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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week,
Speaker 7: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your host
Speaker 7: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening, the definitive account
Speaker 7: of Bill Cosby's transition from revered father figure to convicted criminal.
Speaker 7: Bill Cosby's decades long career as a sweater wearing, wholesome
Speaker 7: TV dad came to a swift and stunning end on
Speaker 7: April twenty sixth, twenty eighteen, when he was convicted of
Speaker 7: drugging and sexually assaulting Andrea Constant. The mounting allegations against
Speaker 7: Bill Cosby, more than sixty women have come forward to
Speaker 7: accuse him of similar crimes, and his ultimate conviction were
Speaker 7: a shock to Americans who wanted to cleave to their
Speaker 7: image of Cosby as a pudding pop hero. Award winning
Speaker 7: journalist and former People Magazine senior writer Nikki Wizency Egan
Speaker 7: was the first reporter to dig into the story when
Speaker 7: Constant went to police in two thousand and five. Other
Speaker 7: news organizations looked away, but Egan doggedly investigated the case,
Speaker 7: developing ties with entrench sources and discovering incriminating details that
Speaker 7: would ultimately come to influence the prosecution. In her debut book,
Speaker 7: Chasing Cosby, Egan shares her first time account of Cosby's
Speaker 7: thirteen year run from justice. She tells us that's how
Speaker 7: Cosby planned and executed his crimes, and how Hollywood alliances
Speaker 7: and law enforcement knew what Cosby was doing but did
Speaker 7: nothing to stop him. A veteran crime reporter, Egan also
Speaker 7: explores the cultural and social issues that influence the case,
Speaker 7: delving into the psychological calculations of a serial predator and
Speaker 7: into the psyche of a nation that fervently wanted to
Speaker 7: put their faith in the innocence of America's Dad.
Speaker 8: Rich in character and rife with dramatic revelations about popular
Speaker 8: culture media power in our criminal system, Egan's account will
Speaker 8: inform and fascinate readers with its candid telling of humanity's
Speaker 8: most enduring tale, the rise and fall of a cultural icon.
Speaker 8: The book they were featuring this evening is Chasing Cosby,
Speaker 8: the Downfall of America's Dad, with my special guest journalist
Speaker 8: and author Nicole Wise and see Egan. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 8: and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview
Speaker 8: Nicole Wise and c.
Speaker 3: Egan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much. Incredible timely story and even though
Speaker 8: this story is not about murder, the audience will certainly
Speaker 8: certainly appreciate this. Let's talk about as you write in
Speaker 8: the book January thirteen, two thousand and five, tell us
Speaker 8: about Andrea Constant and how you open the book about
Speaker 8: her experience with Bill Cosby. Tell us about January thirteen,
Speaker 8: two thousand and five. In that story.
Speaker 3: Sure, that morning she woke up from yet another nightmare
Speaker 3: and she was sobbing. It was a nightmare where she
Speaker 3: dreamed that she was seeing a woman getting sexually assaulted
Speaker 3: because she hadn't come forward about what had happened to her.
Speaker 3: She had been having it over the last year and
Speaker 3: had woken up screaming sometimes from her sleep. Her parents
Speaker 3: could hear her from their bedroom. So this morning when
Speaker 3: it happened, she just woke up and she called her mom.
Speaker 3: Her mom was on her way to work and she
Speaker 3: called her and she blurted out, I have PTSD, Mom,
Speaker 3: I think I have PTSD. And then Bill Cosby drugged
Speaker 3: and raped me. And it was just a shock, like
Speaker 3: her mother knew something was wrong with her daughter. She
Speaker 3: had come home, she had quit her job in Philadelphia
Speaker 3: and come home to enroll a massage school to be
Speaker 3: in Messuth like her father. But she wasn't herself when
Speaker 3: she came home that previous April.
Speaker 9: She was withdrawn, she lost.
Speaker 3: Weight, she didn't want to spend time with her family.
Speaker 3: She seemed depressed, and she was having these nightmares. So
Speaker 3: her mother, you know, later that day, when her mother
Speaker 3: got home from work, they called police and reported the crime,
Speaker 3: and that set off this whole tidal wave of events
Speaker 3: that led to ultimately his conviction.
Speaker 8: You talk about them calling the family, calling police, but
Speaker 8: they were living in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and they called
Speaker 8: them to Durham Reachild Police department at that time. Tell
Speaker 8: us what else she did other than call the police.
Speaker 8: Who else did she also call?
Speaker 9: Well?
Speaker 3: She because yeah, she was Canadian. She wasn't familiar with
Speaker 3: how the criminal justice system worked in the US and
Speaker 3: her her brother in law is a cop in Canada,
Speaker 3: and that he had told her you should look around
Speaker 3: for a lawyer to represent you. She didn't know if
Speaker 3: she would need a lawyer to actually file charges. I mean,
Speaker 3: she just really didn't know how the system worked, so
Speaker 3: she started calling around in the meantime to get recommendations
Speaker 3: for lawyers in the Philadelphia area and then but didn't
Speaker 3: actually speak to them anyone before they called the police.
Speaker 3: And then her mother also was so worried about when
Speaker 3: she found out that her daughter had been drugged. She
Speaker 3: wanted to know what Bill Cosby had given her daughter
Speaker 3: because of the way her daughter's behavior had changed, she
Speaker 3: was worried that there was some lasting impact that was
Speaker 3: part of the reason that her daughter had been herself.
Speaker 3: So she asked Andrea for the phone number to call him.
Speaker 3: And Andrea had an for his answer and service. It's
Speaker 3: the one she always used, and her mother know she
Speaker 3: was scared, like they were both scared in a way
Speaker 3: because they were scared they were book. Cosby's one of
Speaker 3: the most powerful people in this country in the entertainment world,
Speaker 3: and they were both nervous and scared about confronting them.
Speaker 3: But Andrea's mothers was overcome by her fear for her daughter.
Speaker 3: She had to know what he had given her daughter,
Speaker 3: so she called That was a Thursday, but Cosby didn't
Speaker 3: end up calling her back until Sunday. That Sunday, and
Speaker 3: in the meantime, they went to police, but because it
Speaker 3: happened outside the Philadelphia area and not in Toronto, the
Speaker 3: Durham police referred to Philly erroneously at first, and then
Speaker 3: a few days later it went to the correct police
Speaker 3: in Cheltenham Township, Pennsylvania, which is just outside Philly, which
Speaker 3: is where Cosby owns a home.
Speaker 8: Now you talk about a police source tipped off Harvey Hairston,
Speaker 8: an investigative reporter for Philadelphia's Channel ten, the NBC affiliate,
Speaker 8: and the allegations you right broke in Channel tens five
Speaker 8: PM newscast on January twentieth, two thousand and five. Tell
Speaker 8: us what you learned and how you learned that information,
Speaker 8: and what was your capacity? Where were you working at
Speaker 8: that time and what capacity.
Speaker 9: Sure?
Speaker 3: I was working at the Philadelphia Daily News at the time.
Speaker 3: I was a crime investigative writer, and I had spent
Speaker 3: the last two years digging into sexual misconduct among the
Speaker 3: Pennsylvania State Police. I always did investigative stories while also
Speaker 3: working the crime beat, so that's why it was assigned
Speaker 3: to me. My boss had always said, if you want
Speaker 3: to get ahead on a story, give it to VICKI.
Speaker 3: So they gave it to me, and it was a
Speaker 3: shock because I was a fan of Cosby. I grew
Speaker 3: up watching Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids on Saturday
Speaker 3: mornings with my brother. I loved the Cosby Show. I
Speaker 3: truly thought Bill Cosby was Cliff Huxtable. So my initial
Speaker 3: reaction was not the cause I just you know, it
Speaker 3: wasn't something I wanted to believe either, but I had
Speaker 3: to put my personal feelings aside just look into this
Speaker 3: and see what this was all about. And of course,
Speaker 3: the biggest question, because we knew who Cosby was or
Speaker 3: who we thought he was, was who was this woman
Speaker 3: Because her name wasn't being released. All I knew was
Speaker 3: she had worked at Temple University, and Cosby was on
Speaker 3: the board of trustees there as well, and had not
Speaker 3: graduated but been given an honorary degree. So I had
Speaker 3: some sources at Temple who ended up telling me who
Speaker 3: she was, though we didn't use her name until we
Speaker 3: had permission to use it a month or so later,
Speaker 3: and her reputation was fantastic there. She was director of
Speaker 3: operations for the women's basketball team. Don Staley had recruited
Speaker 3: her for that job. She was the coach and Don
Speaker 3: Staley was also very close with Cosby. She was one
Speaker 3: of the top five and then I did a clip
Speaker 3: search on her name to see what else I could
Speaker 3: find out about her, and she was one of the
Speaker 3: top five basketball women's basketball players in Canada. She was
Speaker 3: recruited by fifty to sixty colleges in the United States
Speaker 3: to play for them because she was so good, and
Speaker 3: she eventually chose the University of Arizona. She dreamed of
Speaker 3: playing for the WNBA one day, and after college, she
Speaker 3: went and played in Europe for a while, and then
Speaker 3: she finally came back to Canada and she started realizing
Speaker 3: her dreams of playing in the WNBA weren't going to happen.
Speaker 3: I mean, she used her own money to go to
Speaker 3: tryouts in various cities as well. So that's when Don
Speaker 3: Staley came to her and recruited her for this position
Speaker 3: at Temple, and it was a way for her to
Speaker 3: still be in the basketball world. So that's why she
Speaker 3: took that job, and that's how she met Cosby. About
Speaker 3: a year into the job, he was at a Temple
Speaker 3: women's basketball game. He was a big supporter of the team.
Speaker 3: He used to make commercials for comcast about the team,
Speaker 3: and he would show up at games and a donor
Speaker 3: who was at the game introduced Cosby to Andrea and
Speaker 3: what was And then the next day or a couple
Speaker 3: days later, he started calling her about temple business. But
Speaker 3: he was the one who pursued this what she viewed
Speaker 3: as a mentorship, although he would later say in his
Speaker 3: deposition in her case that he had his eye on
Speaker 3: her romantically from day one. From the moment he better,
Speaker 3: she thought he was just of grandfather figure. I mean,
Speaker 3: he was just her mentor. He was like ten years
Speaker 3: older than her own father. And so you know, he's
Speaker 3: calling her, asking her questions about the team. They become friendly,
Speaker 3: and you know, he pursued this relationship that was not
Speaker 3: her and she certainly wasn't in a position to say
Speaker 3: no because he was, you know, on the board of
Speaker 3: trustees at her employer. He was close with her boss,
Speaker 3: and she really, you know, had no problem with that.
