1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:44,679 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 3: Welcome to March. Mister Thomas, we made it like February 17 00:00:51,079 --> 00:00:52,280 was never going to freaking end. 18 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 2: Now it's the shortest month of the year and it 19 00:00:55,679 --> 00:01:00,240 seems endless. I'll be honest, February is my least favorite 20 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,399 months of the year, followed closely by March. 21 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:04,879 Speaker 3: Why is that. 22 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 2: Because up here in the frozen wasteland. 23 00:01:08,519 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 3: Of New England where you voluntarily moved, by the. 24 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,519 Speaker 2: Way, and it is beautiful and we'll be back to 25 00:01:14,719 --> 00:01:18,840 gorgeous weather and I don't know six weeks. Maybe winter 26 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,519 kind of hangs around way longer than you would like 27 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,400 it too. Here it is, we're talking on what's today, 28 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,560 like the fourth, March fourth, and it got up to 29 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:32,640 forty nine degrees fahrenheit, which is damn exciting for us. Yeah, 30 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,760 I bet this, but there's still two feet of snow 31 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:39,519 on the ground. Melting is starting. But then we get 32 00:01:39,519 --> 00:01:41,319 the news that we're supposed to get another couple bit 33 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:46,719 of snow tomorrow evening, and we're like, no, really, can't 34 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:47,280 we be done? 35 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,079 Speaker 3: As I said before we got started on air here, 36 00:01:52,159 --> 00:01:54,640 it was close to seventy today and for the next 37 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,000 two weeks it's supposed to be nothing but seventies and 38 00:01:57,079 --> 00:01:58,519 even your eighties couple days. 39 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: Why we'll be heading you're way soon. 40 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,599 Speaker 3: It's you got to get out of the frozen wasteland 41 00:02:04,599 --> 00:02:05,560 every once in a while. 42 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: Yep. 43 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,319 Speaker 3: Ooh, But welcome to March, everybody. And boy, the year 44 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,879 is just starting to fly by, isn't it. 45 00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: It sure is lots of stuff going on, and lots 46 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,800 of stuff to talk about in the true crime space. 47 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, and the thing that I really wanted to 48 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,759 focus on today is related to a case we said 49 00:02:26,759 --> 00:02:27,560 we weren't going to. 50 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: Touch, but which One's that? 51 00:02:30,199 --> 00:02:32,759 Speaker 3: Yes, our precursor on this one, we said we were 52 00:02:32,759 --> 00:02:35,840 not going to do anything with the Guthrie investigation, and 53 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,599 I still hold that. I have no interest in getting 54 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:43,120 into the time frame, the potential suspects and anything else. 55 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,680 They're already way way too many cooks in the kitchen 56 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:49,599 on that one. Literally every person that we know in 57 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,840 the FBI has been called at this point to be 58 00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:56,879 an expert on various TV shows and various other friends 59 00:02:56,879 --> 00:02:59,280 in the public sector too and the private sector. So 60 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,639 I think everybody that we know at this point has 61 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,400 talked about it. You don't need us to talk about it. 62 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:10,120 But there has been some very unsavory and unappealing behavior 63 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,080 that the gu three case has brought up that I 64 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,319 think it's important that we talk about within the true 65 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,639 crime space, especially because we have such an interest in 66 00:03:18,719 --> 00:03:20,080 ethics and true crime. 67 00:03:21,719 --> 00:03:24,199 Speaker 2: Or lack of ethics in this example. 68 00:03:24,759 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: Definitely lack of ethics and true crime here. So we're 69 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,080 going to base this on an article that was published 70 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,159 in The New York Times by Nicholas bobol Burrows. That's 71 00:03:36,159 --> 00:03:39,719 a great name, right, doesn't that sound like a British 72 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,120 butler name or something. 73 00:03:40,919 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: With a hyphen in the middle there. 74 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that name. That's fantastic. So this was 75 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,960 published in The New York Times February twenty fifth, and 76 00:03:50,199 --> 00:03:55,120 it is about a fifth grade teacher who ultimately ended 77 00:03:55,199 --> 00:04:00,000 up on the wrong side of online influencers and true 78 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,879 enthusiasts when it was thought that he was part of 79 00:04:02,919 --> 00:04:06,240 the Nancy Guthrie investigation. So we'll go ahead and do 80 00:04:06,319 --> 00:04:08,400 what we have done a couple of times before when 81 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:11,759 we're featuring articles from the New York Times. I'll read 82 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,079 Bill will offer color commentary, and we'll give you our 83 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:17,759 thoughts on this whole entire matter. 84 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: And we'll do our best to link to this story 85 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,800 from the New York Times. With a lot of newspapers, 86 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,040 we can't always guarantee that everyone around the world will 87 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,639 have full access, but we'll do our best to provide 88 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,600 the text as well, although Kristen will be walking you 89 00:04:34,639 --> 00:04:36,040 through it. Yes. 90 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,759 Speaker 3: Great. So the headline for this reads, online accusations in 91 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:47,040 Guthrie abduction leave one family scared, numb and the subhead. 