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Speaker 1: Jesse Jackson Junior Welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior

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Show on Thursdays and all ways world hopen Johnny Mack.

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Johnny Mack is one of my great contributors on the

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Jesse Jackson Junior Show, and I'm particularly honored of going

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into the new year, doctor Mack has joined us in

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his regularly scheduled position on the show. Doctor Mack, welcome

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forward to our show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Jesse always it's a pleasure happy

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news for Johnny and same to you, man.

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Speaker 1: And I've missed you man. I know that we've had

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some some unnecessary time off during the holidays to have

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allowed us the privilege of having a few days off

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and playing some of the older shows, but nothing like

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Live with Johnny Mack.

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Speaker 2: You're kind I'm glad to be back in conversation. There's

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so much to talk about, Johnny.

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Speaker 1: If I can kick the conversation off with just maybe

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two points that we're kind of going to be reflecting

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on back and forth over the course of the year,

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and that is the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of

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the Declaration of Independence. July fourth, seventeen seventy six. July fourth,

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twenty twenty six, we start the new year off and

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had a wonderful conversation in the last hour with Atiba

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with a woman in Minnesota by the United States of

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America getting shot in the face, exercising what there's sufficient

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evidence to suggest her constitutional rights to challenge law enforcement

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and their behavior in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I'm thinking, and

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Atiba reminded us before the last break that the Viola

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Luitso turning point and the James Reeb turning point were

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significant turning points in nineteen sixty five between Selma and Montgomery.

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And even though blacks have been losing their lives in

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the South for a number of decades, maybe even a number,

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clearly a number of centuries, when white life dies in

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this struggle, it tends to be a turning point in

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ways that we saw with the example that I gave

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about Bobby Kennedy, Johnny, your thoughts on the standard and

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your thoughts about you know, where we are in this moment?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so where we are in this moment first, perhaps Jesse,

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and then my thoughts about you know, what essentially is

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which lives matter and how much they matter? You know,

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where we are in the moment Jesse, is so important

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for us all to understand and to understand it in

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a very existential way. We've talked to our many conversations

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on this show about being in the middle of a

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process that is establishing a new world order, and Jesse,

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we can't spend enough time on that, in my view

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reularly because the average listener on this program, and more broadly,

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the average citizen doesn't have the tools, Jesse, or if

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we have the tools, we know not how to use

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the tools to understand where we are, determine whether that

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is where we ought to be, and if not, where

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then should we go? And again, the moment that we

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are in is not just a moment, it's a process,

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and we are going through the process of establishing a

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new world order. Who's participating in that? My point is

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the average citizen should have us say in what that

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new world order is. But if we don't have the tools,

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or if we have the tools, then we don't know

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how to use them, how then do we participate? And

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why then do we allow others to determine what the

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trajectory of our lives should be and what the social

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order should be. That determines the quality of our lives.

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And therein Jesse lies the problem with the poor sister

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who lost her life so needlessly. It is in large part,

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I argue, because we don't know where we are, We

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have forgotten from where we've come, and we have no

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no of where we're going.

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Speaker 1: Johnny, I know that we're going to be coming forward

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in just a moment. But in this moment, I must

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admit I feel some kind of way about my existence

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being replaced, potentially by artificial intelligence with more efficient systems.

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I feel some kind of way about the greedy taking

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oil from underneath my feet if I'm a Venezuelan, or

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lithium out of the congo. And yet some of the

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poorest people box side cobalt are in the congo without

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the ability to take their raw materials and turn them

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into cell phones, or to computers or to drones. And

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somehow the blessed of us get to take advantage of

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all of the resources of the world, and the rest

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of us become expendable in that process. It's not just

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about creating jobs. It's about for me, creating middle class jobs,

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jobs where people can pay a mortgage, can put their

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children through college, children can look forward to owning the

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homes of their parents, or even buying their own homes

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as first time home buyer buyers. We're not creating middle

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class jobs. In fact, we are replacing the middle class

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with artificial means of intelligence. We are taking natural resources

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from the poorest of the poor in the world. We

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are bullying them, we are bribing them, we are stealing them.