Speaker 3: So that's what happened, and that's what was their relationship
Speaker 3: for the next fourteen months.
Speaker 8: You right. That's interesting too that what you find out
Speaker 8: later is interesting in this mix that actually Andrea is
Speaker 8: gay and not heterosexual.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was working on a profile of her to
Speaker 3: run when I worked on it in between you know,
Speaker 3: the stories that were breaking on this, because in the
Speaker 3: midst of this, I got an exclusive with a second
Speaker 3: accuser who came forward, Tomar Green. So yes, as I
Speaker 3: was interviewing former teammates and so forth, I discovered that
Speaker 3: they said you know that, don't you? And I said, no,
Speaker 3: actually I didn't. So I called one of her attorneys
Speaker 3: and I said, what do you you know?
Speaker 9: Is this true?
Speaker 3: And you know off the record there and I can
Speaker 3: say this now because she has since had.
Speaker 9: It made public.
Speaker 3: But they said yes. They said, well, why don't you
Speaker 3: want it to know? Because by that point, someone from
Speaker 3: Cosby's team had leaked or someone in the prosecution had
Speaker 3: leaked to a local to ABC News that Cosby what
Speaker 3: had said that the relationship was consensual, that the account
Speaker 3: she gave of that night and the account he gave
Speaker 3: up that night about the night this happened were completely
Speaker 3: matched up, except that she said it was he said
Speaker 3: it was consensual, and she said it wasn't. And so
Speaker 3: I said to her, you know, if people know this,
Speaker 3: then they could say, you know, how can this be consensual?
Speaker 3: Because I was kind of amazed at the backlash as
Speaker 3: soon as I started reporting on this story from from
Speaker 3: the other media, from against me, against her, like nobody
Speaker 3: wanted to hear this. And Andrew's attorney said, there's no
Speaker 3: point in doing that because cosby people will just find
Speaker 3: some guy she dated in high school to say she's
Speaker 3: not really gay, and.
Speaker 9: She was exactly right.
Speaker 3: Those were exactly the type of tactics they were using,
Speaker 3: except it was worse. They were actually making up lies
Speaker 3: about her and leaking it to the media, and the
Speaker 3: media was running with it. So I totally understood. And
Speaker 3: it wasn't until a decade later after the case popped
Speaker 3: up again and there was a new court filing that
Speaker 3: Andrea's attorneys put in that they finally revealed that fact
Speaker 3: that she was gay, And at that point I was
Speaker 3: just still so surprised they did it, even though it
Speaker 3: was in a public court filing. Even though I knew
Speaker 3: that it was that they it was okay.
Speaker 9: To reveal it.
Speaker 3: Then if they put it in there, I still was
Speaker 3: called to the lawyer to make sure it was okay
Speaker 3: to say it, because you know, it had been so
Speaker 3: closely held, such a closely held secret for a decade
Speaker 3: and I just wanted to make sure it was okay
Speaker 3: for me to use it. I mean, that's just the
Speaker 3: way I approached sensitive subjects in my stories.
Speaker 8: Right now, Andrea hired Dolores Trumiani and bb kidits former
Speaker 8: prosecutor and law partners in Devin right outside of Philadelphia.
Speaker 8: What was their experience that they brought to this case.
Speaker 3: Oh, they were both seasoned prosecutors. They had been sex
Speaker 3: crimes prosecutors. Dolores had been a homicide prosecutor. She had
Speaker 3: prosecuted the most notorious band of criminals in this area,
Speaker 3: the Johnston Brothers that became the subject of the Sean
Speaker 3: Penn movie At Close Range. I mean, they're both very fearless,
Speaker 3: tough prosecutors, and they just were not afraid to take
Speaker 3: this case from the beginning. I mean, they just believed
Speaker 3: Andrea as soon as she came to them, and they
Speaker 3: had no problem. In fact that Lauris has said that
Speaker 3: she's always felt that she could have gotten a conviction
Speaker 3: on this case, even in two thousand and five, with
Speaker 3: the evidence that was there.
Speaker 8: You talk about the Associated Press's first story initial media response.
Speaker 8: Tell us what you read and your reaction to the coverage.
Speaker 8: Or take on it.
Speaker 3: I mean, sure, you know, I had kept all of
Speaker 3: my notes and everything from two thousand and five, even
Speaker 3: after this Andrea started her lawsuit, because I packed it
Speaker 3: up in a box and a waterproof box and put
Speaker 3: it in my basement in case this bubbled up again,
Speaker 3: in case, you know, some new accuser came forward. So
Speaker 3: I was looking through all of those old stories and
Speaker 3: I knew, I knew the other media the coverage had
Speaker 3: been bad, but and you know, very anti Andrea. But
Speaker 3: I hadn't realized how bad until I started doing the
Speaker 3: research for this book last summer. So yeah, I found
Speaker 3: that the first story the AP did lead led with,
Speaker 3: you know, Cosby's lawyer calling these charges bizarre and preposterous.
Speaker 3: And the lead on my first story that I wrote
Speaker 3: about the scandal breaking was just that, you know, very
Speaker 3: very neutral. You know, he Bill Cosby has been accused
Speaker 3: of you know, drugging and sexually assaulting a former Temple
Speaker 3: employee at his Cheltenham mansion. Police say, you know, it
Speaker 3: was very you know, down the middle. And then of
Speaker 3: course I had his lawyer's response in there, but they
Speaker 3: basically led with Cosby, you know, just saying that this
Speaker 3: is bizarre and preposterous. And you know, their favoritism toward
Speaker 3: him continued well up into when this scandal rebroke in
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen, because they there was an there was an
Speaker 3: interview where they had interviewed him and asked him questions
Speaker 3: about this, and they didn't release the video of and
Speaker 3: he was trying to get them to not release it,
Speaker 3: and they held onto it for two weeks and he
Speaker 3: was like Calso and so in la and talked to them,
Speaker 3: and then they finally released a video two weeks later. Now,
Speaker 3: subsequent to that, they also went to court to try
Speaker 3: to get the deposition unsealed. And they have certainly painted
Speaker 3: themselves as the savior in this case, and they did.
Speaker 3: You know, getting these documents partially unsealed was key, but
Speaker 3: they were a long time coming to that point of view.
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Speaker 8: You write about Bruce Lcaster, Junior at the Montgomery County
Speaker 8: District's Attorney and his prosecution of this or tell us
Speaker 8: about Bruce Caster and the press release that he issues
Speaker 8: and what he has to say.
Speaker 3: Sure, you know, I it's another thing I was surprised
Speaker 3: about because I'd done Bruce Caster for years there. He
Speaker 3: loved to hold press conferences at a drop.
Speaker 9: Of a hat.
Speaker 3: He loved high profile cases, he loved being on TV.
Speaker 3: And I thought, what a natural one for him to
Speaker 3: go him onto And he wasn't scared of tough cases.
Speaker 3: I mean, I had seen him get murder convictions where
Speaker 3: they didn't even have a murder weapon. In one case,
Speaker 3: all they had was the imprint of a weapon in
Speaker 3: a holster, and he was able to get a murder conviction.
Speaker 3: I had his office had prosecuted this a state trooper
Speaker 3: who was sexually assaulting teenagers and women for decades or
Speaker 3: for years in the Philadelphia suburbs, and all of them,
Speaker 3: you know, did not report to a police immediate they,
Speaker 3: like Andrea, it was delayed reporting. It's the norm in
Speaker 3: these cases. It's not normal. The norm is not for
Speaker 3: sexual sult victims to go to the police right away.
Speaker 3: In fact, the majority of them go to police. So
Speaker 3: I knew that he had handled cases like this, and
Speaker 3: he understood that. But from the get go, it just
Speaker 3: seemed to me that he wanted nothing to do with
Speaker 3: this case.
Speaker 9: He didn't.
Speaker 3: It was four days before he even issued a press
Speaker 3: release that he didn't have a press conference. And in
Speaker 3: that press release, which was just four short paragraphs and
Speaker 3: it was released to just the reporters who worked out
Speaker 3: of the courthouse in Northtown, Pennsylvania, where his office was,
Speaker 3: it wasn't released to all of the media. He released
Speaker 3: it to them first and then the rest of the
Speaker 3: media the next day, and it almost like sounded like
Speaker 3: he was saying he might charge Andrea with a crime.
Speaker 9: So it was really shocking.
Speaker 3: And then after they interviewed Cosby hed he did hold
Speaker 3: a press conference and the comments he made it made,
Speaker 3: you know, were very important because the way they were interpretated,
Speaker 3: interpreted by at least one woman, was that, you know,
Speaker 3: he had no intension of prosecuting this case. Calipn Your
Speaker 3: Turn of Tomorrow. Green heard excerpts of it in California
Speaker 3: and she listened to it and she's like, that's you know,
Speaker 3: I'm listening to what he's saying, and he's basically describing
Speaker 3: the case as weak, which which is day DA speak
Speaker 3: for I'm not going to be filing charges. So she
Speaker 3: decided to come forward with her own story the f
Speaker 3: Cosby trying to do the same thing to her or
Speaker 3: doing the same thing to her thirty years prior, because
Speaker 3: she said, I could tell they didn't believe this woman,
Speaker 3: and I realize having it done to me doesn't prove
Speaker 3: he did it to her, but they need to know that,
Speaker 3: you know, the other he has done this to other women.
Speaker 8: Tell us more as you write in the book about
Speaker 8: Tomorrow Green and why she is just the perfect person
Speaker 8: to come forward second and have her story public.
Speaker 3: Sure she she immediately, you know, she contacted me, and
Speaker 3: she had contact law enforcement to tell her story and
Speaker 3: Andrea's attorneys, and then she reached out to me to
Speaker 3: give me the first interview. And she wanted her name
Speaker 3: to be used. She wanted her face to be used.
Speaker 3: She because she said, no, one's going to believe me
Speaker 3: if I'm an anonymous source. And She's like, I'm a wife,
Speaker 3: I'm a mother, I'm a lawyer, you know I so hopefully,
Speaker 3: you know, people will believe me because I'm basically respectable person.