92 00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:49,920 A fifth grade teacher and his principal wife hid in 93 00:04:49,959 --> 00:04:52,360 their bedroom as dozens of people who believed he might 94 00:04:52,399 --> 00:04:56,879 be a kidnapper appeared on the suburban street. All right, 95 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,680 the article starts this way. A six year old boy 96 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,040 in area Zena spent his first night away from his 97 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,120 parents this month, not because he was at a sleepover 98 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,399 or away at camp. It was because people had descended 99 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:12,120 on his parents' suburban Tucson street thinking that his father 100 00:05:12,399 --> 00:05:16,879 might be the man who had abducted Nancy Guthrie. The 101 00:05:16,959 --> 00:05:20,560 boy's father, Dominic Evans, a forty eight year old elementary 102 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,800 school teacher, plays drums in a band with one of Ms. 103 00:05:23,959 --> 00:05:28,160 Guthrie's sons in law. For some people, that coupled with 104 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:32,000 mister evans nineteen ninety nine arrest for drunkenly swiping a 105 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,279 calculator and watch while out at a bar, was enough 106 00:05:35,639 --> 00:05:37,720 he became their prime suspect. 107 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: Oh boy, here we go. There hasn't been enough false 108 00:05:44,319 --> 00:05:50,079 accusation in the Guthrie case, with a number of people, 109 00:05:50,399 --> 00:05:53,319 many of whom are mentioned in this article, being accused 110 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,560 of being the kidnapper of Nancy Guthrie. It's I don't 111 00:05:58,560 --> 00:05:59,639 know what people are thinking. 112 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, this doesn't even seem anything like this only seems 113 00:06:04,319 --> 00:06:09,519 like juilt by association. If that, yeah, that's crazy. The 114 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,959 accusations were levied online, but they've become a real life 115 00:06:13,079 --> 00:06:16,000 nightmare for mister Evans and his wife. They hid in 116 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,000 their bedroom with the lights off that night, too frightened 117 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,879 to pick up their son from his grandmother's house for 118 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:26,680 fear of being followed. Days later, another swarm of journalists, 119 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,319 live streamers, and gawkers photographed the family's home and not 120 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,040 on their neighbor's doors. 121 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 2: And none of these people are in law enforcement. In 122 00:06:36,199 --> 00:06:40,839 other words, if there was a legitimate reason for law 123 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:48,160 enforcement to look at the Evans family and as a 124 00:06:48,199 --> 00:06:54,920 couple for kidnapping, that's one thing. But none of these 125 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:03,079 people are operating in any official Journalists, live streamers, and 126 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:08,240 gawkers photograph the family's home and knocked on their neighbor's door. 127 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,240 This is insane, and that too. 128 00:07:12,319 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 3: The accusations were levied online. Sure, because everything that's trustworthy 129 00:07:17,839 --> 00:07:21,759 and good must come from online. All I can do 130 00:07:21,879 --> 00:07:25,160 is roll my eyes at that. You can't trust anything 131 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,439 that you see online anymore? And I say that as 132 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,800 somebody who puts a lot of our content out online, 133 00:07:31,279 --> 00:07:34,720 I feel like at this point, anybody who accuses anyone 134 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,480 else of something online, you've got a way heavier burden 135 00:07:38,519 --> 00:07:40,399 of proof than anyone else does. 136 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,079 Speaker 2: And I think about the dozens of people that we've 137 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,040 looked at as potentially involved in the Colonial Parkway murders, 138 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:56,439 and we've been extremely careful about not naming names for individuals. Now, 139 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,079 it's one thing. If someone's dead, I think at that 140 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,439 point their game, and certainly I'm willing to discuss it. 141 00:08:02,519 --> 00:08:06,720 But for a couple like this, mister Evans is an 142 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,639 elementary school teacher, his wife is a principal, this is 143 00:08:10,839 --> 00:08:15,120 crazy and could really damage their reputation exactly. 144 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,439 Speaker 3: The article continues, The couple, who met years ago in 145 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,160 the copy room of the school where they weren't true 146 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,600 story have tried to live a private life in a 147 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,959 quiet neighborhood where they're raising three boys. Instead, they've become 148 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,919 the latest victims of America's Internet enabled fascination with crime 149 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,279 and amateur efforts to solve the disappearance of msgu three, 150 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,600 the eighty four year old mother of the television host 151 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:49,960 Savannah Guthrie, Okay, let's look at Internet enabled fascination with crime. 152 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: I'll let you start now. 153 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:58,039 Speaker 3: Granted, the fascination with true crime is not new. Obviously, 154 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,799 it's not new. It was happening as far back and 155 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,960 even further back as Edgar Allen Poe trying to solve 156 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,399 a notorious New York cold case in one of his 157 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,919 short stories. This is not a new thing that came 158 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:18,720 around when computers came around. But the Internet does enable 159 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,879 us to share content widely and quickly, and it has 160 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:31,360 definitely allowed, i think, for people's worst instincts to come 161 00:09:31,399 --> 00:09:36,720 out when it comes to accusing people willingly online. People 162 00:09:36,799 --> 00:09:40,200 seem to think and we tell this to our students 163 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,559 all the time as teachers. You have to think about 164 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,159 what you say online, and if you're not willing to 165 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,279 say something to a person's face, you should not be 166 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,360 willing to put it up online. But very obviously the 167 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,559 adults of the world have forgotten that as well, or 168 00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:00,679 never learned it in the first place. You have people 169 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,559 who hide behind their screen or their screen names, and 170 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,799 they figure, let's go ahead and lobby accusations at people, 171 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,480 or let's use our internet connection to a stream live 172 00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:17,360 stream from the crime scene or something like that. I 173 00:10:17,399 --> 00:10:20,519 don't love what the internet has done to true crime. 