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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them.
Speaker 3: Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 6: Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host journalist and author Dan.
Speaker 3: Zupansky, Good Evening. Brian Stidham fell in love with Tucson,
Speaker 3: Arizona the minute he came to town. A young and
Speaker 3: talented eye surgeon, he accepted a job with an established
Speaker 3: eye surgeon to take over his pediatric patients. It's a
Speaker 3: beautiful place, Stidham told a friend. I can live right
Speaker 3: there by the mountains and go hiking. It's a great
Speaker 3: deal for me there. The partner I'll be working with,
Speaker 3: his ultra cool is giving me the keys to the kingdom.
Speaker 3: Brad Schwartz, the doctor who hired Brian, was ambitious and
Speaker 3: possessed surgical skills few others had, but he was a
Speaker 3: troubled man. Within a year of Stidham's arrival in Tucson,
Speaker 3: the medical relationship would be severed by Schwartz's personal troubles.
Speaker 3: Stidham broke away to start his own practice, Rumors abounded
Speaker 3: within the medical community that Schwartz was an incensed and
Speaker 3: considered the departure of betrayal. His rage grew, even driving
Speaker 3: a wedge between him and his fiancee, Lordus Lopez, a
Speaker 3: former prosecutor. Three years after Stidham moved to Tucson. His
Speaker 3: life had ended in an empty, darkened parking lot. But
Speaker 3: who would murder such a nice man in such a
Speaker 3: violent manner? Lordis, who had witnessed Schwartz's toxic rage towards
Speaker 3: his former partner, feared she knew, But would her suspicions
Speaker 3: be enough to catch the killer. The book that we're
Speaker 3: featuring this evening is Toxic Rage, A Tale of Murder
Speaker 3: in Tucson, was my special guest journalist and author AJ Flick.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 3: a greendist interview. AJ Flick, Thank you so much, Dan,
Speaker 3: thank you very much. This an incredible tale. Let's start
Speaker 3: off how you came to be in a position to
Speaker 3: write this book, Toxic Rage.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I was working for a newspaper called The
Speaker 2: Tucson Citizen that no longer exists. Unfortunately, like a lot
Speaker 2: of newspapers, it went under and I was covering the courts,
Speaker 2: and the night that Brian Sidham was murdered, I was
Speaker 2: actually just about a mile up the road, and this day,
Speaker 2: like everyone else, I was shocked to hear about it.
Speaker 2: It was not yet in my domain yet because the
Speaker 2: way the newspapers work, the cop beeat reporters were covering it.
Speaker 2: But like many other people, we were very shocked to
Speaker 2: hear that this young, talented eye surgeon who seemed to
Speaker 2: be very popular was slain. This doesn't happen every day.
Speaker 2: And about ten days later they arrested another is surgeon,
Speaker 2: Brad Schwartz, and another man, Bruce Bigger, and accused Schwartz
Speaker 2: of hiring it Bigger to kill Stidham. And at that
Speaker 2: point it became my case. And so from that point on,
Speaker 2: every court hearing, every case filing, I looked at and
Speaker 2: I reported for the Tucson Citizen.
Speaker 3: Yes, in this book too, you take that and compressed
Speaker 3: that ten days. Well, you actually expanded and tell us
Speaker 3: and take us along the journey from suspicion to arrest
Speaker 3: and more. And let's talk about a little bit about
Speaker 3: the particulars of the crime itself. As was reported. Of course,
Speaker 3: we find out and you find out much more information
Speaker 3: and you share that with us, But what are the
Speaker 3: particulars of the crime itself and what is the media
Speaker 3: reaction to this?
Speaker 2: Well, and doctor Stidham's body was found in the parking
Speaker 2: lot of his medical complex about ten thirty and his
Speaker 2: car was missing. They know he had a car, and
Speaker 2: they knew who he was because there were papers scattered around,
Speaker 2: including his car registration. So and they didn't know immediately
Speaker 2: was he shot. They thought he was shot a lot
Speaker 2: of times. You can't tell whether someone's shot or stabbed,
Speaker 2: but they know he's wounded multiple times. His car is missing,
Speaker 2: you know, the immediate thought is, you know, perhaps a carjacking.
Speaker 2: And then as they're processing the scene around midnight, the
Speaker 2: deputies said, well, we need to go to his house because,
Speaker 2: you know what if there are other victims. So they
Speaker 2: went to Brian's house, knocked on the door loudly. The
Speaker 2: door was unlocked, but it had a chain on it
Speaker 2: so they could peek in the house looked very dark
Speaker 2: and still, and they announced themselves and there was no reply.
Speaker 2: They gained entry through a garage door and they went
Speaker 2: through the house again announcing themselves, looking for anything suspicious.
Speaker 2: It was all dark and still, and they see what
Speaker 2: looks like double doors leading to the master bedroom. So
Speaker 2: they opened the doors and they see someone in the
Speaker 2: bed announced themselves and it's Daphne Stidham, Brian's wife, who
Speaker 2: sits up in bed and says, my husband killed. And
Speaker 2: they noticed that she didn't look to where he should
Speaker 2: have been sleeping, and next to her on the nightstand
Speaker 2: were papers that they assumed at the time were Brian's will.
Speaker 2: So immediately, almost immediately, Daphne stood and became the first suspect.
Speaker 2: And over the course of two hours, she kept saying,
Speaker 2: you know, because at first they said, ma'am, we didn't
Speaker 2: tell you why we're here. Why do you think your
Speaker 2: husband's been killed? And then eventually they do tell her
Speaker 2: that he was found dead, but they very carefully don't
Speaker 2: say killed, and she keeps asking how is he killed?
Speaker 2: How is he killed? And they said, you seem to
Speaker 2: know before we do, before we tell you that he's
Speaker 2: been killed, and so, and she was also very calm,
Speaker 2: except for when they broke the news that her husband
Speaker 2: was dead. She appeared very calm. They didn't she wasn't
Speaker 2: reacting like they thought they would but over the course
Speaker 2: of two hours, of course, they asked her if he
Speaker 2: had any enemies, and that's the first time that the
Speaker 2: name Brad Schwartz was raised. That he is the only
Speaker 2: person who really had anything against Brian, and that he
Speaker 2: was a fellow is surgeon. And according to all the
Speaker 2: police reports that I saw, everybody who was there that
Speaker 2: night thought she might have had something to do with
Speaker 2: it or she did it. But from that moment on
Speaker 2: they only focused on Brad Schwartz.
Speaker 3: Now tell us how Brian Stidham and his wife Daphne
Speaker 3: come to live in Tucson, Arizona, and the and the
Speaker 3: particular skill that he has that interests someone to invite
Speaker 3: him to Tucson and be a business partner.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 2: Well, as we said earlier, Brian was a very talented
Speaker 2: eye surgeon specialized in pediatrics. He loved children, and he was,
Speaker 2: you know, so talented. He was well trained and he
Speaker 2: you know, he could write his ticket to wherever he
Speaker 2: wanted to go. Meantime, Brad Schwartz is here in Tucson
Speaker 2: as well. Brad Schwartz is one of the most talented
Speaker 2: eye surgeons in the country. And there are certain procedures
Speaker 2: that very few people in the country could do and
Speaker 2: Brad Schwartz could do them. But he was thinking that
Speaker 2: perhaps he could find someone to take over the pediatric
Speaker 2: part of his practice, and then he could focus on
Speaker 2: his surgeries and also maybe branch out into some lucrative
Speaker 2: cosmetic surgery. He was making, you know, more than a
Speaker 2: million dollars a year as it was, and he was
Speaker 2: looking forward to say, if I got someone, if I
Speaker 2: hired someone to take over the pediatrics, I could make
Speaker 2: even more money branching out with these other things. And
Speaker 2: so in the course of looking around for people, Brad
Speaker 2: Schwartz placed an ad in a trade journal that Brian saw,
Speaker 2: and and and as you said earlier, Brian just fell
Speaker 2: in love with Tucson. He's from Native Texan, so he
Speaker 2: liked southwest, of course, and there's the Tucson is bounded
Speaker 2: by these mountain ranges and one of them has this
Speaker 2: beautiful canyon called Sabino Canyon. And Brian immediately fell in
Speaker 2: love with Sabino Canyon and could picture him and his
Speaker 2: wife raising their children here, and so so he was very,
Speaker 2: very eager, even though people told him not to go
Speaker 2: to Tucson. His best friend said Brian, you don't want
Speaker 2: to go there. Tucson's a bad place. I have bad feelings.
