Speaker 2>because you'll get a lighter sentence and we can put

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<v Speaker 2>all of the focus on getting you off on the

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<v Speaker 2>murder charge. Well, he did that. He got twenty year

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<v Speaker 2>cents for the robberies, and when they went on trial

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<v Speaker 2>for the murder charge, Connie Babin identified Charif as the

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<v Speaker 2>robber she saw and that was enough to get him

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<v Speaker 2>convicted and he received the death penalty, even though he

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<v Speaker 2>was only seventeen years old at that time, which generated

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of controversy, and of course it turned out

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<v Speaker 2>to the whole case was rife with corruption that Connie

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<v Speaker 2>Babin had originally made a statement to a police officer

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<v Speaker 2>that she didn't have her glasses on that night and

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't actually see the robber's face, but it seemed to

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<v Speaker 2>parent that police coursed her into identifying Charif as the robber.

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<v Speaker 2>It turned out that Sharif had a rock solid alibi

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<v Speaker 2>placing him at the other side of the city at

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<v Speaker 2>the time that Michael was murdered. But they prosecutors did

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<v Speaker 2>every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent

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<v Speaker 2>this alibi from making it. They even altered the tape

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<v Speaker 2>of Shreif's basketball coach, saying that he dropped him off

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<v Speaker 2>at ten thirty, which is when the murder took place.

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<v Speaker 2>They even falsely detained some alibi witnesses that were going

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<v Speaker 2>to back up Sharif. So the whole thing was pretty outrageous,

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<v Speaker 2>but it eventually generated enough controversy that Sharif's conviction was

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<v Speaker 2>overturned and the murder charges were dropped and he was

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<v Speaker 2>eventually released from prison. But the authorities continue to maintain

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<v Speaker 2>that he was guilty all along, so he never got

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<v Speaker 2>any compensation for his wrongful conviction. And unfortunately, the real killers,

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<v Speaker 2>all three of them of Michael Girardi were never identified

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<v Speaker 2>in cot, so this is technically an unsaw mystery. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>so would you say you were suitably outraged by all

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<v Speaker 2>the details we shared about this story in part one.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not going to turn this whole series into a

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<v Speaker 2>massive crusade against the death penalty, but I will say

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<v Speaker 2>that this story is a case study and how horribly

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<v Speaker 2>the death penalty can go wrong. Even if Sharif Kussen

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<v Speaker 2>was actually guilty of this murder, a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>still had issues with the idea of executing someone who

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<v Speaker 2>was only sixteen years old when he committed the crime.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's not like that type of thing is unprecedented,

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<v Speaker 2>as the United States has executed a few people for

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<v Speaker 2>having committed some pretty heinous murders when they were under

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<v Speaker 2>the age of eighteen. But if you're going to do

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<v Speaker 2>something like that, you need a rock solid case and

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<v Speaker 2>much stronger evidence than one eye witnesses who wasn't even

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<v Speaker 2>wearing her glasses when she saw the crime. In an

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<v Speaker 2>ironic PostScript to the story, only six months before Sharif

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<v Speaker 2>was released from prison, the Supreme Court of the United

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<v Speaker 2>States made a ruling on the case Roper versus Simmons,

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<v Speaker 2>voting five to four at a bar capital punishment for

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<v Speaker 2>offenders who commit crimes before the age of eighteen. The

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<v Speaker 2>case in question involved a seventeen year old named Christopher Simmons,

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<v Speaker 2>who was sent to death for his involvement in a

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<v Speaker 2>brutal murder, which he committed alongside two other friends. Even

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<v Speaker 2>though there was no doubt Simmons was guilty, the Supreme

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<v Speaker 2>Court ruled that it was unconstitutional to execute someone for

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<v Speaker 2>committing a crime at that age. So if Sharif Kusen's

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<v Speaker 2>conviction had occurred one decade later, he never would have

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<v Speaker 2>been sent to death row. But then perhaps his story

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<v Speaker 2>might not have garnered as much attention, and that is

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<v Speaker 2>ultimately the most disturbing thing about this case. The people

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<v Speaker 2>in power clearly knew that they were sending an innocent

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<v Speaker 2>teenage kid to be executed, but they didn't seem to

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<v Speaker 2>have any remorse about it. Perhaps they genuinely believe Sharif

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<v Speaker 2>was the perpetrator when his name first popped up in

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<v Speaker 2>the investigation, but once the uncovered concrete evidence that he

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<v Speaker 2>was at another location at the time the murder took place,

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<v Speaker 2>that should have been the end of it. Instead, they

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<v Speaker 2>committed some pretty egregious misconduct in order to secure a

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<v Speaker 2>conviction at any cost.

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<v Speaker 3>This is where the case actually goes haywire when you

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<v Speaker 3>dig down and you see that people are knowingly hiding evidence,

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<v Speaker 3>People are knowingly falsifying testimonies from eyewitnesses and or coercing

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<v Speaker 3>a certain testimony out of them. When someone had to

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<v Speaker 3>make sure that they averted and got the witnesses who

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<v Speaker 3>were at the basketball game to go to another location

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<v Speaker 3>so that they would miss their calling to sit at

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<v Speaker 3>the trial and actually defend him and say he played

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<v Speaker 3>basketball with me that night. These are knowing, they're known actions.

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<v Speaker 3>These are purposeful actions where these people said, if this happens,

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<v Speaker 3>if the truth gets out, this kid's going to be

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<v Speaker 3>released because we're hiding the truth or we're coercing a

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<v Speaker 3>version of the truth that we want to actually exist

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<v Speaker 3>and not the actual truth. It's disturbing because it's not

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<v Speaker 3>just the fact that you have somebody on trial. You

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<v Speaker 3>have someone on trial who's eligible for the death penalty

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<v Speaker 3>in this case, and it's a child. This is someone

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<v Speaker 3>that literally they had no care whatsoever about this individual

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<v Speaker 3>because they said it's more important that we are right

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<v Speaker 3>and that we get our version of the truth across,

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<v Speaker 3>even if it means we need to break our own

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<v Speaker 3>professional and ethical standards. And that's exactly what they did.

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<v Speaker 3>You nailed it, Robin. It doesn't even matter the fact

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<v Speaker 3>if you're pro or are anti the death penalty itself,

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<v Speaker 3>because people can make very good arguments for the death penalty,

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<v Speaker 3>and people can make very good arguments against it. But

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<v Speaker 3>when you start to look at the fact that we

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<v Speaker 3>have had hundreds of people exonerated because they did not

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<v Speaker 3>do the crime they were convicted for, and many of those,

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<v Speaker 3>a large percentage of those are serving time on death

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<v Speaker 3>row before their release, it makes you call into question.

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<v Speaker 3>If you can make a mistake, how do you then

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<v Speaker 3>stand behind such a permanent punishment. There is not always

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<v Speaker 3>a guarantee, even when there's this overwhelming amount of evidence

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<v Speaker 3>that someone's going to be released, because other people stepped

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<v Speaker 3>over the line and did not withhold or did not

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<v Speaker 3>uphold their constitutional rights, did not stand behind their professional

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<v Speaker 3>ethics and do the right thing, and instead they fought

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<v Speaker 3>to win.

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<v Speaker 4>That's exactly what happened in this case.

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<v Speaker 3>The fact that the death penalty was on the table

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<v Speaker 3>is horrific, and you had a child who sat on

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<v Speaker 3>death row wondering if they were going to die for

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<v Speaker 3>something that they did not do.

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<v Speaker 4>Blows my mind.

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<v Speaker 1>It's particularly horrific in these cases where there's a wrongful conviction.

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<v Speaker 1>There's somebody, like you just said, is a child and

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<v Speaker 1>you've got the death penalty that's on the line here,

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<v Speaker 1>and these people seem to be colluding and conspiring to

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<v Speaker 1>bury him. And did they actually believe that he was guilty.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe initially they did, but it seems like there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people along the way who could have looked

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<v Speaker 1>at the evidence and went, m he's likely not the guy,

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<v Speaker 1>but he's a guy and we've got him, so like,

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<v Speaker 1>let's just go forward with this and close the case.

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<v Speaker 1>It feels so egregious because we put this trust in

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<v Speaker 1>the justice system, in the police, in the prosecutors, and

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<v Speaker 1>we hope that they are going to uphold the standard

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<v Speaker 1>of justice. So when they do something like this, it

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<v Speaker 1>just breaks our trust, and especially when they do it

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<v Speaker 1>on purpose. These weren't tiny little mistakes. These were big

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<v Speaker 1>mistakes that were made and Sharif paid for those mistakes,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's just so so sad.

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<v Speaker 3>Let me ask you guys, this, if it wasn't knowingly.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of these things wouldn't have happened. If you

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<v Speaker 3>look at the fact that we want the troops to

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<v Speaker 3>come out. We know we're right. Let the kids from

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<v Speaker 3>the basketball game testify. Share the complete eyewitness this testimony, right,

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<v Speaker 3>share the truth whatever she said. Share the fact that

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<v Speaker 3>you had an audio tape. And this is what the

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<v Speaker 3>full audio tape said the coach right talking about when

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<v Speaker 3>the when the or the referee, when the basketball game started,

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<v Speaker 3>when the basketball game ended. Remember in part one we

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<v Speaker 3>talked about he said, that's not what I said. It's

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<v Speaker 3>like they spliced the audio tape. I recorded on a

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<v Speaker 3>tiny tape. They had a large cassette tape. I think

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<v Speaker 3>they manipulated my testimony. These are why did you avert

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<v Speaker 3>the kids? Like they knew that a story was going

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<v Speaker 3>to come out that did not jibe with theirs, and

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<v Speaker 3>so they had to say, it's worth getting our story

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<v Speaker 3>to be the truth without letting the truth actually come out.

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<v Speaker 3>Like it's very purposeful in this case. Sometimes it's just

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<v Speaker 3>hey they dropped the ball, or hey, they didn't understand

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<v Speaker 3>what they were looking at. It feels like in this

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<v Speaker 3>one they knew every time they turned around. Ooh, this

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<v Speaker 3>isn't lining up. Ooh, this isn't lining up. Let's hide it,

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<v Speaker 3>let's lie about it, let's manipulate, let's hide it. And

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<v Speaker 3>when that happens, everyone's blood should be boiling. Pro death penalty,

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<v Speaker 3>anti death penalty, whatever you are, your blood should be boiling.

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<v Speaker 3>You signed up to have a justice system that provided

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<v Speaker 3>justice and fairness and constitutionality. In this case blows every

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<v Speaker 3>aspect of genuine truth and goodness about our country and

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<v Speaker 3>justice system.

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<v Speaker 4>Out of the water.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like Juill said, the disturbing part was the collusion,

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<v Speaker 2>because it wasn't just one bad prosecutor. There were multiple

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<v Speaker 2>prosecutors and multiple police detectives who all did these unethical

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<v Speaker 2>things together to get this conviction to work. And it

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<v Speaker 2>just is very disturbing that none of them had a

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<v Speaker 2>conscience and didn't feel bad about setting an innocent kid

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<v Speaker 2>to death row.

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<v Speaker 1>Sharif's family and his supporters were always convinced that his

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<v Speaker 1>realmful conviction was driven by racism, and as we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to discuss in a little while, the Orleans Parish District

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<v Speaker 1>Attorney's office had a pretty troubling history of sending innocent

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<v Speaker 1>African American men to death Row, but I can see

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<v Speaker 1>why the authorities would have felt pretty desperate to close

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<v Speaker 1>this particular case. To put everything into perspective, New Orleans

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<v Speaker 1>was experiencing a serious wave of violence back in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety five. In the first three months of the year,

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<v Speaker 1>there were over one hundred murders, including twenty one which

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<v Speaker 1>occurred in a single week. Michael Girardi's murder was one

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<v Speaker 1>of the most problematic because it took place in the

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<v Speaker 1>French Quarter, New Orleans' most popular tourist spot, and tourism

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<v Speaker 1>has always been the city's biggest industry. An innocent white

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<v Speaker 1>man was senselessly shot in the face in cold blood

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<v Speaker 1>by three black men during an armed robbery after leaving

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<v Speaker 1>a popular restaurant with his date, so I'm sure the

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<v Speaker 1>higher ups were terrified of a sharp decline in tourism

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<v Speaker 1>if the perpetrators weren't brought to justice immediately. It's been

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<v Speaker 1>reported that New Orleans Police chief was notified and brought

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<v Speaker 1>in only fifteen minutes after the crime took place, which

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<v Speaker 1>should give you an idea of what a top priority

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<v Speaker 1>it was. Dariff and his supporters believed that since the

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<v Speaker 1>shooter was a black man. The police were always going

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<v Speaker 1>to pin the murder on someone, regardless of whether or

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<v Speaker 1>not they actually did it. To me, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>biggest red flags here is that even though only one

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<v Speaker 1>person shot Michael Girardi, he still had two accomplices with

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<v Speaker 1>him when it happened. Yet, when Shariff was charged with

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<v Speaker 1>the murder, it doesn't seem like the police made any

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<v Speaker 1>attempt to find these two accomplices, even though they were

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<v Speaker 1>technically accessories. That signifies to me that they knew Sharif

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<v Speaker 1>was not the killer. If you're so convinced that you

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<v Speaker 1>have the right guy, why not try to arrest everyone

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<v Speaker 1>for their role in the crime.

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly If you're really trying to bring safety and justice

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<v Speaker 3>here one, where are the other two? But also remember

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<v Speaker 3>your argument is you are a top tourist destination and

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<v Speaker 3>you've got to make sure that your community is safe

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<v Speaker 3>when you knowingly go after the wrong person, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>brought to your attention that there's some issues in this

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<v Speaker 3>case that you now need to bend and break all

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<v Speaker 3>the rules to keep your story as the truth right.