174 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,919 Speaker 2: And this isn't like we're talking about Jack the Ripper 175 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,799 in the eighteen eighties, where everyone involved in that case 176 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,720 would have long since been dead. So if you're putting 177 00:10:32,759 --> 00:10:36,080 out a theory, I think so and so is the 178 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,399 real Jack the Ripper. You're not damaging that person's reputation 179 00:10:40,759 --> 00:10:44,720 or their ability to make a living or cause people 180 00:10:44,759 --> 00:10:50,200 to follow them down the street. But this is all 181 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:55,879 happening in real time. Nancy Guthrie is still missing. It's 182 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,360 been more than a month. It's a terribly upsetting case. 183 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,399 I know it's created a lot of media attention and 184 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,600 even fascination, and people ask us about it all the time. 185 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,799 But we're not out there tossing out accusations and damaging 186 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:18,000 people's reputations, which is exactly what's happening in this couple 187 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,120 in Tucson, Arizona. 188 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 3: The article continues, it doesn't matter that mister Evans spoke 189 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,120 to investigators two weeks ago for roughly forty minutes and 190 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,840 hasn't heard from them since. On social media, there are 191 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:35,759 people who are sure the stea mask man at MSGA 192 00:11:35,879 --> 00:11:39,000 three's doorstep in the early hours of February. First was 193 00:11:39,039 --> 00:11:44,519 mister Evans. It's in the eyes, they say. The number 194 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,039 of times that I have heard recently of people saying 195 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:50,799 I know exactly who it is. Those eyes look evil, 196 00:11:50,879 --> 00:11:53,519 those eyes look like this, those eyes look like that. 197 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,039 So many people are jumping on the it's a woman's 198 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,639 eyes and immediately jumped to missus Cush three his daughter 199 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,360 in lacked. I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I don't 200 00:12:03,399 --> 00:12:05,679 buy that you can tell who the person is by 201 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:06,240 their eyes. 202 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: No, it's absurd. Now are the eyes striking? Yes? Are 203 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,720 they actually I'll use the word pretty. They had This 204 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:19,759 person had pretty eyes. But I can't tell you whether 205 00:12:19,799 --> 00:12:22,360 that's a man or a woman. And I sure as 206 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,200 heck can't tell you that's mister Evans or anybody else. 207 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:32,039 This is completely insane, and I don't think people are 208 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,840 thinking through how much potential damage they could be doing 209 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,799 both to the investigation, because none of this is particularly helpful. 210 00:12:40,519 --> 00:12:46,399 Law enforcement already spoke to mister Evans, he interviewed him, 211 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,919 and then moved on. He didn't seem to them the professionals, 212 00:12:51,639 --> 00:12:54,879 to be a likely suspect. Now are they going to 213 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,039 look at a lot of people, you bet. And we've 214 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,159 told people here one hundred and fifty persons of interest 215 00:13:02,519 --> 00:13:05,279 in the Colonial Parkway murders, and that number probably grew 216 00:13:06,039 --> 00:13:10,360 after they gave us that number. So I understand that 217 00:13:10,399 --> 00:13:12,919 when you have a wide ranging case, they're going to 218 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,039 look at a lot of different people. But that doesn't 219 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,799 mean that we should be throwing their names out on 220 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:19,720 the world wide Web. 221 00:13:20,799 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 3: Mister Evans and his wife Andrea spoke publicly for the 222 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,159 first time in an interview with The New York Times 223 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:29,679 in Tucson this week. Both were often near tears as 224 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,000 they described a blur of disturbing events. I feel like 225 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:37,080 someone's taken my name, mister Evans said, but for what reasons. 226 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:42,000 I don't know. Monetary clickbait to be relevant entertainment. But 227 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,360 they are innocent people that get hurt. Sheriff Chris Nanios 228 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:50,159 of Pima County, Arizona, who's leading the investigation with the FBI, 229 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,120 and in an interview that he was frustrated by many 230 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,000 of the accusations. He said he did not want to 231 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,000 publicly rule at anyone beyond missus Guthrie's relatives and their spouse. 232 00:14:00,039 --> 00:14:03,320 Else is whom he cleared last week, but he said 233 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:06,519 he selt for mister Evans. He's going through hell and 234 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,279 it is horrible. Sheriff Ninos said, I don't know what 235 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,840 to tell him except he probably should be speaking with 236 00:14:12,879 --> 00:14:15,519 some attorneys and sue some of these people for libel. 237 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:18,480 I wish I could jump out and defend every single 238 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:20,960 one of them that's been falsely accused. He added. 