WEBVTT 1 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.280 Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and 2 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:54.640 contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman and I'm 3 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:58.960 Joey Angelfield. Producer engineer Mike Tomran is working somewhere behind 4 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:02.399 the scenes. Amusing Jews is a project of a Dotaverine 5 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:06.719 Congregation for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of the American West, 6 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:12.159 and Atheist United Studios. Hey, Joe, when funk legend George 7 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.560 Clinton was in sixth grade, he overheard his friend practicing 8 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:18.760 for his bar mitzvah. One of those Hebrew chants later 9 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:30.560 became Parliament's hit song Flashlight. This is just one of 10 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.480 the many stories of how black and Jewish sounds have 11 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:34.760 shaped American music. 12 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:38.239 We're excited to talk again with Joe Alterman, an Atlanta 13 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:42.359 based jazz pianist and executive director of the Niranua Concert 14 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:47.079 and Culture series. Joe, welcome back to Amusing Jews Man. 15 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.120 Thank you for having me. So good to be here. 16 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:52.280 When did you first become aware of convergences between black 17 00:01:52.359 --> 00:01:53.319 and Jewish music. 18 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:56.560 Well, I think I've always been aware. I've always kind 19 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:58.359 of felt it more than I was even aware. 20 00:01:58.400 --> 00:01:58.599 Of it. 21 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:01.680 I mean, I think like growing up listening to the 22 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.439 jazz records that I just was in love with. I 23 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:07.400 kind of always felt like me and the people on 24 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:11.000 record on the record like had something in common, like 25 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:13.199 they were almost like they were talking to me. And 26 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:15.520 in a lot of senses, I feel like I grew 27 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:19.039 up going to Jewish day school, and I think I 28 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:21.919 felt like, for a while, I felt like what I 29 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.800 had been taught in Jewish day school that I would 30 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.919 find in Judaism. I found it surprising that I actually 31 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.840 found it in jazz instead of Judaism at that young age. 32 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:32.680 But you know, it's all changed now. 33 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:36.919 But but yeah, I've always had something I've always felt 34 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.680 that it wasn't really until, you know, I'd always I 35 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.960 grew up hearing about the Black Jewish Alliance. I'm from Atlanta, 36 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.039 so like we have the Temple here and you know, 37 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:50.439 all the Martin Luther King's his churches here. I grew 38 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:53.479 up hearing about that, but I didn't really know much 39 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:55.759 about it, especially in the world of music. I feel 40 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:58.639 like in this conversation, you really hear about the Alliance 41 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:01.919 and sports and politics more than music. It wasn't until 42 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:05.400 I met some of my mentors, pianists like Les McCann 43 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:07.840 and Ramsey Lewis, that I really started to feel that 44 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:12.319 this was something that they felt too, you know, and 45 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.560 they kind of confided in me that, you know, my 46 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:17.639 being Jewish was. 47 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:19.560 Something that made them feel a little closer to me. 48 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.240 Right away, and we you know, we talk about it, 49 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.439 and they understood that had they been born twenty or 50 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:27.080 thirty years later, that might not be the case. So 51 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:30.360 it was really through them that I started to see 52 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:32.520 this as like a real lived thing, not just like 53 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:35.639 you know, I mean, because I guess the way I 54 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.319 was always taught about the alliance was more like the 55 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:40.919 March on Selma, and that was like that one experience. 56 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.439 I've just learned that it's so much deeper than that. 57 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:45.879 It's like it's in fact, I think it's the things 58 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:48.479 that we love, Like so much of what's American about 59 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:54.960 being American about is Jewish, is black and Jewish and nothing. 60 00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:57.759 Yet, as you're alluding to, the Black Jewish Alliance did 61 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:01.319 fizzle at a certain point on the political realm, with 62 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:04.759 you know, the nineteen seventies and the Black Power movement 63 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:07.960 and things like this that kind of severed ties with 64 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:11.520 Jewish activism to a great extent. Did that also happen 65 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.360 in the music world where Jews and blacks kind of 66 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:16.399 went their separate ways? 67 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:17.439 Kind of? 68 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.839 Yeah, I mean there was a moment I think. I mean, 69 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:23.439 you could still say there's a Jewish black you know, 70 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:27.079 there are Jews and blacks working together in the music industry. 