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<v Speaker 3>You also have the real killer out on the streets,

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<v Speaker 3>So that's another problem that they should have been considering

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<v Speaker 3>here did not cross their mind. It is interesting when

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<v Speaker 3>you look at this is not just someone getting on

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<v Speaker 3>a soapbox and you know, ranting about racism, but when

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<v Speaker 3>you look at the fact that there are areas in

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<v Speaker 3>our country that have always been let's say, even overtly racist. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>the South has been a and it's not just it's

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<v Speaker 3>not just black against white, or white against black or

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<v Speaker 3>Hispanic against black, like, there's just racial tension all across

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<v Speaker 3>the board. South is incredibly prominent for that. And when

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<v Speaker 3>you look at New Orleans, you have a incredibly you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know, the further we get in our lives,

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<v Speaker 3>it's more and more covert racism, but it's still there.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think anybody would tell you that across races,

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<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of racism back and forth. And so

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<v Speaker 3>when you look at these crime statistically, when there is

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<v Speaker 3>a black offender and a white victim, you see a

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<v Speaker 3>much stronger pursuit of harsh, quick punishment for individuals, and

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<v Speaker 3>that makes way for mistakes. I would be very interested

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<v Speaker 3>to see what would happen had this been a black

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<v Speaker 3>man who was shot in the face by three white

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<v Speaker 3>boys young teenage boys. I'd be very interested to see

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<v Speaker 3>what would happen if this was a black sex worker

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<v Speaker 3>who had been shot by a white teenage boy or

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<v Speaker 3>something like that, or even a black boy. Right that

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<v Speaker 3>you have a difference in value of life, right, because

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<v Speaker 3>maybe it was a sex worker or something to that

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<v Speaker 3>extent here, Like you said, it was portrayed innocent white man,

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<v Speaker 3>which he was walking out of his date with his

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<v Speaker 3>innocent girlfriend and shot. One of the most horrific thoughts ever. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>we went to dinner and I lost my life. However,

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<v Speaker 3>in this part of the country, there was a quick

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<v Speaker 3>need to get it solved because this is a tourist place.

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<v Speaker 3>We need to present as if we're safe and that

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<v Speaker 3>this wouldn't happen to you and your family if you

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<v Speaker 3>visited New Orleans. But when you rushed and you didn't

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<v Speaker 3>care that as the time went on you knew this

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<v Speaker 3>person was innocent. You let a real killer who's potentially

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<v Speaker 3>maybe committing some of the other murders in New Orleans

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<v Speaker 3>the rest of that year out on the street.

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<v Speaker 4>It makes no sense to me.

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<v Speaker 3>You want justice, you want safe streets, you want fairness,

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00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:46.080
<v Speaker 3>you want to make sure charges stick, do things the

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<v Speaker 3>right way. Where were the other two kids? And why

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<v Speaker 3>were you so quick and so adamant that it's this kid?

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<v Speaker 3>After time and time again it has shown it was not.

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<v Speaker 1>Just to piggyback on your point quickly. I think what

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<v Speaker 1>you said about it being a black sex worker or

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<v Speaker 1>any black individual. We see the police chief coming out

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<v Speaker 1>and he's there within fifteen minutes of the crime. How

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<v Speaker 1>often did the police chief with those one hundred or

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<v Speaker 1>so murders show up at the crime scenes of black individuals.

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<v Speaker 4>If it's black on black two jewels, right, Like, it's

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<v Speaker 4>just it is.

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<v Speaker 3>That's just not a valued a valuable victim, right like, Oh,

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<v Speaker 3>that's just what happens in that part of town.

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<v Speaker 4>No, it's not.

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<v Speaker 3>And honestly, like you said, let's say race is not

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<v Speaker 3>even an issue. Look at the value that we place

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00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:32.559
<v Speaker 3>on someone who is a sex worker or drug dealer.

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<v Speaker 3>They could be white on white. But when we look

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<v Speaker 3>at those kind of factors, it would have changed. I

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<v Speaker 3>guarantee you it would have changed the response a sex

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<v Speaker 3>worker found dead, a drug dealer found dead, no matter

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<v Speaker 3>what race they were. I don't think the chief of

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<v Speaker 3>police is getting up in the middle of the night

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<v Speaker 3>and coming down there to make sure that they get justice.

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<v Speaker 4>I just don't think that's going to happen now.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the strangest aspects of this case is that

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<v Speaker 2>before his murder trial took place, Sharif willingly pled guilty

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<v Speaker 2>to four unrelated counts of armed robbery, even though he

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<v Speaker 2>insisted he was innocent of those particular crimes as well.

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<v Speaker 2>As a result, when Sharif had his murder conviction overturned,

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00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.440
<v Speaker 2>he did not actually get released from prison, since he

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00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:15.400
<v Speaker 2>still had to finish serving time on those robbery charges. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>Sharif would probably be the first person to tell you

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<v Speaker 2>that he was no angel. He was definitely a troubled

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<v Speaker 2>kid at the time he was arrested and allegedly accompanied

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00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.920
<v Speaker 2>his friend James Rowell on some armed robberies, though Sharif

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<v Speaker 2>maintained that he did not do anything more than a

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00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:31.759
<v Speaker 2>wait in the car. And of course, we also know

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00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.960
<v Speaker 2>that following his release from prison, Sharif stole his boss's

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00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:37.960
<v Speaker 2>identity to commit credit card fraud and wound up back

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<v Speaker 2>behind bars. It seems like Sharif has finally gotten his

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<v Speaker 2>life back on track and has not had any trouble

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<v Speaker 2>with the law in several years, but he certainly was

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<v Speaker 2>an immune to criminal behavior. It's unclear if Sharif actually

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00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:53.880
<v Speaker 2>was one hundred percent innocent of those four counts of

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00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.039
<v Speaker 2>armed robbery, but regardless, there was still a number of

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00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:00.240
<v Speaker 2>issues with how the Orleans Parish District Attorneys off Is

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00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.119
<v Speaker 2>handled things. Sharif was potentially looking at ninety nine years

336
00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:06.880
<v Speaker 2>in prison if he was convicted on those robbery charges,

337
00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:09.799
<v Speaker 2>which seems pretty harsh for a sixteen year old kid

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00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:13.000
<v Speaker 2>who had no criminal record up until that point. It's

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00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:15.559
<v Speaker 2>pretty sad how Sharis's defense team felt that he had

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00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.400
<v Speaker 2>no shot of beating the murder charge unless he pled

341
00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:21.240
<v Speaker 2>guilty to the armed robberies, as they felt that doing

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<v Speaker 2>ten to twenty years in prison was still a better

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<v Speaker 2>option than facing the death penalty. It was an intentionally dirty,

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00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:30.839
<v Speaker 2>strategic tactic from the District Attorney's office to say they

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<v Speaker 2>were going to try Sharif individually on each of the

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<v Speaker 2>armed robbery charges before the even put him on trial

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<v Speaker 2>for murder. There's just no way the defense attorneys for

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00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:42.960
<v Speaker 2>a poor African American kid would have the money or

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<v Speaker 2>resources to secure an acquittal in five separate trials. But

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<v Speaker 2>as we're going to talk about momentarily. This is not

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<v Speaker 2>the first time that this particular district attorney's office has

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<v Speaker 2>used this questionable tactic.

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<v Speaker 3>It's really sad because he's facing ten to twenty years

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<v Speaker 3>if he pleads guilt, which basically the the public defenders

355
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:05.319
<v Speaker 3>are saying, look, man, they're going to charge you four

356
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<v Speaker 3>different times up to one hundred years in prison the

357
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<v Speaker 3>rest of your life, Like you have no value in life,

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<v Speaker 3>So you're either going to spend the rest of your

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00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.920
<v Speaker 3>life in prison or you're going to die via an execution.

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<v Speaker 3>Pick your poison, right, And this poor kid, I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>it's a baby sitting there going okay, ten to twenty

362
00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:24.400
<v Speaker 3>years sounds better than life or death, right, and both

363
00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:28.799
<v Speaker 3>of those are my other option. So he's sitting there thinking, Okay,

364
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<v Speaker 3>I don't have the money or the resources my defense

365
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<v Speaker 3>attorneys who are supposed to advocate for me, or saying

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<v Speaker 3>this is my best bet. Honestly, it doesn't help him

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00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.839
<v Speaker 3>when he pleads guilty because look, guys, he's a criminal. Right,

368
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:46.160
<v Speaker 3>they're going to start assuming he confessed to this. He's

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<v Speaker 3>a criminal.

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<v Speaker 4>It is what it is. They knew that that was

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<v Speaker 4>too daunting of a path for him. To take and then.

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<v Speaker 3>He'd be forced to plead guilty to that if they

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<v Speaker 3>lost their murder trial. At least this kid's away for

374
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<v Speaker 3>twenty years. But it's just, oh, it just makes me

375
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<v Speaker 3>so angry because yes, yes he made mistakes, Yes he

376
00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:09.119
<v Speaker 3>was hanging around the wrong people. Yes he was in

377
00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:12.279
<v Speaker 3>the wrong several times, and he takes accountability for that.

378
00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:16.759
<v Speaker 3>But the reality is is that even as an armed

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<v Speaker 3>robber at age sixteen, Okay, horrible choices, bad decision, sharif right,

380
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.279
<v Speaker 3>if he did do it, But does that mean that

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<v Speaker 3>ninety nine years that literally that kid needs to be

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<v Speaker 3>taken out of an adult prison in a pine box.

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00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:33.680
<v Speaker 3>That's the only way he's ever going to see an

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00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:38.599
<v Speaker 3>exit strategy from prison. It's crazy to me the attitude

385
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.480
<v Speaker 3>that these people had, that there's no redeeming qualities of

386
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.519
<v Speaker 3>this sixteen year old kid sitting in front of him,

387
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:49.000
<v Speaker 3>like as a mother, as a human being, as somebody

388
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.319
<v Speaker 3>who's like, look, we're trying to protect justice and our

389
00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:55.200
<v Speaker 3>community and things like that, let's look at this baby

390
00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.680
<v Speaker 3>and see he has zero value. I don't care if

391
00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.880
<v Speaker 3>he dies. I don't care if he dies via lethal injection,

392
00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:04.359
<v Speaker 3>and I don't care if he dies behind bars, that's

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00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:05.279
<v Speaker 3>what he deserves.

394
00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:06.799
<v Speaker 4>If he committed an armed.

395
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<v Speaker 3>Robbery, and if he killed somebody like right, the armed

396
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:13.119
<v Speaker 3>robbery alone, they said was worth a death sentence. For

397
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.200
<v Speaker 3>him to die in prison, that's insane.

398
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<v Speaker 2>And think about how something like this could prejudice the jury.

399
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.200
<v Speaker 2>If they found out that he's pled guilty to forearmed robberies,

400
00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:23.759
<v Speaker 2>they're probably going to be looking at him as a

401
00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.279
<v Speaker 2>defendant and saying, well, he's trying to say he's innocent

402
00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:28.519
<v Speaker 2>in the murder, but he's obviously a criminal. And I

403
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.440
<v Speaker 2>think that kind of warped their perception and probably encouraged

404
00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:34.000
<v Speaker 2>them to give a guilty verdict in what was otherwise

405
00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:36.640
<v Speaker 2>a very weak case. And I think it says something

406
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:39.119
<v Speaker 2>about the prosecutors where it's like, well, if you are

407
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:41.240
<v Speaker 2>so confident that you're going to get a murder conviction,

408
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:43.880
<v Speaker 2>and what's the point trying him four separate times for

409
00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:46.440
<v Speaker 2>armed robbery because if he's found guilty and murder, he's

410
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.720
<v Speaker 2>going to get the death penalty and he's never getting

411
00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:51.319
<v Speaker 2>out of prison. So it just seemed like a desperation

412
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.880
<v Speaker 2>tactic saying that we have to give him all these

413
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.200
<v Speaker 2>obstacles to overcome before he even goes on trial for murder,

414
00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:59.799
<v Speaker 2>and no matter what, he's going to do prison time,

415
00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:01.680
<v Speaker 2>even if he is found not guilty.

416
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<v Speaker 1>Does it feel like a waste of taxpayer money?

417
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<v Speaker 2>Exactly?

418
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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely, And you want to know why they did it.

419
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:12.000
<v Speaker 3>Think about the act of armed robbery? Okay, you think

420
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.240
<v Speaker 3>about the sixteen year old kid is so brazen. He's

421
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:16.160
<v Speaker 3>going to take a lethal weapon and he is going

422
00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:19.519
<v Speaker 3>to go and harass people, to abandon their goods, to

423
00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:22.200
<v Speaker 3>give them their money, to give them their car, whatever

424
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:24.440
<v Speaker 3>he was robbing them for. Right, He's gonna do it

425
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:29.200
<v Speaker 3>with a weapon that can cause lethal consequences. So who's

426
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.599
<v Speaker 3>to say the night this poor little couple goes to dinner,

427
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.279
<v Speaker 3>comes out, and a man loses his life when confronted

428
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:39.559
<v Speaker 3>by three black men, Right, who's to say that wasn't

429
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:41.160
<v Speaker 3>an armed robbery gone wrong.

430
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:42.839
<v Speaker 4>You're setting him.

431
00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:45.640
<v Speaker 3>Up to look like someone who wields a weapon, who

432
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:48.279
<v Speaker 3>uses force to get what he wants. And it would

433
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.960
<v Speaker 3>have taken one hair to go from being an armed

434
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:54.440
<v Speaker 3>robber to a killer, because all you had to do

435
00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:58.599
<v Speaker 3>is pull the trigger out of fear anger whatever. So

436
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:00.359
<v Speaker 3>if they can get him to confess to that, like

437
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.559
<v Speaker 3>you said, Robin, what does that then say to the jury.

438
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.279
<v Speaker 3>He's a dangerous weapon wielding like minutes who needs to

439
00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:09.400
<v Speaker 3>be killed is what they decided here.

440
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.480
<v Speaker 1>So now we're going to talk about Harry Connick Senior,

441
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.559
<v Speaker 1>who was the Orleans Parish District Attorney when Sharif was convicted.

442
00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:21.559
<v Speaker 1>So if you listen to a recent series of episodes

443
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:24.880
<v Speaker 1>about the murder of Crystal Champagne and the wrongful conviction

444
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:28.599
<v Speaker 1>of Damon Thibodeaux, we had words of praise for his nephew,

445
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:32.640
<v Speaker 1>Paul Connick Junior, because even though he convicted Damon and

446
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:35.599
<v Speaker 1>sent an innocent man to death row, he was actually

447
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.920
<v Speaker 1>willing to take responsibility for his mistake and played a

448
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:43.759
<v Speaker 1>huge role in getting Damon's conviction overturned. Well, unfortunately we

449
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:46.119
<v Speaker 1>can't share the same words of praise for his uncle.

450
00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:49.680
<v Speaker 1>You're probably familiar, as we talked about in our previous

451
00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:53.359
<v Speaker 1>episode with the famous jazz singer actor Harry Connick Junior,

452
00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.440
<v Speaker 1>and yes, Harry Connick Senior is his father. Conic Senior

453
00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:01.039
<v Speaker 1>was elected district attorney in nineteen seventy when he beat

454
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:04.799
<v Speaker 1>Jim Garrison, who was best known for his investigation into

455
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.680
<v Speaker 1>the John F. Kennedy assassination. Knick wound up holding the

456
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.240
<v Speaker 1>position for thirty years until his retirement, and made it

457
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:15.000
<v Speaker 1>to the age of ninety seven before he passed away

458
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.160
<v Speaker 1>in January of twenty twenty four. However, Conach left behind

459
00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:23.640
<v Speaker 1>a tarnish legacy as Orland's parish District Attorney, as during

460
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:27.920
<v Speaker 1>his tenure there were allegations of prosecutorial misconduct in no

461
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.720
<v Speaker 1>less than thirty six cases that his office tried, and

462
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:35.880
<v Speaker 1>nineteen of them resulted in being either overturned convictions or

463
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:40.640
<v Speaker 1>reduced sentences. Even though Conic did not personally try Sharif Couzin,

464
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.279
<v Speaker 1>he was named as a defendant in Sharif's civil suit

465
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:48.440
<v Speaker 1>because of his failure to properly train and supervise his prosecutors.