Speaker 2: He said, no, no, I love it there. And this
Speaker 2: this man is just as you said, giving me the
Speaker 2: king keys of the kingdom. So he was very excited
Speaker 2: to come here, and and Brad was also very excited
Speaker 2: to have him to take over that part of the practice.
Speaker 2: And and things really worked well for about a year,
Speaker 2: and then uh I brought UH. Brad's personal problems started
Speaker 2: rising to the surface. He had a very troubled marriage
Speaker 2: he had he was unfaithful to his wife on multiple occasions,
Speaker 2: and he began an affair with a county prosecutor named
Speaker 2: Lordus Lopez while he was still married. And in the
Speaker 2: course of this uh affair, his wife found out left him,
Speaker 2: and he and Lordus were together. But Brad was also
Speaker 2: suffering from a shoulder injury that was very painful, and
Speaker 2: instead of dealing with it properly, he started self medicating,
Speaker 2: and his medicine of choice was vicodin. As a doctor,
Speaker 2: he could prescribe vicodin, so he would write prescriptions for
Speaker 2: hundreds of pills, give them to Lordus and his office manager.
Speaker 2: They would fill them, take some for themselves and give
Speaker 2: him the rest. It wasn't too long before the DEA
Speaker 2: found out, and about a year into Brian being in Tucson,
Speaker 2: the DEA raided Brad's practice and that scared Brian, and
Speaker 2: all of a sudden he realized, you know who am
Speaker 2: I dealing with? What am I doing here? What do
Speaker 2: I do now? Brad and Lords were eventually charged in
Speaker 2: federal court with prescription drug fraud, and as part of
Speaker 2: that medical As part of that legal case, Brad was
Speaker 2: ordered to go into rehab. And basically, by this time,
Speaker 2: though Brad had actually had surgery on his shoulder and
Speaker 2: he wasn't he didn't need to self medicate anymore, so
Speaker 2: even though technically he was not still addicted to vikdin,
Speaker 2: he agreed to go to rehab, which there's a specialized
Speaker 2: rehab in Chicago for medical people, and he expected Brad
Speaker 2: Brian to stay in Tucson to keep the business going
Speaker 2: while he was getting better and complying with all of
Speaker 2: the conditions of the federal case. And instead, Brian decided
Speaker 2: to strike out on his own, and when word got
Speaker 2: back to Brad that Brian was handing out business cards
Speaker 2: for his own practice, he got very angry and over
Speaker 2: the phone from Chicago, he fired Brian and just ordered
Speaker 2: him off the property. Don't even sign on to the computer,
Speaker 2: just leave. And it did. It did make Brad very angry,
Speaker 2: and he felt very betrayed by Brian's decision to keep
Speaker 2: the practice going and to go out on his own,
Speaker 2: so that when by the time Brad got back into town,
Speaker 2: he had a lot of conditions that he had to meet,
Speaker 2: going to therapy, counseling, and also having his medical privilege,
Speaker 2: his hospital privileges, and his prescription writing privileges taken away,
Speaker 2: and so he had to rebuild his whole practice. And
Speaker 2: during this time many many people who later came forward
Speaker 2: said that they heard him talk about Brian and either
Speaker 2: wanting his reputation damaged or having him hurt, like having
Speaker 2: his hands hurt so he couldn't perform surgery, or some
Speaker 2: people said that he flat out said, do you know
Speaker 2: someone who can kill Brian for me? Or could you
Speaker 2: kill Brian for me? Those people, Okay.
Speaker 3: Sorry, let's talk about Lordis Lopez here though, because this is,
Speaker 3: as we mentioned in the beginning, this is a person
Speaker 3: that's integral to this story, but also she's a prosecutor.
Speaker 3: Let's go back to exactly this vicotin which begain. This
Speaker 3: is a serious federal charges. That's why it was. It
Speaker 3: was such a serious impact on his career at that time. Right,
Speaker 3: But tell us a little bit about Lordis Lopez, her background,
Speaker 3: her family before we talk about what she heard from
Speaker 3: Brad Schwartz after this event with Brian Stidham.
Speaker 2: Right, right, Lordis Is She's a native Arizonan. She she
Speaker 2: came from not a privileged background like Brad Schwartz, had
Speaker 2: a you know, fairly well to do background. And uh
Speaker 2: so she basically she she struggled her life to get by.
Speaker 2: She had she got married, she had children, She had
Speaker 2: a bad marriage, and you know, unfortunately for lord Is,
Speaker 2: one of the things is she's she's not she's not
Speaker 2: a dumb person, but she makes bad choices, especially in men.
Speaker 2: Her first husband or her husband was Danny Lopez, who
Speaker 2: was a drug dealer. And and then at a certain
Speaker 2: point lord Has decides she needs to turn her life around,
Speaker 2: and she puts herself through law school and gets a
Speaker 2: law degree and goes to work for the Pima County
Speaker 2: Attorney's office, where she you know, by all accounts, she
Speaker 2: was a good prosecutor. And and yes, you would think
Speaker 2: with this kind of background she might be aware of
Speaker 2: certain things going wrong, but again, you know, not making
Speaker 2: the good decisions. She's working at the County Attorney's office.
Speaker 2: Her her foster daughter has an eye condition that requires
Speaker 2: her to go to Brad Schwartz for treatment, right, and
Speaker 2: and that's how they met. And doctor Schwartz treated her
Speaker 2: her foster daughter's eyes and did very well. Lordus was impressed,
Speaker 2: and Brad showed an interest in her, and she was
Speaker 2: flattered that this doctor was interested in her. He apparently
Speaker 2: told her at the beginning that he was separated and
Speaker 2: not married. She says that she did not know he
Speaker 2: was married and would not have started an affair with
Speaker 2: the married man. By the time she found out, it
Speaker 2: was probably too late for them to just write it off,
Speaker 2: and his marriage broke up and he was with lords
Speaker 2: by when during this whole federal case, when she is
Speaker 2: she's about she knows she's about to be indicted. The
Speaker 2: dea tells her that this is bad and you need
Speaker 2: to tell your boss. She didn't. She's about to be indicted,
Speaker 2: and they say, you need to tell your boss, and
Speaker 2: she didn't, And so when it was inevitable that she
Speaker 2: was going to be indicted, the county attorney requested that
Speaker 2: she resigned. She didn't fire her, but Lords was allowed
Speaker 2: to resign and she still kept her law degree though,
Speaker 2: so she became a criminal defense attorney. And all this
Speaker 2: time she has this on and off relationship with Brad Schwartz.