239 00:14:21,559 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: Now, it's interesting the Sheriff Nanios did feel it was 240 00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:33,600 important enough to clear the Guthrie relatives and their spouses 241 00:14:34,919 --> 00:14:39,919 because that speculation had gotten so bad and people were 242 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:46,279 insisting it was the brother in law. This is crazy and. 243 00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:48,679 Speaker 3: It and there are still people insisting it. 244 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,759 Speaker 2: And a complete distraction. Now, I think you just have 245 00:14:51,879 --> 00:14:56,240 to let the investigation unfold, and that means let the 246 00:14:56,279 --> 00:14:57,879 investigators do their work. 247 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you, but it's I cannot imagine 248 00:15:04,279 --> 00:15:08,639 what it must be to be the sheriff in charge 249 00:15:08,799 --> 00:15:12,600 of the true crime case that is riveting in the country. Obviously, 250 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,120 that was the case for the sheriff in Moscow, Idaho, 251 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,440 when the Idaho four case was at the forefront, and 252 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:21,120 it's the same here for the sheriff of Pima County 253 00:15:21,759 --> 00:15:27,159 because we have a true crime subculture that is so 254 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:32,200 ravenous that it's not willing to let investigations unfold, and 255 00:15:32,279 --> 00:15:36,279 instead it wants to leap ahead and say, oh, I 256 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,879 can solve it, I can solve it faster, I can 257 00:15:38,919 --> 00:15:42,320 solve it better, or I can create a more interesting story. 258 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: And there were false accusations in the Idaho four case. 259 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,799 As a matter of fact, I've read the other day 260 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:53,360 that one individual who was accused falsely, of course, is 261 00:15:53,399 --> 00:15:55,840 now I think going to be suing some of the 262 00:15:55,879 --> 00:16:01,440 individuals who insisted that he was involved in the Idaho 263 00:16:01,519 --> 00:16:05,000 for murders, which were absolutely horrible. But if you think 264 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,279 about it, letting the investigators do their work, and we 265 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,440 knew some of the people that worked on that case, 266 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,080 including the folks at Athram, that case was actually solved 267 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:21,799 fairly quickly. They were able to get some good working 268 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,159 some good workable DNA samples, and they were actually able 269 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,240 to put that case together quite rapidly. So this whole 270 00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:35,600 rabid I'm going to go out there and I'm going 271 00:16:35,679 --> 00:16:39,879 to start naming names. You're destroying people's reputations. 272 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, and for no reason that I can think of 273 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,279 other than clicks, trying to stay relevant, trying to get 274 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,240 people engaged. It's very confounding. Mister evans connection to the 275 00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:54,840 Guthrie family began in two thousand and seven when he 276 00:16:54,919 --> 00:16:58,480 joined a rock band called Early Black with Tamaso Chioni 277 00:16:58,879 --> 00:17:01,960 after responding to a gigslist dad, and the two started 278 00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:05,880 jamming regularly with a guitarist. At some point, mister Chiani, 279 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,240 the bassist, mentioned that he was married to the elder 280 00:17:08,279 --> 00:17:12,440 sister of Savannah Guthrie, the Today Show host. Mister Evans 281 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,319 said he met Nancy Guffrey only once, in twenty eleven, 282 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:17,519 when he brought his oldest son to hunt for Easter 283 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:20,319 eggs at her home, which sounds like such a grandmother 284 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,200 type thing to do. It's so sweet. It's sounds so sweet. 285 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,640 Mister Evans recalls vividly what he was doing when he 286 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,799 learned that something had happened to her. It was the 287 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,359 night of February first, and he and his wife were 288 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,119 putting their two younger sons to bed in separate rooms, 289 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,799 each line with one son until he fell asleep. As 290 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,039 Ms Evans scrolled through Instagram from her son's bed, she 291 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,400 saw that Miss Gusrie had been reported missing. She texted 292 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,440 her husband in the other room, and he responded with disbeliefs. 293 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: There's something about this that feels so much like modern life. 294 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,480 Here here's mom and dad lying down with the two 295 00:17:54,759 --> 00:17:57,240 little boys to get them to go to sleep, and 296 00:17:57,319 --> 00:18:01,720 their text one room of the house to another. That 297 00:18:01,759 --> 00:18:04,880 part just made me laugh, because we don't have kids 298 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,000 at home anymore. But Pamela and I often text each 299 00:18:08,039 --> 00:18:09,720 other from different rooms in the house. 300 00:18:10,079 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 3: I was gonna say, you're usually in the library and 301 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,079 she's in the studio. I imagine you guys probably send 302 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:16,279 each other messages that way. 303 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,599 Speaker 2: It's two flights up. She's upstairs in the beautiful attic 304 00:18:20,839 --> 00:18:24,480 art studio, and I'm down here in the podcast layer. 305 00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:29,240 And yeah, we do that a lot. You're listening to 306 00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:32,279 Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word 307 00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:39,759 from our sponsors, We're back here at mindover Murder. 308 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,319 Speaker 3: I think you guys should run like a speaking tube 309 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,680 or something from your desk up to the attic, and 310 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:47,599 that way you can yell things up and down to 311 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:48,000 each other. 312 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,319 Speaker 2: That would be very cool. And I this is the 313 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,799 kind of house that should have a dumbwaiter. I'd like 314 00:18:53,839 --> 00:18:56,960 to have a dumbwaiter that can go Yeah, things up 315 00:18:57,039 --> 00:18:57,960 and down the stairs. 316 00:18:58,519 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 3: Wait, like your house is probably all enough to have 317 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:01,720 secret passages and stuff. 318 00:19:01,799 --> 00:19:05,519 Speaker 2: Ray, I haven't found them yet, though, We'll keep looking. 