466
00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:51.559
<v Speaker 1>Shariff is not the only innocent person who was sent

467
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.079
<v Speaker 1>to death row on Conick's watch, and the most infamous

468
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:58.319
<v Speaker 1>example of this has a number of parallels to Sharif's case.

469
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.839
<v Speaker 3>I mean, here, you have this idea, it's almost like

470
00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:05.359
<v Speaker 3>linking this to a surgeon, right that when you deal

471
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:08.279
<v Speaker 3>with a human being who's asked to perform any task,

472
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:10.240
<v Speaker 3>there's going to be times that you make a mistake,

473
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:14.240
<v Speaker 3>an honest, horrific heavy mistake.

474
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:14.640
<v Speaker 4>Right.

475
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:17.440
<v Speaker 3>So you have a surgeon who's operating on somebody's spinal cord.

476
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:20.079
<v Speaker 3>Their patient wakes up and they can't feel their feet,

477
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:23.559
<v Speaker 3>and you say, oh my god, oh my god, something happened.

478
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:25.119
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what happened. Let me trying to the

479
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.000
<v Speaker 3>bottom of this. Right, Let's look at the procedure that happened.

480
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:30.759
<v Speaker 3>Let me do X rays and cat scans and everything

481
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.559
<v Speaker 3>else and see where I went wrong. Something happened. You

482
00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:38.839
<v Speaker 3>acknowledge I made a mistake, something happened. I'm so sorry,

483
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.359
<v Speaker 3>and you try to fix it, or you do what

484
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:43.559
<v Speaker 3>a surgeon does who wants to avoid any kind of

485
00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:46.799
<v Speaker 3>legal prosecution, and that's the only thing, right as civil

486
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:49.799
<v Speaker 3>lawsuits the only thing they want to protect themselves against.

487
00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.359
<v Speaker 3>And they say, well, I don't know what happened, and

488
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:55.599
<v Speaker 3>they don't validate, they don't acknowledge, they don't.

489
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.920
<v Speaker 4>Explore where they could have messed up.

490
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.839
<v Speaker 3>And to you, your reputation was more important than that

491
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:03.319
<v Speaker 3>patient who was sitting before you.

492
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:05.599
<v Speaker 4>Happens every single day.

493
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.319
<v Speaker 3>Happened to my parents, right they my parents are crazy

494
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.559
<v Speaker 3>for the fact that my dad's paralyzed out after he

495
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:13.680
<v Speaker 3>should have walked out of an easy outpatient surgery.

496
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Right.

497
00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:17.440
<v Speaker 3>Doctor never acknowledged it. All they had to do was say,

498
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:20.680
<v Speaker 3>I made a mistake. Let me help, let me see

499
00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:23.440
<v Speaker 3>what we can do. Had they done that, things can

500
00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:27.839
<v Speaker 3>be fixed. That's what happens here when one of the

501
00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:33.000
<v Speaker 3>conics says, uh, looks like I made a massive mistake.

502
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:35.680
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, how do I fix it? Let me

503
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:37.960
<v Speaker 3>be on board with you, Let me fight to get

504
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.200
<v Speaker 3>this kid free. I messed up, and I'm so sorry.

505
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.839
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of integrity. Remember he goes on to

506
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.880
<v Speaker 3>win his race and to continue to be a prosecutor

507
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:50.680
<v Speaker 3>and things like that, because I think there's value in

508
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:55.240
<v Speaker 3>saying someone who deals with such heavy consequences says, I'm sorry,

509
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:59.119
<v Speaker 3>I messed up. Now it's my responsibility to help make

510
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:03.079
<v Speaker 3>it right. And then you had this case where they say, oh,

511
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.880
<v Speaker 3>I'll double down. I'll triple down, just like with the

512
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:08.759
<v Speaker 3>West Memphis three, where everyone just looked away and said like,

513
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:12.599
<v Speaker 3>it's not my fault, not my fault. If you had

514
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:16.079
<v Speaker 3>taken accountability and said, wait a second, something went wrong

515
00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:18.559
<v Speaker 3>in this case, there would have been a whole lot

516
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.720
<v Speaker 3>more integrity and respect for these people and they didn't.

517
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:22.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

518
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:24.799
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the thing with a lot of prosecutors

519
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:26.880
<v Speaker 2>is that they're worried that if they admit to a mistake,

520
00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:29.799
<v Speaker 2>it's going to ruin their career and then they'll have

521
00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.400
<v Speaker 2>to lose reelection, we'll be forced to resign. But Paul

522
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Konnig Junior is an example of this paying off because

523
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.440
<v Speaker 2>he admitted his mistake and the public forgave him, and

524
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:42.640
<v Speaker 2>he keeps getting reelected and is still in his position

525
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.400
<v Speaker 2>as district Attorney, like thirty years after he made this

526
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:47.839
<v Speaker 2>wrongful conviction. So obviously he has a lot of trust

527
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:50.160
<v Speaker 2>from the public who feel, well, he made a mistake,

528
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.599
<v Speaker 2>but he admitted to it, so let's keep reelecting him.

529
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:55.599
<v Speaker 2>Whereas with Harry Connick Senior, he kept trying to cover

530
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.359
<v Speaker 2>up his mistakes and he kept getting re elected and

531
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:00.599
<v Speaker 2>was only after he retired that he had all these

532
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:04.640
<v Speaker 2>horrible allegations come out about all these these aximus conduct

533
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:06.039
<v Speaker 2>that he did while he was in office.

534
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:09.799
<v Speaker 1>Have you guys heard of what's going on in the

535
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:12.839
<v Speaker 1>ad on say Ed case with them the State's the

536
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates, No, yes, Yeah, it's pretty insane.

537
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:24.240
<v Speaker 1>He wrote this scathing report of basically fraud committed by

538
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:27.559
<v Speaker 1>the previous people who were in office as State's attorney

539
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:31.640
<v Speaker 1>and all the people there in trying to make ad

540
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:35.559
<v Speaker 1>On look innocent and like it's like eighty pages long.

541
00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:39.119
<v Speaker 1>And the prosecutors on their podcast went through it, and

542
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.759
<v Speaker 1>they didn't go through like all the eighty pages or

543
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:44.000
<v Speaker 1>whatever it was, but they went through some of the

544
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:49.039
<v Speaker 1>language that he used in certain parts and it was titillating. Like,

545
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.480
<v Speaker 1>if you're interested in the ad on On say ed case,

546
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:53.759
<v Speaker 1>I highly recommend going and listening to that.

547
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:56.039
<v Speaker 4>Arguing for or against his guilt.

548
00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:57.799
<v Speaker 1>Oh, arguing for his guilt?

549
00:28:57.960 --> 00:28:59.200
<v Speaker 4>Okay, okay. Interesting.

550
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:02.480
<v Speaker 3>I think I think we failed to recognize though, like

551
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:04.079
<v Speaker 3>in that case, that's interesting.

552
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:04.960
<v Speaker 4>I'll be going to read that.

553
00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:10.079
<v Speaker 3>But I think it's interesting how we downplay the value

554
00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:13.880
<v Speaker 3>of the grace that most human beings can offer. Like

555
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.599
<v Speaker 3>even these individuals who you see that are wrongfully convicted

556
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:18.640
<v Speaker 3>and stuff like that, before they've gotten any kind of money.

557
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:20.480
<v Speaker 4>People are like, well, it's because they got paid. No.

558
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:24.759
<v Speaker 3>Acknowledge that I'm not crazy, Acknowledge that I'm not bad,

559
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:27.640
<v Speaker 3>Acknowledge that you made a mistake, there's a lot of

560
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:30.720
<v Speaker 3>grace that human beings have the ability to offer one

561
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:35.960
<v Speaker 3>another when there's vulnerability and responsibility and accountability that someone

562
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.880
<v Speaker 3>takes on. That takes a big person, That takes an

563
00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:43.039
<v Speaker 3>emotionally mature person to say I messed up and I'm sorry,

564
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:44.880
<v Speaker 3>and here's how I know that affected you, and let

565
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:48.079
<v Speaker 3>me help make it right. That's what being a human

566
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.799
<v Speaker 3>being is all about, and not some selfish like I

567
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:54.240
<v Speaker 3>don't know, narcissistic kind of human being that says like

568
00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:57.640
<v Speaker 3>I don't care what happened to you. All I care

569
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:01.160
<v Speaker 3>about is me. That's it's just not a good look.

570
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:04.640
<v Speaker 3>Like I have so much pride when I see someone

571
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:08.000
<v Speaker 3>who humbly says I messed up and I'm sorry, and

572
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.160
<v Speaker 3>I know what it did, and tell me more of

573
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:11.599
<v Speaker 3>what it did to you, and then how do I

574
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:14.519
<v Speaker 3>make it better? That's what humanity's all about. And so

575
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:17.880
<v Speaker 3>I don't understand money's more important to you than human

576
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.359
<v Speaker 3>value in relationships, and I don't know integrity.

577
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:22.759
<v Speaker 4>It just blows my mind.

578
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:27.559
<v Speaker 2>So on December sixth, nineteen eighty four, a businessman named

579
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Raymond Lyouza Junior was fatally shot to death during an

580
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:34.759
<v Speaker 2>armed robbery, and shortly thereafter two African American men named

581
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.680
<v Speaker 2>John Thompson and Kevin Freeman were arrested for the crime.

582
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:41.119
<v Speaker 2>The murder weapon and a ring which was stolen from Liuza,

583
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:44.559
<v Speaker 2>was found in Thompson's possession, but Thompson claimed that Freeman

584
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:47.039
<v Speaker 2>sold him these items after the crime took place and

585
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:50.279
<v Speaker 2>he had nothing to do with it. However, Freeman claimed

586
00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:53.400
<v Speaker 2>that he and Thompson committed the crime together and Thompson

587
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:56.160
<v Speaker 2>was the shooter, so he agreed to testify against him

588
00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:00.079
<v Speaker 2>in exchange for a five year sentence. Shortly thereafter, the

589
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.559
<v Speaker 2>family recognized Thompson's photo in the newspaper and identified him

590
00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:05.839
<v Speaker 2>as a man who had robbed them during a carjacking

591
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:09.559
<v Speaker 2>several months earlier. Thompson maintained that he was innocent of

592
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:13.200
<v Speaker 2>both the murder and the carjacking, but Harry Connick Senior

593
00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:16.480
<v Speaker 2>made the strategic decision to try Thompson separately for the

594
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:19.880
<v Speaker 2>carjacking before he took him to trial for murder. As

595
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:22.279
<v Speaker 2>you might have noticed, this is very similar to how

596
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:25.599
<v Speaker 2>the District Attorney's office planned to try Sharif four separate

597
00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:29.759
<v Speaker 2>times on on robbery charges before they tried him for murder. Well,

598
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:32.880
<v Speaker 2>in this particular case, Thompson was found guilty of felony

599
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:35.880
<v Speaker 2>carjacking and was sent to forty nine years in prison.

600
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:38.640
<v Speaker 2>So by the time he went on trial for Raymond

601
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:42.119
<v Speaker 2>Lyuz's murder, Thompson was advised by his attorneys not to

602
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.279
<v Speaker 2>testify at his own defense because if he did, the

603
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>prosecution would have been able to share his previous carjacking

604
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:51.720
<v Speaker 2>conviction to the jury. As a result, Thompson was unable

605
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:55.279
<v Speaker 2>to testify that Freeman sold him the gun and Lyuza's ring,

606
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:57.759
<v Speaker 2>so he wound up being found guilty of the murder

607
00:31:57.799 --> 00:31:58.759
<v Speaker 2>and sends to death.

608
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:01.839
<v Speaker 3>So here's what he's doing. Here's what they're doing here.

609
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:05.720
<v Speaker 3>They're scene that it's much easier for a juror to

610
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:08.559
<v Speaker 3>be sitting there to say, hey, we're looking at an

611
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:12.559
<v Speaker 3>armed robbery, we're looking at a carjacking, okay, And they

612
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:17.279
<v Speaker 3>have taken resources in time and money. This person who

613
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:21.039
<v Speaker 3>is shackled and in a jumpsuit, they're coming to sip

614
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.920
<v Speaker 3>before us, and we are trying them for a violent

615
00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.880
<v Speaker 3>crime right period, But it's not murder. And you think

616
00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.079
<v Speaker 3>about the idea that, Okay, this person is going to

617
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:33.680
<v Speaker 3>trial this person, they're pretty convinced did it, and by

618
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:37.119
<v Speaker 3>the time they've walked into the courtroom, I think the

619
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:41.640
<v Speaker 3>jury one assumes they did it unless you can prove otherwise.

620
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:42.720
<v Speaker 4>Even though that's not the way or do justice system

621
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:43.480
<v Speaker 4>is supposed to work.

622
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:47.680
<v Speaker 3>And honestly, the stakes just quote aren't that high. We're

623
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:51.319
<v Speaker 3>not talking life or death. We're talking a violent offense.

624
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:54.079
<v Speaker 3>And so when you're asked, hey, let's make a ruling

625
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:57.640
<v Speaker 3>on a carjacking, I think senses are less heightened in

626
00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:01.640
<v Speaker 3>that moment, like, Okay, is this kid robbing people at gunpoint?

627
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.640
<v Speaker 3>Is he forcing people out of their car at gunpoint?

628
00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:05.599
<v Speaker 4>Yes? Or no?

629
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.640
<v Speaker 3>It's just not the same type of scrutiny. I think

630
00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:12.359
<v Speaker 3>that people which they should be, but I don't think

631
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:14.599
<v Speaker 3>as a juror you would put the same kind of

632
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:17.799
<v Speaker 3>weight on your own heart as if you were ruling

633
00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:20.759
<v Speaker 3>on a murder. So I think strategically they're saying, Okay,

634
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:24.680
<v Speaker 3>rule on this, it's an easier win for us. And

635
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.240
<v Speaker 3>then what does that paint about this individual? They're a

636
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.279
<v Speaker 3>terrible human being, They're a dangerous human being. They make

637
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:36.640
<v Speaker 3>horrible decisions, they use a weapon. One action could turn

638
00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:39.480
<v Speaker 3>them into a murder and it did in this case.