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And I'm deeply troubled by the world that we are inheriting.

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And it's not the world that Doctor King left us with.

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Speaker 2: More.

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Speaker 1: When we come forward with Johnny Mack, when we come

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forward on the World House on Ka Bi and Ley

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Talk fifteen eighty, Jesse l.

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Speaker 3: The world, Johnny, the Jesse Gas Brilliants.

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Speaker 1: To us, Doctor macw welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson

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Junior Show. Thank you, Jesse, doctor Mac. There's a sense

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of a sense of loneliness, a sense of alienation in

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this particular transformation of the way in which the world

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order and the economies of the world are transforming themselves.

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And they don't seem to be as human centered as

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as they should be. And maybe it was inevitable that

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the idea of a human centered ethos driven by a

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system that is a profit maximizing never ending combine. That's

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operating in the middle of a cornfield with no driver,

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but being guided by some kind of satellite for maximum profit.

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It's a machine that in some ways is out of control,

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but it makes mincemeat of people in the process. Johnny,

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the ninety seventh birthday of Martin Luther King Junior is

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upon us. How would doctor King see the world in

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which we presently find ourselves?

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Speaker 2: So I think doctor King, well, not the exact details

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and probably not the same magnitude that we are realizing

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in terms of the quantum leaps. And I use that

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word intentionally. The technology has taken that he saw something

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like this as he stood on that mountaintop and he

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looked over and he saw the promised Land. I'm not

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so sure, however, that the promised land as we are

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beginning to realize it today, is that land that that

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King and vision. So I don't want to mislead our

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audience in that regard. I think King would would say,

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I told you so, you know, and I warn you

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that you should or yes that you remember Jesse King

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said I may not get there with you. Well, that

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applies not only to the promised land, of his vision,

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but it also applies to the land we are in now.

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He knew he will not get here with us.

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Speaker 1: That's deep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So we as a people not only had in

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his mind to come together to realize that vision of

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the Promised Land. In other spaces and places he talked about,

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we as a people had to come together and prepare

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for or what would come if we had not reached

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yet the promised Land. And that's where we are, Jesse,

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to you the question you previously asked, where are we?

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And that's where King says, in my mind, See, I

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told you so. I warned you that you must mobilize

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and organize yourself. I warned you that you must realize

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that a new world order is coming, and you must

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prepare yourself for it. Not only for what would come

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as a new world order, but you must prepare yourself

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to be part of the process that determines what that

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new world order would be. And Jesse, we simply haven't

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done that. And that's why I'm so passionate about this.

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His vision, his idea of a world house that we

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must we must learn. He didn't say, Jesse, you and

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Johnny must learn, and Tom and Fred it must learn,

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and Barbara and Bobby must learn learn. He said, we

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must all come together, and I'll add the words insolidarity

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to determine how we're going to live in the World House.

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And that work we have not done, which is why

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we are so fragmented today as a people. And when

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I say as a people, I don't mean as black

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people necessarily and particularly solely. I mean we as global citizens,

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as planetizens, as people of the human race. I can

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go on, Jesse, but I'll stop and take a breath.

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Speaker 1: Well, I go right ahead. I'm a little bit troubled

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because I think of one of the most successful models

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of a people connected to a land that has actually

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become a part of their identity is global Jewelry. Since

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the Balfour Agreement, Israel a place of refuge for Jewish people,

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with the narrative, of course, of the events of World

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War two that led to the prioritization the global community

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of the creation of the state, largely with the influence

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on the support of the United States given our hegemony

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at the time, and what had horrifically happened to the

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Jewish people the creation of Israel. But today in modern psychology,

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for the world, and for Jewish people alike, they have

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a place to go. It's part of their theology, it's

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part of their existential reality. It's part of the internalization

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of who they are. It's philosophy, it's theology, it's scholastic,

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it's academic. It is the core of who they are.

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Where are you on Israel and its existence? We still

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here in the United States as African Americans are a

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people without a land and to take that which they

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don't want on the surface, or the concerns for which

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doctor King clearly expressed, or terrestrial dwellers, people on top

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of the land who need the resources beneath their land

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in order to transform their existence from one of poverty,

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from one where first fresh water does not exist, from

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one where hospitals are not being built, and when they

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are being built, they're being built by philanthropists on the

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outside of the countries. Because the absence of doctors and

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sustainable development make trauma one, drama two, or trauma three

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level centers in many of these countries, and impossible reality. Wondering, Johnny,

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if this idea of the poor shall be with us always?

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It might have been something that was said biblically but

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the reality is the organized, industrialized and modernized nations of

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the world do have the power to eliminate poverty from

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the earth right now. But it's a function of human will,

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and I think doctor King understood that, in fact, on

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Martin Luther King's ninety seventh birthday. I'm going to be

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speaking at Reverend Will Hall's church next weekend and a

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weekend after next, and I'll be speaking in Walkeingan, Illinois,

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and I'm modeling my speech. I'm going to give away

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my title right now, Beyond Venezuela, modeling it after Beyond Vietnam,

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delivered by Martin Luther King Junior. Beyond Venezuela. Help me

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with that, Johnny, Beyond Venezuela Modern interpretation of a riverside.

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Speaker 2: Well, uh yeah, another of those tall orders. I can't

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wait to hear your your speech at Jesse. Remember we

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talk about We've talked about understanding where we are what

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I like to call both in time and over time,

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and I think that that consideration applies here. You know,

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there's a certain now not yet tension that human beings

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are always confronted with we are Your point about you know,

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the existential what is happening to us right now in

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our lives. What is happening in Venezuela right now is important,

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but let's not let it overwhelm us. So it's that

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we don't understand what is not yet. In other words,

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is this move strictly about oil or is there something

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else going on? Is it about poverty today or is

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there something else going on? Again, we're talking about the

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now and the not yet. Jesse, I would encourage you

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to consider in your speech this now or not yet dilemma,

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and in doing so, think about that document we talked

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about several weeks ago, called Project twenty twenty five. If

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one takes the time to carefully read that document, one

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would not be surprised that what's happening in Venezuela is

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expressly written about in Project twenty twenty five. Please read

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the document. It expressly talks about taking over Venezuela, and

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not only Venezuela, but several other countries. It talks about Cuba,

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it talks about Nicaragua, it talks about Colombia, it talks

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about Magel, It talks about so many other countries, particularly

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in the Western Hemisphere. Now remember now I'm asking you

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a question about beyond Venezuela. In other words, we're not

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stopping we the United States or they those who are

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in charge of our state United States today, it does

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not stop at Venezuela. So you're beyond Venezuela. Is what next?

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Where do they go from here? Well, that's all flagged

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in this Project twenty twenty five document. And is this

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critically important to what is actually taking place in preparation

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for what is yet to come? I can expand on

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that a bit more, but again as the outtake of Breath,

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and perhaps you may run a weigh in on this idea.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm troubled at the not linear nature of the

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progress that we've made since doctor King talked about beyond Vietnam.

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But just how much worse it is in terms of

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the nation's military spending in the modern era, and how

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we've learned nothing that the investments in human capital have

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taken a hit. Twenty million peace people are are losing

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their their premiums are going to skyrocket this week, and

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it doesn't appear that Congress is going to do anything

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serious about them, and this very week, by the end

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of the week, that SNAP benefits are jeopardized. By the

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present congressional and presidential order under the Big so called

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Big Beautiful Bill and Doctor King had an emphasis and

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a focus on poverty and the elimination of of of

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hunger in not only our country but in our world.

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And certainly before you can ask a man or a

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woman to show concern for civil rights and human rights

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of other people, you've got to take starvation out of

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their stomach. I mean, a person who's starving doesn't have

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much time for philosophy and social adjustment or social adhesion.

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They have to make an adjustment that is more reflect

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of someone who who can organize reasonable thought, Johnny, that

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includes the basic necessities of life for which they can

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go forward so beyond Venezuela. With the population of the

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world growing at the rate that it's growing, really shares

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with me that our priorities for the natural resources, the

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critical minerals that we've heard about in almost every venture

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that the President of the United States has taken, is

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that he and in the final analysis, these natural resources

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belong to many unborn generations of people who live in

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these countries, and in a global economy of the future,

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they will have nothing to negotiate with the means by

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which we are extracting minerals and resources from underneath their

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feet are so vast and so great that the consequences

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I think are are just are just are just amazing.

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And I'm stumbling with the speech, but I'm feeling comfortable

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that I'm in, I'm in, I'm in the right tradition.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Jesse, I think we're probably close to break. If

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not now, I sure hope we can pick up this

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point after the break, because theres much just say about

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what you so you know absolutely framed.

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Speaker 1: Here, I'm Jesse Jackson Junior. Listening to Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

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We're in thought provoking Thursdays with Johnny Mack on the

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World House on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. I'm so grateful

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that doctor Mack is with us in the new year.

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We're all so blessed to have his presence. My goodness,

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we're also blessed to be here ourselves more on KBLA

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Talk fifteen eighty. I'm Jesse Jackson Jr. When we come

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forward more with doctor Johnny Mack, Hey, doctor Mac. Jesse

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Jackson Junior here, welcome forward to the Jesse Jackson Junior

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Show on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty Doctor Mack, welcome forward,

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Thank you, Jesse.

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Speaker 2: Good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Johnny, let me ask you a question. I'm thinking

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in this moment that moral voices are being drowned out.

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I'm not going to say that they don't exist, but

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the overwhelming use of the bully pulpit, the overwhelming use

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of the microphone, is stifling our ability to heal, to

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hear the moral clarity or the clarion call of righteousness

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and justice at this hour we penetrate. How do we

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break through with moral clarity?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what a wonderful question my view, Jesse. And this

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is part of what I I research and our work

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is about at the World House Project. In today's world,

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as you noted when we opened the program, today, we

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have a new technological framework. We have AI, we have

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quantum computing, blockchain technology, and so much more. And we

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have this phenomena called social media, something we did not

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have it certainly in the mid twentieth century. New technologies

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have put literally the entire world, literally, Jesse, the entire

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world in the palm of the hand of even some

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of the poorest people in the world. If you let

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that sync in we didn't have that kind of technology.

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Among the things that type of technology does is it

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diffuses not only information, but it also diffuses attention. And

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in the mid twentieth century, particularly during Martin Luther King

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Junior's time, a speech on that the Lincoln Memorial had

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the opportunity to be broadcasted on a very narrow set of.

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Speaker 1: Channels.

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Speaker 2: Today there's an infinite literally number of channels where people

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can get information. Remember in our last segment, we talked

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about King saying I warned you. I warned you that

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you had to study nonviolence and you had to prepare

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and mobilize and organize yourself because again I believe he

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saw that those tactics, those strategies and methodologies that were

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pertident and irrelevant for that time would not be sufficient.

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And Jesse King says almost the as exact words, that

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they would not be sufficient for our time. And so

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one of the reasons we don't hear moral voices, we

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haven't learned to use our platforms of technology today that

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we're so effectively used in his time, including the speech

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in nineteen sixty three at the Lincoln Memorial. And so

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I think that's one of the challenges It is also

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one of the opportunities we spend more time. Now Your

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very radio program, in my judgment, is one of those opportunities,

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and so many more programs like it. We simply have

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to study more carefully and make opportunities available to so

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many more voices because we are looking for, in my judgment,

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that one voice that will be the clarion voice that

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everyone listens to. Those days are gone, Jesse. In this

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same way that building automobiles manually by human hands are

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gone forever. Manufacturing jobs of automobiles, no matter what anybody says,

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will never come back. Our mail is going to be

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delivered by robots. Why would manufacturing a car if indeed

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we have that type of mail? I get most of

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my mail as most of the rest of us do, electronically.

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Speaker 1: So what's left force, Johnny, I mean, what's left force?

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If everything is automated, What is that left for us

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to do? What pride should I have in my work,

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something that I built with my hands. What is left

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for humanity to do? If that's the direction of humanity, But.

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Speaker 2: There's so much more for humanity to do. Remember that

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not only is there a challenge, but Jesse, it's an opportunity.

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Remember that said in the last segment that we are

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not using the tool at our disposal. We hardly know

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that the tools are available, and so what's left is

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to take the time follow King's admonition to study how

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we can come together to keep ourselves informed and instructed

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in solidarity with one another. There are several books now

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I'm meeting one now called The Space of the World.

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I would really encourage our audience to read the book

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The Space of the World, that talks about how new

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technologies is breaking us up into fragmented, balkanized groups. Well,

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we don't work together, we don't collaborate together, we don't

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see ourselves in solidarity.

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Speaker 1: Rather, we see.

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Speaker 2: Ourselves atomistically individually and all against all world rather than

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an all four all world. And so we must all

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be that clarion voice and not ask ourselves where will

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the next Martin Luther King Junior come from? We each

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one of us is that person.

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Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think that's right. But I

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also think that there are, as you correctly acknowledge, so

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many voices, so many different modes and means of communication,

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that I think the distinguishing factors going forward will be action.

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Everybody's talking, Yes, everybody's talking. Barbar On Wine's doing the work.

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William Barber's doing the work. I see Reverend Sharpton out

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here doing the work, I think. And I see Jamal

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Bryant out here doing the work, right. I see Freddie

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Haynes out here doing the work. I see people beyond

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the pullpit or beyond the microphone doing the work. And

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I'm reminded in this moment that the Southern Christian Leadership

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Conference in Atlanta, George had a radio station right next

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to it. When Doctor King exited his office, he had

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as to a radio station and a microphone right there.

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But given the nature of how we used to gather

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around a radio or a rabbity or television set, you know,

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sixty five seventy years ago, it's fundamentally different than this

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powerful little device that has more technology in it than

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someone I heard the other day say the Space Shuttle,

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that the technology has moved on in twenty years, far

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faster than the technology that existed in the last Space

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Shuttle and the last journey of the Space Shuttle correct,

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which is you know, quite astounding and quite amazing. Hard

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to imagine where it's going to be in twenty years

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from now. What we do know is it is exacerbating

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the space between haves and the have nots.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Jesse. And you know it's the point we were

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making earlier. Yes, that little phone, that little technology does

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have more power than the entire space program of the

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mid twentieth century, that one little phone. And so how

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do we use it effectively? That is the question. And

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how do we use it in anticipation of what is

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to come? Yes, we must be concerned, and everyone is

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concerned about what I will eat today, But Jesse, we

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must be reminded. You know, I often use this framework

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that I hope will be helpful. A person who is

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hungry and has no means is worried about her next meal.

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The person without a job is worried about his next paycheck.

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Speaker 1: And the person with a.

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Speaker 2: Job is worried about his or her next vacation or retirement.

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And those with a little bit more means who have

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their retirement secure, is worried about their children's future.

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Speaker 1: Johnny, let me come forward. I'm Jesse Jackson, Junior on

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KBLA talk fifteen eighty more with Johnny Mack. When we

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come forward, Jackson twenty six, we're back in the World

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Pass with doctor Johnny Mack, one of our most prolific contributors.

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Doctor Mac, welcome forward to the show.

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Speaker 2: I'm good, I'm glad to be here, Jesse, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Mac. Shared with us how we can continue to

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support your work.

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Speaker 2: I would welcome visiting our website. It's a bit long.

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It's the World House Project, the World Houseproject dot org.

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There you'll find more about our work and how you

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can make a contribution to that work, how you can

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join our global network and contribute to our work around

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the globe.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that, Johnny, let me ask a question. I

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know that we have a word of hope coming from

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you shortly. It seems to me that all of the

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factors since beyond Vietnam have essentially come together for voices

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of moral authority to emerge. Yes, I'm for the advocation

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of multiple voices emerging in this context and with moral clarity.

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I see more people running for office than have ever

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run before, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are

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from what Reverend Sharpton calls the tradition. From the tradition,

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there is a tradition, doctor Mac, that you are rooted

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in that this movement is rooted in. That serves as

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the foundation for motivation. How the more young people get

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rooted in the tradition.

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Speaker 2: Well, they get involved, as John Lewis would have encouraged them,

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another great champion of our movement. They get into good trouble,

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as John Lewis admonage them. That does require some discipline,

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Jesse and new technologies tend to make us lazy, sedendary,

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spending hours upon hours upon hours with our faces in

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our hands. It's not because we're looking at the lines

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in our hands, but the lines of text in our

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phones and games that we play. We knew we need

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a a revolution of values, as King said, a reordering

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of our priorities. That doesn't come easily. That's that's hard work,

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and we have to teach it. I I'm really please

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to hear Tavis talk about his class on how to

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hold a conversation. We've we've stopped talking to each other,

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How to engage in dialogue, how to listen to each

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other and share our feelings and our thoughts, and how

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to build solidarity around our human dignity and our freedom

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to express that dignity. We have to relearn some things

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that came naturally to I would argue many of us

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growing up during the modern civil rights movement, it was

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taught to us in church, taught to us and our

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social gatherings, it was taught to us at home. Now

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much of that teaching takes place through what we call

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social media, online, through technology, and so we've abdicated our roles,

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I would argue, in many cases to technology and just

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think about it.

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Speaker 1: Jesse.

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Speaker 2: Again, you started the show by talking about AI and

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what a by I might do two jobs and the

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loss of those. You know, we now have AI babysitting

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our children. There's something wrong there. I mean, we must

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question ourselves and the priorities that we've set for ourselves

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and think about what we owe to our children and

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our children's children.

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Speaker 1: You know, our.

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Speaker 2: Children and our children's children, Jesse. Have a right to

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the future. Let me let me say that again. I

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hope it doesn't pass.

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Speaker 1: I like to like that right to the future, some

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some fidelity that we owe to the future generations.

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Speaker 2: They listen. We talk about civil rights, we talk about

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human rights. I did some work with Columbia professor on

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this very subject of a right to the future. We

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owe generations to come a chance for the future, and

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we must work on ensuring that we give them that

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right preserve that right for a just and peaceful world

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in the future.

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Speaker 1: Johnny, A word of hope.

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Speaker 2: Well, the word of hope is that we still have

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an opportunity to work on that future, to pass on

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to our children and their children a hopeful, peaceful and

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just world. I believe that programs like your own, Jesse,

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in the work of the persons you mentioned before, our Arnwine,

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Jesse Jackson, Junior, Revenue, Sharpton, and so many others, but

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not only them, Jesse, each and every one of us.

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I believe in each and every one of us. But

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I also believe in the hope that we will all

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realize that we should focus on and we should do.

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Follow me carefully, if you would please. We should do

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the thing that must be done, that only we can do,

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and that won't get done unless we do it.

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Speaker 1: Jesse.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you may we individually and collectively, but let's think

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about it individually. Let's work on doing that thing that

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must be done that we can do and won't get

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done unless we do it.

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Speaker 1: I I can't think of more profounder words that have

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been stated than what Johnny Mack has just shared with us.

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We hear it in different forms that we are the

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leaders that we are looking for. Fanny Buhamer said, we

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can pray until we faint, but if we don't get

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up and do something, it ain't just gonna drop out

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the sky in our lap. We got to do something. Yes.

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Doctor King went on to say that that faith without

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works is dead. But to pray without ceasingly, without engagement

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in humanity and the work in front of us, you're

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engaging in a form of superstition. And one of our

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00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:06,440
great philosophers Thinkers also said that the Negro in America

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must give up on the silly idea of waiting for

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everything to happen for us from the sky, that we're

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going to have to engage right here on earth for

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the freedom that we believe we deserve and the kind

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of world that we think we need to build. I'm

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Jesse Jackson Junior listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show. Johnny,

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thank you for being on the program today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jesse.

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Speaker 1: Look forward to our time together next week. More on

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KBLA talk fifteen to eighty on the Jesse Jackson Junior show,

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00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,599
but more specifically on the KBLA station when we come

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forward right after the break