319 00:19:06,279 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 3: Mister Evans sent a message to mister Chianny telling him 320 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,960 he was there to support him, but within days the 321 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,799 storm of accusations came for them both. In the first 322 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:17,759 days after Ms Guthrie was abducted, online suspicion turned to 323 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:20,599 mister Chianny, in large part because of a podcast host 324 00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:22,000 who would claim to he was a. 325 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 2: Suspenct Pardon me while I roll my eyes. 326 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:28,599 Speaker 3: Yes, we all know who that is. And it was 327 00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:34,559 just a really ridiculously awful thing for her to say. Okay. 328 00:19:34,599 --> 00:19:39,400 It was then people zeroed in on mister Evans, noting 329 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,759 a conviction for drunk driving and the nineteen ninety nine 330 00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:45,119 bar incident, for which he served a year and a 331 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,039 half on probation. He graduated from the University of Arizona 332 00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:52,400 a few years later and has been teaching ever since. 333 00:19:54,599 --> 00:19:58,279 Speaker 2: So here's a guy with a couple of youthful indiscretions, 334 00:19:58,480 --> 00:19:59,119 I would. 335 00:19:58,839 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: Say, but questionable college behavior. 336 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, he's not the only person I've ever met 337 00:20:05,039 --> 00:20:09,880 who had a DUI, And I know there's this incident 338 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,920 where he supposedly stole something from someone in a bar, 339 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,720 and alcohol is definitely involved in both of those situations. 340 00:20:18,759 --> 00:20:23,559 So goes to lack of judgment. But he sounds like 341 00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:29,279 he's gotten his life together, went to the University of Arizona, 342 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,400 he's been teaching, He met and married his wife. They 343 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,079 have three kids. I think we have to give this 344 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,000 man some credit. Slacked. 345 00:20:40,319 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, honestly, the only thing that I would criticize him 346 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,039 for is going to U of A because I went 347 00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:45,680 to ASU. 348 00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute, now, I don't have a position here, 349 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,519 but I didn't realize that was a thing. 350 00:20:51,839 --> 00:20:54,279 Speaker 3: I'm just saying, go sun devils. That's all I'm saying. 351 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: Okay, all right. 352 00:20:55,279 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 3: But on February tenth, the David Investigators released foot it 353 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:03,240 from Ms Guthrie's doorbell camera. People began to speculate whether 354 00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:06,200 the man pictured wearing a mask and carrying a pistol 355 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,480 was mister Evans, posting side by side images of the 356 00:21:09,519 --> 00:21:13,200 two and analyzing their eyes, brows, and lashes. We did 357 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,640 have somebody post it on our Facebook page, and I 358 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,799 took it down because it's not appropriate. 359 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: No, And we don't do false accusations or just anything 360 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:27,119 that's way too out there and speculative, particularly if you're 361 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,000 going to start naming people as suspects when law enforcement 362 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:32,559 hasn't named them as suspects. 363 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is not our role. You can be a 364 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,599 true crime enthusiast, you can be a true crime advocate, 365 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,519 you can be a victim's advocate, you can be an investigator, 366 00:21:42,759 --> 00:21:44,920 but unless you are assigned to the case, it is 367 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,039 not your role to name suspects. It's not appropriate. 368 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,519 Speaker 2: No. I took a lot of interest in the video 369 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,960 clips of the and still photographs of the man outside 370 00:21:57,519 --> 00:22:00,160 the house, and there was a lot of discussion about 371 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,599 what he was wearing and his eyes, and the odd 372 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,240 way he had a gun in a holster in front 373 00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:10,559 of him, which normally I think most people with any 374 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,240 kind of training would wear the gun off to their side. 375 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:15,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. 376 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: I took a lot of interest in that stuff. But 377 00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:21,119 we certainly aren't going to turn around on Mind over 378 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,119 Murder or anywhere else and say, oh, and that's the 379 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,880 brother in law or whomever. I just it's not fair 380 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:28,480 to anyone. 381 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,319 Speaker 3: No, it's not. Mister Evans and his wife arrived home 382 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,319 later that day, I noticed more cars than usual at 383 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:39,799 a nearby park. Within minutes of walking inside, many of 384 00:22:39,839 --> 00:22:43,640 those cars pulled up to their street. Mister Evans remembers 385 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,960 seeing young people sitting in the back of the truck 386 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,160 as if their home was a macab attraction. The couple 387 00:22:50,279 --> 00:22:53,079 told their oldest son, a teenager, and not to come home, 388 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:55,880 and they felt they could not retrieve their youngest sons 389 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,079 from their grandmother's house because some of the cars remained 390 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,480 on their street till the early morning. It was all 391 00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:04,880 night looking through the window, trying not to let any 392 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,000 light out of our home, said Miss Evans, thirty nine, 393 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,279 a principal in a neighboring school district. She said she'd 394 00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:15,799 been scared numb by it all. Days later, on Friday 395 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:19,000 the thirteenth, mister Evans asked his school's principal to hold 396 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,759 a brief staff meeting, where mister Evans addressed the speculation 397 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,519 with other teachers and said he would be taking a 398 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:29,240 few days off that week. He also met with investigators 399 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,359 from the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Department, who 400 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,799 he had said had asked about his band, his friendship 401 00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:38,359 with mister Channey and his whereabouts on the night Miss 402 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,599 Guthrie was taken at home of his family, he told them. 403 00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:46,359 But at about five pm on February thirteenth, several journalists 404 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,279 and live streamers reported that a swat vehicle had left 405 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:52,759 the Sheriff's department headquarters. That sent a flood of people 406 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:56,839 back to the couple's neighborhood, anticipating that mister Evans might 407 00:23:56,839 --> 00:24:00,160 be the target. Their address was posted online. 