639
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:39.720
<v Speaker 2>Right.

640
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:42.400
<v Speaker 3>Look, they've already said that they rob people at gunpoint.

641
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:47.279
<v Speaker 3>They already say they hijack and they steal cars at gunpoint.

642
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:50.039
<v Speaker 3>What would make you think that one time it didn't

643
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.799
<v Speaker 3>go too far and they killed someone. So they're really

644
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:55.720
<v Speaker 3>setting these people up in that kind of situation where

645
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:58.680
<v Speaker 3>let's try them for the minor minor, the less let's

646
00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:01.920
<v Speaker 3>say the les severe. It's not minor less severe case first,

647
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:04.720
<v Speaker 3>and then how can the jury see them any other

648
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:09.320
<v Speaker 3>way but a complete monster and they're very capable of murder.

649
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:12.599
<v Speaker 3>If they can do this, why not the next best thing,

650
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.320
<v Speaker 3>which is something went wrong and they shot the person.

651
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, as Jule said earlier, it does seem like a

652
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.079
<v Speaker 2>major waste of taxpayer money to try someone on a

653
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.199
<v Speaker 2>lesser crime before you take them to trial to murder,

654
00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:27.360
<v Speaker 2>even though if they're convicted of the murderer, they're never

655
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:29.800
<v Speaker 2>getting out of prison. But it seems like that was

656
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:33.559
<v Speaker 2>the strategy of this particular district attorney's office, where they think, well,

657
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:35.639
<v Speaker 2>we have a weak murder case, so let's just find

658
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:38.519
<v Speaker 2>some other random unsolved crime and pend it on them

659
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:40.760
<v Speaker 2>as well, and then take them to trial. So that

660
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.480
<v Speaker 2>we pretty much prejudice the jury before they even go

661
00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:44.480
<v Speaker 2>to trial for murder.

662
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:49.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, Thompson languished on death row into the blood stain

663
00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:52.679
<v Speaker 1>which had been left behind by the robber during the carjacking,

664
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.480
<v Speaker 1>was tested and it didn't match him. It turned out

665
00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:58.800
<v Speaker 1>the KNIC had already tested the blood at the time

666
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:02.480
<v Speaker 1>of the original trial, but suppressed the results from the defense.

667
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:07.480
<v Speaker 1>As a result, Thompson's carjacking conviction was overturned, and this

668
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:10.159
<v Speaker 1>eventually led him to receiving a new trial on the

669
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:14.840
<v Speaker 1>murder conviction. This time, several new witnesses testified that they

670
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:17.719
<v Speaker 1>had only seen one person running away from the scene

671
00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:21.639
<v Speaker 1>when Raymond Lauza was murdered, and it seemed very likely

672
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:24.679
<v Speaker 1>that Kevin Freeman, who had received the five year sentence

673
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:29.079
<v Speaker 1>for testifying about Thompson, was the real killer. As a result,

674
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Thompson was acquitted and finally released from prison after serving

675
00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:37.000
<v Speaker 1>eighteen years. Thompson leader won a fourteen million civil lawsuit

676
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:41.119
<v Speaker 1>against Connick and the Orleans Parish District Attorney's office, but

677
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Conic appealed to judgment and the case wound up making

678
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.440
<v Speaker 1>it all the way to the United States Supreme Court.

679
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:50.639
<v Speaker 1>In the case Conac v. Thompson, the Supreme Court voted

680
00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:54.199
<v Speaker 1>five to four to overturn the fourteen million dollar judgment,

681
00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:57.280
<v Speaker 1>ruling that the district Attorney's office was not liable for

682
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.559
<v Speaker 1>Thompson's wrongful conviction. The Thompson case is pretty outrageous in

683
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.159
<v Speaker 1>its own right and could probably be the subject of

684
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:07.920
<v Speaker 1>its own podcast episode, But it just demonstrates the conic

685
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:11.079
<v Speaker 1>and the Orleans Paris District Attorney's office had a very

686
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:16.880
<v Speaker 1>troubling history of misconduct and railroading innocent people, particularly African Americans.

687
00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:20.159
<v Speaker 3>Here's my thing, It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter the

688
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:22.800
<v Speaker 3>intent behind it. So like again, let's go back to

689
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:27.719
<v Speaker 3>the surgeon. You paralyzed somebody because something happened, something went wrong.

690
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:32.119
<v Speaker 3>Was there mal intent? Was there a did you want

691
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:33.360
<v Speaker 3>to hurt the individual?

692
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:35.039
<v Speaker 4>No, you could have.

693
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.000
<v Speaker 3>Followed everything to the tea. And if your patient wakes

694
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:41.039
<v Speaker 3>up and there's a bad outcome, why would you not

695
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.039
<v Speaker 3>want to make sure that they got resources to make

696
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:44.400
<v Speaker 3>it right?

697
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:44.599
<v Speaker 2>Right?

698
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:45.679
<v Speaker 4>You now need a caregiver.

699
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:48.559
<v Speaker 3>You now need you know, a van that allows you

700
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:52.000
<v Speaker 3>to use a wheelchair like you have expenses because something

701
00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:55.840
<v Speaker 3>went wrong. It was never intended there was no you know,

702
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.239
<v Speaker 3>mal intent there, but something went wrong, and for that,

703
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.920
<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry. Here's resources that we can provide you to

704
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:04.639
<v Speaker 3>try to make life a little bit better and a.

705
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:06.159
<v Speaker 4>Little bit easier. Here.

706
00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:07.960
<v Speaker 3>You hear people all the time, they're like, how much

707
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.360
<v Speaker 3>money did they get? I'm sorry, I couldn't survive a

708
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.639
<v Speaker 3>day in prison. I don't know if you sentenced me

709
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:19.599
<v Speaker 3>to death row and I didn't do something right. I

710
00:37:19.639 --> 00:37:23.159
<v Speaker 3>can't imagine anybody who would say, well, let me make

711
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:26.360
<v Speaker 3>sure that I prove it's not my fault.

712
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:29.800
<v Speaker 4>Something happened. It doesn't even need malintent.

713
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:32.079
<v Speaker 3>You could have done everything right and this poor person

714
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:36.639
<v Speaker 3>innocently got convicted. Why can't the state take accountability to

715
00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:40.760
<v Speaker 3>say something happened, the outcome was wrong. We did everything

716
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:44.280
<v Speaker 3>by the book, We upheld ethical standards, we were very professional.

717
00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:48.559
<v Speaker 3>Something wrong happened, and therefore this poor person is going

718
00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:56.079
<v Speaker 3>to need resources and access to money, services support to

719
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:58.079
<v Speaker 3>make sure that they can now be integrated back into

720
00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:00.880
<v Speaker 3>society and have a healthy, productive life because we made

721
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:01.679
<v Speaker 3>a mistake.

722
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:04.079
<v Speaker 4>Why is that so hard?

723
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:07.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's even more outrageous when you hear that Conic

724
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:10.960
<v Speaker 2>appealed the fourteen million dollar judgment, even though he was

725
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:12.519
<v Speaker 2>not going to be the one who had to personally

726
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:14.639
<v Speaker 2>pay the money. It was going to be taxpayer money.

727
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.360
<v Speaker 2>But he didn't want his reputation tarnished. He says, I

728
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:19.280
<v Speaker 2>have to do this so they won't think that I'm wrong.

729
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:21.639
<v Speaker 2>And it is a major shame that the Supreme Court

730
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:24.000
<v Speaker 2>ruled in his favor because I hate to say it,

731
00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:27.400
<v Speaker 2>but they were liable for Thompson's wrongful conviction. He intentionally

732
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:31.960
<v Speaker 2>suppressed evidence, he used, he orchestrated misconduct, so they should

733
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:34.079
<v Speaker 2>have been responsible for that money in paying it out

734
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:34.639
<v Speaker 2>to Thompson.

735
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:36.559
<v Speaker 3>I mean, you look at it when they take away

736
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.760
<v Speaker 3>people's like fifty years of productivity and like you know,

737
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:41.199
<v Speaker 3>you say, well they only.

738
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.000
<v Speaker 4>Served ten years. They have the rest of their life

739
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:43.960
<v Speaker 4>to make their money back.

740
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.320
<v Speaker 3>Listen, if you're convicted of murder and sentence to death row,

741
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:49.719
<v Speaker 3>I don't care if the Pope himself says you didn't

742
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:52.599
<v Speaker 3>do it, you are forever going to be tarnished with

743
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:54.559
<v Speaker 3>a reputation of maybe he did.

744
00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:55.920
<v Speaker 4>And people that are just.

745
00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:59.079
<v Speaker 3>Ignorant and don't know what you what happened, their life

746
00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:02.480
<v Speaker 3>is forever altered and stolen away from them.

747
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:03.679
<v Speaker 4>Who they could have been.

748
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:06.400
<v Speaker 3>Yes, they could have been in a lifestyle of crime. Yes,

749
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:08.400
<v Speaker 3>they could have been in a place where they shouldn't

750
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:11.480
<v Speaker 3>have been, and therefore, yes, they got falsely accused. But

751
00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:15.400
<v Speaker 3>who's to say that at eighteen they were irresponsible and

752
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:18.599
<v Speaker 3>immature and at twenty eight they weren't married with kids

753
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.440
<v Speaker 3>in a stable job, Like, who are you to know

754
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.800
<v Speaker 3>where their life was going and the rest of their

755
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.519
<v Speaker 3>life is going to be changed and tarnished and manipulated

756
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:31.960
<v Speaker 3>because of the label that at one time they were

757
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:35.199
<v Speaker 3>a murderer on death row. You can say they're innocent

758
00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:38.039
<v Speaker 3>all day long. You can say it's because of DNA acceneration.

759
00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:40.840
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of ignorant people who will say, oh.

760
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:42.480
<v Speaker 4>I don't know, I actually think he did it.

761
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:46.159
<v Speaker 2>In the end, the District Attorney's office barely faced any

762
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:48.760
<v Speaker 2>repercussions at all for what they did to Shrief Cussin.

763
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.599
<v Speaker 2>The worst that happened is that the lead prosecutor, Roger Jordan,

764
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:56.119
<v Speaker 2>wound up receiving a three month suspension for misconduct, but

765
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:57.920
<v Speaker 2>would not have to serve it as long as he

766
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:01.440
<v Speaker 2>didn't commit any more ethical violations year. So yeah, it

767
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:04.599
<v Speaker 2>was essentially nothing more than a sentence of probation. But

768
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:07.119
<v Speaker 2>believe it or not, Jordan still had the nerve to

769
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:10.000
<v Speaker 2>attempt to appeal this ruling and complain that it tarnished

770
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.679
<v Speaker 2>his record and could affect his future employment prospects. Well,

771
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:15.880
<v Speaker 2>if he doesn't like it, maybe he shouldn't try to

772
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:19.960
<v Speaker 2>execute innocent seventeen year old kids. It's mind boggling to

773
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:22.480
<v Speaker 2>me that Jordan would believe that a three month suspension

774
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:26.599
<v Speaker 2>was unfair punishment for something that egregious, I mean putting

775
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:29.719
<v Speaker 2>aside the unethical stuff like failing to turn over evidence

776
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.760
<v Speaker 2>to the defense. It was alleged that Jordan flat out

777
00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:36.239
<v Speaker 2>doctored a tape recorded interview with Shreif's coach, Eric White,

778
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:40.039
<v Speaker 2>and illegally detained three of Shreif's alibi witnesses at the

779
00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:43.000
<v Speaker 2>District Attorney's office so they would miss their schedule time

780
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:46.519
<v Speaker 2>to testify at trial. Those are the actions of someone

781
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:49.440
<v Speaker 2>who clearly knew they were railroading an innocent person, but

782
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:52.719
<v Speaker 2>did not care. Even though Harry Conic Senior was not

783
00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:55.480
<v Speaker 2>directly involved in this trial, you can see why he

784
00:40:55.559 --> 00:40:58.239
<v Speaker 2>was named as a defendant in the civil suit because

785
00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:01.360
<v Speaker 2>he created a culture where his prosecutors believed that they

786
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:05.360
<v Speaker 2>could get away with stuff like this without consequences. Now,

787
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:07.880
<v Speaker 2>I've seen a number of cases where the state offered

788
00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:11.199
<v Speaker 2>plea deals to wrongly convicted people which would allow them

789
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:14.000
<v Speaker 2>to plead guilty and walk out of prison. It's a

790
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:17.599
<v Speaker 2>convenient tactic which allows them to save face without actually

791
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:19.960
<v Speaker 2>having to admit they made a mistake and convicted an

792
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.360
<v Speaker 2>innocent person. The Orleans Parish District Attorney's office attempted to

793
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:27.039
<v Speaker 2>do the same thing with Sharif, and he turned it down,

794
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:31.559
<v Speaker 2>But remarkably, it was literally only hours later when KLNIC

795
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:34.920
<v Speaker 2>publicly announced that they were dropping the case. You see,

796
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.760
<v Speaker 2>the main reason inmates are sometimes willing to accept these

797
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.320
<v Speaker 2>plea deals is because it means they can immediately walk

798
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:43.280
<v Speaker 2>out of prison. But no matter what, Sharif was still

799
00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:45.400
<v Speaker 2>going to have to serve more years on the armed

800
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:48.559
<v Speaker 2>robbery charges, So what motivation would he have had to

801
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:51.599
<v Speaker 2>plead guilty to murder? So yeah, this was a pretty

802
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:53.559
<v Speaker 2>pathetic attempt at damage control.

803
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:57.599
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so everyone who's listening, if you ever want to

804
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:03.440
<v Speaker 3>cry and feel angry and in fired, google Dewey Bozella's

805
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:07.800
<v Speaker 3>sp speech where he wins an SP for the Courage

806
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:12.119
<v Speaker 3>Award and Dewey Bozella. It was a wrongfully convicted individual

807
00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:15.079
<v Speaker 3>who was a boxer. It was a way that in prison,

808
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:18.239
<v Speaker 3>he said, I thought I was going to literally lose

809
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 3>myself and maybe literally die if I didn't find an

810
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:25.199
<v Speaker 3>outlet for my anger for being wrongfully convicted. He had

811
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:29.639
<v Speaker 3>been accused of killing an elderly woman I believe in

812
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:33.960
<v Speaker 3>the Bronx, and he went to prison for her murder.