Speaker 3: And so she told me her story and I confirmed
Speaker 3: it with that she had told people other people shortly
Speaker 3: after it happened. I spoke with them, and she told me,
Speaker 3: you know, some other things that had happened to her,
Speaker 3: like she'd had a duy and all that, but it
Speaker 3: wasn't relevant to what we were talking about for the story,
Speaker 3: so it wasn't in there. And I went to cause
Speaker 3: these people for reaction, and they, of course, as I
Speaker 3: later found out, works and their attorneys were sending letters
Speaker 3: threatening to sue us, but my paper refused to back down,
Speaker 3: as did I, and so she did it and it
Speaker 3: was just kind of exploded. And two days later that well,
Speaker 3: that morning when it ran out, my phone was written.
Speaker 3: By the time I came in, it was Today's show
Speaker 3: producer trying to reach her to see if they could
Speaker 3: get her on, and I reached out to tomorrow later
Speaker 3: and she said it was fine to give them her information.
Speaker 3: And she went on and was interviewed by Matt Lower,
Speaker 3: which is really interesting considering what happened so many years later, right,
Speaker 3: And it was an awful interview. I mean, he couldn't
Speaker 3: hide his skepticism, he couldn't hide his arrogance. You know,
Speaker 3: it was it was very clear, you know, he just
Speaker 3: it was like a very pro Cosby interview. And you
Speaker 3: know I experienced the same thing when I went on
Speaker 3: Dan Abrams Show and MSNBC that night. It was very
Speaker 3: clear how skeptical he was of me. I mean, I
Speaker 3: just I was really shocked by the way the media
Speaker 3: reacted to this story. So, yes, if you put her
Speaker 3: on the show, But then the coverage quickly died down
Speaker 3: because Cosby's people were able to control the media, and
Speaker 3: ap again waited a day and a half to do
Speaker 3: a story on tomorrow and then led with this some
Speaker 3: of the dirt Cosby's people had dug up on her
Speaker 3: in their story.
Speaker 8: Tell us who tell our audience who Marty Singer is
Speaker 8: and the kinds of things that he was saying to you.
Speaker 3: Sure Marty Singer was? Is this celebrity attorney he's He's
Speaker 3: represented some of the most you know, powerful celebrities in
Speaker 3: Hollywood usually when they end up in trouble whatever, they
Speaker 3: go to him and what he tries to do. Although
Speaker 3: I did not know this at the time, he didn't
Speaker 3: later did an interview with The New York Times where
Speaker 3: he said, basically, his strategy is to kill stories before
Speaker 3: they ever run. He doesn't have to sue and doesn't
Speaker 3: like to sue because defamation cases are hard to win
Speaker 3: and you don't win a lot of money.
Speaker 9: So what he does is he tries to.
Speaker 3: Make them never run, and he's very good at it.
Speaker 3: He does it by you know, threatening to sue basically.
Speaker 3: I mean, even my editor at the time said the
Speaker 3: letters that were sent to them were some of the
Speaker 3: most strongly worded he had ever seen, and if you
Speaker 3: google around, you'll see some of the other ones he
Speaker 3: sent because once this rebroken twenty fourteen, some of the
Speaker 3: news agencies just started printing them. And then the La
Speaker 3: Times did a story I think after that, where they
Speaker 3: printed excerpts of one he sent to them about another
Speaker 3: similar story they were working on. So it was I've
Speaker 3: never in my life experienced anything like it. It was
Speaker 3: it was. It was very intimidating. He was very intimidating,
Speaker 3: and there was.
Speaker 9: Just no like.
Speaker 3: I'd done a lot of tough stories. I've been covering
Speaker 3: cops in Philly, for God's sake, I'd been covering, you know,
Speaker 3: police corruption in the Pennsylvania State Police. I'd been threatened before.
Speaker 3: I'd been you know, I'd had it happen all the time.
Speaker 3: I was at a press conference with the Pennsylvania State
Speaker 3: Police Commissioner and the governor and I asked the State
Speaker 3: Police commissioner a question and he almost lunged toward me,
Speaker 3: and the governor had to hold him back. So I'm
Speaker 3: you know, I can handle it, but this was like
Speaker 3: nothing I had ever experienced. And then on top of
Speaker 3: it all, I had the media piling on.
Speaker 9: Top of me.
Speaker 3: Too so, but it just you know, I trusted my
Speaker 3: reporting and I wasn't going to back down if they sued.
Speaker 9: They sued, but.
Speaker 3: They had no grounds for it. And little did I know,
Speaker 3: that's not even their strategy, you know, Like I said,
Speaker 3: I didn't find out till a few years later when
Speaker 3: I saw the New York Times story that his strategy
Speaker 3: is just to kill these stories, not to actually sue.
Speaker 8: You talked about also the threats or offers of future stories.
Speaker 8: Tell us a little bit about what you found out
Speaker 8: in how things work in the media that you were
Speaker 8: surprised about in terms of trading up or offers of
Speaker 8: future stories.
Speaker 3: Tell us about that. Yeah, this was my first interaction
Speaker 3: really with the national media, and I was being asked
Speaker 3: to be on a lot of TV shows like The
Speaker 3: Nightshaw was like greta ancestor and had her show then,
Speaker 3: and of course Dan Abrams and the bookers were telling
Speaker 3: me that they were getting a lot of fleck from
Speaker 3: Cosby's people for having me on these shows. And that's
Speaker 3: where I first learned the phrase trading up, where basically
Speaker 3: you back off of one story in order to get
Speaker 3: a better one. And in fact, soon I wasn't being
Speaker 3: asked to be on those shows anymore, and like ABC,
Speaker 3: which never covered the allegations at the time, except for
Speaker 3: the one story they did saying, you know, Cosby says
Speaker 3: this was consensual, which was.
Speaker 9: A pro Cosby story.
Speaker 3: Sure enough, a couple months later, you know, after castor
Speaker 3: the DA had decided not to charge Cosby, they got
Speaker 3: an exclusive interview with him and they were allowed access
Speaker 3: into one of his town halls. In these town halls
Speaker 3: he was holding across the country within inner cities and
Speaker 3: kind of lecturing black people about how to behave, and
Speaker 3: the media wasn't just allowed to go to it. You
Speaker 3: had to be invited into it. And in fact, when
Speaker 3: I first started covering the story, his spokesman told me, oh,
Speaker 3: we've got to get you into one of these town halls.
Speaker 3: Well that offer quickly went away after my stories, you know,
Speaker 3: became more aggressive. But yeah, so that's how I learned
Speaker 3: that phrase. And it was it was really disillusioning, to
Speaker 3: say the least. I mean, I'd never experienced that in
Speaker 3: local journalism. But I also worked for a newspaper that
Speaker 3: was just wasn't afraid of anybody, So that was that
Speaker 3: was a big plus. As you read and as far
Speaker 3: as trading up went, and then I found out I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: And then Beth Ferry or another accuser, had come forward
Speaker 3: to the National Inquirer and had told them her story,
Speaker 3: and they'd had her take a live detector task she passed,
Speaker 3: and then they took it to Cosby, and Cosby they
Speaker 3: agreed to kill that story in exchange for Cosby giving
Speaker 3: them an exclusive interview, which he did. So that is
Speaker 3: a very classic case of trading up, backing off of
Speaker 3: one story in order to get another better one.
Speaker 8: Incredible. You write that a steady stream of accusers gave
Speaker 8: statements to Andrea's attorneys, who then turned their infoover to detectives.
Speaker 8: You didn't know what each accuser had said. That knowledge
Speaker 8: came later, and you were receiving many tips and emails
Speaker 8: and letters, falling up on each as much as you could.
Speaker 8: And then suddenly, February seventeen, two thousand and five, what happened,
Speaker 8: four weeks after this case has been opened. What happens?
Speaker 3: It was a Thursday, five forty five pm. Get a
Speaker 3: press release, and it's from Bruce Gaster and it was
Speaker 3: you know, as he later testified about this, it was
Speaker 3: very unusual, not only for him to write his own
Speaker 3: press release, but for him not to even hold a
Speaker 3: press conference to announce his decision. But he anyway. In
Speaker 3: this press release, he announced he was not going to
Speaker 3: be filing charges against Cosby, and he listed why even
Speaker 3: though you know, I found out a decade later that
Speaker 3: his detectives were still in the middle of their investigation.
Speaker 3: When and they were in the Cheltenham Police Commission chief,
Speaker 3: none of them knew he was going to do this.
Speaker 3: They were working hand in hand with Castors detectives on
Speaker 3: this case, and even Caster's own detectives, like, none of
Speaker 3: them knew he was gonna just not decide not to prosecute.
Speaker 3: They were blindsided by it, and Andrea's attorneys were blindsided
Speaker 3: by it too, because they hadn't bothered to let them know.
Speaker 3: They found out when a local TV reporter shows up
Speaker 3: at their office shortly before six pm with it. And
Speaker 3: Castor later said that he had sent them the press release,
Speaker 3: but you know they're supposed to call, you know, you're
Speaker 3: not supposed to just do something like that. And it
Speaker 3: was very traumatic for Andrea because she was out with
Speaker 3: her sister and they couldn't reach her, and you know,
Speaker 3: the media had gathered outside her home. Again, they had
Speaker 3: been almost there were days where there's some days her
Speaker 3: parents couldn't even go to work because there was so
Speaker 3: much media outside their home. Because another thing that had
Speaker 3: happened that had violated the normal of this these sexual
Speaker 3: assault cases is her name had been leaked into the
Speaker 3: media and the media was using her name and image
Speaker 3: and that was not the norm. And that happened in
Speaker 3: a very carefully constructed way. So she had to sneak
Speaker 3: into her own home later that night after finding this out.
Speaker 3: So she was just and and you know, again there
Speaker 3: was like us in that press release, Caster wrote, there was,
Speaker 3: you know, a nasty statement about Andrea. There was much
Speaker 3: in here that that could be used to show both
Speaker 3: sides in a bad light. And it's like who does
Speaker 3: that too?
Speaker 9: You know?
Speaker 3: And get as I said, BB and Dolores are former
Speaker 3: sex crimes prosecutors, former prosecutors, they had never seen anything
Speaker 3: like it. They'd never seen a DA disparage a victim
Speaker 3: that way. And the ironic part is like, you know,
Speaker 3: Andrea did not have any skeletons in her closet. They
Speaker 3: you know, as I write about in the book, you Know.