408 00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:03,599 Speaker 2: Now we're really crossing the line here. This is a 409 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:10,000 family of five, three heads, mom, dad, and there's an 410 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,880 expectation of privacy here. And the idea that people are 411 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,920 going to be posting their address online. There are a 412 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,279 lot of crazy people out there, and something terrible could 413 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,720 happen as a result of this. And the idea that okay, 414 00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:32,240 a swat vehicle has left the Sheriff's department suddenly means 415 00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:36,440 they're going to the Evans home to arrest them or something. 416 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,920 This it doesn't track unacceptable. 417 00:24:40,759 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 3: We do not dox people online. We don't do it. 418 00:24:45,079 --> 00:24:50,079 Not for this ought to be You and Renee Williams 419 00:24:50,079 --> 00:24:52,400 at the National Center for Victims of Crime have talked 420 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,920 often at Crime con about having a sense of ethics 421 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,599 in true crime reportings, and this really ought to be 422 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,119 the one thing that everybody can get behind. You don't 423 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:08,160 dox people online. You don't post their information, their address, 424 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,640 their anything. It's not appropriate, it isn't fair because once 425 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,839 that information is out there, there's no taking it back. 426 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,079 The Internet is forever. We always tell this to our students. 427 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,720 The Internet is forever, you guys. It is forever. You 428 00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:25,279 are never going to be able to get away from 429 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:27,359 something that is posted online. 430 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 2: And even these youthful indiscretions that mister Evans was involved 431 00:25:31,519 --> 00:25:36,720 in years before the dui, the theft, the bar. He's 432 00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:41,200 clearly gotten his life together and is a responsible citizen, 433 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,839 and yet they were still able to find that information 434 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,000 online and the next thing they're falsely accusing him of 435 00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:49,920 being kidnapper. 436 00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, this one felt really scary because it was like 437 00:25:54,519 --> 00:25:57,880 everyone was waiting for someone to come to our house. 438 00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:58,319 Speaker 2: Ms. 439 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 3: Evans said. Mister evans first thought was that he had 440 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,039 been swatted by someone wishing him harm. They told their 441 00:26:05,079 --> 00:26:07,079 six year old to stay away from the window and 442 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,240 to keep quiet. As it turned out, the police operation 443 00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:14,880 was actually targeting a home thirty minutes away where investigators 444 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,720 questioned and released someone. As of Tuesday, and as of 445 00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:23,160 right now, because this story is a weekled, the abduction 446 00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:26,839 of miss Guthrie remained a mystery. Savannah Guthrie, the youngest 447 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,720 of missus Guthrie's three children, offered a one million dollar 448 00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:33,480 reward for information that leads investigators to her mother, saying 449 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:35,480 that the family knows she may be dead but is 450 00:26:35,519 --> 00:26:39,680 holding out hope. In recent days, the accusatory onslaught against 451 00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:41,960 mister Evans has eased and he's been able to go 452 00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:45,119 back to teaching. He said he'd gotten support from colleagues 453 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,400 and the parents of his fifth graders, who he had 454 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:52,480 feared might believe speculation posted online. And boy, that is 455 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,920 a risk that does come with teaching eight. 456 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,079 Speaker 2: It does without question. 457 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 3: You want your kids to look up to you, You 458 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,519 want your kids to like you. Neither of them are 459 00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:04,839 always possible, but hey, we can hope for it. And 460 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,559 you know that this generation of kids, the Gen zs 461 00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:10,720 and the Gen Alphas, they take in all of their 462 00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:15,079 content online, all of it. And it's got to be 463 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,160 very upsetting knowing that your students are going to hear 464 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,759 everything about you online and you have no repercussions for it. 465 00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:28,440 You have no repercussions, but the lasting effects are clear. 466 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,000 The other day, mister Evans worried that a man was 467 00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:34,759 following him out a department store. Ms Evans can't help 468 00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:37,839 pulling out her phone and searching her husband's name. She 469 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,119 wants to know in advance if people might mob their neighborhood. 