813
00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:37.000
<v Speaker 3>And there was a time where he was married to

814
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:39.400
<v Speaker 3>an amazing woman named Trina, who helped him fight for

815
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:42.159
<v Speaker 3>his freedom. But there was a time where he was

816
00:42:42.199 --> 00:42:45.199
<v Speaker 3>approached with Trina aware of the deal, and they said,

817
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.519
<v Speaker 3>plead guilty to this case and you can leave today

818
00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:51.840
<v Speaker 3>and go home to your wife. And she actually begged

819
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:54.920
<v Speaker 3>him come home to me, like, I know you didn't

820
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.119
<v Speaker 3>do it. We've been fighting this for decades.

821
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:01.559
<v Speaker 4>Please please plead guty to this. And he said, there

822
00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:02.960
<v Speaker 4>is no fiber.

823
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:05.599
<v Speaker 3>In my bean as a man, as a human being,

824
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:08.480
<v Speaker 3>who can say I not only killed someone, but like

825
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:11.920
<v Speaker 3>I abused an elderly woman and took her life. Zero

826
00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:16.119
<v Speaker 3>Ever will I say yes, I did this? Literally Trina

827
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:18.920
<v Speaker 3>in the video of the SB speech, she says, my

828
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:21.840
<v Speaker 3>heart was broken because he said no to me, like

829
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:24.079
<v Speaker 3>it wasn't worth him saying I did it and he

830
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:27.239
<v Speaker 3>could have been free. He said no, his integrity and

831
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:30.079
<v Speaker 3>saying I didn't hurt her was more important to him,

832
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:31.400
<v Speaker 3>and he went on to fight.

833
00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:32.039
<v Speaker 4>I want to say.

834
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:35.159
<v Speaker 3>He was in prison for like twenty three years, and

835
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:40.719
<v Speaker 3>sure enough, one day they the Innocents Project goes to

836
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:44.880
<v Speaker 3>the old an old detective's house and says, hey, do

837
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:46.719
<v Speaker 3>you know the Dewey Bozella case? And he said, I

838
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.079
<v Speaker 3>retired like fifteen years ago, and the only case I

839
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.880
<v Speaker 3>ever kept, the only file I ever took home, which

840
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:55.840
<v Speaker 3>I shouldn't have, was Dewey Bozella's because that man is innocent,

841
00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:58.679
<v Speaker 3>and he joined the fight to help free this man.

842
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:03.440
<v Speaker 3>But oh, oh my god, doesn't hurt that. Matthew McConaughey

843
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:08.039
<v Speaker 3>narrates the entire video. But Dewey Bosella, I want to

844
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:10.039
<v Speaker 3>hug his face. I just want to I don't know,

845
00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:12.599
<v Speaker 3>I just want to cry and celebrate with him. But

846
00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:14.599
<v Speaker 3>same kind of thing they did, the same thing with

847
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:18.280
<v Speaker 3>the West Memphis three, where you had Damien Eckles on

848
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:21.920
<v Speaker 3>death row and his two accomplices were serving life in prison,

849
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:25.960
<v Speaker 3>and the two young men that were serving life in prison,

850
00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:28.440
<v Speaker 3>they said, I'm never going to confess to something I

851
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:32.079
<v Speaker 3>didn't do, and Damien Eckles said, that's easy for you guys,

852
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:35.639
<v Speaker 3>because you're not facing death. I am going to be

853
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:39.599
<v Speaker 3>killed for something we didn't do. Can you please take

854
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:42.159
<v Speaker 3>the Alford plea in that situation.

855
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:43.639
<v Speaker 4>You gotta say you did it.

856
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:45.440
<v Speaker 3>You gotta say I did it, but I didn't do

857
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:49.440
<v Speaker 3>it with an Alfred play and he said, my life

858
00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:52.119
<v Speaker 3>is on the line. They're going to kill me. And

859
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:54.199
<v Speaker 3>that's what drove the other two boys to say, I'll

860
00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:56.360
<v Speaker 3>take an Alfred plea with you and basically say we

861
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:58.440
<v Speaker 3>did it without saying we did it.

862
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:00.440
<v Speaker 4>It makes me so mad.

863
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:03.719
<v Speaker 3>The only reason for that is to protect themselves from

864
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:07.920
<v Speaker 3>financial contributions to a civil lawsuit that they would lose

865
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:08.760
<v Speaker 3>as a state.

866
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.960
<v Speaker 4>How dare you not say, hey, evidence shows you didn't

867
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:15.199
<v Speaker 4>do it. Shame on us.

868
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:18.000
<v Speaker 3>Sorry, we saw your entire life and your future life

869
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.800
<v Speaker 3>from you. Here's a little bit of money that might

870
00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:21.719
<v Speaker 3>help you along the way.

871
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:22.840
<v Speaker 4>Fourteen million.

872
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:25.840
<v Speaker 3>Guys, When you hear that that guy was awarded fourteen

873
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:29.639
<v Speaker 3>million dollars, that is not normal. If you look up

874
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:33.400
<v Speaker 3>state maximums. If you look up what's required. Some states

875
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:36.960
<v Speaker 3>require DNA to prove you didn't do it. Some states

876
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:40.519
<v Speaker 3>require that you didn't contribute to your guilt whatsoever. AKA,

877
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:43.320
<v Speaker 3>if you make a false confession, you get zero dollars.

878
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:47.920
<v Speaker 3>So there's tons of loopholes where the state says I

879
00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:50.599
<v Speaker 3>don't want to give a dime to this person. In fact,

880
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:53.360
<v Speaker 3>I'll fight through the Supreme Court not to pay them.

881
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:58.920
<v Speaker 3>And it's just bad. There are people's lives at stake.

882
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.920
<v Speaker 3>There's fathers and daughters and wives and husbands sitting on

883
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:07.360
<v Speaker 3>life in prison and death row situations, and if we

884
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.639
<v Speaker 3>got it wrong, we owe them.

885
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've heard of the Douey Bozela case, and there

886
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:15.559
<v Speaker 2>are countless examples of people like that who say that

887
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:18.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to plead guilty to something I didn't do,

888
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:20.639
<v Speaker 2>so I'm willing to stay in prison longer until I

889
00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:23.000
<v Speaker 2>clear my name. But there are other cases where people

890
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.039
<v Speaker 2>are like, well, I just want to get out of prison.

891
00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:27.360
<v Speaker 2>I can't take it anymore. So that's why they take

892
00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:29.639
<v Speaker 2>al Ford, please, and why they're willing to plead guilty

893
00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:32.360
<v Speaker 2>even though they maintain their innocence. What was Sharifa was

894
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:35.280
<v Speaker 2>particularly ridiculous because he was not going to walk out

895
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:37.199
<v Speaker 2>of prison. He would still have to serve time on

896
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:40.239
<v Speaker 2>arm robbery charges, which he claimed he didn't do, so

897
00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:42.320
<v Speaker 2>it seemed pretty pathetic that they were going to try

898
00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:45.039
<v Speaker 2>to save face by having offering him a guilty plea,

899
00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:47.119
<v Speaker 2>even though he pretty much gained nothing.

900
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:52.679
<v Speaker 1>Anyway. Even though many people believe the racism played a

901
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:56.239
<v Speaker 1>role in Sharif's wrongful conviction, it should be noted that

902
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.320
<v Speaker 1>the jury who found him guilty actually consisted of ten

903
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:03.000
<v Speaker 1>blacks and whites. You might be wondering how they could

904
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:06.639
<v Speaker 1>have reached that verdict with so much convincing alibi evidence

905
00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:11.159
<v Speaker 1>to support Sharif's innocence, but hearing testimony from a traumatized

906
00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:14.559
<v Speaker 1>victim who personally witnessed the crime can have a strong

907
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:19.840
<v Speaker 1>impact on juris. Anyone who follows wrongful conviction cases knows

908
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:23.519
<v Speaker 1>that eyewitness testimony can be unreliable and has played a

909
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:26.320
<v Speaker 1>role in sending a number of innocent people to prison.

910
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:30.320
<v Speaker 1>But back in nineteen ninety six, the average jury member

911
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:33.719
<v Speaker 1>probably wouldn't have known this, and when they saw Connie

912
00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:37.320
<v Speaker 1>Babin point to Sharif in the courtroom, and positively identify

913
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:40.480
<v Speaker 1>him as the man who shot Michael Girardi. I'm sure

914
00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:43.719
<v Speaker 1>they had no reason to doubt her, particularly since her

915
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:46.519
<v Speaker 1>earlier statements about not getting a look at the killer

916
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:49.480
<v Speaker 1>were suppressed at the trial. It would be easy to

917
00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:53.519
<v Speaker 1>feel angry towards Connie for identifying Sharife, but let's not

918
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:56.920
<v Speaker 1>forget that she went through a pretty traumatic ordeal, and

919
00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:59.400
<v Speaker 1>I'd say there's a good chance that she was pressured

920
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:03.079
<v Speaker 1>or manipul related by investigators. We've seen a couple of

921
00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:07.920
<v Speaker 1>wrongful conviction cases in which eyewitnesses have recounted their original testimony,

922
00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:11.480
<v Speaker 1>claiming that even though they weren't certain that the defendant

923
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:14.440
<v Speaker 1>was actually the person they saw committing the crime, the

924
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.920
<v Speaker 1>police assured them that they had the right person, so

925
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.639
<v Speaker 1>if they could still identify the defendant a trial, it

926
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:23.880
<v Speaker 1>would strengthen their case and improve their chances of conviction.

927
00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:28.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe Connie was knowingly implicating an innocent person,

928
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:31.400
<v Speaker 1>as I think she genuinely believed the police arrested the

929
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:35.039
<v Speaker 1>right guy and probably did not expect her testimony to

930
00:48:35.079 --> 00:48:38.719
<v Speaker 1>be the crux of the prosecution's entire case. I don't

931
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:40.320
<v Speaker 1>mean to make light of the whole thing. But this

932
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:43.159
<v Speaker 1>situation reminds me of the scene in the comedy My

933
00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:46.800
<v Speaker 1>Cousin Benny, where Joe Pashi Cross examines a witness who

934
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:50.920
<v Speaker 1>positively identified the perpetrators even though she had bad eyesight

935
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.159
<v Speaker 1>and wore very thick glasses. People should not be sent

936
00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:55.800
<v Speaker 1>to death row over things like this.

937
00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:00.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, the judge is like, what did you say that?

938
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:05.320
<v Speaker 4>Like the two youths Okay, sorry, your honor the two Uh.

939
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:11.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes, It's so true when you look at this poor witness,

940
00:49:11.239 --> 00:49:13.599
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I have just as much empathy for her

941
00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:16.800
<v Speaker 3>as I have for Sharif in this situation. We've seen

942
00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:20.280
<v Speaker 3>this a million times. Same with like Jennifer Thompson in

943
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:24.119
<v Speaker 3>the Ronald Cotton case. Right where you have somebody who

944
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:25.800
<v Speaker 3>has been a victim of a crime.

945
00:49:26.440 --> 00:49:27.039
<v Speaker 4>They're in an.

946
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:30.400
<v Speaker 3>Incredibly traumatic situation, and you have law enforcement officials who

947
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:33.639
<v Speaker 3>are the safe people who are good, and you've been

948
00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:36.639
<v Speaker 3>dealt with a group of people who are bad. And

949
00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:38.960
<v Speaker 3>so when the good guys say, hey, help me out,

950
00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:41.480
<v Speaker 3>let me help you, let me give justice to this

951
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.159
<v Speaker 3>person you were with her, to yourself, and they lay

952
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:48.719
<v Speaker 3>out exactly what they they believe happened, and they're able

953
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:52.639
<v Speaker 3>to convince a witness that, yes, this reality the police

954
00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:56.599
<v Speaker 3>have must have been what happened. They falsely create a

955
00:49:56.679 --> 00:49:59.679
<v Speaker 3>memory in that eyewitness his mind. And it's really sad

956
00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:03.440
<v Speaker 3>here because again she told the truth. She said, Uh,

957
00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:08.039
<v Speaker 3>it was dark. These were some young black guys. I

958
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:08.880
<v Speaker 3>couldn't see them.

959
00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:09.880
<v Speaker 4>It was really dark.

960
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:11.960
<v Speaker 3>I didn't have my classes on, I didn't have any

961
00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:15.639
<v Speaker 3>contacts in Uh. She's like basically telling the police like,

962
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:18.519
<v Speaker 3>I'm not that much help, and yet they craft a

963
00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:22.039
<v Speaker 3>story and they convince her, and they change and alter

964
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:25.280
<v Speaker 3>her memory, and they confirm her memory, and they confirm

965
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:28.440
<v Speaker 3>her memory, and they confirm her memory, and they tell

966
00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:31.119
<v Speaker 3>her that by being so strong and so brave, that

967
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:35.639
<v Speaker 3>she's gonna help bring justice to her dates killer. And

968
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:37.519
<v Speaker 3>by the time she gets a trial, it's been a

969
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:40.199
<v Speaker 3>year of her thinking like, it's this all hinges on me,

970
00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:42.440
<v Speaker 3>and I've been so empowered because these people are so

971
00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:44.599
<v Speaker 3>good to me, and I'm going to get justice for

972
00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:48.159
<v Speaker 3>my date. And she testifies with one hundred percent confidence.

973
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:52.639
<v Speaker 3>But remember she was honest at the beginning and she

974
00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:55.519
<v Speaker 3>said I'm probably not the best witness. They convince her

975
00:50:55.519 --> 00:50:58.679
<v Speaker 3>that she is, and that makes me so mad because

976
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.159
<v Speaker 3>she also becomes a victim who, for the rest of

977
00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:03.719
<v Speaker 3>her life is going to carry a weight of saying

978
00:51:04.119 --> 00:51:07.920
<v Speaker 3>did I cause? Am I the reason why this poor

979
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:12.159
<v Speaker 3>kid also really lost his life? Because the man I

980
00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:15.360
<v Speaker 3>was standing next to lost his and I basically caused.

981
00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:16.760
<v Speaker 4>Another person to lose theirs. She did not.

982
00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:19.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm not saying that, but that's a guilt that she

983
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.760
<v Speaker 3>would carry, a psychological damage that she has to carry

984
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:25.360
<v Speaker 3>because these people didn't care about her. If they didn't

985
00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:27.760
<v Speaker 3>care about the victim, and they didn't care about Sharif

986
00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:30.119
<v Speaker 3>if they did, they would have said, ooh, I need

987
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:32.400
<v Speaker 3>to pause because this poor witness is not giving me

988
00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:33.000
<v Speaker 3>what I need.