Speaker 2: It's very tumultuous and friends did not like her. Friends
Speaker 2: did not like Brad Schwartz, but they you know, she
Speaker 2: she was, she was an adult. She could if she
Speaker 2: was going to go back to him. She was going
Speaker 2: to go back to him after even a domestic violence
Speaker 2: incident that they were both charged with and so, but
Speaker 2: they remained in there off and on relationship. And when
Speaker 2: after Brian comes to town, things seems to seemed to
Speaker 2: calm down a bunch and it was actually there was
Speaker 2: a period of time where Lordus and Brad were happy.
Speaker 2: They found a house to move in together, and they
Speaker 2: were going to get married, and that was in the
Speaker 2: spring of two thousand and four. And shortly after they
Speaker 2: moved in together and they were engaged, Lordis realized that
Speaker 2: he was cheating on her too, and so they had
Speaker 2: a breakup. It was not it was not amicable. It
Speaker 2: was it was pretty bitter and and and also during
Speaker 2: this and then but then they still kept in touch
Speaker 2: and she always said she still loved him. When when
Speaker 2: the dea Raid came and uh, no, this was sorry,
Speaker 2: that was previous. When uh, in the fall of October.
Speaker 2: In October of two thousand and four, Uh, when Brian
Speaker 2: was killed. Uh, Lordis and Brad had still been in
Speaker 2: contact on on probably a regular basis, but not together.
Speaker 2: And Lord Is remembered, you know, up until this point,
Speaker 2: she had not said anything to anybody, But when she
Speaker 2: finds out that Brian has been killed, she remembers all
Speaker 2: the times during the dea Raid and afterward when Brad
Speaker 2: felt this resentment toward Brian. She remembered all the times
Speaker 2: that he threatened violence, that he wanted Brian hurt or
Speaker 2: his reputation damaged or even killed. And and that's when
Speaker 2: she starts confiding in some of her friends and saying,
Speaker 2: what do I do When they say, Lord, does she
Speaker 2: have to talk to someone? And she doesn't immediately And
Speaker 2: then but right, oh, go ahead, something.
Speaker 3: Well, I was gonna ask what about tell us our
Speaker 3: audience about Danny Lopez, the ex and and just what
Speaker 3: she puts together concerning some money exchange with Brad.
Speaker 2: Yes, her her ex Danny Lopez. During the time that
Speaker 2: she was with Brian, she still had a relationship with
Speaker 2: Danny in regard to their children, and he would visit them.
Speaker 2: He lived in Nebraska, I believe, and come to visit
Speaker 2: and there was one incident where, uh, she sees Brad
Speaker 2: and Danny go off and kind of wondering what that's
Speaker 2: all about. Brad got along with Danny, he had nothing
Speaker 2: against him. And then apparently at that moment, after that moment,
Speaker 2: Danny Lopez, this you know, low level drug dealer, suddenly
Speaker 2: has five thousand dollars. And soon after that, Danny asks
Speaker 2: if he could take the kids to Nebraska, and Lord
Speaker 2: just decides against it. Then they find out that Danny
Speaker 2: Lopez is killed in Nebraska in a police shootout, and
Speaker 2: he has a photocopied picture of Brian's Stidham in his wallet,
Speaker 2: and there's you know, for what you know, especially what
Speaker 2: prosecutors later said, there's no reason for him to have
Speaker 2: a picture of Brian Stidham and his wallet. And did
Speaker 2: Brad Schwartz pay him five thousand dollars give him Brian's
Speaker 2: picture and tell him to kill him. But we'll never
Speaker 2: know m but Lad was putting this all together in
Speaker 2: her head in the days after Brian was found slain.
Speaker 3: At the same time, though, that Brad has mentioned things
Speaker 3: to lord Us over their entire relationship about how bitter
Speaker 3: he is and how much he would like to do
Speaker 3: damage to this person, sometimes talking about death, but sometimes
Speaker 3: talking about setting him up in other ways to have
Speaker 3: him defined as a as a child pornographer or person
Speaker 3: might abuse people wrongfully. At the same time, he is
Speaker 3: telling other people and as I mentioned Danny Lopez and
Speaker 3: that idea that he may have tried to recruit him
Speaker 3: for something nefarious, there are other people that and he's
Speaker 3: having relationships. So tell us about some of these other relationships,
Speaker 3: how they come about, and what is the kind of
Speaker 3: information that he imparts to these people. It seems pretty
Speaker 3: quick into a relationship.
Speaker 2: Right right. And it was very odd because as you
Speaker 2: see these people, as we learn about these people later,
Speaker 2: it would almost seem like he's stopping people on the
Speaker 2: street and saying, Hey, I know this guy, he did
Speaker 2: me wrong, would you kill him for me? It almost
Speaker 2: it almost seems like that there are you know a
Speaker 2: dozen or more people that came forward, and maybe others
Speaker 2: who didn't who met him either in his practice. There
Speaker 2: was one who went to his practice and he learned
Speaker 2: that she had gang ties, and so he asked her, well,
Speaker 2: what about these gang ties? Do you know somebody who
Speaker 2: could have someone killed? Or maybe you know someone Brad
Speaker 2: was interested in dating, you know, do you know, can
Speaker 2: you can you take these these these child pictures and
Speaker 2: and my own children and put them in Brian Brian's
Speaker 2: office so that people would find them and think that
Speaker 2: he's into child pornography and his reputation would be damaged,
Speaker 2: or somebody who can you know, bash his fingers so
Speaker 2: he can't perform anymore. And all these people, and yet
Speaker 2: none of these people and Lord is primarily when when
Speaker 2: this man is saying this to them, nobody thinks he's serious.
Speaker 2: Brian also, or Brad rather also has this infatuation with
Speaker 2: the Sopranos and the Italian mafia, and so a lot
Speaker 2: of people passed this off as you know, he's just
Speaker 2: talking crap. Nobody does these things. He's a doctor, he's
Speaker 2: you know, an Ivy League doctor. People just don't go
Speaker 2: around doing things these rumors also got back to Brian,
Speaker 2: and he even confronted a mutual friend of theirs and said,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm hearing that, you know, Brad saying bad
Speaker 2: things about me and he might even want me killed.
Speaker 2: And the other doctor says, that's ridiculous. Nobody's gonna do that.
Speaker 2: You know, just just maintain it's okay. You know, what
Speaker 2: are you gonna do. The cops can't do anything. He
Speaker 2: hasn't done anything. You're just gonna go to the cops
Speaker 2: and say, I've heard these rumors. So everybody dismissed these rumors.
Speaker 2: Everybody did.
Speaker 3: Talk about you write about his philandering. Incessant basically meets
Speaker 3: somebody at the clinic. The next thing you know, he's
Speaker 3: one or two dates and he's asking him to marry
Speaker 3: him and get right and getting engagement rings. Now in
Speaker 3: one of these dating sites he's looking at, he meets
Speaker 3: somebody that's in a relationship. I guess he chats with
Speaker 3: them and then says, well, if you're ever single, this woman,
Speaker 3: Lisa Goldberg, then contacts me or he contacts her anyway,
Speaker 3: they have her in contact because she's now single. Like
Speaker 3: I'd mentioned this in the third engagement, he's offering her
Speaker 3: a ring. What does he say to her about his
Speaker 3: hate rich for Brian.
Speaker 2: Well, like everyone that he seems to be coming into
Speaker 2: contact with, he builds up this story. You know, Brian
Speaker 2: has wronged him, that he's betrayed him, and Brian has
Speaker 2: caused Brad's life to be shattered. He has to rebuild
Speaker 2: everything in his life. He's lost his wife, he's lost
Speaker 2: his kids, he's lost his fiance. You know, his whole
Speaker 2: life has been shattered because of this one person. And so,
Speaker 2: like many many people before her, Lisa Goldberg hears these
Speaker 2: stories about Brian and sees this this anger toward him
Speaker 2: to blame Brian for everything that's going wrong with Brad's life.