470 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: Wow. 471 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 3: None of this right, so upsetting. None of this is real, 472 00:27:46,519 --> 00:27:49,240 but there is so much of it. Miss Evans said 473 00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:52,480 of the speculation. How can anyone decipher or catch all 474 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:52,759 of it? 475 00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 2: This is unbelievable. I feel so bad, of course, for 476 00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:01,359 the Guthrie family, But then these people are like collateral 477 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,960 damage somehow. Yeah, because people are nuts and can't seem 478 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,960 to control themselves in terms of I know who it is, 479 00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:13,160 stick your finger up in the air, like you're so 480 00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:17,319 much smarter than everybody else. It's one thing to say, 481 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,000 I'm going to take this tip to law enforcement and 482 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,200 ask the FBI and the Sheriff's department if they want 483 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,920 to check this out, But they'd already done that. Yeah, 484 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,400 And this concept of swatting, this actually gets extremely dangerous 485 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,440 if people are not familiar with swatting. This is when 486 00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:47,039 people will call law enforcement and claim that something terrible 487 00:28:47,079 --> 00:28:52,559 has happened at a particular person's address. For example, I 488 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,680 believe that so and so killed their wife and we 489 00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:00,480 heard gunfire at their home. Now law enforcement has an 490 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,319 obligation legally and morally to check that out. So the 491 00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:08,119 next thing you know, they're showing up, and it might 492 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,039 be the swat team, which is where the expression swatting 493 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:16,839 comes from. But imagine how dangerous this is. You're telling 494 00:29:17,359 --> 00:29:22,519 law enforcement falsely that something terrible has happened at a 495 00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:26,680 particular location. There's all kinds of stuff that's less harmful. 496 00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:29,079 I guess it's a waste of time and money to 497 00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:33,799 order pizza for someone and send it to their home 498 00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:37,680 when they didn't order pizza. And of course there's actually 499 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,480 a message there, which is we know where you live. 500 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,480 Is the implication if we sent Domino's to your house 501 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,920 for a pizza order you did in place, but then 502 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,920 to have a swat team arrive, and this is a 503 00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:56,279 waste of time and resources exactly law enforcement's time, and 504 00:29:56,839 --> 00:30:01,000 swat teams go in loaded for bear. They are prepared 505 00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:08,160 to engage with citizens and people end up dead. Yeah, 506 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,839 this is crazy that someone would do this, and it 507 00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:15,400 crossed mister Evans's mind. He said in the article that 508 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:22,160 someone who meant him harm might actually have swatted them. Yeah, 509 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,680 the height of irresponsibility. And quite frankly, I think people 510 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,440 that are swatting others they belong in jail. 511 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:34,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I agree. There's this sort of it feels 512 00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:38,799 almost like a mob mentality that happens when we learn 513 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,720 as a populace, Hey, there is a crime that's been committed, 514 00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:47,119 it is yet unsolved. The people within the true crime space, 515 00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:50,839 most of whom really are, seem to be decent people. 516 00:30:51,039 --> 00:30:52,920 We know because we meet a lot of them at 517 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:58,319 crime con But there's this weird sort of collective mob mentality, 518 00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:02,119 almost a frenzy that comes around when there is a 519 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,000 juicy true crime case and people are just waiting to 520 00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:10,920 solve it. You start getting the influencers and the live 521 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:16,000 streamers driving there, flying there, making sure that they're available 522 00:31:16,079 --> 00:31:19,279 should anything start to happen, and they can be right 523 00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:23,480 there on the scene. You've got people who download images 524 00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:26,759 and advance it frame by frame and look for everything. 525 00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:31,319 And it's bloodthirsty in a lot of ways, and it's 526 00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:37,920 upsetting because the vast number of people in the true 527 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:44,319 crime space are not trained forensic investigators, profilers, or anything else. 528 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,720 We are people who are interested in true crime, but 529 00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:49,880 those vast majority of people who are not trained seem 530 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,759 to be the ones who think they can solve the case. 531 00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:57,319 Speaker 2: The whole thing is incredibly disturbing, and I don't know 532 00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:01,200 what's going to happen with the Guthrie case. I see 533 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,160 myself as an optimistic person, but it's hard to think 534 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,000 that there's going to be a happy ending here to 535 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,799 Nancy Guthrie's case, given the fact that she's been gone 536 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,960 for over a month. And the Guthrie family made a 537 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,400 decision to greatly increase the reward offered to a million dollars, 538 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,400 which is a lot of money other than bringing the 539 00:32:24,519 --> 00:32:28,440 crazies out, I'm not sure if a million dollars would 540 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,559 have made a difference. Years ago, we the Colonial Parkway 541 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:39,799 murders families actually offered to increase the reward in our case, 542 00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:43,200 which I think was standing at twenty thousand dollars for 543 00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:46,839 many years. It was ten, then it was twenty, and 544 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,400 we were advised by the FBI not to go down 545 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,839 that road because they said it'll just bring out crazy 546 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:58,200 people and it won't necessarily generate more or better tips. 547 00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:02,400 I think from what we've read about the Guthrie case, 548 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,880 they've received tens of thousands of tips. Obviously it's going 549 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,440 to take the FBI and the Pema County Sheriff's Department 550 00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:15,799 a long time to run down all of those tips. 551 00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:21,119 But I think baseless speculation like this is getting us nowhere. 552 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,079 And as someone who's interested in true crime, and you 553 00:33:24,119 --> 00:33:28,039 and I are both people that do take a lot 554 00:33:28,079 --> 00:33:31,480 of interest, not just in the Colonial Parkway murders, but 555 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:36,200 in many other cases as well, it actually makes me 556 00:33:36,519 --> 00:33:41,559 cringe because I feel like it makes true crime fans 557 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:50,400 and even true crime content creators like ourselves look unseerious 558 00:33:50,799 --> 00:33:53,000 and even cool. 559 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 3: And yeah, I agree with you, unserious, unseemly certainly we 560 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:04,720 cruel in a lot of ways. And it's I can't 561 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,960 get past this image that you actually used it when 562 00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:14,199 we were talking about your day after you came back 563 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,800 from your meeting with the FBI, and you said you 564 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,880 felt after talking to a bunch of people who were 565 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,960 all reaching out to you for interviews, you said you 566 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,119 felt like a nice juicy bone that was being fought 567 00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:33,000 over by a pack of ravening dogs. That feels like this, 568 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,760 That is what it feels. The newest, hottest case comes 569 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:43,400 along and suddenly everybody is salivating to get the lead, 570 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:48,440 the scoop, whatever, and it leads people down really dark paths, 571 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,679 and I feel bad for the people that become collateral 572 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:57,400 damage in addition to the people who are actually victims. 573 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. It's we'll keep you posted on 574 00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:04,519 this story. Not so much with the focus on the 575 00:35:04,519 --> 00:35:08,880 Guthrie abduction, which we are still hoping will have a 576 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,760 positive outcome and that Nancy Guthrie will be found. But 577 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,400 I think just throwing out baseless accusations and scaring the 578 00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:25,239 crap out of this family from Tucson that are very 579 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,360 much only peripherally connected to this case, I think it's 580 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,440 the height of air responsibility and it just makes me cringe. 581 00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 3: I think to circle back to what we feel are 582 00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:40,599 the most responsible things that you can do with a 583 00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:44,719 true crime case. As a true crime creator and content consumer, 584 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:51,320 remember that we need to be ethical about the way 585 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,800 that we report and the way that we consume, and 586 00:35:56,119 --> 00:36:03,920 offering baseless accusations is inappropriate and irresponsible. Swatting people and 587 00:36:04,079 --> 00:36:12,159 offering personal and private information online is irresponsible and just 588 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:18,119 failing to have a sense of kindness and in human 589 00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:24,079 dignity toward other people who are also suffering. That shouldn't 590 00:36:24,119 --> 00:36:28,639 be who we are as a community of content creators 591 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:32,760 and consumers. We need to be better than what has 592 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,599 been shown so far in the Guthrie case. So I 593 00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:40,800 would urge people it is fine to be interested in 594 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,199 a case. It is fine to keep up watching the 595 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:50,440 news on it. But if you're thinking about posting photos 596 00:36:51,159 --> 00:36:54,679 naming people by name, even though law enforcement has not 597 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,239 said for them to be as such, think twice before 598 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,800 what you post is up on somebody else's dashboard. Everybody 599 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,639 has to do their part to keep this safe and 600 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,599 respectable space. And if we want to be taken seriously 601 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,719 as true crime and content creators, we have to do 602 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,000 the right things. We have to be ethical, we have 603 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,199 to have a sense of justice and fair play. Fill 604 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,440 any final thoughts from you, no, very well said. That 605 00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:26,920 is gonna do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 606 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,239 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 607 00:37:41,039 --> 00:37:44,599 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 608 00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:46,079 Another Dog Productions. 609 00:37:46,639 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas, and Kristin Dilley. 610 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 611 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 612 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 613 00:38:00,679 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 614 00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:06,639 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 615 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,519 Murders on Facebook. 616 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 617 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:12,960 Bill Thomas. Five six. 618 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,559 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.