Speaker 3: That's often the tactic that defense attorneys use and they
Speaker 3: is to disparage the victim. They find like some traffic
Speaker 3: tickets she got or something they did wrong, to show
Speaker 3: she's not credible, something that has nothing to do with
Speaker 3: the sexual assault case, and they use that against them
Speaker 3: and great shield laws that prevented them from doing that
Speaker 3: in court, so now they just take it to the media.
Speaker 3: And what they had leaked was that Andrea had had
Speaker 3: gone to police, had gone to Cosby and tried to
Speaker 3: get Andrew, and her mother gone to Cosby before they
Speaker 3: went to police and tried to get money out of him,
Speaker 3: which was not true. That there was a phone call
Speaker 3: that was that Andreid's mom recorded that they called a
Speaker 3: classic shakedown, which was the mom trying to get money
Speaker 3: out of Cosby. Not true. Turns out that phone call
Speaker 3: actually is him offering this educational trust and them not
Speaker 3: taking them up on it. But the media just ran
Speaker 3: with it. So the and Know caster kept calling this
Speaker 3: phone call in a legal wiretap, even though he'd had
Speaker 3: his first assistant DA researched the issue, and that phone
Speaker 3: call that that Andrew's mom recorded was legal, and in
Speaker 3: fact it was useless evidence. In both trials, So that's
Speaker 3: what he's talking about. Much that could be made. Oh
Speaker 3: and the fact that she made disposedly inconcier and statements,
Speaker 3: she had dates mixed up and so forth. But you know,
Speaker 3: she was drugged and her memory was foggy. And that
Speaker 3: is also that happens with sexual assault victims. Their memory
Speaker 3: sometimes comes back in pieces. It's not linear. You know,
Speaker 3: it's because of the trauma and because of the drugs.
Speaker 3: And so he made a lot about her inconsistent statements.
Speaker 3: She was always consistent about what she said happened that night.
Speaker 3: She was just fuzzy on some of the timing and
Speaker 3: the details because of being drugged and because of the trauma.
Speaker 8: You write about November eighth, two thousand and six, and
Speaker 8: the civil lawsuit tell us this is one of the
Speaker 8: most I guess, disturbing parts of this book. How did
Speaker 8: Cosby conduct himself at that deposition?
Speaker 9: It was bad.
Speaker 3: Miller's ended up later testifying on it. He was, you know,
Speaker 3: he was rude, he was he stormed out a couple
Speaker 3: of times. They had to have judge inter seed they
Speaker 3: I mean, that's why I ended up being done over
Speaker 3: four days, over a six month period. And the judge
Speaker 3: had to, you know, force them to answer certain questions
Speaker 3: Andrea when when she was being questioned.
Speaker 9: They were hostile to her.
Speaker 3: It was, it was And the contents of the deposition
Speaker 3: when you read it are just it's just creepy. I mean,
Speaker 3: I saw at the second trial when some of the
Speaker 3: excerpts were being read, there were two African American gentlemen
Speaker 3: who were alternate ors sitting where I could see them,
Speaker 3: and they're read They're watching the words being read on
Speaker 3: the screen and their look on their faces.
Speaker 9: Is like, what the hell like it.
Speaker 3: Is just it reads like soft porn. Some of it.
Speaker 3: It's his description of what he said happened with him
Speaker 3: and Andrea, and it is just disgusting, you know. So
Speaker 3: so yeah, yeah, his behavior, but he's he's a man
Speaker 3: who's used to getting his way. He had never his
Speaker 3: nothing had ever gotten this far with him. Because I
Speaker 3: think that he was able to resolve these cases, but
Speaker 3: with these like the edged location trust that he offered Andrea.
Speaker 3: There was another woman who came forward in two thousand
Speaker 3: in New York City and said he had tried something
Speaker 3: similar with her, and then the next thing, you know,
Speaker 3: she's never spoken and In the deposition he talks about
Speaker 3: that case. I put a lot of it in the
Speaker 3: book and this last conversation they had, and you know
Speaker 3: it was after that that you know didn't hear from it.
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Speaker 3: Eighteen plus from her again. So my guess is she
Speaker 3: got some kind of educational trust. But it was interesting
Speaker 3: to me too, is you know this drug things part
Speaker 3: of the pattern. And in the deposition, he says she
Speaker 3: asked him what did you give me? And that was
Speaker 3: eye opening to me because don't think anyone else caught that,
Speaker 3: because there had never been an allegation that he had
Speaker 3: drugged her as well that in the reports in the
Speaker 3: local papers when this happened.
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Speaker 8: play today now, Nicole, we were talking about what happens
Speaker 8: next after her civil lawsuit. You talked about the Jane
Speaker 8: does coming forward, and you spoke to Barbara Bowman and
Speaker 8: there was a staff reduction at Daily News, and so
Speaker 8: now you are working for People Magazine freelancing for them.
Speaker 8: Tell us what happens next and your conversation with Barbara
Speaker 8: Bowman and what you learn.
Speaker 9: Sure I had, actually, yeah, I had.
Speaker 3: People Magazine had come to me to freelance about the case.
Speaker 3: You know, because of my coverage of the Cosby case.
Speaker 3: They were actually pursuing one of the few print organizations
Speaker 3: that was actually pursuing it back then, although nothing ultimately ran.
Speaker 3: So I'd been freelancing for them, and yeah, I took
Speaker 3: a voluntary buiout at the Daily News to just freelance,
Speaker 3: and then I got put in staff at people, So yeah,
Speaker 3: we did. And then Andrea settled her lawsuits. So when
Speaker 3: that happened, I went to the editors and I was like,
Speaker 3: can we run that story?
Speaker 9: Now?
Speaker 3: We've been talking to the accusers for like a year
Speaker 3: and a half and you know, already had run yet,
Speaker 3: and so they were very afraid of being sued as well.
Speaker 3: So I didn't actually interview Barbara Bowman, but another one
Speaker 3: of our staffers did because we were broken up by
Speaker 3: geography then and Barbara lived in Arizona, so someone out
Speaker 3: in the Midwest interviewer. But anyway, Yeah, she talked about
Speaker 3: being a teenager and she was Jane Doe number seven,
Speaker 3: and she talked about being a teenager and Cosby dragging
Speaker 3: her and sexually assaulting her and so on. It was
Speaker 3: a horrifying story, and she she had only told her
Speaker 3: story at that point. The only other news organization was
Speaker 3: Philly mag I had interviewed another Jane Doe in two
Speaker 3: thousand and five, Beth Farrier. She was Jane Doe number
Speaker 3: five and she's the one who had given her, you know,
Speaker 3: interview to the National Choir that they that they they
Speaker 3: killed and didn't tell her in order to get Cosby's interview.
Speaker 3: So we included her and Beth and Tamara in the story.
Speaker 3: We did, and finally because they figured, you know, since
Speaker 3: the lawsuit was settled, as I said to them, if
Speaker 3: these women are brave enough to have their photo names,
Speaker 3: you shouldn't we be brave enough to publish their story.
Speaker 3: So we did run it, but they made a decision,
Speaker 3: you know, not to put it on the cover, or
Speaker 3: not to put it in the weekly press release that
Speaker 3: listed exclusives, and just just a very low key media strategy.
Speaker 3: And you know, people was always very secretive about this,
Speaker 3: so I don't know exactly what was going on, but
Speaker 3: I do get to sense. I'm sure they were getting
Speaker 3: the same type of threats to be ensued by Marty Singer.
Speaker 3: So there was no reaction once it ran, and you know, honestly,
Speaker 3: there wasn't anything new in it, like Barbara, like I said,
Speaker 3: Barbara Bowman had already told her story to Philly mag
Speaker 3: Beth Barryhood and Tamara Green had spoken to me in
Speaker 3: two thousand and five, but still it was out there,
Speaker 3: you know, and it was an a national publication, but
Speaker 3: there was nothing. There was no reaction whatsoever. And that's it,
Speaker 3: you know. I just thought, that's it, it's over.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and you put your notes away, you say, put
Speaker 8: them up, bundle them up and put them in the basement.
Speaker 9: Yep.
Speaker 3: I had all, you know, hundreds and maybe thousands of
Speaker 3: pages of court documents and notes and interviews, but I
Speaker 3: just couldn't throw them away. I just thought, you know,
Speaker 3: let me just keep these just in case there might
Speaker 3: be you know, this story's over, Andrea can't talk. That's over,
Speaker 3: but maybe some other women might come forward and someday,
Speaker 3: So yeah, I just put it all in my basement
Speaker 3: in a waterproof box, and kind of, you know, forgot
Speaker 3: about it for the next eight years.
Speaker 8: You fast forward to October twenty fourteen, and you describe
Speaker 8: Cosby in a career resurgence, a biography has been written
Speaker 8: where they don't mention the civil suit whatsoever. And then
Speaker 8: came Hannibal Buris, a comedian, not well known comedian, tell
Speaker 8: us how this happens and what he says and what
Speaker 8: this sets off? The firestorm it sets off?
Speaker 3: Yeah again it's, you know, researching the book last summer.