989
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:36.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, as far as I can tell, Connie Babbittt is

990
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:39.199
<v Speaker 2>pretty much shied away from the spotlight completely ever since

991
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:41.159
<v Speaker 2>the trial took place. And who can really blame her

992
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:43.760
<v Speaker 2>because I'm sure she feels awful because she was probably

993
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.920
<v Speaker 2>unaware of all the other corruption and misconduct going on

994
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.719
<v Speaker 2>in this case. So when she eventually found out that

995
00:51:50.199 --> 00:51:53.239
<v Speaker 2>the person she identified was probably innocent, I'm sure it

996
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:56.360
<v Speaker 2>was a pretty traumatic ordeal and I can only imagine

997
00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:58.760
<v Speaker 2>why she wouldn't want to talk about it to this day.

998
00:51:59.239 --> 00:52:01.760
<v Speaker 2>So let's talk about about James Rowl, the guy who

999
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:05.239
<v Speaker 2>originally implicated Sharif, to begin with, I do not think

1000
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:07.719
<v Speaker 2>anyone was expecting him to recant his story on the

1001
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:10.639
<v Speaker 2>witness stand and say he lied about Charif, bragging that

1002
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:13.559
<v Speaker 2>he committed the murder. When Rawl admitted that he was

1003
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:16.800
<v Speaker 2>facing eight hundred years in prison for multiple armed robberies

1004
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:20.000
<v Speaker 2>but was offered a lesser sentence for testifying against Sharif,

1005
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:24.679
<v Speaker 2>you can understand how this situation likely unfolded. Testimony from

1006
00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:29.360
<v Speaker 2>unreliable criminal informants is another primary cause of wrongful convictions,

1007
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:33.159
<v Speaker 2>as demonstrated by the afore mentioned John Thompson case, where

1008
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:36.320
<v Speaker 2>the real killer, Kevin Freeman, made a deal to testify

1009
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:39.599
<v Speaker 2>against him in exchange for a lighter sentence. I don't

1010
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:42.559
<v Speaker 2>think the lead detective in this case, Anthony Small, ever

1011
00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:45.679
<v Speaker 2>faced any repercussions for his conduct, but some of the

1012
00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:49.639
<v Speaker 2>allegations against him are insane. In order to secure the

1013
00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:53.280
<v Speaker 2>uress warrant for Sharif, he completely fabricated two other eye

1014
00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:56.199
<v Speaker 2>witnesses to the crime who did not even exist, and

1015
00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:59.320
<v Speaker 2>he supposedly phoned in a tip about Sharif to crimestoppers

1016
00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:02.719
<v Speaker 2>so he collect the reward. I mean, it's bad enough

1017
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:05.480
<v Speaker 2>that a police officer could railroad an innocent person for

1018
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:08.199
<v Speaker 2>the purposes of closing a case, but when they're also

1019
00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:11.840
<v Speaker 2>profiting and receiving reward money for their actions, that shows

1020
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:14.119
<v Speaker 2>an almost cartoonish level of corruption.

1021
00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:18.320
<v Speaker 3>Oh, one thousand percent. One thousand percent. When you look

1022
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.039
<v Speaker 3>at this idea that you have things like tip lines

1023
00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:26.000
<v Speaker 3>where people fraudulently make reports and they lead to progression

1024
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.639
<v Speaker 3>in the case, and or you use jail house informants

1025
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:31.840
<v Speaker 3>and those kinds of things. When you have other criminals

1026
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:35.159
<v Speaker 3>or individuals that you're making deals with, you're providing money,

1027
00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:39.079
<v Speaker 3>you're simplifying their sentence. You know, one in five wrongful

1028
00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:42.519
<v Speaker 3>convictions has the use of a jailhouse snitch or another

1029
00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:45.360
<v Speaker 3>criminal who's involved in some other crime that's getting an

1030
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:50.679
<v Speaker 3>incentive for sharing information that was either planted akai like,

1031
00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:53.559
<v Speaker 3>positioned you in a cell and then I asked.

1032
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:55.079
<v Speaker 4>You, Hey, did you get that info we fed you?

1033
00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:57.440
<v Speaker 3>All I have to do is say, yeah, you told

1034
00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:00.320
<v Speaker 3>me to ask about this murder. I did, and here's

1035
00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:03.480
<v Speaker 3>what they told me. But you already know the information anyway.

1036
00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:05.480
<v Speaker 3>I mean, a corrupt officer will say, like, make sure

1037
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:07.239
<v Speaker 3>they tell you that the girl was x y and

1038
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:10.159
<v Speaker 3>z or the man was x y and z, and

1039
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:11.840
<v Speaker 3>therefore I just come back and tell you what you

1040
00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:14.280
<v Speaker 3>already told me and I get a reduced sentence, I

1041
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:17.800
<v Speaker 3>get money, I get a charge dropped, whatever it is.

1042
00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:21.719
<v Speaker 3>And what's interesting is that in many jurisdictions, the prosecutor

1043
00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:24.400
<v Speaker 3>does not have to disclose any kind of reward that

1044
00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:26.880
<v Speaker 3>was given for any information that was received.

1045
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:31.199
<v Speaker 1>As bad as it is to say, even though he

1046
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.840
<v Speaker 1>went through a terrible ordeal, Sharif actually fared better than

1047
00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:38.159
<v Speaker 1>many others in his situation as he only spent two

1048
00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:40.960
<v Speaker 1>and a half years on death row, as opposed to

1049
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:43.719
<v Speaker 1>someone like John Thompson, who had to endure this for

1050
00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:47.880
<v Speaker 1>eighteen years before he walked free. Well, the situation was

1051
00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:51.679
<v Speaker 1>extra terrifying for Sharif because of his young age, as

1052
00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:54.400
<v Speaker 1>he did not even understand how the death penalty and

1053
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:58.079
<v Speaker 1>disappeals process worked at that time. Since he was never

1054
00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:01.159
<v Speaker 1>given an execution date. Time I'm on death row was

1055
00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:04.480
<v Speaker 1>filled with uncertainty about how long he had left to live.

1056
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:08.519
<v Speaker 1>But there's one tragic aspect to this case which always

1057
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:12.840
<v Speaker 1>gets overlooked. Will Shariffe is most definitely a victim. His

1058
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.760
<v Speaker 1>story wound up taking a lot of the attention away

1059
00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:20.079
<v Speaker 1>from Michael Girardi, the person who lost his life. Sadly,

1060
00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:23.239
<v Speaker 1>one of the biggest side effects of wrongful conviction cases

1061
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:26.519
<v Speaker 1>is that the actual murder victim often gets overlooked.

1062
00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:28.280
<v Speaker 4>If you research the.

1063
00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Story online, it's very difficult to find any photographs of

1064
00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:35.199
<v Speaker 1>Michael Girardi, as the only place we've seen them are

1065
00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:38.880
<v Speaker 1>on a YouTube documentary about this case, containing snippets of

1066
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:43.280
<v Speaker 1>old news segments which display Michael's picture. These segments featured

1067
00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:46.599
<v Speaker 1>interviews with Michael's parents, who seem pretty devastated by the

1068
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:49.559
<v Speaker 1>whole ordeal, and I'm sure it must have been difficult

1069
00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:52.440
<v Speaker 1>for them to think that they received closure when Sharife

1070
00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:55.639
<v Speaker 1>was convicted of Michael's murder, only to find out that

1071
00:55:55.719 --> 00:55:59.360
<v Speaker 1>they got the wrong person. There really isn't much information

1072
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:02.239
<v Speaker 1>out there Michael, but from what I can tell, he

1073
00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:05.199
<v Speaker 1>sounded like a sweet guy. It seems like he had

1074
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:08.440
<v Speaker 1>really fallen for Connie and even told his mother that

1075
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:10.599
<v Speaker 1>this may be the one before they even went on

1076
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:13.519
<v Speaker 1>their first date. When Michael showed up for the date,

1077
00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:16.400
<v Speaker 1>he gave Connie a red rose and things seemed to

1078
00:56:16.400 --> 00:56:20.199
<v Speaker 1>be going really well until an unspeakable tragedy took place.

1079
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:23.840
<v Speaker 1>I think it demonstrates Michael's character that when he saw

1080
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:27.440
<v Speaker 1>the three blackmailes approaching him and felt threatened, his first

1081
00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:29.679
<v Speaker 1>instinct was to turn to Connie and to tell her

1082
00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:33.159
<v Speaker 1>to run away, a decision which probably saved her life

1083
00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:36.239
<v Speaker 1>since she may have also been shot if she remained there.

1084
00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:40.239
<v Speaker 1>This was a completely senseless crime because I'm sure that

1085
00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:43.159
<v Speaker 1>if the perpetrator simply ordered Michael to hand over his

1086
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:46.320
<v Speaker 1>wallet at gunpoint, he likely would have done so without

1087
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:49.400
<v Speaker 1>any resistance, and there was no need to kill him.

1088
00:56:49.719 --> 00:56:52.559
<v Speaker 1>This really isn't a complex crime to analyze, as it

1089
00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:55.760
<v Speaker 1>appears the only motive was robbery and Michael was just

1090
00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:59.039
<v Speaker 1>an unfortunate, random victim in the wrong place at the

1091
00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:02.159
<v Speaker 1>wrong time. But who could have been responsible?

1092
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:04.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's really sad.

1093
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:08.400
<v Speaker 3>Like you said, his family is a victim, just like

1094
00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:11.400
<v Speaker 3>the eyewitness is a victim, just like Sharif is a victim,

1095
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:13.320
<v Speaker 3>and just like the whole community of New Orleans is

1096
00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:18.800
<v Speaker 3>a victim. You can't falsify information and give people a

1097
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:22.679
<v Speaker 3>false sense of security and justice and healing in those

1098
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:24.559
<v Speaker 3>kinds of things, and then rip it back out from

1099
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:27.199
<v Speaker 3>under them when you're proven to be a fraud and

1100
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:29.920
<v Speaker 3>someone who didn't have any kind of concern about the

1101
00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:33.599
<v Speaker 3>individual who was murdered, the individual who was being held

1102
00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:36.920
<v Speaker 3>as the lynch pen in this entire case, the poor eyewitness,

1103
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:39.800
<v Speaker 3>and especially this kid who all of a sudden, the

1104
00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:43.519
<v Speaker 3>family has been rejoicing in certain ways of saying like, yes,

1105
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:45.639
<v Speaker 3>it's sad that this kid got caught up in this,

1106
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:48.000
<v Speaker 3>but he killed our baby and he's getting justice. It

1107
00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:50.519
<v Speaker 3>is what it is. The court decided that we can

1108
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:53.159
<v Speaker 3>move forward and try to regroup and build a life

1109
00:57:53.159 --> 00:57:56.159
<v Speaker 3>without our baby in it. And then all of a sudden,

1110
00:57:56.719 --> 00:58:00.599
<v Speaker 3>the eyewitness, the family, the community finds out what if

1111
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:02.920
<v Speaker 3>they got the wrong person. Oh my lord, they got

1112
00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:06.960
<v Speaker 3>the wrong person. And you have to undo all of

1113
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:11.280
<v Speaker 3>the fake promise you gave to everybody. You have to

1114
00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:13.920
<v Speaker 3>undo the justice that you gave to everybody. You have

1115
00:58:13.960 --> 00:58:17.000
<v Speaker 3>to undo the safety and security that you gave to everybody,

1116
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:18.760
<v Speaker 3>and say, oh, not only do we mess up, but

1117
00:58:18.760 --> 00:58:22.320
<v Speaker 3>we actually might have purposefully lied and cheated to get

1118
00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:26.000
<v Speaker 3>you this outcome. It's just a whole another like my

1119
00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:31.559
<v Speaker 3>whole just world perception kind of crumbles and it's so

1120
00:58:31.719 --> 00:58:35.239
<v Speaker 3>much more devastating than people acknowledge. Right, it's not just

1121
00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:39.079
<v Speaker 3>the offender, it is people like the victim, the eyewitnesses,

1122
00:58:39.400 --> 00:58:43.199
<v Speaker 3>the surviving family, those kinds of things. They become victims

1123
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:46.679
<v Speaker 3>in a game that these people are playing with criminal behavior,

1124
00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:48.320
<v Speaker 3>and it's just wrong.

1125
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, it turns out that before Sharif was arrested, investigators

1126
00:58:53.360 --> 00:58:56.199
<v Speaker 2>had turned up a fairly promising lead which pointed towards

1127
00:58:56.239 --> 00:58:59.960
<v Speaker 2>some alternate suspects. On the night of the murder, Crimestopper

1128
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:02.039
<v Speaker 2>received a tip from an eye witness who was in

1129
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:05.440
<v Speaker 2>the French Quarter when Michael's shooting took place. Since the

1130
00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:07.840
<v Speaker 2>man was a bird watcher, he often carried around his

1131
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:10.199
<v Speaker 2>binoculars and used them to catch a glimpse of the

1132
00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:13.719
<v Speaker 2>license plate number on the perpetrator's getaway car. The number

1133
00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:16.840
<v Speaker 2>wound up matching a red nineteen eighty nine Ford Escort

1134
00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:20.679
<v Speaker 2>registered to a woman named Krystal Baham. Just over a

1135
00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:24.480
<v Speaker 2>week later, crimestoppers received another tip from an anonymous caller

1136
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:28.800
<v Speaker 2>who implicated three potential suspects in the crime, Antonio Harper,

1137
00:59:29.079 --> 00:59:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Derek Smith, and a third person known only as Brandon.

1138
00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:36.960
<v Speaker 2>When investigators attempted to track down Antonio Harper, they discovered

1139
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:40.760
<v Speaker 2>a red Ford escort parked outside his address. It had

1140
00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:43.639
<v Speaker 2>the same license number provided by the bird watcher, and

1141
00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:46.800
<v Speaker 2>it turned out that the registered owner, Krystel Baham, was

1142
00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:51.079
<v Speaker 2>Derek Smith's mother. However, once Charif was charged with the crime,

1143
00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:54.840
<v Speaker 2>the investigation against these three suspects was dropped, and of

1144
00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:57.639
<v Speaker 2>course none of this information was ever turned over to

1145
00:59:57.679 --> 01:00:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Shreef's defence team at his trial. Now there really is

1146
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:03.960
<v Speaker 2>a much information out there about the alternate suspects. But

1147
01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:06.400
<v Speaker 2>I did manage to find an obituary for a New

1148
01:00:06.519 --> 01:00:09.639
<v Speaker 2>Orleans resident named Derek Smith who died in December of

1149
01:00:09.679 --> 01:00:13.280
<v Speaker 2>twenty sixteen at the age of forty. Since it listed

1150
01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:16.679
<v Speaker 2>Crystal Baham as his mother, this is definitely the same guy.

1151
01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:21.199
<v Speaker 2>Interestingly enough, I also found an obituary for a Robert Harper,

1152
01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:23.920
<v Speaker 2>a New Orleans man who passed away in September of

1153
01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:27.880
<v Speaker 2>twenty seventeen, and lists Crystal Baham as his sister, So

1154
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:30.800
<v Speaker 2>I can only assume that he's related to Antonio Harper.