71 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:30.279 But I feel like, up until a certain point that 72 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.079 I'll get to in one sec it was kind of 73 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:34.879 like a Jewish industry and we'll get into I'm sure why, 74 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.959 Like Jews kind of created the music industry in a sense, 75 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.480 but really what happened is around like a lot of basically, 76 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.800 there wasn't really a music industry before Jews came. I 77 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:48.360 don't know if you want me to like explain what happened, 78 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:50.560 but you know, I could just share that pretty much 79 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:56.560 Jews kind of created the record labels that would record 80 00:04:56.680 --> 00:04:59.199 black artists, and there were not you know, before the 81 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.839 Jews got into the industry. There were a few major labels, 82 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:03.959 but they really weren't touching black artists. 83 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:07.000 If they were, they kind of called it race music. 84 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.600 So like for most immigrant groups when they moved to 85 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:13.800 the United States in the early nineteen hundreds, they aspired 86 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:16.600 to fit in with the Wasps, but the Jews didn't 87 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:20.519 really feel that and they, you know, fit in more. 88 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.160 With the black community. 89 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:24.639 And so they moved to those kind of neighborhoods, and 90 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:27.839 you know, and there were people who Jewish people who 91 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.439 moved for those neighbors, who like loved music and wanted 92 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:32.879 to get into recording music and stuff. But there were 93 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:37.279 also people who just you know, they were just you know, 94 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:39.439 there wasn't a lot to do for entertainment back then. 95 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:40.920 So they go to the bar, you know, and they 96 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:42.639 go to the bar in their neighborhood and they'd see, 97 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:45.759 like every night there was some black musician entertaining an 98 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.279 audience that was just lined out the door to see 99 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:49.199 this person. 100 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:50.560 Every night. It was like that. 101 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:53.360 And then they'd come to the conclusion that no one's 102 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:56.399 recording these artists, but there's a demand to see them. 103 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:59.680 So so like a label like Chess Records, they were 104 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:01.720 just like take a chance on all these artists that 105 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:04.160 they were seeing in this club called the mcumba Lounge. 106 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:06.399 And I mean this was like, now, it's amazing. It's 107 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.160 like callan Wolf, Muddy Waters that you know, Ated James, 108 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.160 people like that but back then they didn't know what 109 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:15.920 was gonna hit and what was gonna be a dud. Really, 110 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.040 so basically back then the Chess brothers, it's you know, 111 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:21.319 when we look back on it now, the Chess family. 112 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:22.600 This is why they get a lot of. 113 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:27.920 Stuff, I guess is because their family is very wealthy, 114 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:31.560 whereas like most of the musicians, it took a lot 115 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.360 of lawsuits and stuff for them to become wealthy. But 116 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:36.759 what happened is when they decided to record all of 117 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:41.160 these artists and start their own label. They they couldn't 118 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:44.199 there wasn't really like a blueprint for how to do contracts, 119 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:45.920 first of all, but they couldn't afford to do what 120 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:48.240 you do today, which is basically you pay some sort 121 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:50.680 of advance and then pay a royalty. So they basically 122 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:54.720 just paid everything as an advance and that's how you know. 123 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:57.079 And by the way, like so so say they put 124 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:01.240 out twelve albums, most of the will not really make 125 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:04.560 any noise. If anything made noise, the best case scenario 126 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:06.839 for them was it would sell thirty thousand copies around 127 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:09.399 that much, which would have been a failure for Frank Sinatra. 128 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:12.279 Sinatra needed to sell like you know, between two and 129 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.240 ten million copies of a record back then, so they 130 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.199 sell thirty thousand copies that could barely afford to pay 131 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.160 for the records that sold nothing. So that's like how 132 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:24.360 they managed to stay a company and to even survive 133 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:25.600 past a few years. 134 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:28.040 And then, you know, you can't. 135 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.000 Predict the future necessarily, so it's hard to imagine that 136 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:34.759 twenty years later all these British bands like the Stones 137 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:37.040 and the Beatles would come around saying the greatest music 138 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:40.399 that's ever existed is on Chess Records. Then people go 139 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:43.199 and buy this music, like what and so then at 140 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:45.120 that point, that's when it starts to get a little 141 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:48.720 tricky because they paid them advances, not royalties. That's when 142 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.480 they I think everyone should have potentially renegotiated the contracts 143 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:53.199 and stuff, but it didn't really happen like that for 144 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:56.360 the most part. And so the moment of the breakup 145 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:58.680 in the music industry, the long winded way of getting 146 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.639 there is is that when Martin Luther King was assassinated, 147 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:07.240 there was a push among black people in the on 148 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.240 the industry side of the music for to encourage them 149 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:14.560 to own their to own more of their output. And 150 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:17.319 so that's when there was like this this real movement 151 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:19.839 to get out of these Jewish owned record labels, maybe 152 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:22.519 start your own, or at least on your publishing things 153 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:25.079 like that. And yeah, I think from then on it's 154 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:28.600 it's less of this like Jewish black story in American music, 155 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:32.960 and it's more of like coincidental moments that that include 156 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.159 those those people, if that makes sense. 157 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:38.559 Yeah, and in defensive Chess Records, as you're saying, you know, 158 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:41.559 with these nascent industries where you have a shoestring budget 159 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:44.799 and you don't know what's gonna be a success. You know, 160 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:48.159 sometimes the artists themselves, we're just really happy to sell something, 161 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.240 and you know that we're not looking twenty thirty years 162 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:53.759 in their own future to see, you know, did I 163 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:57.159 make a mistake? And this happened with like but you 164 00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:59.919 know Siegel and Schuster when they sold the rights to Superman, 165 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.240 you know, when they were just kids trying to trying 166 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:05.960 to get into the industry that didn't think about royalties. 167 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.320 And I was just reading as well, Eddie Goldfarb, who 168 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:11.679 it's still alive with like one hundred and four, he's 169 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:16.679 a Jewish toymaker. When he made the Chattering Teeth I 170 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.679 think back in the nineteen forties he just like sold 171 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:21.320 the whole idea for nine hundred bucks. 172 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:27.000 Everyone was just trying to survive. Really, it was yeah. 173 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.320 Enjoining the show, click like and subscribe. 174 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:32.200 You've written that African American and Jewish American culture share 175 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:33.000 the blue note. 176 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:34.919 Could you explain definitely? 177 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:39.240 I feel like so I feel like before American music 178 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.720 and I define American music, what I'm really talking about 179 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:47.080 is black music that has you know, that has some 180 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:50.080 Jewish contribution within it. But before that, if you were 181 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.039 going to be like an opera singer, for example, there 182 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:55.720 was a sound that you're trying to you're studying all 183 00:09:55.759 --> 00:10:01.080 these years to attain this one sound. And then in 184 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:04.879 American music, really I think thanks to Louis Armstrong who 185 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:08.799 was really influenced by this Jewish prayers that he heard 186 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:12.159 not the not the prayer, like the words of the prayer, 187 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:14.480 but the emotional feeling of the melody. 188 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:15.559 He kind of. 189 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:19.559 Made it so the goal of American music was be 190 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:21.960 you the two cultures like the Jews, I feel like 191 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:24.080 the Jewish, the Jewish community and the Black community. If 192 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:26.480 you look at like any of the music that was, 193 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:30.759 you know, black gospel, music or songs we sing in 194 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:33.679 synagogue and just look at the sheet music and play 195 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:36.399 like the melody exactly as written. 196 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:37.200 You know. 197 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.080 I would do this as a little kid, you know, 198 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:41.840 playing like, oh say shallow, I'm just like the melody, 199 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:44.399 and then you know, maybe amazing grace, just the melody, 200 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:46.919 and the teacher would always say I did it right 201 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:49.879 because I played it exactly as written. But that's it 202 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:52.080 never felt right to me. It always felt like something 203 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:54.759 was missing. And that's kind of the soul. Like these 204 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.320 songs were kind of written to be not told, not 205 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.759 with interpreted with precision, but to you know, you put 206 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:02.720 your truth into it. 207 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:05.639 Like the goal with both of those community communities music. 208 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:08.240 I think this is really the blue note is the 209 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:11.519 goal is telling your truth. You know, don't You don't 210 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:14.360 need to be precise, that's missing the point. The point 211 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:17.720 is like be you. And I think that's like that's 212 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:20.120 really kind of become like the American. 213 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:22.600 Message of music. 214 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.000 I think to the whole world thanks to Louis Armstrong 215 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:27.919 and that kind of stuff. And if you don't mind, 216 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:29.840 I'll share one little thing that just came into mind. 217 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.240 I got to interview Mike Stoler of Libra and Stoller 218 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.519 who wrote like Jailhouse Rock and hound Dog and all 219 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.120 that stuff. And I kind of awkwardly mentioned this to 220 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.000 him because I was like, you know, I got to 221 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:42.919 be honest, like this is kind of uncomfortable to ask, 222 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:45.279 but you know this, if you read the Jewish tunes 223 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.159 just as written on the cheap music, the Black Gospel 224 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:50.440 tunes just has written on the sheet music, and honestly, 225 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.759 like some of yours, like have I just play hound 226 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:57.080 Dog as written, it's the the the the I was like, 227 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:00.360 that's that's kind of feels like it's getting the notes 228 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:02.720 that you wrote right, but it's missing something. And he 229 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:08.039 was like, yeah, that's why Jerry's Mike Stoller, Jerry leevery 230 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:10.240 He's like, that's why Jerry and I we always were 231 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:13.679 producers of the music of these songs, because we wanted 232 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.639 to protect the intention of them. And that's why Bert 233 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:20.679 Backrach would come in and picked Geon Warwick to sing 234 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.159 the song he wrote. He knew that, like that was 235 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:25.480 part of the magic of it. It has to be. 236 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:26.960 It's about interpretation. 237 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.120 Speaking of the Blue Note, Blue Note Records was founded 238 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:33.799 by two Jewish jazz enthusiasts who fled naz Germany, Alfred 239 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.559 Lyon and Francis Wolf. What does this tell us about 240 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:38.679 Jews working behind the scenes of black music. 241 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:41.120 I feel like there's a few different kinds of Jews 242 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.240 who got into the industry. One were people like the 243 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.559 Chess brothers who go to this bar and just see 244 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:51.320 an economic opportunity. And this Blue Note example more sheds 245 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:53.279 light on the people who really got in it because 246 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:54.399 they loved the music. 247 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:55.320 Like they loved it. 248 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.480 I mean, I think one of the reasons they wanted 249 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.000 to come to America, I mean, obviously was to escape 250 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:02.519 Nazi Germany, but one of the reasons they chose America 251 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:03.960 and wanted to be here was so they could be 252 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:06.360 near all the jazz musicians that they loved. And then 253 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:10.000 they came here and they were shocked at all the 254 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:12.399 prejudice they saw it to these musicians, and they like 255 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:17.039 part of their mission was not only to record music, 256 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:19.519 but it was to like, you know, out of you know, 257 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:22.519 help their lives and try, you know, so they I mean, 258 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:25.360 one thing that's amazing about Blue Note versus some other 259 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:28.200 labels is Blue Note. Actually I don't know where they 260 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.559 got the money or how they made this work, but 261 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.360 they were able to pay for a few days of rehearsal, 262 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:37.440 maybe two or three days of rehearsal before the session itself. 263 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:42.000 So if you look at Blue Note Records output versus 264 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:44.759 like Prestige Records output, So take Sonny. 265 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:45.720 Rollins versus John Coltrane. 266 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:49.000 Basically Sonny was on Prestige and John Coltrane was on 267 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:53.279 a Blue Note. You'll see that John Coltrane mostly recorded originals, 268 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:57.480 whereas Sonny Rollins mostly recorded standards. And it's nothing, it's 269 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:01.159 all great music. But because Blue Note was able to 270 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.399 give these guys these extra days to rehearse, they were 271 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:08.120 able to get to easily more get together their originals. 272 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.279 And that's actually, you know, that's more money for these 273 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.759 artists in the long run because they're recording their own music. 274 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:15.399 So there's there's more in it for them. 275 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.639 But I think like there's there's Blue Note guys. And 276 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:20.519 I think by the way they saw like some of 277 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.440 the the beatings and stuff of these black artists that 278 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:24.120 they loved so much. 279 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.399 I think they called them pog romes when they were here. 280 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:30.000 But Norman Grands is a similar like fascinating guy and 281 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:31.080 that world. 282 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.240 Norman Grand started Verve Records. 283 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:36.080 He like owned all these record labels and started this 284 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:39.639 thing called Jazz at the Philharmonic, which basically like it 285 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.080 was like an evening of like all the most all 286 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:45.639 star jazz you could. I mean, back in the day, 287 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:51.159 you would literally see like Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Coleman, Hawkins, Elephantzgerald, 288 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:54.639 Billie Holiday, Oscar Peterson all in the same concert. And 289 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.320 Norman Grands made sure that every hall was desegregated, Like 290 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:00.519 he wouldn't let the concerts happen if they were going 291 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:04.919 to be segregated. He actually would like pay to transport 292 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:08.360 the musicians in limousines. He paid for it himself because 293 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:10.080 he wanted them to make sure like they felt on 294 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.559 par with the classical musicians that he knew that they were. 295 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.639 There's all these stories of like, I mean, he busted 296 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:19.159 this cop somewhere, I think it was in Texas. 297 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:22.240 He busted a cop. El Fitzgerald was on stage. 298 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:25.600 He saw this cop putting cocaine on El Fitzgerald's toilet, 299 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:29.879 and he like sued the I mean, he he protected 300 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:31.679 his his his artists a lot. 301 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.039 I mean another story, like he's about to get. 302 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:36.440 In a cab with Ella and the cab driver says, 303 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:38.039 he pulls out a gun and says like, I'm gonna 304 00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:39.440 shoot you if you get in my cabin. 305 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:41.440 Norman calms the situation. 306 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:45.320 I mean, there's a lot of and even like Jerry 307 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:51.000 Wexler is another interesting figure too from Atlantic Records. There's 308 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:53.759 a funny story where his partner was ahm At Urtigu 309 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:57.120 and who was actually Muslim, and they worked together with Atlantic. 310 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:01.960 And there's this hilarious story where Jerryry Wexler was meeting 311 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.240 with Stephen Stills and he was pissed because Stephen Stills 312 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:08.240 was signed with Atlantic or about to sign with Atlantic, 313 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:13.840 but Crosby Stills was going with another label, and he's 314 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:16.240 like he was pissed and he was gonna he just 315 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.240 like went in the meeting and it was like over 316 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.159 in like ten minutes. Steven Still is just like left, 317 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.120 like furious. And then the next day, Omedor Toagoon is like, 318 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.360 I'm gonna go meet with him now, and Omedor to 319 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:28.679 Goon just he goes and meets with Steven Stills and 320 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:30.600 at the end of the meeting he's like, yeah, not 321 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:32.480 only is Steven Stills back on the label, but I 322 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:34.559 got Crosby Still was the nash To come on the 323 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:35.200 label too. 324 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:37.799 They were just like a hilarious partnership. 325 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.399 But like Jerry Wexler and I'll just share one more 326 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:43.399 little tidbit about it, because it's all kind of similar 327 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:48.360 in spirit. I think, like before Aretha Franklin was on 328 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:52.080 Atlantic Records, she was on Columbia Records. Colombia the recordings 329 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:54.399 on that label of her are great, like she's singing, 330 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:56.960 but she's he's not really the Aretha that we all know. 331 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.840 She's singing like over the Rainbow and songs like that 332 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.399 with string sections. It's almost like they're trying to make 333 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:08.160 her be the next like El Fitzgerald. And so she 334 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.759 goes to audition for Jerry Wexler, who's just like a 335 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.079 like a funny, tough Jewish guy, you know. And she's 336 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:16.200 in the middle of her audition and he just stops her. 337 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:19.119 He's like, cut out the Judy Garland imitation. Apparently that's 338 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.440 the line he said. And Aretha's like, well, you know, 339 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:24.720 He's like, tell me about yourself. And they gotta play 340 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:26.799 the piano in my church. They won't play the piano, 341 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:28.880 and so she sits down and plays the piano. And 342 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.799 that's when like The next song she recorded was I 343 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.480 Never know a man the way I Love you, you know, 344 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:37.079 like that's Aretha. 345 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:39.160 And it's not to say I think the most. 346 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:41.319 It's important to keep in mind the most important person 347 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:44.079 in this story is the artist, but you know, someone 348 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.200 like Jerry Wexler in that situation was able to see 349 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:52.559 something in her that you know, she hadn't quite awoken yet. Similarly, 350 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:55.319 like Ramsey Lewis, just one last time. There's so many 351 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.079 things here. But Ramsey Lewis was one of my mentors 352 00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:00.000 and he was on Chess Records, and he told me 353 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:02.920 that basically what happened was he was in a group 354 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:04.920 called like I can't remember the name at the time, 355 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:06.920 but let's say it was the Clovers. It was like 356 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.960 a name like that it was. It wasn't like a 357 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.160 person's name, and it was it was like a seven 358 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:13.200 piece band. There were horn players. But then all of 359 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.920 a sudden, all the horn players got drafted to go 360 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:18.400 fight in Korea. So they all go to Korea and 361 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:20.599 is now it's just a trio and they were still 362 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:23.319 going by like the Clovers. But this DJ in town 363 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.720 was like, hey man, you know, like you know, normally 364 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.920 if the piano players. The lead in plays the melody 365 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:31.640 like it should be like the Ramsey Lewis trio. So 366 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:35.279 they did that and then Chess Records decides to audition them, 367 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:35.960 signs them. 368 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.319 And Ramsey told me two things about being on the label. 369 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:40.400 He said, First of all, you never would have heard 370 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:42.720 of me had it ever been never been for Chess Records. 371 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:45.440 He's like, I had no ambitions of being anything other 372 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:49.319 than this pianist for this septet. But they they not 373 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.839 only made me a leader, they signed me. They gave 374 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:54.720 me a record deal, you know, and there were a 375 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:56.799 lot of artists like that who you know. 376 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.359 So But at the same time, Ramsey said, occasionally he'd 377 00:18:59.359 --> 00:18:59.759 get like. 378 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.480 A a gift quote quote for his wife that would 379 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:05.000 be like a mink coat, and he knew it wasn't 380 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:08.279 like a bonus. It came from something, came out of something. 381 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:11.559 But yeah, I mean, there's all the business stuff. But 382 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.480 in the end, you know, these guys really document it 383 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.720 and preserved so much incredible music. It's like hard to 384 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:22.000 imagine America the world without I mean, for me for sure. 385 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:25.359 One of the most important examples of Black Jewish musical 386 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.920 collaboration is the anti lynching song, Strange. 387 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:36.680 Fruit lunch trees. That's strange. 388 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:47.720 Fruit, blood on the leaves and blood up the roots, 389 00:19:50.759 --> 00:20:00.920 Black Bodies Swinging. In the seventies, Inch Frew. 390 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:10.640 Hanging from the there was a song actually it precedes it, 391 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:12.759 I think by more than a decade. It was an 392 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:15.960 Irving Berlin song called supper Time, which was actually like 393 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:18.160 the first song written about lynching. 394 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:21.799 And so I just think it's worth throwing that out there. 395 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:26.160 But Strange Fruit is pretty fascinating because everyone thinks it's 396 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.839 written by Billie Holliday because it just it's how could 397 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:30.519 it not be when you hear her sing it, you know, 398 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:34.119 But it was actually written by a Jewish school teacher 399 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:39.119 named Abel Mirpol an Able Mirpol. In addition to being 400 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.119 a Jewish school teacher in the Bronx, he was a 401 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.839