Speaker 3: I knew all that was happening at the time, but
Speaker 3: I really didn't realize how completely random it was for
Speaker 3: that Filly mag reporter to be at Hannibal Buris's show
Speaker 3: that night. His name is Dan na Quaid, and he
Speaker 3: just at the last minute, his friend said, I have
Speaker 3: a ticket to go see Hannibal Burst. Do you want
Speaker 3: to go? Literally last minute, So he decided to go,
Speaker 3: and he went, and he's sitting there kind of fiddling
Speaker 3: with his iPhone, and all of a sudden, he hears
Speaker 3: the name Birthday, the name Bill Cosby, so his ears
Speaker 3: perk up and he thought, okay, Bill Cosby, we're in Philly,
Speaker 3: this might be a little item for me. So he
Speaker 3: picks up his iPhone and starts filming it. And it
Speaker 3: was this routine that apparently birth had been doing on
Speaker 3: and off for months, for about six months, where he's
Speaker 3: talking about Bill Cosby lecturing black people about how to
Speaker 3: behave but you know, meanwhile, he's a rapist. You know,
Speaker 3: I don't drug, you know, so stop lecturing me. And
Speaker 3: he does this whole thing about that, and he says,
Speaker 3: if you don't believe me, Google Bill Cobbs Cosby rapist
Speaker 3: and you'll see it. So the next day, it was
Speaker 3: a Friday, around four pm, Dan does a story and
Speaker 3: they put it up on the video, up on the website,
Speaker 3: and over the weekend, then a BuzzFeed reporter sees it
Speaker 3: on Facebook and she thinks, okay. On Monday, she's like, okay,
Speaker 3: they don't reach out for common I'll reach out to
Speaker 3: both sides for comment and do an aggregated story. So
Speaker 3: she does that, and then Gawker, which had just written
Speaker 3: about the scandal in February with absolutely no reaction, is
Speaker 3: interested in it, so they do an aggregated piece. And
Speaker 3: then the Daily Mail, which is you know, probably picks
Speaker 3: up stories from everywhere, does a piece and it just
Speaker 3: goes It just goes crazy on Twitter, and that, you know,
Speaker 3: to me, that was the biggest difference between two thousand
Speaker 3: and five and twenty fourteen was social media because in
Speaker 3: two thousand and five Cosby could control the media except
Speaker 3: for me. But there was no social media like Facebook
Speaker 3: was in It was still just for college students. There
Speaker 3: was no Twitter, no snapchat. News agencies didn't really have
Speaker 3: good websites, so nothing could go viral. But in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 3: of course, there was Twitter, and that's where it really
Speaker 3: went crazy. And in addition, a bunch of online news
Speaker 3: organizations had sprung up and they just weren't afraid of
Speaker 3: Cosby at all, and they just started writing stories. And
Speaker 3: then Barbara Bowman came forward again into The Daily Mail
Speaker 3: and she's basically like, I tried to tell this story
Speaker 3: ten years ago and nobody would listen. But she goes
Speaker 3: the rounds and she's on CNN and she writes an
Speaker 3: op ed for the Washington Post. And then the first
Speaker 3: new accuser comes forward in November twenty fourteen, and Joan Tarshis,
Speaker 3: and she's at this point, you know, I'm just watching
Speaker 3: it go and this is deja vu all over again.
Speaker 3: I reported all of this in two thousand and five
Speaker 3: and nobody cared. I mean I had like thirty or
Speaker 3: some stories from back then.
Speaker 8: So.
Speaker 3: We were just watching it to see what would happen.
Speaker 3: And then when Joan Tarshes came forward and when Cosby
Speaker 3: start canceling appearances, you know, we kind of jump back
Speaker 3: in again, and you know, it was just astonishing to
Speaker 3: watch unfold.
Speaker 8: Not only did you talk about Joan Tarshi coming forward
Speaker 8: and her experience in the seventies with Bill Cosby. But
Speaker 8: also very interesting a black woman named Julo Allison that
Speaker 8: was a model. Why was she hesitant to come forward?
Speaker 8: What was the issue that she was wrestling with?
Speaker 3: It's the same issue that Beverly Johnson, the model that
Speaker 3: she was the first African American woman on the cover
Speaker 3: of Vogue, and she and she he drugged her and attempted,
Speaker 3: you know, but she was able to escape. They that
Speaker 3: they both struggled with. Beverly ended up writing an essay
Speaker 3: for Vanity Fair about it because of the bringing, you
Speaker 3: know do They didn't want to bring down a black man.
Speaker 3: They thought African American men have enough problems. He's an
Speaker 3: icon in our community, you know, I don't you know?
Speaker 9: Is it right of me to do this?
Speaker 3: And in the end they both decided, yes, we have
Speaker 3: to come forward because the other women who had come
Speaker 3: forward were being eviscerated by Cosby's people. And although the
Speaker 3: media was on board this time in two thousand and five,
Speaker 3: and media was jumping on board to disparage these women
Speaker 3: as well, but that had changed in twenty fourteen, and
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, the media was on board but
Speaker 3: they figured, you know, he's not your typical African American defendant.
Speaker 3: He's wealthy, powerful, privilege, you know, everything that most African
Speaker 3: American defendants are. So they and they really felt like
Speaker 3: they needed to tell their experience to for these other
Speaker 3: women who had come forward who weren't being believed.
Speaker 8: So what happens next.
Speaker 3: So it continues, you know, to unfold the ap The
Speaker 3: Associated Press decides to file a motion to try to
Speaker 3: get some of the court documents unsealed from the from
Speaker 3: the two thousand and five case. And because they figured,
Speaker 3: you know, Kazbi was having pretty much every document sealed
Speaker 3: back then, it was requesting that and the judge was agreed.
Speaker 3: So there were motions that had excerpts from various depositions
Speaker 3: in those filings that had all been sealed. So they
Speaker 3: and it took until almost July before because Cosy's people
Speaker 3: were fighting it for the judge to eventually rule that, yes,
Speaker 3: these depths, that these documents can be unsealed. And his
Speaker 3: rationale was very interesting because you know, Cosby had started
Speaker 3: his whole town hall crusade around the country with this
Speaker 3: pound what was now known as the Pound Cakes Beach
Speaker 3: in DC and May of two thousand and four, and
Speaker 3: which again he was chastising black people, making fun of
Speaker 3: their crazy names and for having their pants hanging around
Speaker 3: around their ankles and all of this. So anyway, and
Speaker 3: then had gone on, even after being accused by Andrea,
Speaker 3: to write a book with album Fussant about, you know,
Speaker 3: lecturing black.
Speaker 9: People how to behave.
Speaker 3: Basically it was called to Blame the Poor tour. That's
Speaker 3: what one critic called his town halls in two and four.
Speaker 3: In two thousand and five, so the judge ruled basically
Speaker 3: that Cosby had Normally these documents would not be public
Speaker 3: because you have the right to privacy. That he ruled
Speaker 3: that Cosby had basically narrowed his right to privacy by
Speaker 3: lecturing and publicly scolding people about these ethical and moral issues,
Speaker 3: and so therefore he had narrowed his own right to privacy.
Speaker 3: So therefore these documents could be unfiled.
Speaker 8: Let's talk about his eventual arrest. You say you were
Speaker 8: caught by surprise to tell us about that.
Speaker 9: Sure, you know.
Speaker 3: It was boy, it was nearly well, it was explosive
Speaker 3: when when those excerpts got released, and then through this
Speaker 3: legal loophole, the new York Times got the whole deposition
Speaker 3: and wrote a really good story about it. And in it,
Speaker 3: you know, Cosby is admitting to giving queludes to women
Speaker 3: he wanted to have sex with. I mean, it was
Speaker 3: really shocking to people, and it forced some of his supporters.
Speaker 9: To walk back their support.
Speaker 3: Because you have to remember, back then, he was he
Speaker 3: even as Burr said, he had a teflon image. He
Speaker 3: was mister family man. He'd written best selling books about
Speaker 3: being a dad and about his childhood. You know, he
Speaker 3: just no whisper of any using any drugs. I mean,
Speaker 3: he was about as clean cut as you could get,
Speaker 3: except for you know, the one affair he admitted to
Speaker 3: having with you know, Autumn Jackson, his mother, so the
Speaker 3: whole other scandal where he got her arrested for extortion
Speaker 3: in blackmail. So anyway, it was really shocking for him
Speaker 3: to be admitting that, and he said he had seven
Speaker 3: prescriptions for coyludes. This is all in the deposition. So
Speaker 3: all of this causes the DA and the new DA
Speaker 3: in Montgomery County, it's a different DA who was Breus
Speaker 3: Castro's first assistant back then to reopen the case. And
Speaker 3: then phill Enquire had a story about that like that September.
Speaker 9: And yeah, I was, I was surprised, like that was.
Speaker 9: I thought maybe there would be other cases that.
Speaker 3: Would come up, but I certainly did not expect Andrea's
Speaker 3: case to come back. It just I thought the statutal
Speaker 3: limitations would have passed a long time ago. But it
Speaker 3: turned out that with what she had said happened to her,
Speaker 3: which was digital penetration, which is it's it's a crime
Speaker 3: called aggravated indecent assault, and the statutal limitations on that
Speaker 3: is twelve years, which was going to be up the
Speaker 3: following January. Like there was a very short window of
Speaker 3: time for them to act on this, so you know,
Speaker 3: they actually the first assistant, Kevin Steele, you know, his boss,
Speaker 3: told him, let's look into reopening this, and he went
Speaker 3: to Andrew's attorneys and it's like, are she going to
Speaker 3: cooperate if we reopened this? And Deloris and that she
Speaker 3: was shocked too, like she really didn't see that one
Speaker 3: coming either, And she had long talks with Andrew about
Speaker 3: it because Andrew had been treated so terribly by Castor
Speaker 3: they were you know, that was would she even be
Speaker 3: willing to put herself through that again, but Andrew agreed
Speaker 3: because it was a different DA and she really had felt,
Speaker 3: as it came out later in her testimony, that you know,
Speaker 3: it is bad that the justice had been had. Yes,
Speaker 3: she'd gotten a settlement of the lawsuit, but that's not justice,
Speaker 3: that's a that's a totally different thing. But Castor in
Speaker 3: the meantime, had decided to run for office to get
Speaker 3: his old job back. He had decided to run for DA.
Speaker 3: So he was up against Steel that fall, and the
Speaker 3: Cosby case came up in the ads, and but Kevin
Speaker 3: Steele ended up winning. And actually, but what happened was
Speaker 3: that Bruce Caster made more disparaging comments about Andrea he
Speaker 3: put on his public Facebook page about her inconsistent statements
Speaker 3: and a lot of things to the point where Andrew's
Speaker 3: at turn. He sent the letter saying basically, publicly apologize
Speaker 3: or you know, retract those statements, or we will sue
Speaker 3: you for defamation. And he refused to do it, and
Speaker 3: in fact made more comments to the Philadelphia in Choir
Speaker 3: that we're disparaging about her. So the week before the election,
Speaker 3: Andrea filed a defamation lawsuit against him, and then Kevin
Speaker 3: Steel won, and then you know Cosby was arrested on
Speaker 3: December thirtieth.
Speaker 8: Yes, take us to the trial itself and Andrea's testimony
Speaker 8: and also her mother, Jianna's testimony. Tell us a little
Speaker 8: bit about, as you write in the book, a little
Speaker 8: bit about the beginning of this trial and the testimony
Speaker 8: of Andrea Injianna.
Speaker 3: Okay, at this point, you know sixty four women, by
Speaker 3: my account, had where sixty three had come forward to
Speaker 3: say Cosby had done or attempted to do similar things
Speaker 3: to them as to what he did to Andrea. But
Speaker 3: did judge only allowed one of them.
Speaker 9: To testify at this first trial.
Speaker 3: The prosecution had asked for thirteen to be able to testify.