1155
01:00:31.719 --> 01:00:35.239
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so all this is withheld from evidence. But also,

1156
01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:38.360
<v Speaker 3>don't you guys remember that one of the individuals actually

1157
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:41.719
<v Speaker 3>involved in this case had had people call in a

1158
01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:45.320
<v Speaker 3>crime stoppers tip that was implicating sharief so that they

1159
01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:48.639
<v Speaker 3>could collect and split money. Was it a detective or

1160
01:00:48.760 --> 01:00:49.840
<v Speaker 3>the prosecutor himself?

1161
01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:50.599
<v Speaker 4>Well, who was that?

1162
01:00:50.920 --> 01:00:53.440
<v Speaker 2>It was Detective Anthony Small. The guy who phoned in

1163
01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:56.280
<v Speaker 2>the tip was a friend of Small's and Small was

1164
01:00:56.320 --> 01:00:58.320
<v Speaker 2>able to use it as like leverage in order to

1165
01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:01.159
<v Speaker 2>get the arrest warrant for Shreef. And then afterwards his

1166
01:01:01.239 --> 01:01:04.199
<v Speaker 2>friend collected the reward and then Small split it with them.

1167
01:01:04.320 --> 01:01:06.480
<v Speaker 2>So it was just like a very It's a corropt

1168
01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:09.079
<v Speaker 2>scheme where he not only sent an innocent person to prison,

1169
01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:10.559
<v Speaker 2>but he made money off the whole thing.

1170
01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:11.880
<v Speaker 4>Incredible.

1171
01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:15.400
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So you've got that kind of erroneous stuff happening.

1172
01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:18.119
<v Speaker 3>You also have real tips that are called in that

1173
01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:21.400
<v Speaker 3>aren't followed up with. And again, when you have a

1174
01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:25.559
<v Speaker 3>narrative and a tunnel vision, than saying we've made our claim,

1175
01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:27.960
<v Speaker 3>this is who we've said did it, I don't care

1176
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:31.119
<v Speaker 3>what information comes across our desk. We need to disprove it,

1177
01:01:31.400 --> 01:01:34.320
<v Speaker 3>we need to hide it, we need to manipulate it

1178
01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:37.960
<v Speaker 3>so that it doesn't work in this case. Why right,

1179
01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:40.360
<v Speaker 3>It's really interesting when you look at this idea that

1180
01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:43.559
<v Speaker 3>these three suspects were called in and there was information

1181
01:01:43.599 --> 01:01:46.840
<v Speaker 3>that maybe just maybe someone else did it, or that

1182
01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.360
<v Speaker 3>there was information that other people should at least be explored.

1183
01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:51.519
<v Speaker 4>It was all shut down. It's crazy.

1184
01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you think to yourselves, would it just be easier

1185
01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:56.480
<v Speaker 2>to find the guys who actually did it instead of

1186
01:01:56.519 --> 01:01:58.960
<v Speaker 2>like running around in circles trying to fabricate a case

1187
01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:00.159
<v Speaker 2>against an innocent case.

1188
01:02:01.719 --> 01:02:03.519
<v Speaker 3>And what to do to your community when you don't

1189
01:02:03.880 --> 01:02:06.440
<v Speaker 3>like what does it do for the community. When you

1190
01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:08.960
<v Speaker 3>do not do that, you are setting other murders up

1191
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:09.679
<v Speaker 3>for success.

1192
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:10.719
<v Speaker 4>This person got.

1193
01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:12.760
<v Speaker 3>Away with it before they know they can do it again.

1194
01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:15.920
<v Speaker 3>It creates a brazen sense of security for that person.

1195
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:20.400
<v Speaker 3>And then again, you robbed a baby. You robbed a

1196
01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:23.039
<v Speaker 3>baby of their life, and like you said, yes, he

1197
01:02:23.079 --> 01:02:25.800
<v Speaker 3>went on to make other mistakes. What do you expect

1198
01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:27.760
<v Speaker 3>when you take a sixteen year old kid who didn't

1199
01:02:27.800 --> 01:02:30.960
<v Speaker 3>have resources to start with, who didn't necessarily have good

1200
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:33.320
<v Speaker 3>examples to start with, You put him in prison with

1201
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:38.559
<v Speaker 3>a bunch of adult men who are dangerous, scary, violent

1202
01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:41.960
<v Speaker 3>people who teach you to survive in prison by being

1203
01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:46.360
<v Speaker 3>dangerous and violent, and then you release him with a

1204
01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:48.599
<v Speaker 3>like a hangar over his head that says, hey, I'm

1205
01:02:48.639 --> 01:02:51.760
<v Speaker 3>a murderer even though they released me and said I'm not,

1206
01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:55.719
<v Speaker 3>and you expect him to be successful, like, of course

1207
01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:58.440
<v Speaker 3>he took his boss's identifications that I got babies to feed,

1208
01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:00.519
<v Speaker 3>I need help. No one will trust me or hire

1209
01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:03.440
<v Speaker 3>me for a wage I'm worthy of. It's oh, it

1210
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:06.000
<v Speaker 3>just makes me mad. I'm a little passionate about it.

1211
01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:09.280
<v Speaker 3>If you can't imagine that, yeah, we noticed, Yes.

1212
01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:12.519
<v Speaker 1>No, I totally get it. I think we've got prisons

1213
01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:16.440
<v Speaker 1>that are focused on punishment and not rehabilitation. You put

1214
01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:21.760
<v Speaker 1>a child in prison with some scary, scary individuals, and

1215
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:24.440
<v Speaker 1>if you weren't a criminal to start with, you're very

1216
01:03:24.519 --> 01:03:26.519
<v Speaker 1>likely going to end up being a criminal in the

1217
01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:29.360
<v Speaker 1>end because you have to take on a certain persona

1218
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:32.519
<v Speaker 1>in prison in order to protect yourself. And I think

1219
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:36.840
<v Speaker 1>it's so easy to snap to judgment and be like, oh, well,

1220
01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:39.639
<v Speaker 1>he committed another offense after like, what does that say

1221
01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:42.360
<v Speaker 1>about him? I don't think it says anything except for

1222
01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:46.000
<v Speaker 1>what actually just said that it is a really difficult place.

1223
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:48.679
<v Speaker 1>It is at dogg eat dog, and it is a

1224
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:51.960
<v Speaker 1>miracle that he survived and was able to come out

1225
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:54.800
<v Speaker 1>the other end, be an advocate and speak up for

1226
01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:58.199
<v Speaker 1>the wrongfully convicted. I think that he's allowed a little

1227
01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:03.039
<v Speaker 1>bit of grace considering what was done to him. Now,

1228
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.440
<v Speaker 1>we're not going to go so far as to accuse

1229
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Harper Smith and the guy named Brandon of being Michael

1230
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:12.519
<v Speaker 1>Gerardi's killers, but I think that if investigators had been

1231
01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:16.440
<v Speaker 1>able to continue pursuing these guys, they may have potentially

1232
01:04:16.480 --> 01:04:20.000
<v Speaker 1>built a case against them. It's worth voting that this

1233
01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:25.440
<v Speaker 1>particular lead was investigated by three other detectives besides Anthony Small,

1234
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:28.800
<v Speaker 1>but Small pretty much pushed their work to the side

1235
01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:32.400
<v Speaker 1>after he set his sights on Sharif and the money. Yep,

1236
01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:36.480
<v Speaker 1>it seems like the moment James Raoul said Sharif's name,

1237
01:04:37.000 --> 01:04:39.760
<v Speaker 1>Small decided that he was their fall guy and they

1238
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:42.239
<v Speaker 1>were going to pin the crime on him no matter what.

1239
01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:46.840
<v Speaker 1>And that's one of the most frustrating things about this story.

1240
01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:50.480
<v Speaker 1>I know law enforcement desperately wanted to solve this case,

1241
01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:53.079
<v Speaker 1>but they may have actually had the right guys on

1242
01:04:53.119 --> 01:04:56.719
<v Speaker 1>the radar get ultimately chose to railroad an innocent kid.

1243
01:04:57.280 --> 01:04:59.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean, my god, when you consider the amount of

1244
01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:02.840
<v Speaker 1>of work the police and prosecutors had to do in

1245
01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:06.360
<v Speaker 1>order to fabricate a casey in Sharif, they might as

1246
01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:09.119
<v Speaker 1>well have devoted all of this energy to, you know,

1247
01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:11.360
<v Speaker 1>actually finding the real killers.

1248
01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:14.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if these three guys were brazen enough to

1249
01:05:14.199 --> 01:05:16.519
<v Speaker 2>shoot an innocent man on a public street just to

1250
01:05:16.519 --> 01:05:19.119
<v Speaker 2>steal his wallet, who knows how many other crimes they

1251
01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:21.960
<v Speaker 2>may have gone on to commit. But even after Sharif's

1252
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:25.039
<v Speaker 2>conviction was overturned, the people in power still continue to

1253
01:05:25.079 --> 01:05:27.400
<v Speaker 2>maintain that he was the right person, and it would

1254
01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:29.760
<v Speaker 2>not surprise me if they still hold the same attitude

1255
01:05:29.840 --> 01:05:33.079
<v Speaker 2>nearly thirty years later. If so, then I can't see

1256
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:35.840
<v Speaker 2>anyone else ever being brought to justice for this crime.

1257
01:05:36.519 --> 01:05:38.679
<v Speaker 2>All that being said, if you happen to have any

1258
01:05:38.719 --> 01:05:42.079
<v Speaker 2>information on the murder of Michael Girardi, please contact the

1259
01:05:42.079 --> 01:05:46.280
<v Speaker 2>appropriate authorities. Jules Astley, any final thoughts in this case.

1260
01:05:46.760 --> 01:05:48.559
<v Speaker 2>I doubt you'll have any thoughts. There's nothing else to

1261
01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:49.960
<v Speaker 2>talk about, right.

1262
01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:53.920
<v Speaker 4>It just makes me mad. This is one of those cases.

1263
01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:59.519
<v Speaker 3>I think, his age, his vulnerability, the lack of advocacy

1264
01:05:59.639 --> 01:06:03.320
<v Speaker 3>for him, it makes me and the lack of an advocacy

1265
01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:07.440
<v Speaker 3>for Michael, like you had a murder victim who literally

1266
01:06:07.519 --> 01:06:10.440
<v Speaker 3>is shot with this woman. It reminds me of this

1267
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:13.760
<v Speaker 3>is just sidebar. I remember our first date, my favorite

1268
01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:16.079
<v Speaker 3>first date with Buddy, my late husband. He had called

1269
01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:18.400
<v Speaker 3>his mother before our first date and said, I'm gonna

1270
01:06:18.559 --> 01:06:20.440
<v Speaker 3>marry the woman that I'm about to take to dinner.

1271
01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:22.159
<v Speaker 4>So I just want to let you know. And it's

1272
01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:23.559
<v Speaker 4>like I can.

1273
01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:26.840
<v Speaker 3>Put myself in that position of this young woman who says,

1274
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:30.079
<v Speaker 3>look at this like Casanova is bringing me this rose,

1275
01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:34.199
<v Speaker 3>We're going to dinner. I'm going to maybe be going

1276
01:06:34.239 --> 01:06:37.039
<v Speaker 3>to dinner for the last first date of my life,

1277
01:06:37.079 --> 01:06:38.199
<v Speaker 3>and I'm going to be with Michael.

1278
01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:39.039
<v Speaker 4>That's what Michael thought.

1279
01:06:39.679 --> 01:06:42.159
<v Speaker 3>And so literally, like you said, he jumps in front

1280
01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:44.239
<v Speaker 3>of these people saying I'm going to protect her and

1281
01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:46.920
<v Speaker 3>if I lose my life, I do. It's this amazingly

1282
01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:51.000
<v Speaker 3>heroic moment and he dies and no one seems to

1283
01:06:51.079 --> 01:06:57.440
<v Speaker 3>care about him, her or getting the right people. In fact,

1284
01:06:57.519 --> 01:06:59.320
<v Speaker 3>they didn't care about the sixteen year old that they

1285
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:03.719
<v Speaker 3>falseleep arrested. And as the case progresses, they have more

1286
01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:07.719
<v Speaker 3>and more facts and more and more players who know

1287
01:07:07.840 --> 01:07:10.480
<v Speaker 3>they got it wrong, and everyone said.

1288
01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:13.360
<v Speaker 4>Who cares? That's what blows my mind, who cares?

1289
01:07:14.199 --> 01:07:16.239
<v Speaker 3>They should have cared on a million levels about a

1290
01:07:16.239 --> 01:07:19.119
<v Speaker 3>million different players in this game, and they didn't. And

1291
01:07:19.199 --> 01:07:21.920
<v Speaker 3>so it's not just sharif you know that there was

1292
01:07:21.960 --> 01:07:28.159
<v Speaker 3>the victim here, but he truly was so unimportant in

1293
01:07:28.199 --> 01:07:30.679
<v Speaker 3>this conversation that they said, if we can't get him

1294
01:07:30.679 --> 01:07:32.760
<v Speaker 3>on the murder charges, let's at least steal his life

1295
01:07:32.800 --> 01:07:35.760
<v Speaker 3>away from him with these armed robbery charges. And then

1296
01:07:35.800 --> 01:07:40.119
<v Speaker 3>who cares if this kid who literally should be getting

1297
01:07:40.119 --> 01:07:43.840
<v Speaker 3>ready for junior prom right like he's sixteen, he just

1298
01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:46.360
<v Speaker 3>got his driver's license. Think about the sixteen year old

1299
01:07:46.440 --> 01:07:50.960
<v Speaker 3>in your life. They're all dumb and naive and make

1300
01:07:51.039 --> 01:07:55.239
<v Speaker 3>poor choices. Right, not murder, but they're dumb. And so

1301
01:07:55.400 --> 01:07:58.440
<v Speaker 3>you think about this sixteen year old kid you thought

1302
01:07:58.519 --> 01:08:04.039
<v Speaker 3>his best punishment his life to truly execute him. Thank

1303
01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:06.840
<v Speaker 3>God for Roper Simmons that took that off the plate.

1304
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:11.400
<v Speaker 3>For every juvenile who commits a crime. I just don't

1305
01:08:11.400 --> 01:08:15.519
<v Speaker 3>think you can say that a child has no redeemable ability,

1306
01:08:15.519 --> 01:08:18.880
<v Speaker 3>that there's no way to teach them, to love them,

1307
01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:21.760
<v Speaker 3>to give them resources that show them they're more valuable

1308
01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:25.399
<v Speaker 3>than the environment they were born into. So Lord have

1309
01:08:25.560 --> 01:08:28.640
<v Speaker 3>mercy this is one of the best and most egregious

1310
01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:30.600
<v Speaker 3>cases we've looked at. On a million levels, I feel

1311
01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:33.479
<v Speaker 3>sorry for the eyewitness, I feel sorry for the victim.