Speaker 3: Right, let's talk about Bruce Bigger and how he comes
Speaker 3: to be referred to Brad Schwartz for an eye exam.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's another piece of the puzzle too, because
Speaker 2: you know, maybe you could see someone like Danny Lopez
Speaker 2: who has already got a criminal element going on in
Speaker 2: his life. You know, Bruce Bigger is probably one of
Speaker 2: the last people you'd think would be hired as a hitman.
Speaker 2: He's he's from Indiana, he does have a bit of
Speaker 2: a criminal past, but mostly it has to do with
Speaker 2: his own addiction. He's an alcoholic, he's a drug addict,
Speaker 2: which he acquires again like Brad Schwartz, to self medicate.
Speaker 2: He was in this bad car accident and he's in
Speaker 2: a lot of pain, and so he starts self medicating
Speaker 2: and he tries, it would seem like he tries to
Speaker 2: get away from the bad elements in his life by
Speaker 2: coming out to Arizona. Apparently he had a friend up
Speaker 2: in Scottsdale, and that's how he first came to Arizona.
Speaker 2: And and most of what has gone wrong criminal wise
Speaker 2: in Bruce Bigger's life is getting into fights most time,
Speaker 2: getting beat not or beating someone up, getting in trouble
Speaker 2: for things like that. And on one occasion when he's
Speaker 2: in Tucson, he's in a bad fight and the cops
Speaker 2: are called and and Bruce Bigger's his one eye is
Speaker 2: so badly damaged that he gets referred to Brad Schwartz
Speaker 2: for for treatment for his his eye injury. And and
Speaker 2: that's that's how we know. Even Lisa Goldberg and other
Speaker 2: people had different stories about they that they said they
Speaker 2: heard from Brad Schwartz from the official records, we know
Speaker 2: that Bruce Bigger saw Brad Schwartz as a patient at
Speaker 2: the beginning, right, you.
Speaker 3: Talk about Bruce Bigger and Brad Schwartz at this time,
Speaker 3: and we talk about Lisa, and of course he's not
Speaker 3: in an algamists relationship, but he is seeing Lisa. Tell
Speaker 3: us about this incredible dinner that Lisa has with Brad
Speaker 3: Schwartz and sort of there's a funny kind of evening anyway,
Speaker 3: and tell us what happens involving Bruce.
Speaker 2: If on the on the day of October fourth, Lisa
Speaker 2: lives up in Phoenix and she has a uh real
Speaker 2: estate test down in Tucson, and she's coming down anyway
Speaker 2: to see Brad as well. So she drives down from
Speaker 2: Phoenix in the afternoon, stops in at his office. You know,
Speaker 2: she she sees this kind of strange character of a
Speaker 2: man in the office. But you know, the afternoon progresses,
Speaker 2: Brad has to go to a counseling session, and then
Speaker 2: she goes to his apartment and waits for him because
Speaker 2: they're going out to dinner that night. And and in
Speaker 2: the meantime when she's at his apartment, she sees signs
Speaker 2: that he's looking for other women on on websites, so
Speaker 2: that causes a bit of a tiff when he comes home. So,
Speaker 2: so he comes home and they get ready to go
Speaker 2: out to dinner, and they go to this restaurant that
Speaker 2: uh Brad favors, and and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: you know, Brad's getting these calls and asks her, Oh,
Speaker 2: I have a friend you mind if this friend joins me,
Speaker 2: joins us, and so so she she agrees, uh. This
Speaker 2: This this person is brought to the restaurant in a taxi,
Speaker 2: appears a bit disheveled and a bit odd. Lisa's told
Speaker 2: that this man, Bruce was in in uh addiction treatment
Speaker 2: in an a That's how he met Brad. That's how
Speaker 2: Brad and this man met. But the man also asks
Speaker 2: for a beer, and she's thinking that's not something somebody
Speaker 2: who's in treatment should be asking for, and he doesn't
Speaker 2: have any money on him, and and then, probably much
Speaker 2: to her dismay, after the dinner, Brad says that he
Speaker 2: needs to find Bruce a place to stay. And so
Speaker 2: they're driving around Tucson looking for a hotel for this
Speaker 2: man Bruce and Lisa. Here's these things that sound kind
Speaker 2: of odd. Brad asks the man, how di does scrubs
Speaker 2: work out for you? Oh? Yeah, that was great, And
Speaker 2: she also reports that this was the man that she
Speaker 2: had seen earlier at his practice and that he had
Speaker 2: he had some knives on his bicycle and and odd
Speaker 2: things like that that weren't adding up to her and
Speaker 2: making it very suspicious. But eventually, after going to a
Speaker 2: couple of hotels, they find one that has a vacancy,
Speaker 2: and Brad takes Bruce into the hotel, checks him in,
Speaker 2: and pays for the room, and then he and Lisa
Speaker 2: go off to enjoy the rest of their evening.
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Speaker 3: Now we still have this ongoing investigation aj and with
Speaker 3: the police as they do proper procedure due diligence, they
Speaker 3: are looking at potential surveillance camera, they're looking to eyewitnesses
Speaker 3: at the medical complex. How do police proceed and what
Speaker 3: do they deduce or discern from that information that they
Speaker 3: get in the following few days.
Speaker 2: Well, from all of these reports, these are actually a
Speaker 2: lot of tips coming into the Pee Kuenny Sheriff's Department
Speaker 2: about Brad Schwartz, and so many people even more that
Speaker 2: who didn't call have over the years told me, oh yes,
Speaker 2: we knew immediately. A whole bunch of us knew, you know.
Speaker 2: But but some of the people were actually calling and saying,
Speaker 2: you know what this this other doctor was talking to
Speaker 2: me about the doctor who was killed and wanting him
Speaker 2: killed or hurt or injured. And so then yes, they
Speaker 2: started looking at at Brad Schwartz, trying to deduce his
Speaker 2: movements that day, and and and just slowly piecing it together.
Speaker 2: And eventually one of those people who came together and
Speaker 2: actually pulled a lot of the pieces of the puzzles
Speaker 2: together for them was lord Aslopez. And she finally went
Speaker 2: to first her friends at the Sheriff's apartment, because being
Speaker 2: a prosecutor, she knew many of them, and she went
Speaker 2: to the lead detective, Jill Murphy, and said, I, you know,
Speaker 2: I think Brad might have had something to do with this.
Speaker 2: At the same time, Brad was calling her after he
Speaker 2: was arrested, well this was after he was arrested and
Speaker 2: calling her and saying, help me, help me. I had
Speaker 2: nothing to do with this. And from the first moment
Speaker 2: that Brian was found killed, Brad told her. He went
Speaker 2: to her and he said, I had nothing to do
Speaker 2: with this. I had nothing to do with this. I'm innocent,
Speaker 2: Believe me. I didn't have anything to do with Brian
Speaker 2: being hurt. And she was very conflict about all this,
Speaker 2: and her friends, you know, some of her friends still
Speaker 2: in the prosecutor's office, saying, lord is you have to
Speaker 2: go to police, you have to tell them. And so
Speaker 2: they start piecing together, and especially once Lisa Goldberg comes
Speaker 2: into the picture and says, I'm dating this man who
Speaker 2: used to work with this man who was killed, and
Speaker 2: these strange things happened on the day he was killed.