Speaker 3: They're called so called prior bad act witnesses. None of
Speaker 3: them have gone to police or there were no convictions,
Speaker 3: but they're used to show a pattern of behavior. And
Speaker 3: it's up to a judge whether it's allowed in and
Speaker 3: they have to weigh it's a probe of value versus
Speaker 3: its prejudicial value, because it can be very prejudicial to
Speaker 3: a defendant. And in the end, the judge, without explaining
Speaker 3: why I allowed one.
Speaker 9: To testify and her story was pretty.
Speaker 3: Horrifying, and and so Andrey and Giann are told theres
Speaker 3: so and you know, it was the first time you
Speaker 3: heard from her mouth, like it was the first time
Speaker 3: we saw Andrea speak about it. She had never spoken publicly.
Speaker 3: Even at the preliminary hearing. They just read her statements
Speaker 3: a detective did. They did not have her testimony, so
Speaker 3: it was very powerful to hear her speak for the
Speaker 3: first time. And you know, she has a very she's
Speaker 3: kind of a soft voice, but it's firm. She's a
Speaker 3: very calm, gentle person. That's kind of the impression you
Speaker 3: get from her.
Speaker 9: Very polite.
Speaker 3: I mean, she called Cosby mister Cosby even in her
Speaker 3: statements when she's talking about him. But she got very
Speaker 3: and she's not an emotional person, at least outwardly, but
Speaker 3: she got very emotional as she started talking about the
Speaker 3: night this happened and telling what happened to her, and
Speaker 3: she seemed to.
Speaker 9: Fight off tears.
Speaker 3: And her mother, you know, Gianna is just this fierce
Speaker 3: mama bear. You know, she's the mom we all want
Speaker 3: to have.
Speaker 9: Because she just had her daughter's back.
Speaker 3: And some of these you know, some of the women
Speaker 3: were not that fortunate when they tried to tell their
Speaker 3: parents about what happened to them or their mom. The
Speaker 3: mom did not want to hear it, or the mom
Speaker 3: did not want to believe it. So, you know, she
Speaker 3: told her story and they played the tape, and you know,
Speaker 3: she said that Cosby in the first conversation she had
Speaker 3: with him, which was several which was like two and
Speaker 3: a half hours long, Cosby apologized to her and to
Speaker 3: Andrea and that he admitted he was a sick person.
Speaker 3: And but what was kind of gross is he also
Speaker 3: said to Andrew was on the phone. He goes, tell
Speaker 3: her you had an orgasm, Tell mom, Tell your mom
Speaker 3: you had orgasm. And he kept calling Andrew's mom mom,
Speaker 3: and it was just so gross, you know, and Andrey ends
Speaker 3: up hanging up the phone. He's trying to tell her,
Speaker 3: trying to convince her mom this was consensual. But her
Speaker 3: mom also was going, why didn't you call nine one one?
Speaker 3: How did you know she was going to wake up?
Speaker 3: And this becomes a theme, an undercurrent theme in my
Speaker 3: book because that point it's important to raise. It is
Speaker 3: very dangerous to drug someone without their knowledge or consent.
Speaker 3: You don't know what they have in their system, you
Speaker 3: don't know if they could be allergic. To it, you
Speaker 3: don't know, and to drug someone without their consent is
Speaker 3: very dangerous and you know, who knows what could have
Speaker 3: happened if so. You know, also, some of these women
Speaker 3: drove afterward, like Tamar Green and Becky Cooper, another Jane Doe,
Speaker 3: and they're not sure how they were able to even
Speaker 3: drive after taking whatever drug it was that he slipped
Speaker 3: into their drinks that he gave them. So yeah, that
Speaker 3: becomes an undercurrent here too. You know what, what why
Speaker 3: didn't you call that? How did you know they were
Speaker 3: going to wake up? And it's very keep saying it,
Speaker 3: but it is an important point to make. It's very
Speaker 3: dangerous to do this to someone. I didn't find out
Speaker 3: I was allergic to demrol until I got surgery for
Speaker 3: a dog bite many years ago. And when they put
Speaker 3: demroll on me when I was coming out of the surgery,
Speaker 3: I broke out and hived all over my body and
Speaker 3: they had to quickly do an antidote or I would
Speaker 3: have died. I mean, how do you know someone wouldn't
Speaker 3: have that reaction to whatever it is he's putting into
Speaker 3: their drinks. So yeah, that's what That's why Gianna was
Speaker 3: so worried. Too, and that's why she really wanted to
Speaker 3: know what he had given her. And he had told
Speaker 3: her he was going to be gone up to He
Speaker 3: said he was going upstairs to look at his prescription
Speaker 3: bottles and he'd come down and tell her what it was.
Speaker 3: Then he comes back down and says, oh, I can't
Speaker 3: read it. I will write it down on a piece
Speaker 3: of paper and I will send it to you. So
Speaker 3: in the second phone call that Andrew that Gianna taped,
Speaker 3: she's trying to get out of him what did you
Speaker 3: give my daughter? And she's like did you She's like,
Speaker 3: did you send that to me? Are you going to
Speaker 3: send it to me? He's like no, no, no, and he
Speaker 3: tries to switch the subject, like, let's talk He said,
Speaker 3: Andrew wants to go back to school. Let's talk about
Speaker 3: some kind of educational trust. I'm willing to pay for
Speaker 3: that if she gets certain grades. And Gianna just ignores it.
Speaker 3: She just keeps pressing them, what did you give my daughter?
Speaker 3: What did you give my daughter? And he won't answer it.
Speaker 3: And then after they get off the phone, and next
Speaker 3: thing you know, like Marty Singer's calling and he's trying
Speaker 3: to get them to agree to come to Miami where
Speaker 3: to see him, you know, to meet with him in
Speaker 3: Miami so they can discuss this educational trust. And of course,
Speaker 3: you know, they don't agree to that, but then Marty
Speaker 3: Singer calls to set it up, and then someone from
Speaker 3: his agent, from William Morris calls to talk about it.
Speaker 3: And you know, of course, by this time, Indura was
Speaker 3: already represented by Dolores and bebe in no way in
Speaker 3: hell were they going to let her go to Miami,
Speaker 3: they thought, and that Delors testified to this many years
Speaker 3: later that they thought that he was setting her up,
Speaker 3: just like with Autumn Jackson, where she had come to
Speaker 3: New York and all of a sudden she's arrested for
Speaker 3: bribery and extortion. They thought, anyway, that whole trip was
Speaker 3: just to set her up for her to be arrested
Speaker 3: like Autumn Jackson was.
Speaker 8: You have a scene in here where prosecutor fed and
Speaker 8: talks about the drugging of a woman and Cosby's behavior
Speaker 8: at court at trial, tell us what he was doing
Speaker 8: that prompted her to fly and into a rage in.
Speaker 9: Her Yeah, yeah, it was her. It was this well.
Speaker 3: Throughout the first trial, he was coming in and out
Speaker 3: doing Hey, Hey, Hey, fat Albert to the crowds. And
Speaker 3: I was sitting in the hall once when he did
Speaker 3: this whole common routine because one of the sheriffs was
Speaker 3: telling people not to pull out their cell phones when
Speaker 3: he was going by because they didn't want them snapping
Speaker 3: pictures of them. And I guess someone he looked like
Speaker 3: someone was, so he went hey. And Cosby was being
Speaker 3: walked with Andrew White, a spokesperson, and he cowers down,
Speaker 3: does this whole dramatic thing, you know, like he's, oh,
Speaker 3: oh my god, I won't do anything. So he was
Speaker 3: clowning around a lot, and he was laughing or smiling
Speaker 3: during testimony. And then in the closing arguments of the
Speaker 3: second trial, Chris then was giving her very emotional, passionate
Speaker 3: closing argument and she looks over and she sees Cosby,
Speaker 3: which she thinks he's laughing, and she flies across the
Speaker 3: room and she goes, sexual assault isn't funny. Drugging and
Speaker 3: sexual assaulting a woe without her consent isn't funny, and
Speaker 3: she just kind of blasts them, and it was. It
Speaker 3: was a very powerful moment.
Speaker 8: You talk about as opposed to the first trial, the
Speaker 8: second trial had the other accusers to testify tell us
Speaker 8: about that testimony in the second trial.
Speaker 3: Sure, so there was a mistrial after fifty two hours
Speaker 3: of deliberations for the first trial in June of twenty seventeen,
Speaker 3: and then in between Cosby.
Speaker 9: Has cycled through a lot of lawyers.
Speaker 3: So then the second trial was supposed to be in November,
Speaker 3: but it got pushed back to the next April because
Speaker 3: Cosby switched attorneys again. I mean, he's had like twenty
Speaker 3: four to twenty five attorneys throughout this. So in the meantime,
Speaker 3: the me too movement had sprung up, not that it
Speaker 3: has anything to do with the case, but it did.
Speaker 3: And then this time the prosecution asked for nineteen women
Speaker 3: to be able to testify, and the judge and there
Speaker 3: had been a ruling on one of a certain court
Speaker 3: case that clearly made the judge feel more comfortable allowing
Speaker 3: five women to testify this time. So that's what happened
Speaker 3: is five other accusers were allowed to testify, and the
Speaker 3: prosecution used a different strategy the second time. They put
Speaker 3: the sexual assault expert on first, because they had, you know,
Speaker 3: talked to the jurors from the first trial. They had
Speaker 3: looked at their own strategies, and they knew, you know,
Speaker 3: obviously if they got a mistrial, they needed to do
Speaker 3: it better this second time. And they really did so
Speaker 3: because in the first trial, they put their sexual assault
Speaker 3: expert on much later in the trial, and well after
Speaker 3: the other women had testified, after Andrew had testified, after
Speaker 3: you know, everyone had testified, and so it seemed clear
Speaker 3: that those jurors struggled with they didn't understand certain rape
Speaker 3: victims behaviors. So they put the sexual assault expert on person.
Speaker 3: It was a different one this time, and basically she
Speaker 3: went through and debunked rape myth after rape myths. She
Speaker 3: was an excellent witness. She's actually been hired by the
Speaker 3: prosecution in the Harvey Weinstein case now.
Speaker 9: Too for that trial.
Speaker 3: And she just you know, said, it is the norm
Speaker 3: for you know, rape victims to delay reporting, that it's
Speaker 3: not even it's the norm for them not to go
Speaker 3: to police, That it is the most underreported violent crime.