1312
01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:36.359
<v Speaker 3>I feel sorry for the victim's family. I feel sorry

1313
01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:38.119
<v Speaker 3>for the people of New Orleans who were told they

1314
01:08:38.119 --> 01:08:40.479
<v Speaker 3>were safe. I feel sorry for the tourists who said

1315
01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:42.479
<v Speaker 3>who were told they were safe because a murderer had

1316
01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:46.880
<v Speaker 3>been caught. And I feel incredibly horrific for Sharif who

1317
01:08:46.880 --> 01:08:50.800
<v Speaker 3>as a child went to an adults world of violence

1318
01:08:51.239 --> 01:08:53.640
<v Speaker 3>and sat on death row wondering if the phone call

1319
01:08:53.680 --> 01:08:55.279
<v Speaker 3>was going to occur that said you're going to die

1320
01:08:55.640 --> 01:09:00.399
<v Speaker 3>in a couple months. Unbelievably disgusting because it wasn't a stake.

1321
01:09:00.920 --> 01:09:07.079
<v Speaker 3>It was many people knowingly dropping the ball or coercing

1322
01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:10.560
<v Speaker 3>and manipulating facts so that they got a conviction, and

1323
01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:12.880
<v Speaker 3>afterwards they were unwilling and did not want to be

1324
01:09:12.880 --> 01:09:15.239
<v Speaker 3>called out for It.

1325
01:09:14.399 --> 01:09:16.079
<v Speaker 4>Blows my mind.

1326
01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:20.319
<v Speaker 1>Let me just preface this conclusion with Ashley, thank you

1327
01:09:20.399 --> 01:09:23.079
<v Speaker 1>so much for giving your insights on these past couple

1328
01:09:23.119 --> 01:09:27.439
<v Speaker 1>wrongful conviction cases, because you've done such an excellent analysis

1329
01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:31.159
<v Speaker 1>and an excellent job, incredibly thorough You covered every single

1330
01:09:31.239 --> 01:09:34.520
<v Speaker 1>point that I could possibly think of, and your conclusion,

1331
01:09:34.680 --> 01:09:38.039
<v Speaker 1>I agree with every single point that you made. Charis's age,

1332
01:09:38.439 --> 01:09:40.800
<v Speaker 1>the fact that they went to such great lengths to

1333
01:09:41.159 --> 01:09:45.079
<v Speaker 1>essentially bury him, the fact that Small collected that money.

1334
01:09:45.279 --> 01:09:49.840
<v Speaker 1>It just feels so egregious. And the Conic Senior was

1335
01:09:49.920 --> 01:09:53.479
<v Speaker 1>involved and clearly didn't train the prosecutors properly, and they

1336
01:09:53.479 --> 01:09:56.840
<v Speaker 1>were willing to go to whatever lengths it was to

1337
01:09:56.960 --> 01:09:59.760
<v Speaker 1>get a conviction. And I think it comes down to

1338
01:10:00.039 --> 01:10:02.760
<v Speaker 1>actually said earlier, speaking of what a great job you did,

1339
01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:05.600
<v Speaker 1>ash she talked about the victims in the case. We

1340
01:10:06.199 --> 01:10:11.079
<v Speaker 1>not only have Michael Girardi and Connie Babin and Sharif Kuzen,

1341
01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:14.119
<v Speaker 1>but we also have the city of New Orleans because

1342
01:10:14.560 --> 01:10:17.840
<v Speaker 1>they don't get justice. And what it comes down to you,

1343
01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:21.880
<v Speaker 1>I think, is having a tourist city where the majority

1344
01:10:21.880 --> 01:10:26.000
<v Speaker 1>of income that you have is coming from tourism. That

1345
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:29.680
<v Speaker 1>gives a motivation to the police department, probably coming from

1346
01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:33.199
<v Speaker 1>the mayor's office, and to the prosecutors to find a

1347
01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:37.560
<v Speaker 1>suspect and secure a conviction. And I think that that

1348
01:10:37.600 --> 01:10:39.880
<v Speaker 1>can be done in haste, and that can be done

1349
01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:43.039
<v Speaker 1>without doing your proper due diligence, like what we saw

1350
01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:46.479
<v Speaker 1>with Connick Junior going back over the case and going, Wow,

1351
01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:49.439
<v Speaker 1>there was a miscarriage of justice here. I made a mistake.

1352
01:10:49.640 --> 01:10:53.720
<v Speaker 1>Let me rectify that that wasn't done here. He looked

1353
01:10:53.720 --> 01:10:56.359
<v Speaker 1>back in retrospect and saw that the difference was he

1354
01:10:56.439 --> 01:10:59.479
<v Speaker 1>wasn't in the moment trying to bury somebody. There was

1355
01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:02.560
<v Speaker 1>corruption and there was collusion in this case, and it

1356
01:11:02.640 --> 01:11:03.439
<v Speaker 1>was basically a.

1357
01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Fraud on the court.

1358
01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:08.159
<v Speaker 1>And it is so disgusting that Sharif had to endure

1359
01:11:08.239 --> 01:11:11.840
<v Speaker 1>this and the Connie had to deal with the trauma

1360
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:14.479
<v Speaker 1>of having to testify and put the wrong man behind

1361
01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:17.840
<v Speaker 1>bars because she is a victim too, and that Michael

1362
01:11:17.880 --> 01:11:20.880
<v Speaker 1>Girardi ends up getting lost in the sea of the

1363
01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:24.680
<v Speaker 1>whole wrongful conviction case against Sharif, and that Sharif had

1364
01:11:24.680 --> 01:11:27.800
<v Speaker 1>to languish behind bars as a child doing those two

1365
01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:31.880
<v Speaker 1>years on death row at the age of seventeen. I

1366
01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:34.960
<v Speaker 1>cannot imagine what that would have felt like and what

1367
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:39.119
<v Speaker 1>that can do long term. That will leave an indelible mark.

1368
01:11:39.520 --> 01:11:41.800
<v Speaker 1>This case is just heartbreaking across the board.

1369
01:11:42.680 --> 01:11:45.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've studied a lot of wrongful conviction cases and

1370
01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I see a lot of recurring themes. I find out

1371
01:11:47.920 --> 01:11:50.199
<v Speaker 2>that a lot of the time they're convicted for the

1372
01:11:50.239 --> 01:11:55.039
<v Speaker 2>same reasons because of mistaken eyewitness testimony, or prosecutory misconduct

1373
01:11:55.199 --> 01:11:58.399
<v Speaker 2>or jailhouse informants, and this case all of those. But

1374
01:11:58.520 --> 01:12:01.399
<v Speaker 2>it did have some other moments which just truly shocked

1375
01:12:01.399 --> 01:12:03.520
<v Speaker 2>me and made my jaw drop, Like when I read

1376
01:12:03.560 --> 01:12:07.640
<v Speaker 2>about alibi witnesses being detained in the district Attorney's office

1377
01:12:07.640 --> 01:12:10.399
<v Speaker 2>to miss their testimony and them giving the excuse, well,

1378
01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:12.880
<v Speaker 2>it was January, so we thought they would want to

1379
01:12:12.880 --> 01:12:14.920
<v Speaker 2>be in there when it's air conditioned, even though it

1380
01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:17.960
<v Speaker 2>was a cold winter day outside. And of course like

1381
01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:22.479
<v Speaker 2>allegedly like altering the original tape recorded interview of Sharif's

1382
01:12:22.520 --> 01:12:25.319
<v Speaker 2>coach where they actually changed the time that he said

1383
01:12:25.359 --> 01:12:28.359
<v Speaker 2>he dropped to Sharif off at home in order to

1384
01:12:28.520 --> 01:12:30.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of dispute his alibi. I mean, this is the

1385
01:12:30.760 --> 01:12:33.720
<v Speaker 2>type of stuff that should get people thrown to prison.

1386
01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:36.720
<v Speaker 2>But the worst that ever happened is that one prosecutor

1387
01:12:36.880 --> 01:12:39.520
<v Speaker 2>got a three month suspension, which he didn't even have

1388
01:12:39.560 --> 01:12:42.560
<v Speaker 2>to serve because he was essentially put on probation. And

1389
01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:45.079
<v Speaker 2>of course we talked about how the detective Anthony Small

1390
01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:48.880
<v Speaker 2>actually like phoned in a phony tip to crime stoppers

1391
01:12:49.119 --> 01:12:51.039
<v Speaker 2>and split the reward money with a friend of his,

1392
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:54.640
<v Speaker 2>so he was profiting off this wrongful conviction. So yeah,

1393
01:12:54.680 --> 01:12:57.000
<v Speaker 2>this is one of the absolute worst that I've ever seen.

1394
01:12:57.199 --> 01:13:00.119
<v Speaker 2>And Sharif, I don't want to say that he was lucky,

1395
01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:03.479
<v Speaker 2>but because nobody deserves to spend any time on death

1396
01:13:03.560 --> 01:13:06.000
<v Speaker 2>row if they're innocent, let alone two years. But he

1397
01:13:06.039 --> 01:13:08.359
<v Speaker 2>also had to spend other time in prison for armed

1398
01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:12.039
<v Speaker 2>robbery convictions which he probably also did not commit. And yes,

1399
01:13:12.079 --> 01:13:14.399
<v Speaker 2>he ran into trouble with the law after his release

1400
01:13:14.399 --> 01:13:17.239
<v Speaker 2>from prison, but he does seem to have changed turned

1401
01:13:17.279 --> 01:13:20.039
<v Speaker 2>his life around and he is fighting now to be

1402
01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:23.159
<v Speaker 2>an activist against the death penalty and to help wrongly

1403
01:13:23.199 --> 01:13:27.239
<v Speaker 2>convicted people, and he deserves to live happiness and peace

1404
01:13:27.279 --> 01:13:29.720
<v Speaker 2>for the rest of his life after what he went through.

1405
01:13:30.159 --> 01:13:32.399
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, this is definitely a case of just the

1406
01:13:32.600 --> 01:13:36.399
<v Speaker 2>justice system going horribly wrong. The death penalty got horribly wrong,

1407
01:13:36.520 --> 01:13:40.199
<v Speaker 2>where clearly the people in power knew they were sending

1408
01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:42.760
<v Speaker 2>an innocent kid to death row but just did not care,

1409
01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:45.359
<v Speaker 2>which is just terrifying that people can do this and

1410
01:13:45.399 --> 01:13:49.880
<v Speaker 2>not have a conscience about these wrongful acts which nearly

1411
01:13:49.880 --> 01:13:53.199
<v Speaker 2>got an innocent kid killed. And another tragedy, of course,

1412
01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:55.760
<v Speaker 2>is Michael Girardi, who sounded like a nice man who

1413
01:13:55.960 --> 01:13:59.119
<v Speaker 2>pretty much sacrificed himself to save his date and got

1414
01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:02.239
<v Speaker 2>shot for it, but he never received justice because the

1415
01:14:02.279 --> 01:14:04.760
<v Speaker 2>authorities just wanted to solve the case as quickly as

1416
01:14:04.800 --> 01:14:08.520
<v Speaker 2>possible and put anyone in prison, no matter as if

1417
01:14:08.560 --> 01:14:10.960
<v Speaker 2>who is the right person or not. And we talked

1418
01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:13.399
<v Speaker 2>about these other three suspects. For all we know, maybe

1419
01:14:13.399 --> 01:14:15.600
<v Speaker 2>they went on to commit more crimes, and maybe they

1420
01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:18.119
<v Speaker 2>went on to commit more murders in the years since

1421
01:14:18.159 --> 01:14:21.199
<v Speaker 2>Shreep's conviction because they were allowed to get away with

1422
01:14:21.279 --> 01:14:23.399
<v Speaker 2>it and no one was looking for them. So yeah,

1423
01:14:23.439 --> 01:14:26.600
<v Speaker 2>this case is an absolute nightmare that went wrong on

1424
01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:29.039
<v Speaker 2>so many levels. But I think I'm glad that we

1425
01:14:29.079 --> 01:14:32.880
<v Speaker 2>shared this story because it's a good cautionary tale on

1426
01:14:32.920 --> 01:14:35.199
<v Speaker 2>how the justice system can go horribly wrong.

1427
01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:38.479
<v Speaker 5>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1428
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:40.000
<v Speaker 5>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

1429
01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:43.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1430
01:14:43.159 --> 01:14:46.920
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1431
01:14:47.000 --> 01:14:50.359
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1432
01:14:50.399 --> 01:14:53.239
<v Speaker 2>and signed thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1433
01:14:53.239 --> 01:14:55.880
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars

1434
01:14:55.880 --> 01:15:00.279
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes which

1435
01:15:00.319 --> 01:15:03.279
<v Speaker 2>I talk about cases which are not featured on The

1436
01:15:03.359 --> 01:15:06.479
<v Speaker 2>Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

1437
01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:09.319
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier, tier three, the

1438
01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:12.279
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

1439
01:15:12.359 --> 01:15:16.640
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries,

1440
01:15:16.880 --> 01:15:19.880
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

1441
01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:23.159
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

1442
01:15:23.159 --> 01:15:26.560
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

1443
01:15:26.600 --> 01:15:29.720
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

1444
01:15:29.720 --> 01:15:33.159
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

1445
01:15:33.199 --> 01:15:36.039
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1446
01:15:36.079 --> 01:15:38.840
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1447
01:15:38.880 --> 01:15:41.600
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

1448
01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:44.640
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1449
01:15:44.720 --> 01:15:45.439
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

1450
01:15:45.640 --> 01:15:47.159
<v Speaker 5>So I want to let you know a little bit

1451
01:15:47.159 --> 01:15:50.119
<v Speaker 5>about the Jewels and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

1452
01:15:50.159 --> 01:15:53.039
<v Speaker 5>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

1453
01:15:53.039 --> 01:15:55.880
<v Speaker 5>Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

1454
01:15:56.000 --> 01:15:58.119
<v Speaker 5>so they're not very many, but they're just too short

1455
01:15:58.159 --> 01:16:01.159
<v Speaker 5>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

1456
01:16:01.239 --> 01:16:03.800
<v Speaker 5>so we hope you'll check out those patreons will link

1457
01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:04.880
<v Speaker 5>them in the show notes.

1458
01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:07.319
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1459
01:16:07.439 --> 01:16:09.800
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

1460
01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:12.840
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

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01:16:12.960 --> 01:16:16.079
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwink. So

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<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

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<v Speaker 2>trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

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<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy