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patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks

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dot com. Welcome back to dot net rocks. Where back

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on Terra Firma. I am anyway in my house. I'm

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Carl Franklin, and Richard is on the road and you're aware.

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Speaker 2: I'm in Haldmun, the Netherlands, okay for a user group

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talk before I fly home tomorrow. But I've been, you know.

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We did Orlando at DEVENU session, then over to Lisbon

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for as your Dev Summit. Then I went and did TDC,

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which is a Trondheim Developer conference in Trondheim, Norway, and

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then down to Hello Stavanger in Stavanger, Norway and hung

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out with Alan Henderson. And then this week was tech

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O Rama and Utrecht and me.

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Speaker 1: I went to Orlando and I came home and then

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I went on a cruise with a bunch of TV

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chefs cool yeah, and was that fun. It was so

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much fun. And just walking down the hallway and running

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into like Mark Murphy and Alex Cornaschelley and Andrew Zimmer

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and Alton Brown. Just really cool.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: The Norwegian cruise line boat food suck. Oh no, yes,

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but the restaurants were pretty good. But like the general

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buffet where everybody feeds at the trough, oh my god,

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just horrible, no flavor, no, you know, just just bulk food, nasty.

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It's funny. But the restaurants were great. And the chef's

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we're taking over the restaurants and serving their own dishes,

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and that was really cool.

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Speaker 2: That's really fun. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: All right, so let's talk about because this is episode

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nineteen seventy five, let's talk about what happened that year.

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I'll start so politically, Vietnam War is over, yeah I

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think it is. The US embassy is evacuated in Cambodia.

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Is the Kamara Rouge advanced on Non ten?

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Speaker 2: Oh right, yeah, now we get to the killing fields.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. There were two assassination attempts on Cherald Ford, President

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Gerald Ford, both of which failed.

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Speaker 2: In culture Jaws, Oh man, dude, Steven Spielberg's big hit.

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Speaker 1: Right, still a great You know, I think more people

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are afraid to watch Jaws than like Friday the Thirteenth.

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Speaker 2: You're probably right.

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Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is it's not a

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gory movie. It's just a tense movie.

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Speaker 2: Well it's that music is killing, right, John Williams Man,

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John Williams made it.

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Speaker 1: So some other movies Dog Day Afternoon, One Flew Over

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the Cuckoo's Nest were released next year. It gets really

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really awesome for movies and TV. Wheel of Fortune premiered

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and Saturday Night Live debuted Wheel of Fortune in January,

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Saturday Night Live in October. Okay, now to the things

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that matter to us. Microsoft was founded.

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Speaker 2: There you go Albuquerque, Paul.

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Speaker 1: Allen and Bill Gates, the Pat Rock mood rings, popular trends,

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the first black manager in Major League Baseball Frank Robinson. Nice,

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definite milestone there in the first black golfer in the Masters,

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Lee Elder Way to go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, progress, Yeah, So.

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Speaker 1: Do you have anything in science and tech a space

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that you want to talk about in nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean you mentioned Microsoft, of course, and that's

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also because the Altar eighty eight hundred had finally been released.

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It was in the magazine in nineteen seventy four and

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we mentioned it there, but now it's actually available for

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sale in January. Yeah. Also released in nineteen seventy five

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is the sixty five oh two processor. Wow made my motorola,

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So the one that will show up in the Apple

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two in the sixty four Even the NES was actually

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powered by sixty five oh two. And in nineteen seventy

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five you could buy a sixty five oh two processor

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for twenty five dollars.

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Speaker 1: Wow, and because who needs those things? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And in video game history, nineteen seventy five is the

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year that the Colossal Cave Adventure is written. Wow, running

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on a running on a mini computer, written by Will Crowther.

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This is the famous It is dark and you're likely

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to be eaten by a groove or you're in a

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twisty maze of passages all alike. Yeah, that's that's that.

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That becomes Zork many years later. But the original version

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is cle.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so these are like the Infocom text adventure games.

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Speaker 2: Right well before that. Yeah, Infocom you know use that

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the Temple Colossal Cave is the level. This is the

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original original original.

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Speaker 1: Did I hear in the news that EA got bought.

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Speaker 2: EA has gone private. Electronics no longer a publicly held company. Yeah,

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they got they're now gone private. We'll see what that represents.

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But a conglomerate of organizations, including some Saudi entities, have

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taken it private.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Over on the space side, two sets of missions that

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I think are very important. The Viking Margelanders launched this year,

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but we'll talk about them next to you in the

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next show when they land, because that's what the get cool.

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But the Soviets flew Venera nine and ten, launched in June,

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landed in October, and sent the first images from the

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surface of another planet. The Viking will do that from Mars,

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but it won't. It will happen later. And of course

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this is this is Venus we're talking about, so temperatures

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so hot it melt lead and raining sulfur, dioxides, all

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that fluff. It's like dangerous there. And so while they

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make it to the surface, they do not last very long,

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just a few hours, and then they're destroyed by the

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forces that are under them. Any more important. In July

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of nineteen seventy five, the Joint Apollo so Use mission.

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So this was an Apollo capsule and a Soyused capsule

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meeting up in space basically to do a handshake.

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Speaker 1: So back when America and Russia liked each other.

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Speaker 2: Well they really didn't, and this was a big deal

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was trying to deal with. This is the middle of

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the Cold War and they're trying to find a way forward.

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But there was a lot of stuff for the hoops

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they had to jump through. One. You know, the Soviet

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designs and the American designs were very different from each other.

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Soviet designs were very much automated. The cosmonauts did not

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operate the machine much. It was flown from the ground

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and that was concerning, and they didn't have a lot

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of redundancy. If something failed, they were supposed to abort

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the mission. That was the point, either everything works or stop.

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Where Apollo was very could be hand flown. There was

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definitely a crew in charge of the vehicle, multiple redundancies,

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so things could break and they could switch over. So

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it was a challenge there. But here was the real problem.

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The docking systems not only were different, but they were

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what we call probe and drogue. That is to say,

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there is a probe but a sticky outbit that has

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to go into a drogue and any bit, and neither

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side wanted to be the any bit. See any childish

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male behavior here, Yeah, so uh never changes. The solution

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was was called the androgynoust peripheral attached system, which by

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the way is actually a better solution where both sides

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coupled exactly the same way, so you don't have to

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match up the pairs, right. The problem with probe and

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drogue is what if you got two vehicles and both

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that probes on them, you can't dock. So this was

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the beginning of a universal adapter system that is what

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is used everywhere then on. But the other issue here

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was that the atmospheres in the capsules were different the APO.

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The APOLLO system used five psi of pure oxygen in

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the cabin, where the SOU system used fifteen psi like

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normal atmosphere pressure of nitrogen oxygen combination, and so they

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you couldn't match them up.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you had to have like a holding area

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between the two.

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Speaker 2: That's right. So the androgenous perphil attached system was not

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only a neutral docking system where two probes could dock

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into it. So everybody got to be a probe, but

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also provided a common atmosphere for that. Now, the SOUS

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also opened the pod bay doors. Holl that's it. So

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the Sous actually modified their system to reduce their pressure

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down to ten psi tapsule, which made things a little

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bit simpler. But yeah, they would climb into this locker

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between the two in the in the apaths and that's

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where they were able to shake hands and so forth,

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mixing the atmospherees.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's cool. So this is like I just want

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to talk about software, man.

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Speaker 2: But there you go. There there's a history bit.

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Speaker 1: This is super That was really cool and I'm glad

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we're doing this. All right, Well, let's get started here, started,

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I say, but let's move on with better no framework,

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roll the music.

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Speaker 2: Awesome, boar man, what you got?

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Speaker 1: So about three years ago, episode eighteen eighteen, we did

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a show at NDC making open source work for Everyone

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with David Whitney.

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Speaker 2: Remember that, Yeah, I remember, published late in the year

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and a lot of f bombs dropped as I recall.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, there was some anger there and you

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know a lot of the well, one big issue that

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we honed in on was how do we incentivize open

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source project maintainers to continue without compensation, right, yeah, I

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think one of the things. I don't know if I

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suggested it or you did, or one of us said,

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you know, there should be something built in a new

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get where you could contribute right right there when you

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download the package, you should be given an option. Hey,

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you want to contribute to this project. Well, it turns

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out that's a thing now, Yay. Sponsorship on new GAT

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is a thing that's cool. And there's an article that

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we're going to link to announcing sponsorship on NEWCATA that

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shows how it works.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just easier for people to support the

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projects they depend on. I check. Yeah, I like that

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a lot. Yeah, awesome, dude, nice find.

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Speaker 1: Yep, that's it. That's what I got. So we're moving forward. Yeah,

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one step at a time. So who's talking to us today?

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Richard and grabbed a comment of Show nineteen seventy one.

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Just a few shows ago, our friend Egle Hanson talking

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a little about valuable testing. I just saw him at

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the conferences as well, and this was where we were

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talking about testing approaches and systems for making effective tests, right,

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Like that was all about it's like it's just testing

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that makes your system more reliable, more valuable. And our

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friend our Dallas, that's Steve Smith commented where said we

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were talking about naming strategies around testing, and so he said,

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for organizing a naming test, I'm a fan of following

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SRP or single responsibility paradigms.

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Speaker 2: With test classes. What this generally looks like is a

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test class per method being tested. This gets rid of

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classes that end with the name tests, although you may

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certainly have a folder called class test that holds individual

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test classes one per method being tested. Names of the

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test classes should be some class, some method. Then put

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it underscore in there if you like, and your casing

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is up to you. Name the individual test scenario being tested,

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such as if you read the class name followed by

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the method name, it would describe a use case for

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the expectation. So calculator ad return some gives two integers

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or calculator ad throws given null argument. Now with some

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test fail, it's clear to anyone technical or not which

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use cases failed.

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Speaker 1: You know, Steve doesn't like set standards no but for everybody,

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but I love his suggestions. They always make a lot

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of sense. He's a thoughtful man, there's no twoice about it.

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Speaker 2: Saw him too at the conference as usual, you know,

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soft spoken, thoughtful. You got to listen carefully and you'll

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learn some things. And I suspect he already has a

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copy of Music to code By it.

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Speaker 1: I know he is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for you're comment at a

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copy of music Go By. He's on its way to you.

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And if you'd like a copy of music Go buy,

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write a comment on the website dot at Rocks dot

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com or on the Facebook to publish every show there

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and if you comment there at reading the show, we'll

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tell your copy of us to go.

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Speaker 1: I think Steve is one of the first contributors to

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that project, and he uses music to code By. I

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think he was the one who says to soothe his

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agitated dogs so they can go to sleep.

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Speaker 2: That's cool, that's a good idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well let's move on here. It's Mattias Carlson.

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He's back, or Mattias, I think we call you right,

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that's correct. Yes, a friend of ours from Sweden. He's

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a senior architect and partner at w com or Yeah,

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I think that's it. In Gothenburg, Sweden over twenty five

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years of professional experience software development, Microsoft Developer Technologies MVP,

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and the dot net and DevOps categories. He's also deeply

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involved in the dot net open source community and is

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probably most known there as one of the lead maintainers

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of the dot Net Foundation project Cake And you thought

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it was just for dessert?

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Speaker 3: Aesome, that's the point I want to bring cake and people.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, Matias, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Let's be good to be back.

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Speaker 2: Awesome. All right, what have you been up to, friend, presumer?

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Your cake centric? Is you're very cake browne.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, let's just start with refresh our memories about cake.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So Cake is a cross platform, cross environment, cross service,

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open source built orchestra and framework and.

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Speaker 1: It's not very ambitious, just a little slice of Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But that's why I like, it's hard time time to explain.

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But we've been around for a while, yeah, yeah, since

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twenty fourteen, and today, like what we're probably going to

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talk a little about is like in May this year

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we dot not pre before Micro just launched that you

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will now be able to just dot not and a

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c shop file because that has never been done before.

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And I was like, hey, hey, that's what's Kate been

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doing for for almost eleven years. Now we'll essentially be

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able to put your C short code in one script

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file and have a script drunner to do it. And

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instead of yelling on internet and social media like they

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stole our idea or whatever, I have throll over. The

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punches are like, oh, I can throw away a lot

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of code and this is like a perfect fit for Cake,

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which means we're going to introduce KK SDK.

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Speaker 2: So interesting. So what does it mean to you have

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a Cake SDK, Well.

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Speaker 3: It's okay. We ever had the Shop DSL which was

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the script runner, We had the Frosting which was a

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console application. Now we will have a Cake SDK, and

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that means that we have moved everything that was code

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generation wise in the script runner. We have moved it

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into an regular dot STKA package, which means essentially you

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can just do a single C. Shop Virus is a

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new support dot K and we will bring all the

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goodness of Cake by just adding an STK reference to

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to your product. Because with a new project less files

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the support for does not SK. They have a couple

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of pre prepotal directors. You can have things like SDKs,

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MS built properties, packages, projects, and things like that, which

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means for us has been really good because then we

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will get things like vis code support out of the box,

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which has been the pain point for us sometimes because

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we had all on language server for Cake because we

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added out shually. So this will mean a lot of

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good things for us, I think.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, what's a typical scenario where a developer might

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feel the need to use something like Cake if they're

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just trying to use them as builder, they're having a

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particularly difficult build, what would what would be the complexity

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of their situation?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the main scenario is like if you

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have more than your dot not pack, if you're a

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scenario has something more on that. But also if you

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want something like usually today we have all all the

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cis have Jamo yeah, I hate it, and jammal is

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get get like everything you get one space wrong and

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like usually the flow is well, I open a text file,

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yammo file, right, I enter a few esoteric tasks that

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are better than it used to be with us, and

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they still it's it's source control is where you can

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follow what happens here.

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Speaker 1: You're preaching the choir mane.

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Speaker 3: That's that's like you have something that's more like an engineer,

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Like you have something that's in source control is version,

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but it has no discoverability and you have lack everything

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of a real program language. And that's the advantage if there's

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something like it, which is c sharp, is that you

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have things like, oh, I can use I can to

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take one string and concatenect with other in a language

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I know. I don't have to look it up somewhere

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because has there Jamal and National DevOps as their Jamal

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and GIT clubs as their Jammal. But here with Kate,

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you get one sea sharp the sea shop you used daily,

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and you get a set of we call them alysses

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to get a set of methods that are strongly type

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static methods for things like dot m bield or dot pack,

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or we have all these set of methods to work

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for the file system like clean directories, or you can

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do I want to copy files, I want to sip files.

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All those are strongly typed C sharp methods and they

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have strongly type parameters. You don't need to do like, oh,

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what is this version parameter? It's a string or is

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it an int or whatever is it? We will have

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that in a type either parameter or class for your

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for use. That's one. And we also have this sense

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of a task, so you can essentially have a workflow

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where you can define dependencies like before I build, I

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want to restore, and before I test I want to build.

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You can define that Shane in C sharp. And also

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the biggest advantage you can run it locally before it

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push it because usually this like the workplace, I edit

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my YAMO file, I committed and push it. Eventually something

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happens somewhere advice while I go get my coffee, and

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then I went in for the agent to start, and

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then it installs dot net or something, and then you

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get an error online twenty two something something because I

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couldn't find the file. And so in that way, cake

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will improve the feedback cycle because you can try it

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out locally first and get feedback quickly. You can also

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get all the intellicens and everything for everything, so you

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get a better develop a few cycle. So that's I

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think what the CAKE brings to the tail.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're sticking with one language, right, and you're

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not hopping I mean not that really consider a link

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yamal language. But it's still you know there is a

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syntax and an organization to it, mostly involving indents that

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that you have to deal with, like I think you're

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urgency sharp is nobody cares what you're indents or do

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what you want? You want you want braces on every

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on a separate line each time like a crazy person,

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knock yourself out, that's fine, lay it out however you want.

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Speaker 3: And also things like upload artifacts, well that can be

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a you need to find a toss that is upload

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something something or and we have us like get of

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actions dot to come on dot upload artifacts, right, which

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is to coverbel and it will and we al those

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abstractions like we have we have typed if it's a

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file pof or if it's a directory pof, which means

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intent is clear just by looking at intelligence and method documentation, right.

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And also one thing that's usually you don't know what

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often by context inlock, what's the current directory or what

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are the things that that and that's you will just

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get by the VAUT because if you do, it doesn't pack.

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You'll lower it ends there and you can test it

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locally and then it will work on c I too,

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because it will end up in the artifacs folder because

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you can test that locally and you can upload it.

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Speaker 1: So you said orchestration, but you're really focused on build automation, right,

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I mean there's no do you touch containers at all

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or any of that.

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Speaker 3: That's actually what anything I can do almost the YAMA

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we can do and that. So you can build containers,

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and you can even now with ten and you can

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even now build your with SDK, you can actually build

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your script into a container, so you can have that

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pre build the running so which means you can really

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you can have something that's yester and pre compiled and

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have really good stockup times.

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Speaker 1: But it's not a run time orchestrator like you know

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you would have with Kubernetes or something like that. You

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really focused on building, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's agnostic. It's it's more orchestrating the tasks you.

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Speaker 4: Need to do to be able to to be able

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to like if you want to push the registry, you

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pull down from a registry, build art facts, or package

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up your output for a published or.

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Speaker 1: So now we know what cake is. You have some

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stks that you want to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like the new SDK, and that's essentially what

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we've done, is like how can we take all like

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the simplicity and before Like, well, if you're going to

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see the current state of CAKE is we have a

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dot Nea tool which is essentially interprets a CAKE file,

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which is uses the Grostling compiler to compile. And now

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with SDK, we will ask you just to be top

402
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level console application and just reference that, which means that

403
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the whole things with bootstrapping is almost the only thing

404
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you need to have installed now to use CAKE is

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the dott ESK, which has simplified. It's almost like a journey.

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But with the first Cake we were DONA framework and

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then you had to have a new get packaged that

408
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someone needed some PowerShell bootstrapper to pull down. And then

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with doctor q twe the Doctor tool system game and

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then we could do installed tools and that was almost

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like the next iteration with this file application and like

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one thing you need is so that's ky and you

413
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can go on with simply and we are with s K.

414
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Also is that we everything that we know a love

415
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from CAKE, like we have all this like we have

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modules which can replace internal it's in Cake you can

417
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things like logging and five system access and things that

418
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that's pull just work also with SDK, so you can

419
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also add a NuGet package reference and I will you

420
00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:26,680
will automatically code generate that for you. We have things

421
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like the College ass was our helpper commands for things.

422
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We have loads that the IM built in for things

423
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like that that build do NuGet restore and things. But

424
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there are several things like some messages to teams or

425
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Slack or Twitter or things that the community provided and

426
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,200
those of us add the package reference and the skillsomatically

427
00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:48,000
generate the proxim methods needed for those are just they're

428
00:22:48,039 --> 00:22:51,160
just available for you to use in the euroscript or

429
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,160
in your console application. It's not so that that's essentially

430
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what sk have done. All the magic bits that script

431
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,279
undergund we do just as a regular or not that

432
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,839
product now. So it simplifies a lot of things for us,

433
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and it's just we don't need to think about all

434
00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:12,000
the special things. It's just the DOTT console application essentially

435
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for their use now and.

436
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Speaker 2: It's just make it immediately thinking about the security context

437
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on this that now you can run with lower security

438
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context in the script rather than when you're running this

439
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directly from the developers perspective and in the developer's security context,

440
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so it probably is a bit safer, especially if we

441
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have multiple contributors where not everybody has to have make

442
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rights at all. They could they could be able to

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run separately.

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Speaker 3: And that's the cool thing about having container support now

445
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is that essentially you can do something in container. You

446
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can assentially mount the current repository and build in an

447
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,519
isolated environment, which is really cool if you want to

448
00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:52,079
test stuff without affecting the developers environments. So I don't

449
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think you can help pre made developer containers that builds

450
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everything without their needing to know what dependencies that need

451
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to be installed and things, so that's also good.

452
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Interesting, it's literally like I want to set build it.

453
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I set and make that is essentially set up this

454
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environment for me so I can do these tests and

455
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tear it back down again. Like that gets really powerful.

456
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,680
That's cool, man. I like it a lot, and it

457
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,480
should be thinking more broadly about how people want to

458
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build software now.

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Speaker 3: And then I think there also little like that you

460
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,359
reuse the tools that you use daily, so it's very

461
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little context switching, and you can use like vs code

462
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,240
for what was supported up now with a tenement that

463
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:37,039
we've supported for these product last files. Yeah, but also

464
00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:39,720
they have a path to you can do dot net

465
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project to convert. So actually before you have been stuck

466
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like if something becomes too advanced that you want the

467
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,240
foolish to the idea. Before we the cake script, it

468
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,440
was like something special. Now we can actually just convert

469
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,640
it to a sea shore project and you can use

470
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,920
foolish as due if you if you want, right, So

471
00:24:58,039 --> 00:25:02,839
that's also advantages that we don't do fewer things and

472
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,880
had off more to your martuals to support, and we

473
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,240
can focus on our core problems to do bilo automation

474
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,160
and that'd be important.

475
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well you said build automations for a lot of

476
00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:15,680
different things. You want to set up a configuration for

477
00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:17,759
a test lab, you want to go to a pre

478
00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:20,640
prod for some load testing or you know other tests.

479
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,319
Like there's a lot of if I feel like with

480
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,880
the SDK approach, it's really shipping it down so I

481
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,359
can write a set of scripts they will run in

482
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,519
all those places, not have to make separate ones for

483
00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:31,039
each other. A lot of cut and pasting.

484
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what I mean to cross the environment

485
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,119
because you can have the same build script and then

486
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,880
based on the environment, and that's where where we try it.

487
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,640
Also K provides abstractions. We have things like I am

488
00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:44,279
running on Linux, I'm I running a mac am I

489
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,880
running on get up. We have or not running on

490
00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:50,359
things like git Clubs or Ash develops. We have ready

491
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,599
made just pooly on property so you can check which

492
00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:55,839
is make it really easy, don't need to find out

493
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,960
which esoteric environments.

494
00:25:57,559 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 5: Variable don't know to know or notice or we have

495
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,480
that already wrapped. So we have support for I don't know,

496
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,039
twelve or thirteen build systems. We add the adams and

497
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,079
go along, which means that you can have the same flow.

498
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,400
So if you want portability to well like now we're

499
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,200
working Asher DeVos, but we want to move to get

500
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:19,039
up actions, there's very little you need. You can start

501
00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:22,680
that process now and essentially just change which boolean you're

502
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,240
looking at. And also the cake tasks have support for

503
00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:28,240
things like conditionals. You can say that this task we

504
00:26:28,559 --> 00:26:31,720
give actions, so we do upload artifacts and GILA actions

505
00:26:31,759 --> 00:26:35,000
and this if you're on Lasher Develops, we do upload

506
00:26:35,079 --> 00:26:38,039
artifact using that privider and but the rest of the

507
00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:39,400
bill flow is the same.

508
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,519
Speaker 1: And you support Android in iOS too right.

509
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 3: Well as a target, but that's essentially then you're using

510
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,519
something like like MAUI or you're saying that or anything

511
00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:53,160
you can like if you can execute like scriptwise. So

512
00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:57,880
the host will be either macros or Linux or Windows

513
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,799
or FreeBSD or something like that. But what you can tower,

514
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,759
anything you can build with a dot net scale or

515
00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:05,440
any other scale for that. It's very cool the part

516
00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:08,400
you can automate, and that's where the community steps in.

517
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,279
What the audience, because there are several hundred addings add

518
00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:15,400
over years to add things that I don't know about,

519
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,200
things like the Android Estcade manager or something something that

520
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,400
I don't use dailid that's some extension, or things like

521
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:27,119
us AT communicating with slack bard teams or that we

522
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,119
don't want in the box, but you can have it

523
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:29,640
if you want.

524
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: So firm listening to what you just said, it's the

525
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,240
the big takeaway here, friends, is that rather than using

526
00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:38,480
the Cake command line app to do everything, now you

527
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,240
can write your own c sharp apps and call the

528
00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:43,920
SDK to do whatever you want to do with the

529
00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:45,880
Cake in your own app.

530
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,599
Speaker 3: So yeah, so it's actually the sk just brings it in.

531
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,599
So you have it available everywhere in a regular console application,

532
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,279
so you will have things like dotnut build, or it

533
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,519
just appears by adding a reference to scale.

534
00:27:58,599 --> 00:27:59,319
Speaker 1: Ye love it.

535
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,279
Speaker 2: Why don't we take break? And then I want to

536
00:28:01,319 --> 00:28:02,920
change cares a little bit here and dig into some

537
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:03,559
of these integration.

538
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,759
Speaker 1: Sounds good. We'll be right back after these very important messages.

539
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,079
Did you know there's a dot net on aws community.

540
00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:14,759
Follow the social media blogs, YouTube influencers and open source

541
00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:18,519
projects and add your own voice. Get plugged into the

542
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:23,240
dot net on aws community at aws dot Amazon dot com,

543
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:24,240
slash dot net.

544
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,839
Speaker 2: And we're back. It's dot net rocks. I'm Richard Campbell,

545
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,000
that's Carl Franklin. You know, you're hanging with our buddy Mattias,

546
00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:38,519
who's been poured years of work into kuh and now

547
00:28:38,839 --> 00:28:40,640
with the SDK approach. So if you just want to

548
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,640
build into your own app, you can do that. And

549
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,960
I've just been thumbing through the huge number of integrations here.

550
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,240
I mean the obvious ones like visual Studio and get

551
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,000
have actions and so forth, but boy, there's stuff I've

552
00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:54,640
never used. You know. Heck, there's still Team city support.

553
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,799
Who's got Team City anymore? That's awesome team City.

554
00:28:58,319 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've had a lot of developers like that, especially

555
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,279
those of that loose hosted solutions, and also what we

556
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,559
see there's also a trend of sometimes like stepping back

557
00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:13,240
from services, especially in Europe, like how can we do

558
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,880
more on premise if needed? So that's where often those

559
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,880
systems come in when you're running and none you're hosting yourself.

560
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: Even support Jenkins yeah classic, oh yeah, and some of

561
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:25,680
these are directly indicating some of them looked like the

562
00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:28,880
third their third party contributors that they actually did this

563
00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:33,160
and put it up on GitHub. So we had this

564
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:37,839
conversation about new get contributions and so forth, like how

565
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,440
much support do you get for this project but you've

566
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,480
worked on in a long time.

567
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: Well had some like Octopus Boiled Team have supported us

568
00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:52,839
some big computers, but like a few small but not

569
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,400
any biggest. But it's been more of a marathon for us.

570
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,160
Like for us, the motivation hasn't been financial. It's been

571
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:01,920
sure most need to scratch our own inch and solve

572
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:02,720
our own problems.

573
00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:05,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got to build software and you need good

574
00:30:05,599 --> 00:30:06,880
tools to make it easy to do so.

575
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, so all of us on the team are dot

576
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,720
net developers and especially with me, a few of us

577
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:16,680
are consultants or you work at product companies where this

578
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,599
is something that we need to use. And that's why

579
00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:22,799
it's good to have we have a whole country organization

580
00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:26,400
and get up with things that all these addings exist

581
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,039
and we can help provide that are in the box

582
00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:31,720
so you can find and the if you go like

583
00:30:31,839 --> 00:30:34,079
the cake has a tag on you gets you can

584
00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:39,319
easily find all those two. But it's hard with Sometimes

585
00:30:39,319 --> 00:30:45,200
with money comes expectations also, so it's usually what I've

586
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,880
done something for money has been me as a consultant

587
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,279
to code for someone, which makes it really easy. Gets clear,

588
00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:53,559
it has a boundary as a start and a stop date.

589
00:30:54,279 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: That's not how open source projects work in this no no.

590
00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 3: But I mean if you're sometimes hard to explain, like

591
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:06,119
there's some have high demands sometimes so they're very demanding

592
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,799
and their get up issues and and like sorry today

593
00:31:09,839 --> 00:31:11,799
I want to walk the dog and be my kids instead,

594
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:13,119
So you're not a priority.

595
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: But I do my actual job so that I can

596
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:17,599
pay my mortgage.

597
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: Weird, but like if you're paying for my work, then

598
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,440
you will get priority. It's not it's like some of

599
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,680
the things that that's the worst thing I can say,

600
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,119
like you want to be paid to solve this or

601
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,960
but it's it's like if you want me to pay

602
00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:35,000
artis you over my customers and my kids and my

603
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:39,440
wife and I want something back. But also sometimes can

604
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,400
be I know a couple of years ago there was

605
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,079
like the student from brazila pin me and DM and

606
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,720
he was so nice about it. So we just spend

607
00:31:47,039 --> 00:31:50,039
like a night doing pair programming. So but that was

608
00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:52,319
like because I wanted to, And its like one of

609
00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:55,920
the driving factors, like like cakes have been for so

610
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,960
many years, more like in Marathon, it's like not big

611
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,359
bang things, but we had done a little each so

612
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,559
we've been stable around. And there's a lot of open

613
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:07,440
source product that they do a spike and then disappear,

614
00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:09,240
but it's.

615
00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: Also the thing they needed for their project and then

616
00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:12,519
they're gone.

617
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: But it's almost harder to to do something where you

618
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,319
can have be around like you have, like be around

619
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,920
for a decade and still be active. That's harder long

620
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,720
term because you need to take care of things, you

621
00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:30,359
have to be you have to like live with decisions

622
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,759
you made twenty fifteen or twenty seventeen or that it's

623
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,599
It's like, so I have a couple of interns now

624
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,279
and I have to explain the whole job because we

625
00:32:41,319 --> 00:32:44,759
have been through the whole like Dotcore, one product, Jason Thing,

626
00:32:44,839 --> 00:32:47,319
dot Court and the whole thing. Like you are like

627
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,319
you don't know how good you have it. I'll tell

628
00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:52,880
my interns like you haven't seen the things I've seen.

629
00:32:55,359 --> 00:32:58,559
Speaker 2: Are open source stare.

630
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,559
Speaker 3: But I mean, I think it's important that you do

631
00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:04,200
it for a recommendational thing because otherwise it will burn out.

632
00:33:04,359 --> 00:33:09,440
It's and the sad part I think is that enterprises

633
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,359
should care about more about their software bilom.

634
00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:15,559
Speaker 2: With it's your build system like this, but also a

635
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:16,680
small piece of work.

636
00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:18,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, but any dependency, I think you should care about

637
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,960
more because if you look at your software the heroes,

638
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,880
if you don't know who's behind one component, that's a risk.

639
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,119
And if any if it was something any other things,

640
00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:31,480
you would ever treat that as a huge risk. But

641
00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:35,079
there's one guy that has this critical component and that's

642
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:37,720
why we're kind of sad. Now when I see people, oh,

643
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,240
then if this goes commercial, I will just rewrite it myself. Well,

644
00:33:42,559 --> 00:33:45,599
you should take care of the people before they go

645
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,680
bro the commercial or something. Why did they care about

646
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,960
them when you just took their work for them? And

647
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,000
also security device, it's really important to have a good

648
00:33:56,039 --> 00:33:59,640
index of what are your dependensies, how are they being patched,

649
00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:03,519
are they actively maintained and things that that, And that's

650
00:34:03,519 --> 00:34:07,000
the whole thing with what I really applaud you get

651
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,719
for adding this support button. But at the same time,

652
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,880
the cyndic in is like will people find that support?

653
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:17,000
I would like this? Then this is the first step.

654
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,760
Hopefully the next step will be that if we'll be

655
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,559
able to be report back into something like the dot

656
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,280
cli or something that these are people you have packtes

657
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,760
that you could support or even be part of things

658
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,679
like the bill providers like I should have ups and

659
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,159
get clubs and get hub Like could they want to

660
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,440
do this data and say you have dependencies you should

661
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,719
do some kind of funding to them.

662
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I've always looked at that from the

663
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,480
GitHub perspective. It's from an area you're paying for an

664
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:50,039
enterprise account. You hopefully have a bill of materials across

665
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:52,280
all these different applications that all bill milt in your company,

666
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,199
and you can look across the over source projects say

667
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,440
all right, you know, from a CFOs project, I want

668
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,719
to kind of check once a year and then have

669
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,199
it allocated out of the project depend on and you

670
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:03,719
know make would obviously fall into that category two. But

671
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,760
you know, one step at a time, they're doing the

672
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,159
contributions at the new get level. Fine, you know, whatever

673
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,800
mechanism moves as closer to the goal of making it

674
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,159
easy for companies to do the right thing, because right

675
00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:16,039
now it's pretty hard.

676
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,119
Speaker 3: And problem is that people that have to monet they

677
00:35:18,159 --> 00:35:20,880
aren't part of that quisition process. That's one problem. That's

678
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,840
the one problem with open source. Like someone does not

679
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,519
that package add and and they just add that package

680
00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:31,000
and there's no like, as a maintainer, I don't know

681
00:35:31,039 --> 00:35:35,159
that someone has consumed my package, and they're like they

682
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,519
can neither the CEO or CTO or whatever it knows

683
00:35:38,559 --> 00:35:40,519
that they have actually done a purchase.

684
00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: I want to go back to something you said in

685
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,760
passing that it can create an index list of dependencies, right.

686
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,840
I mean, that's everybody is realizing that having a software

687
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,400
build materials or an s bomb these days is critical,

688
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,920
but not just for your projects but for everything in

689
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,639
your infrastructure. And this is just a way to add

690
00:36:01,679 --> 00:36:03,760
to that without having to jump to a lot of hoops.

691
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,280
It seems to me, I am I based about that.

692
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 3: I would challenge that everyone thinks it's important. There they

693
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,599
think it's important once you have sit down and have

694
00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:16,480
discussion with management, like as a consultant, I like, do

695
00:36:16,519 --> 00:36:19,159
you know the risk you're putting yourself into ear like

696
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:24,000
and then there's is a no brainer. But it's I

697
00:36:24,119 --> 00:36:24,920
really hope just.

698
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: As so we think it's important. But that doesn't mean

699
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:29,960
your customers think no it should.

700
00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: It should be just the supporting important. As you have

701
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,960
a fire alarm or detector in your house, you should

702
00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:40,280
be able to have because if there is something like

703
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,639
heart beat or something else, then you will. I want

704
00:36:42,679 --> 00:36:44,920
to be able to identify which dependence is do I

705
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,000
have in my product to like, because are like the

706
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,119
first thing? Are you affected or not? Or what that's

707
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:56,719
or otherwise just being people wou take rashed actions to

708
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,079
might even not solve the problem.

709
00:36:59,159 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, not everybody listens to security this week and

710
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,320
there you go, they should I do.

711
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: But also you know, an individual developer and given organizations

712
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,800
only think about the things they added, They don't have

713
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,000
an overview of all of the libraries that are used

714
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,119
throughout the organization, and the people who are most could

715
00:37:16,119 --> 00:37:18,159
be most concerned about this, which tends to be leadership,

716
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,760
aren't aware of what's happening.

717
00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:24,199
Speaker 3: So that's what and that's why we like we use

718
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,119
tools to index dependencies and report them back to some

719
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:29,039
central location.

720
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: Right.

721
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,639
Speaker 3: We often use things like actual log analyst disks to

722
00:37:33,079 --> 00:37:35,639
report as a central post. Then we can quite crearis

723
00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:40,760
across things and use tools to essentially what are the

724
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,639
both the direct dependencies but also people tried tend to

725
00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:49,719
forget the transit dependencies have dependencies, right, and that's a rabbitoil.

726
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 2: You have to go down and yeah, you have to

727
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,440
explore the whole tree there to actually get at some

728
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:55,800
of like this is how this is how deep this

729
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,239
thing goes because there's always that little library called from

730
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,119
that other thing that depends on this other thing. That's

731
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:03,719
the one that goes away and everything breaks.

732
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why for reference sea log for j Yeah.

733
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean and you had the thing with

734
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:12,079
open scesses. Well had the same thing, Like were a

735
00:38:12,159 --> 00:38:16,280
couple of people that had little attention, They weren't well known.

736
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,960
Until everyone knows that the whole internet broke because of them, Yeah,

737
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,920
and that was very unthankful for things. And that's why

738
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,400
I think like CI tools and automation can really be

739
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,519
really good because then you can you won't forget to

740
00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:33,719
inventory stuff. You will test and build the same way

741
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,679
because you want your bills to be reproducible and you

742
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,239
want them to be as like things will change, the

743
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,480
environment will change, you will have new dependence and things that,

744
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:46,239
but you want them to be done in a similar

745
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,199
way for all projects. And that's something I like. If

746
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,039
you have something like a program language, then you can

747
00:38:53,119 --> 00:38:57,280
start thinking more like what's the recipe for our bills

748
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,599
in our systems? It can be more like an engineer

749
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,440
for these things too, treat them as just like they

750
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,559
should be just as high quality as you being with

751
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,400
your regular code or video test or everything. And that's

752
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,360
why we have done huge steps with things like JAM

753
00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:20,159
because before we had a point to clicking UIs and

754
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,199
we had things that mut tasted over time and no

755
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,239
one knows how how we got.

756
00:39:25,199 --> 00:39:29,079
Speaker 2: There, and a word documented was always wrong right well.

757
00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 3: And that's the thing with reputation because it's usually it's

758
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,760
either it's where we want to be or where we

759
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,159
were but fairly where we are.

760
00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 2: So that's it's what happened last time, but often.

761
00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 3: Not saber reputation is where they wanted it to be.

762
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,519
That was like the intentions for like the sister should

763
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:51,079
have looks like this, and other things happened.

764
00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:55,519
Speaker 1: I think that's going to be a common use of

765
00:39:55,639 --> 00:39:59,400
large language models is to parse logs and tell me

766
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,920
what I need to today, you know.

767
00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's something's really cool, like being like take's

768
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,840
being around for an eleven years. Is that I'm like,

769
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,840
I sat down with curser one day and it could

770
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,719
write cake scrips for me because there's so much nice

771
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,880
out there. So actually I was impressed, Like how right

772
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:17,360
it got it.

773
00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: That's good and good to know.

774
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:20,639
Speaker 3: And that's the thing about that. But well, if you

775
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,360
have like a proper language with a language server and

776
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,719
it has defined rules, that's perfect for all of them.

777
00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:33,119
So it can good for those scenarios too, Like you

778
00:40:33,159 --> 00:40:37,199
can actually be very productive if you have like constraints

779
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,599
makes you more productive in elms and artis.

780
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,519
Speaker 1: I think that this software I think software development is

781
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,760
one of those few maybe few, but certainly safe place

782
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,760
for l l ms because we run our stuff through

783
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,880
a compiler before we run it. You know, we we

784
00:40:54,039 --> 00:40:56,199
got fact checking. It's called the compiler.

785
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 3: And if you have things like like I use a

786
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,920
lot of we talked about testing in the starting of

787
00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:07,360
the program. You'll recommend like the listener there and I

788
00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:09,599
use a lot of snapshot testing as I should verify

789
00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:14,079
from simon cropt. Yes, so great, very because then it

790
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,840
won't forget an assert, so you will always snapshot objects,

791
00:41:18,519 --> 00:41:21,000
which means that if things change, your test will fail.

792
00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:24,760
And you can also go for more like instead of

793
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,920
doing those really small unit tests, you can go from

794
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,559
the outside in. And that's also really good because when

795
00:41:31,559 --> 00:41:34,199
an LM does something, they will get things totally wrong.

796
00:41:34,559 --> 00:41:37,039
But then you test at least hopefully will fail and

797
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,519
if they don't fail, then you will have to fix

798
00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:42,239
your test also so they the next time you will

799
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,840
catch it. So you're like, you will need to be

800
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,719
an engineer and you need to you need to evolve.

801
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, And that makes a lot of sense.

802
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,960
And it is interesting you see that these tools will

803
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,599
be a way to get into the make flow if

804
00:41:57,639 --> 00:42:00,280
you want to, just because it's maturity means it's had

805
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:01,519
great sample data to test.

806
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: Are you going to have an MCP for for Cake

807
00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:07,239
or do you already I don't know if you if

808
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,199
you need it, but we are like right because you

809
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,760
have the s K. It's pretty self expand.

810
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,039
Speaker 3: But also like for some things it might think with

811
00:42:16,199 --> 00:42:19,400
us to work because we are using for a command

812
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,159
line parsing, we're using the spectraor Console CLI product and

813
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,599
it has now something called and the open sealizes back

814
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,280
built in and some if you have suspect from something

815
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,880
like Commander arguments. There's actually a person that did a

816
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,639
proof of concept MCP just now. Because if you get

817
00:42:36,679 --> 00:42:41,480
something that's parsonable machine, you have an MCP essentially, so

818
00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:46,480
all having if you have something that strongly typed, it

819
00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:51,199
will become easier. And and but I think and also

820
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,719
if you can get more and more users, they can

821
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,280
the advantage of something that live for many years that

822
00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:00,360
they can look at a lot of things. But I

823
00:43:00,559 --> 00:43:02,320
like this for things like the Agent m D they

824
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,719
can put in the postories. We can have the instructions

825
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,440
as you can confined. I think something like we be

826
00:43:08,599 --> 00:43:12,679
learning become better because the instructions to to create boundaries

827
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,440
for your LMS to make the more better context.

828
00:43:16,039 --> 00:43:19,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is great stuff, what's coming up next in

829
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:20,679
your inbox?

830
00:43:21,679 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 3: I will be speaking at next week and dot dot

831
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,599
com will be talking open my cake and like next

832
00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:32,440
by this airs it will all be done. So we

833
00:43:32,559 --> 00:43:35,880
are coming from from the black future, but we are

834
00:43:36,159 --> 00:43:39,320
like we were easing cakes versus six point zero. So

835
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,679
the cake tool will still be supported along time the

836
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,800
st K and we will launch that just after the town.

837
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: Right be thinking this has got to be SYNCD with

838
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,280
dot net ten is obviously their changes the foot.

839
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 3: And that's been our mantra. We have always released the

840
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:55,400
last years when the major version of the next comes out,

841
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,400
and we'll almost have the same day or just after

842
00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:02,159
support for for kate with the dot version, so we

843
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,039
will so we will launch at TWN and so that

844
00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:09,000
would be and will take a breeder hopefully it takes

845
00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:13,000
on Christmas and things. And for us there's been loads

846
00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:14,800
of fun because what I like when there's like big

847
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,719
shifts and st K is it actually see it's as

848
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,199
a big code cutta and some fun. And this was

849
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,559
fun because this like was one of the main just

850
00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:27,000
like when they have DOTTA tools or when when we

851
00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:30,159
had like the Rustling compiler and things that that's things

852
00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:34,199
that we can see like opportunities for some fe and

853
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,559
this has been the whole The new Tennis K has loads.

854
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:38,199
Speaker 1: Of loads of stuff.

855
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 3: There's so much there's so much talk about AI and things,

856
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,880
but actually added a lot of developer good things that

857
00:44:46,159 --> 00:44:49,239
almost fall in the shadow of AI over there. Things

858
00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:51,599
you almost forget a fatigue, but there's a lot of

859
00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:56,760
good things in performance wise, there's new commands, so people

860
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,639
should really play with dot ten and look at those

861
00:44:58,840 --> 00:44:59,360
areas too.

862
00:44:59,639 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: It's it's not just yeah, and I'm I'm really looking

863
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,960
forward to Studio twenty twenty six and just see what

864
00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:08,519
this rethink about. Yea, these new tools come into play

865
00:45:08,679 --> 00:45:10,880
and you know, more and more, I'm calling them just

866
00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:14,039
smart code generators, you know, because that's what they're doing

867
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:15,800
for us. And if you use them well, they could

868
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,480
spin up a pretty good code and if you don't,

869
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:18,440
they'll make a mess.

870
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 3: We've always been going to generate the code, and what

871
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,639
I want to say is that I'm being good at

872
00:45:22,679 --> 00:45:26,159
maintaining code, because that's the next step. They're currently really

873
00:45:26,199 --> 00:45:27,440
good at spitting out code.

874
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we got to get to a place

875
00:45:29,039 --> 00:45:32,199
where the model is trained against the codebase. That's there,

876
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,519
and so it naturally constrains itself to the work that's

877
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:38,280
come before and and you know, sort of keeps it

878
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,480
in line. I think there's actually possibilities there and.

879
00:45:41,519 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 3: It will be interesting with things like that. Would have

880
00:45:44,559 --> 00:45:46,880
liked the new like the framework that has new amdc

881
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,360
ap use. But you have really good AI on the

882
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,639
ship for developers. Yeah, like what can we do with

883
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,280
local elms in concert with co pilot them. Yeah, that

884
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:56,360
would be cool to see.

885
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,159
Speaker 2: A Yeah, trying to get my hands on one of

886
00:45:58,199 --> 00:46:01,000
those d d GX sparks and see if I can

887
00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:02,119
run the whole thing from there.

888
00:46:02,519 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you and me both. If you find a source,

889
00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:04,920
let me know.

890
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 2: It's going to be a mere three thousand dollars.

891
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:08,159
Speaker 3: Yeah.

892
00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:12,679
Speaker 1: Tis you mentioned ordev the conference in Malmo, and Richard

893
00:46:12,679 --> 00:46:15,800
and I did that for several years. Boy, I really

894
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,039
missed that place. I really missed that conference.

895
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,159
Speaker 3: Should go up next here.

896
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,519
Speaker 2: We'll try and figure it out. We will try to

897
00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:22,840
figure that.

898
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 1: But we had.

899
00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 3: It's a great conference and it's good. It's like it's

900
00:46:25,519 --> 00:46:29,639
perfectly like Malm less by Copenhagen, and it's nice.

901
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: To fly in to Copenhagen and take train up.

902
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: We interviewed some of our idols there. It was really great, yeah.

903
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: Back in the day.

904
00:46:38,079 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: All right, Well, is there anything else you want to

905
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,239
throw out there before we say goodbye? Tis?

906
00:46:42,519 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, like hopefully, like just play with the

907
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,840
stuff if you want, and just ping thing else and

908
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,280
give us feedbackcause we will take it where we think

909
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,960
it's probably be. We won't. We still support all things,

910
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,159
but I think this is probably way forward interesting and

911
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,360
if we get that feedback from the community, will if

912
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:02,639
people use it, they'll like it.

913
00:47:03,039 --> 00:47:06,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, And hey, listeners, push the donate button. You know

914
00:47:06,199 --> 00:47:09,239
what I'm saying there, You go give him some monetary love.

915
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,960
All right, Matias, thanks a lot. It sounds great and

916
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,400
we'll talk to you, dear listener next time on dot

917
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:16,039
net rocks.

918
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 6: Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net

919
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,159
and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video

920
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,280
and post production facilities located physically in New London, Connecticut,

921
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:51,800
and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

922
00:47:52,599 --> 00:47:54,639
Visit our website at d O T N E, t

923
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,960
R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

924
00:47:59,159 --> 00:48:02,800
mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives. Going

925
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,239
back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

926
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,880
and two, and make sure you check out our sponsors.

927
00:48:09,079 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: They keep us in business.

928
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,159
Speaker 6: Now go write some code, see you next time you

929
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,880
got jud Middle Vans.

930
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:23,679
Speaker 3: Then on Texas