Speaker 3: That eighty five percent of sexual assaults are committed by
Speaker 3: someone the victim knows only fifteen percent, or strangers. That
Speaker 3: in those cases it's the norm for them to sometimes
Speaker 3: keep in touch with them they're trying to make sense
Speaker 3: of them. It's the norm to not fight back. Just
Speaker 3: all of this victim behavior that might not make sense
Speaker 3: to a person who didn't know someone who had been
Speaker 3: sexually assaulted. That they have inconsistencies in their stories because
Speaker 3: memory comes back to them in patches. It's not a
Speaker 3: linear thing that they at first sometimes can't even tell
Speaker 3: it literally linearly, and especially when there's drugs involved. So
Speaker 3: all of these things that were being used to criticize
Speaker 3: Andrea in the first trial, she was explaining from the
Speaker 3: beginning and at the very beginning of the trial, and
Speaker 3: then it was you know, one, two, three, four, five,
Speaker 3: the five women and then Andrea and also you know,
Speaker 3: Cosby had seven attorneys at this second trial, and they
Speaker 3: adopted this aggress They were even more aggressive than Brian
Speaker 3: mcmonagall wasn't the first one, and like Mezziro, who had
Speaker 3: gotten Michael Jackson successfully acquitted of molestation charges, was the
Speaker 3: attorney and he was very aggressive with all of the women.
Speaker 3: In fact, at one point, Janie Baker Kinney is being
Speaker 3: questioned by him and she looks at him and she goes,
Speaker 3: are you rolling your eyes at me? And he says yes,
Speaker 3: I am I mean. And Judith Reagan of who was
Speaker 3: there to support model Janie Dickinson's story about why she
Speaker 3: didn't include the rape in her two thousand and two memoir,
Speaker 3: she was so furious by the time she got I
Speaker 3: have to stand about the way they treated her that
Speaker 3: her rep called me afterward and I ended up writing
Speaker 3: doing a separate interviewing story with her for The Daily
Speaker 3: Beast because she just was just so mad about the disrespectful,
Speaker 3: condescending tone they'd us. And then one of the other women,
Speaker 3: shy Lan who Lasha, who was just fifteen when she
Speaker 3: met Cosby in seventeen when this happened. She's sobbing throughout
Speaker 3: her entire testimony, and she at the end she looks
Speaker 3: over at Cosby and goes and she screams, you remember,
Speaker 3: don't you misster Cosby? And he just smiled. You know,
Speaker 3: it was very very powerful testimony. So then Andrea him,
Speaker 3: and then her mother, and you know, I interviewed the
Speaker 3: jury four person in one of the jurors for this story,
Speaker 3: and you know, I really think that was just a
Speaker 3: very smart strategy by them. But in the end, you know,
Speaker 3: you can convict in Pennsylvania in a sexual sault case
Speaker 3: if you find the victim credible, and they did. They
Speaker 3: found the victim credible. Cosby put up a number of
Speaker 3: his own witnesses. This time. He didn't put up any
Speaker 3: in the first trial, one of whom was a woman
Speaker 3: who said she worked with Andrew at Temple University and
Speaker 3: had shared a room with her on a basketball trip
Speaker 3: and about a year before Andrea went to police and
Speaker 3: that Andrea said she was going to set up someone
Speaker 3: high profile. And Andrea testified that she never shared a
Speaker 3: room when she traveled with women's basketball team, and she
Speaker 3: didn't remember this conversation. And then and then I just
Speaker 3: kept waiting for the smoking gun because the defense had
Speaker 3: made a big deal Andrew White at the fact that
Speaker 3: the judge hadn't allowed this woman, Barbara Jackson, to testify
Speaker 3: at the first trial, so I figured, and then so
Speaker 3: he allowed her in at the second. But so I
Speaker 3: was waiting for the smoking gun, right, there must be
Speaker 3: proof if they shared a room together. There's got to
Speaker 3: be hotel records, because this is a Temple university.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So not only did they not have that, the prosecution
Speaker 3: went back and found records, and they found records for
Speaker 3: her travel with a team in February two thousand and three,
Speaker 3: but not in February two thousand and four when she
Speaker 3: said she traveled with them. And so the jurors when
Speaker 3: they were discussing all this while they were deliberating, some
Speaker 3: of them believed Margot, some didn't. So that's why one
Speaker 3: of the things they asked to be read back to
Speaker 3: them was her testimony. And once they heard her testimony again,
Speaker 3: they all agreed that she you know, they found her
Speaker 3: not credible. They sort of put a check mark back
Speaker 3: by her note you know, she's not credible. And while
Speaker 3: they found Andrea credible and they said she wouldn't look
Speaker 3: at them, that Margot never looked at them either while
Speaker 3: she was testifying, which is, you know, not good.
Speaker 8: You also talk about Jennie Dickinson. Why the details of
Speaker 8: her assault were not included in the in her biography
Speaker 8: was because of the publisher, right, Is that correct?
Speaker 9: Exactly?
Speaker 3: And that's why Judith Reagan was there as a supporting
Speaker 3: witness and her ghost writer I spoke with as well.
Speaker 3: He also said the same thing, but they basically had
Speaker 3: she wanted it in the version of it that Judith
Speaker 3: had to tell her, No, we can't. You know, our
Speaker 3: legal won't allow it Cosby's known as being very litigious.
Speaker 3: So they had they took it out and they had
Speaker 3: it portrayed very differently in the memoir, which is what
Speaker 3: janus and they said. Janie was very upset at the time,
Speaker 3: like she really wanted to include it in the book,
Speaker 3: and she was really emotional and distraught over the decision
Speaker 3: not to include it, but that they you know, because
Speaker 3: and then of course she got hammered about that by
Speaker 3: Mezzaro when she was cross examined.
Speaker 8: The details of her civil suit were revealed at the
Speaker 8: second trial as well, and they were allowed.
Speaker 3: Why was that, Yes, it was for the first time
Speaker 3: we became a We found out how much she got
Speaker 3: in her settlement, and it was three point three eight million,
Speaker 3: which the prosecution revealed. You know, the defense wanted in
Speaker 3: because a key part of their strategy was to say that,
Speaker 3: you know, Andrea was a con artist, that she just
Speaker 3: wanted money and so she made up these allegations and
Speaker 3: so forth. But you know, the flaw in that argument,
Speaker 3: in my view, is that it didn't it doesn't make
Speaker 3: sense to use that strategy all these years later, because
Speaker 3: she got her money in two thousand and six. So
Speaker 3: if she if that is why, you know, she made
Speaker 3: up these allegations, then why is she here and why
Speaker 3: is she subjecting herself to not one trial but too
Speaker 3: you know, the logic and it was kind of flawed,
Speaker 3: but that was the strategy he had used in the
Speaker 3: Michael Jackson case that was very successful. So that that's
Speaker 3: why they wanted it in. But you know, it also
Speaker 3: favored the prosecution because it shows that this was just
Speaker 3: not you know, nuisance money. This wasn't one hundred thousand
Speaker 3: dollars keep your mouth shut money. This was a lot
Speaker 3: of money to give to somebody if you say you
Speaker 3: didn't do anything. And then in the charging you know,
Speaker 3: in the affidavit when Cosby was arrested, they also you know,
Speaker 3: pointed out that, you know, people don't give this innocent
Speaker 3: people don't a lot of times don't give this amount
Speaker 3: of money either, you know, Right, So it was it
Speaker 3: was it was powerful to learn the amount, and it was,
Speaker 3: but it was it was a double edged sword. It
Speaker 3: could either work for or against the prosecution.
Speaker 8: What was your sense of the trial and its outcome?
Speaker 8: When the jury went to deliberation at the end of
Speaker 8: the trial, what was your sense, Not that you would
Speaker 8: you could say for certain, but what was your sense
Speaker 8: on how the case had been prosecuted and how the
Speaker 8: jury had responded to that information? From everything you saw
Speaker 8: and heard, what did you think?
Speaker 3: I thought? You know, this jury, this was the first jury,
Speaker 3: was from Allegheny County, which is around Pittsburgh, because Cosby
Speaker 3: had wanted an out of town jury, and it's just
Speaker 3: a less affluent area, you know, more high school educated
Speaker 3: and stuff. Not to disparage it, and I have family
Speaker 3: from there. But Cosby agreed not to ask for an
Speaker 3: out oftown jury for a second trial in order to
Speaker 3: get the delay he got, you know, so he could
Speaker 3: get his new attorneys up to speed. So it was
Speaker 3: a Montgomery County jury, which is right outside of Philly,
Speaker 3: and it's the wealthiest county in Pennsylvania. I mean a
Speaker 3: jury four person is vice president of cybersecurity for an
Speaker 3: international emergency management firm. Another one worked for OSHA, another
Speaker 3: one was president of a bank. I mean, it was
Speaker 3: a very sophisticated jury because this is tough stuff. You know,
Speaker 3: I had never really thought about this before. But no
Speaker 3: one tells a jury how to deliberate. I mean they're
Speaker 3: given guidelines, the judgisms and instructions, but no one says,
Speaker 3: you go back in the room, you sit down, you
Speaker 3: all talk, you know, you take a vote. Once they're
Speaker 3: in the room. It's up to them about how they
Speaker 3: do it. So I totally understand why the first jury,
Speaker 3: you know, had it was so contentious. In fact, it
Speaker 3: was like there was screaming and yelling coming from there.
Speaker 3: Apparently one juror punched a wall in the first tile.
Speaker 3: Another one who had quit smoking took up smoking again.
Speaker 3: It was it was a very emotional, contentious jury, and
Speaker 3: I have a feeling they voted more than once based
Speaker 3: on some of.
Speaker 9: The interviews I saw.
Speaker 3: But this one was they were very methodical and they
Speaker 3: kind of struck me from the get go. Like the
Speaker 3: Sandusky jury in the Jerry Sandusky case, I had covered
Speaker 3: that case, and that jury was very thoughtful and methodical.
Speaker 3: They had ten victims and ten sets of charges to
Speaker 3: go through, and they took like twelve fourteen hours, but
Speaker 3: they did it and their decisions made sense. I mean,
Speaker 3: they the two the only two charges he wasn't convicted
Speaker 3: of where the were for the ones where the one
Speaker 3: victim didn't testify so I got that sense. So I thought, okay,
Speaker 3: maybe a conviction on one count, but there were three counts,
Speaker 3: but it was just so hard to tell. It's you know, again,
Speaker 3: it's a tough thing to be a juror, and it's
Speaker 3: a tough thing to convict an eighty one year old man.