Speaker 2: And once she comes into the picture and she actually
Speaker 2: the sheriff's apartment tries to get her to to wear
Speaker 2: a wire and too and to call him and and
Speaker 2: try to get him to say something incriminating. At the
Speaker 2: same time, Lisa Goldberg, for whatever reason, whatever Brad Schwartz
Speaker 2: has about him, Lisa Goldberg actually you know it, go
Speaker 2: through with it and basically tips them off. But anyway,
Speaker 2: there but all of these pieces are starting to come together,
Speaker 2: and the detectives look into this Bruce Bigger, who they
Speaker 2: didn't know at first what his real name was, but
Speaker 2: eventually they conclude that it's it's Bruce Bigger and he
Speaker 2: has something to do with it. They get the surveillance
Speaker 2: tape from the hotel that they eventually went to where
Speaker 2: where Brad checked uh Bruce into the hotel, and and
Speaker 2: at the same time, they have surveillance tape of Brad
Speaker 2: the next day going into a bank and making a
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars withdraw And then they they they they're
Speaker 2: tracing brad steps, they're tracing Bruce's steps, and and they
Speaker 2: find these people who had been in touch with Bigger
Speaker 2: in the days after the murder, who report seeing him
Speaker 2: with a wad of money. So they pieced together the hotel,
Speaker 2: Brad paying for the hotel, going to the bank. Then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, even though they do not have
Speaker 2: any any eyewitness or surveillance account of Brad giving Bigger
Speaker 2: the money, certainly inferences Brad withdrawals ten thousand dollars. All
Speaker 2: of a sudden, Bruce Bigger is seen with a load
Speaker 2: of money and treating his friends to a Las Vegas vacation.
Speaker 2: So it's all starting to come together for them, and
Speaker 2: then that's when they make the arrest. There was a
Speaker 2: lot of pressure on the Peina County Sheriff to find
Speaker 2: the person who killed Brian Stoodham because the whole town
Speaker 2: was upset. We have drive by shootings, we have gang
Speaker 2: you know, gang fights and things like that. You know
Speaker 2: that you're used to hearing about. But to have a
Speaker 2: young popular is surgeon and stabbed to death in the
Speaker 2: parking lot of his medical complex in midtown Tuson, not
Speaker 2: even a bad neighborhood, very unusual to have that happen.
Speaker 2: So there was a lot of pressure, and so ten
Speaker 2: days after Brian was found slain, Brad Schwartz and Bruce
Speaker 2: Bigger were arrested and charged with his murder.
Speaker 3: It's very interesting too, is that Brad is trying as
Speaker 3: much as he can. Like you say, he's talking to
Speaker 3: lordus and he's talking to other people too, to say, listen,
Speaker 3: once Brian is killed, I listen, I never had anything
Speaker 3: to do with it. He's adamant to all kinds of people,
Speaker 3: including loritis. But at the same time he's talking to
Speaker 3: a detective. Tell us a little bit about this. Very interesting.
Speaker 3: I'm seeing.
Speaker 2: Brad talking to the detective when he was.
Speaker 3: Arrested, and all the the detective that he betrayed are
Speaker 3: befriended within the force, which was complicating.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, there are many twists and turns to this.
Speaker 2: Brad is acquainted with a Lieutenant Hunt, and he's actually
Speaker 2: with the Tucson Police Department, but through a a woman
Speaker 2: that that Brad knows, he knows this lieutenant and he's
Speaker 2: he's trying to get information on on the case. And
Speaker 2: and Lieutenant Hunt is aware of this, and and and
Speaker 2: you know, it's almost this and Lieutenant Hunt eventually loses
Speaker 2: his uh, his his license to practice, not practice law,
Speaker 2: but to be a law enforcement officer because of this,
Speaker 2: and it and in relaying information to Brad or through
Speaker 2: this this woman that they both know who is dating
Speaker 2: Lieutenant Hunt, and so so so so Brad is is
Speaker 2: very interested in in trying to find out how the
Speaker 2: investigation is going, not so much about, you know, trying
Speaker 2: to heal from the trauma of Brian's death or or
Speaker 2: anything like that, but just very interested in trying to
Speaker 2: figure out what is going on with the case. And
Speaker 2: and you know, presumably who's going to be arrested for
Speaker 2: it and charged or if anybody. So so there's a
Speaker 2: lot of you know, there's so many interweavings at this
Speaker 2: time with this case. And and and certainly you would
Speaker 2: think at one point that that Brad would be aware
Speaker 2: that they're looking at him, but seeing that he's never
Speaker 2: actually talked about this. We don't know what he was
Speaker 2: thinking at the time, but but this is just what
Speaker 2: we know from other people coming in and and the
Speaker 2: p McKenny Sheriff's department being aware that there was somebody
Speaker 2: on the inside who seems to be giving information to
Speaker 2: the people that they're trying to question to find out
Speaker 2: what what happened and who killed Brian.
Speaker 3: Stidham tell us about Julie and a little bit about
Speaker 3: Brad calling her constantly and what she reports the police.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Julie Harrington, right, Oh, so many names ys. He
Speaker 2: again is seeing Brad unaware that he is seeing a
Speaker 2: lot of other people and and has has you know,
Speaker 2: heard a lot of what he said about uh Brian
Speaker 2: before and and and uh and having you know, Brian
Speaker 2: done him wrong and so so in the in the
Speaker 2: days after the murder, again, you know, he's talking to
Speaker 2: people that he knows and you know, and and trying
Speaker 2: to support his his theory that you know, he did
Speaker 2: not he did not have anything to do with Brian's
Speaker 2: death and you know, even with with also again Lisa
Speaker 2: Goldberg telling Lisa, you know, I didn't do this and
Speaker 2: you're my alibi, and all of this making everyone even
Speaker 2: more suspicious that he's doing it. You know, if you
Speaker 2: have nothing to do with something, you don't have to
Speaker 2: try to talk people into believing that you had nothing
Speaker 2: to do with it. Right, So all of these suspicions
Speaker 2: and just the way that Brad is acting and trying
Speaker 2: to set up himself as being first of all being
Speaker 2: the wronged party and then having absolutely nothing to do
Speaker 2: with it despite everything that he's told everybody about how
Speaker 2: he wants to see Brian Stidham hurt.
Speaker 3: Now with the information that police already have from all
Speaker 3: of these people that are calling in that he's had contact.
Speaker 3: There's even information where he's made threats saying I know
Speaker 3: stuff about your family, So he's got they have all
Speaker 3: these tips coming in and all these credible people saying
Speaker 3: these things that Brad had said that he wanted this
Speaker 3: guy dead, hurt, wanted them gone. At the same time,
Speaker 3: how do police progress with Bruce and with Brad since
Speaker 3: they're both arrested. What do they get from warrant in
Speaker 3: terms of Brad's apartment, if anything, and what information do
Speaker 3: they have after interviews with both of these gentlemen.
Speaker 2: Well, and that's that's one of the problems that with
Speaker 2: this whole case that that they had, especially once Brad
Speaker 2: was arrested, because he's he's a very smart man and
Speaker 2: and and his his his defense attorney later said that
Speaker 2: that the the mistake that they made, what arresting Brad
Speaker 2: Schwartz before talking to him. You know, a lot of
Speaker 2: times when when there's a suspect, law enforcement will go
Speaker 2: to the suspect and say, you know, what were you
Speaker 2: doing that day? Just have to ask and so they
Speaker 2: can have something later to come back with them and say,
Speaker 2: you know, you lied about this, you lied about that.
Speaker 2: They never did that with Brad Schwartz or Bruce Bigger,
Speaker 2: and so they actually by the time they arrested Brad,
Speaker 2: the first thing that he wanted to do was call
Speaker 2: a lawyer, and and he called He called first, he
Speaker 2: called Lords and said Lords, Lordus, you're my friend, you're
Speaker 2: my lawyer. You have to help me. And of course
Speaker 2: lordas is you know, not telling him, but if certainly
Speaker 2: I'm the one who turned you in. And then he
Speaker 2: eventually calls another lawyer who helped him through his his
Speaker 2: legal troubles in federal court and dealing with the medical
Speaker 2: board to get his license back, because by this time,
Speaker 2: that's another strange twist. By this time in his life,
Speaker 2: Brad Schwartz was two months away from getting his full
Speaker 2: medical privileges back. He'd complied with everything the court's and
Speaker 2: told him to do, and so he had most of
Speaker 2: his privileges back. The only thing that he didn't have
Speaker 2: was he couldn't write prescriptions for very strong drugs like
Speaker 2: vik it in and so so that's a very odd
Speaker 2: case too, because maybe two years prior he was out
Speaker 2: of a job, he didn't have his practice and everything.
Speaker 2: But but as as prosecutors would say, this is you know,
Speaker 2: this toxic rage was building within him, so that even
Speaker 2: at this point where he's almost got everything back, he's
Speaker 2: well on his way to making a million dollars a
Speaker 2: year again, just like before. And that's when Brian gets killed.
Speaker 2: So so so yes, instead of going to and again
Speaker 2: I think probably this is a reflection of the pressure
Speaker 2: that was on the sheriff's apartment that they decide, Okay,
Speaker 2: we've got enough evidence, we've got enough people, let's go
Speaker 2: and arrest them. And yet they have. They don't have
Speaker 2: a murder weapon, they don't have a paper trail that
Speaker 2: leads directly from Brad Schwartz to Bruce Bigger, but they
Speaker 2: have these these chain of events that they can use
Speaker 2: to say Brad Schwartz was the one who had the
Speaker 2: vendetta against Brian Sinnam and all of these people say so,
Speaker 2: and then Bruce Bigger comes into the picture, and then
Speaker 2: on the night of the murder, they're seen together. On
Speaker 2: the day after the murder, there's a withdrawal from a bank.
Speaker 2: There's all of a sudden, Yeah, Bigger's scene with this money.
Speaker 2: So they kind of connect the dots with these disinformation
Speaker 2: because neither Brad nor Bruce were talked to before they
Speaker 2: were arrested, and neither one of them would talk afterwards,
Speaker 2: except Bigger would just tell a TV station that he's innocent,
Speaker 2: he didn't have anything to do with it. So they
Speaker 2: never got any kind of official statement from them before
Speaker 2: or we really don't know, you know, the direct story
Speaker 2: from either one of them.
Speaker 3: Now, was there an attempt you see this a lot.
Speaker 3: Was there an attempt to get any kind of informants
Speaker 3: into the cell, thinking that they might target especially Bruce
Speaker 3: Bigger potentially with jailhouse informants. Was there any attempt to do.
Speaker 2: That with either of them, Yes, well there was with
Speaker 2: h and also but they Bruce. Was there one with
Speaker 2: Bruce Bigger. I'm trying to think definitely with with Schwartz
Speaker 2: and everything, which you know goes on all the time.
Speaker 2: And and then there were there were instances where they
Speaker 2: had these these UH inmates coming forward to say that
Speaker 2: you know that they were they they could you know,
Speaker 2: on on on Schwartz side, that they could say that,
Speaker 2: you know, Bigger didn't do it, Schwartz didn't do it.
Speaker 2: And yet then they find out that it was Schwartz
Speaker 2: who was actually trying to get these inmates to back
Speaker 2: them up, and so they were discredited and not believable
Speaker 2: definitely in court. So yes, they did try different ways,
Speaker 2: and you know, certainly try to get Schwartz and Bigger
Speaker 2: implicated somehow, but there's no direct implication from anyone, no
Speaker 2: credible source that either one of them ever had a
Speaker 2: jail house confession or anything like that.
Speaker 3: Now, getting back to what I think is very very
Speaker 3: critical part of this story is lordis again the somewhat
Speaker 3: disgraced prosecutor. That's with this man and is definitely conflicted
Speaker 3: because she has feelings for him, but has eventually talked
Speaker 3: into cooperating with police. Tell Us about that cooperation, tell
Speaker 3: us about what she does and what Brad tells her.
Speaker 2: Well what also by this time as well, uh lord,
Speaker 2: is his own career has has taken a turn, and
Speaker 2: so so her her connection to Brad, you know, was
Speaker 2: tumultuous and and brought down a lot in his life
Speaker 2: and also in her life too so. But yet, as
Speaker 2: you said, she still felt very strongly for him, had
Speaker 2: very strong feelings for him, and especially in the days
Speaker 2: after Brian was found killed, and then especially after he
Speaker 2: was arrested, and she knows a lot of it is
Speaker 2: he was arrested on the basis of what she told
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department about statements that he'd made to her,
Speaker 2: and how she tried to calm him down, and just
Speaker 2: when she thought he was calmed down enough that that
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, it would erupt again and and
Speaker 2: she would see that rage, and and it, you know,
Speaker 2: it tore them apart, and and you know, basically ruined
Speaker 2: in large part both of their lives. In in the
Speaker 2: months before Brian's death, and so for her to actually
Speaker 2: then realize that he had made these statements to her,
Speaker 2: and and and that perhaps this and this guilt came
Speaker 2: upon her too. Is had she said anything, If she
Speaker 2: had said anything months before, you know, could something have happened,
Speaker 2: could someone have interceded, you know, could they have calmed
Speaker 2: him down? Or again, you know, just or as you know,
Speaker 2: Brian Wentz said to his friend if if, if he's
Speaker 2: confronted about it, will make him even more angry. And
Speaker 2: so she never knew along with that, knowing him as
Speaker 2: well as she did, would it have helped or would
Speaker 2: it have hurt more? And so so so when she's
Speaker 2: talking to police, she's very conflicted, and she shows that
Speaker 2: and and she's actually, you know, at this point, showing
Speaker 2: signs that she she knows that she needs to do
Speaker 2: the right thing and tell them everything about what she's
Speaker 2: heard Brad say about Brian Stidham. And uh, sorry, what
Speaker 2: was the other part of your question.
Speaker 3: Well, they asked her to entrap him to because they again,
Speaker 3: like you say, there's a circumstantial trail of evidence, but
Speaker 3: is there enough evidence? And so they ask her and
Speaker 3: then again she's conflicted. They ask her considering it, what
Speaker 3: does she do?
Speaker 2: Gosh, I'm trying to remember that particular point.
Speaker 3: Does she does she be cord Brad, I'm.
Speaker 2: Trying to remember that point. You know, I thought this,
Speaker 2: we can't remember.
Speaker 3: Tell us about the trial.
Speaker 2: Yes, uh, Bruce, Bruce Bigger and Brad Schwartz are both
Speaker 2: charged with first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first
Speaker 2: degree murder, and Brad Schwartz's trial was up first the
Speaker 2: mckennie Superior Court. And the interesting part about the trial is, uh,
Speaker 2: Brad has has gotten a very shrewd, the very smart
Speaker 2: The defense attorney Brick Starts, who always said leading up
Speaker 2: to the trial, always said that Brad needed to text
Speaker 2: to testify, and once Brad testified, a lot of things
Speaker 2: will become clear. But the problem was that the prosecutor. Now,
Speaker 2: this case had to be taken out of the Pema
Speaker 2: County Attorney's Office's hands because of Lords Lopez. She was
Speaker 2: a pemain of prosecutor. So since she is involved in
Speaker 2: this case, they had to give it to Panell County.
Speaker 2: But they gave it to a former Pima County attorney
Speaker 2: who was, you know, a hardline attorney prosecutor, and it
Speaker 2: was clear through the hearings leading up to the trial
Speaker 2: that she and Schwartz just hated each other. It was
Speaker 2: very obvious from Schwartz's reactions to things she said in court,
Speaker 2: and he actually ended up not testifying because they were
Speaker 2: afraid that his anger toward the prosecutor would hurt him
Speaker 2: more than his answers to certain things like the things
Speaker 2: that Lisa Goldberg said, and he actually told me a
Speaker 2: few of those that actually sounds plausible that you know,
Speaker 2: he could. He had an answer about the scrubs, He
Speaker 2: had an answer about knives that she said, that bigger
Speaker 2: head on his bike, and things like that, and so
Speaker 2: so it was anticipated for a long time to actually
Speaker 2: finally hear what Brad Schwartz had to say about everything,
Speaker 2: but eventually they decide not to do it. But they
Speaker 2: have this parade of people, we called them the cast
Speaker 2: of characters, so many that we had to we did
Speaker 2: this whole display in the paper about who was who,
Speaker 2: from lords to all the women, the girlfriends, to the
Speaker 2: office workers and people like that who came in and
Speaker 2: testified that, you know, I was I drew bred Schwartz's
Speaker 2: blood for his you know, regular drug tests, and he
Speaker 2: asks me if my boyfriend can have Brian Stidam killed
Speaker 2: and all this, and it's just it's mind boggling. It
Speaker 2: was really mind boggling and fascinating, and it drew national press.
Speaker 2: They had forty eight hours there in twenty twenty and
Speaker 2: shows like that that we're looking at this case because
Speaker 2: it was just first of all that you know, the
Speaker 2: victim was this young popular eye surgeon, then that they
Speaker 2: charged this other eye surgeon with hiring a most unlikely
Speaker 2: hit man, and then you have all of these people
Speaker 2: coming in and time after time saying he told me
Speaker 2: he wanted to have him killed, but I didn't believe him.
Speaker 2: He told me that he wanted to have his reputation damage,
Speaker 2: but I didn't believe him, or I didn't want to
Speaker 2: do it, or you know, several people said I just
Speaker 2: needed money from him, and I just said what I
Speaker 2: needed to until he gave me some money, and then
Speaker 2: I went away and I ignored his calls, and and
Speaker 2: it was just an unbelievable parade of people coming in
Speaker 2: and you know, you're just sitting there thinking, had someone
Speaker 2: spoken up, would Brian Sidham still be alive. And then
Speaker 2: on top of all that, the main accuser, of course,
Speaker 2: that the witness that everybody wanted to see was lord
Speaker 2: As Lopez and it wasn't by any means any kind
Speaker 2: of dramatic kind of Perry Mason moment where she stands
Speaker 2: up and points her finger at him, but very very
Speaker 2: damaging that it's her her testimony that really wraps everything
Speaker 2: up for the prosecutors and cements it and kind of
Speaker 2: rings in everybody's ears that this woman who loved him
Speaker 2: and loved him enough to marry him and become a
Speaker 2: joined the Jewish faith for him and heard him say
Speaker 2: all these things and never did anything, and that she
Speaker 2: had this information that tied it all together and pointed
Speaker 2: the finger figures really squarely at her former fiance.
Speaker 3: What we didn't mention was that the evidence comes out
Speaker 3: as well too that he was stabbed fifteen times. Brian
Speaker 3: Steed was stabbed fifteen times in sort of an execution style.
Speaker 3: Explain a little bit more about the actual particulars of
Speaker 3: his death.
Speaker 2: And that's another curious thing about this case as well.
Speaker 2: When you think about someone hiring a hit on someone,
Speaker 2: you don't usually think it's going to be a stabbing,
Speaker 2: at least not that and being stabbed multiple times with
Speaker 2: no defensive wounds. And usually what you would think with
Speaker 2: no defensive wounds is he knew the killer. But in
Speaker 2: this case, there's no no reason to suggest that that
Speaker 2: Brian Sidham knew Bruce Bigger at all, but it is
Speaker 2: it is very curious at the time that they think
Speaker 2: Brian Sidham was killed, which he had set the alarm
Speaker 2: for his office at seven twenty six, and that's the
Speaker 2: last movement we see of him. You know, we know
Speaker 2: that he did. His body isn't found till ten ten thirty,
Speaker 2: but that's the last movement we can see from him.
Speaker 2: That parking lot at that time was very dark, not
Speaker 2: good lighting, and and it was deserted. There were just
Speaker 2: a few cars there for you know, there was a
Speaker 2: doctor working late and everything, but very still not a
Speaker 2: lot of traffic going by that time of day for
Speaker 2: this complex. So so a darkened parking lot and Brian
Speaker 2: had his driver's door open. We know that because of
Speaker 2: the blood spatter, and so you know at the time
Speaker 2: Bruce Bigger did not look like and you know, he
Speaker 2: looked bad. He had a bashed in face from his
Speaker 2: car crash, and he was a drug addict and he
Speaker 2: looked bad and his mugshot, he joked in court later
Speaker 2: he could do anything to get rid of that mud shot.
Speaker 2: So the thing being that rivest him allowed this person
Speaker 2: to walk up to him, stab him multiple times with
Speaker 2: no putting up, no fight, not jumping in his car,
Speaker 2: closing the door to get away from attack, but instead
Speaker 2: walking toward his office. And that's where his body was felt.
Speaker 2: They can see where the blood is and where he
Speaker 2: parked his car are usually and and his body is
Speaker 2: found as if he's walking toward his office and just collapses.
Speaker 2: So it's so it's very odd that that that this
Speaker 2: is how it's done. Uh. They they never found the
Speaker 2: murder weapon. It was kind of curious that they actually
Speaker 2: they took jurors to the crime scene, and the jurors
Speaker 2: were looking all around so they could orient themselves in.
Speaker 2: And one of the jurors even asked, did you guys
Speaker 2: look on the roof for a knife? And the Sheriff's
Speaker 2: department said no, So who knows where was the knife?
Speaker 2: Getcarded along the way, you know, when they traced Bruce
Speaker 2: Bigger's path, what they say is Bruce Bigger's path away
Speaker 2: from the murder scene and then back to Schwartz. Certainly
Speaker 2: nothing was found in dumpsters. Brian Stidham's car was found
Speaker 2: days later, several days later, but other than the blood spatter,
Speaker 2: they didn't find anything. There was a very minute piece
Speaker 2: of DNA on a knob that in in the first trial,
Speaker 2: prosecutors presented as very very low odds that it was
Speaker 2: anything but Bruce Bigger. But then the defense came back
Speaker 2: and said no, they could be Bruce Bigger or a
Speaker 2: million other people. So the DNA evidence was was basically
Speaker 2: a wash. So it wasn't it wasn't convincing to convict them.
Speaker 2: It was all the dots that prosecutors laid out to
Speaker 2: present to jurors that that made them say, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: he hired him. They they had contacts and then they
Speaker 2: rendezvoued and then the next day the money drop was made.
Speaker 2: So so that's that's how you know that the cases
Speaker 2: were wrapped up, certainly, and still both of them, both
Speaker 2: of them always insisting they didn't do it. And I
Speaker 2: had some I had some contact with Schwartz in the mail.
Speaker 2: We had some correspondence because after the trial, I you know,
Speaker 2: as a reporter, you know you're not going to talk
Speaker 2: to them before the trial. But but I asked to
Speaker 2: interview him, and his lawyer said, well, write the questions down.
Speaker 2: I'll give him to him first. He said no, wouldn't
Speaker 2: answer them.
Speaker 4: And then.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I kind of had an inkling that
Speaker 2: doctor Schwartz would be curious to see what I would
Speaker 2: ask him. So we had a correspondence back and forth,
Speaker 2: and he said, I am innocent. I didn't have anything
Speaker 2: to do with it. You know, he didn't, he didn't
Speaker 2: have any He didn't tell me anything, so revealing that
Speaker 2: it would be a ha. He really is innocent, but
Speaker 2: certainly things here and there that are kind of curious.
Speaker 2: And and I was very surprised when I was doing
Speaker 2: the updating for this book, looking at the appeals, because
Speaker 2: both men are still actively in their appeals, that there's
Speaker 2: one big twist that I was not expecting and which
Speaker 2: I don't want to say is what it is, because
Speaker 2: people have to read the book. But for a case
Speaker 2: that is just almost unbelievable. You can't make this stuff
Speaker 2: up kind of thing. The latest twist is just outrageous.
Speaker 3: Let me say, when you do have this, you do
Speaker 3: have Daphne, did him coming to the sentencing and saying
Speaker 3: that she feared for her life up to that point
Speaker 3: and that this felt secure at that point came to
Speaker 3: the sense of the very Again, it's a very dramatic
Speaker 3: scene in the book, for sure.
Speaker 2: Certainly, yes, And that was another curious thing too about
Speaker 2: the case, that she was so strongly the first suspect,
Speaker 2: and not just because she was spouse, because as we
Speaker 2: all know, the spouse is usually the first suspect, right, sure,
Speaker 2: but for all these reasons that you know that that
Speaker 2: never to my knowledge, I've never seen any police report
Speaker 2: that said, you know, they certainly asked for her clothes
Speaker 2: that night and asked her her movements, but as far
Speaker 2: as we know, they never looked at her clothes, they
Speaker 2: never verified her movements that day. And and but they
Speaker 2: you know, they were focused on Brad Schwartz, certainly, and
Speaker 2: at one point the uh, the lead detective, because I
Speaker 2: was just it's just me, you know, when I when
Speaker 2: I when I get a murder case or something or anything,
Speaker 2: I want to get inside someone's head. So this whole time,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, I want to get inside Stidham's head, I
Speaker 2: want to get inside Schwartz's head. I want to get
Speaker 2: inside Bigger's head, and I want to figure out how
Speaker 2: all these lives came together and ended so disastrously for
Speaker 2: all of them. And so so as part of that,
Speaker 2: I'm really curious because you never you never get to
Speaker 2: hear the defense side until the trial. You hear all
Speaker 2: of the States case, and you never get to hear
Speaker 2: the defense side till trial. And in this case, we
Speaker 2: have no statements to go on or anything. And she
Speaker 2: came up to me and she said, you don't still
Speaker 2: believe that Schwartz is innocent and all this, And I said,
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that, but you had a first suspect,
Speaker 2: Daphne stood him, and you know, how is she cleared?
Speaker 2: And her response was basically, well, if you knew her,
Speaker 2: you know she couldn't do something like this. And I thought,
Speaker 2: is that how you rule out murder suspects? You know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things to me that don't fit.
Speaker 2: I mean, of course, Schwartz and Bigger and the juries
Speaker 2: convicted them, but there's still so many things in case
Speaker 2: that don't fit. If Bruce Bigger had access to a gun,
Speaker 2: was the plan really to go to the parking lot
Speaker 2: and stab him to death? And then why did Brian
Speaker 2: have no defensive wounds if a stranger was stabbing him
Speaker 2: to death? There was It wasn't like there was one
Speaker 2: fatal wound and then the rest were post mortem or
Speaker 2: anything like that. You know, there were a couple of wounds.
Speaker 2: I believe that that would have caused death, but not
Speaker 2: it would have wouldn't have taken him down right away.
Speaker 2: Obviously it didn't because he walked away from the car.
Speaker 2: And there's just a lot of things that are just
Speaker 2: very strange about this case. And you know, and just
Speaker 2: you know, poor doctor Stidham that he lost his life
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, you know, uh, bred Schwartz basically put
Speaker 2: a finger at Daphney Stidham. So so that's that's his
Speaker 2: explanation for that. He says Brian was having an affair.
Speaker 2: Daphne found out about it, she certainly would have had
Speaker 2: time to, you know, go there, kill him, come back,
Speaker 2: wait for the cops. And we'll never know because they
Speaker 2: never you know, explored that that part of it. But
Speaker 2: that's what Brad Schwartz says.
Speaker 3: Do you think sometimes I've seen this in a few
Speaker 3: stories in very wealthy communities or you know, suburbs where
Speaker 3: some wealthy people are treated seemingly a little bit different.
Speaker 3: It is like, for example, the when he says I
Speaker 3: have a shoulder, Brad says, I got a shoulder problem here,
Speaker 3: and they're very careful with how they put the cops on.
Speaker 3: I don't know, that's kind of foreign to me. What
Speaker 3: do you think.
Speaker 2: That's you know, knowing Tucson, knowing the way things go here,
Speaker 2: And that never struck me as too unusual. No, they didn't.
Speaker 2: I don't think they perceived him as a threat. Now
Speaker 2: if he had been you know, yeah, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: it was because he was a doctor, I don't know,
Speaker 2: but but it didn't seem odd to me that that
Speaker 2: was anything too unusual for them to do, because they
Speaker 2: did have to free up his hands so he could
Speaker 2: call whoever he wanted to call, his lawyer, Lords and
Speaker 2: uh and Mike Picoretta, who was his other lawyer at
Speaker 2: the time. But it didn't strike me as as favoring
Speaker 2: him because at the same time, the sheriff decided to call,
Speaker 2: you know, make a purp call, call all the media
Speaker 2: to say, you know, come take a picture of the
Speaker 2: guy that we arrested for Brian stid OF's death. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. I wouldn't I don't think is
Speaker 2: showing too much favoritism. And of course we don't know
Speaker 2: what would have happened because they never he didn't want
Speaker 2: to talk to them and so they didn't question him.
Speaker 2: That we didn't see any kind of you know, special
Speaker 2: handling of that kind of thing. So I don't think
Speaker 2: he got special treatment, and he might have even gotten
Speaker 2: you know, if it had been anyone else, would would
Speaker 2: the cops have actually gone to him and talked to
Speaker 2: him before they arrested him and gotten a statement at
Speaker 2: least that they could use later against him. That always
Speaker 2: seems kind of odd to me that they never talked
Speaker 2: to him, and so yeah, maybe things were I don't
Speaker 2: think it worked in his favor though, anything that they did.
Speaker 3: Well, they could have though, because like you say, that
Speaker 3: procedure is I don't know if it's standard, but it's
Speaker 3: certainly common to be able to do that, be able
Speaker 3: to compare statements, and be able to then right exert
Speaker 3: that kind of pressure. So but a very very fascinating tale,
Speaker 3: this toxic rage tale of murder and Tucson. I want
Speaker 3: to thank you very much AJ Flick for coming on.
Speaker 3: I know this is a wild Blue for US release.
Speaker 3: Can you tell us if there's a Facebook page or
Speaker 3: your website or how the people might take a look
Speaker 3: at this work or anything else that you might do.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, you can go to wildluepress dot com and
Speaker 2: certainly have uh descriptions and ways to order it. I
Speaker 2: have a Facebook page Facebook dot com slash writer Ajflick
Speaker 2: and I talk about the book, and I also have
Speaker 2: any kind of book signings or appearances and including your show.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, and it's available online at Amazon
Speaker 2: dot com and Barnesandnoble dot com.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, thank you very much. Ajflick has been a pleasure.
Speaker 3: Toxic Rage, a Tale of Murder and Tucson. Thank you
Speaker 3: very much. You have a great evening.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Dan okay by bue you bye
Speaker 2: bye
Speaker 3: A