Speaker 3: And you know, the Cosby's team had done their best
Speaker 3: to disparage the women who came forward, and it seemed
Speaker 3: to backfire a little bit because I during closing arguments,
Speaker 3: I actually saw a couple of the jurors wins during
Speaker 3: Cosby's defense team's closing arguments, so I, you know, I
Speaker 3: guess I was thinking maybe maybe a conviction on one.
Speaker 3: I was completely shocked when it was a conviction on
Speaker 3: all three and they didn't do that.
Speaker 9: I thought that a tribute.
Speaker 3: No, no, I mean, it was like twelve fourteen hours.
Speaker 3: They asked to have read back Margot Jackson's testimony, and
Speaker 3: then they wanted to rehear some of cosby deposition testimony,
Speaker 3: and that was it. While the first jury, you know,
Speaker 3: basically had the whole trial read back to them, and
Speaker 3: I had seen this jury. They were all taking copious notes,
Speaker 3: which they're allowed to do. During the trial too, so
Speaker 3: they and they're set. You know, these were sequestered jurors too,
Speaker 3: and they were sequestered much longer than the other jury
Speaker 3: because this went on for two and a half almost
Speaker 3: three weeks. Well, the first trial was over in a week.
Speaker 3: In fact, the deliberations almost lasted longer than the trial did. So,
Speaker 3: but they were very methodical about the way they went
Speaker 3: about it, and it showed and they you know, they
Speaker 3: talked through everything and if they disagreed, you know, they
Speaker 3: went back in to hear it. It sounded like a
Speaker 3: really good It's like the jury pool you wish you'd
Speaker 3: get if anything ever happens to you, whether or not
Speaker 3: they can FicT you. I mean, they were very thoughtful
Speaker 3: and very methodical about it. It was not an emotional decision.
Speaker 3: It was like basically it really revolved when you boil
Speaker 3: it down to the fact that they believed Andrea. What
Speaker 3: were the three charge they found her credible?
Speaker 8: What were the three charges that he was found guilt?
Speaker 3: There were three counts of agg aggregated aggravated indecent assault,
Speaker 3: one without her consent, one well drugged, one well unconscious.
Speaker 8: Now they have to wait for sentencing. What was the
Speaker 8: sentencing and what was the reaction from the media and
Speaker 8: from the accusers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I and again, you know, this case continued to
Speaker 3: surprise me. I knew Cosby was going to do his
Speaker 3: best to try to stay out of jail while he
Speaker 3: was I know he's going to appeal his conviction and
Speaker 3: appeal his sentencing, whatever it was, because that's how he is.
Speaker 3: He has fought every step of the way on this
Speaker 3: and I knew he would make a move to be
Speaker 3: out on bail while doing all these appeals, and that
Speaker 3: process couldn't start to after sentencing. But you know, he
Speaker 3: was sentenced to jail to prison. The judge sentenced him
Speaker 3: to three to ten years in prison, which was a
Speaker 3: little above the minimum, and he was to go directly
Speaker 3: to jail. He tried to get emotion to allow him
Speaker 3: to stay out on bail, but the judge didn't allow
Speaker 3: and apparently when it's over a two year sentence, it's
Speaker 3: the norm not to let someone stay out on bail
Speaker 3: while they're appealing. And his sentence was three to ten years,
Speaker 3: so he's eligible for parole at three years. But that's
Speaker 3: just you know, the victims have a say in that.
Speaker 3: First of all, and that's assuming he you know, you
Speaker 3: have to show remorse and really admit responsibility for what
Speaker 3: you did. And he's still maintaining that this was a
Speaker 3: consensual relationship, that it was not sexual assault. So you know,
Speaker 3: I just don't see him making bail or making.
Speaker 9: Parole at three years.
Speaker 3: And he's appealing, but these these appeals take years as well,
Speaker 3: and this judge has a reputation for rarely being overturned
Speaker 3: on appeal, so it's not a slam dunk that he's
Speaker 3: going to get a new trial or get a new sentencing.
Speaker 3: I mean, this judge is very careful and he has
Speaker 3: a great reputation, and like I said, he rarely gets
Speaker 3: overturned on appeal. But that's clearly what they're hoping for.
Speaker 8: What about the issue of him being designated to sexually
Speaker 8: violent predator.
Speaker 3: Right, that was that was a piece of this as well,
Speaker 3: and he was designated one in the disorder he was
Speaker 3: diagnosed with is basically having liking to have sex with
Speaker 3: sex with an unconscious person, And this just means he
Speaker 3: has to do mandatory counseling if if he gets out,
Speaker 3: he's got to make sure his whereabouts are reported to
Speaker 3: the Pennsylvania State Police, so they can notify the victims.
Speaker 3: So it's you know, it has those type of requirements
Speaker 3: that don't I don't know, mean a lot when he's incarcerated,
Speaker 3: but certainly mean a lot if he gets out, because
Speaker 3: he has you know, his face would be on like
Speaker 3: the Megan's Law website. You know, so people in the
Speaker 3: area know where he lives, and you know he still
Speaker 3: has the home in Cheltenham, right outside Philly. I don't
Speaker 3: he'd have to ask permission if he wanted to go
Speaker 3: to another state, like where his wife lives up in Massachusetts.
Speaker 3: So it's it's just a lot of red tape for him.
Speaker 8: What has what's Andrea's life look like? Now? Since this
Speaker 8: what told us about Andrea?
Speaker 3: So she did finish her go to massage school and
Speaker 3: become a missus. She works a lot with cancer patients
Speaker 3: for her clients, or people with Parkinson's or people with Seeson,
Speaker 3: and she you know, she has a very good life.
Speaker 3: But as she you know, her victim impact statement she's
Speaker 3: in sorted it end of the record. She did not
Speaker 3: read it at sentencing, and I don't blame her. I
Speaker 3: don't know if her reason was, like she didn't want
Speaker 3: Cosby to see her bear her soul like that, and
Speaker 3: I wouldn't blame her.
Speaker 9: But you know, we all got copies of it. It
Speaker 9: was really powerful. It was sad.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, her life has been on hold
Speaker 3: during this time, and she she's not married, she has
Speaker 3: not you know, I'd gotten a close relationship, She's close
Speaker 3: with her family and her dogs. But this, you know,
Speaker 3: really really changed who she was. And I hope now,
Speaker 3: as I write in there, that you know now that
Speaker 3: she got this kind of closure and a verdict and
Speaker 3: sort of like we believe you finally from at least
Speaker 3: a jury, that she can you know, move on with
Speaker 3: her life. And she wants to, I think, help other
Speaker 3: sexual assault survivors in any way she can and you know,
Speaker 3: work on things like that in addition to her job
Speaker 3: as a messus. And she wants to know her life
Speaker 3: has sort of been on this hold for so many
Speaker 3: years and hopefully now it's going to be moving forward again.
Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, Now, just before I let you go, obviously
Speaker 8: there's the Bill Cosby legacy. How much of that Bill
Speaker 8: Cosby legacy has been tarnished? What has been taken away?
Speaker 8: Some of the things that tell us just the state
Speaker 8: of his legacy, I.
Speaker 3: Can say, well, I mean you can't. A lot of
Speaker 3: his you know, awards have been stripped away, a lot
Speaker 3: of his honorary degrees have been taken from him. He's
Speaker 3: you know, had a lot of that taken from him.
Speaker 3: But you can't. You can't take away all the millions
Speaker 3: he's donated, millions to spell in college, he's donated you know,
Speaker 3: a lot to a lot of different universities and so forth.
Speaker 3: You can't take away from him the good he's done.
Speaker 3: But you have to counteract that and acknowledge and understand
Speaker 3: what else he was doing during that during that time period.
Speaker 3: I mean, it almost became a cover for him that
Speaker 3: allowed him to continue.
Speaker 9: For so long because he was this great guy.
Speaker 3: Doing such great things. It's what allows like the Catholic
Speaker 3: priests to continue doing what they're doing, or in the
Speaker 3: Boy Scouts, or Jerry Sandusky, you know, the Penn State
Speaker 3: defensive coach who founded a charity for at risk boys
Speaker 3: and then preyed upon many of them. They were many
Speaker 3: of his victims. So you just have to put it
Speaker 3: in the context of his whole life. Just because he
Speaker 3: did good things doesn't mean he's a good person, and
Speaker 3: just because he did bad things doesn't mean he's a
Speaker 3: bad person. You have to make your own decisions about
Speaker 3: what you think about it. And that's why I encourage
Speaker 3: people to read the book, because you know, you get
Speaker 3: only get bits and pieces of these stories in the news,
Speaker 3: and I thought having it all in one place for
Speaker 3: people to see it and read it and kind of
Speaker 3: understand it, and it's kind of you can be the
Speaker 3: pattern was important for people because there are still a
Speaker 3: lot of people who you know, do not want to
Speaker 3: believe these women. And none of the women knew each other.
Speaker 3: I mean, they would have had to. I don't know
Speaker 3: how could be a conspiracy when they're all telling childly
Speaker 3: similar stories that they told other people along the way,
Speaker 3: long before they came forward publicly, and they didn't know
Speaker 3: each other. So I don't know how you explain that
Speaker 3: or all of them lying and why. I mean, it's
Speaker 3: not exactly a badge of honor to be known as
Speaker 3: a rape victim in society, and who wants to be
Speaker 3: famous for that. They are the only things some of
Speaker 3: the women have used the platform this gave them for
Speaker 3: is to get statutal limitations laws eliminated or extended in
Speaker 3: three different states. But they still you know, you almost
Speaker 3: still get tired and feathered when you come forward with
Speaker 3: allegations against this, especially when it's against a powerful, beloved
Speaker 3: person like Bill Cosby.
Speaker 8: Well, it's evidence through your your tenacity on this case
Speaker 8: and always always the accusers, Amanda, pardon me, Andrea Tamara
Speaker 8: and all the other twelve accusers, thirteen accusers. I want
Speaker 8: to applaud you for tenacity on this case and your
Speaker 8: remarkable book, Chasing Cosby the Downfall of America's Dad. I
Speaker 8: want to thank you very much, Nicole Yse and z
Speaker 8: Egan for this again remarkable book, and I want to
Speaker 8: applaud you for your tenacity sticking to this and this
Speaker 8: remarkable book as a result.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 8: I want to thank you very much and you have
Speaker 8: a great evening.
Speaker 3: Good night, Okay, thanks you too. Bye,